Latest / Chip Ingram Sermon Podcast / Softening Hearts with Spiritual Conversations

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Softening Hearts with Spiritual Conversations · Chip Ingram Sermon Podcast

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Today on Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram.
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Have you ever heard of a soul plate before? In
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the construction world, it's a small but essential
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piece of wood that sits on top of a home's foundation.
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Without it, you couldn't build the floors or
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the walls above. Today, we're going to learn
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about the vital little step that can connect
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our friends and family to the anchoring power
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of the gospel. You're not going to want to miss
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today's message. I'm Dave Drewy, and this is
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Living on the Edge. Today, Chip Ingram welcomes
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back guest teacher and friend Aaron Pierce. Aaron
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leads a global ministry called Steiger International,
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spending decades reaching secular, non -religious
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young people all over the world with the gospel.
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Today, Aaron shows us how to move a conversation
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from small talk to something spiritual, the same
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conversations you already have every day about
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work, family, or life in general. hold way more
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spiritual potential than most of us ever realize.
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Now here's Aaron with today's message titled,
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Softening Hearts with Spiritual Conversations.
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Today, we're going to get into the idea of how
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to start a spiritual conversation as the first
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step towards introducing people to Jesus. So
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the question then is, what is a spiritual conversation?
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What is the difference between a spiritual conversation
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and a gospel conversation? So a gospel conversation
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is the biblical narrative of creation, fall,
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and redemption that is centered around the life
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and death and resurrection of Jesus. That's the
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gospel conversation. That's the gospel message.
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A spiritual conversation, on the other hand,
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is presuppositional, which means that it addresses
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the underlying assumptions that the gospel is
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built on. And so the key to effective communication
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is that we need to know our audience's assumptions
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so that when I communicate, I'm either challenging
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or building on their assumptions. So let's watch
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this video as an example, and then we'll dig
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into how that looks and how we apply that in
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our life. So take a look. Time is a strange thing.
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We measure it. We savor it. Most of the time
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we waste it. Sometimes it goes by slowly, but
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more often than not, it flies by. I think of
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my own life. Every day I wake up, drink coffee,
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have meetings, chase my son, sleep, repeat. I'll
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have the thought, oh, it's Monday. And suddenly,
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it's Monday again. But then I think about all
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that has happened in the last year, or the last
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ten years, and it's a lot. But then there are
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those things that make time stop. Like when someone
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you love dies. Though we know death is a part
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of life, it's always such a shock when it happens.
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But why? Why does death shock us? I think it's
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because deep down, we don't believe that life
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should end. We feel like we should go on forever.
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Death feels like a defect, so we work furiously
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to fix it. But despite all of our creams and
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pills and surgeries and cures, we can't seem
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to stop the decay. Maybe this deep longing isn't
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about our bodies and this life. Maybe it's about
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what comes next. Every tribe and every nation
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throughout history has conceived of a life beyond
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this world, beyond our bodies in time, a place
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where we will go on forever. Maybe this is a
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myth or wishful thinking, or perhaps it points
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to something that binds us all together. Maybe
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we dream of a world beyond time. because we were
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never meant to die. All right. So that video
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right there, that's not the gospel, right? That's
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not the gospel. But what that does is it gets
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at some assumptions and it connects with people
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at a place where I can begin to have conversations
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that build the foundations for the gospel, right?
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Because a lot of people... They struggle with
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the idea of death. They struggle with the idea
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of what is next. And so this is something that
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allows you to engage in a conversation that opens
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the way for the gospel. And so this is actually
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part of a new tool that we have called Spiritual
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Conversations for the Non -Religious. That's
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actually the first video in a series of spiritual
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conversations that you can go through with someone.
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It's like a small group for non -Christians and
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that you watch a video and then you have a series
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of questions that you answer. So again, people
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are skeptical, but they're also open to spirituality.
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Like that's the cultural moment that we're in.
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And often Christians fail to realize that when
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they share the gospel, when we share the gospel,
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we are drawing on assumptions that secular people
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do not hold to be true. And so that's why we're
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not able to connect. So, for example, consider
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the classic model of the four spiritual laws,
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which is a kind of a classic model of evangelism.
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Now, let me be clear. This is true. This is gospel
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truth. Number one, God loves you and offers a
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wonderful plan for your life. Number two. All
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of us sin, and all our sin has separated us from
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God. Number three, Jesus Christ is God's only
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provision for our sin. Through him, we can know
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and experience God's love and plan for our life.
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And four, we must individually receive Jesus
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Christ as Savior and Lord, and then we can know
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and experience God's love and plan for our lives.
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That is the four spiritual laws. But the key
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here is that this makes a number of critical
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assumptions. Embedded into that is assumptions.
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Assumptions about the existence of a relational
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God, that there's an objective moral framework,
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or that there's a transcendent purpose for your
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life. All these assumptions are built into the
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communication of the four spiritual laws, but
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none of these assumptions are universally accepted
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in a post -Christian culture. And so the purpose
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of a spiritual conversation, therefore, is to
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set the foundations. That we can build the message
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of the cross on. And that we can remove maybe
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some intellectual barriers and move from the
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secular to the spiritual. And so there's really
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three types of conversations that you have when
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you engage someone. It's a friendship conversation.
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It's a spiritual conversation. And then a gospel
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conversation. Of course, the purpose of a friendship
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conversation is to build that deep relational
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connection and the trust to speak. And the purpose
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of the gospel conversation is to introduce people
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to Jesus and the message of the cross. You know,
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it used to be appropriate in the past to go from
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like friendship to gospel. Today, we've got to
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contextualize it by going through spiritual conversations.
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Like that's the bridge that we've got to go through
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to go from a friendship to the gospel. And so
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sometimes people reject that. Because, you know,
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in the name of kind of God's sovereignty and
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being unashamed, I'm just going to preach the
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gospel and however it lands, that's on them.
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And I would challenge us that we should not pit
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our dependence on God and his sovereignty against
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our attempts to be understood. It's not one or
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the other. We absolutely need God's power and
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we need him to speak and we need him to open
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people's hearts. But we should also seek to be
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understood in a relevant way. And that, frankly,
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we're constantly doing that. Every time you open
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your mouth, you're speaking in a way in which
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you're trying to contextualize ideas, right?
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So we do that all the time anyway. We're trying
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to get people to build a bridge from friendship
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to the gospel. And we're going through the lens
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of the spiritual conversation. Now, this is a
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helpful framework, but this isn't perfectly linear
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when you're talking to someone, right? Like it
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tends to all kind of mix together. So you don't
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always have a perfectly clear distinction, but
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it's a framework that helps you think, right?
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Because what happens is you'll be developing
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a relationship with someone, you're having spiritual
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conversations, and now all of a sudden you're
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talking to them about Jesus. And all of a sudden
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you realize, whoa, there's something like a thing
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that they believe that is standing in the way
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of them understanding the message across. So
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I got to go. back to a spiritual conversation.
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I need to challenge something that they believe
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about truth or morality, whatever, something
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that stands in the way. Other times you'll be
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engaging someone and all of a sudden maybe you
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hit on a nerve, like a personal pain or history
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that they have, and it evokes a really emotional
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reaction. And you got to go all the way back
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to friendship, right? And just... Pause and go
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way back to friendship and begin to build that
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trust so that you can speak into their life.
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So this isn't a formula, but it's a framework
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for understanding that when I'm engaging someone,
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I'm either, you know, developing a relationship.
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I'm building the assumptions that will lead to
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the cross or I'm introducing someone to Jesus.
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And that, again, that kind of tends to go back
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and forth. So how do we then start these spiritual
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conversations? I'm going to go through some key
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principles in doing that. The first thing we
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have to understand is that we're not actually
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doing intellectual or apologetic work. This is
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actually first and foremost a spiritual issue
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and that we require the supernatural work of
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the Holy Spirit for it to be effective. And the
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reason is because 2 Corinthians 4 says the God
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of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers.
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It's a spiritual blindness issue. And so we're
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dealing with a culture and a generation that
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is spiritually deceived. And so it doesn't matter
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how many times I point over at that direction
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and ask you to look at it. If you are blind,
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you can't see, right? That's why it's not just
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about having the perfect persuasive argument
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or the formula, right? There's a spiritual blindness
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that we've got to overcome. And so that's why
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prayer and recognizing that we're actually dealing
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with the spiritual opposition first and foremost
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that we have to overcome. And so as we engage
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in our conversations with people, we need to
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be asking the Holy Spirit for supernatural discernment
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to see what is going on and to be able to discern
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that beyond the natural. Like to be able to discern
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what the real issue is or what the lie is that
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they're believing and to be able to discern that
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in a way that is actually discernible beyond
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just human natural comprehension. for that. And
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that when he does that, when he, when the Holy
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Spirit illuminates those things, you're actually
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able to get to the heart of things and whether
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those are lies or idols or felt needs that people
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have. So give me an example. Last year we were
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doing outreach. What we did is kind of a barbecue.
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We had music, we had games on the lawn and it
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was summer, warm summer day on a Saturday, lots
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of people around. And I was, I was sitting there
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and I was just asking Lord, Lord, give me one.
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One good conversation. Would you lead me to one
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person that I can have a really good gospel conversation
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with? And I was praying and waiting and just
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expecting that the Lord was going to give me
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that person at the right moment. And as I was
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sitting there and waiting and praying, a couple
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that had rented one of those rentable scooters,
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the two of them were on one of them, and they
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were scootering by. And then they stopped right
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in front of our spot to see what we were doing.
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And I saw them. I was like, That's them. Those
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are the ones that I need to talk to. And I felt
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that sense. And so I kind of waited and then
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came up to him and I began to engage him and
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talk to him and said, hey, come on, come in and
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invited them to hang out with us. And it was
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a guy and a girl and their name were Kat and
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Ryan. And I remember looking at the girl and
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having this sense from the spirit, like, ask
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her if she wants to sing. And I know nothing
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about this girl. And so I said, hey, are you
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a singer? You should go up on her stage and sing.
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And she's like, I am, I am a singer. And I had
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this sense from the Lord, like what she needed,
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this girl is to be seen. Like that she felt invisible.
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We talked about how people are so lonely and
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there's filtered reality and no one really sees
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you. And I felt like what she needed was to be
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seen. And so I was like, come on, go on stage.
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And we rallied our whole crew to watch her. And
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she sang some songs. We were like her biggest
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fan. And she was just like beaming because she
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was noticed. She was seen. And then they came
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off the stage. And we sat down. And we talked.
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And we ended up engaging in deep conversations.
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And they ended up staying with us. It was early
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in the night when they arrived. They ended up
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staying with us the entire night. Just stayed
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with us the whole night. And at the end, we did
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a Bible study. They stayed through that. And
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in the end, Kat prayed to receive Jesus. And
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just because God gave me the word that she wanted
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to be seen and that she was a singer, I had no
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knowledge of that. And it's not some weird thing.
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It's just the sense that we serve a supernatural
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God. who's pursuing his children, and he wants
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to give you more than natural discernment. I
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don't know about you, but I don't want to rely
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just on my human efforts. That's not good enough.
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I need something beyond to soften the hearts
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of these people. And so when I saw that with
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Kat and the incredible things that God did, it
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reminds us how much we are dependent on the power
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of the Holy Spirit to open people's eyes and
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open our eyes to what's going on in their reality.
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So that's the first principle here is we depend
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on the power of the Holy Spirit. The second thing
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is we want to be really wise about our communication
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and we want to avoid certain pitfalls. So for
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example, humans, we think in categories. It's
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the way that we think, right? And so we categorize
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things, we organize things. And when we engage
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people, we put people in boxes. It's just how
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we do it. And part of that is because it's easier,
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right? It's quicker. It's more efficient. We
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can take, we don't have to, you know, like our
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brains can just simplify things that way. And
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so we tend to put things in boxes. And so as
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we're engaging with people in spiritual conversations,
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there are three boxes you want to avoid being
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put into. Because what happens is it's a barrier
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that when you get put in that box, it's a barrier
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for you to speak truth. The box is a personal.
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religious and political. And so let me explain
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that a little bit. In our secular culture, many
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people, including Christians, believe that faith
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is purely a private matter, right? And that it
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should not be discussed publicly, that it's something
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that you don't want to push on other people,
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and it's something that is really between you
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and whatever God you might have, right? And so
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that's a lot of the belief. And so as a result,
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many people are very hesitant to engage in discussions
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about spirituality because they put it in the
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personal box. And so your goal in this case is
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to challenge that by taking the spiritual conversations
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out of the realm of the private and connecting
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it to everyday reality, everyday things and the
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implications it has on everyday reality. The
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fact that what you believe about these big spiritual
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things, we'll talk about what they are, actually
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impact your life. They actually impact daily
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things about the way you live your life. So you
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want to take it out of the box of personal by
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connecting it to the daily things that we do.
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The second thing is we want to take it out of
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the box of the religious. Right. So in a post
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-Christian culture, most people have had some
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engagement with the church, either growing up
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in it or they've just been aware of it somehow,
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some way. Right. Like most people have had some
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connection to the church. And so, unfortunately,
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for many people, they have a misconception of
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what the church is. For some people, the church
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has been equated with hypocrisy, with corruption
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and control. And so a spiritual conversation,
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when you're trying to deal with these big, major
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questions of life and these things, you want
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to do it in a way that doesn't evoke the baggage
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of religion that will distort their view of Jesus.
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And sometimes it's simple as saying, I'm not
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talking about institution. Again, we talked about
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one of the key assumptions of our culture today
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is that people have become suspicious of institutional
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religion. So sometimes we just need to say, I'm
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not talking about that, right? Or when you're
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engaging someone, you're not approaching them
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as a member of a church. You're just a person
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who follows Jesus. And you want to get it out
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of the box of religion. And sometimes that's
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about the words we use. Sometimes we use very
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religious words. that will immediately put you
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in a religious box. So the question is, how can
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we have spiritual conversations without using
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overly religious language, which is something
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you need to practice. And it's something that
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you need to, you know, as you gain, what's interesting
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is you don't learn this language through a textbook.
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You learn this language through immersion. Like
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I grew up in New Zealand for my teenage years.
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And we, as a New Zealander, we speak English,
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but we have all sorts of slang that when I came
17:55
to the U .S. just didn't connect. And quickly
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I learned, like, yeah, I'm not going to use that
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word because people look at me like, what are
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you talking about, right? But the reason I learned
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that is because I was around a bunch of other
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people that didn't talk like me, and I learned
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to adapt my style so I could communicate effectively.
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That is how we learn the nonreligious language
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of our culture, by being with people. And we
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learn it by immersion. My kids are learning Spanish
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because they go to immersion school where they're
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surrounded by it. That's the concept that we
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need. We need to learn to not speak with religious
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language that puts us in the religious box. And
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then so many people, sadly, interpret Jesus through
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the lens of a political box and a political party.
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And so they interpret what you're saying when
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it's in the political box through a political
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lens. We want to get out of that because it just
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brings in all sorts of messiness and confusion
18:49
and false assumptions. So we need to make sure
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that when we're talking, we're not talking about
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political ideology. We're not even talking about
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secondary political things. We're talking about
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the core spiritual topics. And so it's really
19:04
important to know how to avoid the political
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box. Because the issue here is that even if they
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agree with your political perspective, to get
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hung up on the political stuff is just unhelpful
19:14
in pointing people to Jesus. So again, We're
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trying to stay out of these three boxes that
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people will naturally bring to the conversation.
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If you're able to do that, you're going to have
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a much more productive conversation than if you
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get stuck in one of these three. All right. So
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with that said, the next key principle is to
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recognize that pretty much everything has spiritual
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implications. Like everything that we do and
19:40
that we talk about has spiritual implications.
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And that as skilled missionaries to our culture,
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we need to be in tune and skilled at drawing
19:51
those conversations out in a natural way. And
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that these are often very important things about
19:58
us. And our goal is to move from the secular
20:01
and the superficial to the spiritual. How to
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move our friendships and our conversations from
20:07
the superficial to the spiritual. And again,
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recognizing that I'm just going to list a number
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of things here. These are just a handful of very
20:14
general topics that have spiritual implications
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and that are part of daily life. So when people
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discuss morality or purpose, you know, the purpose
20:26
of their, what do they do? Their job, right?
20:28
Or their identity, which is a big one today.
20:31
Or love and family. You know, work, beauty, hope,
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dreams, sickness, loss, all of these things,
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which are universal in terms of connecting with
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people, have spiritual implications. And a lot
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of times when you're engaging in spiritual conversations,
20:48
it's about asking questions that tease out the
20:51
spiritual implications, right? You don't have
20:53
to tell them. You can just ask the question,
20:56
like, are there universal human rights? Or where
20:59
does human value come from? Why is it that humans
21:04
are valuable? Why do we believe that? Or in the
21:08
issue of purpose, what makes life worth living?
21:11
What do you get up for? And you ask this question
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because everyone believes this, but isn't life
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more than just survival? Isn't it more than just
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pursuing pleasure and avoiding pain, getting
21:23
old and dying? Isn't there something more than
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that? We're talking about things that bring satisfaction.
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You can ask people like, why is it that satisfaction
21:32
in material things is so fleeting? Or why is
21:36
happiness so elusive? Why is it like something
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we can't hold on to for very long? What is that?
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You know, we're talking about, again, felt needs.
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Why is suffering and pain such a universal thing?
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None of us argue with the existence of pain and
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suffering, but why? What is that? How do we fix
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ourselves? So a lot of these things. are things
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that we interact with in a daily level with people
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as we build those friendships. Remember, the
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context here is we are developing authentic friendships
22:05
with people. And that gives us the ability to
22:08
ask harder questions or get deeper about these
22:11
things. And that doesn't necessarily mean I'm
22:14
going straight to Jesus and the message of the
22:16
cross. That is our goal. But I'm now challenging
22:18
the underlying assumption. I'm getting people
22:21
to think about why they believe what they believe
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or to even begin to see. the incoherence and
22:28
the inconsistency of what they believe without
22:31
putting them on the spot, right? Like, cause
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when I ask a question about human value, that's
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much different than saying, why are you pro choice?
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You know what I mean? Like think about the, I
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just asked essentially the same question, but
22:45
very different context and very different, much
22:49
more receptive to actually progress and productivity
22:52
in a conversation. So again, The goal here is
22:56
that we need to become good missionaries by knowing
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how to tease out, to ask good questions that
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bring out spiritual conversations in everyday
23:05
life. And it's really cool because when you do
23:08
this, man, you can have amazing conversation.
23:10
One of a really cool example recently, we have
23:13
a team in Houston, was out doing a prayer walk
23:16
in kind of a secular part of the city. And they
23:19
end up connecting. And it was really cool because
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they end up through a series of conversations,
23:23
end up being led to essentially was like this
23:25
like secret rave club. And it was this really
23:29
intense club. They had to go through all these
23:31
back doors to get there. And there's packed with
23:33
people. Very, you know, not a Christian place.
23:37
And they were there. And this guy, Roger. This
23:40
middle -aged suburban dad guy was there and he's
23:43
feeling very out of place. And he's like, what
23:45
am I doing here? And so they decided to like
23:48
split up in groups and go talk to people. And
23:51
they were talking. And then all of a sudden,
23:53
this one girl who's kind of like this, you know,
23:55
very, you know, charismatic, outgoing girl walks
23:58
up to their group and is like, hey, what are
24:00
you guys doing here? You guys are kind of interesting.
24:02
And she starts to, she starts to talk to him.
24:05
And then she said, you know, what are you, like,
24:07
what are you really, I want to know you guys.
24:09
you good at? Which is a very interesting question
24:11
for her to ask, right? They're all asking these
24:13
questions. And then Roger is thinking, man, what
24:15
am I going to say to this girl? And it gets to
24:18
him and he says, well, you know what? I guess
24:22
I'm good at being a dad. I love being with my
24:25
kids, my boys. And the girl just was floored.
24:29
Boom. Just stopped her right in her tracks, tears
24:32
in her eyes. After a moment of pause, all of
24:35
a sudden she just gives Roger a huge hug. And
24:38
she's like, we don't have a lot of those around
24:39
here. And then Allison, one of the girls there,
24:43
ended up taking her aside and just having a deep,
24:46
powerful conversation, praying with her. But
24:48
it was a father's love, right? It's a spiritual,
24:52
that has spiritual implications. So many people
24:55
long for that kind of love. And so again, the
24:59
reality is that spiritual things are all around
25:01
us. And how can we be in tune? And he didn't
25:04
say anything about Jesus and the cross, but he
25:06
spoke a truth that connected in her and opened
25:10
her to the ultimate truth. And so again, that's
25:14
the idea of the spiritual implications. Now,
25:17
what you're doing when you're having these conversations
25:19
is that you're looking for four things. You're
25:22
discerning and you're identifying four things.
25:26
You're looking for idols. And, you know, idols
25:30
has a weird connotation in a biblical sense,
25:32
but it's just, it's just things that they are
25:34
putting their hope in. Things that they are putting
25:37
their identity in. Things that if they put their
25:41
hope in an identity and they're not, they're
25:43
going to be crushed by that because it will let
25:45
them down. You know, it can be lots of things.
25:48
It can be career and work. It can be their bodies.
25:51
If they're into health, it can be lots of things
25:53
that you are putting your hope and your identity
25:56
in. What are the idols? And you're not like calling
25:59
that out. You're just saying, okay, I see where
26:01
they're putting their hope, right? Because then
26:03
in a loving way, eventually you're going to be
26:05
able to challenge that. Or what are the felt
26:08
needs that they have? People will tell you pretty
26:12
honestly when they're dealing with anxiety or
26:15
depression or broken relationships. A lot of
26:18
people, a lot of us, all of us struggle with
26:21
broken relationships. So identifying the felt
26:24
needs that they are experiencing and then looking
26:27
for lies that they believe. And by that, I mean,
26:31
what are things that they are believing? that
26:33
is out of alignment with biblical truth, that
26:36
is standing in the way from them hearing the
26:38
gospel message? What are lies that they're believing?
26:40
Oftentimes, it's going to be lies about sexuality,
26:43
what they believe about what is the purpose of
26:46
sex and how they're living that out. Or it's
26:49
lies that they believe about truth and morality
26:51
or the church or whatever. What are the lies
26:54
that they are believing? Begin to identify those
26:56
things. And then fourth, begin to identify truth.
27:01
that they believe or are living out without realizing
27:05
that they're already living in alignment with
27:08
biblical truth. And the reason you want to do
27:10
that is because you can begin to affirm. If you
27:13
can identify things that they believe or ways
27:17
that they are living in their character and in
27:19
their behavior that is already in alignment with
27:22
biblical truth, that gives you an opportunity
27:24
to affirm and connect. So if they're passionate
27:29
about caring for the oppressed and those that
27:33
are marginalized, you can say, I really respect
27:36
and appreciate that because you're living in
27:39
alignment with biblical truth without even knowing
27:41
it. I don't say it like that, but my point is
27:42
I can connect. Or if they're a very gracious
27:46
and kind and generous person, I can call that
27:50
out. I can affirm that truth in them. And I can
27:53
begin to build that platform. But then that also
27:56
gives me the platform to meet their felt needs,
27:59
to say that your pain actually matters, that
28:03
the pain you're going through matters, and that
28:05
there is hope for healing, that there is hope
28:08
for relational restoration, if that's the problem,
28:11
that you can bring hope and healing and you can
28:13
pray for people. It's amazing how open people
28:15
are to being prayed for, for their felt needs.
28:19
And then as you build that affirmation of truth,
28:23
you've met their felt needs, you can also begin
28:25
to challenge the lies and the idols that they
28:28
have in their life. And you can say that these
28:31
things are actually causing you harm, that these
28:33
things are actually not in the way God designed
28:36
it. And God's not here to control you. He's here
28:38
for your good, that His ways are for your good.
28:41
And so you're looking for ways to connect. both
28:45
in the terms of affirmation and challenge, your
28:48
conversation to at least one truth of the gospel,
28:51
right? So that truth can be about human value
28:55
and dignity because we were created in the image
28:57
of God, right? I can say like, I see that you
29:00
value human life. Well, I want to affirm that
29:04
and I'm with you and here's why. Or we can challenge
29:07
the fact that in secular culture, for example,
29:09
one of the lies of secular culture is that we
29:13
can fix ourselves. That with enough education
29:16
and the right... political system and laws, we
29:20
can fix ourselves. And as Christians, we can
29:23
challenge that. We can say, no, I don't see that
29:26
truth. That's not true because it doesn't seem
29:28
to matter what system, what education we do.
29:32
We can't get rid of evil and pain and corruption,
29:35
right? Now we're challenging something that they
29:38
believe, but it's all based on that relational
29:41
trust that we've built up as we seek to identify
29:45
idols, felt needs, lies, and truth. in our spiritual
29:48
conversations. Now, here's a couple of things
29:51
that I want to talk about, about the way, the
29:53
how we do this. This is the what, but how do
29:56
we do this in a good way? So the first is that
29:59
we want to approach this. We are not convincing
30:02
people that you are right. You are encouraging
30:07
them to pursue the truth. Those are two very
30:11
different things. And it's actually quite liberating.
30:15
to just encourage people to pursue the truth
30:18
because I don't have to know everything, right?
30:20
And I can just be honest and transparent. It
30:24
also evens the playing field. It's not me coming
30:26
at them from a place of superiority and I know
30:29
and you don't. Instead, it's like we're in this
30:32
together and let's pursue truth. And here's the
30:35
beauty. Jesus is the truth. And so we need to
30:39
trust that an honest pursuit of truth always
30:44
leads to Jesus. And that's why you're encouraging
30:47
them not to, because when it's, I'm right and
30:50
you're wrong, then it creates defensiveness.
30:52
It creates a, you know, adversarial approach.
30:55
But when it's like, hey, let's pursue the truth
30:57
together and you exhibit some humility along
30:59
the way, it opens them up to pursue the truth
31:02
along with you. And then there's going to be
31:05
questions and things that come up that you don't
31:07
know the answer to. And that's okay. When you've
31:10
approached it from this way, you can be like,
31:11
well, let's figure that out. Let's look into
31:13
that. Let's try to understand that. And now you're
31:17
pursuing the truth together. And that's where
31:20
you want to get. And then the second thing is
31:23
that you want to create an open environment.
31:25
So here's the thing. We live in the time of cancel
31:27
culture, right? Now, as Christians, we think
31:31
we're like the only victims of that. And so we're
31:34
like, oh, everyone's out to get us. Maybe, maybe
31:36
not. But the point is, everyone deals with this
31:39
cancel culture environment. And so everyone's
31:42
afraid to say something wrong that's going to
31:46
get them canceled. And so what that creates is
31:48
it creates a sense where we're not willing to
31:50
say things or process things in an open and honest
31:55
way because we're afraid. And so what you want
31:57
to do is you want to counter that cancel culture
31:59
by creating an environment where it's okay to
32:02
doubt. Where it's okay to ask hard questions.
32:05
Where it's to say something, even to say something
32:08
stupid or offensive. Like, I'm not here to catch
32:11
you. I'm not going to tweet this later. This
32:14
is like in a great open environment and to process
32:17
in real time. And here's the cool thing. When
32:19
you do this and you show that this is real, this
32:22
is like a great space for people because they
32:25
feel this is not something the world has. Everyone
32:27
is like, I'm out to get you. If you say the wrong
32:29
thing, I'm going to slam you. And it's such a
32:32
freeing thing to be around people, may or may
32:35
not agree, and to respect and love each other
32:38
and allow for that environment. And again, I'm
32:40
not saying this because I don't believe there's
32:42
an ultimate truth. There is. But you want to
32:45
create an environment where the truth can be
32:47
pursued. So then when you've done all that, then
32:49
you just do the basic work of apologetics. You
32:53
listen and ask a ton of questions. Be patient,
32:56
respectful, and gracious, like it says in 1 Peter.
33:00
And then the whole thing that we're doing, as
33:02
we talked about, is we're trying to understand
33:04
what are their assumptions. Remember, what are
33:06
their idols? What are their... felt needs, the
33:10
lies and the truth that they believe? What are
33:11
the inconsistencies and how can I begin to challenge
33:14
them? What are the questions or truth behind
33:17
the objection? Again, this is something that
33:19
is both discerned by our natural listening, but
33:22
also spiritually discerned. Like what is the
33:24
real issue that you're dealing with? A lot of
33:27
times people's hostility is based on pain that
33:31
they've experienced. And so that's the real issue,
33:33
not the intellectual objection that they have.
33:36
And so how can you identify the real issue? And
33:39
then, of course, our whole heart is win the heart,
33:41
not the argument. And as someone that likes to
33:44
debate, my parents had to teach me this one growing
33:47
up because I like to win even if I lost a friend
33:50
in the process. And so the whole idea is you're
33:53
trying to win people's hearts, not their arguments.
33:57
So this is the context of how to engage in a
34:00
spiritual conversation. Now, I want to end this
34:03
part by just asking the question, have I failed
34:05
if I don't share the gospel? All right. And my
34:09
answer to that would be depends. Because success
34:13
is about obedience, not about you feeling good
34:17
because you share the gospel. It's about what
34:19
did God ask you to do? So if he asked you to
34:22
share the gospel and you didn't, then yeah, that's
34:25
a failure. And by the way, there's... there's
34:28
grace and you can get back up and do it again,
34:30
right? But if he asked you and you didn't, then
34:34
yes. But there are also times when we need to
34:36
be discerning of the spirit where it isn't the
34:38
right time. And sometimes we become such Jesus
34:40
robots that we vomit our scripts without being
34:43
discerning, right? So that the point here is
34:46
in 1 Corinthians 3, 6, that it says, I planted
34:49
the seed, Apollo watered it, but God has seen
34:51
to make it grow. The idea here is we all have
34:53
a role to play. And the big thing is that we
34:57
are not the hero Jesus is. That is an important
35:01
point, and it's also very liberating. Because
35:04
it's not about me. It's about responding to the
35:08
prompting of the Holy Spirit and being obedient.
35:11
And if you're really in tune, if you're growing
35:13
in intimacy with Jesus and you're in tune to
35:15
the Spirit, then in particular moments, maybe
35:18
He's going to call you to a prophetic word of
35:20
challenging someone and speaking truth, and it's
35:23
going to be confrontational. Sometimes that's
35:25
the way it is. Other times, all you're there
35:27
to do is be a friend. And it's because it's not
35:30
a formula. It's about obedience to an active
35:33
and living God that's working inside of you.
35:35
And so that's how we want to do it. And the goal
35:37
here... is that we are moving people closer to
35:41
Jesus every time we interact. That's the goal.
35:43
That every time I interact, I am moving them
35:46
closer to Jesus. I am breaking down maybe some
35:49
relational challenges. I'm challenging a truth
35:52
or I'm affirming something in them, but I'm drawing
35:56
them closer and closer to Jesus by the power
35:58
of the Spirit every time I interact with them.
36:01
All right, so this is our goal as how to engage
36:06
in these spiritual conversations. And I'm going
36:08
to show you a video because I just want to illustrate
36:09
to you how much people are very much open to
36:13
this and how much they desire it. We've done
36:15
a series of focus groups in which we basically
36:17
use these principles. And people are so hungry
36:21
for this kind of spiritual conversation. So we'll
36:24
end it with this video, and then we'll be done
36:26
with this section. I think a thing would be that
36:31
religion, I see religion more as like a way that
36:33
people used to teach values and teach like what
36:36
is right. That's why you'll see like, you know,
36:38
Christians here are going to be a lot different
36:40
than Christians in the South, Christians across
36:42
the world. Same with any religion, you know,
36:44
there's no, I'd be hard pressed to find a religion
36:47
that's the exact same everywhere because people
36:49
will take their values and apply it to the religion
36:51
and use the religion to justify their values.
36:54
So it really, you can't just say like one religion
36:57
would be right when people are taking it and
36:59
using it to amplify what they already believe.
37:02
And it also is about implications because as
37:05
you said, when what we believe about the world
37:09
and what's true and who we are has massive implications
37:12
for how we act. A distorted view of Christianity
37:15
has led to some horrible things. But I would
37:19
also argue that a view of the world that says
37:22
there are no consequences, I'm just a highly
37:24
evolved animal and the best thing for me to do
37:27
is survive and dominate the weak, that could
37:31
equally justify and has justified some horrible
37:34
things. Which is why this discussion isn't just
37:38
Halloween candy and costumes, which is why there
37:41
are serious implications even to things that
37:44
we can't fully grasp or fully prove. What do
37:47
you guys think? I was just going to add, like,
37:50
right, you could go down that route of doing
37:53
something bad or believing in ideology that has,
37:57
like, negative implications on the world, right?
37:59
But then if we factor in the whole idea of love,
38:02
right? Like, if you're going out killing people
38:07
because, like, you think that that's your truth
38:09
and that's, like, good for you, right? If you
38:12
factor in love to that equation, that's not a
38:15
loving thing to do, to kill people, right? So
38:18
I suppose love could be a foundation for which
38:23
we can strive for the truth. The definition of
38:26
God's love for us in the Christian idea is that
38:31
he sent Jesus to basically sacrifice himself
38:34
for you. That's the ultimate expression of love.
38:37
And so I think that is kind of one of the challenges
38:40
is so much garbage gets in the way of something
38:43
that it distorts our view of it. But if you consider
38:46
the Christian view is actually not that it makes
38:50
like bad people good. The Christian view is it
38:53
actually makes dead people that are spiritually
38:55
dead alive. That's actually the Christian message.
38:59
And the reason that I find hope after this life
39:04
is not in my deeds, but actually in my connection
39:07
in relationship with my creator. What was really
39:09
surprising is people did engage, you know, even
39:12
after it ended. People didn't want to leave.
39:14
People wanted to stay. People wanted to talk.
39:16
Yeah, I really do appreciate the opportunity
39:18
to get to hear the opinions of other people and
39:21
the viewpoints of other people. Yeah, it was
39:24
a good conversation. I feel like I'm kind of
39:26
left with my head in circles a little bit. I
39:28
definitely think about the truth, but I don't
39:29
always necessarily have an answer because we
39:31
kind of talk about there maybe isn't necessarily
39:33
one. So I guess I'm kind of left with my brain
39:37
going, I guess, a little bit. It's almost as
39:40
if these people weren't strangers anymore. that
39:42
they were actually sitting there together and
39:44
actually enjoying this kind of conversation.
39:46
And it was just an incredible example of how
39:49
hungry the youth culture is today to have deep
39:53
and meaningful spiritual conversations. I haven't
39:55
had a lot of chances to have conversations like
39:59
that. I was just really happy to be here. Everyone
40:01
here is a very welcoming environment. Yeah, it's
40:04
eye -opening. It's good to hear a whole bunch
40:07
of different perspectives. It wasn't frowned
40:10
upon to disagree with anybody. I came into it
40:13
pretty skeptical, but after hearing everybody's
40:15
ideas, what they were talking about, finding
40:18
your purpose, all that, it's really... I definitely
40:21
do believe it more. There's got to be something
40:23
else. This is going to have me leaving with a
40:26
lot of thinking going on. And I love to think
40:29
and I love to hear what other people think about
40:32
the world and the concept of spirituality. So
40:34
10 out of 10, we'll do this again. Pretty cool,
40:38
right? So here's the thing. We can do this. You
40:41
can do this. This isn't just for apologists,
40:45
people that are intellectual. All of us can have
40:47
these conversations. So again, spiritual conversations
40:51
and non -religious, literally a tool that's helped
40:53
you have these conversations with people in your
40:55
life. Seeing that you're building that bridge
40:58
from a friendship to the gospel through spiritual
41:01
conversations. You're listening to Living on
41:06
the Edge with Chip Ingram, a special lesson from
41:09
guest teacher Aaron Pierce. If today's message
41:12
stirred something in you, we'd love to put a
41:15
practical tool in your hands. Aaron has poured
41:18
decades of ministry experience into the Not Beyond
41:21
Reach Participants Guide, a 10 -session video
41:24
-based study designed to equip small groups and
41:27
families alike to engage with unbelievers in
41:30
today's skeptical post -Christian culture. Each
41:33
session includes discussion questions and simple
41:36
exercises your group can practice together. This
41:39
special study guide is available at a reduced
41:42
price. So don't wait. Get your copy at livingontheedge
41:46
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41:50
one you heard today don't happen by accident.
41:52
They take preparation, planning, and a whole
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team of people working quietly behind the scenes
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to put biblical wisdom into words that actually
42:00
land with a skeptical culture. None of that happens
42:04
without listeners like you. If this ministry
42:07
has ever shaped the way you talk with someone
42:09
you love, we encourage you to stand behind it
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with a gift today. You can give quickly and securely
42:15
online at livingontheedge .org or call us at
42:18
888 -333 -6003. You can also send your gift by
42:23
mail to Living on the Edge, P .O. Box 3007, Suwannee,
42:28
Georgia, 30024. Well, now here's Chip Ingram
42:32
sharing a personal reflection on today's message.
42:35
Thanks, Dave. I just want to pause and have just
42:38
a couple what I think are important comments.
42:41
about something that Aaron said in his message,
42:44
what if I don't share the gospel? You know, a
42:47
lot of people approaching the idea of witnessing
42:49
is like, you know, if you don't share the gospel,
42:51
if you don't close the deal, if you don't get
42:53
them to sign on the dotted line, you kind of
42:56
blew it. And for some of us, we've grown up that
42:59
way. We don't see it as an arc and a process.
43:02
And I just have to say that this idea of building
43:05
relationships has helped me a bunch. I was playing
43:09
golf just last week, and I bumped into this couple
43:13
twice now. And we had a good relationship, and
43:16
I've asked lots of questions. Where are they
43:18
coming from? And she happens to come from Chile,
43:20
and he's fluent in Spanish, and I'm always trying
43:22
to learn that. And, you know, he's a tech guy
43:25
and just a great relationship with him. And then
43:27
the second time we played, oh, it's good to see
43:30
you. We're going to play again. And she hit a
43:32
shot. She goes, yes, I'm praying to the universe
43:34
that I'll hit the ball better today. And just
43:37
after, you know, we've had all these conversations,
43:39
I smiled at her and said, I got to tell you,
43:42
I actually know. the God that created all the
43:46
universe. I don't have to pray to the whole universe.
43:48
And she leaned forward and she goes, oh, you
43:51
must believe like my mother. And she's someone
43:53
who grew up in a very strict religion, felt a
43:56
lot of guilt, walked away from it. But that conversation
43:59
began just a warm... relational talk about what
44:06
God is really like and how we might know. And
44:09
then to my surprise, I walked into the pro shop
44:11
and I had a book. And as I walked in, this lady's
44:15
husband walked in and goes, oh, did you write
44:17
that? And I said, yes. And it's the book called
44:20
The Real God. It's who God really is and the
44:22
attributes of God. And he goes, wow, I'd love
44:25
to read that. I took a little golf pencil, signed
44:27
a note in it, and gave it to him. He looked at
44:30
me, grabbed it, and said, I'm going to read this,
44:33
and I'm going to tell you what I think. I said,
44:34
I'll put my email in it. Here's my point. It's
44:38
building these kind of relationships that will
44:41
open the door for the gospel. Here's my question.
44:44
Who are you building relationships with that's
44:47
different than you where God will open the door
44:50
in due time if you love them right where they're
44:53
at? Next time, Aaron shows us what it actually
44:56
looks like to introduce someone to Jesus and
44:59
why a little resistance along the way might actually
45:02
be a good sign. So join us again right here on
45:05
Living on the Edge. Today's program is produced
45:11
and sponsored by Living on the Edge.