Latest / Don Talk - Conversations with Mike Turner / We Don’t Have a Black Boy Problem — We Have an Adult Problem
Transcript
- Dink: Schools do a lot of work with children, but we don't do enough work with the adults that serve children. We really don't have a child issue in our nation. We have an adult issue, man. And that's a very, I say that responsibly, right? Because parents give their children all that they have. But we don't always equip parents to provide their children with the conversations, with the character development, with the resilient preparation to endure hard things and overcome them. And then we send them to school and we don't equip teachers with the emotional intelligence to manage the emotional journeys of children. So when we're triggered, we use discipline to respond to children rather than intervention. And help children build the skills so that they can be successful. That's why we have prisoner pipelines. That's why adults are frustrated, not just because of the behavior of the child, but because they lack the skill to provide the child what they need real time. Mike Turner: Alright, welcome everybody to another episode of Don Talk. Today's subject is the strong black boy. We almost lost. So we got special guest, college buddy of mine, Doctor Brian Dinkins, man. How you doing today, brother? Dink: I'm I'm better now, man. I'm with my with my ho my my guy. somebody I've been looking up to for a long time. Mike Turner: come on now, man. Who this this old guy? Dink: You the All-American, bro. You the All-American. Mike Turner: Well man, l look, this is the first time we probably connected in probably since I left Purdue, right? Dink: We've been out what twenty when'd you leave? I left in one spring. Mike Turner: So I I left in 2000 and then I came Dink: Okay. Mike Turner: back in one to start grad school. So yeah, Dink: Okay, okay. So that low. Mike Turner: yeah, it's been long. We've been following each other on social media, so been keeping the tabs that way. But man, I'm excited about this conversation here. We're gonna jump right into it. so let's go back to your Purdue days. I knew Dink: Yeah. Mike Turner: you as a football player and now sitting across from you, doctor. Brian Dinkins, man. That's a that doctor in front of that. Like, I wanna I wanna start with you as a young man. I wanna start with the young man I knew back before getting into the work you're doing today. What do you remember about your time at Purdue? Dink: Yeah, man, Purdue was a good time, man. You know, the time that we were there, I think Purdue was experiencing athletic excellence across the board, man. So y'all were killing it. We won a Big Ten championship. The girls basketball won a national championship. So, you know, there was excellence there. And I feel like as athletes, we had we were pretty well connected, man. I feel like the the athletes in our space, Really showed each other love, supported each other. I can remember watching you jump multiple times. but for me, man, it was it was a journey in itself. I left Indianapolis, a young man who had a rough childhood, who who was trying to figure out what I wanted to be. And, you know, I share all the time, school done always help the black boy figure out who he is. apart from what he can do. You know what I'm saying? I was a four-sport athlete, varsity athlete, had some success playing sports. Grades wasn't a priority. So, you know, I really put all my my cookies in one jar. A lot of people don't know, man. I graduated high school with a one point nine GPA. You did? Yeah, bro. Mike Turner: I saw that in your bio, like Dink: And you know so funny, bees, man. He was like, How in the world you get in Purdue with a one point? I don't even know how I got into Mike Turner: Yeah. Dink: Purdue with a point one point nine, but God loves me. And the door opened up. So I ended up on can on campus at Purdue. Jim Coletto invited me to a visit after I had finally passed the SAT to get clear in the house. He invited me like August. He said, you want to come play? I said, yep. He said, sign your scholarship. I was back the next week in camp, man. But a young guy trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I wanted to play ball. So that's what I did. Mike Turner: Yeah. And I said that's crazy because, you know, going over your bio, you had a one point nine at high school after my freshman year, my GP of one point nine at Purdue. I th Dink: Yep, yep, yep. Mike Turner: I found out later that, you know, I'm from Inglewood, California, inner city kid. I Dink: Yep. Mike Turner: found out later that I was red flagged coming in. So they immediately put me with Tanya Foster to like, we gotta make sure this guy is straight. Dink: Four years I spent with Mike Turner: Yeah. Dink: Tony Foster. Mike Turner: Right. I remember going to her office when she had no business being in the office, but she was there to help us out. Eight o'clock at night after you done worked out, ate, showered, now you had time to actually go to study hall. She was still there to help. She didn't have that tutor title, but she was my tutor. Dink: Bro, you taking me back, man. Tanya Tanya, I wouldn't have got through Purdue, Tanya Foster, man. Cause they put me in I was in study Mike Turner: Yeah. one hundred percent. I I'm on the same page. Dink: for four years, bro, in that in that study table program. Four years. Crazy. Mike Turner: Yeah, I'm I am I am with you. Same here. So so what do you think Dink: You're false. Mike Turner: like right. Well I e I've been up there and saw her, man, it's so good always seeing her every time I go up there. so what do you think your life would look like after football? When you was in college, were you thinking pros automatically and and obviously I don't I can imagine you weren't thinking I'm gonna be Doctor Dinkins, you know, doing what you're doing now. Dink: Not at all, bro. I mean, that's a great question. I went to Purdue to play football, man. In fact, when I met with my counselor, she said, What you want to do? I said, I want to be a doctor. She said, No, not with these transcripts. And I was like, You know, I said, What about athletic training? She said, No. I said, What am I gonna do then? She said, You're gonna do psychology. I said, What is that? She said, Don't worry about it. You can do psychology and football. So I had a psychology degree, bro. I I didn't even know what psychology was. But I knew I knew I could get through. With the psychology and football after she had explained it to me. But I football was it, man. I left there with a plan to go to the league. And I got there during a time where you got Roosevelt Coven, who's a starter. You got Chi K O Keefer, who's Mike Turner: Mm. Dink: a starter. You got Chuki Wakori, who the who's who's a starter. All NFL guys, man. So I had to sit, bro. I had to sit what two and a half years before I actually got to see the field. So Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: So you know there was this uncertainty. You know, I was a four-year starter in high school. I come and now I'm on a scout team. I'm playing behind these guys. So I didn't really know what the plan was, but I promise you, there still was no academic plan or career plan because football was it. Let me stay eligible long enough to play football and get my shot. And I end up starting my junior senior year, both years I started. I thought that was gonna be my my passion. Halfway, man. But I tore my knee up first game after first game my senior year, and that changed the whole trajectory for me. Mike Turner: Yeah, so so let's talk about this. I know as a football player, y'all don't like to talk about emotions, but we gon' we're gonna talk Dink: Yeah. Mike Turner: about this. You go from a you made a statement, you go from a four year starter in high school to like being behind some dogs and not playing for two years or not starting for two years. What was that like? Was that an emotional roller coaster at that point in time? How did you deal with that? Dink: Dude. You know, it's so interesting. You're making me go back to the space, right? I was patient. I knew if I if I smacked Drew Brees on his behind during practice on the scout team, I might get a shot eventually. end up being a scout team player of the year. You know, I was I I was patient, but it was hard, man. It was hard. it's so funny. I played my freshman year, special teams. Then Tiller comes in and redshirts me. So Mike Turner: Mm. Dink: I thought I was gonna be playing. Then he redshirted me. I had to sit a whole nother year. So the emotional roller coaster, man, was a it was really a disaster for me because I didn't go to Purdue to get an education. I went to play football. I gotta wait my turn behind behind these dogs. And this uncertainty really it messed with me, bro. Because I didn't know how to manage my emotions either, because they don't teach you that in school. I didn't I didn't grow up in a house with a father. Who modeled for me how to manage emotions as a man. And so I feel like I was really left in my own emotional roller coaster. Exactly the word you use. That's exactly Mike Turner: Yeah. Dink: what it was. Mike Turner: And we're gonna dive more into that later on 'cause that's a key point of the topic that we're gonna be discussing throughout this discussion. So, but like now looking back, if you could see if your younger self could see you now, what would surprise him the most about if y'all was sitting across from each other, what would the younger self be so surprised about the dink that they see now? Dink: That's good, man. And I love that you say dink, right? Because Dr. Dinkins. No, bro, we dink for life, bro. Listen, a Dr. Mike Turner: Yeah, I'm not calling you Dr. Deakin. Dink: Dinkins doesn't still wrestles with this true reality that a kid who graduated high school with a 1.9 GPA now has five degrees from four universities, who's traveling the world talking about emotions. That's what I did my dissertation on. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: The emotional intelligence of teachers impact on the behaviors of black boys. So this young boy who grew up in the projects, who went on to Purdue, who left there broken because the plan didn't work, and football didn't happen, and now I gotta put the pieces together. The young version would probably look across the table and go, one, I'm proud of you. But two, he probably would ask the question, what did it cost you? Right? Mike Turner: Mm. Dink: What did it cost you to get to where you are now? And I'd say quite a bit, man. A lot of sacrifice, a lot of self-exploration, a lot of healing. I left school, went into depression six months, didn't even leave my mama's apartment Mike Turner: wow. Dink: complex. Mike Turner: Yeah. Dink: Because I didn't have no plan. Football was it. I didn't know what mental illness was or depression. I just felt this heavy sense of failure. And you know, it took mentorship, it took exploration, it took education to really get to where I am now. But I'm grateful for the journey. Learned a lot during the journey, man. Mike Turner: Yeah, man. I didn't even know that you went through all that. Obviously we didn't like I said earlier, we didn't talk about we didn't talk once I left. Dink: Yeah. Mike Turner: and that's man, especially during that time, two thousand one, mental mental health wasn't a thing. It was suck it up. And that and that's one of the things that I that I wanna I'm trying to debunk this whole suck it up, don't cry, you know, be a man. Like We grew up in that era and I can I can only imagine coming from football, getting hurt, thinking you're you're gonna go to the pro getting hurt your senior year when you s just starting to blossom to like damn, I got nothing. And on a f but the whole time the aggression that's poured into you as a football player from everybody, it's like you can't express what you're going through at that point in time because you're gonna look soft. Dink: You know, think there's also there is stigmas with our community around mental Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: illness, right? Mental health, emotional, lack of emotional self-awareness. You know, we grow up, you better not cry. All those things. And you know, I would say my my experience is unique. I grew up with a strong mom, woman of faith, who she really modeled for us. healthy ways to manage emotion. But watching a woman manage their emotions and not seeing a man model that was still a huge gap. we came out of 2001, experienced 911, right? So Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: I'm literally I'm unemployed, I'm at the crib, I'm dealing with failure. Now we've got all this happening in our nation. So all Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: those things at once really happening and not knowing what to do with the emotions was a journey. I would say probably the thing that grounded me most, man, was my my faith foundation. I began to heal and come out of that self-defeated mindset. And really, you know, my mom came in the living room one Sunday morning. She said, Baby, it's time. I said, Mama, what? She said, You got to figure out what your purpose is, baby. She used the language why. She said, You got to figure out what your why is. And I said, What is that? Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: She said, Well, you know. The pastors say everybody's created with a purpose. It was it was beautiful watching you play football in front of all those people, but you got to figure out what you was created to do. So that began my journey of healing because football had occupied all this space for so long. That was the plan, and now I had to figure out what I'm supposed to do and fell into education, man. Substitute teacher, teacher, principal, professor. And so when that purpose fell on my lap, the healing began because then I could transition. I had no identity outside of football. Then education came and I really began to identify what my purpose was, and that helped me with the healing. But it was still Mike Turner: Uh-huh. Dink: that journey of learning emotions at the same time. I hadn't quite fully healed, but I began that journey of healing. Mike Turner: I'm glad your your mom gave you the time to just Dink: Yeah. Mike Turner: go through probably something you've never been emotionally never experienced. So I'm glad she gave you the time, but also it's like, all right, man. Dink: This is tough. Mike Turner: You've been in long enough, player. Dink: Right, that's right. Get out. Mike Turner: Yeah, I love that fact. But like that brings that's the exact next transition that we're gonna go into. when you're an athlete, so much of your life is built around the next season, the next game, the next opportunity. But eventually the game changes or it ends or you get hurt in both our cases, actually. what happens to the man when the identity is no longer the center of his life? So now we get into Dr. Dinkins. That's the last time I'm gonna call you that. CEO, founder Dink: Yes, sir. Mike Turner: of the Center of Empowering Education. Education, creator of emotionally inclusive practices, author and creator, a rising professional development trainer, keynote and motivational speaker, and founder of the Center of Empowering Education, and who has also served as the educational leadership, as director of educational leadership at Butler University. You know, all coming from a 1.9 GPA high school. Look at God, won't he do it? Dink: See Mike Turner: Ha Dink: amazing, bro. He's amazing, man. Yeah, it's so crazy w listening until you read it, man. Cause it's still don't I'm still that I'm still that little kid sitting in that one bedroom apartment. hearing the dogs bark because we upstairs. Yeah, man, just wondering why life is so hard, you know. but this journey of growing, man, all those things that you have just read really came out of pain, you know what mean? Cause you know, I imagine and and I I would come and watch y'all train, man, because I I thought I was gonna do track too. Because I I went to state three times. well all that too, bro, you know. We went taking y'all girls. Mike Turner: No, you was coming to watch us train or you was coming to steal all our our women? 'Cause all y'all football players was taking all our girls, man. I'm still mad at y'all for that. Dink: Listen, they don't mess with the ball players, man. Y'all had them on lock. But you know, we we were always curious. You know, it's so funny. I dated a a Purdue athlete Mike Turner: Yeah. Dink: for three years, you know. yeah, man. So so perhaps I did. Perhaps I did. Perhaps I did. But I I I did, and she saved my Mike Turner: Yes. And they yeah, you stole one of ours. Dink: life really, man, from a lot of hardship. It was a safe place. Mike Turner: That's awesome. Dink: But that transition, man, of figuring out who I was, substitute teacher, then I began to map out the journey. So I I got mentorship early who really placed some things in front of me. Said, you know, you could sit at people's table or you could build your own table. Right. And so I think understanding that early was really good. They said, You can be a substitute teacher in my building, or you can go get your teacher's license and become a teacher in it. And then when that happened, they said you can be a teacher under this principal's leadership, or you could go get the degree and become the principal and lead the school. So I did that. They said you could be the principal of the school, or you can go get your doctorate, EDS, superintendent's license and lead the district. And so You know, that that's all that dog is already in us. You know what I'm saying? We know how to compete on the field, on the track. We know how to elevate our performance and become the best versions of ourselves. I just needed to transition those same skills and mindset into another realm. And it made Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: sense for me, man, because it was easy going to work all all day. Not easy. But people would say, man, that's so much. For me, it wasn't that much because we did 5 a.m., 6 a.m. workouts. Then we leave in workouts, going to class from 7:30 to 11, then practice from one to five, and then study tables from eight to 10. That's hard. You know what I'm saying? Working and then going to class. For Mike Turner: Yeah. Dink: me, it wasn't that hard. It was transferable. I just needed to put that work ethic in the right place. And it fit and it made sense for me and off we go. And now I'm building and now I'm learning. In my dissertation work at at at Ball State, I took a EQ assessment for the first time in my life. I learned about trauma. And I learned about emotional intelligence. Mike, when they gave me that 10-question assessment about trauma, I had never in my entire life, I'm in my 30s, nobody had ever told me what trauma was. Nobody Mike Turner: Dye. Dink: had ever told me what emotional intelligence is. And here I am taking this assessment. You ever dealt with physical abuse? Yep. Sexual abuse? Yep. Homelessness? Yep. I almost scored a perfect score, bro. Eight out of 10 on the assessment. And as a black male in this society where there are these sometimes unspoken expectations of us from an outside community and from our own community and dealing with all that childhood stuff. I had to put it in its right place, man. And then emotional intelligence came on the scene. I took its assessment. My EQ was terrible. So I got a lot of trauma and and no knowledge of my emotional self so that I could manage how that trauma was showing up in my school, Mike Turner: Uh-huh. Dink: in my relationships. And so it really just brought another opportunity for me to learn myself so that I could manage myself in positive, productive ways for my community and my family, man. Mike Turner: Yeah. So it's it's dude, yeah, like in I didn't know all this, man. So do Dink: A lot there, bro. Lot there right there. Mike Turner: you is it safe to say that the co the path that you took educationally was rooted from what you've been through as a child? Is that what got you to to your dissertation of like I need to understand more about this, let me study it so I can help. Is that a fair statement? Dink: I I don't think you could have said it any better than that, you know. I say all the time speaking and training, I say most most students won't remember a lesson you taught, but they can remember how you made them feel. They can remember the positive relationship you had with them. And it was my principal, Dr. Jackie Greenwood, my coaches, Dick Harpo, Rodney Decker, Douglas, Steve Douglas, who were the safe places for me, who were the fathers, the surrogate mothers, who held me accountable, who wouldn't allow me to quit. Who said to me, educators are pivotal in all children's experience, but particularly in those who have heart starts. Who don't always have resources, who need that accountability and support. And I said, let me be to this next generation of athlete, of, of student, of teacher, who was to me. So absolutely what you said, it was birthed out of my pain and my learning that said, let me become the thing that I needed, so that I can help them become the best versions of themselves. Mike Turner: That's awesome. I think how how is that transition? Because you go from being managed as a kid, as a boy, to be the best player you can be. And they didn't care about nothing else. They just want you to be great on the field. I Dink: Yeah. Mike Turner: see that as management. To now you in this role where you're developing boys to men. Like, is it still a hard transition to break away from your past, or is it you've been doing it long enough to know that This is I'm here and I don't teeter back and forth, if that makes sense. Dink: You ask us some dope questions, man. You know, I'm sitting here. We both sitting here. And I think the the the truth that I have unpacked on my journey, I wonder for you. I'm still the kid. You know, we bring so much of our childhood with us. It's really hard to leave that child behind, man. A lot of the things, our interactions, our triggers, our the way we build relationships and manage them, a lot of that manifests from my childhood. So I think the thing that has added great value to me is I understand that about myself. And I leverage that knowledge in proactive ways, even with my own children. I have beautiful daughters, man. And I'm living vicariously through them, right? They have resource, they got their own rooms, they drive in luxury cars, they go into private school. And Mike Turner: Yeah. Yeah. Dink: I and I sometimes I drive past my apartment complex and I say, Yes, where your daddy lived for fifteen years And they go, Mike Turner: Right. Dink: Really? And I go, Yeah. And my hope is, because I don't want them ever to feel like, you know, that that There is this expectation of them to to have to experience the hardship that we experience. But I want them Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: to have a level of appreciation for the life God has given them. Not even what I've given them, but what God is giving them as a healthy life with two healthy, educated parents who have cultivated a home of love for them. But, you know. I have to be careful to say this is their life. My life was a lot different. And I got to give them some grace and empathy on their journey too, man. So the kid is still here. I'm just managing him really well. And sometimes I have moments, but I manage them well because I've spent time with him and understand how he shows up today. Mike Turner: Yeah, and you know you make a g a good point because I realize I've been on this soul searching journey I would say since October. This past October, probably about a year. And Dink: Yeah. Mike Turner: it's uncovered a lot. Yes, I'm the kid at heart that never got Jordan growing up. So every time some retro Jordans come out, I'm getting them. You Dink: Yep. Yep. Mike Turner: know, I'm the kid that rarely Sometimes I and I I don't wanna say this wrong, 'cause we always had a great Christmas. But was it the Votron action figures that I wanted? No. Dink: That's right. Mike Turner: It was we got a great Christmas, but it wasn't the stuff that I wanted. So now I'm the kid that has the resources to ooh, I want that and I I gotta get it. But that kid can still get you in trouble at times. When you overe Dink: A lot of times. Mike Turner: overextend yourself with living that kid as an adult. So but that is that's very true, man. It was I I uncovered some stuff that I'm that I was dealing with at the age of sixteen, something that my father told me that I was still dealing with today. And it was the very first podcast that we dropped that that the guy brought it out. And he was like, That's the the root You need to talk to your father about that. And so I mean man, like if we don't you you're doing great work because we didn't have this growing up. My father was a ultimate provider, can never take that away from him. He grew up the Jim Crow South, you know, so all he knew was survival and pro and providing and he did that. Did an amazing job at that. but now in this phase you look back why I'm growing emotionally, yeah, I wish we'd had more of that. But now we have it now. We could talk about stuff now. So, yeah, I think that that's all we all got that little kid in us that's still still tryna in us and operating. Man, I've I've been I went to a private school, now I'm rambling. I went to a private school from kindergarten through eighth. Dink: I was good. Really? Mike Turner: And yeah. And ever since high school I feel like I've been trying to fit in. Because you know, you you you grow up this way, now you go to this public school. I remember walking down the the the in between buildings, going to class to class. I'm like, what's that smell? Like that's weed, Michael. I'm like, What's weed? I was so naive, dog. Dink: Not bad, that's good though, bro. You were protected from this stuff. Mike Turner: I was protective, I was sheltered big time, dog. Dink: So funny, man. I I I think about my daughters in that way. I'm in this delicate balance, man, between the hardness that shaped me Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: and damaged me at the same time, right? So because I want my I want my daughters to also be able to navigate this world in a way that they don't get taken advantage of. And so, you know, keeping a balance between exposing them to the world and then sheltering them from the things that could potentially harm them. And I think that's a that's a delicate balance. I had a I had a I was on a training and I was sharing my story and one of the the principals asked me, he said, if you could go back, would you change anything? And I said, I don't think there's anything I would change. About my childhood because those lessons have shaped me. There are many stories and experiences that I use now to train teachers of things not to do, things to do in the mentor groups that I have with fathers, things that they should be thinking about and considering when having conversations with their children. So those are all things that. I have gleaned from and now opportunities for me to leverage those things to share even my own journey. Mike Turner: Yeah, you make a good point though. So here here's the the question. I want you to answer this as a as an educator and as a father. Like, can emotional intelligence and strict discipline coexist? Dink: I think they have to coexist, right? I will tell you when I took my EQ assessment. Have you ever taken an EQ assessment? I got one for you, bro. I'm gonna send it to you, man. After the calls. I'm Mike Turner: I have not. Now you scare me. I don't know if I seem to me, I'll take it. Yeah. Dink: gonna send it to you. because most humans don't even know what their level of emotional intelligence is. Comprised of four skills self awareness, understanding my emotional journey, what triggers me, what brings me joy. Frustrations are what I fear. We don't spend time really unpacking and categorizing it so that we can actually leverage that knowledge in a proactive way. So that's the first Mike Turner: Yes. Dink: skill: self-awareness. Self-management is the second one. How do you respond when you're emotionally triggered? Mike Turner: Mm. Dink: Most harsh discipline manifest out of an emotional triggered moment. Unmet expectation, frustration, fear, fight, flight, or freeze. I'm triggered. And what me and my homeboys laugh about is that switch off the tree, that instinction cord that was plugged in, that belt that got a name to it. All of that, bro, it Mike Turner: The wooden spoon out the kitchen drawer, man. Dink: was is learned behavior, but it's also deeply rooted. in an emotional response that can turn into a physical altercation with your child. Right? My mom raised us. She had big hands. She's a big woman, you know, and so she she set a tone. But the thing that my mom also had was emotional intelligence. So she would let us have it, and then she would sit us down and tell us what happened, why it happened, and then begin to repair the harm that was done through relationship. That's all emotional intelligence. So I gotta develop awareness. Now I gotta manage the emotion. Social awareness is the third skill, me identifying the emotional journey of those I'm in community with. So I tell principals, I tell fathers, mothers, you should be studying your children so deeply, you know what their emotional journey is. I got Mike Turner: Mm. Dink: I ask in all my trainings, I say, when your child comes home from school, you ask them what? How was their day? What they say mostly, good, fine. They use Mike Turner: Good, it was fine. Dink: limited emotional vocabulary because they we model for them limited emotional vocabulary. So I I say if your child comes home and they say good, you can see on their face when they didn't have a good day. You go, no, not good. Come here and talk to me. Well, how was your day? Because you study them. Humans who study the emotional communication of those who they're in community with, it's a cheat code. When your spouse is having a bad day, you already know it before they open up their mouth. Your teachers, your students, your players. You know what I'm saying? When a player is not emotionally regulated and you study them, you already know before they open up their mouth. So that's the third skill. The last skill is relationship management. So how we manage our emotions of the emotions of others in relationship with each other, right? Now there's a there's a trust recession in society. We got AI that's fake, we got social media where people put their best foot forward, but they suffered in silence behind the screen, Mike Turner: Mm. Dink: and so there's a trust recession that people feel like they have to put this front up. To be liked, to be loved. And so there's not true vulnerability and transparency in our society. And that is really where deep relationship begins, where we can get vulnerable, transparent, and build belonging and trust. So I can tell you, Mike, when I'm not doing well emotionally, and you can say, Let me be a safe place for you, bro. Let's talk Mike Turner: Mm. Dink: about it. What can I do for you? You can tell your spouse I'm not doing well right now. rather than as a man put this front up that all everything is okay, but we know suicide is high in our community because I've been suffering in silence because I don't feel like I can tell anybody that I'm going through. You know what mean? Mike Turner: Yeah. And so now I'ma ask a personal question. And I hope you Dink: Yeah. Mike Turner: hope you're free to answer it. You're the teacher that teaches all this to to to boys, but also to the facilitators for to notice these in these kids. Let's talk about Dink, the husband, the man, the father. Dink: Yeah, man. Mike Turner: What give an example, past, present, or future that triggers you to go in that space of like, I'm having a tough time dealing with this. Like, and then you gotta you gotta go to your wife and be like, I need I need help. I need to take a step back. Because that's hard for us to admit at times, but it's a necessary admission for us to grow and continue to heal, get better, however you wanna say it. Dink: Heavy question, Mike. And and I'll share vulnerable, man. I married a beautiful woman, educator, met her teacher, man. My homeboy said, Yo, B, it's a fine teacher. She just started. I said, Where's she at? He said, He said, She had a computer lab. I said, Let's go. So, you know, I walked in there, man, met her, you know, and our relate, our friendship began. She had a boyfriend, boo, but we double dated and He broke up, they broke up, and it's been history, man. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: I took my wife out of a middle class experience, two educated parents, highly resourced, had everything she needed, had a father, wise man, great man. And then she married this dumpster fire, bro, who's on this journey, come from poverty. We're learning every day. Our core values are very different because of our upbringing. And we're raising a family together. So there's constant misfires, there's constant perspectives that we have to investigate. And it's probably been the greatest learning of my life because I live in a house with three beautiful middle class women. And they operate as such, and my world is vastly different. I've been out of poverty a long time, but I'm still the poor kid. I I have created businesses that generate r really significant resource but I'm still the poor kid who wants to jaze who spins feverishly you know at times irresponsibly who buy the big luxury vehicle that you don't really need with the 26 Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: inch rims and I got a doctor degree I got this big old Mike Turner: Yeah. Dink: car that's rumping you know through the neighborhood man so I recognize who I am and and sometimes it causes barriers in my home. And so sometimes I articulate it, sometimes I hide myself in silence. Even with all the learning that I've done, I recognize that in my home I have to operate responsibly. I am trying to be a man of faith, a father that provides and protects. But I still have a lot of gaps, bro. This is the first time I've ever done this, right? As Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: a father, never seen it. What it looks like in a healthy way. As a husband, never seen it. And so I'm making a lot of mistakes. I get on my wife's nerves a lot, you know? And so I'm constantly trying to repair. It's exhausting. It's exhausting for them too. Cause they have to deal with me and my stuff. And so, you know, I try to give myself grace. I try to get mentorship. Who says, be your human, give yourself grace, but be constantly trying to be present, trying to be the provider, saying I'm sorry, all the things that I think are vital in that relationship journey that I don't always get right, man. I'm still learning. Mike Turner: That's awesome. It seems we got it seems as though you have great support along the way to help you as you continue to learn too. Dink: I do man, I got some brothers, man, who I can go and cry with. Let me say that. Who I can cry with. Mike Turner: I think that's needed for all men. Dink: Come on, man. Mike Turner: You have to be able to recognize who those are, who those individuals are, to create that safe space because if we're holding in all that anger, frustration, hurt, pain, it's gonna explode on something in somebody. And crying releases that. Dink: Say it again, man. Say it again. Mike Turner: I'm gonna just put on repeat. Crying crying actually does r release that, man. I and we gotta us as men, we gotta get beyond that that that phrase of us growing up, don't cry. Now, you might not want to cry at work, but if you gotta go shut your door in your office and let it out or go to the bathroom or go to your car, do it. But I'm I'm n I would never tell anybody don't cry. I just may tell them you be careful where you do with that. Dink: You know, it's interesting you say that because you know what my experience has been, you know, I think that door first opened up for me. Cause I I, you know, I would find moments where it just overwhelmed me, emotions overwhelmed me so much that I couldn't keep myself from crying, right? And in Mike Turner: Mm, yeah. Dink: those moments after that ugly cry. That feeling of a lift, you know what I'm saying? Feeling lighter. You know, having that those moments were learning for me. but the moment of being able to cry with your brother and him understand what you're going through, that's a whole nother level, right? That's Mike Turner: Yeah. Dink: safe place where you still lean into your masculinity. But you are releasing the cortisol from your body. You are releasing the toxicity. You know what I'm saying? out of your nerve allowing your nervous system to express your emotions in this healthy way, in a safe space. You know, because I, you know, my daughters have seen me cry, my wife has seen me cry. But I don't know that they understand it, you know? Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: I don't think they understand it. You know, even my my my wifey that, you know, she she'll say, you know, you emotional. And and and so it's not always safe there. And not because she's a bad human or a bad wife, just don't understand it, right? Like never seen her father cry. And so, so finding the space where That release is is important because I'm gonna be honest with you, man. Football saved my life because the anger and frustration that I was experiencing, I could, I could, I could release cracking on boys. You know what I'm saying? Mike Turner: Release it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dink: Picking a boy up and body slamming them and and and and it'd be celebrated. You know what I'm saying? Mike Turner: Yeah. huh. Dink: You know that that that that pancake, you know, Mike Turner: Yeah. Dink: sacking the quarterback. And looking at him saying, I'll be back. You know, that expression Mike Turner: Yeah. Dink: of emotional output was legitimate, you know what I'm saying, on the Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: field. Now for me, I go into the gym, man, and I push it out. You know what I'm saying? And I can release a lot of that emotional tension in the gym. So I put it in its proper place. But I know that that dog inside of me that if I ever found myself in the wrong place at the wrong time could really get me in trouble because I was a fighter. You know what I'm saying? I grew up in a neighborhood. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: I had to fight. And I could remember getting jumped and and landed on these dudes. You know what I'm saying? And so That that young boy inside of me scares me at Mike Turner: Yeah. Dink: times because I recognize how he could show up at the wrong time and really like I think about if anybody ever put their hands on my kids that, you know, I don't know that I have the emotional restraint to to Protect my family because now I'm in an emotional response. So I pray daily, bro. Lord, protect my family, protect me from myself. Because although I've learned a release, I still know me. You know what I'm saying? I know he's Mike Turner: Yeah. Mhm. Dink: in there. Mike Turner: That's powerful, dog. Like like most people don't know that. Like we gotta know when to walk away. And it ain't it's not people may see that as a sign of weakness, especially if you're being confronted by another man. Like in your mind like I will kill you. But Dink: Listen, bro. Mike Turner: that's but now I'm gonna go to jail. I'm gonna be my Dink: Yeah. Mike Turner: my daughter's gonna be without a father, my wife's gonna be without like that stuff goes through your mind. So like let me just turn around and walk away because it ain't worth it. So recognizing that is so crucial. And a lot of men don't because you see they go they dive right into that. you said something earlier too, like I think it's so important for like one of the reasons for this podcast is just for men to have just space to talk about things. But I also want women to to listen because we don't talk about it enough, men and women. Like we're bla like, especially black men and black women. Blackness is probably we have in common. We understand the struggle that we go through, but their struggle as a woman in corporate America is different than our struggle as black men in corporate America. But we just assume that we know but we don't know. And we have to talk about it more. And it's it's sometimes, you know, bringing up the subject is I had a one one person Dink: I agree. Mike Turner: say, I'm I'm asking, I asked a question about Dr. Bryant. Dink: Yeah. Mike Turner: Like, I asked some women, does Dr. Bryant set do you feel like she sets you back? And I guess they got offended by me asking this question because now they feel like They have to prove themselves at work to everybody. Now they're trying to prove myself to me. No, I'm trying to understand your thought process because I think, for example, Stephen A. Smith sets us back as brothers. Dink: Ha ha. Mike Turner: So I just want to know what the mindset of an educated woman is when somebody like that comes up. Do you what are your emotions that you're going through when you see that? And it's hard for them to express that. So it's like. that but we have to collectively have these conversations so we understand what each other is going through to be there to support one another. And for some reason it's hard for both parties and we gotta get over that. Dink: It's a heavy thought, bro. And I I'm right there with you. Again, my my journey is unique, man. I was raised by a single mom. So I watched my mom's journey. I watched her interactions with my father, who was a substance abuser, who was a super dope. He was the most talented cat who never learned it about himself. You know what I'm saying? Didn't know a stranger, but he had these relationships with drugs and alcohol and poverty that destroyed our our childhood experience. So I watched my mom deal with that. I watched my mom deal with authority in the workplace because she didn't have a college degree, how she was marginalized. You know what I'm saying? And then I come into this this home and now I'm the father with daughters. And so I'm I'm trying to be thoughtful about their interactions with a man with authority, advocating for themselves. How do I build strong black women who are independent but also also interdependent, who can take care of themselves, but they also know how to be in relationship with a black man and or a white man, whoever they decide to spend their life with, another man and be partners, be co-designers of an experience, because we'll never be able to authentically communicate what the experience of any woman is, regardless of their race, religion, background, because we're men. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: I can't even articulate what is experience to be a white man. You know what I'm saying? All I know is what this brown face, his big old head, round head experiences. And it's so crazy. Man, I I really I love it, but I hate it. Because I have still embraced my lived experience. It's so funny when I wear my Jays and my jumper, and I'm a big guy. People interact with me. They don't know Dr. Dinkins is unrealistic. Underneath the hoodie and the J's. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: So I get this energy, but then when they ask me who I am and what I do, to see their face and energy change, Mike Turner: Yeah. Dink: it's so dope, right? I just love Mike Turner: Uh-huh. Dink: it, man. Because we stereotype and the world teaches us these untruth, these narratives that I think it's our responsibility to debunk. And we don't create opportunities for the woman and the man. To talk about difference in a healthy way Mike Turner: Right. Dink: before it turns into conflict or this Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: internal struggle or wrestle for identity, affirmation, acknowledgement of our journeys. And so I think we have there's an opportunity to create these dialogues so that one, we can respect each other's journey and perspectives, not Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: for like we gotta compete with each other, but partner so that we can create. create healthy families, man, that thrive together rather than deal with all this conflict and division Mike Turner: Yep. Dink: in our homes. Mike Turner: No, you've you're right on. So that's that's definitely a goal that yes, I want men to have this safe space to talk and learn that we have to talk about it, but also maybe it's a catalyst that ignite women to understand some of the stuff that we're going through that we're afraid to talk to them about because we don't want to be seen as weak. So let's go. Let's do it. Hey, we're gonna work Dink: You should do a panel. Let me come be on it. Web main panel. Let's talk about it. Mike Turner: We're gonna work on that. We're gonna hey, we're gonna work on that. All right. So Dink: Yeah. Mike Turner: we real quick, we're gonna do this rapid fire question round, what Dink: Yeah. Mike Turner: I w I like to call locker room versus classroom, all right? So you could be quick with the answer or you could elaborate on it little bit, all right. Dink: Do it. Let's do it. Mike Turner: So which is harder, coaching a losing football team or leading a school full of teenagers? Dink: And I would I would say probably harder loop leading a school full of teenagers. And because the stakes are much higher, right? football, we survive, track we survive. If we don't do well for teens, we we can set them up for generational failure. You know what I'm saying? So the stakes Mike Turner: Mm. Yeah. Dink: are much higher. the long-term outcomes are much greater. And so I think that pressure alone is much harder when you know what's at stake. Mike Turner: I said, all right, all right. I hear you. That's I I agree with that. Would you rather deal with an angry parent or an angry coach? Angry Dink: You know, I've dealt with both man. I would say parent. You know, I've had some angry coaches in my day, man. And I've taken it, you know, with parents. bro. They're not, they're not, and I get it. I Mike Turner: And they're not easy to deal with. You can at least talk to a parent. Dink: get it. Parents, I've learned how to leverage my own journey, man, to get empathy and partnership with them, right? So when they come, I start with I work for you. So let's figure out what your what your need is and let's address the need. And what typically happens is I get an angry parent who becomes a partner with me, you know, because I want them to have what they need. I want their child to be successful. At this moment, they got an un unmet need, unmet expectation. Let me help you meet that need. Mike Turner: Awesome, awesome. What is the one thing a football coach says that would get a principal in trouble today? Dink: Ha ha! Man, it's so funny, man. one of my co coach coach Randy Melvin, man, was my position coach at Purdue University. He's like a father to me, taught me a whole lot, man, about family football. He would say to us at bowl games, he'd say, he'd say, drink the first. Sip the second, say no to the third. Mike Turner: Ha Dink: If Roosevelt Covey can hear that, man, he'll probably li Ike Moore will probably roll out of their beds, man. But he would say, Drink the first, sip the second, say no to the third. Cause he recognized we were young, man. But We were young in these streets, in these bowl games they give you a thousand bucks, say don't die, don't get locked up. You know what I mean? Mike Turner: Yeah. Pr a principal definitely can't say that. Definitely not. All right. Now here. What is the funniest thing a student has ever said to you that you could not laugh at in that moment? Dink: thing a student has ever said to me. I had a student got put out of class because they told a teacher her breath stink and Mike Turner: Ha. Dink: Could not laugh in the moment, but I had experienced that breath multiple occasions. And it was on fire all the time. So I had to be a responsible adult, but I am dying on the inside. And so I could Mike Turner: hilarious. Dink: couldn't laugh, bro. I had to coach the young man, but it was funny. Mike Turner: All right. Put you on the spot with your teammates now, with your Purdue teammates. All Dink: Yeah. Mike Turner: right. Which Purdue teammate would have would have made the best principal and which one should never be allowed near the principal's office? Dink: That's good, man. I would say Roosevelt Coven would probably have been an amazing principal, man. Rosie, that was my brother. He's he one of the greatest leaders, led by example, fired us up, held us accountable. I think he would have been an amazing, amazing principal, man. probably the the teammate who I wouldn't have was Chukie Nwokorie. So that that was Mike Turner: Yeah. Dink: my brother, man, and my my My locker roommate. He's 49. I'm fifty. Loving brother. But boy, he get triggered, man. He snatch you up. And he used to get on me all the time. All the time, man. So he probably a beautiful human. I probably his triggers, I don't know that I would put him in front of teachers or students, Mike Turner: Yeah. Dink: man. He'd probably get him in some trouble. Mike Turner: all right. All right. What is the one lesson from football that every teacher should learn? Dink: Yeah man. Practice, practice, practice. our coaches, my coaches were ts always driving the importance of quality practice to improve skill. I think teachers, we put information in front of students and we expect them to master after one opportunity to practice, right? I give Mike Turner: Mm. Yeah. Dink: you one lesson, I teach you how to do it. Practice it one time. I expect you to understand it. Now, students need multiple opportunities for practice. We practice the same drills every single day for months at a time. Off season, practice, practice, practice. So game time, it was muscle memory, man. Boom! You know, you didn't your body wasn't even thinking about it. Teachers don't necessarily operate that way and I think it has a significant impact on skill development for students. So that would be the lesson. Mike Turner: All right, last one. Which the one lesson from teaching every football coach needs? Dink: Yeah. I would say football coaches could probably benefit from some form of empathy without enablement, right? So most coaches had a level of success in the sport themselves, right? Most. There's some that are coaching ain't never touched that sport, you know. But I I for the most part, most coaches I have engaged play the sport. and with that comes a high level of expectation, which I think is important. But I think there needs to be empathy without enablement, right? So Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: I expect you to go in, I expect you to work hard. When you don't meet the expectation, hold you accountable. But let me be let me provide some empathy to say, listen, you didn't get it this time. We'll get it next time. Accountability, but empathy, I think, will be a great added value. with students or players in this day. Mike Turner: Awesome. I love it. Love it. All right. Hey, you know, it's Dink: Some good questions, bro. Mike Turner: I come up with him somehow. All right. So Dink: Yeah bro, you doing it. You doing it. Mike Turner: we didn't talk about your exact dissertation, but this is the one last thing, last thing of the of the of this convo. Your dissertation was an investigation on teachers' emotional intelligence and the relationship between the behavior of African American male students in urban schools. So your life as a child, as a teenager taught you one thing, college taught you another, your education and professional experiences, that's four different areas of of life that you've kind of experienced and learned from. It's the f this the final question. Based off all that, what do black boys actually need? Dink: They need a lot, man. I think all children need a lot. Black boys specifically, I didn't share a lot about my baby brother. My baby brother was an all-American football player, all-state wrestler, beautiful human, been out of prison for the last 15 years. Because school, when he no longer provided value as an athlete, kind of threw him away, right? Went to prison, they diagnosed and bipolar schizophrenic in prison. They should have figured it out in high school, middle school, elementary school. So boys need positive relationships, they need high levels of expectation with the same level of support to meet those expectations. They need an opportunity to explore their emotional journeys. And then they need to be taught the skills to manage those emotions in positive ways. The world has pigeonholed many black boys as athletes, as musicians. We're really in the arts, arts, athletics. nobody ever said, Dink, and you probably gonna be a principal, a school leader, a teacher, a coach. No, I was gonna be the athlete. And so Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: it took this long journey of exploration to see, yeah, those skills are transferable. And I've used them in the education space, in the business sector, in my family. I've used those, but we need early exposure and dialogue to make sense of the The unique unicorns that we are, so that I can begin this journey of self-exploration early rather than have to go through six months of depression, of unemployment, because I don't know what I'm supposed to do, because nobody helped me to unpack those skills early on and make those connections. You did. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Now, yes and no question, it seems seems to be simple. Is that what the Center for Empowering Education is helping teachers be equipped to do? Dink: That's great question, man. I'm serving school districts from DC to California. I learned this on my journey. Schools do a lot of work with children, but we don't do enough work with the adults that serve children. We really don't have a child issue in our nation. We have an adult issue, man. And that's a very, I say that responsibly, right? Because parents give their children all that they have. But we don't always equip parents to provide their children with the conversations, with the character development, with the resilient preparation to endure hard things and overcome them. And then we send them to school and we don't equip teachers with the emotional intelligence to manage the emotional journeys of children. So when we're triggered, we use discipline to respond to children rather than intervention. And help children build the skills so that they can be successful. That's why we have prisoner pipelines. That's why adults are frustrated, not just because of the behavior of the child, but because they lack the skill to provide the child what they need real time. And so that's what I do. That's what my team does. We go and we provide teachers, social workers, counselors. Watch this mic. I've I've created frameworks now for teachers, social workers, counselors. Now I have emotionally inclusive leadership to help the principals. Who are dysregulated, Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Dink: who don't recognize that I went through three years of school to become a principal. Nobody ever told me how to manage my emotional triggers, and I'm suspending kids rather than have conversations and coaching moments for them. Now I got emotionally inclusive home, so we can build skills in the crib with parents so they can create emotionally safe spaces and the house because nobody ever taught us to do that, man. So that's exactly what we do. We've done it since 2018. The work gets bigger. My team is getting larger. And I get to walk away from a keynote or a year-long relationship with the school or district as that little boy. who is creating in schools what I needed for myself. And I don't think there's any greater fulfillment than that, bro. That I can leave feeling like I left them with the resources, strategies, and relationships that they can go be for that black boy what he needs. Mike Turner: Man. Ding, man, I'm so glad that that we had this conversation. You you you threw some some really great stuff out there. I'm so glad that you took the time to have this conversation. I think it's gonna be a a great lesson for everybody. so I truly appreciate you, man. You doing a wonderful work. You're doing God's work. So I've learned more about you researching and getting prepared for this this conversation than I now it's my job to make sure we have this regular conversation check in more often outside of this podcast. Dink: Yeah, Mike, man. It's it's been a humbled appreciation, man. The the working platform that you're building, man, and allowing us to have these conversations is transformative. The world needs to hear the conversations that you're having with some super dope humans. I'm honored and grateful, man. I I really am. I'm thankful. Let's let's connect more outside of this moment. I need you, bro. Mike Turner: Yes. For sure. For sure. You got my number. Text me after this so I got your got so I got your number and we're gonna definitely stay in contact. So Dink: Let's do it. Mike Turner: with that said, I appreciate everybody. Thank you for for listening. Until next time.