Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / The Innovation of Gene Krupa and His Impact on Rock Drumming [Episode 272]

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The Innovation of Gene Krupa and His Impact on Rock Drumming [Episode 272] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This episode of Book Don Rock the story of Gene Crouper,
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: the legendary jazz drummer who's inspired several legendary classic rock drummers,
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: including Keith Moon, John Bonham, Ringo Star, and many more.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: That's next. We're totally rock and roll.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: I mean gotta leave you. You're reading Little Hands says
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: it's time.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: To rock and roll. Roll up, I totally booked. Welcome
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: back to Book Don Rock and Eric Senich very excited
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: to talk to this episode's guest, Elizabeth Rosenthal. She's the
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: author of the brand new book on Gene Croupa. It's
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: titled The Master of Drums, Gene Crouper and the Music
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: He gave the world. Liz, so great to talk to you.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you very much. I'm so glad to be here.
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  Speaker 1: It's amazing how many classic rock drummers Gene Croupa influence,
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  Speaker 1: Like we're talking John Bonham, Ringo Star, Neil Peart of Rush,
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  Speaker 1: Peter Chris Slim, Jim Phantom of the Stray Cats, who
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: wrote back forward to the book, what is it about
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Gene Krupa that really in particular connected so much with
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  Speaker 1: rock and roll drummers?
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  Speaker 2: I think really in a way he was like the
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  Speaker 2: first rock and roll drummer. I mean, he would never
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: ever call himself a rock drummer because the strange thing
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: is that he didn't like rock music. Now, he liked
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  Speaker 2: rock drummers because he loves to talk to them and
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  Speaker 2: you know, talk shock with them and give them pointers
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  Speaker 2: or just you know, share ideas. But in terms of
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  Speaker 2: rock music, he didn't like it. But I think he
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: realized that he was influencing the music, just in terms
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: of the beat, a heavy beat. But I think how
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: this happened a lot of the classic rock drummers would
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: have seen. In fact, they did see the Gene Croupas story,
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: that biopic that came out in late nineteen fifty nine.
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  Speaker 2: And even though the music movie itself wasn't all that accurate,
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  Speaker 2: the music was, and in fact, Gene Krupa himself played
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: or recorded everything that's on there. So it stars at
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: this young actor named Salminio, but Gene Crupa actually played
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  Speaker 2: everything that you hear. That in itself, it can be
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: quite a revelation to anyone who's interested in drummers or
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: likes music. So you have somebody like Keith Moon, who
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: was totally blown away by Gene Croupa's music in that movie,
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  Speaker 2: and so that's when he decided to become a drummer.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: Isn't that something? I mean, you wouldn't really have had
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: The Who without Keith Moon. But if you look so
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: many of these rock drummers, it was almost like even
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: if they didn't know who Genkrupa was, although most of
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: them did, there was really a direct line of development
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: between Jane's drumming in the thirties and forties and beyond
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: and rock drummers. A lot of them were what you
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: would call a baby boomer. They grew up in the fifties.
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  Speaker 2: Their parents played Gene Croupa records, I know that for effect,
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  Speaker 2: and they were mesmerized and it was like a revelation
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: to so many of them. And I'm talking about even
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  Speaker 2: the drummer who drummed done Rock around the Clock by
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  Speaker 2: Bill Haley and the Comets. Can you imagine that? And
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  Speaker 2: so many of the early rock drummers, as well as
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  Speaker 2: drummers who came along in the sixties and seventies. You
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: mentioned Peter Chris. There are so many classic rock bands.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, even a Mountain, for example, they performed Mississippi Queen.
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  Speaker 2: And that was Corky Lang who played drums on that,
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  Speaker 2: the first drummer for Crosby, Sills and Nash. It's almost
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: like you named the group, and that drummer was really,
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: in all likelihood influence and in fact really admiring of
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Gene Frupa.
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  Speaker 1: I also would think it also has to do it
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  Speaker 1: especially with Keith Moon. His athletic physicality, the way he
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: performed on the drums stood out made him the star.
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  Speaker 1: And so that I can see also, you know, that's
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  Speaker 1: what rock and roll is. It's loud, it's boisterous, it's
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  Speaker 1: creating a lot of energy. It's not just sitting behind
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  Speaker 1: the kit and keeping a bait, ye know. And he's
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  Speaker 1: a good looking guy, that's the other thing, right right.
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  Speaker 2: And you know, he was under a lot of criticism
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  Speaker 2: back when he was a young guy for doing just
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  Speaker 2: what you're talking about, but it became natural to him.
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  Speaker 2: He wasn't actually emulating anybody in particular when he did it,
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  Speaker 2: you know, whether you're just talking about his athletic moves
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  Speaker 2: or the expressions on his face or how he even
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  Speaker 2: moved his head. It all came to him naturally because
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  Speaker 2: he was actually living every beat as he played it.
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  Speaker 2: And this is not really something that most people in jazz,
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  Speaker 2: which was what his background was, really liked. In fact,
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  Speaker 2: most of them thought that the drummer should be really
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  Speaker 2: not paid attention to and not make too much of
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  Speaker 2: a spectacle out of himself. But that changed. He's the
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  Speaker 2: one who actually brought drummers out to the forefront of
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  Speaker 2: a band in the sense they could become stars. He
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  Speaker 2: was the first drum star and others, whether it was
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  Speaker 2: jazz or later rock, could become stars in their own right.
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  Speaker 2: If it hadn't been for him, that would not have happened.
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  Speaker 1: Did he and Buddy Rich come along at the same.
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  Speaker 2: Time, No, not really. Buddy Rich was eight years younger,
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  Speaker 2: and Gene Crupo was already a seasoned drummer by the
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: nineteen twenties, a jazz drummer, and he came from Chicago
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  Speaker 2: and moved to New York. Became actually a very sought
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  Speaker 2: after drummer for anybody who needed him, anybody who was
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  Speaker 2: looking for a drummer. He was the one who was
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: most recommended and most in demand. So he was actually
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: well known before he joined Benny Goodman. His first you know,
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: the first band that where he became well known. Anyway,
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  Speaker 2: the point I'm making is he was a star and
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  Speaker 2: already influencing music and jazz before Buddy Rich even joined
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  Speaker 2: his first swing or jazz group. And in fact, Buddy
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  Speaker 2: Rich profoundly influenced by Gene Krupa really anything that you
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: hear him play, and he is admitted he had admitted
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  Speaker 2: this really as it's a source in Gene Krupa playing
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: and I'm talking stylistically, and no question that. Buddy Rich
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  Speaker 2: was also very impressed by Jean and they became really
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: great friends. You may or may not know that.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that.
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah. And then so they had a mutual admiration
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  Speaker 2: society going.
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  Speaker 1: On, booked on rock podcasts. We'll be back after this.
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  Speaker 2: I think you'd be glad later if you weren't here now.
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  Speaker 1: He was very athletic, as I mentioned he was. Actually
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: his passion was baseball. Gen Krupa. I talk about his
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: childhood in Chicago and what was it that changed his
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: mind and said, you know what, I love baseball, but
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  Speaker 1: drumming this is what I want to do. There was
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  Speaker 1: a moment there he was working at a music store
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  Speaker 1: with his brother.
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  Speaker 2: I think, yes, he was right. He was a kind
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  Speaker 2: of a gopher. He was about eleven years old ago
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  Speaker 2: for in a music store and he was looking through
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: a catalog. He thought, well, I'd like to play musical instrument,
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  Speaker 2: but what can I play? And he was looking through
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  Speaker 2: a catalog and the cheapest musical instrument was a drum
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  Speaker 2: set and this happened to be from Japan, and so
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  Speaker 2: it was easiest thing to buy because it was so
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: inexpensive relatively speaking. And his brother actually got it for him,
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: and so then the rest is history, and he became
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  Speaker 2: incredibly devoted to it. It just became a passion with
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  Speaker 2: him and something that he could never let go of.
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  Speaker 1: And he had tremendous drive. Right even when he was
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: considered the best drummer around, he was still trying to
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  Speaker 1: get better, which is so amazing. Stories of him playing
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: night and day working on his skills. Talk about how
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  Speaker 1: we started taking lessons from Sandford Gus Mohler first, for
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: those who were not familiar with him, who was Sandford Mohler?
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  Speaker 1: And can you talk about Gene kept his real name
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  Speaker 1: from Sandford in the beginning when he first taught him,
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  Speaker 1: Talk about why he did that.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, that's funny. Genekru. So initially he was not a
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: school drummer initially, and he finally realized this is not
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  Speaker 2: going to work.
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  Speaker 1: You know.
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  Speaker 2: He was actually the pit orchestra drummer for two George
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  Speaker 2: Gershwin musicals in the year nineteen thirty, Girl Crazy and
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  Speaker 2: Strike Up the Band. But Jane realized that he couldn't
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  Speaker 2: read music, so he didn't know when he was supposed
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  Speaker 2: to come in on the drums, and so he said, I,
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  Speaker 2: you know, this is embarrassing. I can't just let this happen.
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  Speaker 2: I want to know everything about the drums. So then yes,
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  Speaker 2: he approached Gus Maller and did not tell him his
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  Speaker 2: real name, because if he had, Gus Muller would have
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  Speaker 2: heard of him because he was already such a big
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  Speaker 2: name circulating around the New York jazz and music circles.
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  Speaker 2: So I don't know what name that Gene gave him.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know who he said he was. But if
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  Speaker 2: he hadn't done that, then Gus Muller would probably have
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  Speaker 2: taught him differently. And Gene wanted to start at the
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  Speaker 2: bottom rung. He wanted to actually begin as if he
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  Speaker 2: didn't know anything about the drums and go from there.
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  Speaker 2: The funny thing is that Gene was in the orchestra
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  Speaker 2: for it might have been Girl Crazy Musical in the
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  Speaker 2: fall of nineteen thirty, and it just so happened that
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  Speaker 2: Gus Muller was in the audience and maybe the first
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  Speaker 2: or second row. And uh oh, I know that guy
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  Speaker 2: Gene was busted.
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  Speaker 1: So Gus was like the go to guy for drumming lessons.
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  Speaker 1: I mean he was at Gene's showmanship talk about his
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  Speaker 1: approach to not just playing the beats but performing them.
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  Speaker 1: There was a word to describe it, duende.
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  Speaker 2: Duende. Yeah, that was a word I came across that
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  Speaker 2: a writer back and actually I think it was around
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  Speaker 2: the time that Jene died. This writer named George Fraser
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  Speaker 2: mentioned that Jane had duende and duende is basically it's
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  Speaker 2: hard to define, but it's basically sort of an emotional
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  Speaker 2: way of expressing yourself in the arts. Doesn't have to
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  Speaker 2: be music, but it has to be sort of a
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  Speaker 2: your unadulterated way of bringing forth your artistry to the audience.
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  Speaker 2: So it's a kind of thing where you don't really
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  Speaker 2: you don't hold back. It's not something where you're going
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  Speaker 2: to try to restrain yourself or say, oh, you know,
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  Speaker 2: it's also something that's innate. So Jane played that way.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: He played innately, He played the way he felt, and
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  Speaker 2: it didn't matter if other people said, what's wrong with you?
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  Speaker 2: Why do you make such a big deal out of everything?
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  Speaker 2: I mean, from very early on people were writing about
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  Speaker 2: him when he was in different early bands before becoming famous.
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  Speaker 2: They would say things like he's the comedian of the band,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: or he did everything except skate on the ceiling, you know.
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  Speaker 1: So Krupa made his first recordings in nineteen twenty seven
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  Speaker 1: with a band under the leadership of Red Mackenzie and
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: guitarist Eddie Condon, and then he was on six recordings
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  Speaker 1: by the Thelmatary Band in twenty eight, nineteen thirty four.
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  Speaker 1: This is the big year he joins any Goodman's band
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: and this is where he becomes a national celebrity. How
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: does he become a part of Benny's band? This story
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: is interesting because it wasn't something Gene jumped out right
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  Speaker 1: away because he was hesitant. There were a few previous
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  Speaker 1: jobs with Benny that left him a bit annoyed. Is that?
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's right? You know, I think if Jean had
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: had his brothers, he would never have worked with Benny
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  Speaker 2: after Benny was kind of a strange person. He was
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: a great musician, but I don't think he had very
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: good people's skills. He rubbed people the wrong way. He
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  Speaker 2: also in one of the bands that Jean was in,
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  Speaker 2: I think it was the Russ Colombo Band around nineteen
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  Speaker 2: thirty three. Benny it was his job to drive a
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  Speaker 2: really hard bargain as far as how much each musician
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  Speaker 2: would get paid, and it was something that a lot
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  Speaker 2: of the musicians in this band that he was helping
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  Speaker 2: to put together Benny was helping to put together, really
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: created a lot of resentment, and Jane definitely felt that himself.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, you're in the middle of the depression. You
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: need to have a good paying job, and so that
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: more than once I think. But then again, you know,
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  Speaker 2: they knew each other since the nineteen twenties in Chicago.
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  Speaker 2: They knew each other since they were young teenagers. They
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: didn't really get to know each other until Jean joined
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  Speaker 2: Benny's band though, in nineteen thirty four, and the reason
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: he was persuaded to do so was that John Hammond,
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: the one who brought him in and said, please please
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: come and join Benny's band. He said, you'll get to
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  Speaker 2: play a lot of drums, or the drums will be
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: a big feature for you, which was an amazing promise
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  Speaker 2: to make. It was amazing. Gene was very attracted to
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: that idea, and as a matter of fact, within a
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: few months of him joining Benny Goodman, Jean himself was
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: a big star and a very very crucial part of
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: the Benny Goodman orchestra.
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  Speaker 1: Benny knew he needed to step it up. That's why
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: he wanted to take Geen and bring him in. The
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: band needed that swing he needed to bring.
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  Speaker 2: That's absolutely right. The other drummers that Benny had had
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: worked with when he was trying to get something together
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: in nineteen thirty four were sort of the drummers who
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: were sort of like drummers of the past, and Gene
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: had actually, in particular, this one guy, Stan King, Gene
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  Speaker 2: had already sort of leapfrogged over him and working with
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: this band leader named Red Nichols. So, in other words,
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  Speaker 2: Gene tended to supplant other drummers who just weren't forward
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: thinking were as exciting or as good, and so it
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: happened again. Stan King was the drummer for Benny Goodman,
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: and Benny was underwhelmed, and I guess everybody was really underwhelmed,
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  Speaker 2: and Gene came in and really made the band explode.
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  Speaker 2: I guess there was really no way. It was something
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  Speaker 2: that they knew immediately once he joined that this was
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: going to be a big deal.
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  Speaker 1: The band was sensational, but Gene and Bennie weren't getting along.
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  Speaker 1: And from reading a book, it seems to me as
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: if Benny was in a position where he knew he
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: needed Gene, but he was envy of the attention that
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Jane was starting to get, and he was never going
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: to treat Gene differently. He was always going to be
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: the number two guy in the group. Was that the
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: gist of it?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, but the number two guy is great and kind
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: of amazing. You wouldn't normally expect the drummer to be
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: the guy if Benny needed help, advice, if Benny had
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: to go away somewhere and needed someone to rehearse the band,
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: that was Gene. That was his job was I think
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: he called himself the concertmaster. But yes, he was the
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: highest paid sideman in the band, and In fact, in
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: the swing or jazz world, the jazz at the time
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: was called swing, So that's why I'm referring to that
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: in case other some people don't know. But he was
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: the highest paid sideman in swing during that time that
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: he was with Benny Goodman, and that showed the value
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: that he had and how much he was valued by
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: his colleagues, as well as all the dancers and and
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: people who loved the band, who came to dance and
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: came to watch.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: The song Sing, Sing, Sing. People may not recognize the
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: song title, but as soon as you hear the start
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: of it, you recognize it because it's been in movies,
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: it's been in television, it's been everywhere. Yes, and that
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: was recorded by Benny Goodman in nineteen thirty seven, but
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: it was first recorded by Louis Prima in nineteen thirty
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: six and made famous by Goodman, especially Gene Grupa. His
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: tom tom interludes on the song were the first extended
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: drum solos to be recorded commercially. We have to go
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: back to when Gene has fully tunable tom's, which are
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: developed by the company's singerland.
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: Can you give us a bat's idea for Slingerland to
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: create fully tunable tom toms.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Oh, I got you. So that was his idea. Yeah, yeah,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: give us the backstory regarding that and also the cultural
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: impact of that song.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: As far as the fully tunable tom toms. He was
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: the celebrity endorser essentially of Slingerland drums, and Gene was
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: always looking for ways to sound and play better on
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: the drums, and he was always trying to get away
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: from the corny aspect that drums were known for back
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: when he was growing up. You know, they played all
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: sorts of there were all sorts of gadgets that played
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: corny sounds and funny, silly sounds, and Gene wanted to
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: strip down the drum set to just a very few
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: essential components. Then he realized, you know, he loved making
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: different sounds, but he wanted to do it himself, not
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: with silly gadgets. And one way to make better sounds
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: and have a greater impact was to have tom toms
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: that he could really work with and not just have
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: one sound come out of them, but a whole variety.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: And so really that his idea for doing that, and
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: he had other ideas for slinger Land drums too, as
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: well as zilogy and symbols. But that idea of the
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: fully tunable toms is really what made Sing Sing Sing possible,
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: or made his drumming on Sing Sing Sing as excellent
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: and as exciting as it was.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: So that was revolutionary really what he was developing there,
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: because to this day that's used.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And in fact the drum kit that he preferred
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: and that Slingerland ultimately then promoted became everybody's drum set.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Those very basic items, you know, the snare, the bass
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: rack tom and floor tom and about three symbols and
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: a cow belt. That was the one sort of cute
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: item that he retained from the corny days of the
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: nineteen twenties, and of course that featured prominently in the
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: song Sing Sing Sing at the end when he really
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: let loose. To me, just the most hair raising kind
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: of conclusion to any song that I've ever heard.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: And you have to put yourself in that time too,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: where people hadn't heard anything like that before.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: So that's right.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: Well.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: The interesting thing also about Sing Sing Sing is that
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: was actually responsible for how it developed because they first
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: started doing it really simply because it actually had lyrics
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: and so you could sing it.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Well, the Louis Prima version had lyrics, Yeah, that song
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: was one and two. Did the Louis Prima version have
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: that drum, did it have the opening? Did it have
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: all those solos? No?
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, no no. It was just basically a
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: pop song. The drums didn't have any particular at the time,
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: didn't have any particular important role to play. I think
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: later on, you know, after Jeane had done what he did,
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: then Louis Prima I think brought drums out to because
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: everybody was doing that. That is, after Gene showed what
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: you could do with the drums and became so famous
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: playing the drums, then everybody wanted to do what he
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: was doing. So when the Benny Goodman Band initially started
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: playing it, they had their vocalist Helen Ward was singing
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: the song. But then eventually something happened, and it might
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: have started with Gene where he said, well, I think
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: I would like to play more of an intro. I mean,
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: he had a little bit of a tom tom intro
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: that really sort of had that an African sound or
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: sort of a Caribbean kind of a sound, or a
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Latin sound, and he just kept stretching it in other words,
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: it would start with maybe four measures, and then it
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: would go to any number. And then once he started
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: stretching out his part, then the rest of the band
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: started stretching out their parts or added things. They just
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: added a whole. They threw the whole kitchen sink in
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: that song, and it became so different from what it
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: originally had sounded like. But of course during that time
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: they realized they didn't need Helen Word to sing the song.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: It was much better just as a very exciting instrumental book.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: On rock podcast, We'll be back after this now.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Might be a dandietown for that recess.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth Rosenthal, the author of the brand new book on
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Gene group entitled The Master of Drums, gen Krupa and
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: the Music He gave the world. Let's talk about Gene
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: Group of the person. Bassist Milt Hamilton called Gene a
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: beautiful man, and many others had similar comments. Talk about
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: a Gene group of the person.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: That's the amazing thing. Is I mean, as talented as
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: he was and as exciting as he was as a musician,
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: he was also just as wonderful a guy. Now he
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: was a mentor to loads of young musicians. They were
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: loads of acts of kindness. He did things people didn't
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: ask for. He sort of led them and showed them
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: how what they could do and how they could be.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: The later drummer, mel Lewis, was just a kid at
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: the time when Jane was had his band in the
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: nineteen forties, and you know, he was just a kid,
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: but he actually traveled with the band, and so he
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: was considered Jean's little pal. And mel Lewis, as I said,
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: was a drummer and was profoundly influenced by Jane and
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: at the same time was treated like a son. And
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: this happened with a lot of young kids, and in fact,
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: it was like the thing for young boys to want
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: to be just like Gene Crupa. Yeah, he had neighbors
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: who he embraced regardless of the fact that he was
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: a huge star and they were not in show business.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: So he had a lot of friends in and out
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: of music and treated everybody the same. There's also one instance,
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: which is a really good or a couple of good
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: examples of how Gene Croupa was as a person. He
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: started playing in the nineteen fifties with a group. Well
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: it was sort of an aggregation called Jazz at the Philharmonic,
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: And despite the name, they didn't stay at the Philharmonic
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: in Los Angeles. They traveled all over the world. But
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: be that as it may. When he first joined, the
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: person who sort of organized it and made it a
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: going concern, Norman Grants, said to Jane, because Gene was
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: such a big star, he said, Gene, do you want
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: to fly in your own private plane when we go
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: to the different gigs? And Jean said, what, why would
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: I want that? I'm no better than anybody else.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Norman Grants was surprised, because, you know, Jean was a
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: huge star. Why wouldn't he want to be treated like
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: a huge star. Jean didn't feel like that. I mean,
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: he knew what he was as a star, but he
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: also knew as a person he loved to be around
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: other people, and he loved to just enjoy the simple
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: things with other people. Another interesting instance of him showing
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: his humility was actually in the early sixties when this
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: vibraphonist named Terry Gibbs had a band and Jean's own
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: quartet was playing in this place called the Metropol Cafe
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: in Times Square in Manhattan. But then different bands played
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: at different times at the Metropol Cafe. So after Jean played,
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: he had his all the equipment was still on the
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: stage and it was a very small stage, and so
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Terry Gibbs and his people needed room, and so they
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: started moving Jean's drum kit aside so they could have
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: some room. And so the manager came along and said,
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: you can't do that. You know, that's gene groups drum.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: You can't touch it. And the manager also said Jane
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: is the star. He's a big star. You can't do that.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Then Jane, who was nearby, heard what was going on.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: He came over and said, excuse me. When I'm playing,
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: I'm the star. When Terry Gibbs is playing, he's the star.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: So go ahead, please move by drums.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: That's awesome, Yeah, that is cool. And you could see
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: Benny Goodman, like you said, Benny Goodman was the opposite.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: I guess polar opposite, not that the different personalities kind
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: of oil in water. And about after what three four years,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: he split with the band and he went out on
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: his own in March of nineteen thirty eight. But the
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: last few weeks with Benny Goodman were not fun. You
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: say in the book. In fact, things got heated on
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: stage and Jane, who rarely lost his temper and he
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: rarely swore, there was one particular night he couldn't hold.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: Back well after the Carnegie Hall concert that they played
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: in January of nineteen thirty eight. There's such a big
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: to do of it it, but Gene especially let loose
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: during that concert. And I recommend, by the way, anybody,
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: even if you're a rock fan and you're not familiar
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: with jazz, get that album. I just want to mention
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: that because it is like, to me, it's like the
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: first rock concert. It's that exciting, and not just because
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: of Gene, although he was a big factor in that,
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: but the music was just it was really it went
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: for the juggular. It was that sort of music. It
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: was that exciting anyway. So I had mentioned earlier that
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: John Hammond had persuaded he was somebody who was always
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: trying to create musical situations and discovered Count Basie band.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: So Hammond was always hanging around and trying to He
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: was whispering in Benny Goodman's ear. You know, Gene is
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: getting an awful lot of attention and you're not getting
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: as much attention as he is, and it doesn't that
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: bother you. Maybe he's really overdoing it. And Benny was
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: rather susceptible to that idea because he was kind of
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: feeling like and so Benny started trying to tamp down
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: Jean's do one day essentially, and Jean was, you know,
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: frustrated and you know, not happy with that. And in fact,
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: the audiences were not happy with that. They would say, hey, Jane,
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: play come on, you know, let's see what you do.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: He paid for the ticket, man, we want to see
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: him do his thing.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Jeans basically pointed at Benny and said, hey,
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: I can't. I got kind of worse and worse. And
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: then finally Jeane, toward the end of that time, I think,
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: I guess he I don't even know if he gave
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: two weeks notice. But in any case, there was one
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: night where he said eat some shit, Pops, and that
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: was said that to Benny Goodman. Yeah, and not his
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: usual way of talking, but he was really pissed off.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: And yes, he was a very even tempered guy. He's
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: not the kind of guy who just got angry or
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: he was not an explosive He was a very calm
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: even tempered guy. So yeah, he did that. But the
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: thing is, he was already searching for members of the
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: band that he wanted to put together, so he was
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: really gonna leave anyway. It's just that he left in
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: a kind of acrimonious way.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: Book Down Rock Podcasts will be back after this. It
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: appears as if he got hotter after he left Benny's band.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: What happened in the years of Folity had film work?
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Fan clubs started popping up.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. He started making movies in nineteen thirty nine.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: Now it was really just him and his band playing
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: at different points. In the movies that he was in,
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: he was not you know, some people said, oh, he
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: was a matinee idol. Well that's not really true. Even
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: though there was one point where he had the opportunity
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: to become a matinee idol and he turned it down
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: and said, that's not what I wanted to do and
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: it's not what my fans would want me to do.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: But he wasn't in a number of movies, including with
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Bob Hope and Gary Cooper and other big stars at
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: the time. The thing that was great was that when
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: Jean had his own band, he could do what wanted.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: He didn't have to worry about anybody breathing down his neck.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: You know, Benny wasn't going to be staring at him.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: That was one of the things that Benny Goodman used
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: to do. He used to essentially intimidate members of his
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: band by giving them what was called the ray, and
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: that just meant a very intense stare at them, which
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: seemed to mean that he disapproved of what they were playing.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: Man.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: But anyway, so he actually Benny may not realized he
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: was doing that, but he did it. So Jeane didn't
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: have to worry about that anymore. So he could do
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: he could become even more innovative. He may or may
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: not be familiar with this early song that he recorded
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: called wire Brush Stomp, which was all played on brushes,
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: But it was a very rocking song, and that was
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: actually debuted in the movie. It was called Some Like
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: It Hot, and it was a Bob Hope movie, not
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: to be confused with the most more famous later one
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: with Jack Lemon.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: And Marilyn jack Lemony. Yeah, yeah, speaking of that, I
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: watched Turner Classics all the time. That was my thing
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: with Dad and I. That was our so many things
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: we bonded over. But I don't think I've ever seen
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: the sal Minio film.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: They've shot it a couple of times. I mean, it's
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: good to see because of the music that Gene group
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: of plays. Now sal Minio mimes to his music, and
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: he does. He did a really good job, and he
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: studied Jeane's physical style, so he really did an excellent
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: job of playing Gene as a musician. It was remarkable,
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: and again, this movie was one of the things that
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: inspired so many guys to become rock drummers. The thing
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: I didn't like was one time they were showing it
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: and one of the hosts was this was when there
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: were different biopics. They were showing of the different swing
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: stars like Glenn Miller, and then Benny Goodman had his
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: own movie, and Jean was a third big band guy
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: who had his own movie, and so they were showing
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: Turner Classic movies. Was showing these movies one after the other,
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: and so the remark was made, well, I guess Jane
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: wasn't as nice a guy as Glenn Miller was. And
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Glenn Miller was played by Jimmy Stewart who was always
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: a nice guy, and that was not true. The script
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: may have made him seem a little less nice than
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: he should have been, But Gene was not like that.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: There was no way that you could not say he
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: was not a nice guy, not humble. He was always polite,
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: always welcoming. But for some reason that you don't get
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: quite that idea from the movie. So I was just
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: kind of annoyed though, that the host took that for granted.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, could that be because this is a question
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: I was going to ask, could that be because there
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: was a drug charge in nineteen forty three, did that
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: affect his image at that time? Because that was a
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: ninety day jail sentence.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: What happened, Oh, it was terrible. And this had to
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: do with marijuana. And nowadays marijuana is pretty much legal
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: everywhere and it's not even a big deal anymore. But
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: at the time, now this is marijuana. It was very
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: popular with jazz and swing musicians. It just was one
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: of those things that was part of the culture. It
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: was certainly not a bad thing. It was just something
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: that they did and I guess it made them relaxed.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: And Louis Armstrong was probably the champ when it came
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: to marijuana.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: So Jean was having a difficult time at this point.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: In nineteen forty two early nineteen forty three, he had
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: given up marijuana for a while. He had promised his
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: wife before they got married he would do that. He
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: started smoking it again, not a lot, but at the time,
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: the government, the federal government, was making a big deal
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: out of the dangers of marijuana and making it into
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: a drug that was completely They were making it sound
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: like it was so dangerous it could change your personality,
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: make you a totally different, horrible person, kill people, et cetera.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: Really and yeah, and they were just so essentially demonizing
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: anybody who used it. And some of this had to
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: do or maybe a lot of it had to do
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: with racial views concerning Mexican immigrants or Mexicans who lived here.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: I'm not really sure if the exact connection, except that
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: marijuana is a Spanish word, so there was bigotry involved.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: But jazz and swing guys were still by you know,
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: the the mainstream people, by parents, older people. It was
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: not something that was acceptable, if that can be believed.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: Just like rock became something that was shocking and the
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: older generation didn't like it. It was the same with
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: the swing music. And the big bands.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, my dad said that to you, because you
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: know those guys were like rock stars, you know, the yeah.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know there'd be complaints by people not
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: familiar with it. Boy, that was too loud, you know.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: I came out of there with my head pounding and
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: all this sort of thing. But people like Jeane. The
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: FEDS were interested in going after people and making examples
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: of them, and they did that with Gene. Basically, they
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: didn't find very much. They did arrest him in San Francisco,
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: and this was in January of nineteen forty three. He
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: was fingerprinted all those sorts of embarrassing things, and the
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: headlines were pretty bad to him, very cruel. Some of
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: the columnists were saying that, you know, his career is over,
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: where the church is going to get him now, or
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: things like that. He actually was able before the trial.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: He was actually able to continue to play until the
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: trial was scheduled. So during that time his fans still
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: loving him as much as ever and came to see
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: him in droves. So the fans did not care. But
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: it's just that other, you know, the powers that be
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: and other people who were just worried about image. Those
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: people cared. So, you know, Gene, he pled guilty to
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: a misdemeanor having to do with his band boy carrying
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: or having marijuana on his person, and there was also
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: a felony charge, which of course is a lot bigger
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: and would involve prison time. So Gene pled guilty at
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: the recommendation of his lawyer to the misdemeanor, pled not
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: guilty to the felony, and so the misdemeanor turned out.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: The judge wanted him to spend ninety days in jail,
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: and this was actually a shock because his lawyer, Jake Erlick,
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: who was a very experienced guy who represented people in
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: a lot of notorious criminal cases in San Francisco, he
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: thought that Gene was only going to have to pay
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: five hundred dollars fine and that would be the end
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: of it. No, he had to spend ninety days in jail,
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: and during the jail time that's when he was put
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: on trial for the felony. And it was just a
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: it was a disaster, it legal disaster. It was really
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: They railroaded him and he was convicted. Fortunately, his attorney
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: appealed and then a year later and the appeals court
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: in California struck down the conviction on the felony, and
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: it was just because of double jeopardy, so they weren't
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: even saying that he didn't do it. They just said
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: he already played guilty to the misdemeanor, which was essentially
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: just basically the same circumstances as the felony. So once
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: you did that, you really can't then prosecute him on
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: the felony. So that's double jeopardy.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: That really hit him hard though mentally and emotionally. It
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: took him a while. He slowly but surely came back
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: from that, but he took he was he took it hard.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: He was petrified. You know, he was of course demoralized.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: Who I mean, nobody wants to spend time in jails
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: for ninety days. As far as I know, he was
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: not treated badly or anything, but still it was jail, sure,
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: and he was actually actually ended up staying for a
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: little longer than the ninety days because the prosecutor wasn't
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: in any hurry, the administrators of the jail were not
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: in any hurry to let him go because you know,
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: he was convicted of the felony, which was on appeal,
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: so he had his attorney had to get him out
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: of jail again where Jean had to pay another bail.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: He there were I think three instances of him having
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: to post bail. So that's how he got into jail.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: And yeah, to moralize thinking his career was over embarrassed.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: What was great was that other band leaders loved him
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: as a person, even Benny Goodman.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and suddenly Benny Goodman Tommy Dorsey, Right, those are
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: the two big ones that gave him some gigs got
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: on his.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: Feet, right, Benny Goodman was the first, and then Tommy
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: Dorsey several months after that. And Jean was petrified even
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: just starting out again as a sideman. It was you know,
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: basically he was demoted from being a band leader to
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: a sideman. He was worried how he would be perceived.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: You know, first he would be playing to guys in
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: the military during the war, of course, at military bases.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: And then he thought, well, maybe they appreciate she hated me,
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: but you know, they're soldiers. And then there there was
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: the idea of going and playing in ballrooms. Then he thought,
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: well he was very well received there too. Everybody loved
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: him there too, and he thought, well, Okay, that's good,
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: But you know what about the movie theaters, because they
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: also played movie theaters. In between the movies, bands would perform,
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: and so he said, you know, and he's thinking, well, okay,
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: those two other things, you know, the ballroom and the soldiers.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: They liked me, but what about the average moviegoer they
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: and in each case it was like a pandemonium. Of course,
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: the real pandemonium would have been created by the teenagers
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: and college kids who were in the audiences and were
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: thrilled to see him, particularly in the theaters, but he
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: wasn't expecting that. He essentially cried, and later a few
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: months later he you know, in those days and maybe
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: even now, you know, men didn't want to be thought
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: of as showing emotion, that kind of emotion publicly. So
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: he said, well, you know, in an interview, he said, well, listen,
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: I let's just say I didn't cry. Let's just say
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: I felt hot and cold all over.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: That was.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: But he did, and it was just such a ground
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: swell of affection and people who talked about who were
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: there and talked about it later ed. Shawnessy was became
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: a well known drummer, played with Doc Severnson Johnny Carson's orchestra,
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: and he was there as a kid when Jean made
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: his comeback. And so a lot of these young drummers
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: who would go on to become successful actually witnessed what happened,
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: and it was, you know, very moving and anyway, so
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: once the California Court of Appeals struck down his conviction
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: on the felony, he was able to go and or
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: he felt that he could now go and assemble, reassemble
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: his band and take it from there.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: He played right up until right up until he passed away.
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: He was married to two women, but it was one
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: ethel that who appeared to be the love of his life.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: They married, divorce, later remarried. Talk about where they met
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: in that special bond they apparently seemed.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: To have, Yeah, well that was that's kind of a
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: funny thing the way they met. I think it might
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: have been as early as nineteen thirty. But anyway, he
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: was playing in New York and musicians, of course, would
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: perform late into the night, and so they weren't the
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: type of people if they didn't have to, they would
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: not be getting up early. So they would sleep into
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: the afternoon. And that's what Jean did, and he needed
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: a wake up call in the afternoon, and so Ethel
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: was one of the telephone operators and it was her
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: job to give him a wake up call. And they
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: sort of hit it off on the phone, you know,
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: and chatted, and so it was became more than just
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: a wake up call. And then he thought, well, he
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: sort of liked how she sounded on the phone. He
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: asked somebody if they could show him who she was,
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: and he thought, oh, she's really cute. And so it
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: took a month for him to get a first date
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: with her, but they did, and then not that long
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: afterward they got married, and they had troubles, and a
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: lot of that had to do with the fact that
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: he was a traveling musician and she wanted to settle down.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: And that's a tough thing because usually, unless you have
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: a local job, you're going to be traveling around and
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: your spouse is not necessarily going to be thrilled with that.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: La when he started, he had unhurried time, is what
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: do you call it? Was that when they got back together,
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: maybe when he was home more.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: It was actually only about four years after they got divorced.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: They remarried and Gene actually felt obligated to do that.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: He was a practicing Catholic, and I'm Jewish, I don't
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: know very much about Catholicism, but he felt that it
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: was the right thing to do by by the Catholic Church.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: And so that's that's how they got remarried. But the
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: funny thing is that between their divorce and the time
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: they got remarried, they were dating a lot. The gossip
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: columnists kept saying, oh, guess who Gene Krupo was seen
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: with today. Yes, it was Ethel, his ex wife, And
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: so for a long time there result there were these
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: rumors about the when are they going to get married again?
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: Et cetera. And finally, after some time, when there were
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: rumors going back and forth, when is he going to
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: buy her a ring? Et cetera, et cetera, it finally
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: happened in early nineteen forty six. They went on a
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: little honeymoons to Mexico and so then they were married
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: until she died, which was the end of nineteen fifty five.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: And that was a shock because she was young, only
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: in her forties. On the one hand, he was a
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: wonderful person. On the other hand, he did have a
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: flaw of which a lot of musicians did seeing other women,
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: you know, not that I mean if it had happened
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: to me, you know, if my husband did that, I
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: obviously it would be a major problem.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: But they must be women must have been all over
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: all the time he was.
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, he was somebody that women of whatever age, young, older,
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: were very They were enraptured by him. But since they
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: had these differences about his musicianly lifestyle, that is, the
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: differences between him and his wife, you could say that
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: was the reason for his essentially being unfaithful at different times. However,
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: when Ethel started developing these symptoms that turned out to
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: be a brain aneurysm, but they didn't know it at
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: the time. She was having all these terrible headaches, and
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: he was very worried about her. Jean was very worried
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: about her, and he stayed by her side. He couldn't
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: possibly leave her or or do anything. He felt that
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: it was his duty to be a to be there
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: for her, and he was, and it was.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: He had what you called unhurried time in the late
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: sixties and early seventies. He was enjoying his life. He
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: certainly earned it by that point. But then his health
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: started to fail on seventy five.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: Well that's really why he retired, you know. On the
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: one hand, yeah, he retired in nineteen sixty seven. On
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: the one hand, yes, it was unhurried time during the
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: years until he died in nineteen seventy three. He got
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: to enjoy his house. He had built this really big,
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: beautiful house in the early forties and Yonkers, but he
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: was never home to enjoy it, or hardly at home,
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: let's just say. But unfortunately, I mean, if it were
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: up to him, he'd still be playing. He still would
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: have been performing. But things kept going wrong, and you know,
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty he had a heart attack, but he
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: still he went back on the road anyway after a
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: while because he got kind of bored. Yeah, And in
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven he was diagnosed with emphysema. And now
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: he was a very very very heavy smoker.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's what I was wondering.
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: So it's not, you know, not as surprise that he
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: would have had a heart attack and then develop him
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: phisima and the episinma really brought him down for a while,
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: I guess, until maybe he had to take medications. But
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: there was a period where he did not have the
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: energy to do much of anything except hanging around the house.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: And then he was just starting to get back into
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: it doing some performing in nineteen seventy when he threw
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: his back out. He loved playing softball. He had a
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: local softball team and there was a freak accident where
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: he tripped somehow and just then some discs in his
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: back popped out. I'm not exactly sure, but anyway, it
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: was a very bad injury, and he had surgery and
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: he was never the same after that. And when he
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: tried to do some more performing, he could barely do
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: any maybe a couple of times a month. It got
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: to that point, and then around the spring of nineteen
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: seventy three, and he was wondering, why does he feel
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: so tired. It wasn't just like being tired after having
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: been active or something. He was just tired all the time.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: It was leukemia, and so he then, you know, he
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: was gone six months later, and that was that was
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: a bad time for him because even though he was
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: sort of in demand. You know, Benny got the quartet
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: back together.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, August of seventy three. Yeah, he manages to not
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: only make it to the show somehow. But there were
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: those who were there that comment in the book about
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: people saw him limping up to the drum kit and
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, as soon as the song
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: kicked in. It was like he just all of a
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: sudden into life, right. And then after the show, he
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: had they had to carry.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: Him, couldn't even stand up right to that.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they seemed to be astonished just by how he looked,
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: you know. And then but once the song came in,
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: there was you know, Gene group was back again. He's
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: putting everything into it. Booked on rock podcasts. We'll be
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: back after this.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: Now, don't go well as soon he would do.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: Was he in his sixties when he passed.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah he was. He was only sixty four when
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: he died. You know what, I'm almost sixty five. That
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: was really young. It's still young to me.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: I mean there were a lot of musicians who of
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: course outlived him by many years, and Jean was unfortunately,
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: despite his zest for life and his ambitions and his
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: love of music and being around musicians and other people,
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: he couldn't do anything about it. The leukemia essentially, what
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: it did was it took a huge toll on his
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: heart and so ultimately it was heart failure. I believe
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: that got him. But anyway, he was very young, so
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: not like he was some old guy who died of
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: But he made his mark. And that's why I want
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: to finish with chapter twenty six. And was devoted to
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: his influence on rock drummers, and you point this out
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: in the book, and this says it all. Keith Moon,
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: John Bonham, Ringo Star are considered to be the holy
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: trinity of rock drummers and all three are gene group
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: of fans. That just tells it all right there to
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: admires students of his skills, but we're not just talking
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: about classic rock drummers. And this is interesting. I want
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: to ask you about his influence on John was like
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: surf rock and punk.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: Oh yes, you would never imagine that. But there was
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: this musician named Dick Dale who may consider to be
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: the founder of surf rock, and it was, you know,
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: of course, it was a certain kind of guitar sound
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: with the reverberation and kind of on the aggressive side.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: And Dick Dale was a huge gen group of fans
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: and he decided that he was going to try to
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: play his guitar like Gene group of played the drums,
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: which was an interesting way of looking at his musicianship.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: But so he did that, and of course he influenced
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: Dick Dale influenced many other groups that became known for
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: surf rock, whether it was a Surfaris or the Ventures
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: and other groups of that sort. Even the Beach Boys,
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: they were sort of an offshoot and in the sense
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: that they were very influenced by the Ventures, who had
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: been very influenced by Jeane. So you can almost say
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: that the Beach Boys might not have been what they
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: were except for Gene Crupa. And as far as punk,
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: who would have thought that punk rock drummers would look
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: to him, But you had someone like Jerry Nolan, who
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: was a punk drummer for a couple of different bands,
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: including the New York Dolls. But when Jerry Nolan was
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: a kid in the nineteen sixties, and he did what
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: a lot of other people did, Jeane Crupa was playing
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: with his quartet at the Metropol Cafe in New York
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: and if you were under age, you couldn't go in unescorted,
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: that is, you could only stand outside and see what
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: was going on, and they would have the door open
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: so he could hear what was going on. Jerry Nolan
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: was one of those people. Actually, he was with his
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: mother at the time outside and looking in and then
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: finally got to meet him inside. His mother got him
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: inside and Jerry Nolan was so blown away. In fact,
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: was very influenced by Jean's style and also the way
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: he expressed himself while playing the drums, and so Jerry
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: Nolan found him to be a wonderful person, that wonderful
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: kind of a mentor as well as someone to emulate
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: on the drums. And apparently Jerry Nolan was considered has
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: been considered the most influential of the punk rock drummers.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: So there you have it, Gene Prupa all the way
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: from the big bands to punk rock.
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: There's a great story Peter Cris has told, and it's
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: in his book. And I think the specific so I
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: may be getting a little off, but Peter Cris was
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: a teenager and he got a chance to see Jane
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: play in a club in New York and Peter Cris
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: was just an unknown and he went up to Gene
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: after the show and I think he said, like Jeane
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: had the towel over it around his neck, you know,
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: just sweating after another great performance. But he just he said,
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm a huge fan and I want to
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: be a drummer. You know, you got any tips from
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: me or whatever? And he said he was just so
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: gracious and so kind to this kid who he never
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: met before. And Peter PRIs has told that sort of
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: many times. I mean that that's the one classic rock
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: drummer that I could just read so many times he's mentioned, Yes,
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: Gene Cruper, and you could hear it in the early
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: Kiss records. It's got that swing to it. It's got
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: that jazz swing to that early Kiss sound.
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: Right. There was certainly a stylistic influence, no question about that.
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: I just wanted to mention Ringo Star for a minute
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: because the funny thing is that there seems to be
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: a direct line from some of Gen Krupa's recordings with
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: his orchestra in the forties and what Ringo Star played
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: with the Beatles. And there's one particular song called The End.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: I believe it's the End where it starts off with
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: this amazing riff by Ringo on the drums, and although
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: it wasn't a particularly complicated drum passage. Nevertheless, it was
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: pretty similar to what Gene was doing in the early
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: forties with his band. And in some cases you'd hear
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: the end and think, gee, that sounds like Gene Krupa.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: And then if you go back and in the early
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: forties and hear something like there was a song called
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: Stop the Red Lights On, and there was a part
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: where Gene sort of took out the song or brought
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: the song along toward the end, and the sound you think,
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: oh my gosh, that sounds like classic rock when he's
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: doing there.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely, yeah, yeah, you can hear. It's like you
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: could draw a straight line right from Gene right through
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: to that classic rock era. And I would say a
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: lot of the drummers even today, I'm sure are inspired
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: by Jenkrupa, either consciously or subconsciously. They don't even realize,
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you know, yeah, the master of drums, Gene Krupa,
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: and the music he gave the world. It is out now.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: You can find it where her books are sold, and
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: you can look forward at your nearest bookstore. Bookedown rock
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: dot com. You can search for your nearest independent bookstore,
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: so if you have one nearby, make sure you pick
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: up a copy there. And can people reach out to
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: you online, Liz anywhere?
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, they can go to my website, which is
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: elizabethjroosenfal dot com and they can contact me through there
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: if they want to, and certainly I'll be very happy
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: to hear from them.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: I'll put a link up in the show notes so
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: people can go there. Liz, thank you so much.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: Thank you, thanks very much for having me. That's it.
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: It's in the books.