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Feminist Movie Friday: Death Becomes Her · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Smith and welcome to stuff
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: I've never told your production if I heart radio.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: Wow my introduction. Okay, so just to peek behind the curtains.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: I think Annie has already alluded to this because we
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: have been kind of mia this week. Seattle, which we
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: went on for my birthday trip in September it is
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: now October fourth four, not only gave me a delightful
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: time in such great views, but also COVID. So I
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: have been struggling a little bit this week. I will
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: say it has not been as bad as the previous
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: COVID episode, but it has affected me to the point that, yes,
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: I have gotten an ultra stuffy or sexy, low key voice.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: That very deep sound that you hear it is my voice. Apologies,
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: but it also sounds like I'm very stuffed up. So again,
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: apologies ASMR. Unlike the ones people have requested, this is
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: against your will, and I apologize, but as you know,
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: we have to give you the content. We want to
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: give you this content, and I'm actually pretty excited because
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: we've talked about this movie for so long, to the
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: point that Annie thought we had already done an episode.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I I thought we had because you, I believe
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: it told me so much about it. I watched it, Yes,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: and I knew I had watched it, and I was like,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: does that mean we did an episode on it or
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: was I just.
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: Doing that anywhere? Like I'm interested in this, let me
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: see it.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you took a whole big list of my nineties
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: classics and Death Becomes Her Yes, that is the movie
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: is one of them that we talked about for a while.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, we need to do this, even though
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: where it lies under like feminist movies, it is not.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: I guess we could twist it and say sure, sure, sure,
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: because there are some conversations around it that I love
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: that has become of it. But in the end, it's like, oh,
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: this didn't really age well if you're watching it just
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: from one perspective. But we'll get into that in a minute.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: And for one of this month's movies, yes, I mean
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: we're gonna do a few. I have a feeling at
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: least two, because you know, it's October is the spooky season,
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: one of Annie's favorites in mine too, for so many
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: other reasons, not just because of horror. I know, don't
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: get me any but you know, false season, False season
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: just feels good anyway, So we decided again to jump
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: into this classic. Yes, as you may suspect, it is
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: a Sam's Choice movie that again has not really aged well,
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: but at the same time has kind of fought against
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: what you would think. Yeah, yeah, so before we start
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: content warning, there is of course murder and death, sexism, agism,
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: fat phobia, and all things the early nineties used as
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: comedic relief that has not translated well, I will say,
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: but does have a lot of thoughts and conversations around
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: And yeah, again we're talking about the cult classic that
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: becomes her with icons Meryl Streep, Goldiehn and Bruce Willis, Yes, surprising,
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: and I do want to talk about the fact that
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: their acting was what really carries this movie. Like, even
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: with all of the controversy, you have a listers in
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: here that just brings about such great chemistry with unlikely characters.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: So Meryl Streep playing this very comedic character was different
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: for her at this point. Bruce Willis coming out of
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: doing all the diehards to this character was very like
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: shocking for so many and they did a great job.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: And the movie was written by David Cope and Martin
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: Donovan and directed by Robert Zis, which was coming around
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: with all of the back that the Future who framed
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Roger Rabbit, which I didn't realize was his movie, But
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: you know, we've talked about that too, and I think
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: we need to come back to that.
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: Have you watch that? Was that on your list? It's
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: too scary? No, I should rewatch it.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: But when I saw it as a kid, it's scary.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: Perfect for October.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: I love that. This is one of those movies that
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: are not scary, but it is scary to you. And
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: that's perfect because I have several of those. I have
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: several of those. And the reviews, well, they were mixed.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: Rotten Tomatoes was sitting at like fifty five percent, and
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: even Siskel and Ebert and these are old school movie critics,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: I hope, you know, but I might just be that
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: old because I know there they are. The company is
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: still around because Robert Ebert has died since then, and
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: so as Siskel, I believe, but like well anyway, but
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: they gave him a thumbs down, both of them did.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: But the movie made quite a bit of money, and
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: they even won an a Academy Award and a BAFTA
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: for their visual effects and not so surprising, Streep was
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: nominated for a Golden Globe, but she didn't win, so
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: you know, heartbreak of heartbreaks. So let's jump into the movie.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: We are introduced to the main characters Madeline Ashton or
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: Mad's played by Meryl Streep, Helen hell Sharp played by
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: Goldie Hawn, and doctor Ernest Menville played by Bruce Willis,
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: and the latter are attending mass play which is not
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: getting a good reception, but Ernest is smitten. Ernest, who
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: is currently engaged to Helen, tries to convince her that
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: he would never leave her for Mads, which is Helen's
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: greatest fear and kind of a test she puts on
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: her men because they have left her for her and
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: even though he said na, na, no, never gonna happen, alas,
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: it is a lie. As we soon see him and
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: Madeline get married, leaving Helen behind, we didn't see that
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: Helen has not taken it well and has gotten lost
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: in her obsession with her hate for Madeleine accompanied by
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: her love for Frosting and cats of course, of course cats.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: Helen is then hospitalized and undergoing intense therapy where her
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: obsession continues and drives all the other patients mad as well.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: Mad Mads, you know what I'm saying. But then we
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: cut to see how miserable Madeleine and Earnest are, and
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Madeline is under constant scrutiny and fear as she grows
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: older and is no longer in the acting world or
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: welcomed anyway. And Earnest, a once promising plastic surgeon, is
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: now an alcoholic mortician, and by the way, they hate
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: each other, of course, but they get an invite to
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: Helen's book release party, which throws Madeline down the road
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: to trying to look her best, or at least better
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: than Helen, trying to look younger and making Helen jealous. Unfortunately,
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: Madeleine has hit the limit of the treatment she is
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: wanting because her causing her to lose it. But she
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: does receive a business card with the name of a
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: wealthy socialite, Lisa vond Ruman, who works miracle for her clients.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: Wink wink, jump to Madeline in Earnest attending Helen's party,
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: where they see Helen for the first time in years,
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: and she has changed remarkably and looks even younger. More
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: glamorous and way skinnier, y'all. The fat suit actually, in
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: comparison to the other fat suits I've seen recently, is better,
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: but is still really really offensive. Yeah, both of those things,
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: but whatever. Here Helen begins her groundwork of destroying Madeline
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: by turning Earnest against her. Yes, we see all these
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: in the behind the scenes, but Madeleine, quite shaken from
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: her encounter with Helen, goes to get comfort in her
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: much younger lover, who also rejects her and tells her
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: to find someone in her own age. Essentially really sad.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: She leaves in distress, but finds Liesel's card and rushes
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: to Liesel's mansion for a fix. Here we meet Liesel
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: played by beautiful Isabella Rosalini. If you know, you know.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: She gives her eerie spiel about the Fountain of Youth
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: and for a large some of money and gives it
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: to Madeleine, and as she she takes the potion, she
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: then gives Madeleine this morning quote, take care of yourself.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: You and your body are going to be together a
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: long time. Be good to it. Also, she needs to
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: disappear in ten years, as she'll be immortal and her
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: looks won't change, and then also talks about others who
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: have popped up too early to cause a stir so
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: don't do that. Soon we see that the potion works
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: and she is excited to go live her new life,
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: but all the while, Helen has convinced Ernest that Madeleine
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: is the problem and reason why she and he can't
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: be together and why his life is so miserable, and
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: the only way they can be together is to kill Madeleine,
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: which Ernest agrees to, but plans go awry as he
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: and Madelene get into an argument as soon as she
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: gets home, and he pushes her down the stairs very
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: dramatic fall, and thinking he has killed her, calls Helen
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: to come up with a new plan. But uh oh,
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: she isn't dead. Nope, she's just definitely broken like neck,
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: everything's broken twisted. After calling her a miracle, Ernest tries
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: to take her to the hospital, where the on care
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: doctor dies from shock of seeing her, and they return
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: home where he tries to fix her, but Helen has arrived,
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: not knowing that Madeleine was not quite dead, and they
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: get into a fight, with Madeline shooting her in the stomach,
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: but of course, Helen is also not dead, and they
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: discover they have both taken the potion, and Ernest realize
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: that they're not miracles, but they used magic, which is,
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: you know, kind of the same thing. After a long
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: fight scene, long hilarious fight scene with a hole in
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: her stomach, so many things, the ladies hash out their
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: differences and come to Ernest to ask them to fix
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: them because they are in quite a state, which he does,
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: but Stacey, he's leaving them both. He's not going to
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: be a part of this, and after they are fixed,
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: they realize they need Ernest if they ever need a
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: touch up or any of the fixings, So hit him
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: in the head with a vase because you know, why
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: not and take him to Lisel to convince him to
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: take the potion. But when he wakes up, he's sitting
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: with Liesol, who tries to talk him into taking the potion,
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: but he realizes that he doesn't want to live forever
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: and that that type existence isn't natural or healthy, and
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: he tries to escape with the potion. He tries to leave.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: All the while there's a giant party with all the
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: people who has also taken the potion. James z Grenda Garbo, Elvis,
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: you know, all those people. Soon he's able to escape,
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: though Madeleine and Helen try to get him back. Then
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: we cut to a final scene at Ernest's funeral where
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: they talk about how eternal life for him was his
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: legacy and his children, and we see Helen and Madeline
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: in the back laughing and cackling, but it is Ernest
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: who has the last last as they are stuck together
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: miserably and crumbling forever. Literally they fall apart. Yeah, the end.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: So I felt like there were so many things, but
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: it's such a fantastic idea of a movie that that
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: really did come off in such a way that it
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: was huge for I think just being that cult classic.
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: Again.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: The nineties gave us some really great movies, including things
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: like Beetlejuice in this and I just thought about Beetle
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Juice because we were talking about Believe it's Monica Blucci,
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: who I think she's kind of on that same level
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: as like Isabella Rosalini of being this iconic sex symbol
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: that just kind of turns everybody's heads like who is that?
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: But anyway, but there's these movies have like garnered all
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: this attention because they were revolutionary, I believe at the time.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: So with that, we're gonna talk about themes and tropes,
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: and it sounds I think the way the outline is stated,
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: it sounds like it's just hate for the movie. But
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: when I rewatched it, realizing how much I loved it
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: as a kid. To this this is one of those
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: many things that fed into the nineties strope of I'm
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: not that kind of girl conversation and competing with girls
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: as a thing. And I know that's been around for
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: a while, but I feel like the nineties and eighties
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: really pushed that hardcore. Even though it kind of hash
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: itself out, it really was like, h and the only
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: sane one we see here is a dude, And let's
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: be honest, the director doesn't have the best reputation when
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: it comes to the women he directs, So to me,
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: it was intentional and there was a lot of conversations,
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: a lot of articles talking about that. But I feel
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: like women and we're going to talk about like the
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: queer community really took it back and was like, Nah,
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: this isn't about you. It's for us. Meryl Streep and Goldiehan,
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Isabella Rosellini is for us. So I think that's really changed.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: But you know, we can't not talk about some of
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: these stropes that really fed into this era, which includes
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: women hating women, like the frenemies. The frenemies really came
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: through and I don't think that term had started when
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: this movie was about. But I mean this is quintessential
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: frenemies calling each other, mads calling each other. Hell come on,
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: like that's an immediate turn two. And yeah, always competing
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: with each other. That is the number one from Jump,
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: like using Madeline as a as a test for her
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: Men's the whole thing.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I will say like for me because
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: I didn't the first time I watched this was last year, Right,
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: I do think that this there's a lot of really
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: interesting conversation in like dark satire and humor here that
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: we can relate to.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: But it is got that problematic layer also in real life.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: But I would say, like their frenemyness of like it's
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: very comical almost of how Hell's Helen was, like rewatching
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: scenes of Madeline getting murdered, she done like she was obsessed.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: And we've talked about this before. Really Bruce Willis's character
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: who did come out looking like he was the best
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: one of them. He's the one that like they should
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: have been mad at him, right, but she was just
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: this idea of Madeline had ruined her life and kind
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: of those machinations she did of I'll tell them both like, oh,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: I'm not mad at you, he's the one that did it,
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: and then telling Bruce Willis's character, oh, I'm not mad
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: at you, she's the one that did it, and then
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: having this whole like murder plot.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: It's a very exaggerated, of course, example of kind of
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: that idea, but it is comical in the sense of
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: I love how they have their like shovel fight and
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: then they're kind of like, oh.
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: They like talking out and all this time, okay, which
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: kind of notes like if you watch New Girl, this
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: is where I think it's funny because they talk about
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: the fact that dudes hit each other and then they're okay,
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: this is that kind of same notion that violence is
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: in the actual answer because everything's fine, and they're like,
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: that's not how that works.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: It's like when violence get involved, people die, and you know,
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: here the people die. They just couldn't die and they
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: had to do this. So it was interesting to that
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: women hating women. I think this was something specific because
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: I was thinking about this when I was watching it,
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: and any maybe you weren't thinking about this too, that
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: monsters don't have any redeeming factors, and here the two
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: women have no redeeming factors to the audience, and they're
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: not supposed to. In fact, articles had written that this
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: was the point from the writer's perspective. They did not
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: want you to like him, that this was their Frankenstein,
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: and Frankenstein is not the victim, although it turns out
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: he is. Like people really like, yeah, yeah, you do.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: But in the end, like this was that idea is
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: that you can't there there's no redeeming quality. They're just shady,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: even at his funeral, his laugh that she's laughing at
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: them because they can't understand the greater wisdom that he
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: is given.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Right, right, And it's also like, I think that's part
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: of the reason why it's become a cult classic, because
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: it's kind of fun to see like these women just
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: be terrible. But yeah, like the other side of that
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: is it's the very tropy. Women just want to get
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: married and stay young forever, and they didn't care about
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: him at all. They just wanted the man, and we're
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: jealous of each other right when they had him, and
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: then when they had him, be like, oh, you're ruthless.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: Like so I can see why.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: It's like a really fun thing and I like, I
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: had a good time watching it, but it is also
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: kind of like yeah, well yeah.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: And then another theme the obsession with youth, not men though,
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: because you know, they're the wise ones that understand this
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: is the growth. But I found it interesting. So they're
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: supposed to be in their late forties or fifties, and
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: then they are they're around the same age.
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: I think.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: Okoliehan ended up being like forty seven, Merl Street ended
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: up being like forty four, which I was like, wait, me,
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Alstt was younger than Goldiehn, which threw me off for
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: some reason. And then uh, Bruce Willis was the youngest
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: of them all and he was like thirty seven, and
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: I was like, really, balding does not help because Goldiehan,
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: my gosh, they are both in their late forties in
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: this movie, and I'm like, they're older than me, but
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: they look younger than me. I'm like, again, I understand
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Hollywood make up all those things, so I get that
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: but still they looked amazing. Then to me in my head,
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: they were not in their forties late forties. None that
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: matters because it doesn't really matter, but like you can't
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: always tell, obviously, but like they are supposed to be
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: around that age. But with that we all understand about
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: like like they don't really talk about the biological clock,
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: which I'm really glad they don't, but it is said.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: And I thought it was funny that when he dies
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: he ended up having like seven children, Yeah, like a
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: lot of children. And it was like he's supposed to
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: be also in his fifties and found his young wife,
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: and I'm like, huh, so in himself with his legacy,
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: he still had to have like a youthful interaction in
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: order to have that. So even though he didn't chase that,
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: he does chase that. He chases immortality through his children,
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: which is also oftentimes a mistake as well.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and even the at his funeral, the preacher outright
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: says that.
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: But I also thought it was interesting.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of illusions that are very purposeful to
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: stuff like Frankenstein, but also like God and him being
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: like the god of like he can grant this youth
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: and they're so like determined to have him because they
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: want to always look young.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: But there are a lot of allusions to him being
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: like god.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true, and I did think that again though
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: they did say men are not obsessed with youths youth,
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: they are the wise one, but does says almost they're mascalated.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: So it took him being even more masculated, like outright
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: being talked down on by women for him to grow
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: some balls. And I'm putting in quotes even though they
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: don't say that in order to like make him that
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: wise guy. And I'm like, this is some insult.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: So much of that was present a lot of our
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: popular It's true.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: A lot of people ate that up.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: You you know, like, yeah, I mean he killed he
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: kills Batline because she's she's being real mean, but not.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: She was, I don't understand.
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: But he's like, oh, I'm finally standing up for myself.
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: I'll kill her.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: And then everybody kind of like roots for that a
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: little bit. They're like, oh, like it's.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: Very yeah yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, m hmmm, so
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: we see it.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: I'm like, this is real in this day, and it's
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: this is real bad, real bad. Another theme that I'm
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: gonna put there because I saw this phrase a lot
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: when I was reading about this movie. But the Perils
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: of Mortal Sins again kind of do the same reference
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: about like being God playing God and him playing being
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: the God. Is the idea that vanity obviously is one
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: of the biggest things that women specifically have and a
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: fall prey to and succumb to, which again men don't know.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: It's not necessarily about youth or vanity, but about immortality,
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: which I found interesting because that's kind of that reference
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: to Elvis and James Dean, like they don't necessarily care
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: about staying young because they all die young. Essentially, it's
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: just about that immortality.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: It seems right, And I it's hard to watching this
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: now to know exactly like the intent, but I did
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: feel like that, like I said, there was a lot
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: of dark humor and satire and acknowledgment of women. We've
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: been trained to do this, We've been trained to our
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: value is in our our youth and our beauty and
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: fighting over that. And I did think there was a
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: lot of interesting commentary around that, which we've also talked
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: about in a ton of other things.
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: But like.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: It's one of those conversations about women getting ahead doing
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: what is maybe in quotes like anti feminist, but it
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: is the system we live in. It's like that kind
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: of reality we live in of yeah, getting cosmetic surgery
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: or what have you, all of the conversations we have
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: around that where we know, like that can in our society,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: it's hard to blame someone for doing that, Yeah, But
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: seeing it in such a like campy, like escalated manner,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: it's just interesting. I had a lot of thoughts about, like, huh,
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: because it's acknowledging that that's true, but it's also kind
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: of making fun of it.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: Sure, I'm not sure if that's the right take, right,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: but high start humored satire, so right.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: I think there was definitely a conversation about who was
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: making fun of at who's Yeah, and that was one
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: of the bigger conversations like what they were trying to
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: do versus what it happened, which is great, what happened
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: was better results to this and understanding that yes this
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: is satirical, but were you actually made fun of? Right?
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: And under that perils of mortal sin, we see the
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: sin of comparison, because again this is back to Hell's
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: a mess, just competing with each other non stop, even
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: the pity party. You're the one who started this. You're
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: the one who were being with me. You're the one
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: who made fun of me. You're the one who took
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: my men, like all these things back and forth, even
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: in the hashing out, they were trying to do that,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: and then also at the end they were comparing you
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: the one. I'm the one who has carried this out,
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: you know, like the constant back and forth.
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: Mm hmm.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: But I thought that was also an interesting part of
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: this again, like when it comes to a theological look,
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: even though it's not a lot theologically, but it is,
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: there's an underlying depth to it, line to it. Yeah,
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: but yeah, And with that, yes, this is one of
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: the movies that people will say is a queer cult
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: classic and queer icon for many. Here's a quote from
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Pace magazine from writer B. Panther who wrote this article
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: titled the queer immortality of Death Becomes Her. They right,
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: So what is it about Death Becomes Her that allows
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: for queer enjoyment? How can there be anything queer in
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: a film which, according to the screenwriters, has don't be
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: a natural as its moral center. There's a long history
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: of monsters and queers identifying with each other. Both are
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: called a natural because they defy social boundaries said to
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: be found within a divine order. Monsters like the ones
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: made by Victor Frankenstein or painted by Arnest Menvil walk
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: the supposedly firm line between living and dead, and queer
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: people similarly skirt hardened sexual and gender lines. It's a
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: logical link that a queer appreciation of death becomes or
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: begins with a willing identification with its monstrous characters. And
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: they continue to go on to dissect the characters individually
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: and then together and how they fit perfectly into those
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: queer role models that they see so much. And then
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: also the movie has actually been used as themes for
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: shows like RuPaul's Drag Race, And here's a quote from
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: the executive producer of that show about why the movie
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: was appropriate. They're fighting for beauty, they're against the system.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: They're also villains, but we understand their complexity. We root
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: for the undead divas because they're trying to win a
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: game that's rigged against them. And to borrow an apocryphal
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: quote from Ginger Rogers, they sort of have to do
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: it backwards in high Hills, and I have heard that,
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: but yeah, like just coming in conversation about having to
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: spend money to look like something, to meet to someone
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: sat or just to stay relevant in the game, and
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: then to be noticed you have to be then perfectly skinny,
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: perfectly made up and somewhat successful and youthful. So I
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: was like, okay, And of course there's so much warned.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: I talk about again, the depth of the characters conversations
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: with each other and how they cross boundaries, the makeup,
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: the costumes alone, this movie really did open up boundaries
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: that people talked about. Meryl Streep talked about the fact
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: that this will be the only and it was I
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: think the last movie that had so much CGI. She
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: said it was one of the hardest that she has
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: ever done, and it felt like she was just talking
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: to a puppet and it was miserable because she was like,
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: it would be like me talking to a can, talking
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: to pretending like it's Goldie Han. But if I was
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: off by a cinimeter, have to start all over again
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: because my head didn't go backwards in the right place. Yeah,
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: she was just like, I hated it. It was such
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: a great movie, and this movie is, and she says,
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: this is a true depiction of the Hollywood scene and
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: it's obsession with age. So I feel like that's a
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: whole different conversation because you know, we know Meryl Streep
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: has always been very upfront about natural beauty and not
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: wanting to change herself, and she has she has become
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: somewhat controversial because she refused to conform to the norms
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: of what society was telling her, or at least Hollywood
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: was telling her at the time where it was really
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: really big. And then we have Goldie Han who like
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: leans into that and be like, yeah, I did all
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: this work. I love it, I want this from me,
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: and I did this for me, you know, like I
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: love that. This is such a juxtaposition of two actresses
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: who have very open conversations about this about their own
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: body and self. But yeah, it was an interesting take,
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: and it did open up so many doors when it
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: came to realizing how big CG I would be. Of course,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: to day is kind of changed and I don't understand
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: if they did that well for a nineties movie. What
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: happened to the Mummy too?
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: Oh, we don't have time for me to go into
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: the answer but I do know the answer, I will
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: say because I am a big nerd about this kind
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: of stuff. This was one of the first times industrial
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: light and magic. This film was did a skin graft
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: and it was one of the first times they did
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: graphics like this, and Jurassic Park was the next one
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: that they did, So I think that's probably one of
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: the reasons people were like the hill, she's got a poles.
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: Like that.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: It looks so good, like even for the standard. And
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: again I was like, maybe I'm wrong, did I not?
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: No?
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, you can tell it's like older,
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: but it still looks it.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: Looks still good, like into person again. Can we talk about.
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, Samantha, I will, I would be happy to talk about.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: And again, like I was like, maybe this is my
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: COVID brain, maybe I'm in a fox, but what this
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: was really good, Like her head going backwards and then
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: like trying to put it back on. It was so genius.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: And of course it was also probably a compilation of
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: both like legit effects and and the CGI, because you know,
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: we did the contact for Goldie Hans's character to look dead,
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: her eyes and all that, Like, it was genius. The
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: voice that Meryl Streep had to put on or maybe
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: they cgi did, I don't know, to sound like her
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: whole neck was dislocated and like she was a mess.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: But like it was an amazing like new standard for
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: the movies.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: I think, yeah, And it was in a lot of ways.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: It was really fun and atmospheric. This is a good
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: Hellowe movie. I can see it because it's like got
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: this like body horror. It's got all this like twt
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: sting of body parts, but it's like a really campy
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: fun thing. But it's also like got storms constantly rain.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: You've got kind of a castle issues that man. Yeah,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: so it was I had a good time.
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: I had a good time.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: And I have to say I was telling Samantha I
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: rewatched this, uh this time, knowing it was like a
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: queer cult movie, and I was like, oh, I see it.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: But there was a line I believe Isabella Rosealini said
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: something like when your body feels like it's not yours,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: she says something.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, I ney to talk about that
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: her specific character being queer, because it is like very
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: like sexual, but you don't know who is, like who
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: ever is in the room. She fills that void. So
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: if it is Meryl Streep like that sexuality is still
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: very raw and open there, even if it is Bruce Willis.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Honestly was more sexual tension between her and Mertl straight
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: to me than her and Bruce Willis, which I think
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: is another part of that.
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that she again exues all her whole presence
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: is sexuality. That that that immortality, that sin again, that
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: perils of mortal sin. To want that to be that
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: is to be sexual and she is just that sexual being.
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: And for a later date, like larger conversations about queer
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: coding of villains and history of that, but like queer
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: coding of camp and the history of that.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: But I had a good time. I enjoyed it.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: Oh thank you for this journey. And you know what,
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: I sent you that video about that musical yeah, which
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh, this is really hilarious take and
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: it is really insane. We mean, we need to visit this.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: And again I think we need to bring Eves on
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: for that one, because we've talked about it. She and
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: I have talked.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: This is not related to death becomes sir, but but it's.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: One of those things. But I think, of course, of
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: course it is it is also very queer coded, even
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: though it is really troublesome like backwoods bs. And I'm
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: talking about seven Brides for seven Brothers for those who know,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: I think you know, but there is that like, yeah,
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: they were definitely like.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Seven or seven brothers, yes, me, Oh no, well, it
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: does have something I want to talk about that will
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: probably have to be a separate episode, but I've one
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: of the things that anways me the most is the
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: romanticization of Stockholm syndrome.
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: I hate that. Oh yeah, oh yeah, hate that.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Real problematic, real problematic.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: You could talk about the realities of it, but I
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: hate when you romanticize it.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah it is. But I do think there is a
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: death that comes from musical.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: So it happened in Chicago. Looks like April thirtieth to
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: June second of twenty twenty four, which the Broadway version
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: is happening on October twenty third.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: All right, listeners, if you have been get to go,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: oh let us know us. I also know there's a
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: lot of drag shows around. Oh yeah, that comes, sir.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: So yeah, ru Paul did their whole thing, so I
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: need to find out how that went.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: Yes, but listeners.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: If you've participated, seem done any of these things, have
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: thoughts about this, please let us know es. Samantha said,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: we'll probably do two movies this month, but we love
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: horror movies all the time. Are related movies all the time,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: So if you have any suggestions, send them our way.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: You can email us at step Media, moom stuff at
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter at
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: most of the podcasts, or on Instagram and TikTok at
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: Stuff I've Never Told You.
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: We're also on YouTube.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: We have a tea public store, and we have a
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: as always too our super producer Christinia or executive booster.
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: My and or contribute Joey.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks to you for listening Stuff I'll
• 32:59
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• 33:00
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• 33:04
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