Latest / Politics Between Us / Maybe the Witch Was Right: Betsy Sweet on Love & Politics in the Maine Senate Race

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Maybe the Witch Was Right: Betsy Sweet on Love & Politics in the Maine Senate Race · Politics Between Us

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: Hey everyone, I'm Allison B.A.
• 0:04
  I'm in my 50s,
• 0:05
  I live here in Maine,
• 0:06
  and I have decades of civil rights work behind me.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Luca DeAngelis.
• 0:10
  I'm in my 20s,
• 0:11
  living in New York City,
• 0:12
  and I'm just trying to figure things out.
• 0:14
  Luca and I have been talking about politics and our personal
• 0:16
  lives for over a decade now.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and now we're bringing that conversation to you.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is a project about politics,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: purpose,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: and how to live a good life across generations,
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: across disagreements,
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: and across 30 years.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: This is Politics Between Us.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Episode 5 of Mud Season.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: This week,
• 0:41
  Luke and I had a great conversation with Betsy Sweet about
• 0:44
  Maine politics and
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Graham Plattner,
• 0:46
  who is the presumptive Democratic candidate for the US Senate
• 0:49
  race here in Maine.
• 0:50
  Betsy Sweet is just an incredible person with incredible
• 0:54
  experiences in politics.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: She has
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: for over four decades, served in so many different roles.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: She's been a lobbyist, an advocate, a community organizer.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: And she took the leap back in 2018 and actually ran for office.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: She ran for governor first in 2018 and then for Senate in 2020.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, Alison, Betsy is a delight.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: That was very fun.
• 1:15
  She has so much political wisdom,
• 1:17
  so much insight into this political moment.
• 1:19
  I mean,
• 1:20
  she has been talking about issues that are at the center of
• 1:23
  this race for a long time.
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  And I think it was particularly interesting for me to get to
• 1:29
  hear her perspective
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: on what is not getting reported right now.
• 1:34
  She really has some ideas about what the media isn't seeing
• 1:38
  about Graham Plattner
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  SPEAKER_01: and about his campaign.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: that I think everyone's going to find super interesting.
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  I also think she had some real insight into gender and what it
• 1:48
  means to be a woman
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  SPEAKER_01: in politics and that whole lens on this race,
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: which you and I talk about quite a bit.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I always want to be talking about women in politics.
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  SPEAKER_02: So that was awesome.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I think in many ways,
• 1:59
  this conversation was so reflective of what you and I are
• 2:02
  trying to do on this
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: podcast and talking about what I guess we call heart centered politics,
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: right,
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: Luca,
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: like the idea that we bring more of ourselves to politics,
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: more of our own personal lives to politics to make real change.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I loved it.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: maybe I wouldn't call it heart-centered politics,
• 2:18
  but certainly this idea that we need more love and connection
• 2:21
  in politics.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's called heart-centered politics.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, sure.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: It just makes it sound a little bit more woo-woo.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I do love the idea of bringing more love and connection to politics.
• 2:32
  And I think you and I really find a lot of meaning in having
• 2:36
  those conversations.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: And this was just the kind of conversation you and I like to have.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Lots of nuance.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: We can agree on that.
• 2:43
  Well,
• 2:44
  before we get going,
• 2:44
  our regular disclaimer,
• 2:46
  Luke and I work at Colby.
• 2:47
  I'm on faculty there,
• 2:49
  but the views expressed on this podcast are entirely our own.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: And listen, don't forget to stick around for age bait after the show.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: And with that, here's our conversation with Betsy Sweet.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Betsy.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: We are so excited that you are here at Politics Between Us.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: Hi.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Hi.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's so great to be here.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thrilled to see you both.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we wanted to start at actually sort of way back in the beginning.
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  SPEAKER_02: You just retired after more than 40 years working in politics,
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: in advocacy,
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: in grassroots organizing.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so a lot of us know a lot about your past,
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: but we're really curious,
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: why politics in the first place?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Why did you choose that as your purpose?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great question.
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  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's going to sound like a Hallmark card answer.
• 3:43
  But I really was raised in a family where my father always said
• 3:49
  to us kids,
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  SPEAKER_00: I was the youngest of five,
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  SPEAKER_00: You always leave a place better than you found it.
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  SPEAKER_00: So he meant sweep the floor, make the bed, do the dishes.
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  SPEAKER_00: I thought he meant change the world.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: So that was one thing.
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  It was also like I grew up,
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  I graduated from high school just after the Vietnam War ended.
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  So I kind of felt like I missed out on all the advocacy and all
• 4:15
  the protests and
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: that kind of stuff.
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  And then I think the third thing was when I was in college in
• 4:21
  the early 70s,
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  SPEAKER_00: and we had to do these career tests and the career center,
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  I took the test to find out what I was supposed to be and what
• 4:29
  they came up with
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  SPEAKER_00: was I was supposed to be the wife of a rancher
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  SPEAKER_00: and I was like, yeah, okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: So all of this is just wrong.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I went to a school where we were,
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  SPEAKER_00: I went to Colgate University where I was the second year of women.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I became totally radicalized feminist during that time.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I think that combination of things said,
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  I just have to do something where we can change the world and
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  make a better place.
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  So that's sort of what led me into advocacy and into doing
• 4:55
  something that I really believed in.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, wife of a rancher.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's incredible.
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  SPEAKER_00: It would have been a really different life.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: Betsy,
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: we're starting to get into it,
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  but one of the things that Alice and I like to talk a lot about
• 5:08
  is memory,
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  SPEAKER_01: and especially memory as it relates to politics.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: And this morning,
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: as I was preparing for this conversation with you,
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: I had this kind of memory of my own,
• 5:17
  which is that you were actually kind of an early part of my
• 5:21
  political memory,
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: because here I was,
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: this little gay boy growing up in rural Maine,
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: and we were connected because...
• 5:30
  Your Daughter Was Taking Dance Lessons From My Mom And I Just I
• 5:34
  Was It Came Back To
• 5:36
  Me I Was Like I Think Betsy Might Have Been My First
• 5:40
  Representation Of Queer Life
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  SPEAKER_01: In
• 5:44
  in public life because you were,
• 5:47
  you know,
• 5:48
  married to a woman at the time and raising a family.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was like, that's really powerful for me.
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  And then now thinking about my sister who is also married to a
• 5:58
  woman and raising a
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  SPEAKER_01: family in Portland,
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  SPEAKER_01: just really powerful to think back in that time.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, no.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I think,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's funny,
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  SPEAKER_00: I was just talking to someone the other day who asked me and it said,
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: was passing gay rights legislation really a,
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: was it hard?
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  I was like oh okay okay you know and on the one hand I do want
• 6:19
  to share a little
• 6:19
  bit of what it was like on the other hand I want people to
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  think no we should just
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  do the next thing right so it's not like we need to give get
• 6:25
  accolades but oh my
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  god so when we started you know so I started my political
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  career in Maine in 1982
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  SPEAKER_00: when I was three um no
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: and gay rights,
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: civil rights,
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  adding civil rights to the Human Rights Act was one of the
• 6:41
  first things that I
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  SPEAKER_00: worked on.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't, and at the time I was not out even to myself.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so I was like,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: I was worked for the women's lobby and I was like,
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  SPEAKER_00: okay,
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  SPEAKER_00: we're going to do that.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I just, I could not believe the level of hatred.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so then of course my own evolution happened.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: And when I was partners with Dale McCormick, she was the first
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  SPEAKER_00: openly lesbian person to run for office east of the Mississippi.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so it was,
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  SPEAKER_00: and we,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: you just sort of kind of do it,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  we were just kind of living our lives and doing the thing and
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  you didn't think
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  SPEAKER_00: about it until we realized that,
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  SPEAKER_00: oh my God,
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  SPEAKER_00: this is a huge thing for people.
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  And it might keep people from voting for this really smart
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  person who knows,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: like who is way more qualified than the person she was running against.
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  SPEAKER_00: You know, so I, so anyway, I just think that we have,
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: come so far in so many ways.
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  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, we haven't come that far.
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  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, so just and then we just decided we're just going to be it.
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  And then we were I think we were the first public couple or
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  publicly to be public
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  SPEAKER_00: open about having a child.
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  SPEAKER_00: together and, you know, raised our family.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then Dale ran for Congress when our daughter was two.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we stood on the stage in front of the Democratic Convention.
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  SPEAKER_00: And all of those things,
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: which seem not that different now,
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  SPEAKER_00: when you look at Pete Buttigieg,
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  SPEAKER_00: or you look at Jordan Wood,
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  SPEAKER_00: or,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: like,
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  SPEAKER_00: thank God,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's not that much of a thing.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I will tell you,
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  SPEAKER_00: in the late 80s and the early 90s,
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  SPEAKER_00: it was a huge thing,
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  SPEAKER_00: so much so that when we were
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Dale was running for office.
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  We had to have a police car in our driveway because of all the
• 8:14
  death threats and hatred.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we had for two weeks, the Monmouth police had to be in our driveway.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you know, that's actually fascinating.
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  SPEAKER_02: Thinking about both of those stories,
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  SPEAKER_02: we both need something like being told we have nothing,
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  no more aspiration other than being the wife of a rancher to
• 8:30
  actually make us act
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  SPEAKER_02: in that way.
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  And we also need to be validated that our existence and our
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  experience is something
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  SPEAKER_02: that matters,
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  SPEAKER_02: right?
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  SPEAKER_02: And so
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  How we come into our own political identity can be both from
• 8:43
  being told what we
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: can't be and by being told what we can be.
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  SPEAKER_00: It is a beautiful thing, Alison.
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  And I also think what's really interesting is I think what has
• 8:51
  been missing so much
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  SPEAKER_00: in politics,
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  SPEAKER_00: I love that you use that phrase,
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  SPEAKER_00: is that people don't believe that they matter.
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  SPEAKER_00: They don't believe that their lives matter to politicians.
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  SPEAKER_00: They don't believe that the life experience matters to politicians.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what they desperately want
• 9:09
  from somebody who is making decisions that affect their lives
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  is to believe that
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  SPEAKER_00: they are seen and understood and that they matter.
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  SPEAKER_01: So, Betsy, it's already coming out is that you have this kind of
• 9:34
  incredible emotional and kind of spiritual language around your
• 9:37
  politics.
• 9:38
  That's not how we're used to hearing kind of professional
• 9:41
  politicians sounding.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: Where does that come from for you?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it's what I observed for many decades was the disconnect.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like I really believed
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: in the promise of democracy.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: I know that sounds like lofty and whatever,
• 10:02
  but I really believe that we can make a good difference in
• 10:04
  people's lives.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I also every day believe,
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: despite all evidence to the contrary sometimes,
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: that we can do better,
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: that we must do better.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: and then I ended up doing a whole career augmentation in my 50s,
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: and I went to school and got a master's degree in psychology.
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  SPEAKER_00: Because it was like, there's got to be something.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: It can't,
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: just the political rhetoric and the policy,
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: linear policy stuff is too empty.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: when I did civil rights work and hate crime work,
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: it is so interesting to me that often,
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: lawyers would go in and say,
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: what happened?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Who was there?
• 10:44
  And I used to say,
• 10:45
  no,
• 10:45
  no,
• 10:45
  no,
• 10:45
  can you please start with,
• 10:47
  I'm so sorry this happened to you.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because people want
• 10:51
  to be seen,
• 10:52
  and they want their joys to be seen,
• 10:54
  and they want their struggles to be seen.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: And to me, that's the connection.
• 10:59
  For me,
• 11:00
  if politics aren't connected to the heart,
• 11:03
  then they're meaningless.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so in my advocacy role,
• 11:07
  I feel incredibly lucky to have only ever represented
• 11:12
  organizations and people and
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: clients that I totally believed in their mission.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: They were all mission-driven in what they were trying to do.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that has been
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: That was my intention, but it also has been an incredible gift.
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  And it has kept me positive and kept me passionate,
• 11:28
  I think,
• 11:28
  all these years.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting because there's many ways that you echo...
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Marianne Williamson, who I know is a friend of yours, right?
• 11:37
  Who ran for president twice and really made a name for herself
• 11:42
  by bringing her
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: spiritual teaching into politics,
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: And talking about love.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I've been thinking about how you center love and how that
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: really resonates for me.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: And yet,
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: a lot of the feeling,
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: Luca knows I love to talk about the feelings of politics,
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: a lot of the feeling right now and progressive energy is around anger,
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's anger at the system.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's anger at billionaires.
• 12:08
  And I'm delighted that people are directing the anger towards
• 12:12
  power structures,
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: but it's still anger.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm curious, how do you reconcile this?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: If we need love as the center of politics, how do we reconcile that
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: Progressive politics are often centered around anger.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 12:24
  that's such a great question because I think that is the
• 12:28
  downfall of politics right
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: now,
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: all politics,
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: from right-wing conservative politics to radical left-wing politics,
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: is everything is based in fear.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: and underneath the anger is the fear.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then we see the horrible nature of it at the national level.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so if we,
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: the politicians,
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: the elite,
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: whatever,
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: keep you afraid,
• 12:52
  then we can direct that fear into anger towards somebody who is
• 12:56
  the reason that you
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: need to be afraid.
• 12:58
  So it can be an immigrant or it can be the gay person or the
• 13:00
  trans person or the
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: poor person or the welfare,
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: the fraud person.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then that just turns people off.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because when people live,
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: you look at people,
• 13:10
  and I'm sure we all have friends in our lives and people in our
• 13:13
  lives who live in
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: fear,
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: and their worlds are narrow,
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: and their worlds are structured,
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: and they're very limited.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: And when someone can say,
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: nope,
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to live out of love and compassion,
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: and if that's what drives me,
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: It then allows me to look for the best part of whoever that person is.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: when I ran for office twice,
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: people were shocked,
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: and I was shocked quite honestly sometimes,
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: at the people who were completely opposite me on policy.
• 13:44
  but we got together and we could have conversations because we
• 13:49
  could connect
• 13:50
  through the heart and that was the entryway instead of saying
• 13:53
  here's the policy and
• 13:54
  you know let's talk about what we're afraid of and whether this
• 13:56
  policy works or not
• 13:57
  but to say let's take a step back and what is it that we care
• 13:59
  about what's
• 14:01
  important to you what matters to you and then go from there I
• 14:05
  think it opens up
• 14:06
  this thing and Marianne Williamson wrote a book called The New
• 14:09
  Age of Miracles
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: about just personally like when you get to
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: 50,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: 60-year-old,
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: whatever,
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: your life,
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: you can make your life very narrow and it can go like this,
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: go get narrower and narrower,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: or you can just bust it open,
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 14:25
  And I think that we all would benefit from the busting it open
• 14:28
  because it allows us
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: compassion and joy and connection that is really,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: what we're all hardwired for.
• 14:35
  Okay,
• 14:35
  I love this and I want to know what Luca thinks because I
• 14:37
  totally resonate with that.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think about,
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think it wasn't even,
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: it was,
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'd like to say that it was,
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: only in my 20s when I would have been like,
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: fuck that.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not listening to people.
• 14:47
  Like,
• 14:47
  I just want to know what,
• 14:49
  I know it's right and this is,
• 14:50
  and you're terrible people.
• 14:51
  I mean,
• 14:51
  I think I continued that through many decades,
• 14:53
  unfortunately,
• 14:54
  maybe even into my 40s.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: And now I feel completely, you know, I so resonate with this message.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: But Luca, what, I mean, can you, what happens in your generation?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:04
  I mean I think I also am I feel like between college and now
• 15:09
  when I'm I guess
• 15:10
  starting to get closer to 30 you start to see a lot more nuance
• 15:14
  in life in general
• 15:16
  and I think politically right now we are also just like in a
• 15:19
  time when we're
• 15:20
  starting to see that people want to like come together a little
• 15:25
  bit more I think
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: there's a counter reaction to like so much of the
• 15:30
  divisiveness and it actually makes me think about Marianne
• 15:33
  Williamson because I
• 15:34
  think when she first ran for president I remember her being
• 15:37
  treated almost
• 15:38
  completely as a joke amongst my peers and dismissed as this
• 15:42
  like wacky lady who had
• 15:44
  crystals and all this stuff and now I think her message is
• 15:47
  starting to come back
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: because I think people see that you can have a
• 15:54
  kind of this connection through the heart,
• 15:55
  maybe more that is,
• 15:58
  you know,
• 15:58
  change politics.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and it's so interesting.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Luca,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: about that because,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: in the early 2000s,
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like especially my kids and younger generation,
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: politics was almost irrelevant.
• 16:13
  It was like,
• 16:15
  you're all a bunch of,
• 16:16
  you know,
• 16:16
  you're all a mess,
• 16:17
  you know,
• 16:17
  you're all awful.
• 16:18
  And,
• 16:19
  you know,
• 16:19
  so we don't care about trying to fix you because it's all
• 16:22
  terrible.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm feeling a sense of,
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: maybe people wanting to come and get more involved in politics.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: and part of it's the candidates,
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: we see Graham Plattner,
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: really pulling young people in in a big way,
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: but not just him.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I do feel like it's some of that connection thing.
• 16:40
  And I think that that whole cultural thing about the Western
• 16:46
  traditional everything
• 16:49
  Hasn't Provided The Answers Whether It's Traditional Western
• 16:51
  Medicine Or It's
• 16:53
  Traditional Western Thinking Or It's Traditional Religion Or
• 16:56
  Whatever It Doesn't
• 16:57
  Address The Really Big Things That We're Having So There's A
• 17:01
  Little Bit Of An
• 17:02
  Opening For Maybe Looking At Things From A Different
• 17:04
  Perspective So I Don't Know If
• 17:06
  You Know This But And It Was Horrible What They Did To Marianne
• 17:10
  And When I Ran For
• 17:11
  Senate It's What Chuck Trumor Did To Me He Told Everyone In
• 17:14
  Washington That I Was A
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Witch
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: and,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: the guy from the Washington Post called me up and said,
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: is it true you're a witch?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I said,
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: if I am,
• 17:21
  I'm a very bad one because I would have taken care of this a
• 17:23
  long time ago.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 17:27
  I know.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm ready for the witches to run for office.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, right?
• 17:32
  Well,
• 17:32
  Marianne just wrote a great Substack thing called The Witches at
• 17:36
  the Polls.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, and then they said, well, and I heard you're a medium.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Is that true?
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Are you a medium?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: I said, nope, I'm an extra large.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: And he was like, no, no, no, I mean a medium.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, no, no, I mean an extra large.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that response is a fear-based response, right?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's a fear.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: And underneath,
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: really deep underneath that fear is this worry,
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: maybe a knowing,
• 18:06
  maybe a feeling that maybe there's something to it that's
• 18:10
  bigger than what we can
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: do.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Wait, this is totally gendered, right?
• 18:14
  The fact that they call you a witch,
• 18:16
  the fact,
• 18:17
  I mean,
• 18:17
  like,
• 18:17
  let's talk about that.
• 18:18
  You know,
• 18:19
  so much of your message when you ran for Senate in 2020,
• 18:22
  in the primary,
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: was the same message that Graham Plattner's using now, right?
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: You were saying it before,
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: and you were called a witch,
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: and you were called too open-hearted,
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: and I mean,
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: everything was said.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: And how much of this is really just about women have this big,
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: like the tiniest of millis,
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: whatever those are called,
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_02: to go through the needle to become elected.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: So how much of this is just gender?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: Is that we don't want women in power?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of it is gender.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of it is gender.
• 18:54
  I think a lot of it,
• 18:56
  and I do,
• 18:56
  I'm going to say it again,
• 18:57
  I think a lot of it is fear.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: There's a fear of women and how we do it.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And the first call I got when Graham Plattner announced,
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: the first day he announced,
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: I got a call half an hour later from Marianne Williamson.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: And she said, are you all right?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, what do you mean?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And she said,
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Weren't you furious?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like this guy, this is the exact platform you ran on.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Twice.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Governor and Senate.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: And you couldn't get the frigging time of day.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: And he's all over MSNBC and the Washington Post.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think part of that's a women thing.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's also what people are ready for.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think the systems have broken down enough now that,
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: and again,
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: when I ran,
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: I ran to say,
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: if this is a possibility and there's no one representing that,
• 19:45
  That Is A Tragic Lost Opportunity But I Think We Weren't Ready
• 19:49
  For Whatever Reason
• 19:51
  We Weren't Ready For A Woman We Weren't Ready For Heart
• 19:53
  Centered Politics You Know
• 19:55
  And I Do Think There's Some Misogyny In There I Think There's A
• 19:57
  Lot Of Fear In
• 19:58
  There And I Think That The Other Thing I Think Is Really
• 20:01
  Important Here And It's
• 20:02
  Really True For Graham Too We're Seeing It Now In Technicolor
• 20:06
  Is They Can't Attack
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: The Policies
• 20:10
  of healthcare for everybody,
• 20:12
  of daycare,
• 20:14
  of education that we can afford.
• 20:17
  Because the vast majority of Democrats,
• 20:20
  Republicans,
• 20:21
  and Independents believe in those policies.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: They believe in them.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: We believe in them as people.
• 20:30
  And so they can't attack the policy because then people are
• 20:35
  like,
• 20:35
  oh,
• 20:36
  wait a minute.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: So they have to attack the person.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Right, so in my case they did it through all the witch women stuff.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: In Graham's case, you're watching it in real time.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: When we go to personalities and characteristics,
• 20:50
  it's the first giant red flag of the weakness in the other
• 20:54
  side's argument and how
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: it's not connecting.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, it's Luca.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: A quick note before we get back to the show.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: You can find Politics Between Us on Spotify and Apple Podcasts,
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: but you can also find us on Substack at politicsbetweenus.substack.com,
• 21:18
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• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: support the show,
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: and join our conversation about politics,
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: purpose,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: and how to live a good life.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Please subscribe, share it with a friend, and help us build a community.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's linked in the show notes.
• 21:36
  Now that Janet Mills has suspended the campaign and assuming
• 21:40
  something doesn't go
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: sideways on the primary day,
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: Graham's going to be the candidate.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Does he use the same language of his campaign?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: You've tried to run statewide office.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know what Susan Collins is like as a candidate.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: What are the messages that are going to resonate for him?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: And what does he need to be talking to people about?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's such a good question.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd love,
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Luca,
• 22:01
  for you to sort of say what you think is going to resonate or
• 22:04
  what is resonating.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Something's resonating, right?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: in my 50 years in politics,
• 22:10
  I've never seen any candidate ever have a town hall and have
• 22:13
  1,500 people show up,
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: So he's speaking to something that has been missing big time.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: what gets reported on,
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: because we can talk about media and all that,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: is all the angry...
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: harsh, you know, like, let's tear down the system things, right?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Which is necessary, right?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's part of recreating it.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: But he also does talk about what it looks like.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: He talks about,
• 22:40
  imagine the creativity that gets unleashed and the thriving
• 22:43
  that gets unleashed
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: when you don't have to worry about paying a healthcare premium.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine the businesses that could be created,
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: the guys and women who could work on the ocean,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: working on climate change and fishing and whatever they love,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: like things that people...
• 22:56
  It moves their heart to do their work every day if they didn't
• 23:00
  have to make sure
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: they had health insurance,
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: just for one example.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: So the question is,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think a little bit,
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: and this is going to,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to go off onto this radical thing,
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Surprising, right?
• 23:16
  I think there's a legitimate unknown,
• 23:20
  which is,
• 23:22
  are we able to radically change the system
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: by having people change it in the past,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: tweaking it a little bit,
• 23:33
  but now we're seeing maybe some more major changes within the
• 23:35
  institutions while we
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: then look for something completely different.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Or,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: and I hate to even say this or think about this,
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: but or do we have to let it break so badly that people just say,
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: all right,
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: we're desperate now.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: We got to do something completely different.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that we...
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure that there is an answer to that.
• 23:59
  Maybe it's both end,
• 24:00
  but I think it's legitimate to have to think about that.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of what you heard about people who voted for Trump was,
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: what do we have to lose?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Everything's so broken anyway.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, why not just blow everything up?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah.
• 24:15
  The conversation on tearing the system down makes people really
• 24:18
  uncomfortable.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: It tends to be a populist message.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's really uncomfortable.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: Luka and I often talk, I mean, I'm the more institutional person.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm pretty comfortable with systems.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: I really like, you know, I like, I don't mind hierarchy.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: Luka's like, I'm like, I'm fine.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone, you know, work your way.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm less and less, right?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: Because I do see things don't seem to be working.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: But the tension
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: for me with populism is it's often around a charismatic person, leader.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it is very hard.
• 24:51
  We've had conversations with previous guests on this podcast
• 24:53
  about what happens to
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: politicians when they get in power.
• 24:57
  and you talk about open-hearted,
• 24:58
  like it is very hard to stay grounded with what they face.
• 25:02
  And so I'm curious if you think there are dangers to some of
• 25:05
  this populist sort of
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: fervor and specifically around Graham.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the pressure that is on him right now, it's unbelievable.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: So how does he navigate that?
• 25:14
  How do we not put so much faith in the populist hero that we
• 25:19
  actually don't end up
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: with,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: leaders who just become,
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: it's their,
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: they're the whole package.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's them as a leader.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that's so true.
• 25:27
  And I think one of the things that's really adding to the speed
• 25:34
  of the dissolution
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: is our extreme individualism.
• 25:38
  We are all desperate for the person,
• 25:40
  the person who's going to lead us out of the problem.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: And we saw it a little bit with Obama.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: He was the guy who was going to lead us into the promised land.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we are desperate for that person
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because quite honestly, that's way easier, right?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: To think, okay, you're going to tell us what to do.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: This is really hard.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: You just tell us what to do and we'll do it.
• 26:02
  And we like you and you're a good guy and you're handsome and
• 26:05
  you're fun and
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: you're,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: whatever.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't believe that whatever's next is going to be born out of that.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: It has to come from community, from groups of people.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not comfortable with that.
• 26:21
  We Don't Know About That So Instead We Assign This Savior Role
• 26:28
  To A Person Which
• 26:29
  Has Happened I Think We're Doing It With Graham And Not Because
• 26:34
  That's What He Has
• 26:34
  Tried To Make Happen Like The Thing That's So Amazing That
• 26:37
  Doesn't Get Talked About
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: At All That I Talk About All The Time Is
• 26:41
  I have never seen a campaign or a candidate so dedicated and
• 26:46
  spending time and
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: resources in building movements.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like thousands and thousands of people at local areas,
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: local levels,
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: not just canvassing and doing the campaign things,
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: but having dinners together,
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: talking about,
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: working on their local school boards together.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like it's this whole underground thing
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: that was only underground because no one's reporting on it.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: But it is huge.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that is Graham's leadership.
• 27:14
  He'll say,
• 27:14
  and again,
• 27:15
  it doesn't get reported,
• 27:15
  he says,
• 27:16
  this is not about me.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just one little piece.
• 27:19
  And if I can inspire someone to get involved in their own
• 27:22
  communities and in every
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: town hall,
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: everything he says,
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: please get involved.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Go find your local housing group.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's where we need you.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so even when they try and do it, we're so reluctant to it.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: because I think it's hard.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to imagine and we don't have good models of it.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a huge challenge and a lot of pressure on any candidate.
• 27:48
  It's interesting that you went towards that piece of his
• 27:51
  campaign because that's
• 27:52
  also when you asked me earlier what I think resonates or is
• 27:56
  resonating the most
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: with his campaign.
• 27:57
  I'm really drawn to kind of his like neighborliness around his
• 28:01
  politics and this
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: idea that he,
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: I've said this to Allison before.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's just he
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: seems like he would be a good neighbor, like my brother.
• 28:11
  You know,
• 28:11
  he would come and help you shovel your driveway if you broke
• 28:15
  your leg.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what people want in their politicians.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: They want people who feel like they have their back.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: And Allison,
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: we have this one clip of Graham that I think,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Allison,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think that it could be helpful for our conversation to show that.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do it.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:37
  If you listen to what she was saying Just hear me out If you
• 28:41
  listen to what she was
• 28:42
  saying At its core she's angry about the exact same things you
• 28:45
  are People are
• 28:47
  propagandized People are misinformed But people are not stupid
• 28:51
  And we shouldn't
• 28:51
  treat them as such People are angry because they know they're
• 28:54
  being screwed They
• 28:55
  might get lied to They might get taken in If somebody robs your
• 29:00
  neighbor's house
• 29:01
  You don't go over there and laugh at them afterwards They've
• 29:04
  been taken advantage
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: of And that's what this is
• 29:09
  People are being robbed They're being robbed of their critical
• 29:13
  thinking They're
• 29:14
  being robbed of their empathy The answer to that is not shame
• 29:19
  The answer to that is
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: not anger The answer to that is empathy and compassion Thank you
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: So to me,
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Betsy,
• 29:27
  that's really what I feel like we need to be seeing more from
• 29:32
  Graham Plattner
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: about,
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: that message.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that's necessarily what's getting out there right now.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: So how do we get that out there?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 29:42
  it's a really great question because the problem is that the
• 29:46
  consultant class,
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: the political class,
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: all to different degrees,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: depending on where you are,
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: wants to say that doesn't sell.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's not gonna get you voters.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's not gonna get you, you know, like, right?
• 29:59
  That's gonna just piss off the people who are self-righteous
• 30:02
  about what's going on.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not gonna bring in the people who, you know, right, whatever.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you can't do that.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: You can't say that.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's fascinating to look at,
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Mandami's campaign in New York,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: in which I think that he,
• 30:15
  and there was an interview I saw with him that said the hardest
• 30:18
  thing about his
• 30:18
  campaign was staying on his own true north and not doing just
• 30:21
  what the consultants
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: said.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's just,
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: honestly,
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: they come in and they want to,
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: and ours are,
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: in my view,
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: the left-wing populist,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: people are better at it than the other people.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I like them better.
• 30:36
  But it's not that different in terms of their tactics,
• 30:38
  which is to say,
• 30:40
  here,
• 30:40
  do this.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: And what I think people are drawn to with Graham,
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: but also with Trump,
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: and you said it,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Luca,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: and Bernie,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: is their authenticity.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, we're just going to say the thing.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, and you can like it and you cannot like it.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, but it's it is the thing.
• 30:58
  And I think that's also has always been something that people
• 31:02
  want someone that
• 31:02
  they can trust that they're going to say what they're going to
• 31:05
  say and mean it.
• 31:06
  Well,
• 31:06
  this is this is counter to your idea of about kind of not
• 31:10
  finding a savior.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: But if you really believe that about like connectedness of the heart,
• 31:15
  you also want a candidate who's like leading with their heart
• 31:18
  like that will
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: connect with people.
• 31:20
  exactly and a political consultant will say the only thing that
• 31:22
  elects candidates
• 31:23
  is fear and I don't care if you're a left-wing consultant or
• 31:26
  you're a right-wing
• 31:27
  consultant the only thing that works is negative advertising
• 31:30
  the only thing we're
• 31:30
  you know like right and so it's a huge gamble for a candidate
• 31:36
  to say I think it's a
• 31:37
  different thing you know and then there's all these pressures
• 31:41
  right like okay the
• 31:42
  democratic control of the senate is on you you can't take that
• 31:45
  chance you know like
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: so it's so like
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think someone like Graham does try to do both ends,
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: but what the system picks up on,
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: the media system,
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: is not that,
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: what he just said.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's the other thing.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I think part of it is up to us to amplify that message.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to talk about
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: one thing that has been hard,
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 32:10
  in this campaign that I would love it if you could help us go
• 32:13
  deeper in it.
• 32:14
  And it's the tricky part about Graham having to heal himself in
• 32:18
  real time and in
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: public based on his past.
• 32:22
  And I'm curious if you can get us deeper in this because right
• 32:25
  now it's compelling for me
• 32:28
  that Graham is talking about his evolution as someone who has
• 32:32
  had their own
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: evolution in life and personal and professional,
• 32:37
  especially around issues related to women or whatever identity
• 32:41
  that has been part
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: of his past.
• 32:44
  I don't think it's I don't for some people it's not sufficient
• 32:48
  right to say well
• 32:49
  he's made these statements and he's learned from them but I
• 32:51
  feel like you of all
• 32:52
  people help that there's a bigger picture here and I like help
• 32:55
  us help how do we
• 32:57
  talk about that to people who say no I've decided this is just
• 33:01
  you can't make those
• 33:02
  mistakes how do we get around that well you know it's so
• 33:05
  interesting because it
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: goes to the theory of organizing and the theory of change
• 33:10
  Right so if we are willing to say sorry you can't change or you
• 33:16
  can't change that
• 33:17
  much or you know whatever we're not going to buy into this
• 33:20
  evolution and someone's
• 33:21
  healing and no matter what how much work they've done on
• 33:24
  themselves or how much
• 33:25
  therapy or how much you know understanding reaching out
• 33:28
  learning blah blah blah if
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: it doesn't ultimately we can't trust it
• 33:33
  then really organizing is very different organizing is not
• 33:36
  persuasion it's not
• 33:38
  coming together finding common ground it's finding our people
• 33:42
  so basically all
• 33:42
  we're trying to do is find the people who think just like us
• 33:45
  and we hope that
• 33:46
  there's enough of them to win I don't think that's nearly
• 33:49
  nuanced enough and it
• 33:52
  leads to like these purity tests that are we lose every time
• 33:57
  and I think you know
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: it's
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not what we say,
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: anyway,
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: we,
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: the collective,
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: we of advocacy and,
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: politics adjacent people,
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: not say what we're doing.
• 34:09
  We go canvassing on doors to have real conversations to help
• 34:12
  persuade people to change,
• 34:13
  right?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's the whole basis of what we're talking about.
• 34:17
  But really,
• 34:17
  if we don't believe people can change,
• 34:19
  then really we're not doing that.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Really, we're just trying to identify you.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that maybe comes down to, do you believe that
• 34:26
  There's enough of us who believe the same thing that we could
• 34:29
  win in a majority-led system.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't look that way.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: So then what are we left with?
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then the same thing is true for anyone.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: Should no one go to get help and therapeutic help and mental health help?
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: There's a big movement for restorative justice.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: If we don't believe in that,
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: Then we should stop talking about it.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: We should just say we just want punishment.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Or we just want,
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: if we don't believe people learn and change and grow,
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: then just people who are bad people,
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: either socially or criminally,
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: then we just will lock them away forever.
• 35:10
  I don't think there's very many people who,
• 35:11
  if you go there,
• 35:13
  say,
• 35:13
  yeah,
• 35:13
  that's right.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm having this kind of moment where I'm like,
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like the Democrats,
• 35:18
  they all know that probably the most famous political mistake
• 35:21
  of the last two
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: decades is Hillary Clinton's basket of deplorables comment.
• 35:27
  And probably one of the best things the Democrats could do for
• 35:29
  their brand is to
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: show that people are not irredeemable.
• 35:33
  People can make mistakes that we find really galling and then
• 35:38
  come back from them.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: I also think it speaks to our relationship with vulnerability.
• 35:44
  I think there's a conversation or a that's not conversation
• 35:49
  what do I say there's
• 35:50
  there's a thing about like not being vulnerable like that's
• 35:54
  that's what's good
• 35:56
  that's who's strong that's who's whatever and I one of my
• 36:00
  favorite quotes is
• 36:01
  perfect vulnerability is perfect protection and so when we see
• 36:06
  someone being
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: vulnerable do we see that as a strength or weakness and to me
• 36:13
  If you're a politician that is going to make policy based on
• 36:17
  people's lives and as
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: if they matter,
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: understanding vulnerability,
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: being vulnerable,
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: being open about it is the biggest strength we can have.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's beautiful.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's making me think about,
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: so here we have Graham Plattner who,
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: I've talked to people who,
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: and I agree with this,
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: no woman candidate could
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: be standing with what Graham has sort of his past, his moments, right?
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: No woman, as we talked about, right?
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: That what women have to do to get elected.
• 36:47
  And yet he as a candidate is now giving us at least an
• 36:52
  opportunity to have a
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: conversation about what it means to be human,
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: really,
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: And for some people it is,
• 37:02
  I guess I would also like to embrace that for those who can't
• 37:06
  move with that,
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: also accept, you know, sort of keep them in the fold as well.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: I get it.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like I, and I also think there's a piece of it that's really important
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: especially for white men and white men like Graham.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: I always say to him, can you just sound less angry?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: He said, Betsy, listen to me.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Graham Plattner.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: He said, I sound angry.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: I have that.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's my voice.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, I got you.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I think another thing I think connects with people,
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: and Luke,
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if this is an experience that you think young people are having,
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: is he acknowledges his privilege as a white male veteran,
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: whatever guy,
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: and is willing to
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: and anxious and wanting and has used it to help bring people along.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: One of the most moving things I ever saw,
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: and it was,
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think they put on social media,
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: but I was at the Damariscotta Town Hall.
• 37:59
  So first of all,
• 38:00
  there's 750 people in Damariscotta,
• 38:03
  which is like unheard of.
• 38:04
  And I actually did really,
• 38:07
  really well in both my campaigns in that area of the state.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: I went to this room with 700 people.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think I knew 20 of them.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was shocked.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, a transgender woman
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: said, I would love to go door to door for you.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: I can't.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's not safe for me, right?
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: And explained that.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: And Graham,
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: and it was not planned,
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: it wasn't scripted,
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: he kneeled down and went to this woman and said,
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: I am sorry that that's true for you.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that one of my jobs is to go to the places where you can't go
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: to talk about you, defend you, to lift you up.
• 38:49
  And by the way,
• 38:51
  if you ever want to go to a door or anywhere else,
• 38:53
  I am happy to go with you.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not a man who wants to tear anyone down or put it,
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: like that's someone who has an understanding that is so freaking deep and
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: privileged understanding and we don't see that much.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: and I think that's part of what the honest thing is.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: No one told him to say that.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: No one told him to do it.
• 39:22
  No one told him to get down on his knees and look her straight
• 39:24
  in the eye.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: We've talked a lot about women,
• 39:27
  but the other thing that's going on here is Graham is
• 39:30
  demonstrating different
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: versions of masculinity.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: Luke and I talk about this a lot.
• 39:36
  Women may have to get through the eye of a needle,
• 39:38
  but men have also similar constraints,
• 39:40
  right?
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: Your point about vulnerability, right?
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: That is not a place that most men can...
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: Benshapes.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: We haven't even talked about the amazing work you did on clean elections,
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: about money and politics.
• 40:09
  I love that our conversation started with that you didn't even
• 40:12
  realize this was
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: going to be a big deal,
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: being an openly gay person in politics.
• 40:17
  You seem to sort of get out there ahead before you even realize
• 40:22
  what you're doing.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: This has been such a powerful conversation,
• 40:26
  and I would just say I cannot tell you how grateful I am that
• 40:29
  you didn't become the
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: wife of a rancher.
• 40:35
  I will say I agree with you yeah Luca do you have any thoughts
• 40:43
  you want to close us out with
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: Wow,
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just,
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 40:46
  I'm imagining an alternate reality where Betsy is like off in a
• 40:51
  roostic county on a
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: potato farm with her husband.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: But no,
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: it was really special to get to reconnect with you,
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: maybe 20 years after I last saw you or something.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
• 41:03
  it was just a really powerful conversation for me to be able to
• 41:07
  kind of explore
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: these more...
• 41:10
  emotional and spiritual elements of politics that Allison and I
• 41:13
  love talking about.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for me too.
• 41:15
  And I just am so grateful that you guys are out there and that
• 41:17
  you're doing this.
• 41:18
  And there is,
• 41:21
  there's so many,
• 41:23
  there's no one path,
• 41:24
  there's no one thought.
• 41:25
  And I think that the opportunity to collectively think about
• 41:29
  these things and
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: understand the meaning and that they matter is an incredible thing.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: Blessing and Opportunity.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I am so grateful to both of you for having me.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you know,
• 41:42
  if you ever want me back and to talk about clean elections and
• 41:45
  all the other
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: things,
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm more than happy to come back.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: All right, we'll do take two.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah, yeah, we can do take two.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, but it's just you're awesome.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I love this format.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I love both of you.
• 41:58
  And I think that I have the other thing that I will say that I
• 42:02
  think has kept me in
• 42:02
  it for so long is that I truly believe in the goodness of
• 42:06
  people and that we all
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: want to do better.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you for guiding us through it all.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: This has been wonderful.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you both.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome everyone to Age Bait.
• 42:27
  This is the part of our show where Luca finds something on the
• 42:30
  internet and brings
• 42:31
  it into our conversation to get my reaction and to figure out
• 42:34
  how we both feel
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: about issues related to politics.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Politics and also our personal lives and whatever else.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, last week we talked about dating, Allison.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever else comes up, right?
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: But today is a bit more strictly politics.
• 42:48
  I'm going to bring you a clip of a different Senate candidate,
• 42:54
  young man running for Senate.
• 42:55
  And that would be James Tallarico,
• 42:57
  who's running as a Democrat in Texas for Senate.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about Graham Plattner all the time,
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: but James Tallarico is kind of the other big name on this right now.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: So let me play you a quick clip of him speaking.
• 43:09
  I do think we've seen an uptick since the pandemic of young
• 43:13
  people trying to rejoin
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_03: religious communities.
• 43:17
  I think the key is how do young people remake religious
• 43:21
  institutions in their own image?
• 43:23
  You know,
• 43:23
  the word religion literally means to re-ligament,
• 43:27
  to reconnect us into one body.
• 43:29
  That oneness is kind of the foundational truth underneath all
• 43:32
  religious traditions
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_03: that we're all connected.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_03: In some ways, we are
• 43:36
  conducting a real-time experiment on an entire generation of
• 43:41
  young people.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_03: Because throughout human history,
• 43:44
  we have always needed communities to wrestle with the big
• 43:47
  questions of life.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_03: What does it mean to be a human?
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_03: What is evil?
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: What is love?
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_03: What does love demand of us?
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_03: Those are questions you're not going to struggle with at work.
• 43:58
  Those aren't questions you're going to struggle with in a
• 44:00
  political party or in an
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_03: election cycle.
• 44:03
  And so we're missing communities where you can have these
• 44:06
  conversations about the
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_03: most fundamental questions in our lives.
• 44:09
  We're all living now in an incoherent universe without a story
• 44:12
  that helps us make
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: sense of our existence.
• 44:16
  So there's a lot of conversation right now about the role of
• 44:19
  religion in politics.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think specifically we're seeing a lot of conversation about
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: young people and religion and religion on the left.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: And this kind of brings all that together.
• 44:29
  And I'm pretty naturally predisposed to being kind of skeptical
• 44:34
  of organized religion.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I feel like you often approach this topic from a different angle.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: So when I heard this clip,
• 44:40
  I wanted to bring it to you and to see how you feel about this
• 44:43
  kind of angle from
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: James Tallarico.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's a lot here.
• 44:47
  I'm trying to decide if I should tell you what I resonate with
• 44:50
  or what is frustrating to me.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: I want resonate first.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_02: You want resonate?
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 44:54
  I think that religion can be one of the most affirming ways of
• 44:59
  building community.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: I grew up,
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I told you the story,
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: but when I was growing up,
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: my parents belonged to something called the Floating Parish.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: Here we go.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I think I know where this is going.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, the floating parish.
• 45:10
  So the floating parish,
• 45:12
  these are a lot of anti-war activists in the early 70s.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_02: And we used to go from every like house to house every Sunday.
• 45:19
  And they called it a parish and they felt like they were giving
• 45:21
  back to the
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: community and they were coming together in love and charity.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_02: There was this idea that you came together to take care of people.
• 45:28
  Well okay I really like what you're saying here about kind of
• 45:32
  the idea of religion
• 45:34
  being tied to service in your upbringing and stuff like that
• 45:38
  but I feel like that's
• 45:39
  not what I see in a lot of maybe not religion on the left but
• 45:42
  spirituality on the
• 45:43
  left is directed more like internally like at yourself and I
• 45:47
  feel like a lot of it
• 45:48
  is not community oriented or you know charitable vision that it
• 45:56
  sounds like the
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: floating parish was
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's an interesting point.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes religion makes you think of the collective,
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: and sometimes religion focuses you on yourself.
• 46:05
  And I think what I like about what Tallarico is talking about
• 46:09
  is actually religion
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: as a way of building community and building bonds with each other.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the left is so scared of faith,
• 46:17
  but actually faith can be one of the most powerful motivators
• 46:22
  for people to join
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: together and to make change.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 46:26
  Sometimes I think the left is just so scared of anything that
• 46:30
  feels like there's
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: something,
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: something that we can't explain,
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: something that we can't understand,
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: and yet I'm comfortable with not knowing everything.
• 46:39
  Okay,
• 46:40
  don't laugh at that because I'm actually not very comfortable
• 46:42
  not knowing anything.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was like, well, that doesn't sound accurate at all, but...
• 46:46
  I think faith is a really powerful political tool but I don't
• 46:53
  think that is the
• 46:53
  same as religion and I think just going back to I have my
• 47:00
  suspicions towards
• 47:00
  organized religions you know they similar to a lot of political
• 47:03
  structures right
• 47:04
  now religious structures feel corrupt to younger people and
• 47:09
  hierarchical and
• 47:11
  they're like supporting things that aren't actually in line
• 47:13
  with like the values
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: that they are supposed to be
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: But does your generation, I mean, do you trust any structure?
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe that's a piece of it.
• 47:22
  But even my parents,
• 47:23
  I feel like my parents don't trust like the Catholic Church.
• 47:26
  They were raised Catholic and I feel like they don't trust the
• 47:28
  Catholic Church.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like there's been,
• 47:30
  this has been a long simmering aspect of American life over the
• 47:34
  last few decades.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: Has it not?
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: Or is it that religion has started to feel more partisan?
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's very interesting.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: I do think,
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: and that's where I think I disagree with Tellurico,
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: that conversations around the meaning of life,
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: about love,
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: about purpose,
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: aren't political conversations and shouldn't be in politics.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_02: I actually think that they do need to be.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that our interview with Betsy Sweet was very much about that,
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: that there is a way to connect those...
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_02: What you might, don't freak out at me, but Christian values, right?
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_02: Some core, you know, Jesus's beliefs.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: Don't.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm making faces now.
• 48:11
  There's incredible power in these ideas of how we take care of
• 48:16
  our neighbor,
• 48:17
  right?
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's what, wait a minute, wait, I'm not going to let you.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'm like, former ACLU of Maine, executive director, promoting
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: Christian values in the government.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: And right, that's the next thing.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it should be taught in schools.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:31
  She's like,
• 48:31
  so this is why I think we should have the Ten Commandments out
• 48:34
  front.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: I know that's not what you're promoting.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's not what I'm promoting.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: Love thy neighbor.
• 48:39
  But I do think,
• 48:40
  love thy neighbor,
• 48:41
  which is what you get so excited about Graham Plattner.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you can't even see straight.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: You're so happy with the whole take care of each other's neighbors.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_02: So some of these principles are really, these are religious tenets.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: No, I agree that religion has a lot that we can mine from it.
• 49:00
  And I actually think that's what Tallarico is kind of getting
• 49:02
  at in this clip,
• 49:03
  is that he is actually saying that there is a lot in these old
• 49:07
  messages that
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: resonate with young people.
• 49:09
  And I think especially in a time when people are feeling like
• 49:12
  they don't have
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: meaning or life is incoherent.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: Right, and they're not just Christian, right?
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: These core principles, they cut across all major religions, right?
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, yeah, maybe.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: You're not gonna go to church on Sunday, are you?
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to church.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I've ever been to church.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, and that, but, you know, I remember, no, I'm not upset.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think you have to go to church.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just,
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_02: I do,
• 49:37
  I also think that churches historically have also been the home
• 49:41
  of incredibly
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_02: important political organizing,
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 49:44
  That is,
• 49:45
  the black church in particular,
• 49:47
  right,
• 49:47
  was instrumental in the civil rights movement.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think,
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_02: again,
• 49:51
  the left gets scared of religion and distances itself without
• 49:54
  understanding how
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_02: important religion is to politics,
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 49:58
  I can get behind the idea that we need to be more open to
• 50:02
  lessons from spiritual
• 50:03
  leaders and a little bit of faith in our in our politics can go
• 50:08
  a long way faith in
• 50:09
  politics there you go yeah well I think that's a good place to
• 50:13
  end it I think we
• 50:14
  both like a gentler populism probably but I'm a little bit more
• 50:18
  I can get down for
• 50:19
  a little bit more anger in there but anyways Allison thanks for
• 50:22
  talking it through
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: with me and we'll talk tomorrow yeah talk tomorrow Luca