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Interbehaviorism · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do. Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do.
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  Speaker 2: I am your host who who is everything and is nothing, Abraham.
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: And I'm your surprisingly Buddhist host Shame.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: that humans and non human animals do, and sometimes we
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: talk about philosophies of science and psychology, and that's the
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: thing that we do.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, and so today we're talking about a philosophy of
• 0:42
  Speaker 4: behaviorism called interbehaviorism. And I'm really excited to unpack this
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  Speaker 4: because it is one of those things that I hear
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  Speaker 4: a lot about and I have read about and I
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  Speaker 4: still go.
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  Speaker 2: Huh yes. So if you're joining us for the first time,
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: then welcome. Don't let the fact that I mentioned that
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: we're talking about pilosophy scare you away. I actually think
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: this is pretty cool and I'm hoping that you will
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: as well. And if not, then we will try and
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: keep a light in fun anyway, and therefore, at the
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: very least you will be entertained somewhat during the discussion.
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: We'll have a good time. We always have a good
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: time here.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: We do have a good time. And if you're a
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: returning person, then welcome back. Thank you for joining us again,
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  Speaker 2: and I hope that you continue to enjoy what you
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• 1:35
  Speaker 2: at the end of this discussion. But this episode releases
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: on April eighth, So Happy Buddha Day everyone.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, how appropriate? Right, mm hmm. It is also Dog
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  Speaker 3: Farting Awareness Day. Oh very aware?
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all, we're aware. It is draw a picture of
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: a bird Day. I approve.
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: Oh, I'm gonna totally do that. Today it's an International
• 1:59
  Speaker 4: Day of Pink.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Is International feng Shue Awareness Day. We should probably do
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: an episode on that.
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, it's actually super interesting, but yes we should.
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: It's International Romani Day.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: Oh good. It is National All is Ours Day, or.
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: As as we would colloquially like to say it, America Day.
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  Speaker 4: It's a national and Panada Day.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Awesome. Let me see. It is Step into the Spotlight Day.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, if you want to sure, it's Training Cards
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  Speaker 4: for grown Ups Day, So go get your Pokemon.
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  Speaker 2: Cards or magic the Gathering cards or magic ooh.
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  Speaker 3: I was trying so hard to see if I could
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  Speaker 3: get the one ring to rule them all and ended
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: up not finding it. But yeah, what a great what
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: a great thing to put in there.
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  Speaker 2: Agreed. It is zoo Lover's Day.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, it's bat Appreciation Day.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: That appreciation week.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: Sorry, you're right, it's the whole week and.
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  Speaker 2: Is also confusing be kind to Spider's Week because bats
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  Speaker 2: will eat them spiders.
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  Speaker 3: I think that's true.
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  Speaker 2: Bads eat spiders. I figure some of them do.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, some of them probably do somewhere.
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  Speaker 4: I am sure there's a species of bad that eats
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: the species of spider somewhere.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's hate week, as in I hate this week,
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: just kidding. Yes, it might be because it's like post
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: spring breaks for like most people where now post spring break,
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: and so that's why I don't know.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, or like a mid year festivus.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: Sure that makes sense. It's National bake Week.
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I love that good stuff. It's National egg salad weeks,
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: so get your rabbit eggs and make some egg salad.
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  Speaker 2: That's right. Gross. It is National Robotics Week. Ooh, and
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: two more to acknowledge really quick. Is that it is
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: national autism or maybe international it's Autism Awareness month. Yes,
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  Speaker 2: and it does also prevent child abuse month.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, super important months. Absolutely.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, good things to know about. Yes, But we don't
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  Speaker 2: just talk about holidays. That's just a thing for fun,
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  Speaker 2: because we're here on a day of the week, and
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  Speaker 2: so are you, and so we can all celebrate together
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  Speaker 2: or privately or whatever. You're more informed now about all
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  Speaker 2: the things, or maybe you already knew, but here we
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  Speaker 2: are describing those holidays before we talk about our subject, which,
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  Speaker 2: as we described up front, is a thing called inter behaviorism. Now,
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  Speaker 2: I think we're ready to start to get started. Am
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  Speaker 2: I am missing anything? Okay? Cool?
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  Speaker 3: Now I feel good. Let's do it.
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  Speaker 2: Okay great. There have been many different approaches to understanding psychology.
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  Speaker 2: It may even be worth unpacking one day all the
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  Speaker 2: different approaches and sort of one cohesive here the disciplines
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  Speaker 2: or fields of psychology type approach, but anyway, one such
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  Speaker 2: approach that is as rooted in natural science as can
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  Speaker 2: be is called inter behaviorism. Now, this is, in my
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  Speaker 2: humble opinion, the best possible conceptualization of psychology and framework
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  Speaker 2: considering psychological phenomenon. It is the most cohesive, comprehensive, and
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  Speaker 2: objective way to do this. Again, in my opinion, I
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  Speaker 2: also think it's super interesting. Whenever I have read the
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  Speaker 2: work of interbehaviorists, I find myself simply green that they
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  Speaker 2: are one hundred percent right about everything that they say,
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  Speaker 2: and that no one has ever been more right. And
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  Speaker 2: it is just one of those weird experiences where it's
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  Speaker 2: like I don't know this, but I read it and
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  Speaker 2: I'm like, yep, m hmm, correct, that is true. You
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  Speaker 2: have said the thing correctly. Yes, yes, So we'll see
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  Speaker 2: if after this discussion you agree. But I do think
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  Speaker 2: that if we do a poor job communicating this and
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  Speaker 2: you don't have the same experience that this is just right,
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  Speaker 2: that is on us because the philosophy is impeccable and
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  Speaker 2: impenetrable and it does not depend on my words to
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  Speaker 2: help it be correct. Although I'm hoping to say it
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  Speaker 2: correctly enough that people have that similar experience that you're like,
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  Speaker 2: oh that is that is yep, I got it, yep, yep.
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  Speaker 4: And so fingers crossed. This episode is very clear as
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  Speaker 4: we go, So we are going to describe interbehavioral principles
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  Speaker 4: assumptions and implications for psychology as a natural science, which
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  Speaker 4: is so funny because I think as behaviorist we hear
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  Speaker 4: that psychology or social sciences are not natural sciences. But
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  Speaker 4: I think this is as close as we're gonna get,
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  Speaker 4: and we're gonna have a good time with it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and this does almost sort of kind of address
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  Speaker 2: that directly. And for those people who are already inter
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  Speaker 2: behaviorists and listening to this, I'm not going to be
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: using all of the jargon in terms you might be
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  Speaker 2: comfortable and familiar with for the sake of the people
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  Speaker 2: who are not comfortable and familiar with those terms, and
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  Speaker 2: I don't think we necessarily need them all to be
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  Speaker 2: able to unpack this. So yes, hopefully I still do
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  Speaker 2: an okay job. And if you have things you would
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  Speaker 2: like to correct or critique or have feedback for me,
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: feel free to let me know. You can email us
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: directly infotwwdpodcast dot com, but that'll probably be more relevant
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  Speaker 2: for as we get to the end of this discussion, I.
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  Speaker 3: Think, yeah, for sure.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, well, let's get into the real content here and
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  Speaker 2: just start with a little bit of background, which is
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  Speaker 2: the inner behaviors of was developed and explored philosophically across dozens,
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  Speaker 2: if not hundreds, of papers and like a dozen or
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  Speaker 2: more books by Jacob Robert Jr. Canter. So Jacob Roberts
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  Speaker 2: is his name, but he went by Jr. He was
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  Speaker 2: born in eighteen eighty eight in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and died
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  Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty four, So if you do the math,
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  Speaker 2: that was a good long life. The guy lived to
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  Speaker 2: be ninety six years old. He died in Chicago, Illinois,
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  Speaker 2: where he spent a good chunk of his career. Originally,
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  Speaker 2: this philosophy he was developing he called organismic psychology, but
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  Speaker 2: didn't particularly care for that name, or maybe somebody else
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  Speaker 2: talked him out of it. I don't know. Point is,
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  Speaker 2: he quickly renamed it to be inter behavioral psychology before
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  Speaker 2: he ever published his first book on the subject. So
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  Speaker 2: that's a little bit of the history. Like he really
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  Speaker 2: was the foundation behind this. Without Canter, that likely never
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  Speaker 2: would have been an interbehavioral psychology, at least not quite
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  Speaker 2: like this. But he's the one we essentially have to
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  Speaker 2: thank for what has grown out of this. And then,
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  Speaker 2: of course many of his students and contemporaries have continued
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  Speaker 2: to explore and describe and contribute to the philosophy and
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  Speaker 2: application of this field.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: I also appreciate that he made sure to publish under JR.
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  Speaker 4: Cantor because it makes it sound like he is like
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  Speaker 4: an Elvish author like Tolkien, Like he's like the Tolkien
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  Speaker 4: of behavior science, which I really enjoy.
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  Speaker 2: So yeah, I just needed one more R JR R.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I know that'd have been great. What it missed opportunity.
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  Speaker 4: Also, inter behaviorism is a much better term than organismic psychology.
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  Speaker 3: Good mood.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, good, move on that, I agree completely.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, good choice.
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  Speaker 4: Now into behaviorism isn't actually all that complicated. Where it
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  Speaker 4: starts to feel complicated, we think, is in the fact
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  Speaker 4: that it is so comprehensive, it can sometimes feel as
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  Speaker 4: though it doesn't prescribe any particular direction or practical action
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  Speaker 4: for a given situation. So it feels complicated because there's
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  Speaker 4: a lot, but it accounts for everything, which makes it
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  Speaker 4: less complicated.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Like the breakdown of it is fairly straightforward.
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  Speaker 2: The issue is because of the nature of how it
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  Speaker 2: sort of relates to different concepts, it can feel very
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  Speaker 2: vague to the point of like, Okay, that's cool. What
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  Speaker 2: do I do with that?
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  Speaker 3: I do with this?
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  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I think some mentor behaviorists, maybe all of
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  Speaker 2: them would disagree, but I think that is probably way
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  Speaker 2: where it feels elusive to some people.
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  Speaker 3: Sure, that makes sense, That's okay.
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  Speaker 2: I think we'll do our best to unpack it here, because,
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  Speaker 2: as I said, I actually I don't think the over
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  Speaker 2: underlying sort of concept of it is really all that hard,
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  Speaker 2: but it's interesting in ways to apply it to and
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  Speaker 2: understand various phenomenon of interest. Before we get into the definition,
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  Speaker 2: it is useful to distinguish this philosophical approach, the one
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  Speaker 2: that underlies inter behaviorism, from other philosophical approaches to psychology.
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  Speaker 2: The three that we're going to tackle here are mentalism,
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  Speaker 2: not the magic trick mentalism, sure, sure, but sort of
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  Speaker 2: a philosophy mentalism, structuralism, which I think could also just
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  Speaker 2: be called mechanism, sure, and then behaviorism and inter behaviorism.
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  Speaker 2: So Cantor specifically wrote distinguishing these things from inter behavioral
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  Speaker 2: psychology and from each other.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that makes sense. And so there's oh, there's
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  Speaker 3: one you didn't include.
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  Speaker 4: That's marketism, which is usually usually indicated by ads.
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  Speaker 3: So we're back.
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  Speaker 4: We're talking about these different philosophical approaches to psychology, and
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  Speaker 4: the first one we're going to talk about is this
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  Speaker 4: idea of mentalism. And mentalism is the approach that starts
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  Speaker 4: with the observation of a behavior and then the interpretation
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  Speaker 4: that the observed behavior has an internal mental cause. It
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  Speaker 4: sometimes proceeds linearly, where mental activity happens, actionable behavior follows.
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  Speaker 4: It sometimes proceeds in parallel where mental activity and actionable
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  Speaker 4: behavior happened at the same time.
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  Speaker 3: And it sometimes.
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  Speaker 4: Proceeds retroactively or proceeds retroactively, so actionable behavior happens.
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  Speaker 3: And then the mental event follows.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not really a clear way that these things
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  Speaker 2: sort of happen with respect to each other. However you
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  Speaker 2: slice it up, mental events and actionable behaviors are different
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  Speaker 2: from each other. They have some kind of relationship, but
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  Speaker 2: they are not the same. They are different, and the
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  Speaker 2: mental events and actionable behaviors that are interpreted generally as
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  Speaker 2: manifestations of those mental events are separate things, and they
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  Speaker 2: can have clear linear cause effect directionality. Mental event causes
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  Speaker 2: behavior to happen. That's kind of the gist of how
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  Speaker 2: mentalism slices up things. When it's looking at human behavior.
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  Speaker 4: Right, and so mental events are unobservable, so the accompanying
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  Speaker 4: behaviors are used to speculate wildly what those mental events
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  Speaker 4: must have been. The separation between the fact that mental
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  Speaker 4: events and actionable bodily behaviors can have a cause effect
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  Speaker 4: relationship is a form of dualism. The two exist in
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  Speaker 4: separate planes of reality, so to speak. And this is
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  Speaker 4: the foundation of mentalism.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, mentalism doesn't exist without dualism. Sure, you've got to
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  Speaker 2: have dualism to have mentalism. It is the bedrock of
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  Speaker 2: the whole. Approach to understanding psychology is to treat these
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  Speaker 2: things as belonging to separate feels. So right, this approach
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  Speaker 2: to understanding anything excludes it from belonging to a natural
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: science because its foundation requires subjectivity and an assumption that
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  Speaker 2: these events exist in different realities, different space, time, continuum,
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  Speaker 2: different dimensions whatever. The point is that they are separate
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  Speaker 2: from each other, not part of a unified, cohesive whole. Yes,
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  Speaker 2: and again, you really can't have mentalism without dualism. If
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  Speaker 2: you didn't have dualism, you wouldn't have mentalism.
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  Speaker 4: And I think that's an important distinction as we go forward, Right,
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  Speaker 4: like that you have a philosophy that separates body from
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  Speaker 4: mind in some way, Right, that's really important to understand
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  Speaker 4: the distinction as we go through these philosophies.
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  Speaker 2: That is not how science proceeds. We don't. Like if
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  Speaker 2: we look, if we were to describe something falling through
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  Speaker 2: the air, and we would talk about gravity and mass,
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  Speaker 2: we don't also need to include the motivation of that
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  Speaker 2: object to fall. Sure, we don't try and describe the
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  Speaker 2: personality of the rock or that is falling as having
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: a particular falling propensity, and because we don't need to
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: add that layer to what we've observed, right, so we
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  Speaker 2: just we exclude that dimension from an analysis, and then
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  Speaker 2: we can therefore proceed with a scientific analysis of what's
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: happening as this rock or whatever the thing is falls.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely.
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  Speaker 4: Now, structuralism is the approach that treats all psychological events
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  Speaker 4: as being entirely physiological. So structuralism involves a linear relationship
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  Speaker 4: in which neurological events cause physical actions.
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  Speaker 2: This is a pretty easy pill to swallow for most
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  Speaker 2: people because it is rooted in observation. You have the
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  Speaker 2: actual pieces of biology that we can measure and observe
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  Speaker 2: and look for the correlates another change, and interpret those
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  Speaker 2: as belonging to the structures upon which those behaviors appear
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  Speaker 2: to lie. This also could be called mechanism, is the
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  Speaker 2: basically the same idea. All psychological events in this structuralistic
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  Speaker 2: or mechanistic interpretation can be reduced to the body parts involved.
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  Speaker 2: So to understand let's say, for example, to understand someone
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  Speaker 2: playing a piano, the structuralist will look at the parts
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  Speaker 2: of the brain, the no transmitters in the brain, possibly
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: the muscles and skeleton, the skeletal components of the fingers
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: or the hands. Never mind the reason for playing the
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  Speaker 2: piece in the first place, or the history of learning
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: to play, or the music or piano in front of
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  Speaker 2: them irrelevant secondary to an analysis of this. Yeah, all
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: you need is to look at the biological components, and
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: with or without piano you can have piano plane. According
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  Speaker 2: to a purely mechanistic model of understanding behavior, this is.
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  Speaker 3: A very like engineer view.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, right, where it's like it's like, all the
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: parts together make for this thing to happen, right, And
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: it's like, but all the parts are observable phenomenon, right, Yes,
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  Speaker 4: So personal internal experiences and structuralism are understood in terms
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  Speaker 4: of the neurology involved, the neurotransmitters, the neurostructure, and any
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  Speaker 4: structural damage. So essentially saying that, like if the wheels
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: aren't greased, things are going to work, right, So like
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: we got to make sure the gears are working, that
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  Speaker 4: the parts are there, all these things in order for
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  Speaker 4: this thing to happen, this behavior to happen, all of
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: these parts have to be in place, and all these
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: components have to be in place for this thing to occur.
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  Speaker 2: And when it does occur, to understand it, we look
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  Speaker 2: at those parts and we just see what parts are
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: moving and grooven and what does that look like? And yes,
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: that's sort of the goal of that level of analysis.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, all right.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: So that's the sort of structuralist slash mechanist approach to
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: thinking about psychological events and phenomenon. Okay, behaviorism according to
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: the inter behaviorist argument, and particularly at the time that
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  Speaker 2: it was originally written in like the nineteen fifties ish
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: up through the eighties. Again, so according to inter behaviorism
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: in the eighties and before, behaviorism is rooted in observable
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: aspects of behavior and the relation between those actions and
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: the consequences that follow, be they reinforcing or punishing. So
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  Speaker 2: that's sort of how inter behaviorists talk about what behaviorists
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  Speaker 2: are trying to do.
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  Speaker 4: Sure, and the emphasis on the observable and immediately preceding
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  Speaker 4: antecedents and subsequent consequences ignores, according to some writing on
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  Speaker 4: inner behaviorism, ignores the historical, cultural, and mental factors that
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: may play a role.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, so I think you'd hear this and rightfully interpret
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: it as being a critique or criticism of behaviorism, and
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: you would be right. Kanter and Skinner briefly overlapped at
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: I think it was Harvard that they were at, and
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: so they had some influence on one another. And I
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: think that also because they were there close and had
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: like somewhat close theories. They also had some disagreements. But
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: despite his overall his criticism of behaviorism, Candor generally expressed
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: a lot of respect for, at the very least the
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: scientific rigor of the behaviorist approach. Even if he did
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: disagree with some portions of the philosophy, he at least
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: saw and acknowledged the approach to understanding behavior being much
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: more effective and grounded in science than other approaches. To
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: psychology had been up to that point, psychology that was
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: like treating If you said anything, the words that you
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: said were then legitimate, accurate representation of your psychological ongoing
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  Speaker 2: experience and all the history that preceded it. So you know,
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  Speaker 2: in mentalism, they would see any kind of behavior whatsoever
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  Speaker 2: and they'd interpret that to be a manifestation of some
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: kind of thought or cognition that was happening. Sure, and
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: with that, one of the things that we do very
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: commonly as a species is talk, and talking is very useful.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: It helps us to communicate in a lot of ways.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: And so a lot of people, I think easily interpret
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: the words that we say, which are just more behaviors
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: that we do, but the words that we say as
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: being explicitly revealing of internal things going on about us
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: instead of being words that we say. Right, you know,
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: it's again it's looking at something interpreting something else. It's
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's very very similar to the anomaly of
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: ghost hunting. Sure, it's like, I feel a chill in
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: the room must be a ghost, I'm like, or it
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: could be a chill in the room. Yeah, I hear
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: a creek must be a ghost. I'm like, do we
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: have to jump to ghost every time?
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Why we keep going with ghosts?
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: Maybe we start with sasquatch or a link.
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: It could be it could be any of those things.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Possibly to someone stepping on a floorboard, or the fact
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: that houses are old and they to move and shift
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: in the wind and with like shift in the foundation
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: and whatnot, and they make sounds.
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: So yeah, before I do, But I do like the
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: idea of like picturing Canter and Skinner sitting at the
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: same lunch table though at Harvard, like for a little bit,
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: and just like having a debate and just being like,
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: this is the nerdiest debate. Yeah, like that conversation. I
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: don't think I could listen to that conversation. It would
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: be cool to see, but I don't think I could
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: sit and listen to it. I'd be like, all right,
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: that's enough.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: I think I would. I would have enjoyed it.
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: You're smarter than I am. I think that's why.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: I But I I love history, and I do enjoy
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: the I do enjoy philosophy quite a bit. I do
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: think it would have been horribly representative of the fact
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: that all dominant action in this field was old white
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: men yeah, but but yes, it would have been an
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: interesting time to observe.
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I still would have watched, but I think I
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: would have been like, I don't understand what they're saying,
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: but the wild So we would argue that how behaviorism evolved,
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: it's philosophy was heavily influenced by Cantor and expanded to
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: include many, if not most, of his ideas, and you'll
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: kind of see that as we unpack inter behaviorism here.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: So this is a good time probably to segue to
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: inter behaviorism what it is and an inter behaviorist, and yes,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: there are many of them out there, they might actually
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: appreciate the following explanation of what inter behaviorism is and
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: how it describes psychological events. So, in a nutshell, here
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: it is are you still there? Though it's kind of
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: an inside joke for all zero of our inter behavioral listeners.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: There is some overlap between the ideas inside of sort
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: of Buddhism and inside of inter behaviorism. But specifically, there's
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: an implication of interbehaviorism that regards the fact that language
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: about things and events is itself a behavioral psychological event,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: and that as we appreciate more and more the nature
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: of the world and events around us, there is less
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: and less to say, so we can remain perfectly silent
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: and express all of the important things that are to
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: express without any words whatsoever, because words are just more
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: stuff happening in the field. So the joke there was
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: saying nothing is as important and relevant as saying anything
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: at all. Yeah, and I actually know of a interbehavioral
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: professor who had said at some points that she would
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: have accepted a blank paper for one of their essays
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: once one time, you could get away with it, But
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: she's tired now, so it's not relevant for those of
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: you who are eager to get away with writing a
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: blank paper.
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that there is also that paper on
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: the unsuccessful treatment of Writer's block, which is also a
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: blank piece of paper for the most part, which is great.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: That is how I like all of my ads to
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: be written. Okay, we're back. We are just transitioning now
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: into really what inter behaviorism is and the components of it.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: And as I said, you might be surprised at how
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: complicated it is. Not. Yeah, maybe I'll disagree with me,
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: but I think it's fairly straightforward.
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so let's go ahead and dive into the core
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: aspects of inter behaviorism. So all psychological events are interactions
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: in the whole event field. So the organism that is
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: behaving the objects and events with which we interact, the
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: action or experience, the way that they interact with the
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: object and event, the history that we have with the
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: object and event. Behavior is not caused by internal mental
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: states or brain activity. It's all of those things together
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: that we just described.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: Yes, like we have brain activity, we have internal states
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: and thoughts and feelings. All of those things are all
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: part of it. It's all part of the history we
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: bring up to that moment. It is all part of
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: the way that we interact with other events and objects
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: in the world around us. It's all of those things.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: It is not just anyone slice of them that is
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: the most important, because all of them play a role
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: and that they have an effect on one another, and
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: that role changes dynamically in real time.
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: So, like the various aspects of each variable, the object,
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: our history, our consequences, et cetera, are all shifting and
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: moving and interrelated with one another, all at the same time,
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: and all based off a history of previous experience, which
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: canter called the inter behavioral history you might imagine. Yeah,
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: so that's one of the important components here in terms
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: of understanding this approach is Interbehaviorism is a natural science.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: That is, it looks at the whole event field of
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: any kind of psychological phenomenon or event and considers all
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: of the variables that might participate in that event from
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: beginning to end, middle, center, up, down, left, right, everywhere,
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: and considers that all those variables interact with one another
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: an important and dynamic way. Now, yeah, therefore, all psychological
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: phenomenon and inter behavioralism are natural events, and they can
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: be described usefully by considering the relevant components and their
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: interactions with one another. So specifically, an object has both
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: the property of being a physical thing that's just part
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: of it, right, but separately, it has an effect that
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: it produces on organisms individually. So let's take, for example,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: we have a series of notes. That's just a thing.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: That is a thing that's happening out in the world.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: It's an ephemeral thing, but all things technically are, depending
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: on what your timeline is, but it's a thing. There
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: are vibrations in the air, those are notes. They produce
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: some kind of chord that's a stimulus object, because it
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: is just a thing, that is that series of notes.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: That chord might make one person cry, might make another
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: person nostalgic, might make another person angry. And that's the
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: stimulus function. So you have the stimulus object itself, and
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: then you have the effect that it has on those
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: people around it, and that is its function. Sure, and
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: how the object affects individuals is developed with contextualized history
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: with that object. So the inter behavioral history with those
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: chords and notes from the past up to this moment
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: and the experience of this moment that will then affect
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: future moments and they have different effects on different people
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: based on those inter behavioral histories and the context and setting.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: I'll behave very differently to the sound of country music
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: than someone who can tolerate or maybe even enjoys country music.
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, very different experiences for sure. In addition, there
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: are what are called setting events and these conditions that
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: we're in. This is when we interact with an object
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: or an event. Are we hungry, tired, alert, ill, injured, satiated,
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: et cetera, et cetera. When I need a restroom break
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: really badly, or when we need a restroom really badly,
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: I should say, nothing else on this planet seems important
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: just toilet, right, which is also interestingly unique to humans,
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: as most animals do not feel the same stress and
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: discomfort when in need of alleviating bladder or bowels.
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: They just go.
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: So we have a unique learning history with those objects
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: and events.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and and the fact that we come to every
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: event that happens, every experience that we have in a
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: particular state of needing something or not needing something, and
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: that that changes part of the dynamic of how we
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: interact with that that event, how it shows up for
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: us as I as you just point out, like, imagine
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: you show up up to your most dinner at your
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: favorite restaurants, about to get your most preferred food, but
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: you really, really, really badly need to use the restroom, right, Like,
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: all well and good that you're in this place, but
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: priorities number one through ten are get to restroom right right.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: You've probably all had that experience at one point or another.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: Or you know, if you were to show up if
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: you somewhere to offer you your favorite food and you
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: had just eaten like a huge meal and you're just
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: looking at going like I would love to eat that.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: But if I do, I will explode. Yeah, And those
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: are really simple examples. I think you want to also
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: consider other things like how much sleep did you have recently?
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: And what do you have that's going on with you
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: right now that might be causing some amount of stress
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: or anxiety, or maybe things are really comfortable and good,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: like maybe you just for some reason landed in a
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: whole bunch of extra cash in your pocket and you're
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: feeling really good about buying a whole bunch of extra food.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: Who knows. The point being that, Like, there's a bunch
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: of circumstances that are going to be going on that
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: color and direct impact the overall interaction of that setting,
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: and that's just one piece of the whole thing, right
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: right then we bring in we bring with us everywhere
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: we go our culture, our values, our language, our history
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: of learning, our upbringing, the political climate, our biases, our
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: education or lack thereof, and our experiences to every interaction
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: that we have. And this history is an important variable
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: for understanding how and why behaviors happen, because, as you
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: might imagine, every time we go into one of these experiences,
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: we bring with us all of the learning history we
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: have had up until that point, all the current social
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: situations and politics going on around us. Right now, that
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: something that was relevant on the news that we maybe heard,
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: We're like, hey, there's those war going on that really
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: affects in general how I think about things more broadly,
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: even if it's not the thing I'm thinking about explicitly
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: right now. Right, And then we think again, you know,
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: as I mentioned, like just our overall our culture, like
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: what are the things that are generally important to us?
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: What do we consider appropriate and inappropriate types of behavior? Like?
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: All of that is part of it as you go
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: into just any particular opportunity to have an experience whatsoever
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: or do a thing.
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: Right, So, the medium of contact is another important aspect
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: of this consideration. So this refers to the way that
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: we interact with other objects or events.
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: Is it through.
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: Sound, touch, smell, site, taste, a combination of those things.
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: So that piece of like how we actually come into
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: contact with the events does make a difference.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah. And one of the variables to consider in
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: terms of understanding any kind of behavior that is happening,
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: the physical movement we make with respect to an object
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: or an event and its function the effect it has
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: on us is also relevant, also influenced by the history
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: and types of interactions we have had with that object.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: So the way that Shane interacts with a book is
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: going to be very different from somebody, for example, who
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: hates reading.
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: That's true.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: They see a book and they have different physiological internal
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: reactions than Shane would. There is being of maybe fear
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: and anger and shains of joy.
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: That's true.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: And so like you know, just again understanding the way
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: we interact with it is there's that medium of contact
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: piece what's important. So whether we're talking about a book,
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: for example, you do have tactile experience of holding it
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: and feeling it. You have the visual experience of looking
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: at it. So the kind of lighting that you're in,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: and the setting in which you find that book, and
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: the fact that we hold it with two hands or
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: one hand and we flip through pages, those are all
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: pieces of it that are determined both by the physical
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: properties of the object and it's function it has on us.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: Because we know what to do with the book versus
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: some device you've never seen before. You have no idea
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: how it works or what to do with it. You're
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: not going to approach it the same way you'd approach,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: for example, a book, because of all the things that
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: I just said, like your history with it, there, the
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: actions you take with respect to that thing, your relative
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: familiarity with those things, Like, the effects are very different,
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: and those are considerations and understanding any behaviors that we do.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, but it's not just movement.
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: It's the effect that the action produces on the object,
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: the person, the other person, or the other people, or
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: any combination of those things.
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: Like I often think of like when you wave.
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: Your hand in the air right, Like we don't notice this,
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: but we actually change the currents of the air around
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: us when we're waving our hands and moving right. So
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: like that is in itself producing an effect that we're
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: not directly observing, but we do we can notice in
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: some ways, like especially if there's a candle burning on
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: your desk or like on a and you wave your
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: hand around that you start seeing the flames move and
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: shift as a result of that. So like, there's all
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: these interactions that we have that are like even minute,
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: but do change the way that we interact with the
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: world around us. These will in turn later effect the
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: stimulus functions of that object and the motives of the
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: behaving person with respect to that object.
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: So I may accidentally.
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: Wave my hand in front of a candle and all
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: of a sudden, I see the flames move, and I'm like, oh,
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: that was really cool. And now I've got a visual
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: stimulus that is now different than what I had previously
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: because I have caused some effect on that particular object,
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: created a new fascination, and now I like arson, I mean,
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: that's a.
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: Leap, but like it's but you can see how we
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: get there, you know what I'm saying.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: Wow, it took a turn. Yeah, And you know, I
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: think about if you've ever been in a space that
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: was designed as a set and you get to interact
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: with props on the set, if you're not familiar with them,
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: it's a little jarring the first time how you might
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: go to try and interact with something that doesn't move
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: or do things the way that you're used to it
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: doing things, because it's it's not actually real. It's designed
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: to just look a particular way as it's a piece
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: of the scenery on a given set. So if you're
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: on a stage play or on a movie set or
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: anything like that, or you're interacting with props in some
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: other way if you're not really expecting it, Like you
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: have a different a different sort of approach to those things,
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: and it's and it's gonna it can be a little
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: confusing sometimes. So anyway, the effect that you know your
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: movements and actions have with respect to the thing. If
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: I go to open a book and it's a prop book,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: it doesn't actually open, then like that's going to be
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: again it's sort of jarring different experience. But otherwise you
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: think about I keep using the book example. We can
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: go with your arson example. But whatever the thing is,
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: actually you know, I got a good one is like
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: let's say I wanted to make a peanut butter sandwich.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: We can all relate to that. Yeah, And like you
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: go to one of the things you're gonna do is
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: twist off the lid of the jar. The movement of
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: grabbing the jar, twisting the lid, that's all informed by
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: the history you have with it and the fact that
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: as you twist the lid it moves has an effect
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: on your different and continued interactions with a thing. If
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: you twist the lid and it doesn't move, you're now
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: doing different things like banging it on the counter or
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: finding something very sticky that you can wrap around that
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: sticky necessarily, but like one of those cloths that's designed
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: to help remove jar lids you talking about, Yeah, the
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: sort of rubbery, sort of neoprene pad things. Anyway, point
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: being that, like your behavior changes now with respect to
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: those stimulus functions, which are not altered. So anyway, all
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: this is to say, thinking about any kind of psychological
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: event or behavior in this way is described as being
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: non linear, and that's because it's not a direct one
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: to one cause effect type relationship between things. There are
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: several simultaneous variables intertwined, functioning separately and interdependently with one
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: another in a myriad of ways so potentially complex that
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: even something as simple as making a pot of coffee
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: can start to feel overwhelmingly impossible to analyze when you
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: think about all of those variables in every step along
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: the continuum the path to doing that simple action. So
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: in addition to that, the new interaction we have as
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: we're performing that, going through that experience and performing those actions,
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: they will have an effect on the future antecedent functions
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: of the stimuli that were previously consequences in the previous interactions.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: So this you know, let's say I got a new
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: type of coffee. I'm now interacting with a different thing
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: that has a different effect on me, and I'm looking
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: for maybe a different color packaging or something like that.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: But point being that, like every time we have these
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: actions that we engage in, not only do we have
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: this dynamic interdependent process where variables sort of bounce off
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: each other, but that is also in real time affecting
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: those interactions and going to affect the future interactions by
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: changing the function that those stimuli have by the time
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: we get there next time.
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So it's essentially what it means to exist as
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: a trial Fammadorian in Slaughterhouse five.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: It's you exist out of time and space.
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: Like really think about this, Like if you really think
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: about what you just described, Like every single interaction has
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: a history, and it has a future, and it has
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: a present, right, and so every tril famma dorian exists.
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: I mean, that's Billy Pilgrim is unstuck in time. What
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: it is is he he exists in every modicum every
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: aspect of time forever, throughout every future and throughout every past. Right,
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: every interaction that you have does that because it takes
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: everything that you have had in your in your history,
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: as it takes every physiological interaction, every neurological interaction, every
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: single interaction that you have previously had, and that moment,
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: it all leads up to that singular moment, and that
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: singular moment then branches into every single interaction that you
• 37:19
  Speaker 4: have in the future, at least to some degree in
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: that particular context.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: And there in lies the genius of Kurt Vonnegut Junior.
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: That's it.
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: Kirvonnica Junior was just an inter behaviorist writing science fiction.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: Really, what we were the whole point of this episode
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: was to get to Konica mission accomplished.
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: Beautiful, beautiful. I wonder what he would say about ads.
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: Now that we are back to the present with Billy
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: Pilgrim and the Trophyvanorians or something.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: We're the moment.
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, for whatever whatever it is.
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: Now in inter behaviorism, as we're talking about this, it
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: may not be particularly useful, and I think this is
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: an important part of this. It may not be useful
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: to taxonomize any one variable as belonging to a particular category,
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: because all variables involved in any interactions are only relevant
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: insofar as they interact with one another. In that moment
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: and don't have clearly delineated boundaries. That is, there aren't
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: really antecedents, consequences, motivating, establishing very operations, discriminations, or even behaviors.
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: They're all just things that interact together in that singular moment.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we can't separate them from one another. Like a
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: behavioral function only has a function because the stimulus has
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: a function, and the stimulus only has a function because
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: the history of the behavioral function with respect to that stimulus.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: So like they all exist on a continuum where calling
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: one thing something and then having that name, attempt to
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: apply that name consistently becomes tricky because it just doesn't
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: always work. We're like, oh, this thing is an ante scene,
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: well except that a consequence with the previous thing, but
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: it's at a scene for this thing. I guess the
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: thing just follows from that thing. So maybe are sort
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: of part of all the same thing, but they kind
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: of exist along like a one thing happens in another
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: even though they're in related with each other, and it
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: starts to become so messy that it's sort of like
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: do we bother trying to call it anything? You know? Right,
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: what happens is there is an in the psychological event
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: with the inter behavioral field, and those inter behavioral field
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: has components we can look at, but none of them
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: are There aren't hard and clear lines between them. They
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: are part of an interactive, dynamic thing. Then that's not
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: to say that it is not useful to label those
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: things in service of a particular analytic objective. It will
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: likely make sense to have a name for various aspects
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: of the inter behavioral field for effective communication, analysis, and
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: decision making. So it's worth saying I think that like
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: having classifications of names of things is in a way
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: like creating arbitrary delineations that can confuse the actual nature
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: of any particular behavior or activity or event. And it
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: still might be practically useful to do this in situations
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: where it facilitates behavior in another way, which is to say,
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: it allows for some kind of analysis and understanding of
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: what's going on. So with all of that being said,
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: let's pick some activity, some behavior and see if we
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: can try to break it down in the inter behavioral
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: framework and unpack what is going on in that into
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: that event. So Shaney, I didn't warn you at all.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: So everyone's getting to hear this sort of in real time,
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: real life scenario. Can you come up with something that
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: we can try and understand by looking at it through
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: an inter behavioral lens?
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: Ooh, something that we haven't talked about either, So like
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: we've alread talked about making peanut butter sandwich and playing
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: music and interacting with a prop and a book and
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: a book and a candle I think and a candle. Yeah,
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: we brought candles up in our son and stuff like
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: that too. Let's talk about a painting. Let's talk about like,
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: let's let's talk about Pablo Picasso painting Guernica. Okay, let's
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: talk about that like specific thing because there because there's
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: a lot of things that come into that painting. For
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: those of you who are not familiar Guertica or Guernica.
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: I can't remember how it's pronounced, unfortunately, but I could
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: be right.
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: Gernica.
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: It might be Gernica. It could it's it's more likely
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: that's what it is. Because you're, like I said, you're
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: smart than I am. So this is a this is
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: actually an anti war painting that he that and also
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: an example of abstracting Cubism that he is known for,
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: and also not very colorful. It's in black and gray,
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: which is a little bit different than some of his
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: paintings too, So let's talk about that.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: Sure, Okay, we'll do our best.
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: I think first piece to unpack here is the sort
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: of context in which painting occurs. So, as you said,
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: this is an anti war painting, so it has to
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: do at least in part with some of the war activities.
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: And I believe this one was specifically around World War One,
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: maybe World War iiO somewhere there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: was like around a major world events type war. So
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: we have that as one of our setting variables. Here.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: We have someone who uses vision to engage with their medium,
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: which in their preference here is paint in a canvas
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: of some sort. We have also paint a history of painting.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: We have a history of consequences for painting. We have
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: I'm presuming that this piece probably took a long time
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: to create, so it's over the course of many days.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: There will be many psychological states that are involved in this,
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: and also a persistent, ongoing reason to keep doing this
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: particular project because presumably there is some final point at
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: which the project is considered complete by our creator. Here
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: Picasa so So I think those are all part of it.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: What else do you think?
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: Okay, so you've got probably like the immediate feeling of
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: the paint touching the canvas with.
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: The paint brushes.
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: You have got probably like the design when it's applied,
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: whether or not that is visually appealing or not. Because
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: Cosso is known for painting and repainting and repainting over
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: his paintings. So like there's that piece which is like
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: maybe a line that he draws or a section that
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: he colors, does not it's not sufficient, so he redoes it.
• 43:30
  Speaker 4: You have got I would imagine the environment in which
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: he's painting, which could include the lighting, the temperature. It
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: can include air smells in the air, especially when it
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: comes to paints, and like the types of paints, oil
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: painting and crylic painting, there's all smell very different. I
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: would imagine that he probably did not live in isolation
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: all the time, so there were probably some social interactions
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: that may have influenced whether or not he was painting,
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: was not painting, was engaged with those people, was maybe
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: in even some emotional states that he might have experience.
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: He might have been frustrated that somebody interrupted him while
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: he was painting, and that could have created some kind
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: of unique element there. Like there's all those things that
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: you could think about. You can think about where he
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: purchased the paint from, how he got the paint, whether
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: and like those interactions and whether or not that influenced
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: the paint that he did select in those moments, you know,
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: whether he had a paint guy, you know, you know,
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: like and you think about like those all of those
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: interactions to influence maybe the color he selected, or the
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: mixing that he did, also mixing the paint. When he's
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: mixing the colors, and like deciding to make certain colors,
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: like landing on a color that he decides to use
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: to paint a certain section of the painting. That also
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: plays a role in like finding the right hue of
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: the paint that he's about to apply.
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: Didn't say it was black and white.
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: It is black and white.
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: But yeah, so maybe hughes not the right word, right,
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: but like like the certain shade of gray or the
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: certain shade of like so like those levels of like
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: going like this is right, this is what I want
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: to see here, you know.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and yeah all those are great, absolutely, right,
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: and then there's also I think the general feedback of
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: as you said, as he paints a line, that that
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: line correspond with the shape that fits inside the space
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: that he was attempting to create, whatever that might mean,
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: And so the correspondence between shape and line made versus
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: the overall preference for what the final image looks like.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: At some points that matches perfectly, and he keeps it
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: as is, and at some points it does not match,
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: and he paints over it and it tries again. And
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: as you said, there are gonna be things like somewhat lighting,
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: probably temperature and humidity will probably play a role in
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: how the effect of these the paint dries, and the
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: response he has to how it looks, and how much
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: sleep he's getting, and maybe each days he's going to
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: paints or of that experience. And then everything he is
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: learning and building, because like every time he paints, he
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: is practicing painting, which means he's getting better at it,
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: like he is building that skill, he's building that repertoire.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: So even as he is working on this painting, he
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: is learning and painting better and more efficiently and more
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: in line with like trying, you know, creating the vision
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: that he's set out to put to canvas, if you will,
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: or whatever he was painting on. Maybe it was a wall,
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: but the point being that like the whole entire all
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: of those irrelevant variables that to consider. So Okay, I
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: think we did it. Think we did okay, pretty good?
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, I mean I think also to like, I mean,
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: you could if you really wanted to, like zoom out
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: a little bit. You talk about the part of the
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: world that he was painting in, You talk about the
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: contents of the war, like you talk all those things
• 46:33
  Speaker 4: and like those influences, but like like you also talk
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: about the year in which he was painting and doing this,
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: and like the available technologies that were then that are available.
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: Then you talk about like the political climate at the
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: time you brought up earlier. You talk about like the
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: difference between like men and women's rights at the time.
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: Like there's there's all these things that like can really
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: shape and like play a role in that particular moment,
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: like the moment that he applies the first brush stroke
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: to the canvas. That moment is influenced by every single
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: thing that we just talked about.
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: Yep, yep, exactly right, you know, and you think about
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: what's he what is he thinking about day to day?
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: Is he going around, you know, doing his things? And
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: and the fact that like back at the time when
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: he was painting this and like the early nineteen hundred,
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: his nineteen thirties, maybe what was there to do in
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: the time that you weren't doing quote unquote work right,
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: And like because if candy crush had been a thing
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: in the nineteen thirties when he was painting, like would
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: he have just not painted and instead done that with
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: his time or you know, would that have affected his
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: painting and had him just approach it somewhat differently, I
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: would have pictures of candies in the painting instead. There's that,
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: and then I think there's also thinking about, as you said,
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: the opportunity to do this, whether or not he got
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: paid for this, people's reaction to it. He may have
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: you know, there there may have been a reaction that
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: was not necessarily one of admiration that he actually kind
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: of it, like he maybe didn't want one that was like, Oh,
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: you're so brilliant, what a great artist you are. Maybe
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: he was hoping for I don't understand type thing. What
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: is going on here? And God exactly what he wanted
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: out of that.
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: So yeah, cool.
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: So just so everybody's got this, it was it was
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: finished in nineteen thirty seven, so it's in the context
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: of World War Two, and it was painted after the
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: town of Gernika was bombed by Nazis.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: That's what I thought it was too, because I'm like,
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: I thought that I knew there was some history behind this,
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: that was a thought with respect to specifically a specific place, right,
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: and there's like a civilian thing that was bombed.
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so there you go.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: All right, we did it. We did the thing.
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: We explained a single brushstroke in the context in the
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: context of Nazi Germany and World War Two.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: Yep, mission accomplished. Okay. So, as you might be able
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: to see the implications for understanding any psychological event, even
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: small brief experiences, there are there's just a vast array
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: of contextual variables that are dynamic and possible only relevant
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: to that particular event, that might not be relevant again
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: in subsequent events, even ones that look similar, let alone
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: understanding something larger and more complex and including more people,
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: such as like a cultural practice or a political movement
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: or something like that, or just you know, a decision
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: to do some life changing thing like I don't know,
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: run for political office, like whatever it might be. Like
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: breaking down those behaviors when something as simple as like
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: a brushstroke or you know, painting a picture yields a
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: what I think, extremely incomplete analysis that we attempted to do. Yeah,
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: I'm nevertheless, you know, happy that we attempted it. But
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: considering those variables to try and then unpack something a
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: lot more complex and nuanced, you can imagine how tricky
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: it can start to feel. But I also don't want
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: to dissuade people from thinking about it in that term.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: I actually think it's extremely useful to be thinking about
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: it that way.
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's not to say that it can't be done,
• 49:56
  Speaker 4: like the analysis can't be done. In our experience, attempting
• 49:59
  Speaker 4: to analyze any event in this way is so fun
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: that we can find ourselves eager to attempt in other
• 50:04
  Speaker 4: places as well. So Cantor wrote many books and articles
• 50:07
  Speaker 4: across various topics, including history, philosophy, and culture, and one
• 50:11
  Speaker 4: that surveyed a large number of ideas, and his mentees
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: went on to write a lot on the subject, including
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: a book called Ai to Zeitgeist in which author n
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: Age Pronco attempted to bring an interbehavioral analysis to a
• 50:24
  Speaker 4: wide swath of possible subjects spanning the alphabet, which is
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: actually a lot of fun.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: It is, and it's kind of wild because it starts
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: with AI, as the name implies, and each of these
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: like little chapters and I don't remember how many there are.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: I think there's like multiple chapters for each letter of
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: the alphabet, but it's an uneven number. But in the
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: AI chapter he makes some claims about what AI will
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: or will never do. And this book was what I think,
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: published in the eighties that now feel pretty dated because
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: AI is definitely doing those things, so right, didn't realize
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: we're going to be here this quickly. But oops, yeah,
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: so that is, like I said, there has just been
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: a large number of attempts and treaties and whatever treatises. However,
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: it said to consider through an inter behavioral approach a
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: pretty large proportion of like human experience, understanding that there
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: is still a lot to unpack, and that those approaches
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: are not often actually analyzing a single real event, but
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: taking them on conceptually. So to talk about something like
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: I don't remember a topic from that book, let's just
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: say farming a topic like that and unpacking it from
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: an inter behavioral lens and then talking about like what
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: that would mean, and not necessarily looking at a farm
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: and analyzing a particular farmer's behaviors, but just sort of
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: talking about it conceptually. Nevertheless, very interesting reads in my opinion,
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: but I'm a nerd, so all right, So summary of
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: all of this, I think is the simple is I
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: think to say that inter behavior as a natural science
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: that attempts to understand psychological events by considering them in
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: the entire into behavioral field, which includes setting events, the
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: medium of contact, stimulus objects, stimulus functions, behavioral actions, behavioral functions,
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: the interbehavioral history, and all the other contextual variables that
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: might be relevant in an ongoing, dynamic, interactive web of variables,
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: and that in doing so we can appreciate both the
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: complexity and nuance of behaviors and also to take an
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: approach that allows us to really think carefully and analytically
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: about all things that happen psychologically speaking and how those
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: might be relevant, and I think also appreciate the fact
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: that the words that we say about them are also
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: just more words, and that they whether or not they
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: are accurate kind of almost doesn't really matter, because it's
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: just like if I were to say it in comple
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: utter gobbledegook nonsense that wasn't even a real language, could
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: you say whether or not what I said was true
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: or accurate? No, because it doesn't have any frame of reference.
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: So it's just whether we agree that the reference frame
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: we use for those words aligns with our observations about
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: the phenomenon at hand. And all that is to say,
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: if you really want to explain it, you can say this.
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: Beautiful.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: All right, Well we said a lot more than nothing
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: at all. We made it a whole hour into this discussion.
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: So look at us, look at us, Go what do
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: you feel like? Shane? You were you said you are
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: not all that familiar with inter behaviorism before starting this?
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: Do you feel like you have a better handle on
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: it now?
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: I feel like I do. And I will say, I'm
• 53:50
  Speaker 4: going to say this to somebody who has read Cantor's work.
• 53:53
  Speaker 4: I have read The Signs of Psychology is the one
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: that I've read, and that's like the text for it.
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: And I read it and went, don't get this, And
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: I think that you did a great job of like
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: breaking this down in a way that I feel better
• 54:05
  Speaker 4: about talking about it. Like I understood that, Like I
• 54:08
  Speaker 4: understood that there was like you know, everything was together,
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: and I understood that they all interacted in different ways.
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: The field was there, Like I understood that. And I've
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: seen that image. There's a really great image of it too.
• 54:18
  Speaker 4: That's kind of like that goes like, oh, this is
• 54:20
  Speaker 4: what it should look like. But yeah, I feel I
• 54:23
  Speaker 4: feel a lot better about it, and hopefully our listeners
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: do too.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: Okay, cool, Yeah, Well I'm glad. Thank you for that validation.
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: If you listener would like to tell us your thoughts
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: on inter behaviorism, then I would love to hear them.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: Please reach out to us. You can email us directly
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com, or on the social
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: media platforms, and we do look forward to hearing from you.
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: Thank you for going on this nerd journey through deep philosophy.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: I hope that it was somewhat entertaining and maybe even
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: just made you think a little bit differently about some things.
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: I think that's what we have to say then about
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: inter behaviorism, unless there's anything you'd like to add it
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: before we move on.
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: I got nothing else on my end.
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: Okay, Then, for those of you who have who are
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: joining us for the first time, something we do at
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: the end of our discussions is recommend some things. And
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: if you're a returning person, you know that already, and
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: you also know that we also probably play an ad
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: before that recommendation. Ooh, we are back. I'm going to
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: get through our credits before we jump to our recommendations,
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: and then we'll recommend some things, which is would be
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: implied by the first sentence that I said yes, but
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: I said it two different ways. I decided you're welcome. Yes.
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: If you'd like to support us, you can leave us
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: a rating and a review like and subscribe, and by
• 55:47
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• 55:50
  Speaker 2: other people and that it always shows up in your
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: feet and bully for you. I hope that you make
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: that choice and keep checking out what we're talking about
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: on here, and we really appreciate having you, and hopefully
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: we didn't scare you away by doing a lot of philosophy.
• 56:04
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: If you also would like to support us non financially,
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: you can go tell a friend and have them subscribe,
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: and that's all good as well. But if you like
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: to support us financially, we do really appreciate it. We
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: are not backed by any particular capital group. We do
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: not do this professionally, although we kind of seem like professionals.
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: I think we've been doing it for almost ten years. Yeah,
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: or nine years, come up on nine years. That's what
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: it is. That's got to ten though, we're almost rounded up.
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: Matter of fact, it's only I think a month out
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: from now that will be at exactly nine years. Let
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: let us go look at us. It go. Let's keep
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: on doing the thing. Anyway. If you like support us,
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: those are ways you can do that. Joining us on Patreon,
• 56:42
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• 56:44
  Speaker 2: content at free content, early episodes, all that kind of thing.
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: And the people who support us, I will read their
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: name on the list of names of people who help
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: us be a podcast. So thank you so much too,
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: Mike m Megan, Mike T, Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley, Kiara,
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: and Charlie. We really appreciate you all for being around.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: It really helps us do our thing, and we appreciate it.
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: You the best people.
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: We love you, Yeah, indeed, but I know that's not
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: everybody's ability. They just you know, can't make that all happen.
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: And that's okay, you know, for those who can, we
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: really appreciate it because, as I said, it's a heroic,
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: small team effort. Speaking of team, not to person, because
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: is just us recording, but there are other people involved
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: running in fact checking from Shane and myself, and thank
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: you for recording with me today, Shane.
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: Hey anytime.
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson. And our editor
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: who is so gracious and kind with our making his
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: life relig difficult, is Justin and he does a really
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: good job. So thank you. Justin.
• 57:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Emperor producer. Yeah, I'm current host. That is the
• 57:43
  Speaker 4: ghost host, the ghost host.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, very good. All right, Well I think that is
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: it for credits. I think I said the thing. You
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: can email us all that. Okay, good work, good. Ready
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: to recommend some things, yay, all right, music time.
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: Recommendations.
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: All right, I am recommending a TV series. It is
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: one that I was aware of but didn't really feel
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: like checking out, and then I decided to check it out,
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: and I'm so glad that I did. But it is
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: called A Man on the Inside. The primary protagonist is
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: Ted Danson, and essentially the premise of the show is
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: Ted Danson is hired by a PI to infiltrate a place.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I need to be vague about this, anyway,
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: that's that's what it is, to infiltrate the place. And
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: he is not a spy, like, he's just someone who's
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: retired who just needed something to do. So he's just
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: like answered an ad that was like we need we
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: need someone to do this role and he's like, I
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: got nothing to do. Sure, I'll go do it. And anyway,
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: it's very funny and it's also very heartwarming, and it
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: is very very well done. And there are two seasons.
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: It is on Netflix, but it's kind of got sort
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: of comedy and mystery vibes all wrapped in one. And
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: I thought it was just super enjoyable and like the
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: writing on it was fantastic. The humor is really good,
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: the heartfelt moments are really wonderful. So I just really
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: liked it all around. There's only the two seasons, so
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: not a huge commitment time wise, and as I said,
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: on Netflix, so but yeah, I really liked.
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: It beautiful, I love it. I like Ted dancing. He's
• 59:32
  Speaker 4: great and stuff.
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and he's he's very fun in this. And
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: his wife has a cameo appearance for a little while,
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: which is cute like his real life wife. Yeah yeah.
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: So all kinds of good stuff going on in this.
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: So fun, so fun.
• 59:45
  Speaker 4: All right, I'm gonna recommend something that is like sweet
• 59:47
  Speaker 4: and wholesome as well, and that is a local candy store.
• 59:51
  Speaker 4: I say local. It's about an hour away from me.
• 59:53
  Speaker 4: It's called Sweet Jane's Candy Store and Whoopi Pies. So
• 59:57
  Speaker 4: this is a little, tiny candy store. It is in
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 4: the middle of nowhere, Florida.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: It's closes.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 4: It's probably to o Calla, okay, And if you're not
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 4: familiar with where Ocala is, it's like where a data
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 4: remember is from. Yeah, which is in the middle of nowhere.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: But it is this little candy shop that is attached
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 4: to an RV part.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 4: It's a tiny little room, but they're known for their
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 4: whoopie pies. And I took my buddy Troy out there
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: for the first time yesterday and had a really great time.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: So I was able to get five whoopie pies.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 4: There was a lemon zest one red velvet one, a
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 4: German chocolate one, a chocolate mint one, a brownie, walnut
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 4: birthday cake, all the flavors that you can want out
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 4: of a whoopie pie.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: And that's what they're known for.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: And if you don't know what a whoopy pie is,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 4: it's basically like two cake looking cookie things filled with
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 4: like a cream. They look like big fluffy oreos and
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 4: they're delicious, so you should go get one. But they
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 4: also have like vintage candy. They have Whoopi pies for dogs,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 4: which is adorable. Yeah, it's like a really cool little
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 4: like vintage candy shop that's like in the middle of nowhere.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 4: So it's like kind of like it's got its charms
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 4: that go along with that, which is really great. So yeah, wow,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 4: go check it out if you're ever in the area,
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 4: or wow, if you're never in Silver Springs, Florida, go
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 4: to your local weird vintage candy shop and have a
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 4: good time.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: There you go. Yeah, all right, very good. Well that
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: is the TV show A Man on the Inside and
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: the Candy Shop, the off the beaten Path candy shop
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: called Sweet Jane's Candy Store and Whoopee Pies in Florida
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: if you happen to be in the area. Very nice. Yeah,
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: all right, great, well that's fun. I think that is
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: what we have to say then about in your behavioralism
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: and candy shops and a man on the inside. You
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: can tell us your thoughts on all of those things,
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: and we'd love to hear from you, But I think
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: that we're ready to wrap this one up.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: I think so.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: All right, well, everyone, thanks for listening.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: This is Abraham, it is a Shane.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: We're out.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: Bye.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: You've been listening to Why we Do what we do.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: going to wwdwwdpodcast dot com.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 4: Thanks for listening, and we hope you haven't all so gay.