Latest / Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori / 41. When and How to Work with a Publicist

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41. When and How to Work with a Publicist · Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori

• 0:07
  Welcome to Show.
• 0:07
  Don't Tell Writing with me, Suzy Vadori, where I teach you the tried and true secrets to writing fiction nonfiction that are gonna wow your readers broken down step by step.
• 0:18
  We're gonna explore writing techniques.
• 0:21
  I'm gonna show you a glimpse behind the scenes of successful writers' careers that you wouldn't have access to otherwise.
• 0:27
  And I'm also gonna coach writers live on their pages so that you can learn and transform your own storytelling.
• 0:33
  Whether you're just starting out, you're drafting your first book, you're editing, or you're currently rewriting that book, or maybe even your 10th book, this show's gonna help you unlock the writing skills that you didn't even know you needed, but you definitely do.
• 0:48
  I'm so looking forward to helping you get your amazing ideas from your mind onto your pages in an exciting way for both you and your readers, so that you can achieve your wildest writing dreams, and you're gonna also have some fun doing it.
• 1:02
  Let's dive in.
• 1:04
  All right.
• 1:05
  Welcome to the show, Mickey Mickelson.
• 1:09
  It's so good to have you here.
• 1:11
  Suzy, thank you so much for inviting me.
• 1:13
  It's been forever.
• 1:15
  You've been a huge advocate for me for so long, and, um, I'm just really thrilled to be here and chat with you.
• 1:21
  10 years Creative Edge, 10 years as a, as a company.
• 1:25
  Yeah.
• 1:25
  How does that feel?
• 1:26
  Congratulations.
• 1:28
  It was crazy because initially I was part-time working in corporate sector.
• 1:33
  Then the corporate sector reduced our roles.
• 1:35
  36 people.
• 1:36
  Me being one of them scary times.
• 1:38
  Even more like, do I do this?
• 1:41
  Do I go back into the corporate sector or do I do this and see what happens?
• 1:45
  Took a risk.
• 1:46
  20 20, 20 21, I think took a risk, had 36 authors at that time.
• 1:52
  Now we're over a hundred.
• 1:54
  We're representing like four small press publishers.
• 1:57
  I work with a award-winning social media guru out of Texas.
• 2:02
  It's been a trip and a destination and a journey, and you've been a part of all of it.
• 2:07
  So thank you all of it.
• 2:08
  I've been, I know I wasn't your very first client, but I have been there.
• 2:12
  It was.
• 2:12
  You're close off and on.
• 2:13
  Yeah, close.
• 2:14
  I mean, and I think the reason that you and I have sort of grown up together in this industry, because we did, we both had corporate and did this part-time and we had.
• 2:23
  A lot of conversations about what that would look like to jump and all those things.
• 2:28
  And yeah, it's been amazing to see your growth and to be a part of that story.
• 2:33
  So yeah.
• 2:34
  Thank you and, and thank you for the work that you do for writers because this is such a blind spot, or publicity is such a blind spot for many people.
• 2:44
  We think that we're gonna write a book and then that's it, and somehow it's going to be.
• 2:48
  Discovered and, and people are gonna get it and all the things, and it can be scary to promote their own work.
• 2:53
  So to have somebody like yourself and your team and your company in our corner saying, Hey, here's what works, here's what doesn't.
• 3:02
  Here's some stuff you can try and I'm gonna help you with.
• 3:05
  All of that is such an amazing service.
• 3:07
  Thank you.
• 3:08
  Oh, thank you as well.
• 3:09
  It's been a huge journey and you, you motivated me along this way.
• 3:14
  You, you, you pushed me out when I didn't think I could be pushed from, and there's, there's always something bigger, right?
• 3:23
  There's always something bigger.
• 3:24
  Yeah, for sure.
• 3:26
  I, I think we share, we share a real love of helping and survey.
• 3:31
  So mic, before we get rolling here, I just wanna hear from you because many of our listeners may have not worked with a publicist before, or if they've worked with publicists and didn't really understand it.
• 3:43
  What does it mean in your world to be a publicist?
• 3:46
  What?
• 3:46
  What is that?
• 3:47
  It's all about connection, right?
• 3:49
  It's all about having a vision.
• 3:51
  It's all about connection.
• 3:51
  It's all about finding a passion and then pivoting with every individual client that you work with.
• 3:57
  Writers are writers.
• 3:59
  It's true, and everyone writes in different genres.
• 4:02
  That's true as well.
• 4:03
  But everybody has different dynamics and what works for one writer from, um, ethical and maybe a logistic standpoint.
• 4:12
  May not work for that second writer.
• 4:14
  So do I have a number of opportunities every month that I send my team and they, I book them for that?
• 4:20
  Absolutely.
• 4:21
  But we're also pivoting and we're trying to find out different areas that will build up their branding within not only the genre they read, but also their author branding, which is ultimately the more important part of all of it.
• 4:35
  Yeah.
• 4:36
  So what do you do for them?
• 4:37
  You be, you basically make those connections and help them find opportunities to promote their books and their brand does.
• 4:44
  Is that kind of Yeah, so I set up interviews through traditional media, podcasts like yours, tv, radio, magazines, book reviews.
• 4:54
  Library events, book signing events, all of that send out press releases.
• 4:59
  But what I, I like to hit home and no one gets this.
• 5:02
  No one understands this from a traditional media sense.
• 5:06
  It's not always just about the book that you're writing at this time.
• 5:10
  The book is secondary.
• 5:13
  I'm being very successful 10 years doing this, focusing on the author branding of the individual.
• 5:20
  Because that individual's gonna write more than one book.
• 5:23
  They might even write different genres of books.
• 5:25
  I have clients who do that, but if you don't focus on the branding of the individual, all that other stuff gets wasted and, and then you can't pro promote down the road.
• 5:37
  Yeah.
• 5:37
  And I find.
• 5:38
  It might be rusty at first, but the more you talk about it and the more you do it and the more events you do and the more things you sign up for and put yourself out there, the better you get at speaking about yourself and your brand and what you stand for and, and why people should be attracted to your brand.
• 5:54
  And, and secondarily, your books, right?
• 5:57
  A hundred percent.
• 5:57
  I mean, ad campaigns, marketability ad campaigns, book book buzz campaigns, book launches, book things.
• 6:05
  That's meant to promote the book.
• 6:08
  Traditional media is meant to promote you.
• 6:11
  Yeah.
• 6:12
  So there's a lot of times when I have writers who are booked on tv, their book doesn't even come up until like very end.
• 6:20
  'cause they're talking about themselves.
• 6:21
  And that's really what the general public and and their potential fan base want to know.
• 6:27
  They want to know you as an individual and if they like you as an individual, there's a really good chance they're gonna like your book as well.
• 6:34
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 6:35
  So, so on that thread, Mickey, can going on a podcast help you sell books?
• 6:40
  It can, but everyone seems to think that the media or is a, is a driver of sales and it's not like that.
• 6:50
  This is gonna be a negative comment, Susie, but I say this all the time to my, in my client meetings, publicity by itself can be deemed as the lost leader.
• 6:59
  Going on a multiple mainstream show, even like someone as big as Good Morning America, you may not sell a ton of books doing that.
• 7:07
  What you are gonna get is some key exposure that you can drive your targets to and your business to.
• 7:13
  And so when you send out your social media links or you send out an ad campaign around your book, everything else that you're doing encompasses that.
• 7:20
  So publicity by itself typically, historically, will not sell a ton of bucks.
• 7:26
  However, if you don't do that stuff, everything else you're doing will get wasted and you're not gonna get known from a, an author standpoint.
• 7:34
  Yeah, and that's why I wanted to ask, ask the question.
• 7:36
  I mean, I knew the answer, but I wanted to ask the question because a lot of times people think that this is about book sales and so they sign up and they do a few things and then they don't see it.
• 7:45
  I find that even those pieces don't necessarily find me readers in that audience, but I'm the one who amplifies it.
• 7:54
  You know, if I were to be on Good Morning America, let's put that on my list of Yes, please.
• 7:58
  I'm Mickey in the future, right?
• 8:00
  Let's do it.
• 8:01
  I always think later.
• 8:02
  No problem.
• 8:03
  So I tell everybody, everybody, I always ask for huge things for Mickey and usually, eventually they get delivered.
• 8:09
  So maybe, maybe that's the goal and then probably not.
• 8:11
  You know, I'm gonna have to put things in place.
• 8:14
  But it's about the writer also.
• 8:16
  Then amplifying that and sharing that and putting that Good Morning America sticker.
• 8:21
  As seen in, as seen on, you know, like amplifying that over the years and that's what works.
• 8:28
  I'll tell a quick story, Mickey, and you haven't heard this one.
• 8:32
  So he's, I wish you guys could see his face.
• 8:34
  'cause there's no, there's no video actually on this podcast, but he is like, what are you going to tell?
• 8:39
  So last year I, I was in a community group and in my community where I live and in person and I was speaking to these people, you know, day in, day out, and they had no idea what I did.
• 8:52
  One day, this woman that I was talking to all the time said to me, what do you do?
• 8:58
  And I told her that I was a writer, and I gave her my, she said, what's your last name?
• 9:04
  And I gave her my last name.
• 9:05
  And she almost, well, she, she teared up and she said, I had no idea that she said, were you on the radio like three years ago talking about your books?
• 9:18
  And I said, probably.
• 9:21
  Well, yes, but I was on the radio quite often.
• 9:24
  Right?
• 9:24
  And so she said.
• 9:26
  I had no idea that the woman that I was becoming friends with, all of this was the woman that inspired me to write.
• 9:33
  Wow.
• 9:33
  Three, three or four years later.
• 9:36
  You don't know.
• 9:37
  You don't know what's happening.
• 9:39
  And she ended up working with me because she'd written a book and then hired me to edit.
• 9:43
  You don't know where this is gonna come back.
• 9:46
  You just keep putting it out into the universe.
• 9:48
  And yeah, I mean, she didn't call me right away.
• 9:50
  She didn't remember she remembered my name, but when I met her I was just Susie.
• 9:54
  And so she didn't like sort of put the dots together until I actually said, I'm a writer.
• 10:00
  And she said, what's your last name?
• 10:01
  And I said, Susie Vadori.
• 10:02
  And she was like, oh my gosh.
• 10:04
  And it was really a cool moment.
• 10:05
  Like it was like you're famous in certain rooms because of that, and it takes three or four or seven touchpoint before somebody actually.
• 10:17
  We'll buy your books.
• 10:18
  And so the more you're out there, and the more that you do that, you don't know where it's going to lead.
• 10:22
  But if you're putting that positivity and you're putting yourself out into the world, you're gonna make connections.
• 10:26
  And over time those connections will build.
• 10:28
  You haven't heard that story.
• 10:30
  Does that surprise you?
• 10:32
  It doesn't sur Well, it does kind of.
• 10:34
  I mean, three years later, that's mind blowing.
• 10:36
  But it just shows the power of, of what you do and how you do it.
• 10:42
  If you're positive engagement on a me medium, like even a podcast, and it's a small podcast, as long as you have positive engagement, you will have influence in some way, shape, or form, either where that shows listener base or down the road with your own base, and you just prove that that story proves that.
• 11:00
  What I like to tell writers too, I mean, yes, it's about selling books, but it's also like you don't know where this writing a book is going to lead.
• 11:09
  It may sell thousands of books, or it may not, but it may open doors that you haven't even thought of yet, right?
• 11:15
  Like that's something I say all the time.
• 11:17
  You don't know.
• 11:17
  I mean, if you look at like, I, I say this all the time, but Mickey, you've been along for the ride.
• 11:24
  Did you think a decade ago when we started working together on my little series, that I would be doing this full time and working with writers?
• 11:33
  Yeah.
• 11:33
  No.
• 11:34
  Right?
• 11:34
  No.
• 11:35
  I mean, even in my case, Susie, I mean, when we started working together, I, I, I had a good conversation with you and I, I said, you know, I'm working with a lot of self-published indie writers.
• 11:45
  I don't think I'll ever work with a USA today bestseller or a mult or a New York Times.
• 11:51
  Yeah, I have two USAP best seller right now, and I represent three New York Times bestsellers.
• 11:58
  Yeah.
• 11:58
  And that's crazy.
• 12:00
  Like it, it just my, it blows my mind that that happened.
• 12:03
  But you said it was gonna happen and I didn't believe you.
• 12:06
  Well, because what you're providing is so different from what anybody else does.
• 12:12
  Right.
• 12:13
  And you do work with smaller writers.
• 12:15
  I mean, I'm with a small press.
• 12:16
  And you do work with those writers and you do work within our parameters and, and really understand the space.
• 12:23
  And nobody else is doing that.
• 12:25
  Nobody else is still doing that a decade later, I don't think.
• 12:28
  Well, thanks, I appreciate that.
• 12:29
  But no, it's just, it's just wild how sure where journeys take you, right?
• 12:34
  Well, you just, you know, you put yourself out there and you do what you're good at and good things will come.
• 12:38
  Right.
• 12:39
  And I, I truly believe that it happened for me, it happened for you.
• 12:42
  This is a great segue to my next question.
• 12:44
  What types of writers would benefit from working with a PR agency like Creative Edge, which is your company?
• 12:53
  I think, and I'm biased, but thank you for the question.
• 12:57
  I think any writer would benefit working with a PR firm like myself, provided they're open to listening to the advice given and are willing to do the work that goes along with that.
• 13:14
  A lot of writers who tend to think, I'm gonna hire this publicist, he's gonna wave a magic wand, and I can just concentrate on writing and not do anything.
• 13:23
  Well, it doesn't work that way.
• 13:25
  First and foremost, number number one, if you work with a publicist, your workload doesn't decrease.
• 13:32
  It increases.
• 13:34
  We're setting up magazine spots, writing interviews.
• 13:38
  Podcast interviews, TV and radio interviews, and you've gotta be at these places because the minute you start no showing or you can't give your all on a show, it's gonna hurt my reputation.
• 13:51
  It's gonna hurt your reputation.
• 13:53
  And not only that, it's gonna hurt the other a hundred plus clients reputations that I work with because we're a complete brand.
• 13:59
  That's the first point.
• 14:00
  And, and secondly, if an author is not a hundred percent dedicated to having professional branding or professional look, then there's no point in working with a publicist because you're not gonna wanna work with that individual first and foremost.
• 14:15
  And thirdly, if they're not gonna take the advice that that publicist is giving, again, that's gonna be a bad mix of, of conflict down the road.
• 14:24
  Yeah, no, absolutely.
• 14:25
  And, and the.
• 14:26
  There is a lot of work involved.
• 14:28
  It.
• 14:28
  It isn't just overnight and it isn't the PR agency that's going to do the work for you.
• 14:33
  And I will also caution writers out there who are listening.
• 14:37
  If you work with Creative Edge, you will get booked.
• 14:41
  You will.
• 14:42
  It's not like there's, there's a lot of PR agencies out there that will ask for a retainer and then you may not hear back from, from anything, and you're paying it, but you don't get booked.
• 14:51
  And Mickey smirking.
• 14:52
  Yes.
• 14:53
  No.
• 14:53
  You will have opportunities and you will have to do them.
• 14:56
  And so don't work with them and you're ready to go because there will be a lot of things to do and it's exciting and it can be overwhelming.
• 15:03
  You can control that though, Ricky, right?
• 15:05
  Mickey?
• 15:05
  Like.
• 15:06
  You're not gonna say you have to do these hundred things.
• 15:09
  No.
• 15:09
  Um, the writer gets to control exactly what they say yes to.
• 15:13
  Correct.
• 15:14
  Absolutely.
• 15:15
  But if it makes business sense, I will push to do that show.
• 15:18
  And on the other side of it, I mean, I had a conversation with an author this morning.
• 15:21
  An author's gonna go on pause for a month because they're feeling overwhelmed about stuff.
• 15:26
  And they're like, can we just pause or is it a make or break?
• 15:29
  I'm like, no, we can pause just as long as we're targeting when your book comes back out.
• 15:35
  But it's important to energize and yeah, do I get people stuff?
• 15:40
  I do get people stuff.
• 15:41
  I, I have relationships from that aspect.
• 15:44
  And the reason I have those relationships is because the authors I work with are professional in nature and they do the things that are asked of them, and they do them in a really, really positive.
• 15:55
  Enlightening manner.
• 15:57
  Any creative edge author that I book for a show, the expectations are that they fit a perfect, a set parameter and they interview the way that it seemed to be positive.
• 16:09
  If we don't have that, then we don't have branding, and then ultimately we wouldn't be here 10 years later.
• 16:14
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 16:15
  So what kinds of writers do you see making the most of the publicity that you set up for them?
• 16:20
  What kind of experience do you need to have?
• 16:22
  Like if, if I've never, I mean, I came into working with Creative Edge, having been a public speaker, which is a huge advantage.
• 16:29
  Many people don't.
• 16:30
  So what types of writers or what skillset do you hope that writers already have?
• 16:36
  If I'm like, Ooh, I'm not really comfortable going on podcasts.
• 16:40
  Are there alternatives?
• 16:41
  Of course, so anybody who's a shy introvert, and there's a lot of them out there, we will do written interviews and we'll do guest posts and magazines and we'll do things like that and blogs and such to get them comfortable first and foremost with that piece.
• 16:57
  And then we'll start booking them with smaller related podcasts with smaller views.
• 17:03
  And that's how we segue into that Now, that's the first aspect.
• 17:08
  The second aspect are the.
• 17:10
  The seasoned pros, per se, who are still indie, but are like, well, what's the reach of the show?
• 17:17
  Or Why am I trying to do this?
• 17:20
  And, and I go to them and I say, well, why does that matter?
• 17:24
  Because it's really not up to the show to build up your branding.
• 17:28
  They're giving you the advantage and the opportunity to talk an outlet about your books for 15 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour or four hours or whatever.
• 17:37
  For that time, you get to build up your branding and talk about what you want to talk about for that time.
• 17:44
  It's not to show, to build up your stature in that aspect.
• 17:47
  It's up to you to build up that opportunity.
• 17:50
  So even a podcast gets a hundred views, but you have a high social media reach.
• 17:57
  It's gonna be above and beyond what anybody else is gonna have because you're gonna be able to share that out to the world.
• 18:03
  Yeah, exactly, and that's what I was saying earlier.
• 18:05
  It's not necessarily that you're gonna find readers on that podcast.
• 18:11
  Audience.
• 18:12
  You, you will.
• 18:12
  I mean, you might, but, but it's also that you can show your readers that in your community that you're doing stuff, that you're out there, that you're, and it's content that you can share some of the most shocking things too.
• 18:25
  And again, Mickey, you know, a lot of this is, I. Things that we've worked on over the years together, but if you Google, I'm, I've been shocked.
• 18:32
  People tell me now that they find me on chat, GPT tell me who the best book coach is to work with in my genre.
• 18:38
  The reason that I pop up for them is because there's so much out there.
• 18:42
  And it doesn't really matter.
• 18:44
  I mean, whether it's a small podcast, a large podcast, I mean, it does matter, but it's the volume and the fact that I do this podcast and that's out there and everything.
• 18:52
  I mean, if you're showing that you're relevant and you're doing things on a regular basis, all of a sudden the search engines take notice.
• 19:00
  And so when people are looking for, hey.
• 19:01
  Best book in this genre or best indie writer or USA today writer or whatever level you're at, doesn't matter if they're looking for it and you've got fresh content, they're gonna find you more.
• 19:14
  This all goes into your internet presence.
• 19:16
  It all goes into the search engine.
• 19:19
  Exactly.
• 19:19
  And for your audience, which I'm understanding are, are the newer writers, they're gonna be taking advice from all kinds of areas'cause they wanna learn and grow and.
• 19:28
  Yeah, it's key to be able to filter out what the bad advice is and what the really good advice is.
• 19:34
  One of the main advices that's out there is, well, you only wanna do like major stuff.
• 19:39
  You only want to go on major tv, or you only want to go on local tv, or you only want to go on a mainstream podcast.
• 19:46
  Sure.
• 19:46
  Who wouldn't want that?
• 19:48
  But the problem is, is that everybody and their dog are pitching those places, and those outlets are gonna be very, very specific about what they're looking for.
• 19:56
  And if you don't fit the mold and you don't do anything but those places, then you got nothing.
• 20:01
  And even, I mean, if you've, if you've gone on smaller ones and you've sort of honed your messaging, and the bigger ones were interested in your pitch, and they go out there and they're like, well, what's this?
• 20:11
  What else has this person done?
• 20:13
  If you've been working on your craft and you can nail an interview because you've done those steps and done the smaller and then the medium size and all these things when you hit or when you pitch and they look you up and they find something that's credible and professional and all those things, you know it's gonna make their decision much easier.
• 20:31
  Then if they go on there and they find you've done nothing because you're waiting for them.
• 20:35
  Exactly.
• 20:35
  A hundred percent.
• 20:36
  So these are some of the things that the newer writers need to look at, for sure.
• 20:41
  Yeah.
• 20:41
  So what do you advise writers to do before even approaching Creative Edge and saying, Hey, I think I'm ready for publicity, or I have a book coming out.
• 20:49
  What could they do to prepare?
• 20:51
  They need to understand the timelines of what a launch looks like.
• 20:55
  They need to understand the timelines of when a publicist needs a book.
• 21:01
  I've had writers who are writing a book and they're releasing a book in two weeks, and they contact me and they're like, my book's up in two weeks.
• 21:08
  Can we work together?
• 21:09
  I'm like, no, because I need at least guidelines, per se, three months if you want to do it right.
• 21:19
  Editorial reviewers will not look at your book.
• 21:21
  If you're releasing it in two weeks, forget it.
• 21:23
  Yeah, it's not gonna happen.
• 21:24
  But if I have, the more time I have, the better it is.
• 21:27
  In addition to that, if the book that they're writing hasn't been professionally edited, if it has a handmade book cover, instead of it being paid for, for a professional looking book cover, if they're headshot is a selfie off a cell phone, and there's a lot of background clutter in the back room, they're not ready for a publicist.
• 21:50
  These are all things that need to be toned and honed down in order to have success.
• 21:56
  And I meet with writers like that all the time, Susie, and you know how I, how I am.
• 22:00
  I tell them, you need to change this, this, and this.
• 22:04
  When you do that, I. Come back and see me and we can have a discussion.
• 22:07
  But until, yeah, I, I usually, when I send people to you and I send people to you all the time, I do give them that disclaimer saying, Hey, Mickey's gonna tell you like it is, and it might be really uncomfortable.
• 22:17
  And just know that he's the real thing, he's the good stuff.
• 22:21
  And don't get discouraged.
• 22:22
  It's not a rejection of you.
• 22:24
  He's like trying to help, but you're also really busy, right?
• 22:28
  So, so yeah, I, I believe you tell it like it is.
• 22:31
  I I do hear that.
• 22:32
  Well, I mean, it's a relationship, right?
• 22:33
  So they might as well know what I'm like right off the bat.
• 22:36
  But you also know me, I will fight to the nails from my clients.
• 22:39
  Like I will, I will advocate for them in areas that people are blown away by.
• 22:45
  Like really?
• 22:46
  I'm like, yeah, I get up at four in the morning, I work until midnight, and it's all about the books, and that's what I do.
• 22:53
  Mickey has literally driven seven hours there and seven hours home to be back with his family because he wanted to show up for me for an event.
• 23:02
  You've done that for me, and I know that you do that for a lot of people.
• 23:05
  Okay, so we have a lot of listeners who are just starting out, and we also have listeners who've published already.
• 23:10
  So we're talking about, okay, three, four months, we need the runway to launch a book.
• 23:16
  What if I missed that?
• 23:17
  What if I went ahead and published and I was like, oh my gosh, I didn't even know this was available to me.
• 23:22
  Am I screwed?
• 23:23
  Am I done?
• 23:23
  Can I never, you know, do any publicity.
• 23:26
  No, of course not.
• 23:28
  I mean, there's rules are always made to be broken and I break them all the time.
• 23:32
  I mean, there's a lot of publicists, especially within in the house, big 4, 3, 4 months.
• 23:38
  That's all you can do.
• 23:39
  That's it.
• 23:39
  You're done.
• 23:40
  I got a writer on a magazine cover story.
• 23:44
  A year and a half ago on a book that was published in like 2020.
• 23:49
  So do the math like I did that.
• 23:52
  Do I have relationships where I can pitch and podcasts and get people on where they're just releasing their book?
• 23:58
  Sure.
• 23:59
  The three month window is to have more chance for success.
• 24:04
  I'm not gonna be able to get a Publisher's Weekly review for that individual unless we're paying for it and it's expensive.
• 24:09
  I won't be able to get a forward review for.
• 24:12
  Because of the short window and it's expensive.
• 24:15
  But there are things that we can do and there are things that I do do.
• 24:17
  In the last two years, we've had nine indies become international best sellers through our efforts.
• 24:24
  And, and some of those books were on short time windows.
• 24:28
  So it can happen.
• 24:30
  It's just, it's not as much fun and it's a lot harder.
• 24:33
  So should, should people be looking at their publicity throughout, not just when they're launching, or, or what do you think?
• 24:40
  We're as successful as promoting our backlist as we are promoting our new books.
• 24:45
  And in some cases we actually use the backlist to pivot to the next book.
• 24:51
  And that's a really good platform that we've been using a across the board, right.
• 24:55
  So, yeah.
• 24:57
  Awesome.
• 24:58
  And that's been my experience too.
• 24:59
  I mean, it hasn't mattered that my books aren't fresh and new.
• 25:03
  It, it doesn't matter because you, you could still be on things.
• 25:07
  And so if you miss that window, yes, it's best to be in that window to have lots of time.
• 25:12
  And when I've given you lots of time, I think the last time I launched a book in 2020, Mickey had me get a full page.
• 25:21
  It was a full page article in the Calgary Herald that was picked up across the country.
• 25:26
  So, yeah.
• 25:27
  And people are like, wow, you had a full page arm?
• 25:30
  I'm like, yeah, that's what my publicist does.
• 25:32
  Right.
• 25:33
  And not that he is gonna do that all the time or for everything, but we had a lot, you know, it's a, it was a cool story.
• 25:38
  We had a lot, he's got the relationships.
• 25:41
  We had a lot of momentum going into that.
• 25:43
  And so, and we had a lot of lead time and, well, I wanna make more point if I can, if the books, the backlist books haven't been actively promoted as well the first time around.
• 25:53
  It's a lot easier to get traction'cause no media has seen it yet.
• 25:57
  Yeah.
• 25:57
  And that's something else that we're able to do with that, so.
• 26:01
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 26:02
  Absolutely.
• 26:03
  Okay, so Mickey is doing publicity.
• 26:06
  Is it about, do I have to dance on social media?
• 26:09
  You need to have an active following list for social media for sure.
• 26:13
  You need to have a website.
• 26:16
  You need to have followers for your social media, or if you have a PA doing it for you, great.
• 26:22
  But social media is gonna be key to your success because some of these podcasts, the reach is smaller.
• 26:28
  I do that purposely because they're attracting certain genre of fan or certain genre of reader base.
• 26:34
  And they put on really, really good interviews.
• 26:37
  So the interviews look professionally, look stellar, but the reach levels aren't there in some cases.
• 26:43
  So it's really important for the writers to be able to share those links out.
• 26:47
  I've had lots of writers who we have conversations and they're like, well, Mickey, we did this, and then this and this.
• 26:54
  I didn't gain anything out of it.
• 26:55
  I'm like, okay, did you share the links?
• 26:58
  Well, no.
• 26:59
  I'm like, well, what do you expect then if you don't share the links?
• 27:03
  How are people gonna see that you've done these things?
• 27:05
  So it's really, really important to, to focus on the social media piece and maybe get some sound advice around that, because not absolutely.
• 27:13
  Your vehicle's not gonna work for every book, right.
• 27:16
  And that's what I was saying all the way through.
• 27:18
  It's not necessarily about the reach of the podcast that you are on or the reach of the publication or the magazine or whatever that bit of PR is that you've earned.
• 27:27
  It's really about how can you amplify it and how can you use it and how can it, you know, how can the back links on your website actually help people find you?
• 27:35
  All of those things are important.
• 27:37
  Exactly.
• 27:38
  Absolutely.
• 27:39
  So you've been doing this a long time.
• 27:42
  Yay.
• 27:42
  A decade.
• 27:43
  Yeah.
• 27:43
  Well, that's a long time in this industry.
• 27:46
  So can you share a story or two of somebody who came to you and worked on PR and reached their writing dreams like, like what does that look like?
• 27:58
  I don't know if it's reaching their writing dreams, but there is one, well, at least one that I'm really, really proud of.
• 28:06
  'cause I, I represent New York Times bestseller Toska Lee and I booked her for a small podcast which had limited views and Toska being toska 'cause she, she'll do anything I ask pretty much.
• 28:18
  She's wonderful that way.
• 28:19
  She went on this show and it just so happens that someone else had looked up her show.
• 28:27
  And she heads the Beautiful Writers Podcast and they only book 10 people per year.
• 28:34
  And they're all mainstream people.
• 28:36
  Like mainstream people, Lee Child, Dean Kunz, people like that.
• 28:41
  Well, they interviewed Toska because of how professional she was on this small podcast and just Toska being wonderful.
• 28:48
  She was co build with Tom Hanks on her episode.
• 28:52
  And, and this was, wow.
• 28:54
  And this was pre Covid.
• 28:55
  So her, the, the, the organizers of the Bureau Writers Podcast had made a deal with American Airlines in the States to broadcast all of their podcasts on all the flights for this company.
• 29:08
  So Toska Toska interview was broadcast across virtually every American airline flight in the United States for that first year before Covid happened.
• 29:19
  Now if Toska had not gone on that small show after and I had reached out and they'd never seen her, that opportunity never have happened.
• 29:26
  But because it happened, she went on that show.
• 29:30
  So that's, that's one story that we've done.
• 29:33
  That's amazing.
• 29:33
  And Toska has been with you the full decade, uh, 2017, so yeah.
• 29:38
  Well almost yeah.
• 29:40
  A long time.
• 29:41
  Yeah, a long time.
• 29:42
  I've got a couple of quick fire quickfire answers for you.
• 29:46
  Round numbers nobody's gonna fact check.
• 29:48
  Approximately how many writers do you think you've helped in the decade?
• 29:52
  Uh, 10, a hundred thousand in, in a decade.
• 29:56
  In a decade.
• 29:58
  Talking decades probably.
• 30:01
  At least 300.
• 30:03
  At least 300.
• 30:05
  That's a lot.
• 30:05
  And how many different connections or relationships, podcasts, whatever do you think that you've made in a decade?
• 30:13
  Probably 500 to 600.
• 30:15
  And at least 50 of those have interviewed over 300 interviews in the last 10 years.
• 30:21
  Wow.
• 30:22
  Yeah.
• 30:22
  Okay.
• 30:23
  Mickey, what's your best advice for writers starting out?
• 30:27
  What's your best advice, whether it's about PR or not about pr?
• 30:30
  What's your best advice?
• 30:33
  Know what you want to do.
• 30:34
  Have a vision to do it.
• 30:36
  Don't give up when things don't work out initially, and increase your branding to always look professional in everything you do.
• 30:47
  Amazing.
• 30:48
  Amazing.
• 30:48
  I love that.
• 30:49
  And you are like walking that walk and talking that talk all the way.
• 30:54
  I love that.
• 30:55
  Tell us a little bit about Creative Edge, the agency, how people can work with you and where people can find you.
• 31:01
  So my website's www dot creative edge dash services.
• 31:06
  We've been doing this for 10 years.
• 31:08
  We started out with one indie author who I worked with in the corporate sector, Miranda O.
• 31:13
  She actually started this whole journey and told me I should just do it with her, and I did.
• 31:19
  And then the Calgary sector, there were so many authors who I started out with who just let me work with their brands, and I don't work with a lot of them now, but I mean, honestly, and I'm gonna say this.
• 31:33
  Don't edit this out.
• 31:34
  Susie, please.
• 31:36
  I, well, this is public.
• 31:37
  You're on my podcast.
• 31:38
  That's awesome.
• 31:40
  I wanna thank everybody in Calgary who took a risk.
• 31:45
  Let me work with them and just let me build my brand and my craft and figure this out, because there was lots of hoops and there are lots of mistakes made.
• 31:56
  The people I work with now got the benefit of allowing me to make those mistakes with, with those individuals.
• 32:02
  So I want to thank all of them.
• 32:05
  I privileged to have been part of that initial crew and you know, nobody was doing this.
• 32:11
  So what you were doing was so helpful, Nikki, and is still so helpful.
• 32:14
  And I know that it's evolved over a decade.
• 32:17
  It's hard when you're creating a business that nobody else is doing.
• 32:20
  I mean, I'm doing it too.
• 32:21
  I. You've gotta figure it out, and you've gotta figure out what works for you and what works for your clients.
• 32:25
  And, and yeah, is it worth it?
• 32:27
  And all that stuff.
• 32:28
  It's, it's not easy being an entrepreneur.
• 32:30
  And I, I thank you for sticking with it, and I just so excited to see how you've blossomed over the last decade.
• 32:35
  Oh, thank you.
• 32:36
  No, it's good.
• 32:36
  All right.
• 32:36
  So we will put all those links in there.
• 32:39
  So if you are thinking about publicity and you've got a book coming out, hopefully it's more than three or four months away.
• 32:46
  Definitely start working, start thinking about it.
• 32:49
  Maybe book a call to talk to Mickey about what, what could happen for you.
• 32:53
  I promise you it's gonna be worth it because your book will get found if you are out there talking about it.
• 33:00
  Thanks for coming on the show today, Mickey.
• 33:01
  Thanks, Susan.
• 33:02
  Nice seeing you.
• 33:03
  Thanks everybody.
• 33:04
  You too.
• 33:12
  Thanks for tuning in to show.
• 33:13
  No.
• 33:13
  Tell Writing With me, Suzy Vadori.
• 33:15
  Help me continue to bring you the straight goods for that book you're writing or planning to write.
• 33:20
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• 33:27
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• 33:42
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• 33:45
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• 33:50
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• 33:51
  Remember that book and your writing is going to open doors that you haven't even thought of yet, and I can't wait to help Make it the absolute best.
• 34:02
  You're feeling called to write that book.
• 34:04
  Keep going and I'm gonna be right here cheering you on.
• 34:07
  See you again next week.