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with Insight Investment's David Chellew - Part 2 · Two in Twenty

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to 2 in 20.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: This is part two of my conversation with David Chalu, the Head of Marketing from Insight Investment.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: We get further into the conversation around the common language around his team, the success for marketing within financial services, and some really great tips and tools for marketers growing their careers.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: So enjoy the next 20 minutes.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for listening.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Most people in marketing roles, they just want to know, back to your original question, that their job contributes in a practical way to the business's strategy and that their work gets highlighted and it ranks.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Once you get that, it's just repeating that model.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: I was going to ask a bit more about that because I it's it's interesting, isn't it?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of how the team kind of sets itself and continues to sort of lift the level of standards when everybody is sort of aligned and connected and collaborating like that, and to have that common language, you know, so important.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and just to kind of unpack a little further, you know, you've talked to me before about the kind of kind of dashboards that you have and how you sort of marry that with your stakeholders.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I think also, again, so there's that piece I'd love to sort of dig into further as well as a culture of minimizing the number of repetitions.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: You've talked to me about that before.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to kind of talk about that as well as a team and as an extension of that common language we are talking about.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'll um I'll take the second bit first, and you might have to repeat the question.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, in terms of repetitions, what we do, I mean, uh, the general rule that essentially you need at least six repetitions with the same audience using different parts of the marketing mix for a message to land, we make sure that basically for things we're prioritizing, that there there is at least six repetitions through different parts of the marketing mix for those contacts, um, to ensure that essentially we hit that that minimum requirement in terms of creating awareness.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if if things for things that aren't priorities, but they're they're things that necessarily need to be done, then we will just produce the content and deliver it.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: But it it really get to the stakeholder that asks for it.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: But it really comes down to how you organize the team, because those things that are really in the top 10, 20% are the ones that need repetition and that to have the impact.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Other things are very necessary and very important, but they that that becomes production.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: And what we're trying to do there is just make sure that for the commodity bit of the marketing platform, that we're operationally organizing that to be as effective as it possibly can be, to be honest.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because the again going back to how do you create a positive environment for marketing, it's it's not in the delivery of the commodity components, is essentially how you organize to be able to manufacture those for the minimum cost to allow the team to focus on the value add and where the and the projects and things that enhance their skills and the things that have a real impact at the firm level that make a big difference because that links into their perception of how engaged that they feel their work is with the strategy, which if you're going to sustain it for a long period of time, you need to create that environment and you need to create a culture that goes with it, and you need to be able to show that evidence and and where you're headed next.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And that's sort of to that, I guess this links back to the other part of the question around the kind of commercial value and demonstrating, I guess, to your key stakeholders the right metrics to meet back to their problem statements.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: And just uh yeah, you were sort of talking a little bit about that to me previously.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love you just to highlight that as well, maybe.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, we we've obviously got a lot of marketing metrics because uh frankly, everything we do is backed with a software platform or a um MI grid um for each of the teams and then what they do in aggregate.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: But with the business, we're setting um objectives and measures that link into the um the business's KPIs.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, quite importantly, we don't use marketing metrics with business heads and executives, we use them because essentially marketing is delivering things for their scorecard to enhance delivery of their business plans.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a marketing strategy in isolation.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: So the way we do that, as well as trying to be well organized and having a good management information platform, so we can measure our production and we can measure engagement and we research benchmark, ultimately we are organizing our priorities based on the commercial plan and the strategy metrics.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because um, if we do that, then it can be more of a lift in terms of how we organize what marketing does and then how we show the impact of marketing in those KPIs.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: But it's worth it because actually create a better sync with the senior team.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, if you use the same metrics with the with the team in marketing, then their link and their uh ability to link their work with the strategy is so much greater.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: What we're um doing, and we've been doing for a little while now, is through the uh granularity of the management information.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: Firstly, we can sort of test the institutional pipeline from first contact all the way through to business wins, which gives us a very clear idea.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: But also on the marketing side, we can measure from uh the first contact of uh an individual with the firm what piece of marketing was it.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then we can track that all the way through to that being a qualified lead, which then goes into the pipeline.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: So the sort of the impact of um the marketing mix with a particular client segment, we can measure how that actually moves through into becoming an opportunity.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And what what that allows us to do is we can look at the marketing mix that's effective in a particular audience and we can pick our individual items that we've produced that have created new conversations.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then obviously what we do is make a decision to produce more of those at the expense of the ones that didn't land as well.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got this sort of ongoing ability to be able to calibrate that is is very self-reinforcing.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that what we don't uh another thing that we do uh with a fair bit of science to it is that we don't release budget for things until we prove that the the initial response is positive.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: So in terms of the sort of financial management of it, um we don't spend up front um thinking it might be good and then uh establish whether it was or not.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um we release the marketing budget in small phases.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: So the first phase will be a test impact.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: If that works, then we'll broaden the audience and we keep doing that.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: And things that work, if we know that let's say we can contact 20 or 30% of people in a segment, but actually we we there are others with the same characteristics, then we will essentially switch our approach to look to expand beyond the cohort that we currently contact, where where we think the message is going to resonate with a broader audience than one than the one we directly know.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Which is really it goes back to the objective, what are the objectives of a marketing exercise?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes it will be about delivering communications into a known audience, in other times it will be reaching out to prospects, let's say, with events and things like that.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: But you're you you need to calibrate the objective because if if the objective is in a segment where you don't know the population, then one of the initial things you need to do is basically improve your CRM.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't do that, then you're marketing to a subcohort and all your spend only impacts that cohort, whereas like the broader audience you've missed.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we're sort of we're quite specific in calibrating this specific objective.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because it changes the amount of marketing you do and what marketing you prioritize, and then how you're going to measure it.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: And to your question on stakeholders, yeah.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: You establish a sync when you say when when you set an objective that links into their business plan, and the measure is very specific.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: So when you report against that goal, you can prove it out with a specific number that they agreed was directly relevant in the first place, and then your your platform gets a much better sync.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because you don't do marketing you don't need to do or doesn't match the business goal, and you end up with less waste and a spend that's more aligned with what you're trying to achieve, which improves your return on investment ultimately.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, really directed energy, resources, budgets, etc., to the ultimate goals.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think I just thinking to the question I ask everybody in these podcasts around what does success look like for marketing and financial services.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like I already want to write down, like be much more specific about your goals and all the things that you do.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think sometimes we can be quite general and think that that's a pretty good goal, or the objective is sort of written down, but actually being much more specific with a very clear um I guess metric to prove it out would be I don't know, putting words in your mouth, David, but I I would wonder whether that would be one of them.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything else that you would say alongside that?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that helps.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's important that you agree what you're gonna do up front before you spend any organizational time and resources on doing it.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then obviously if you've agreed it specifically with a stakeholder, they remember and they're involved with what what you agreed.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: So when you report that number, there's just a much better sync.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: And a more advocacy is what you said you'd do, you've actually done it.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, in terms of success, I think like um the the only thing that I'm really looking for from the team, other than the sort of the usual accolades, is the um when they look back on their time like working at Insight, like in the future, that they look back on the time they've spent here as a as a period when they've essentially learned a lot of skills and expertise in their own areas, learned a lot from other people, and they enjoyed being in a a team that was supportive for what they were trying to do.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Generally they achieved some excellent results that they can point to and look back on and say, This is I moved my career on and made progress when I was there.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um which is sort of really there's a lot you'll forget, but actually you'll probably remember whether generally the environment made you feel good or it didn't.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: To sort of apply yourself today and your role as if you're looking back on it to kind of want to feel like that was rewarding, constructive, growing time.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean uh one thing that I say to the team is like if we're talking about a specific topic, I'll say you're gonna remember this like the thing we're talking about now in three months' time.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because if the answer's no, why are we talking about it?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: So then it when it comes, what I really want is the other thing about creating a positive environment is let the team run with ideas.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because whilst you need a lot of structure and objectives, you also need an environment that essentially is creative and where the people will go and fully find solutions to problems.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um so there's a ton of that at the early stage where the teams can essentially create a lot of new things, and then we can build um the best of those ideas into the plan.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it the framework works much better when we can provide some guidance, but we're not filling in everything that creates the delivery against that goal.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: The team then go away and decide how to do it and then decide how to make the process for doing it better.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and to be honest, from my perspective, that's how I learn because there's so many people with tons of expertise that are keen to push forward that as they push forward and then they're telling me what they're doing.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: I am in a constant, sort of permanent learning environment where we can think about okay, well, how does this make things better?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: How does it move the department on?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: What can we do that we couldn't do before if we if we get this thing done?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: So the the team are always looking at um essentially where best practice is, or if we're at best practice, how can we move the best practice forward?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you want to be a leading organization, well, you just need to be looking for how is the environment around us changing, that is is going to mean we need to retool.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we're sort of we're permanently looking at the external world for um signs that um the environment is changing or the response of audience is changing.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we can work out and get ahead of where the industry is gonna be in two or three years' time, because I think it's um it's important to do that and have an open mind to the way that the landscape is changing, because it's gonna change, even if you've got great numbers in terms of impact, you won't have in two or three years' time if you're not thinking ahead to well, where is this gonna be?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: How's all the technology changing?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: How are the audience changing, changing their structure, how is the business changing, and how can we prepare for that?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: What a great environment to be part of, David.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and maybe that kind of carries through to the final point around, you know, tips for for listeners in terms of building their careers.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, you know, in terms of kind of the environment they're creating and being part of, how do they how are they additive within that and sort of you know iterating, as you say, to improve all the time and be in step with the market and and client requirement?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything else as a sort of final wrap-up and a bit of a hurrah at the end of this conversation for the listeners?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I mean, to be honest, if uh if I was like uh advising my sons, let's say, about coming into asset management, the first thing I'd say to them is just be inquisitive.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like the door is open, this is the sort of uh early stage of your career, ask as many questions as possible, find out how things work, be the one that is essentially finding out, get yourself into that learning cycle early on.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like the the other thing I'd do because you can question everything because no one expects you to know.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: And to be honest, you should keep questioning everything anyway, because even if things that that work quite well in practice, a good open question can actually reopen that discussion for something that you can improve.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Which is uh and that's always the case.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: So that it's definitely something that you can use throughout your career.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean the other one the other piece of advice was to be be a convener because organizations have got really complex plans.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: If if you're the person, you don't have to be the best at everything.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: You just need to know where the experts are.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you can connect to them and essentially just start to sort of you build a network and start to leverage it to solve problems that the business needs to solve, then that'll get recognized because you know, everyone knows what the problems are.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: The people that organise things to create solutions are the ones that get recognition throughout their careers.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, finally, it's like build the core skills.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think self-awareness is really important in the it's like what what is unique in what in what you can deliver individually, and just focus in that on that sort of generic skill you've got it that gives you an advantage that you can use whatever the environment is.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's like um so mine is I like patterns and I like repeating patterns and I like creating new patterns.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that so also knowing that about yourself and how to then apply that.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just apply it in the circumstances.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think if if you know what you enjoy really enjoy doing, it's much easier to repeat that behaviour and apply it, and then look for other people who are experts in other things and convene them.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um because you're never gonna be expert at everything, so like try not to set off down that path.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a great tip.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Find out who the experts are and and make friends.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: David, I'm always a bit of a magpie when we have conversations you say something and I'm gonna furiously scribble down.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think the last conversation we had, you said something like, Don't worry about the first impression, worry about your lasting impression.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I wonder whether you could just kind of explain a little bit of that for people, because I think it's just brilliant as well, and the way that you framed it when we last spoke.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I I think it's really important because obviously everyone's aware that first impressions count and all that sort of stuff.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: If you're if you're working in an organization and everyone builds up to pitching ideas internally, but the reality is that um what's going to build your career is trust.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: And trust is is earned from the perception that that a stakeholder has when you leave the room.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Are you going to deliver what you said you would, what you came in and presented to them?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that you've just got to build up an environment where um whoever it was has trust in you to deliver against that goal.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because if you can do that, then like actually implementation is king.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um actually pitching an idea and getting business consent for it, that happens every day.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: But the people who do that and then can execute against that plan, they're the ones that stand out because they're the ones that get new problems to solve when that trust is there.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Lovely.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: I know we've overrun, I know there's no way of us making this 20 minutes, but it's been such a great conversation.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, David, for sharing so much of your expertise.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.