Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Natalie Finn parents brought to justice for starving, torturing, killing teen daughter

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Natalie Finn parents brought to justice for starving, torturing, killing teen daughter · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:07
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph
0:10
Speaker 1: Channel one two. I just felt so something wasn't right.
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Speaker 1: The more details that come out, unfortunately, I'm not surprised
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Speaker 1: by them, but I am absolutely sickened by them. They
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Speaker 1: call what happened next door a house of horrors, but
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Speaker 1: I just can't imagine someone treating their children like this.
0:31
Speaker 1: This case involves the family that has many layers of colections,
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Speaker 1: many moving parts. For Nataline or siblings, there was no
0:42
Speaker 1: place like home because for Nataline or siblings, home was
0:46
Speaker 1: a place of fear, confinement, torture, truly a mother from hell.
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Speaker 1: When you hear this story, it is going to make
1:01
Speaker 1: your toes curl. I am so distraught that this happened
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Speaker 1: under the noses of neighbors, teachers, authorities, and now a
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Speaker 1: young girl is dead. Natalie Natalie, a young girl found
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Speaker 1: dead in the floor at whose hands? Mommy's listen, how
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Speaker 1: do I v and her? And they were doing chest compressions, um,
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Speaker 1: and then we just saw them blowed her in the
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Speaker 1: back of the ambulance and drive away. I'm Nancy Grays,
1:45
Speaker 1: this is crime Stories. We want justice. The adoptive mother
1:53
Speaker 1: of a teen girl now at the center of a controversy.
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Speaker 1: A teen girl who weighed just eighty five pounds. My
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Speaker 1: ten year old daughter weighs more than that. This girl
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Speaker 1: starved dead. Her name Natalie. Natalie was found languishing on
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Speaker 1: a linoleum floor, wearing nothing but an adult diaper. On
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Speaker 1: this cold linoleum floor, she was lying in her own
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Speaker 1: urine and excrement, weighing a little over eighty pounds, wearing
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Speaker 1: nothing but an adult diaper, two weeks to even ask
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Speaker 1: for food. The house smells very putrid of ammonia and feces.
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Speaker 1: It was a very overwhelming smell. She was very thin,
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Speaker 1: very frail um you could see her bones sticking out,
3:03
Speaker 1: and she was only wearing what appeared to be adult depends.
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Speaker 1: Natalie was somewhat difficult in that she appeared very very dehydrated,
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Speaker 1: emaciated in appearance, and which makes it very difficult um
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Speaker 1: to start I v S. We basically tried everything that
3:21
Speaker 1: we could to try to save her, but she was
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Speaker 1: not able to be saved. How did this go so
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Speaker 1: horribly horribly wrong? When you look at the mother, Nicole thin,
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Speaker 1: she seems like any soccer mom you might see in
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Speaker 1: the pickup line at school, got her long brunette hair
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Speaker 1: pulled back in a ponytail, wearing an updated version of eyeglasses.
4:00
Speaker 1: Her children kept in horrific, horrific conditions. Joining me is
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Speaker 1: John Limley, Crime Stories, investigative reporter, forensic psychiatrist, Dr Daniel Bober,
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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert and lawyer and child advocate
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Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcop. You know, John Limley. When I look at
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Speaker 1: their home, it's lovely. Has got a beautiful hardwood tree
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Speaker 1: in the front yard, a yard of perfectly manufacured green grass,
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Speaker 1: A brick home in the shade of this big seemingly
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Speaker 1: oak tree, white car pulled in the driveway, a bicycle
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Speaker 1: there to signify children live there. The shrubs are all tidy,
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Speaker 1: everything in order, But little do we know, this des
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Speaker 1: Moine home was a house of horrors. This young girl
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Speaker 1: beg for food, scrounging for food in the neighborhood, and
5:05
Speaker 1: nobody did anything, begging neighbors for just a morsel to eat. Listen,
5:13
Speaker 1: she asked for some shoes, some flip flops, um and
5:17
Speaker 1: then for some shoes for older brother. So we gave
5:19
Speaker 1: that tour. And then she had asked her five dollars
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Speaker 1: with never twin dollars, just money for food and socks
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Speaker 1: and clothes. It sounds like they just weren't being provided
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Speaker 1: for and they weren't going to people that they trusted
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Speaker 1: to get help. Natalie had been quote lying in her
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Speaker 1: own waste for some time when she's found no furniture
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Speaker 1: in the bedroom. Nothing, It was completely empty. The only
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Speaker 1: thing that was in there was the linolium floor in
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Speaker 1: the walls. She had told me the room didn't have
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Speaker 1: any furniture in there because they had recently decided to
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Speaker 1: replace the flooring because the kids in that room had
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Speaker 1: been urinating and defecating in there and ruined the flooring.
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Speaker 1: The house overrun by cats and kittens, whose feces were
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Speaker 1: scattered everywhere, the animals roaming freely throughout the home. Heavily
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Speaker 1: soaked blankets heavily soaked with urine covered the floor where
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Speaker 1: Natalie shared a room with two other siblings. Dog kennels
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Speaker 1: inside the residents. How could this be happening literally next door?
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Speaker 1: Let's start with the nine one one call what brought
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Speaker 1: police to the home John Limley. Officers and medics went
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Speaker 1: to the house after that call, Natalie was found not
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Speaker 1: breathing and unresponsive Nicole Fan. The mother told investigators she
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Speaker 1: had attempted CPR on her daughter after a younger sibling
7:02
Speaker 1: found Natalie on her back with vomit coming out of
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Speaker 1: her mouth. This was around seven pm the night before.
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Speaker 1: The mother claimed that Natalie and her siblings woke up
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Speaker 1: around nine thirty that morning, and that one of her
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Speaker 1: younger sisters gave Natalie a peanut butter smoothie. And this
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Speaker 1: is when police and medics discovered Natalie. She was wearing
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Speaker 1: an adult diaper, nothing but this diaper, lying on the
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Speaker 1: linoleum floor of her bed or bare bedroom. One of
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Speaker 1: the officers said that the sixteen year old quote appeared
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Speaker 1: to have been lying there in her own waist for
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Speaker 1: quite some time. She was at such a point she
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Speaker 1: couldn't even hold up to eat. The mother reportedly saying
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Speaker 1: words to the effect well, if you won't get up
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Speaker 1: in eight I'm not giving you any more food. Her
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Speaker 1: siblings little children were trying to feed her water and
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Speaker 1: yogurt to keep her live. I mean, just the thought
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Speaker 1: of this story has made so incredibly distraught, and the
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Speaker 1: thought that it could have been stopped two Joseph Scott Morgan,
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Speaker 1: forensics expert death scene investigator. When you are starved to
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Speaker 1: a point you have cardiac arrest, how long have you
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Speaker 1: been starving it? It doesn't take as long as people think.
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Speaker 1: Um uh, you know. I think that the problem with
8:41
Speaker 1: this case is that she was fed intermittently and over
8:51
Speaker 1: period of time, it increased the amount of time that
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Speaker 1: it took for her to You have people that are
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Speaker 1: trying to feed her. We've got the story of the
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Speaker 1: peanut butter smoothie, We've got the yogurt, We've got other
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Speaker 1: things that are coming down the track. It's not like
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Speaker 1: she was just held in place, because it would generally
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Speaker 1: take about thirty days to completely starve an individual to death.
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Speaker 1: But Nancy, the horror of this is the fact that
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Speaker 1: she languished for even a longer period of time because
9:27
Speaker 1: she was periodically given food, just enough sustenance to make
9:32
Speaker 1: it through. We need about calories a day, and my
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Speaker 1: thought is is that she was getting well under that,
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Speaker 1: and that's just a recommended just just to stay above
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Speaker 1: starvation level. They just kept this girl's ribs were sticking
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Speaker 1: through her skin. She was extremely underway and suffering from
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Speaker 1: bed when medic find her now. Wait, wait a minute,
10:02
Speaker 1: Wait a minute. Bed sores. That means you've been lying
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Speaker 1: there for so long that your skin has developed its
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Speaker 1: own spontaneous sores. That's how long this child had been
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Speaker 1: lying on that linoleum floor in urine and feces, unable
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Speaker 1: to move or stand, to the point her little brothers
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Speaker 1: and sisters were trying to feed her water and yogurt
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Speaker 1: just before she died. I mean, it's horrific denial of
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Speaker 1: critical care, dead at that young age from cardiac arrest.
10:45
Speaker 1: I asked earlier, who called nine one one? Actually, Willcott,
10:49
Speaker 1: the brother called nine one one. I want you to
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Speaker 1: hear this. My mom, the brother call, not the mother,
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Speaker 1: her brother, Nancy. This is a case of sadistic torture
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Speaker 1: by the mother. This is not only starvation of a child.
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Speaker 1: And I'm not surprised that the mother didn't call. Why
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Speaker 1: would she call. She's torturing and murdering her child. You
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Speaker 1: know what's really driving me crazy is that defacts Department
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Speaker 1: of Family Children's Services got a report two months before
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Speaker 1: the death from someone in the school reporting that Natalie
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Speaker 1: had not been to school, that there was something horribly
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Speaker 1: wrong in the home. The child service worker goes to
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Speaker 1: the home and leaves the children there. They appeared to
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Speaker 1: be small children in general, small statured children, um, but
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Speaker 1: they didn't appear to be under nourished at the time.
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Speaker 1: They didn't have sunken cheeks, sunken eyes, they had short
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Speaker 1: sleeve shirt song. I didn't see any injuries of any
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Speaker 1: kind or any wound. The child service worker leaves them
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Speaker 1: in the home and does nothing. And of course this
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Speaker 1: is prompted the usual. We're going to do something about it. Uh.
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Speaker 1: There was a hearing where the States Senator Matt McCoy
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Speaker 1: from West Des Moines, you know, made a ruck as
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Speaker 1: these children are dying out there, they're falling through the
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Speaker 1: cracks and nobody is doing anything to make sure that
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Speaker 1: DHS is properly staffed. I'm saying, where there's frequency, their severity,
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Speaker 1: and you've got to treat that frequency in in an
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Speaker 1: official policy, like, Okay, we've had four calls on this kid.
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Speaker 1: We better, we better figure out what the heck is
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Speaker 1: going on here. We're gonna protect children and and if
12:50
Speaker 1: they don't like it too bad, they're going to have
12:53
Speaker 1: to go through me to stop me, because I'm not
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Speaker 1: going to move. It absolutely makes me want to on it.
13:00
Speaker 1: There is no place in hell that will be hot
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Speaker 1: enough for the parents of this little girl. And you
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Speaker 1: had two parents that deliberately starved their kids to death.
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Speaker 1: This is an indictment on the Department of Human Services
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Speaker 1: for complete failure. They didn't work the case the way
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Speaker 1: they should have. They were not as persistent about getting
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Speaker 1: into the home. They didn't go out to the home.
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Speaker 1: They didn't take the reports that they received from the
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Speaker 1: school nurse. Seriously, you know, the Iowa Citizens Aid Um
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Speaker 1: Budsman has launched its own investigation. Blah blah blah. The
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Speaker 1: girls dead and they let it happen. I think they
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Speaker 1: should be prosecuted right along with the mother from Hell.
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Speaker 1: I mean, she is definitely Satan's minion. I am telling
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Speaker 1: you that to stand by and see your daughter starving.
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Speaker 1: All the children were starving, but this one starved to
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Speaker 1: death until she went into cardiac arrest. This is also
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Speaker 1: what I know. There's so much evidence to Dr Daniel
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Speaker 1: Bober joining me forensic psychiatrist. What about this mother's evil
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Speaker 1: text messages that police have been able to pull up,
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Speaker 1: where she describes her children as quote worthless and says
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Speaker 1: she can't quote stand them. What mother would say that
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Speaker 1: about her children? Nancy, I mean, she seems to be
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Speaker 1: completely sociopathic. Uh, there's there's really no defense in this
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Speaker 1: case that I see that's gonna work. I mean, there's
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Speaker 1: no insanity defense or diminished capacity. I mean, there's been
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Speaker 1: talk that she suffered from depression and possibly PTSD, but
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Speaker 1: her actions all seemed to be wilful, volitional, and frankly
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Speaker 1: just quite evil. Now wait a minute, Dr Daniel Biberg,
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Speaker 1: there go getting sucked into a phony defense again. You know,
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Speaker 1: you and I have really had it out. Let's talk
15:05
Speaker 1: about what you just brought up. You said that it
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Speaker 1: had been brought up, she had diminished capacity, and she
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Speaker 1: had suffered from post post traumatic stress syndrome. Hold on.
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Speaker 1: The only thing that has come out from her own
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Speaker 1: expert is that the mom had a quote difficult childhood,
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Speaker 1: that she had a quote strained relationship with her parents, now,
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Speaker 1: that she had been depressed in the past, and that
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Speaker 1: she had post traumatic stress because she had an abusive
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Speaker 1: relationship with a boyfriend that ended five years ago. Hello,
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Speaker 1: I want you to hear this. Not wanting to go
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Speaker 1: out around people are not wanting to connect with people.
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Speaker 1: What MS been discussing that relationship was a lot of
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Speaker 1: what in psychology we were referred to as domestic abuse
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Speaker 1: or domestic violence. That chilling behaviors, threatening behaviors. But people
16:03
Speaker 1: with trauma, you see this, were they I want to
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Speaker 1: push everyone out. I call it kind of becoming like
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Speaker 1: a turtle going into your shell. Did that affect Nicole's perception?
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Speaker 1: She would see what's happening, but because of her significant
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Speaker 1: difficulty dealing with emotional stress or distress, she wasn't processing it.
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Speaker 1: She wasn't allowing herself to notice that maybe there's something
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Speaker 1: really bad going on. The children asking to go to
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Speaker 1: the bathroom is more stressful than opening a kennel and
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Speaker 1: taking the dog to the backyard. It's not that she
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Speaker 1: associated and didn't know they're asking it. She didn't know
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Speaker 1: they're asking. Mrs Finn saw Natalie laying on the floor
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Speaker 1: and instructed her children to pick Natalie up. Are you
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Speaker 1: saying Mrs Finn didn't persue e that. Yes, but she
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Speaker 1: thought that was faking. No claims and delusions, no evil
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Speaker 1: spirits floating around, nothing, no motive at all. Doctor Daniel Bober, Yes,
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Speaker 1: dancing I agree with you, there doesn't really seem to
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Speaker 1: be much in this case in the way of diminished capacity.
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Speaker 1: Given her history and given her behavior, it all seems
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Speaker 1: to be quite volitional. You know another thing to Ashley
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Speaker 1: Ashley Willcott, lawyer and child advocate. You know, uh, I
17:33
Speaker 1: look at my children. I really don't think they do
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Speaker 1: anything wrong. Ever, once in a great while, my daughter
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Speaker 1: will sask me okay, which normally I just completely ignored,
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Speaker 1: pretend it didn't happen. Once in a while I will
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Speaker 1: try to banish her to her room, But the crying
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Speaker 1: and the fits, I mean, really it's just not worth it.
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Speaker 1: But when I do, the whole time, Ashley, that I
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Speaker 1: make her go to her room, I'm the one that
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Speaker 1: feels bad about it. She's probably and they're playing with
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Speaker 1: those two little fur balls called guinea pigs and having
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Speaker 1: a fine time. I'm on the outside of her room,
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Speaker 1: feeling like the worst mother in the world. I would
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Speaker 1: never ever, I mean, that's here home, behind closed doors.
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Speaker 1: But what about putting it in a text that your
18:22
Speaker 1: children are quote worthless? That speaks to her her inability
18:27
Speaker 1: to feel compassion or act like most reasonable people act
18:32
Speaker 1: and protect their children. And you've got the protective capacity
18:35
Speaker 1: and the compassion. You hate. When your kids are upset
18:38
Speaker 1: or anything bad has happening, you have to discipline them
18:40
Speaker 1: in any way. That's being a mother, that's being a
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Speaker 1: good mother. This woman was not a mother. I don't
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Speaker 1: care what you call her legally. She was not a mother.
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Speaker 1: She had no compassion, she had no emotion. She she
18:51
Speaker 1: tortured and killed her child. So you can't attribute the
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Speaker 1: proper emotions and care that she should have given a
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Speaker 1: child who was hers to her. She wasn't a mother.
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Speaker 1: She was a killer. What I'm saying also, actually is
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Speaker 1: that you would text them to another person right, so cold,
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Speaker 1: my children are worthless. I can't stand them. I mean
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Speaker 1: it's bad enough that you some parents may resent their children,
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Speaker 1: but to be so resentful you actually talk about it
19:22
Speaker 1: to other people, how much you can't stand them and
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Speaker 1: loathe them and they're worthless. I mean, that's a whole
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Speaker 1: another level. It is mine that you would trash them
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Speaker 1: to other people, it is absolutely, but it's also this
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Speaker 1: It is great evidence for the state to prove this
19:36
Speaker 1: was a hard fail by individuals within the casework system
19:40
Speaker 1: as well as by a system as a whole. And
19:42
Speaker 1: I agree with you. When is someone going to be
19:45
Speaker 1: prosecuted if there's a crime committed when they failed to
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Speaker 1: protect children like these, because those texts are evidence that
19:53
Speaker 1: there were issues and these children needed to be protected. Well,
19:57
Speaker 1: listen to this, Ashley. We now learn from investigators that
20:04
Speaker 1: the mom had the dad nail shut a window of
20:10
Speaker 1: the bedroom because the children were sneaking out to beg
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Speaker 1: for food at a convenience store. The windows were screwed shut.
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Speaker 1: There was a lot of staples from a staple gun
20:25
Speaker 1: on the frame around all both windows where we left off,
20:31
Speaker 1: Ashley Willcott, they had actually nailed the windows shut after
20:36
Speaker 1: the children had gotten out and had gone to a
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Speaker 1: convenience store to beg for food. I mean, my my
20:43
Speaker 1: heart is breaking for this family, for these children, Ashley.
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Speaker 1: And this takes up to the next step of demented, sadistic,
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Speaker 1: And by that I mean it's not just which is
20:53
Speaker 1: bad enough. I'm not going to feed her now. Instead
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Speaker 1: of doing nothing, this mother has actually taken positive steps,
21:03
Speaker 1: not positive that's the wrong word, actual steps to prevent
21:07
Speaker 1: the children from eating. Right. So it's not I'm not
21:10
Speaker 1: going to feed them, it's I'm gonna go to that
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Speaker 1: next level of torture and make sure I take steps
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Speaker 1: to prevent them from finding food. So, not only to
21:20
Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober, m d and forensics psychiatrists, did the
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Speaker 1: mom withhold food. She prevented them by having the windows
21:29
Speaker 1: nailed shut from getting out and begging for food. Why
21:34
Speaker 1: Dr Bouber, well, as Ashley said, you know this is
21:37
Speaker 1: this was not a case where she simply passively denied them.
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Speaker 1: It's actual torture. She prevented them from getting the food,
21:43
Speaker 1: and which indicates a sociopathic personality, someone who feels no
21:48
Speaker 1: connection to living things, her own children and feels absolutely
21:52
Speaker 1: no remorse as they're laying their dying. This child described
21:56
Speaker 1: as outgoing and sweet a neighbors say they had very
22:02
Speaker 1: little interaction with the family. Now we now learn that
22:07
Speaker 1: the Iowa agency responsible never followed up on an actual
22:14
Speaker 1: complaint of a starving child. Child welfare workers have been
22:20
Speaker 1: called to investigate about this team girl who was abused
22:24
Speaker 1: and begging for food five months before the team dies
22:30
Speaker 1: of starvation and cardiac arrest. According to what we have
22:34
Speaker 1: learned in police reports, why is that, John Limley Crime
22:39
Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter, are you telling me that de facts
22:44
Speaker 1: was called out their Children's Services five months before, and
22:47
Speaker 1: they did nothing. There was also a follow up visit
22:50
Speaker 1: in August of just a little over two months before
22:55
Speaker 1: Natalie's death, Police and Child Protective Services visited the Hall
23:00
Speaker 1: home and even noted that Natalie was wasting away, but
23:04
Speaker 1: said in the report and this had to be influenced
23:07
Speaker 1: by Nicole, that she was starving herself. Child Services said
23:12
Speaker 1: there was ample food in the home that she was
23:14
Speaker 1: simply choosing not to eat it. There was plenty of
23:17
Speaker 1: food in the cabinets and the refrigerator, and I believe
23:21
Speaker 1: there was some sort of roast cooking in a profile.
23:24
Speaker 1: A health worker later told colleagues she believed there might
23:27
Speaker 1: be cause for concern in the Finn household, but nothing
23:31
Speaker 1: was done. Cause for concern, Cause for concern. A healthcare
23:37
Speaker 1: workers said there was cause for concern. The neighbor, Becca Gordon,
23:41
Speaker 1: also called authorities and said Natalie had been begging for
23:47
Speaker 1: food and was neglected. She also taught to school officials
23:53
Speaker 1: who contacted health services. Prior, I had been um by
24:00
Speaker 1: Nikki that she would do this, that she would try
24:04
Speaker 1: to get extra food and um that we should limit that.
24:09
Speaker 1: She would say some kind of um concerning things like
24:13
Speaker 1: in order to be fed, I have to do chores.
24:16
Speaker 1: She would be likely to go home and tell her
24:18
Speaker 1: mom about that conversation, and then I would get a
24:21
Speaker 1: response from mom. So it was very confusing to us
24:24
Speaker 1: because we wondered why if that was true, why then
24:30
Speaker 1: the child would go home and tell the person that
24:32
Speaker 1: supposedly was doing this. We were concerned about what we
24:36
Speaker 1: were hearing as far as how she was able to
24:38
Speaker 1: access food in her home and that she seemed to
24:42
Speaker 1: be always hungry. At school, all we heard was negativity,
24:46
Speaker 1: and that is not what we felt we were seeing
24:51
Speaker 1: at school. She was very positive, She was very cheerful,
24:54
Speaker 1: she was very compliant, She was heavy, go lucky, smiling.
24:58
Speaker 1: She said she's she's afraid that she'll get in trouble
25:01
Speaker 1: as she tells the truth. Natalie showed no emotion and
25:03
Speaker 1: had a very flat affect. Was was not showing happiness, sadness, anger.
25:09
Speaker 1: There was nothing there um that I made a comment
25:12
Speaker 1: here that she seemed almost robot like with some of
25:14
Speaker 1: her responses, and that it appeared as though she was
25:16
Speaker 1: giving her responses she thought she was supposed to give,
25:19
Speaker 1: rather than what she may actually think or feel. The
25:21
Speaker 1: biggest thing that would seem to be reported every single
25:23
Speaker 1: time with lies. Her mom would report that Nellie would
25:27
Speaker 1: continue to lie. Um there were issues with um stealing
25:33
Speaker 1: at school. UM. I would also talk to Nellie. Nellie
25:37
Speaker 1: would talk about wanting to have friends, and so we
25:39
Speaker 1: would work on ways to try to be able to
25:41
Speaker 1: develop friendships with peers. Everybody was asking for help, and
25:45
Speaker 1: Joe's Goot Morgan, forensics expert, Professor a Forensics at Jacksonville
25:50
Speaker 1: State University. According to reports, this child's body had begun
25:56
Speaker 1: digesting itself. What does that Well, what it means, Nancy,
26:02
Speaker 1: is that after all of the fat is gone, which
26:04
Speaker 1: stores our our energy. After all that has gone, the
26:09
Speaker 1: only thing that's left to eat is muscle. And now
26:12
Speaker 1: you've got a kid that is deplete of fat. They're
26:16
Speaker 1: laying on a linoleum floor. Uh no, wonder she had
26:20
Speaker 1: bed sores all over her. These are contact areas. There's
26:24
Speaker 1: no patting on her body if you will. The body
26:27
Speaker 1: is literally eating itself to death. And and this is
26:32
Speaker 1: this is one other thing. Not only is she being
26:35
Speaker 1: starved of you know, intake relative to the food, she's
26:40
Speaker 1: not getting a sufficient amount of water, either and this
26:42
Speaker 1: has led to a dehydration which also leads to enzyme
26:47
Speaker 1: and balance UH. The forensic pathologists talked about that more
26:51
Speaker 1: than likely she had died of a cardiac arrest. She
26:55
Speaker 1: had had a heart problem as a result of her
26:59
Speaker 1: ends being out of balance and her complete system. She's
27:03
Speaker 1: in multi system failure. Now. I would not even put
27:06
Speaker 1: it past the fact that that she's probably got some
27:09
Speaker 1: kind of widespread UH infection, probably sept to seemia that
27:13
Speaker 1: you see many times with these bedsores that go untreated.
27:17
Speaker 1: I want you to hear this. This is harsh but true.
27:20
Speaker 1: She had been lying on a hard surface in her
27:26
Speaker 1: own philth, being starved and not having any water for
27:37
Speaker 1: days until she got so weak that she couldn't move
27:40
Speaker 1: anymore and had a cardiac arrest. The naked scale wing
27:47
Speaker 1: was problems and you asked me to describe that that's
27:53
Speaker 1: a representative rather severe loss of weight to a professional observer,
27:58
Speaker 1: and said is an alarming armor And then Dr Gary,
28:01
Speaker 1: have you informed an advanage or reasonable degree of medical
28:03
Speaker 1: certainty as to the man of manas death? Opinion succintly
28:10
Speaker 1: was hot side. That is the same death as the
28:12
Speaker 1: results or the hands of someone other than her. He
28:15
Speaker 1: had relatively little external evins advengurance. She was extremely dehydrated
28:20
Speaker 1: as she had sent zero fat tissue and very little
28:23
Speaker 1: musculture as evidenced by the photographs. I mean that the
28:26
Speaker 1: skin was just attempted over over her scallow little due
28:29
Speaker 1: to it, in my opinion, a denial of critical care,
28:33
Speaker 1: and is to say she was denied with intuition is
28:36
Speaker 1: also breaking my heart, Ashley Wilcock. When this girl, Natalie
28:41
Speaker 1: fan god Rest, her sweet soul, would go out and
28:45
Speaker 1: try to beg for food, she would ask for extra
28:48
Speaker 1: food to take home to her sister, to try and
28:51
Speaker 1: fade her sister. You know, when I take the twins
28:55
Speaker 1: to school every morning, I say, guys, watch out or
29:00
Speaker 1: each other. Take care of each other. You keep your
29:03
Speaker 1: eye on your brother, and you keep your eye on
29:06
Speaker 1: your sister, and you help them if they need help.
29:11
Speaker 1: That's the last thing I say to them as they
29:13
Speaker 1: get out of the car and run in look out
29:17
Speaker 1: for each other. And this girl he dies lying in
29:21
Speaker 1: feces in urine, down to eighties something pounds, wearing nothing
29:27
Speaker 1: but an adult diaper, is out trying to get food
29:31
Speaker 1: for her sister. Ashley and that amazing. There's no doubt.
29:35
Speaker 1: The only people that could take care of each other
29:37
Speaker 1: in that home were those siblings. And not only did
29:41
Speaker 1: she do that in the diminished state that her body
29:45
Speaker 1: was because of her malnutrition and starvation. Do you know
29:49
Speaker 1: that the morning that she died, the siblings are the
29:54
Speaker 1: wares who gave her food in an old used catchup bottle,
29:59
Speaker 1: which is to disgusting, but they used what they could
30:03
Speaker 1: to give her food. So they also tried to take
30:07
Speaker 1: care of her. But they had to rely on each
30:09
Speaker 1: other because there was no adult in that home caring
30:13
Speaker 1: for these children. The only one that tried to do
30:15
Speaker 1: anything was in neighbor beck Up Gordon. She says, quote,
30:20
Speaker 1: I didn't really know what was going on at first.
30:23
Speaker 1: I thought maybe they didn't have much money, and you know,
30:25
Speaker 1: she was a growing girl until one day when she
30:28
Speaker 1: came to my house and said, my mom locked me
30:32
Speaker 1: up for two days with my sister. We're hungry. I mean,
30:39
Speaker 1: you know, Ashley, I keep going to go you because
30:43
Speaker 1: you know, well everybody on our panel today knows my twins,
30:47
Speaker 1: but Ashley, you know when I go picked them up
30:49
Speaker 1: at school, Yes I know, I fed him breakfast, Yes,
30:53
Speaker 1: I know I packed them snacks. Yes, I know they
30:55
Speaker 1: have a lunch. When I go pick them up, I
30:57
Speaker 1: have snacks and water bottles and their star just there.
31:02
Speaker 1: They're hungry, and especially John David, I think he eats
31:05
Speaker 1: his and Lucy's. You knows. Lucy's staring out in the
31:07
Speaker 1: window singing some song or something, but uh it just
31:11
Speaker 1: because I know they want it. And just thinking of
31:15
Speaker 1: her saying, my mom locked me up for two days
31:19
Speaker 1: with my sister and we're hungry. I just I just
31:23
Speaker 1: can't even imagine this. And then the mom writing those
31:27
Speaker 1: evil text messages Ashley. She has no remorse, no compassion.
31:31
Speaker 1: Here's what's hard to um and and people I think
31:34
Speaker 1: need to know and realize. The neighbor absolutely did the
31:38
Speaker 1: right thing in calling protective services, but as the system,
31:42
Speaker 1: protective services fails and did in this case. So you know,
31:46
Speaker 1: you're just in retrospect, think, gosh, couldn't the neighbor have
31:50
Speaker 1: what I have said, come in, let me give you food,
31:52
Speaker 1: or hey, here's a basket of food. You know, if
31:55
Speaker 1: somebody knocks on your door, Nancy and is in that state,
31:58
Speaker 1: I have to believe not all are you going to
32:00
Speaker 1: do the right thing? The neighbor did and call protective services.
32:03
Speaker 1: But goodness, compassion, would you not feed them? I don't know.
32:07
Speaker 1: Of course, of course we would. This is what else
32:11
Speaker 1: I know, Dr Daniel Bober Forensic psychiatrists listen to this.
32:16
Speaker 1: So the neighbor, Rebecca Gordon, calls police after the girl
32:19
Speaker 1: tells her she's been locked up for two days with
32:22
Speaker 1: her sister. She also says Natalie would wear the same
32:25
Speaker 1: clothes over and over and over, and she smelled of
32:29
Speaker 1: body odor. The little girl did not have shoes and
32:34
Speaker 1: had large bloody blisters on her feet. And then at
32:40
Speaker 1: some point Natalie stopped going to school. Happy all the
32:44
Speaker 1: time at school, but then, as I see, the school
32:49
Speaker 1: was her life. It was where she felt like she
32:53
Speaker 1: couldn't live. Nobody asked a word, nobody noticed, nobody said
32:59
Speaker 1: a thing. Then police reports confirm that two officers, Matthew
33:06
Speaker 1: grands Out and Barry Graham, go to Natalie's house to
33:10
Speaker 1: check on her welfare. At Becca Gordon's prodding. They say
33:15
Speaker 1: they see somebody peecking out the window, but nobody answered
33:19
Speaker 1: when they knocked multiple times. Earlier that day, another officer
33:24
Speaker 1: comes across two children that looked homeless. He didn't know
33:28
Speaker 1: if they may have been the children who lived at
33:30
Speaker 1: the Fens home. I mean, how many red bells of
33:37
Speaker 1: alarm went off, the neighbors saying she's starving, she's begging
33:42
Speaker 1: for food, her feet or bloody. The school reporter calls in,
33:47
Speaker 1: the police go and do a welfare check, somebody picks
33:51
Speaker 1: but they don't go in. Why How can how can
33:56
Speaker 1: this be missed so many times? Dr Bober? It's beyond stupidity, Nancy.
34:04
Speaker 1: I mean, at every point here there was a failure
34:07
Speaker 1: in the system, and it it just shows you how,
34:09
Speaker 1: you know, I guess people see a situation and they
34:12
Speaker 1: don't think that something like this can happen, and they're
34:14
Speaker 1: almost in self denial. But it's just it's beyond comprehension
34:19
Speaker 1: looking at it now. There were so many opportunities to intervene,
34:23
Speaker 1: and the system completely failed these kids. Well, it wasn't
34:26
Speaker 1: just Becca Gordon and next tour neighbor Tianna Curtis also
34:30
Speaker 1: said the team had been coming to her door and
34:34
Speaker 1: she had been giving her food. Apparently the whole neighborhood
34:39
Speaker 1: knew what was happening, and now Natalie is dead. I mean,
34:45
Speaker 1: h John Linley Crime Stories investigative reporter. This has been ongoing.
34:51
Speaker 1: Aren't their rules when somebody doesn't show up for school,
34:55
Speaker 1: don't you have to follow up on what happened to
34:57
Speaker 1: the child? What went wrong? Absolutely, Nancy, And this is
35:01
Speaker 1: where questions just stack on top of questions as to
35:05
Speaker 1: why more wasn't done to simply investigate where she was,
35:11
Speaker 1: why she wasn't in school. We do know that in
35:15
Speaker 1: May of sixteen, Natalie's mom, Nicole Finn, removed Natalie from
35:20
Speaker 1: Walnut Creek campus, after which she was accused of stealing
35:23
Speaker 1: money from a teacher to buy food. She said she
35:27
Speaker 1: bought food and hid it in classrooms to laster through
35:30
Speaker 1: the end of the school year. Stars that poor girl.
35:34
Speaker 1: But this is another thing I don't understand. Did Joseph
35:37
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan forensics expert, you know you work with police constantly,
35:42
Speaker 1: as do I Gordon this The neighbor contacted the Reader's Watchdog,
35:49
Speaker 1: hoping to discover this is after the girl's death, why
35:53
Speaker 1: nobody had been charged with the death. Nothing happened, so
35:57
Speaker 1: they the Reader's Watchdog, make an open recks request for
36:01
Speaker 1: police incident reports, and only after that did something ever happen.
36:08
Speaker 1: I mean, let me ask you this to Joe Scott Morgan,
36:11
Speaker 1: this team girl wearing nothing but adult diapers, the humiliation
36:17
Speaker 1: of lying there naked and feces, starving too, you can't
36:21
Speaker 1: even sit up and ask for anything, and the mom saying, well,
36:27
Speaker 1: if you're not gonna get up and eat, I'm not
36:28
Speaker 1: gonna give you any more food. She wasn't giving her
36:30
Speaker 1: food anyway, Joe Scott, No, she wasn't Nancy. And this
36:35
Speaker 1: is the thing that really leaves me scratching my head here.
36:38
Speaker 1: These kids were obviously, uh you know, victimized by this
36:45
Speaker 1: this creature that's referred to as a mother. But they
36:49
Speaker 1: were victimized not once, but twice by the state. Let's
36:52
Speaker 1: understand that this woman adopted these children into foster care. Okay,
36:59
Speaker 1: that's the first problem. She's got these kids under her care.
37:02
Speaker 1: This this poor little victim that has died, and the victims,
37:06
Speaker 1: the other children, the brothers and sisters, and then the
37:11
Speaker 1: state fails them again. When a Department of Family and
37:14
Speaker 1: Children's Services can't find it within themselves to move forward
37:19
Speaker 1: with this case, I mean, it would seem that that
37:22
Speaker 1: there is a maze, you know. I'd like to say
37:24
Speaker 1: that there's a problem with training and that people don't
37:26
Speaker 1: recognize things. But you know what, Nancy, I've been doing.
37:29
Speaker 1: I've been involved in death investigation for thirty five years.
37:31
Speaker 1: I've heard the same story over and over and over again.
37:34
Speaker 1: We need to fix the system. Really well, I'm waiting
37:37
Speaker 1: on it. When's the system gonna get fixed because the
37:39
Speaker 1: same thing keeps being said and kids continue to die. Well,
37:44
Speaker 1: I'll tell you the only way is going to get fixed,
37:46
Speaker 1: as she lollcott, this is your expertise, is when a
37:49
Speaker 1: d facts worker finally gets prosecuted criminally. That's when it's
37:53
Speaker 1: gonna get fixed. Age, when they're rare and is in
37:55
Speaker 1: a sling, then something will get fixed. When somebody goes
38:00
Speaker 1: to jail, the rest of them will wake up and
38:04
Speaker 1: do something. I mean, why not, Ashley, why are they
38:07
Speaker 1: ever held accountable? Well, okay, so a should someone be
38:12
Speaker 1: held accountable and criminally prosecuted, Yes, absolutely be. Why does
38:17
Speaker 1: it not happen? Because I'm not defending that action, but
38:21
Speaker 1: I am going to say this. Our child welfare systems
38:24
Speaker 1: nationwide and specifically in each state do not get the
38:28
Speaker 1: financial support needed by senators, by congressmen to actually have
38:34
Speaker 1: enough case managers well trained capable of doing the job.
38:39
Speaker 1: You've got twenty two year olds not trained with a
38:42
Speaker 1: hundred cases, good Lord, of course, they can't do their job.
38:45
Speaker 1: And until one of them is criminally prosecuted, and there's
38:49
Speaker 1: outrage because that person couldn't do their job because they
38:53
Speaker 1: weren't given the resources. Because there's not enough money, the
38:56
Speaker 1: money is not going to go into the system. So
38:59
Speaker 1: it's a vicious cycle. So do I want to see
39:01
Speaker 1: an individual who has an impossible job prosecuted um when
39:05
Speaker 1: they're not grounds? Of course not. If they dropped the
39:08
Speaker 1: ball and there was a criminal prosecution, I believe it
39:11
Speaker 1: would drive change and get money into the system to
39:15
Speaker 1: fix the inherent problem. Now, what needs to happen here
39:18
Speaker 1: is not the workers themselves need to be prosecuted. Department
39:23
Speaker 1: heads and politicians need to be prosecuted. That will get
39:27
Speaker 1: people's attention in this and that's the only way that
39:30
Speaker 1: this is going to clear this up. You're right. I've
39:32
Speaker 1: worked cases where we've had eight and nine kids in
39:36
Speaker 1: a family and each child has a separate worker. They
39:40
Speaker 1: don't know what they're doing. They absolutely are completely incompetent
39:45
Speaker 1: in this environment. So department heads need to be arrested
39:49
Speaker 1: and prosecuted and convicted, as well as the people that
39:55
Speaker 1: send money to these people. Uh, that is where that's
39:58
Speaker 1: what's going to stem the flo Oh. This this just
40:01
Speaker 1: river of blood that we're swimming in day after day
40:05
Speaker 1: after day, and these things go under reported. Well, this
40:08
Speaker 1: is what I learned having been sent to lobby at
40:11
Speaker 1: our state Assembly for anti crime issues. They love politicians
40:18
Speaker 1: love to talk about we passed this bill and we're
40:20
Speaker 1: gonna do this, and we're gonna do that. They don't
40:23
Speaker 1: put any money in it, Like Ashley Wilcott was saying,
40:26
Speaker 1: you can put all the laws on the books you
40:28
Speaker 1: want to, but if you don't hire more workers, you
40:30
Speaker 1: don't put more money into that system. Yeah, you can
40:34
Speaker 1: say on the second call to a home, the children
40:37
Speaker 1: are removed, really by who? And where are you going
40:40
Speaker 1: to put them? Because there's nowhere to put them because
40:42
Speaker 1: there's no money being given to the program. It's a
40:45
Speaker 1: systemic problem. But I don't think we should just go
40:50
Speaker 1: for the politicians and the heads of the departments. I
40:52
Speaker 1: would go for the worker that turned their back and
40:55
Speaker 1: walked away from that front door and left Natalie to
41:00
Speaker 1: Oh did I forget to mention the life insurance policies
41:06
Speaker 1: for Natalie her siblings. There was no place like home
41:10
Speaker 1: because for Nataline her siblings, home is a place of fear, confinement, torture.
41:16
Speaker 1: Did I mentioned, John Lemley, have you told us yet
41:20
Speaker 1: about the two separate life insurance policies one for ten
41:23
Speaker 1: thousand and one for twenty five thousand taken out on
41:27
Speaker 1: this girl in particular, Natalie correct Natalie's adoptive parents had
41:33
Speaker 1: taken out to life insurance policies on the girl before
41:37
Speaker 1: she died. Nicole and Joe took out a policy that
41:40
Speaker 1: carried a ten thousand dollar benefit, and on top of that,
41:44
Speaker 1: Nicole also bought another policy in two thousand nine that
41:48
Speaker 1: carried that twenty five thousand dollar benefit. Court records showed
41:53
Speaker 1: that Joe actually called about that second policy the day
41:57
Speaker 1: after Natalie died, and Nicole was then sent information on
42:01
Speaker 1: how to file a claim. You know, less than twenty
42:04
Speaker 1: four hours pass and they're trying to get their hands
42:07
Speaker 1: on the money. Seriously, And all this mom has to
42:12
Speaker 1: say is that she wasn't processing her actions due to
42:16
Speaker 1: mental health. What mental health? I want to hear about
42:20
Speaker 1: demons and evil spirits? No, all she said is she
42:24
Speaker 1: had traumatic stress disorder from a relationship that ended five
42:29
Speaker 1: years before. After four thousand pages of records, we find
42:35
Speaker 1: out nothing but an alleged depression. Really, that's your defense
42:42
Speaker 1: for allowing your daughter to die and your children to starve. So, Alan,
42:47
Speaker 1: do you what happened in the latest court appearance Nancy.
42:51
Speaker 1: During the final days of the trial, the surviving siblings
42:54
Speaker 1: of Natalie fantastified against their mother Nicole. Cameras were not
42:58
Speaker 1: allowed in the courtroom, though is the teens testified. Reporters
43:01
Speaker 1: for k c c I t V Phillis in on
43:04
Speaker 1: the emotional details. We saw Nicole wiping away tear several
43:08
Speaker 1: times as she listened to one child testify. It was
43:11
Speaker 1: the sixteen year old boy who did not have to
43:13
Speaker 1: share her room with Natalie and the others. But we
43:16
Speaker 1: also heard from Natalie's younger brother who was in the
43:20
Speaker 1: bedroom with Natalie on those final days. He says they
43:22
Speaker 1: had to be supervised to go to the bathroom, and
43:25
Speaker 1: at one point they were only allowed to eat food
43:28
Speaker 1: in the hallway. He says the longest he went without
43:31
Speaker 1: eating was two weeks. He says in Natalie's last day alive,
43:34
Speaker 1: he was told to feed her sugar water through her
43:37
Speaker 1: syringe while she remained in their bedroom. Now. Both of
43:40
Speaker 1: the siblings that testified today recol a visit from West
43:43
Speaker 1: de Moin police in DHS in August of last year.
43:46
Speaker 1: One says Nicole threatened them if they gave any incriminating
43:49
Speaker 1: information to the police or state agency. The officer who
43:53
Speaker 1: was a part of that visit says the homeless cluttered
43:56
Speaker 1: but did not notice much else. Mikaela Finn says she
43:59
Speaker 1: was homeschool old her her eighth grade year, and during
44:02
Speaker 1: much of that year she would have to spend all
44:05
Speaker 1: day in her room and always asked to eat or
44:07
Speaker 1: go to the bathroom. Michaela says Natalie would bring her
44:10
Speaker 1: food from school, but once Natalie dropped out, they would
44:12
Speaker 1: sneak out of the house and panhandle for money. Their
44:15
Speaker 1: mom eventually found new ways to keep them confined to
44:18
Speaker 1: the bedroom. The fifteen year old was face to face
44:21
Speaker 1: was her mom, Nicole Finn for the first time in
44:23
Speaker 1: the year. The team described their limited access to food,
44:26
Speaker 1: that alarm on the door, even a sign she had
44:29
Speaker 1: posted to their window need food and money, But it
44:32
Speaker 1: was that bare room many others remember too. The state
44:35
Speaker 1: asked Michaela Thursday, quote, why were you peeing on the carpet?
44:39
Speaker 1: Our mom wouldn't let us go to the bathroom, she said.
44:42
Speaker 1: Michaela says her sister was weak for a long time
44:45
Speaker 1: before her death in October of and her mom was
44:48
Speaker 1: well aware she couldn't walk to the shower, which is
44:50
Speaker 1: why Michaela says she gave her a sponge bath in
44:53
Speaker 1: their bedroom. On the day of Natalie's death, Michaela noticed
44:56
Speaker 1: her sister had pale lips. She said, quote At that moment,
44:59
Speaker 1: I knew my sister was going to die, and she
45:02
Speaker 1: teared up as she said she was never able to
45:04
Speaker 1: tell Natalie goodbye. A jury found Nicole Finn guilty of murder,
45:08
Speaker 1: child cruelty, kidnapping, and Judge Karen Romano Senate start to
45:12
Speaker 1: three life sentences. She called her actions inexcusable. These children
45:17
Speaker 1: were clearly deprived of proper care, They were deprived of food, um,
45:23
Speaker 1: they were deprived of an ability to be treated with dignity.
45:27
Speaker 1: The judge also ordered her not to have any contact
45:29
Speaker 1: with the surviving adopted children. Her lawyer says she'll appeal,
45:33
Speaker 1: but they made no other comment as for the adoptive father,
45:37
Speaker 1: Joseph Finn, has a plea hearing set for March one.
45:40
Speaker 1: Court records show the adoptive father of the sixteen year
45:43
Speaker 1: old girl who starved to death will enter a new plea.
45:47
Speaker 1: Forty seven year old Joseph Finn the Second already has
45:49
Speaker 1: pleaded not guilty to kidnapping, child endangerment and neglect or abandonment.
45:54
Speaker 1: The records don't offer any details on an agreement. Nancy
45:59
Speaker 1: Grace Time Stories signing off Goodbye Friend