Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 740: Understanding Suicide with Paula Fontenelle

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Episode 740: Understanding Suicide with Paula Fontenelle · The Trauma Therapist

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  Or welcome back to the Trauma Therapist podcast. My name is Gaming Person.
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  My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible cells, to be human,
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  to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer in
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  who we are is more important than what we know, and this requires cultivating
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  authenticity, genuineness and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more about
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  my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot com. That's
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  the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started. Paula, here we
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  go, so five four, three, two and one, our folks,
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  welcome back to the podcast. I am very excited to have back. Paula
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  Fantal Paula welcome. Thank you so much, guy, thank you from asking
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  me to come here again. You are welcome. So for more than twenty
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  years, Paula has worked as a Brazilian journalist, but that all changed after
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  the suicide of her father in two thousand and five. After experiencing this trauma,
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  she dedicated decided to dedicate time to preventing suicide. Since then, she's
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  trained in second one analysis and just finished her master's in clinical mental health.
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  For more than twelve years now, she's been helping families deal with this kind
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  of loss and those who are at risk for self inflicted death. Paul has
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  completely transformed her trajectory after losing her father, and she would love to inspire
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  others to reframe their loss and find other ways to deal with their pain.
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  Paul's book is titled Understanding Suicide, Living with Loss, Haths to Prevention,
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  Welcome Back, Thank you. To remind everyone who may have not heard your
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  first episode where you're from originally and where you are currently. I'm from Brazil.
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  I'm from a city in the northeast of Brazil called Recife. So if
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  you look at the map of Brazil, it has kind of a point to
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  the right. We often make fun of received. We say it's the closest
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  city to Africa because it's right that tip of Brazil on the right. That's
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  where we are. But we have beautiful ocean warm, which is something I
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  really miss guy, because here in the West Coast, you know how it
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  is. You look at the ocean, it's beautiful, but you can even
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  touch it because it's freezing. Yeah, so I live in Portland now on
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  the West coast. Let me ask him, are you able to adjust your
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  screen so that it doesn't cut off the top of your head. There,
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  Yeah, there we go, yeah, perfect, yeah, perfect. So
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  all right, so you know, last time we talked a lot, but
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  give give our listeners a thumbnail sketch of how this started. For you.
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  Well, it started with the death of my father, which was something very
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  unexpected, and not only his death but suicide itself. For me, it
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  was the unknown. It was something that happened in movies or with someone very
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  distant. I had never lost anyone to suicide, not friends, family members,
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  not that we know, because as we know, there's so much silence
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  right when suicide happens. But I had not experienced it. So to me,
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  it was something so shocking. When I lost my dad, I just
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  came to a place of confusion or I didn't know why it happened, and
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  I kind of jumped into it with full like, with full force. I
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  wanted to understand. I needed That's how my brain works, that's how I
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  deal with pain. I need to understand it. So I started reading compulsively,
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  compulsively and talking to family members looking for support group. There was nothing
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  in Brazil. Just to give you an idea, when I decided to write
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  the book and I published three years after the death of my father. It
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  was the first book written for the general public in Brazil about lost I mean,
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  that's how jist at the time. I was a journalist at the time.
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  Yes, yes, that's what I what I did so, and actually
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  I did that because I wanted to fill that gap, because I wanted information,
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  I wanted answers, and I couldn't find it in Brazil. So but
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  that's but that's what started the confusion in my mind. The hundreds of questions,
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  some of them never get answers, and that's one of the hardest things
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  with suicide grief because you just have to sit with the unknown for so long.
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  But that's yeah, that's how it began. Did you find out why
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  your father I mean suiciety? Yes, I did, and if you,
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  if you allow me, guy, because I really worry about language when it
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  comes to suicide, we avoid saying commit I know this is general public.
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  We all say it, and sometimes I catch myself doing the same because committees
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  associated with the stigma and it's associated with crime. So you commit a crime,
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  so we try to say when they when they attempted suicide or completed suicide,
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  so yeah, so I did, I did, I did, and
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  I do believe in the value of knowledge and understanding. Guy, I really
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  did because it helped me. And I see in support groups. I facilitate
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  support groups for those who lost loved ones to suicide, and I, as
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  you know, I have a podcast and I just today this morning, I
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  was interviewing someone who lost her husband to suicide. And it really makes a
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  difference to bringing clarity and understanding and compassion when you try to understand what leads
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  someone to suicide. Of course that's individual, but there are some things that
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  are common to that, like the lack of hope. We all have problems,
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  we all go through crisis throughout our lives, but the moment you lose
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  hope that that's going to change that that can be a huge trigger. So
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  when I looked back at the history of my father and what was going on
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  at the time, So just to give you an idea, he had divorced
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  my mom, I don't know, four years before he died, so that
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  loss was huge for him, and they'd been married for thirty some ten years.
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  He had re engaged in a new relationship with kids. She had kids,
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  so he felt responsible for him. It was like beginning a new family,
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  right, So he and my father had this huge sense of responsibility.
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  He was a family man and at the time he was sixty eight when he
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  started the relationship, was like sixty six, but then two small kids that
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  he felt that he needed to, you know, to raise them and to
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  support them, including financially. He was having a lot of financial difficulty at
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  the time. So the relationship, I don't know if it was good for
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  him or not, but there was just so much And again he had opened
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  a like a new business. It didn't work out. He used all his
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  savings on that. He was having a lot of financial issues and that was
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  really really hard on him. So when you put that all together, I
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  actually saw that there was I could tell that there was. I was helping
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  him, like even financially and trying to organize his life and everything. And
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  I could tell at the time because it's so hard for us to see the
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  signs, but at the time I could tell that he was struggling a lot.
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  And I actually did approach him and I asked him to see a psychiatrist,
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  as Dad, you need to see a professional. I mean, I'm
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  trying to help you, but this is beyond my capacity. And he did.
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  He actually did go see a doctor. He was diagnosed with depression.
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  But you know, a proud man, militaryman, used to be in the
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  army, his generation, you know how that generation deals with mental mental illness
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  and this kind of challenge. He never took. He never did the treatment,
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  never went back to the doctor, never took the medication. So when
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  you put that all together, and now looking back, but at the time
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  I needed to understand, I really needed answers, and that's very common with
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  us low survivors. Well I would think so, I mean, I can't
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  imagine going through that and experiencing what you did, but it would seem to
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  me like, just as a human being, how did this happen? How
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  could this happen? Let me let me ask you something. You mentioned your
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  podcast which is called Understand Suicide. We'll have that linked up here at the
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  show outs page at the Trauma Divers podcast dot com. And I kind of
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  feel this is this is kind of a controversial topic, maybe the controversial question.
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  But is suicide ever the answer quote unquote and is it? For one?
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  Is it is like you know, there there are uh some thoughts like,
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  well, who am I to tell this person not to yeah, complete
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  suicide. Yeah, you know, what are your thoughts on this? Yeah,
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  that's a tough one. Yeah, because as a survivor and as someone
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  who works on suicide prevention, I deeply believe in research shows too that most
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  of the times you can help so and for them, guy, when you
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  ask me, is it every the answer? Certainly for them their mindset at
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  the time when they attempt or complete suicide, that's the only answer. And
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  that's what we call the constriction or the tunnel e vision, right that that's
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  the only least thing that you see as a way out I try. And
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  this goes with the sense of responsibility that many of us have after they die.
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  We think about all the what ifs, Right, what could I have
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  done? Or how come I didn't see? What if I had done this?
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  What if I had listened? I have my what ifs. Everybody does.
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  Even when you don't feel guilty for the death itself, you feel guilty
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  about something like the relationship you had, for example. But I feel that
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  someone's life is not your responsibility. My responsibility is only for my life.
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  And of course I'm not saying that you can be a jerk and you can
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  be abusive to someone doesn't matter. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying
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  that when it comes to guilty and when it comes to suicide, we should
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  never feel responsible for that death because at the end of the day, the
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  decision to be alive is hours alone. So that's how I approach responsibility and
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  how I approach Is it ever the answer? I can't answer that right now
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  in my life, it's not. And I understand and I know by fact,
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  by research, by science and my experience with it, that most suicides
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  can be prevented. And that's how I approach it. Right. We mentioned
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  the construction, and I think with the understanding that each case is different,
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  people are different, of course, but I think it's fair to say that
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  in many instances when people are thinking about committing suicide, there in such a
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  restricted, constricted frame of reference, so depressed, that is, the depression
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  is completely altering their frame of reference. How can you make what's considered a
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  healthy right choice in that moment? It? Yeah, so right, I
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  think in one in one sense, I'm feeling like that that's not a healthy
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  choice. You can't make a healthy choice from that perspective, right, YEA
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  what is your goal with your work and with the podcast obviously called Understand Suicide?
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  But what are you trying to help people with? Two things? But
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  before I talk about that, you were talking about depression, and I think
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  it's important to say that we used to have a number that we use for
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  many years the ninety percent or over ninety percent of cases of suicide were related
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  to mental illness and especially depression. That's the number one, right, But
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  we know that that's not true anymore. In the US, for example,
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  we know that more than half of the suicides are not related to a mental
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  illness or a diagnosis per se. So it's it's crisis. It's that constriction
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  that we're talking about. Sometimes it can be impulsive, but just saying that
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  because we think that, oh, we feel depressed, maybe you, of
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  course you are at more risk, but most people with depression don't even think
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  about attempting suicide. So I just wanted to come right right, But there
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  you mentioned the commonality which is what hopelessness. Yes, right, and that
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  is oftentimes attributed to one of the elements of depression. But it's so is
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  it fair to say that most people who or many slash most people who do
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  commit suicide, are hopeless most of them? Yes, hopelessness. The other
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  one that's very common is the sense of being a burden to others. And
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  this is great for us to explore because it goes against this misconception. I
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  know that there is this useless dichotomy of oh, is this an of bravery
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  or is it being a coward? Right? Oh, they're so selfish.
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  It's quite the opposite those who And we hear that from people who of course
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  survived an attempt, that they talk about how I felt. And we see
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  that in letters. Today was interviewing this woman who lost her husband and he
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  sent her a text and he posted on Facebook, yeah, saying goodbye to
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  his friends. And when you read it, it's all about being a burden.
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  They do believe that their burden, and it's not a selfish act.
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  It's actually then believing that your life would be better without them. And I
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  did that. I saw that myself. My dad sent me a letter two
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  days before he died. So he sent me a letter I received two days
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  after he died, and that was the content of the letter. It was
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  all about I know it's going to be hard now, but you'll be better
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  off without me, they we live. That's part of the constriction, that's
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  part of the mindset that they have, and that the way they are at
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  the moment, at that moment. My understanding is that when people say it's
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  selfish, is that they're not thinking about how it's going to impact other people.
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  Right. But so, okay, so you're My question was to you,
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  like, what do you? Yeah, what do you? What did
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  you go with your work? Two things? I work on prevention with families
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  and loved ones who lost someone to suicide. And when I say that's prevention,
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  is that because all of us, if we lose someone to suicide,
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  you have a higher risk of attempting suicide or dying by suicide. That's a
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  risk factor. So when you work with families and loved ones, you are
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  actually preventing suicide. I want to bring them comfort. I want to bring
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  them stories and different experiences. And that's why I interviewed so many people who
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  lost loved ones to suicide, because they always bring a mess of hope.
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  Okay, here's how I dealt with it. Look at me. Is I
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  was where you are a few years ago. This is where I am right
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  now. I work with support groups they're great. I honestly believe it's the
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  best thing for someone who lost a loved one to suicide is to go there
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  and to see they're not alone. So I want to bring comfort to those
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  who lost loved ones. I want to bring them a message of hope.
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  I want to empower them with tools and how that you know, they can
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  help themselves and how they can go through the grief process and journey. But
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  also on the other side, I want to help those who are and that
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  with that mindset, the constricted mindset, this is the only way out.
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  I want to talk to you and tell you know there are other ways.
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  He's what we can do to help. So I work on those two,
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  on those two areas. Yeah, it sounds incredible. The support groups sound
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  incredible. Your podcast sounds amazing. I want to get into that. But
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  as I'm thinking, as you're talking, I'm thinking about the suicide on a
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  continuing sense. You know, on this end you're not thinking about it at
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  all. On this end, you're getting ready to attempt. Is it a
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  slow progression? I mean, I guess it can be many things, but
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  you know, when someone is moving along that progression becoming more and more constructed
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  in their thought becoming maybe more and more feeling as though they're a burden.
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  How do we see that? How do we how does one recognize that?
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  How do you help? Can you help? You can always help? And
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  that's a that's a wonderful question because we tend to think that suicide is like
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  a flip, right, you're well, something happens, the trigger happens,
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  you die, and that's not it. And this is one of the best
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  ways and approaches to help someone who is suicidal is to try to see where
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  they are. So I'll just go through this continuum that you that you mentioned,
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  so you're okay, right, and then you start having suicidal thoughts for
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  whatever reason, the progression goes suicidal thoughts suicidal ideation. Even those who have
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  adeation doesn't mean they have intent. They're not. They don't really want to
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  do that. The ideation is there, and I've interviewed you can see on
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  my podcast people who have adiation dealt with suicide ideation all their lives and still
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  do. But they never they never move towards intention. This is what I'm
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  going to do. Differ between thoughts and ideation. For people, ideation is
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  more frequent it's like there all the time. It's it's it's one of the
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  answers if I have this problem, I have this, and this and this.
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  Suicide is another one. It's always there. So it's not one moment
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  in your life when you're a teenager struggling, you broke up a relationship and
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  you thought about suicide or you thought about never waking up. That's kind of
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  a passive kind of suicidal thought. So it's something that happened or maybe happened
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  twice in your life. Ideation is something that's always there, and some people
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  really struggle with that. It's it's that voice, the internal voice repeating that
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  that's an option. How about this as an option? So that's the ideation,
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  and then you move towards intention, So okay, I get it,
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  that's an option. How can I do that? I want to do that.
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  That's that's ideation with intent, and then you go towards a tent or
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  planning. Right, Okay, the next phase is okay, I'm going to
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  plan it, and the next one would be attempt and completion. So that's
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  the full continuum. So how do you find out where they are? You
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  ask said, listen, are you right now? I see you struggling.
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  Are you thinking about suicide? This is something that happens frequently. How many
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  times does it happened? Is it a constant in your life? When did
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  it start? So you just start asking questions with compassion and compassionate curiosity.
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  That's how I call it. It's not because you want, you know,
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  you want to to ask these invasive questions now you you want to spot where
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  they are and if they say yeah, yeah, yeah, it's always there,
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  it's really hard right now? So what have you? Have you thought
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  about it? I mean how you would do? Do you have any plans?
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  You just ask you go keep in mind or continuum and you ask these
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  questions, you know, have you planned with have you planned doing it?
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  And then you can identity. They will be honest. I mean if you
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  if you ask with compassion and with no judgment, no must so shoulds?
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  Or or how can you? Or anything like that, with compassion and without
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  judgment, they will tell you. And my experience guy, is that they
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  want to tell people, They want to get that out, but they're so
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  afraid of the reaction because it's a scary thing and it's natural that it's scary.
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  No one wants to have that conversation, So I try to identify where
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  they are because depending on where they are, there are different things that you
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  can do right. And the one very important thing is if you can,
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  don't take it all upon yourself to do that, evolve more people with of
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  course their consent. Ask them who else can we bring into this to help
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  you? It can be professional help, it can be a friend, a
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  family member, a teacher, or whoever you can think of. But yeah,
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  it's important to see where they are so you can really provide help,
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  right. And of course their level of intent is huge on that. And
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  it's one thing to for a therapist to be doing this, it's another thing
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  for a family member hard it can be really really challenged. So let's say
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  it is a family member who's inquiring of another family member or a friend,
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  and I think your suggestion to bring other people on board with consent is a
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  really useful one. It's about getting in there and like you said, being
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  compassionate and curious. Yeah, yeah, it's so tough, isn't it.
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  The one thing that I believe it's helpful to think about if you have someone
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  that you know who is struggling maybe with mental illness or just having a personal
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  crisis, whatever that is. I think before you have that conversation, you
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  have to sit with yourself. That's very important. Ask yourself, what are
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  my views on suicide or are my biases on suicide? How will I react
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  to it? If they say yes, I'm thinking about suicide. Am I
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  ready for that? That's very important because that's going to be so transparent when
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  you have It's going to be in your body language and your facial expression,
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  in the way that you push away if they say yes. So get ready
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  for the conversation. Be mindful about that, being mindful about yourself and how
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  you may react. Are you ready? And you may come to the conclusion
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  I can't do it. Bring somebody else. This is tough. This is
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  hardcore. I know even I talk about this all the time, and now
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  I'm having goosebumps. You talked about biases. Talk more about that. What
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  are some of the biases we as a culture or culturally people people experience or
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  feel? Well, the main one is it's selfish? Right do you think
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  that that suicide is a selfish act? Because if you do, here's how
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  this conversation is going to go. How can you do that to your family?
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  How can you even think about that? If the person says yes,
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  right, do you think that's going to be helpful? Now you have to
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  ask yourself those hard, hard questions. How do I see it? Especially
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  if you have a history of suicide in your life? Have you had suicidal
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  loss? Well, let's say you are the husband or the wife or the
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  partner. The first thing that comes comes to you is this is suicide is
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  a message about a relationship too. That's how it feels to us. I
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  was not enough. My love for him or for her was just not enough.
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  How could he do that to me? So how can you even especially
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  if you have kids, think about your kids? So all this kind of
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  reaction can come out if you if you're not ready for that, if you're
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  not really mindfully present for that person, it's not about you. This is
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  the moment when you have to kind of put your biases in a drawer,
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  close it, shut, breathing, and try to put your try to understand
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  they're coming from, because that's where the answers will come from. Oh,
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  I'm feeling alone. I'm so isolated. I don't have anybody in my life.
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  Let's work on that or I was just fired from my job, which
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  for many of us is a huge loss. Right again, it's a message
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  about ourselves. Well, okay, so let's work on that. When you
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  ask the questions, you're going to see some of the answers on how to
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  help too, because they will, they will be will believe me, they
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  want someone to listen. They're just afraid of it most of the times.
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  The other bias that we have it's a myth about suicide is if you talk
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  about it, going to put the idea in their heads or get about that.
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  It's the opposite. That's a myth about suicide. And I love to
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  break that myth and bring it down because it's the opposite. They want to
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  talk about it, but they don't know how. They're afraid of your reaction,
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  and they are of course all these ultural things that come up and make
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  it really hard, and they're afraid that you're going to maybe hospitalize them,
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  right because you're not ready to really listen, and it may be identified that
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  it's just a thought that just came up. It's not about intent, it's
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  not about planning. So that's why it's so important to know where they are
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  too. Or let's just pause here for a second to thank our sponsors.
• 26:26
  All Right, we are back. You mentioned that, Correct me if I'm
• 26:33
  wrong here. You said that oftentimes it's about relationship too. What did you
• 26:38
  mean by that? No, No, I think that for us when we
• 26:42
  lose someone to suicide, the way that it lends on us is he sent
• 26:48
  to the world a message about us, about our relationship that I was not
• 26:53
  enough. That's how it feels, but not necessarily true because there is volition
• 27:02
  involved. Right, It's very different from any other kinds of death. He
• 27:07
  chose to do that, or she chose to do that. Because all of
• 27:11
  this was just not enough, people are going to think, and people think.
• 27:15
  This woman that I interviewed today, she was telling me about how hard
• 27:19
  it was for her to be blamed of the suicide. It happened so often
• 27:26
  with the partner left. How can you not see it? How could you
• 27:30
  not see it? How come you didn't help? How come you didn't tell
• 27:33
  us? Or maybe you had a fight. It was your fault. She
• 27:36
  had a fight with him one day before, and that's all they remember all
• 27:41
  the time they were together. It's erased because we think the first question we
• 27:47
  ask is why. The second one is who is responsible? We don't even
• 27:52
  notice because we search for answers. That's what humans do. We need understanding,
• 27:57
  We need to have answers for things. But unfortunately the answer is not
• 28:03
  always responsible. No, the choice was his or hers. There might be
• 28:07
  some circumstances, like relationship problems that they were having, or they just got
• 28:12
  divorced, but that doesn't mean that it was somebody else's fault. One of
• 28:21
  the things that make this so uh, even you, I mean you interview
• 28:27
  people, you You're like, I'm lost for words. Well, it's just
• 28:33
  it's, Paula. It's so outside of my realm of understanding. I don't
• 28:40
  know anyone who has has has completed suicide, but it's obviously such a final
• 28:51
  act that it's hard not to think, you know, it's hard not to
• 28:57
  feel like, what could I have done? Is there anything I could?
• 29:02
  How you get? How does one get all the way to that point?
• 29:07
  You know, without what anyone else seeing or helping or it's just uh.
• 29:14
  And it also just feels for, you know, for someone to complete suicide,
• 29:23
  it almost feels like it goes against our drive to live. Of course,
• 29:32
  well that's exactly what it is. It totally does it goes against our
• 29:36
  most basic h need, right, our most basic instinct, the instinct of
• 29:42
  preservation, self preservation. And I'm telling the guy, I've been studying this
• 29:48
  for almost twenty years now. I've been working with all these people, I
• 29:52
  interview people, I wrote a book, all of that, and I still
• 29:56
  when someone Oh died, say why on earth can you die? How?
• 30:00
  I still come up with, Okay, let's go back, because of course
• 30:06
  it's it's unnatural and it's shocked. Yeah, it's unnatural for us. So
• 30:11
  I get it. I get it, and I still feel it. But
• 30:15
  how couldn't couldn't they see that there was another answer that maybe if they waited
• 30:21
  a little bit more, or maybe and just for that. I have a
• 30:25
  friend of mine, and you know, teenagers, you know, as you
• 30:29
  know, brain is not developed. So very close friend fifteen years old.
• 30:33
  The kid was one of those brilliant kids, A straight a's, a great
• 30:38
  athlete. Everything was perfect. He had a girlfriend, a good relationship,
• 30:42
  had many friends. Until one day that he went out with friends, he
• 30:48
  drank a little bit more than normal and when he came back to I think
• 30:52
  to school, they I don't know if they did a test or something,
• 30:57
  but he was kicked out of the team. Suspend it not kicked out,
• 31:02
  but suspended. That's what it took. Came back home, killed himself.
• 31:07
  Oh my gosh. And still every time I talk to her and said,
• 31:11
  yeah, how can you ever, how can you ever understand? It's very
• 31:17
  different from someone like my dad. I see all the signs now, I
• 31:21
  see all the difficulties. I see all the things that I found out about
• 31:23
  his childhood after he died, and I get it. But there are some
• 31:29
  like that that are out of impulse. It's impulse. And no, you
• 31:33
  will always say why how can you? And there's nothing wrong with that question
• 31:40
  as long as you try to put yourself in their shoes and you understand,
• 31:45
  and you try to dig out the context in which it happened. Don't go
• 31:49
  and jump to the first question. I mean, who is responsible? Right?
• 31:55
  Where is the responsibility? Because they are not here? The truth is
• 31:57
  they're not here. They're ever say you never You never really know, And
• 32:01
  and that's one of the things, the hardest things for us is you will
• 32:05
  never get the true answer, the one it's all understanding. Uh. You
• 32:12
  you go back and you think of the situation, and there you know,
• 32:15
  sometimes family history, dynamics, all of that. But still you will never
• 32:20
  know because you're not them. Is there? I mean, is there always
• 32:28
  a reason? Whether I mean there's right? Yeah, there is a trigger,
• 32:32
  No, a triggers, But I'm talking about a reason that someone does
• 32:36
  it. Right. A trigger is something that leads someone to complete it.
• 32:40
  But is it safe to say that there's a reason why people can suicide or
• 32:47
  completely? There is? Yeah, there is a reason in their minds.
• 32:52
  I can read to you. I have, I believe I have the note.
• 32:57
  Yes, let me find here the note that this person wrote on Facebook
• 33:02
  and we'll get there. So he's what he wrote. Let me just find
• 33:08
  here the last the nut ya he didn't laugh? Family just a minute because
• 33:15
  I here. I'm so grateful for the friends and family that I got to
• 33:20
  spend time with throughout my life. Thank you all. Please remember the good
• 33:24
  parts about me and forgive the bad part. The truth is I have always
• 33:30
  been broken. I've been broken for a long time. I always try to
• 33:35
  focus on the good and to be happy, but I could never quite get
• 33:38
  it right. I know I'm hurting a lot of people for doing this,
• 33:43
  and I cannot express enough how sorry I am for that. So this is
• 33:49
  when you read this, this is a person who was in profound pain.
• 33:53
  But was it something that happened the day before. No, he says it
• 33:59
  himself, I have always been broken. So when you yeah, it's yeah.
• 34:06
  It's the sense of it was never going to work out. I tried
• 34:10
  so many many times. That's what it is. People who have a past
• 34:15
  history they've never made maybe never try to process that and never never search for
• 34:22
  help. Maybe they overworked all their lives or got into substance abuse to numb
• 34:27
  their pain. It's so many times, that's what that's the reason. It's
• 34:31
  the sense of brokenness for him. So when you say, is that a
• 34:36
  reason or there was a trigger? Yes, But the reason is he always
• 34:39
  felt hopeless and it just got to a point where he you know, when
• 34:45
  he reached the limit. It's heartbreaking, it really is. You mentioned.
• 34:52
  I'll just remind everyone I'm speaking with Polfontanelle. Her book is called Understanding Suicide,
• 35:00
  Living with Loss haths to Prevention, and her podcast is called Understand Suicide.
• 35:09
  You mentioned the benefits of many benefits of support groups. Talk a little
• 35:16
  bit about that. Oh, support groups are really magical. I had someone
• 35:24
  the lass not two to my I do. One of the support groups is
• 35:29
  monthly and that's usually how they are. And the support groups for whom or
• 35:35
  for suicide loss only okay, for grief suicide grief, so only people who
• 35:39
  lost someone. And in my group sometimes I change, but right now,
• 35:45
  most of them are very recent, so within the last year, two years,
• 35:49
  one of them three months ago, so very recent losses. And I
• 35:52
  remember one of the women who came in. She sat down and I always
• 35:58
  say, in the beginning, you don't feel like you have to talk.
• 36:01
  Some people here came to talk. They needs to process something, but it's
• 36:06
  totally fine if you just want to listen. That's healing too, because it
• 36:09
  helps with not feeling alone. And I remember someone I asked her to I
• 36:15
  don't know, I just talk to her and she said, sorry, I
• 36:19
  can't talk, and said that's fine. So the next month but she listened,
• 36:22
  she stayed there for the whole for the whole session. And then the
• 36:24
  next next month she came and she talked, so to me that this is
• 36:30
  such a great relief because they're moving right, The grief is moving, the
• 36:35
  healing process is in movement. So support groups are great because half half of
• 36:44
  the pain. Doctor Edward S. Nightman always said that my mentor part of
• 36:47
  it, half of it, half of it is the pain in suicide.
• 36:51
  Half of it is the pain, and half of it is being alone with
• 36:54
  it. So you come and you see, wow, I'm not going through
• 36:59
  I'm not crazy. I thought I was. I thought I was going crazy,
• 37:02
  But now I listen to these people, everybody saying these things, and
• 37:05
  I identify so much. I'm not alone. But it also brings you hope
• 37:10
  because you see you come in like this. One of these ladies that came,
• 37:15
  she lost her brother to suicide three months ago, but she will look
• 37:21
  at someone who lost a brother to suicide five months ago, and you see
• 37:24
  it gives you hope to say, wow, maybe I'll get there. And
• 37:30
  of course it's a very safe space. We always say you can curse,
• 37:36
  you can cry, you do do you do your grief. Nobody here will
• 37:40
  judge you. And that's one of the preparations that I do every session and
• 37:45
  say, we're not here to judge. Everybody here can do whatever they want
• 37:50
  to talk about in whatever language they want to talk. We're not gonna say
• 37:52
  don't do it, no should So this is a place to be yourself,
• 37:58
  so it's a very safe place for you to say I'm angry, I'm really
• 38:04
  angry less actually less two weeks ago, we had a session and it was
• 38:08
  all of it. That's what came up anger everybody once one talked about it,
• 38:14
  because it's the hardest thing guy to talk about someone you loved who died
• 38:17
  and say I'm so pissed, I'm so angry at them. And that's one
• 38:22
  of the differences in suicide grief because with other kinds of grief like disease an
• 38:28
  accident, you don't feel angry at them, right, I feel so many
• 38:30
  other emotions, but angry is not the end. It's very common with suicide
• 38:36
  loss. So once one brought it up, everybody is just joined because it's
• 38:42
  hard you do. You don't tell your best friend I'm so angry at him
• 38:45
  or at her. It's something that people don't How can you be angry they
• 38:50
  died, right, It's it's really hard to talk about it. So support
• 38:53
  groups are great for that. You know, the space that you don't find
• 38:58
  with your loved ones and friends. You can come here and feel safe to
• 39:01
  talk about your loss without being judged as you're as you're talking I'm thinking about,
• 39:10
  you know, all those people sitting in that group and just wondering.
• 39:20
  You know, I'm thinking to myself if I'd experienced something like that. It's
• 39:24
  almost you can't help, but wonder, you know, did I reach out
• 39:29
  to that person enough, you know, And here here I am, sitting
• 39:34
  in this grief group wishing I had done it. It almost it's like the
• 39:40
  other side of the coin is we need to connect with each other, you
• 39:45
  know, now before it's too late, because we know we don't know what's
• 39:51
  going on with people. No we don't, we don't, and we are
• 39:55
  not ready to deal with uncomfortable emotions. Right. Grief it's about oh,
• 40:02
  I'm sorry for your loss, and then you disappear. It's about getting over
• 40:06
  it right. You get what three days of mourning or something when you when
• 40:12
  you lose someone, you can miss your work. But it's it's all about
• 40:15
  moving on. It's about moving on right, get get rid of the stuff.
• 40:21
  So it's grief. Grief is really the way we sit in our culture
• 40:25
  is not helpful at all, not at all. And when it comes to
• 40:30
  suicide, it's even worse, but it comes with even more silence and weight
• 40:35
  and blame. And guilt. When you were talking about what I'm here,
• 40:38
  I am sitting and thinking I should have reached out more. But here it
• 40:43
  is you are in a group that everybody's thinking that. I have never met
• 40:49
  anyone who doesn't deal with some form of guilt. As I said, not
• 40:54
  necessarily with the guilt for the death. But I could have been a better
• 41:00
  son, Why could have been a bed There is always the what if?
• 41:04
  What if I had done this, or what if I had done that?
• 41:07
  But I love that you say that, Yes, you know, look at
• 41:12
  your loved ones. I mean, really, look, pay attention. Someone
• 41:16
  is more isolated, They you know, moody, maybe they're different. They
• 41:21
  just seem off. You know, we say that a lot. The person
• 41:24
  just seems off. Ask just sit down and ask, because we don't know.
• 41:30
  We're all struggling with something, right, But you don't know until you
• 41:35
  ask. How you know? We talked about your own father's suicide and the
• 41:45
  work you're you're doing, and PAULA, yeah, I do talk to a
• 41:49
  lot of people, but this is so freaking intense. How do you how
• 41:58
  do you walk with this? How do you do this journey? How do
• 42:01
  you manage this? By leading the life I preach guy. I believe in
• 42:10
  self care. I believe in finding joy in your life, little bits of
• 42:15
  joy every day. And I one hundred percent believe that the best thing for
• 42:23
  all this feeling of isolation that we have is relationships. I see friends every
• 42:30
  week. I meet with them every week. I meet my sisters every week.
• 42:35
  I am always in touch with my loved ones. I believe in the
• 42:37
  power the heal. We get broken by relationships, but we get healed by
• 42:43
  them, So surround yourself with people who love you. I believe in that
• 42:47
  and I live it. I do a lot of self care in terms of
• 42:52
  joy, and I craft a lot. I'm a crafter. I craft every
• 42:57
  single day. I take break, I take care of my health. I
• 43:01
  do exercise four or five times a week. So I really lived the life
• 43:07
  that when I talk to my clients and said, listen, it works.
• 43:10
  Take good care. You have to take care of If I don't. If
• 43:14
  I don't take care of myself, I could never do this work. It's
• 43:16
  too much. And I have friends who do the same kind of work.
• 43:22
  Not many, because as you know, even clinicians do not want to do
• 43:25
  this work. But I have a couple of friends that I reach out,
• 43:29
  Wow, this today was really some days and really hard and say well,
• 43:32
  let's just talk about it. Let's go for a walk or for a walk.
• 43:36
  That's as simple as that and it will help you. So I take
• 43:40
  very good care. My husband makes fun of me because I'm always coming into
• 43:45
  the house and I go I need to relax a little bit, and he
• 43:49
  always looked at me, said, you're really good at that. I'm always
• 43:54
  taking breaks, so but I have to. I have to because it's important.
• 44:00
  Otherwise I could not do what I do. Well, I'm so glad
• 44:06
  you joined me back on the podcast, and I'm as I as I began
• 44:13
  talking to you, as quickly reminded of why I wanted you back on this
• 44:15
  podcast. You're incredible, Paula. Really it is such a heart breaking topic
• 44:23
  and that you're reading of that note was heartwrenching. My god. Yeah,
• 44:29
  but the work you do is so inspiring and I'm just happy there are people
• 44:37
  like you out there who were doing it. How can people get in contact
• 44:42
  with you? Well, you can send me. You can see my website
• 44:45
  understand suicide dot com and you have a contact tab, but just send me
• 44:51
  an email to Understand Suicide at gmail dot com. I think that's the best.
• 44:57
  Now, your support groups for grief are they online? Person? Yeah?
• 45:05
  Okay, so if you live in Portland, okay, so welcome to
• 45:08
  They sound amazing. Tack me and I will add you to the to the
• 45:13
  group. Okay, Paula, thank you so much. Thank you, guys,
• 45:15
  thank you so much. Because you know, not everybody wants to tackle
• 45:19
  the subject, so I'm really glad that you you did. Thank you for
• 45:22
  that. You're welcome. I appreciate you. To take care. Bye,
• 45:27
  Thank you.