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How to Stop Hiding After Trauma (Starting Today) · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: And this is part of the discipline of working through
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: a fairy tale, we could just stare at the lurid
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: part of the fairy tale and then just not look
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: at anything else. But if you really, we're just in
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: the first few sentences, you're really sinking in. This is
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: about trauma, the inability to move on from trauma, strange covenants.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: There are conditions, there are prisons inside of people that
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: they can't get out of.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Welcome to This Jungian Life. Three good friends and Jungian analysts,
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: Lisa Marciano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee, invite you to
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: a psychological perspective to important issues of the day.
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: I'm Lisa Marciano, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Philadelphia.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
• 0:58
  Speaker 4: I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst on Cape Cod.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Today, Lisa's unavailable, so Deb and I are going to
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: handle the podcast, and we're going to talk about a
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: really powerful, intense fairy tale called Alarlaio, which is translates
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: loosely into all kinds of fur. I'll start by reading
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: the fairy tale, and then we'll jump into the symbolic meaning.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: As a bit of orientation, Jungians are interested in fairy
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: tales because we believe that they are the vestigial stories
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: that human beings have created, and the reason they've kept
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: them alive and told them over and over again is
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: that there's some kind of unconscious wisdom that the collective
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: wisdom of humanity is solving for certain problems, and that
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: fairy tales, and myths for that matter, are the artifacts
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  Speaker 1: of figuring out what to do. Many Jungians like von
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  Speaker 1: Franz saw them as vestiges of archetypal events, that the
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: archetypal world has its own evolving life, and that fairy
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: tales are glimpses of things that are changing in the
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: archetypal world. Other theoricians had different perspectives, and we'll be
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: talking about it from a number of different ways.
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  Speaker 4: Fairy tales are one way that we outpicture archetypal images,
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  Speaker 4: archetypal energies and events. Otherwise, they would not have survived
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  Speaker 4: for thousands and thousands and thousands of years. They have
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  Speaker 4: in their brief form, usually without named or well-developed characters,
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  Speaker 4: there's a princess, there's a goose girl, there's a king,
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  Speaker 4: there's a dumbling. They embody energies that we all recognize
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  Speaker 4: and they teach us. These are life events. These are energies.
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  Speaker 4: These are things that happen. And here's how you can
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  Speaker 4: handle it.
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: On Sunday, January 18th, we are hosting a special free
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: seminar called Dreams for Change, a Dream School Taster. Jung
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  Speaker 3: tells us that our dreams are an expression of our
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  Speaker 3: inner life, and they can show us which false attitudes
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  Speaker 3: have led us into a blind alley. Perhaps you're feeling
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: stuck navigating a big life change like finding a new career,
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: facing an empty nest, or trying to figure out who
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: you are after having children. If you're navigating something like that,
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: your dreams can help. Dreams offer a medicine that is precise, personal,
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  Speaker 3: and attuned to your deepest truth. Understanding their symbolic language
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: will help you home in on the information that truly
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  Speaker 3: matters in your moment of change. At this session, we'll
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  Speaker 3: discuss doing dream work in times of major life transition.
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  Speaker 3: You'll be able to ask us questions, and we'll also
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: invite you to send in a dream for analysis during
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: the seminar. These free seminars have proved really popular, so
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: please do book your place soon so you don't miss out.
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: Find the link to sign up in the show notes
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: for this episode.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: The essayist Chesterton wrote, you don't have to convince children
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: that dragons are real. They know dragons are real. Fairy
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: tales tell them what to do about it.
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  Speaker 4: Oh, that's great. So what does this story with the
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  Speaker 4: impossible name Al or Lio have to tell us, Joseph?
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  Speaker 1: Well, we'll jump in. I'll be happy to read the story,
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  Speaker 1: and then we'll see where we take it.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, so sit back, let yourself be read to, and
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: we'll take it from there.
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  Speaker 1: Once upon a time, there was a king who had
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  Speaker 1: the most beautiful wife in the world. Her hair was
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  Speaker 1: pure gold. They had a daughter together, and she was
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  Speaker 1: just as beautiful as her mother, and her hair was
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  Speaker 1: just as golden. One day, the queen became sick. and
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  Speaker 1: when she felt she was about to die, she called
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  Speaker 1: the king to her and made a request. If after
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  Speaker 1: her death he wanted to marry again, he should only
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  Speaker 1: take someone who was as beautiful as she was and
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  Speaker 1: who had golden hair like hers. Once the king promised
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  Speaker 1: her that, she died. For a long time the king
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  Speaker 1: was so distressed that he didn't think about a second wife. Finally,
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  Speaker 1: his counselors urged him to remarry. So messengers were sent
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  Speaker 1: to all the princesses in the world, but none of
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  Speaker 1: them were as beautiful as the dead queen, nor could
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  Speaker 1: they find such golden hair anywhere in the world. Now
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  Speaker 1: one day the king cast his eyes on his own daughter,
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  Speaker 1: and when he saw that her features were very similar
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  Speaker 1: to those of her mother, and that she also had
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  Speaker 1: such golden hair, he thought, hmm, since you won't find
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  Speaker 1: anyone as beautiful in the world, you must marry your daughter.
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  Speaker 1: And right then he felt such a great love for
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  Speaker 1: her that he immediately informed his counselors and the princess
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  Speaker 1: of his decision. The counselors wanted to talk him out
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  Speaker 1: of it, but it was in vain. The princess was
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  Speaker 1: totally horrified about his godless intention. However, since she was smart,
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  Speaker 1: She told the king that he first had to provide
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  Speaker 1: her with three dresses, one as golden as the sun,
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  Speaker 1: one as white as the moon, and one as bright
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  Speaker 1: as the stars, and then a cloak made of a
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  Speaker 1: thousand kinds of pelts and furs, and each animal in
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  Speaker 1: the kingdom had to contribute a piece of its skin
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  Speaker 1: to it. The king had such a passionate desire for
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  Speaker 1: her that everyone in his realm was ordered to work.
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  Speaker 1: His huntsmen had to catch all the animals and take
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  Speaker 1: a piece of their skin. Thus, a cloak was made
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  Speaker 1: from their fur, and it didn't take long before the
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  Speaker 1: king brought the princess what she had demanded. Now, the
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  Speaker 1: princess said that she would marry him the next day. However,
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  Speaker 1: during the night, she collected the gifts she had received
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  Speaker 1: from her fiancé from another kingdom, a golden ring, a
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  Speaker 1: little golden spinning wheel, and a little golden reel, and
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  Speaker 1: the three dresses, all of which she put into a nutshell.
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  Speaker 1: Then she blackened her face and hands with soot, put
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  Speaker 1: on the cloak made of all kinds of fur, and departed.
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  Speaker 1: She walked the whole night until she reached a great
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  Speaker 1: forest where she was safe. Since she was tired, she
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  Speaker 1: climbed into a hollow tree and fell asleep. She continued
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  Speaker 1: to sleep until it became broad daylight. As it so happened,
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  Speaker 1: the king, her bridegroom, was out hunting in the forest.
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  Speaker 1: When his dogs came to the tree, they started to
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  Speaker 1: sniff and run around it. The king sent his huntsmen
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  Speaker 1: to see what kind of animal was hiding in the tree.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: When they returned to him, They said that there was
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  Speaker 1: a strange animal lying in it. They'd never seen anything
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  Speaker 1: like it in their lives. Its skin was made up
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  Speaker 1: of a thousand different kinds of fur, and it was
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  Speaker 1: lying there asleep. Then the king ordered them to catch
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  Speaker 1: it and tie it on the back of the wagon.
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  Speaker 1: The huntsmen did this, and as they pulled it from
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  Speaker 1: the tree, they saw it was a maiden. Then they
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  Speaker 1: tied her on the back of the wagon and drove
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  Speaker 1: home with her. All fur, they said. You'll do well
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  Speaker 1: to work in the kitchen. You can carry wood and
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  Speaker 1: water and sweep up the ashes. Then they gave her
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  Speaker 1: a little stall beneath the steps. You can live and
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  Speaker 1: sleep there. So she had to work in the kitchen,
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: where she helped the cook, plucked the chickens, tended the fire,
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  Speaker 1: sorted the vegetables, and did all the dirty work. Since
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  Speaker 1: she did everything so diligently, the cook was good to
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  Speaker 1: her and sometimes called, all fur, to him in the
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  Speaker 1: evening and gave her some of the leftovers to eat.
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  Speaker 1: Before the king went to bed, she had to go
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  Speaker 1: upstairs and pull off his boots, and as soon as
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  Speaker 1: she would pull off one, he would always throw it
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  Speaker 1: at her head. And so all fur, led a miserable
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  Speaker 1: life for a long time. Ah, you beautiful maiden, what
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  Speaker 1: shall become of you? At one time, a ball was
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  Speaker 1: held in the castle, and all fur thought, well, perhaps
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  Speaker 1: now I could see my dear bridegroom once again. So
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  Speaker 1: she went to the cook and asked him to allow
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  Speaker 1: her to go upstairs for a while to see the
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  Speaker 1: splendor from the doorway. Evidently, the princess had never met
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  Speaker 1: her fiancé, her bridegroom. Go ahead, said the cook, but
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  Speaker 1: you can't stay longer than half an hour. You gotta
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  Speaker 1: sweep up the ashes tonight. So all fur... took her
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  Speaker 1: little oil lamp, went into her little stall, and washed
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  Speaker 1: the soot off her so that her beauty came to
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  Speaker 1: light again like flowers in springtime. Then she took off
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  Speaker 1: the fur cloak, opened the nut, and took out the
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  Speaker 1: dress that shone like the sun. When she was fully dressed,
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  Speaker 1: she went upstairs, and everyone made way for her, for
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  Speaker 1: they believed that she was nothing less than a distinguished
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  Speaker 1: princess who had come into the ballroom. The king immediately
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  Speaker 1: offered her his hand and led her forth to dance,
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  Speaker 1: and as he was dancing with her, he thought, This
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  Speaker 1: unknown princess resembles my dear bride. And the longer he
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  Speaker 1: gazed at her, the more she resembled her, so that
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  Speaker 1: he was almost certain that it was her. When the
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  Speaker 1: dance ended, he wanted to ask her. However, As she
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  Speaker 1: finished the dance, she curtsied and disappeared before the king
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  Speaker 1: could speak. Then he asked the guards, but nobody had
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  Speaker 1: seen the princess leave the castle. She had quickly run
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  Speaker 1: to her little stall, taken off her dress, blackened her
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  Speaker 1: face and hands, and put on the fur cloak once again.
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  Speaker 1: Then she went into the kitchen and started to sweep
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  Speaker 1: up the ashen. Let it be until morning, the cook said.
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  Speaker 1: I want to go upstairs and take a look at
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  Speaker 1: the dance, make a soup for the king. but don't
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  Speaker 1: let any hairs fall in it, otherwise you'll get nothing
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  Speaker 1: more to eat. All fur cooked a bread soup for
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  Speaker 1: the king, and then at the end, she slipped the
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  Speaker 1: golden ring that the king had given to her as
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  Speaker 1: a present into the soup. When the ball came to
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  Speaker 1: an end, the king had his bread soup brought to him,
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  Speaker 1: and it tasted so good that he was convinced he'd
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  Speaker 1: never eaten one so good before. However, when he had finished,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: he found the ring in the bottom of the bowl.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: As he looked at it carefully, he saw that it
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  Speaker 1: was his wedding ring and was puzzled. He couldn't grasp
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  Speaker 1: how the ring came to be in there, and so
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  Speaker 1: he had the cook summoned, and the cook became angry
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: with all fur. You must have certainly let a hare
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  Speaker 1: fall into the soup. If that's not true, you'll get
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: a beating. However, when the cook went upstairs, the king
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: asked him who had cooked the soup, because it had
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: been better than usual. So the cook had to confess
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: that all fur had made it, and the king ordered
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: him to send all fur up to him. When she came,
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  Speaker 1: the king said, Who are you, and what are you
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  Speaker 1: doing in my castle? Where did you get the ring
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  Speaker 1: that was in my soup? And then she replied, I'm
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  Speaker 1: nothing but a poor child whose mother and father are dead.
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  Speaker 1: I'm nothing, and I'm good for nothing except to have
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  Speaker 1: boots thrown at my head, and I also know nothing
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  Speaker 1: about the ring. Upon saying that, she ran away. Sometime later,
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  Speaker 1: there was another ball, and once again, Olfer asked the
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: cook's permission to go upstairs. The cook allowed her, but
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: only for half an hour, and then she was to
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: return and cook the bread soup for the kings. So
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: all fur went to her little stall, washed herself clean,
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  Speaker 1: took out the dress as silvery as the moon, and
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  Speaker 1: cleaner and more sparkling than fallen snow. When she peered upstairs,
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  Speaker 1: the dance had already begun. The king offered his hand
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: to her again and danced with her. He no longer
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: doubted that she was his bride, for nobody in the
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: world except her had such golden hair. However, when the
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: dance was over, The princess had already departed once again,
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  Speaker 1: and despite all his efforts, the king couldn't find her,
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  Speaker 1: and he hadn't even spoken a single word to her. Indeed,
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  Speaker 1: she was all fur again, with blackened hands and face.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: She stood in the kitchen and cooked the bread soup
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: for the king while the cook went upstairs to watch
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  Speaker 1: the dance. When the soup was done, she put the
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: golden spinning wheel into the bowl. The king ate the soup,
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: and it seemed even better this time, and when he
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: found the golden spinning wheel at the bottom, he was
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: even more astounded because he had at one time sent
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: it to his bride as a present. The cook was summoned,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: and then all fur, but once again she replied that
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: she knew nothing about it and she was only there
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: to have boots thrown at her head. When the king
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: held a ball for the third time, He hoped his
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: ride would come again, and he wanted to make sure
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: to hold on to her. Olfer asked the cook again
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: to let her go upstairs, but he scolded her and said.
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  Speaker 4: You're a witch.
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  Speaker 1: You always put something in the soup, and you can
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: cook it better than I do. However, since she pleaded
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  Speaker 1: so passionately and promised to behave herself, he let her
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: go upstairs again for half an hour. Thereupon she put
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: on the dress that sparkled as bright as the stars
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: in the night and went upstairs and danced with the king.
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  Speaker 1: He thought he had never seen her more beautiful. As
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: they were dancing, however, he slipped a ring onto her
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  Speaker 1: finger and ordered the dance to last for a very
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: long time. Nevertheless, he couldn't hold on to her. nor
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: could he speak a single word to her, for when
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: the dance was over, she mingled with the people so
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: quickly that she vanished before he turned around. All fur
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: ran to her little stall, and since she had been
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: away longer than half an hour, she undressed quickly. In
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: her hurry, she couldn't blacken herself completely so that a
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: finger remained white. When she went into the kitchen, the
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: cook was already upstairs, and she quickly cooked the bread soup,
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: and she put the golden reel into it. Just as
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: he found the ring and the golden spinning wheel, the
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: king also found the reel. Now he knew for sure
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: that his bride was nearby, for nobody else could have
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: possessed the presents. All fur was summoned and wanted once
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: again to avoid the king and run away. However, as
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: she tried to run off, the king caught sight of
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: the white finger on her hand and held her tight.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: He found the ring that he had slipped onto her
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: finger and tore off her fur cloak. Then her golden
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: hair toppled down, and she was his dearly beloved bride.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Now the cook was richly rewarded, and the king held
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: the wedding solemnly. and they lived happily until their death.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: And this was the ring he had sent to her
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: as a gift. Breaking the fourth wall there with some
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: of those comments. That's interesting. So it's a long story.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: It is a story that Jungians are curious about. It
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: shows up in anthologies and Azunians try to find metaphors
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: to talk about certain very complicated internal dynamics, archetypal, and
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: sometimes very sad outer realities. But we begin with a
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: daughter who's tied to her father, the anima animus projections,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: and then a very complicated coniuntio dynamic that's kind of
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: in the air kind of influences her father and then
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: of course it's present with the young king that she's
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: going to eventually marry so we have a problem there's
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: a dead queen and she demands a replacement as beautiful
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: as herself with the exact same golden hair which basically
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: is impossible and invites the problem into the story.
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: I'm thinking of a couple of things right here at
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: the outset of that, just like a dream. What is
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: the presenting problem?
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: You know, so the presenting problem is the king who
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: has the most beautiful wife in the world loses her.
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: She dies. Yeah.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: So it starts with the trauma.
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: Starts with the trauma and then a strange request to say,
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: don't marry anyone else ever. Unless she looks exactly like me.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: And that's a setup.
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: Exactly. That's exactly it. That's a setup. But what does
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: that mean psychologically? If you can replace me with somebody
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: who looks just the same as I do, it will
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: be okay. So there's something here about persona and beauty
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: and this whole golden hair stick and all that stuff. Uh,
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: I have to wonder about the queen who, in her
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: dying moments, thinks about making this a condition. And whether
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: my question is, is the queen protecting her daughter, knowing that,
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: you know, even though she's the queen's daughter, this is impossible.
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: I'm going to protect her because no matter what, she's
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: not going to look just like me. Or do we
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: have a narcissistic queen who believes that she's so special
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: and her beauty is so special that that sets a
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: standard for anyone that would follow her?
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: I think all of that can ring true. And I'm
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: also imagining that on her deathbed, She's setting up the
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: impossible condition that I suspect is going to leave the
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: king unable to ever remarry, which means he will ever
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: remember her and pine for her, that she'll never be
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: forgotten because she can never be replaced.
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: Right. It's the first, however, of the impossible conditions that
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: keep being fulfilled.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Oops.
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: Like, oh, this can never happen. Oh, yes, it does.
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: The daughter does look, as it turns out, just exactly
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: like the queen in every respect. And then it falls
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: to the daughter to make her own impossible conditions. She's
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: resorting to what she thinks is the trickster in saying
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: to her father, oh, okay, dad, I'll marry you, but
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: I need to dress as bright as the sun and
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: a moon, one like the moon and one like the stars.
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: He'll never be able to do this. So there's something
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: about setting a condition in itself and of itself that
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: doesn't address the real problem, right? The real problem for
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: the king and the queen who's dying is, This is terrible.
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: It's unbelievably sad. The queen doesn't want to die and
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: end her life and have her daughter be motherless. But
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: the queen cannot grieve that, and neither can the king. Right.
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: Because that impossible condition has already been stipulated. But unless,
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: of course, you could find somebody who looks just like me.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Exactly. So for years, the king is now alone. He's lonely.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: He doesn't have a paramour. He doesn't have a partner.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: He doesn't want to betray his promise to his deceased wife,
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: who has trapped him into this crucible where tension is
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: building and building and building and building and building until, frankly,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: it kind of makes him crazy. And then he suggests
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: something that's kind of crazy.
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: This impossible condition thing reminds me a little bit of
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: those fairy tales where there's something that is forbidden, like
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: in the Bluebeard story, see this little key right here?
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: Make sure you don't use that one. Well, then, of course,
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: you know what's going to happen. Cinderella is forbidden to
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: go to the ball, but of course you know what's
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: going to happen. This is the flip side of it.
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: It will be possible if you can do this, and
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: it sets up a desire in the king. that maybe
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: I can't find somebody as beautiful as my deceased wife.
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: And then it gets passed on to Alalara O. I
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: will never master that name.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: It's a very unusual name, isn't it?
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: It's German, I think. But at any rate, it sets
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: up the condition for her that she can set up
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: impossible conditions. But once you do that, you know they're
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: going to be met. Because the real issue... which she's
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: going to engage, is this is an awful thing, and
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: she is repulsed by it, and she wants out of there. Yeah.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: So the king might represent an ego that is trapped
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: in a kind of bizarre inner contract that is unworkable,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: it cannot be achieved, and there's a kind of inflation.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: that he is going to keep the queen anima inside
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: the royal ego forever and ever and just keep finding
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: substitutes for her, even if it's his own child, rather
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: than mourning and renewing. Because if he could just have
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: woken up and said, that was a ridiculous thing for
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: my wife to ask and a ridiculous thing for me
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: to agree to, I'm not going to hold. That's a
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: ridiculous contract. But he can't let go of the unfortunate promise.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: How many of us in moments of great distress and
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: maybe trauma make a kind of covenant with something inside
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: of us that later on impairs our ability to heal
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: and grow? And sometimes that sounds like, I will never
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: trust this kind of a person again. or I'll never
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: date again, or all of the extremes that we find
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: ourselves declaring when we've been in the field of a trauma.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: Some of those things we outgrow, but sometimes we don't,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: and those people find their way into our analytic rooms.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: You've got some strange rule in there that's kind of
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: skewing your game. And a lot of times they don't
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: remember the covenant, If they can find the wrong covenant
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: and look at it now from an adult perspective, often
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: they can let it go. But if they can't find it,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: it's like a little weird computer virus that just keeps
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: working in the background.
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: The king wants the replacement for his dead wife, and
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: it has been set up for him that it It
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: might be possible. He scours the earth. The tale says
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: every princess everywhere has been inventoried, as it were, and
• 27:33
  Speaker 4: found wanting. And then he makes an egotistical decision.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: Yes, he does.
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: He's a king. I have the power to decide. I
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: went looking. Definitely going to marry my daughter. That's my decision,
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: and that's final. How many people have made that bargain?
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: And he's divorced from any empathy for his daughter because
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: she's horrified, but he can't feel it. His ministers have
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: the courage to say, don't do this. This is not
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: a good thing. But again, he's inflated and also locked
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: into this impossible covenant and can't give himself permission to
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: renegotiate the contract. So it's her or no one.
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: So thinking about how many people have goals and aims
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: in the real world to satisfy a desire, perhaps for
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: status or wealth, you know, whatever the thing is that
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: symbolizes the treasure. We could all say, well, it's psychic treasure.
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: that those things symbolize, but how many people chase, you know,
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: what we might call just worldly treasures of how much
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: money is enough money? What about, you know, cars and
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: seeking to fulfill something that can never be fulfilled? Because
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: what is inside is radically different from questing for something
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: in the external world.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: So there's something about literalizing something that should just be
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: a metaphor or be symbolic. But also, he's not moving
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: forward in life. He wants to move backward. So he
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: wants to go backwards in time, reconstellate the marriage to
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: the queen, which is an impossible and horrifying thing. way
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: about that, rather than move forward, either make peace with
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: being celibate, being a solo king, so to speak, or
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: suffer the internal turbulence of finding a queen that the
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: old queen wouldn't have approved of. to just break the rule.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: He's going to spin backwards in time, regress. Right.
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: I want it the way it was.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Exactly. The good old days. And whatever the cost is
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: to other people, not important. Because restoring the good old days,
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: that's the thing we should be doing here.
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: You know, I can feel a certain kind of sadness
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: in this, you know. Here it is. It's a quote.
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: It's a fairy tale. And yet this is so poignant
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: and so incredibly sad. And everybody listening to us or
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: who's ever read the fairy tale would have this exact
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: same place of like, you can't do that. Right. You
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: can't have that. You know, or the thing like in Rumpelstiltskin,
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: Rumpelstiltskin wants the firstborn baby. And it's sort of like,
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: you can't have that.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Yes, who? What kind of a person asks for that?
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: We all recognize, you know, how deeply wrong this is,
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: psychically and psychologically.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really a tragedy. And if we can, and
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: this is part of the discipline of working through a
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: fairy tale, we could just stare at the lurid part
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: of the fairy tale and then just not look at
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: anything else. But if you really were just in the
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: first few sentences, you're really sinking in. This is about trauma,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: the inability to move on from trauma, strange covenants, children
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: left behind. There are so many complicated dynamics that then
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: give rise to this perversion. And as it is true
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: for everyone who winds up doing something dangerously, damagingly perverse,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: There are conditions, there are prisons inside of people that
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: they can't get out of. And then the terrible option
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: begins to feel like the only option. And that winds
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: up being deeply, deeply tragic.
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So our princess decides she has to get out
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: of there.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: And she's got to get three dresses first. Dresses are
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: a big deal in fairy tales.
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: I love the dresses. And I also love the thing
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: that comes a little later that she can put all
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: of these things in a nut.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: In a nutshell, she's got magical powers right from the beginning.
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: Absolutely. Sure. And this willing suspension of disbelief is like, oh, yeah,
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: that's no problem. Of course, they would fit in. After all,
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: they're sort of magical dresses. So why not? But this
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: introduces the theme of persona. The queen was very, very beautiful.
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: Now the daughter, the princess, is also very, very beautiful.
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: She's going to have these gorgeous dresses like the sun,
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: the moon, and the stars. And then she has these
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: little golden gifts from the fiancé to whom she was
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: promised before dad decided he was going to abrogate that.
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: So we have these beautiful things, and then we have
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: her awful feeling. I mean, it looks like it's just gross,
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: this cloak. I mean, all these 1,000 little skins from
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: every kind of animal, it would look weird. And yet
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: a lot of trouble. It's not just a skin from
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: one animal. It has to be from every animal.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: And there's four of them. And four is a very
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: interesting number for Jungians because it represents the quaternity, and
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: it kind of points to something larger than the sum
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: of the parts. So she's got a sundress, a moondress,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: a stardress, and a fur dress. And the fur dress
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: is the one she wears most of the time.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: And, you know, I think about this as this cloak,
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: but she must look like the weirdest, scruffiest, patchwork-y, chaotic
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: little animal that ever walked the earth. But what is
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: she covering herself with? Maybe a way of saying instinctual, animalistic,
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: lowly realities, not just... from a donkey, which is a
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: variation on the tail, but from squirrels and bats and
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: rabbits and antelopes and you name it. It's as base
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: level psychologically as you can get.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: So this is something that happens to all of us
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: when we are in impossible situations, that we will regress
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: to an instinctive level To save the core of the
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: personality and to camouflage ourselves, which doesn't really cure the problem.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: You can kind of see that she keeps returning to
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: the camouflage, that the young king needs to kind of
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: rescue her from this trauma cycle that she finds herself
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: trapped in. Because it's traumatic to have this terrible situation
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: with the father. and she's lost her home, she's lost
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: all security, she's cast out into the woods with little
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: to no resources, so she camouflages herself in this multiplicity
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: of instinct, but she's also escaping the sterile court of
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: the old king, because that's a sterile place. There's no
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: feminine principle, there's no fertile principle. left in the kingdom.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: So she goes back to that archaic level inside of herself.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: And that does have a saving process. And the dresses
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: all represent different attitudes as well. Yeah.
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: I am thinking, though, of this. It's such a big
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: question of what does this cloak represent? Of regression? Yep.
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: Absolutely to instinctual base level access to life, sources of life,
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: and persona of she must look like some sort of awful,
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: scruffy animal, which is exactly what they say, that they
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: see it's this weird animal and tie it on top
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: of the wagon.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: They don't even think she's human. The disguise is so successful.
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: Right. And I see it's a maiden, but it represents,
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: and then she gets to the kingdom and they say, well, okay,
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: you know, you can work in the kitchen a la Cinderella,
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: cleaning the scullery and doing all the dirty work of
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: a persona disguise and a willingness to be lowly like Cinderella. Right.
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: and yet she has hidden treasures. So it sort of
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: sets up the divergence between appearance and status and character.
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: A smart cookie. She's a very smart cookie. I'm out
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: of here. I thought about these dresses. I'm taking the
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: gifts that I was given from my fiancé, and I'm
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: ordering this covering that is kind of really weird and
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: gross looking, and I'm leaving.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: But it's good for camouflage because it works.
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: She's able to move through the forest looking like a
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: creature of the forest, which affords her some protection in
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: this wilderness of the unconscious where she's seeking rest.
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: And then, you know, people see the persona of this
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: animal skin cloak And they set her to work in
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: the scullery. And then when she has to go up
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: and serve the king, she has to take his boots
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: off and he throws one at her. Because after all,
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: she's just a worthless scullery maid.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: So the camouflage has worked. She's convincing everybody that she's
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: not worth anything more than just scraps and boots and
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: menial labor. You know, I.
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: always want to jump in here, not just this fairy tale,
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: but others of like, oh, you know, and then when
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: later on when I showed up in my dresses and
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: with all these special treasures, then you liked me. But
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: what about when I was cloaked in animal fur and
• 39:23
  Speaker 4: you threw your boot at me? Makes me kind of
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: wonder about the character of the bridegroom, but never mind
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: that now.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: It's not an appealing thing to think of this powerful
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: person throwing stuff at the head of the servant. It's
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: an ugly moment for sure. But I want to also
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: take a moment to think about the kitchen. Because kitchens
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: are alchemical laboratories. They take raw things and they cook them.
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: And then something better comes out. And when she's given
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: the opportunity to display her own ability to transform the
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: prima materia into something delicious, lo and behold, she's quite skilled.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: It's also quite an unusual skill. I think most princesses
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: probably weren't cooking in the kitchens. But she has some
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: talent that she can call upon. So... She's carrying all
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: of this instinct inside of her. Healthy instinct. Like it
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: was the instinct that said, run, get out of here.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: That's a good instinct. Find a camouflage that works. Good instinct.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: She has an instinct how to cook. Good instinct. So
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: she's cooking all this instinctive stuff and she's doing a
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: good job. It kind of tastes good. And she's got
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: a relationship with the cook. And even though he's garrulous
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: and rough, he also kind of likes her and takes
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: care of her a bit. He's just not terribly refined.
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: Much like her coat.
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. He sets a limit on it and kind of,
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: he's kind of growly, or at least you were growly.
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: But he lets her go. And she has another good
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: instinct of, and this goes back to Cinderella, in a
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: lot of our fairy tale heroines, Cinderella wants to go
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: to the ball. And this princess wants to go to
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: the ball. She does not take on a belief in
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: or an identity with herself as the scullery maid covered in,
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: by this time, a dirty cloak. She knows who she is.
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: And so she goes to the ball in fairy tale motif,
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: the golden dress, the silver dress, the star-like dress. And
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: she drops little hints in the king's soup of, I
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: bet you wonder where this came from.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: Yes, she's definitely wanting to be discovered, even as she
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: tells him to throw a boot at her head. So
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: this conundrum of being trapped in her trauma, really, These
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: fairy tales don't use psychological language. It's for us to
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: try to understand.
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: She's found herself her way to someplace that looks like
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: it might be helpful, but she still uses her defensive technique,
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: even when it's probably not the best thing to do anymore.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: And that's exactly what trauma does to us. Maybe as
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: a child, we're subject to terrible conditions. The brain learns
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: how to dissociate to keep us away from fully experiencing it.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: And then 40 years later, we're nowhere near being treated
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: like that ever again. But we still, or at least
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: the psyche, still revives this dissociative defense, even when it's
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: not necessary any longer. So she keeps returning to the
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: instinctive camouflage, even when it is no longer necessary. And
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: that's a real statement about how we need to kind
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: of We need some help to work out of our
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: trauma-based defenses and protections. I want to talk a little
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: bit about the nut, though.
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: Well, a nut is a seed.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: And inside of seeds, if you plant them, they sprout
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: and they become trees. So, you know, inside of a
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: nut is a microcosm. And she places these celestial... Sun, moon,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: and stars, the cosmic order, is put into this little
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: secret microcosm. That's where her potential is hidden. That hasn't
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: sprouted yet. And it's kept safe. And that's a theme
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: that happens over and again. She's safe in the shroud
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: of the fur. Her potential is safe in the seed box.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: She's also safe because she's cunning and smart. She kind
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: of knows how to keep herself safe.
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: I also am appreciating the theme here where she drops
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: hints of herself. And in one variation of the tale,
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: they sort of merge it with Cinderella, that it's a
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: shoe that she leaves. But the next part of the
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: story is... that the king has to come looking for her.
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: The king has to get it. The king has to say,
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: you know, who was that wonderful creature? He can't just
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: hold onto her. So he puts a ring on her
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: finger by which he can later recognize her. But the
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: king needs to activate. He needs to become interested in
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: And questing. She drops all these hints. And, of course,
• 45:10
  Speaker 4: we're talking about, I think our listeners probably know by now,
• 45:15
  Speaker 4: we're talking about one psyche.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: A Jungian orientation to a fairy tale is that the
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: various situations and characters in the tale are like different
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: parts of one person's, yours and my. Something else in
• 45:35
  Speaker 4: the psyche, imaged as the king, has to be activated.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: And there's this wisdom in her returning the artifacts of
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: his affection back to him that rouses some... It's uncanny
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: to him. It's startling to him. but it's the thing
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: that gives him this energy to go on the search,
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: to figure out this mystery.
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: And they're all gold, golden, the eternal, incorruptible.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: Like her hair.
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: Like her hair, the metal, but what is everlasting. And
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: it's interesting that there's a ring, sort of like, oh, okay,
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: I get that. You put a ring in there, naturally. Sure,
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: to your fiancé, send a ring. A spinning wheel and
• 46:33
  Speaker 4: a little golden reel. I got intrigued with the idea
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: of spinning wheels. So this has got to be this
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: little miniature spinning wheel, but that has been the classic
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: occupation of women for millennia. It was always women who
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: did the spinning, who turned the plant material into thread
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: that could then become clothing and other objects. It's another
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: image of transformation, like the kitchen transforms raw material into edible,
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: and the spinning wheel transforms plant material into fabric, into
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: thread and then into fabric. The golden reel, I have
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: to say, stumps me. Are we talking fishing rod reels?
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: Will we ever know? Yes.
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: It's like, what the heck is a sea hare in
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: one of those fairy tales? I'm not sure exactly what
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: it means, but they're gold, and that has to do
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: with incorruptibility. Yeah. And so even though she has swathed
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: herself in soot and dirt and furs, she smells bad
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: and all of that, something underneath all of the outer
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: seeming is incorruptible, which is a symbol of the self.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: And this is a very important attitude that I think
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: as a Jungian I hold, is no matter what trauma
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: somebody has survived and they come to work something out,
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: there is something incorruptible, pure and undefiled at the center
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: of every human being, that the worst, worst, worst, terrible
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: circumstance still cannot reach and i think that the fairy
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: tale is suggesting that i do.
• 48:35
  Speaker 4: Too and i i also think this this tale offers
• 48:39
  Speaker 4: such a vivid image of a theme that's present in
• 48:44
  Speaker 4: many fairy tales of the need for both suffering which
• 48:52
  Speaker 4: the original king and his queen really couldn't do But
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: Alor Lio, if I get that right, finally, can do.
• 49:06
  Speaker 4: She humbles herself. She's a scullery maid. She's covered with soot.
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: I'm sure there's no shower in her cubby under the stairs.
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: And she endures. And many... a fairy tale heroine and prince,
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: this is the part of the story that you have
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: to go through the suffering, the humiliation, in order to
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: have your treasure recovered. the incorruptible gold, golden hair union
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: with the inner opposite. It is a long and grueling process,
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: and you need to keep your wits about you and
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: not be discouraged.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: And there's a timing to everything that's also a little
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: out of canny. I mean, he's interested in her. She
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: seems interested in him. She could have just kept the
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: first sundress on and just kind of kept moving forward,
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: I suppose. Just stay there, tell him her story or something.
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: But she needs to go through these cycles of showing
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: who she is and hiding who she is, showing who
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: she is, hiding who she is, showing the incorruptible and
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: then going back into the negrado, the soot, the kitchen.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: Why is that? And what I would suggest is it
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: reminds me just a little bit of trauma work. That
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: trauma work's not just a straight 45 degree angle. It's
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: you do it and then you're back in it. And
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: then you're working on it and then you're back in it.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: But each time it is a little bit different. It's
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: the solar dress and then the moon dress and then
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: the stars dress. So each time she gets out of
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: the trauma, it's a little bit different until finally she
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: There's enough tension built in the psyche. And then the prince,
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: who I think represents the new healthy attitude, can really
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: just lay hold of her and say, come on, enough
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: of this suffering. Let's get back into life.
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: Right. The king, this is a young king, a revitalized king,
• 51:25
  Speaker 4: and an appropriate love object for... the princess. This is
• 51:35
  Speaker 4: the classic theme in fairy tales of third times, you know,
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: we have a saying, third time's a charm. Jack goes
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: up the beanstalk three times. You know, it's always three times.
• 51:49
  Speaker 4: And partly we want to say, okay, we get it.
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: You know, she's going to do the golden dress and
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: she's going to do the silver dress. Just cut to
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: the chase. Just go ahead, get to the conclusion. But
• 51:59
  Speaker 4: it does really image the work of development, of psychic development,
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: that we can't just do it in one fell swoop,
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: just as you were saying, that we have to approach
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: with one thing, then we fall back, then we try again,
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: until the fourth is the transformative thing, that after three tries,
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: It changes. The situation changes. The king puts a ring
• 52:34
  Speaker 4: on her finger and manages to identify her. The prince
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: seeks out Cinderella and discovers, you know, he tries first
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: one stepsister, then another. Third time's a charm. That's what
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: it takes to do the transformative process. And that's the
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: endurance theme that I think this fairy tale and many
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: others really give us an image of. But this one
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: is very, because of the theme of incest and, you know,
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: a parent rejecting a child and yet wanting her for
• 53:14
  Speaker 4: exploitive purposes, it really highlights the need for endurance.
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: And these things play out subtly without that same shocking level.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: How many parents are very ambivalent about their children going
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: away from home? How many dads are ambivalent about their
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: daughter starting to date? It doesn't mean there's something nefarious
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: in it, but there is something on that archetypal level
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: that makes it difficult to let go.
• 53:43
  Speaker 4: That's another theme in this tale. The king at the outset,
• 53:49
  Speaker 4: can't let go and constructs the false hope. So there's
• 53:54
  Speaker 4: the holding on and the letting go.
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: And then luckily, there is enough life for us because
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: the danger always is, if we've experienced a major betrayal
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: and a trauma, that we may collapse under the burden
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: of the wound and then either barely survive or just
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: stay hidden, stay marginal. forever there's something inside of her
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: that is strong enough to keep venturing outside of the
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: costume she still wants to remember who she is despite
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: her diminished circumstances and i would suggest that those little
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: forays they're only 30 minutes let me just let me
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: look beautiful again for 30 minutes and then i'll go
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: back and put the sun on my face Can I
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: just remember? This is very interesting to me. When Jung
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: was caught in the unconscious, he's playing in the mud,
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: the shores of Lake Zurich, very much like the soot-covered Alalera.
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: He's covered in mud. He's been doing these figurines. And
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: as he's walking back to his home and office, he
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: has to repeat to himself who he is. I'm Dr. Jung.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: I have patients, I have children, I have a wife,
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: I have responsibilities, that Jung understood that forgetting who he
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: was would be very dangerous. And there's a wisdom in
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: the fairy tale that even though she doesn't feel safe
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: enough to really claim her status as a princess, she
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: needs to dip into it at least three times so
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: it doesn't disappear completely. And of course, that makes all
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: the difference because if she never went up for those
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: three 30 minutes, Prince never would have found her. She
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: just would have spent a life in the soot.
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: And that, I think, is one of the great gifts
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: of fairy tales is they do end happily ever after.
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: The treasure is found. It might be a magic cup,
• 56:12
  Speaker 4: it might be a magic elixir, it might be the
• 56:16
  Speaker 4: prince or the princess of whatever symbolizes the eternal, incorruptible
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: prize and good, psychic good, and that it is attainable.
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: Hang in there. Don't give up. And like... Allerlio, it
• 56:42
  Speaker 4: is essential to keep your own knowing of your worth,
• 56:50
  Speaker 4: your princess or prince-like qualities, your golden treasure, your affinity
• 56:58
  Speaker 4: with sun, moon, stars, the transcendent. Never forget that. Don't
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: identify with in this case, the cloak of fur. That's
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: not who you are. That's not who you are.
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: And to allow someone to at least get a glimpse
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: of who you really are, even if you can't tolerate
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: living in that space, but to give yourself and the
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: other person even just a glimpse of And that can
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: be a place that things are built upon for the
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: new life.
• 57:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah. How do we hold on to and honor our truth?
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: So with that, we'll make a transition into a dream.
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: And in a sense, I would offer to people, every night,
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: the dream maker tailors a fairy tale, puts you in
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: as one of the characters, and it plays out.
• 58:01
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: And it's giving you a solution to something that is
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: so intimately true for you.
• 58:10
  Speaker 4: One of the sayings is that fairy tales and myths
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: are dreams of the collective. And our personal dreams are
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: our own personal versions of fairy tales and myths. This
• 58:37
  Speaker 4: dreamer is a woman who's 44, and she is a
• 58:41
  Speaker 4: speech and language pathologist, and here is the dream. I
• 58:47
  Speaker 4: found myself in complete darkness. I opened my eyes as
• 58:52
  Speaker 4: wide as I could, hoping to find light. There was none.
• 58:56
  Speaker 4: I realized with horror that this made me very vulnerable.
• 58:59
  Speaker 4: I could be attacked and not see it coming. I
• 59:03
  Speaker 4: knew what I had to do. I needed to grow fur.
• 59:07
  Speaker 4: I concentrated hard on getting through. to grow on my legs.
• 59:12
  Speaker 4: A soft fuzz appeared. I then held up my hand
• 59:15
  Speaker 4: and noticed there was the smallest bit of light now,
• 59:19
  Speaker 4: as though the sun was rising, but I couldn't see
• 59:22
  Speaker 4: the source. As I made out the image of my hand,
• 59:27
  Speaker 4: I saw my flesh bubbling like a thick liquid. I
• 59:32
  Speaker 4: was pleased. Hair would soon grow there, too. I focused
• 59:37
  Speaker 4: on my back, trying to will hair to spring up
• 59:40
  Speaker 4: from my flesh, but it was too hard to make
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: a connection with that part of my body. I was worried.
• 59:49
  Speaker 4: I needed that fur on my back for protection. So
• 59:53
  Speaker 4: for context, she says... I've been thinking a lot about
• 59:57
  Speaker 4: which relationships in my life to give energy to. My
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 4: sister and her family are moving across the country soon,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 4: and I find this change heartbreaking. There are two unhealthy
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 4: relationships I have taken a lot of space from in
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 4: the past few years, one with a friend with whom
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 4: I felt enmeshed, and one with my own mother whose
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: presence re-triggers my psychic wounds. Though I have my own family,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 4: a husband and two children, and we're happy, I have
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 4: a sense that without my sister here, I will be
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 4: all alone. I'm afraid I will let this old friend
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 4: or my mother back into my safe space. The main
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 4: feelings in the dream, she says, was fear of being
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 4: attacked in the dark, relief and awe that I could
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 4: grow protective fur. Hope. that I could make contact with
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 4: all parts of my body so that I could be
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 4: completely covered in this fur. And for additional context, she adds,
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 4: my mother was not well when I was growing up.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 4: She was physically violent and to my knowledge does not
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 4: process her own childhood wounds. She continues to blame others
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 4: for her past behavior and is generally unaccountable. I do
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 4: not permit her to be alone with my children, though
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 4: I have fostered something of a relationship between them. I
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 4: feel a lot of guilt for the ways I withhold
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 4: myself and my children from my mom, even though she
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 4: does not seem very interested in us as human beings anyway.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 4: At this time, I only see my mother about twice
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 4: a year for holidays and always with my sister present.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: I'm scared to be the only kid out there. responsible
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 4: for my mother's care when she becomes old.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: So the first thing I want to impress upon people is,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: look at how alive these archetypal themes are.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, I just did a survey of the dreams
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: people had submitted, and I was like, wow, you know,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: this protective fur theme, this, people get it. It's in
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: that deep, deep, deep level of the psyche.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 4: Oh, this is such a poignant dream. I can just,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 4: sometimes I want to say to our listeners of really
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 4: pay attention to how a dream affects you. Some dreams
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 4: don't carry a big charge and we work with them
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 4: and so on. But other times a dream just comes
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 4: in with such power. That we really feel it and
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 4: there's a bodily reaction to it. And that's my experience
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 4: first off with this dream and how poignant it is.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 4: Like the fairy tale we just talked about, that she
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 4: will have protective fur. And here we are, you know,
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 4: I get it. You know, we are these naked hominids
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 4: without claws or particularly sharp teeth or wings or anything else.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 4: But the fur can protect us, shield us, and keep
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 4: us warm. She needs to grow the fur.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: So she's in complete darkness. She's stretching her human eyes
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: as wide as she can, trying to see if she
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: can penetrate the darkness, and she can't. And then she
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: has a realization that she is really vulnerable, that whatever
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: else might see better than her in the darkness could
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: easily pick her off. So what we're dealing with here
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: is called an atavistic impulse. And it's a wonderful world
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: because atavism or atavistic energy is pulling her back to
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: an earlier phase of evolution so that she can access
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: something that her modern psychology has broken her away from.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: So really, she wants to see into the dark and
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: some instinctive part of her knows, well, I've got to
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: regress back into my animal nature. If I had animal
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: fur and animal eyes like a cat or other creatures,
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: I could probably see. And it's kind of successful because
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: she gets that fuzz on the legs and then she
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: can see a bit of light.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 4: That's right. Exactly. And Jung is forever and ever and
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 4: ever talking about how we need to be in touch
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 4: with our instincts. of those base level feelings that the
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 4: fur symbolizes, that there is something inherent that is protective
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 4: and warming as she feels herself alone in the dark.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 4: But this doesn't quite work. Our dream maker says, oh,
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 4: now she's got this idea that I can make this happen.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 4: Then there's a place on my hand and I'm making
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 4: it happen because it's thick and liquid and I can
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 4: feel it coming. But uh-oh, she can't do it for
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 4: her back. Trying to will hair to spring up from
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 4: her back too hard to connect with that part of
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 4: the body. And she says, I needed that fur on
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 4: my back. So I think the dream is really picturing...
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: Some things that our dream ego can do and what
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 4: cannot be. She cannot grow fur all over her body.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: But she does have this transmutational capacity that her will
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: is really remarkable. That she can will herself to change
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: and create this. bubbly mutability on her skin which is
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: the precursor to a transforming into a pelt that's very
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: exciting for her to see that her pure will can
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: get her to acclimate to the complete darkness she finds
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: herself in but as you said at least by the
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: end of the dream we don't get the feeling she's
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: going to turn fully into a wolf or whatever it
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: is it's a bit of like a werewolf kind of
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: story except that She's not cursed. She's a shapeshifter. And
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: shapeshifters are part of, for instance, Native American mythology, or
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: they call them skinwalkers.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 4: Yep.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: That are shamans that can become animals and then return
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: to being human again. She's trying to figure out her
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: skinwalker energy, her mojo around that, and she's made progress.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: But it's not fast and it's not easy. But I
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: think more importantly, through the association, she has a trauma history. Yeah.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: And I think what the psyche is doing is it's
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: showing her how she survived her childhood problems, that she
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: was able to regress into an instinctive place. And any
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: of us with a trauma history recognize that when you've
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: got a dangerous parent in the house, your instincts are
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: very awake you are hearing for the footsteps like even
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: the cadence of the parental footsteps can tell you what's
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: going to happen you're trying to see the secret signals
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: so you can like a creature of the forest run
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: or fight or hide or the things that creatures do
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: i think the dream maker is telling her something about
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: her coping mechanisms and her defense and if she could
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: become clearer about them then she could ask herself, do
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: I still need this atrophistic defense in the world I
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: inhabit now? Or does it just break open suddenly and
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of growling like a great beast? But is
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: that called for just because the pizza delivery guy was
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: an hour late? Is that the right place to use it?
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 4: And I think the dream maker is also telling her,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 4: I agree with what you've said. that you do have
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 4: this power, but that's not what's needed now. Yeah.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: She's got a lovely, she has a spouse and children.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: It sounds like she's got a lovely life and a career. Right.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: She's able to tell her mom, listen, you know, let's
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: not do this. And, leaves her alone. If she wants
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: to hang out once or twice a year, okay. The
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: danger has passed. Can that be okay?
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 4: And I think, you know, as our dreamer already knows
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 4: very well, of the loss of the supportive family connection
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 4: with the feminine that her mother could not provide, but
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 4: the sister could. And the fear that she expresses of regressing,
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 4: that she's afraid she'll let somewhat unhealthy relationship resume with
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 4: the old friend, that she'll regress to that, or that
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 4: she'll let her mother back into her safe space. And
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 4: I like that the dream maker gives her a lot
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 4: of credit for being able to grow this fur and
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 4: then also say, look, You can't grow fur on your back.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: And it may not be necessary, actually, either. You really
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: just need your eyeballs to see in the dark.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 4: Exactly. Exactly. It's a poignant dream. And I'm wishing this
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 4: dreamer well. And, of course, these separations are hard. They
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 4: call up so much from the past. But that was then.
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 4: This is now.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 1: That's right. And it's understandable when we've been subjected to
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: really terrible things that we can learn how to growl
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: and bite and snarl and bare our teeth. Circumstances can
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: force us into that, much like the fairy tale analysis
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: person who survived the violence of her mother. But yes,
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: you can conjure it again if you need it, but
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: you probably don't need it too much. That's a nice
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: exhalation to grant yourself. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:11:30
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