Latest / The Driven Athlete / Ep 5: Mental Health, Emotional Resilience, and Sports Psychology: Insights with Mary Tatum

Transcript

Ep 5: Mental Health, Emotional Resilience, and Sports Psychology: Insights with Mary Tatum · The Driven Athlete

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: If you're a driven, active person who wants to reach and pursue a higher quality life with some ambition, then guess what this podcast is for you.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: This is the Driven Athlete Podcast.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: What's up?
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Y'all?
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: It's your man.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Dr Kyle Got a really cool guest today, mary Tatum.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: She's in the mental health and psychology profession field and we're really excited to have her on.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Tell us more, mary, what exactly your title is, what you're doing and what you're doing now.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Okay, so first of all, really happy to be here.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: This is a fun thing it's.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: My favorite thing to kind of talk about is just feelings and where we are in the world with feelings.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Most people minimize them.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: I say when you pay attention to them, life starts to happen in the way that you want to.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah everyone's afraid of them.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Everyone is so afraid of them.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: I'm glad you said that I don't want to get my feelings.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: I don't want to get my feelings hurt.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: I don't want to feel my feelings, and we'll get into this later.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: The funny thing is when you avoid your feelings.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: That's when you start to create the chaos that you've been trying to avoid the whole time.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, makes total sense.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: It's really fun.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, tell us about you.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm a licensed mental health counselor and a qualified supervisor, which means that I then supervise other therapists.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Talk about feelings for living.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: I got undergrad degree in psychology, then went to Palm Beach Atlantic for my master's, did my supervision stuff, got licensed, started out in social work and community therapy, which is a fascinating thing to start out in, because you're in people's homes and you're in their lives as they're living them.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: You see a very different side of talk therapy, if you will, when you're in life with them as opposed to when they just show up in your office.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: That was fascinating to kind of.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: It's intense, I would imagine it's intense, very intense.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: You kind of get this helicopter view, especially when you're working with high-risk kids, of what they're dealing with.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, I see why you're not paying attention in algebra, you really see it.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Then I moved into substance abuse.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: I spent 10 years in the substance abuse realm of things, which is also fascinating, because active addiction is human behavior, but magnified.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: It's like what all humans do, but at a really intense level.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: If you can find serenity in addiction, you can find serenity anywhere.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: It's a fascinating thing Now I'm in private practice.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: I've been in there for almost a decade.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: North Palm Beach.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: North Palm Beach.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Gotcha, you're pursuing your PhD now, correct?
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: Yes, you recently.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Yes, Started my doctorate studies.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: I'm researching a lot of loneliness and how it contributes to burnout.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: I'm looking at what leads people to their breaking point when they just give up.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Is it part personality?
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Is it part thought process?
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of stuff on that, but what is it that leads some people to just break down and give up?
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: They're like I quit, throw papers in the air, whatever, especially in high-intent situations.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: I'm looking at how to care for the caregivers.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: We're doing a lot of stuff in Ukraine right now with wartime Very intense, because if you can figure out what works in the most intense situations, you can apply that everywhere.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Then a main focus of mine is also sports psychology, because I feel like that is one of the few places left that you can go to strengthen yourself mentally, physically, emotionally.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: This is a lot of where it happens.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm definitely grateful for the experiences I've had in my own little sports endeavors in the past.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: There's just things you can't learn that is difficult to learn elsewhere through sports for character building, discipline, hard work, perseverance, going through pain, discomfort appropriately.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Anyway, I have a lot of.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: There's a lot Also when you're training, especially team sports, allowing somebody to see you when you're at your worst, when you make a bad play.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: How do you respond to that?
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: How do people pick you up?
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: How do you pick other people up?
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: A team sees you through everything.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: Just the emotional roller coaster of that.
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: That's really cool.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: The PhD what's the timeline?
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: Look for that.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: Usually, I mean I would never do that.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: That might be.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: Why would you do that to yourself?
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: Glutton for punishment Nerd at heart.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: I'm happiest when I'm just surrounded by all the books.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: This is like You're surrounded by all the books anyway.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: You might as well get an additional set of letters.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: What I love about it, though, is it focuses my doctorate studies is a little bit different.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: I'm not becoming a clinical psychologist per se Psychologists.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: They follow a medical model, which is diagnosis and treatment.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: It's like you fit these symptoms and then this is our treatment plan.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: There's a big need for that.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: We need to know what we're dealing with before we can deal with it.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: That's what the medical model does.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Big need for that.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: What I study is research of what happens in between people.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: That's not tangible Communication, for one thing, even the energy between people.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: If you walk into a room, you feel the energy.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: It's either good, or it's not so great, or I don't know about this.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: It's a research for counselors, because counselors look at what's not working and what can we do about it.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: Sometimes we need a medical model, but sometimes it's not a mental health diagnosis.
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: It's just a situation that I don't know what to do with this.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Gotcha Very interesting.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: You worked in the social worker environment field first, and then addiction, and then now private practice.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: Right now, population-wise, what do you find yourself working with the most?
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Population-wise.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Well, I think anxiety and depression is right under.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: I went grocery shopping this week.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: As far as who has it?
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: It's just everybody anxiety and depression.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: What's interesting and this is what we're looking at right now is a lot of things get labeled as anxiety and depression when really it's something else, like loneliness or grief, or mainly loneliness, in my opinion, or I've lost a sense of purpose because the pandemic threw me out of my routine.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: The pandemic didn't happen that long ago, but also it did.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: We forget what it was like then a few years ago, life was upended.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: People are just now trying to figure out what family life looks like, what jobs look like, especially kids, a lot of kids.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: The pandemic happened and they went to Zoom and schools shut down.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: They may have been in eighth grade.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: They woke up and they were juniors and people were like where are you going to college?
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: What are you going to do with your life?
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: They're like I don't even have algebra yet.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: So I think life is happening really fast.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: So people trying to keep up with the break the neck, break speed of change like whiplash.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: And then relationships are different.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: So there's a whole lot of relationship stuff happening, because the way that we used to relate to people is not working anymore, so we're figuring out new ways to talk.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: It's interesting.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: You said that students too.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: We have a lot of graduate students that come up and observe with us in our sports clinic and a lot of them went through school during the pandemic and then they had to do a lot of online things and some of their internships like how did that work?
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: So we're talking to them and it's just very interesting because the competency and confidence are two different things and I've definitely noticed not as much confidence, because there was a different experience that you couldn't be in person.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: It's not the same experience when you're like doing online school, especially for a profession.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: That's like people facing yes, and I'm glad you said that, because here's what's very interesting, and this is where sports psychology becomes fascinating.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: When you lose your confidence, your ego becomes very fragile, so you are no longer open to the growth that confidence allows you to be in.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: So then you start getting in your own way.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: Ego causes people to get in their own way and they can't figure out how to get out of it.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: So, taking sports psychology for example, there's a big difference between an athlete that is striving to just win all the time and an athlete that's striving to be as excellent as they can be.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: So we call it the pursuit of excellence, and that's a character trait thing and a self-discipline thing, much more so than I need the bragging rights of winning and being the superstar.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: Also, if your identity is tied in that, then when sports is no longer a thing for you, you have no idea who you are.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: Right, or I imagine too like if that's your identity and you're not doing well, and then your ego gets inflated more and then your confidence suffers even further.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: I could imagine this is a whole cycle that makes total sense.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: Whole cycle.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: And the more fragile the ego, the less the humility, and then the less we call it open-hearted.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the less willing to take.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: I would imagine coaching, criticism, feedback at the fear of your own ego being damaged.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: Damaged and also the less connected you are.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: So there's an interesting correlation between the more ego you have, the less connected you are to other people.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes total sense.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I heard it from you.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: You were saying very successful, intelligent intellectual people with low egos.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Great, open-minded conversations.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: High, successful, highly intelligent people with high egos.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: Usually it's a power struggle for them just to show you how smart they are or how successful they are.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're very close.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: So what we want actually is a balanced ego.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: So what humans need more than anything but it's the hardest to obtain and then to be consistent with it is balance in anything.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: So when you have a balanced ego, you so.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: For example, if my ego is too low, if I don't have enough of it, then I'm a human doormat.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: People can run over me, they can say whatever they want and I'm like sure I have no value as a person.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: Do whatever you want to me.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: So ego is that thing that if somebody says something mean to you, you're like I don't think you should say that, I don't think you like that.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: So ego is what stands up for you and kind of raises its hand when, like, I'm not okay with that.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: So we do need some ego.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: Ego is also that little voice that says that challenge over there, I bet I could go do it, let's take on a risk.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: So it's a good amount of ego.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: When it's too much ego, you lose your humility and so your ears shut and you stop listening to any outside influence that might be beneficial.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: You also stop caring about how you affect other people.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: Gotcha.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: So more narcissism or self-centeredness, self-absorption.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's an interesting spectrum.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: When you look at narcissism versus self-centeredness, it you know it fluctuates.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: Narcissism tends to be someone's personality.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: Selfishness can be driven by a lot of things.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: There's an expression that all people in pain are selfish because your survival kicks in.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: There's also an expression if you sober up the horse thief, is he still a horse thief?
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Interesting, that's really interesting.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: And then higher ego.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: Would you also say that there's a less willingness to do things that they don't know how to do and the fear of looking bad?
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: Definitely.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: Well, I was at the opposite of like I can do that whatever.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: And then there's a high confidence and more of a blindness.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: So I think An interesting thing with narcissists is they don't have self-doubt, so it comes off as confidence, but really it's.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: This is how I want it and this is how we're going to do it, and everybody get on board with it, and I don't care what you have to do to get on board with it.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: Confidence is like I bet I have more talent than what I think I have, but there's still.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: So back to your point, high ego usually, or an ego out of balance in the wrong direction.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: It's a power struggle.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: I want it this way rather than negotiation.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: In negotiation, both people come out feeling like they want something, like we're both okay with this.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: Power struggle is like I'm going to strong arm you into what I want.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: Deal with it.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't care what you think.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: I don't care what you think.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: And they literally don't.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: It's really interesting Back to the way that the COVID, the pandemic and everything really shifted stuff.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: And then the anxiety, depression, right, or maybe misinterpretations of that too, and with students right, and then also business owners right, Are people that are pursuing their career and driven for career and stuff too.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: I would imagine, speaking for myself, imagining another pandemic or what happened in the past, the anxiety of I don't know what's going to happen in the future.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: Is everything going to plummet and then everything just and just crash?
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: And I think you told me I heard it from you also and other people Anxiety is the fear of the future and not being able to handle it.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: So there's a theory that anxiety is a lack of faith in yourself to be able to handle anything that comes your way.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: So if I'm anxious about the future, there's a fear that I'm either going to fail or I'm going to miss something, or, whatever it is, I'm not going to be able to handle it.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: And then compare that to depression.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: How would you describe that?
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: So depression is an interesting thing because it's a spectrum Anxiety and depression both are kind of normal human emotions.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: They should come and go and fluctuate and they're like barometers they let you know that something here is a little bit off, but they don't tell you what.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: So that's kind of what we have to find.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: When you're at the point that depression makes life unmanageable, like I cannot get out of bed, cannot go to work, cannot do this List of things, we flip to a medical model.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: There's something there going on, but if it's like a funk or just a mood that we're kind of in, it could be pointing to a lot of things it always points to there's something here that needs to be looked at and paid attention to.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: So emotions call us to action.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: That's the point of them.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: So if I'm feeling depressed, the feeling is calling me to some sort of action that I would not be taking otherwise.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: So if I'm sad, I need to not only figure out why, but then also is it rational or is this?
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: Do I need to change my frame of how I'm seeing this?
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: So let's say I'm we'll go back to sports.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: Like I lose a game or lose a match and I'm depressed about it why.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: It could be one of two things I either did not prepare myself properly and so it's a character trait issue and I need to go back and be more self-disciplined in an area, or I'm really embarrassed and then that's an ego thing, yeah totally Makes total sense Shame, fear of rejection and all that stuff, opinions, I would imagine.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: When it comes together that's really interesting and we can't neglect.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: So another thing that we always talk about with our patients too.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Unfortunately, we can't neglect or can't disconnect the brain, the mind, from the body.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: There's a ton of interplay and it's been, well you know, research and documented.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: How do you feel that the psychological component impacts someone's physical health?
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Have you seen it?
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, so to your point, we know that it does.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: We're still kind of researching how and why and there's a lot of different theories with this.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of research on the vagus nerve that's coming out.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: You may know more about that than I do, but how to make that vibrate in different ways that either activates fight or flight or calms you down.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Parasympathetic versus sympathetic.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Just a heads up In case people aren't familiar.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: The sympathetic nervous system is an autonomic nervous system, complex for fight or flight, when it's like getting really excited or scared, ready to like run away or fight right.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: And then parasympathetic is for rest and digest, for maybe a different lowering blood pressure, getting things to calm down GI issues usually reproductive issues usually seem to be rude in some kind of parasympathetic thing.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: But the vagus nerve has connections, have a ton, it's very influential with the parasympathetic nervous system.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so there's a lot of Sorry.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: No, no, that was great.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: A lot of research on that, piggybacking off of what you just said.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: We know that when your heart rate goes above 120 beats a minute, you're in a state of what we call flooded, which means that your automatic nervous system has come on and your logic thinking goes out the window.
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: So we are reacting instead of acting.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: We see this a lot in relationship therapy, where people and this is all people they will fight, and if you've ever been in a fight with someone and you start suddenly just throwing out words and you don't even remember what you're fighting about, we're just screaming at each other.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: Our logic brain is going to this never happened to me.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: Never happened to anyone.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: I read that somewhere.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, it was just like weird cases.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Speaking for a friend.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: Exactly, I think it was again from you.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: I heard it where it was.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, being flooded makes total sense.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Ton of neurotransmitters are flooding your system.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: That's causing this sympathetic type of reaction, and then logic and rational conversations is not really at the peak of performance level.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: How long does it take usually for the flooded neurotransmitters and stuff to flush out of your system?
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: So we say and you can find this in Gottman theory, they researched that it takes a minimum of 20 minutes 20 minutes.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: To bring that back down.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: So what's fascinating about that is how it turns on instantly and then it takes that much time to calm back down, right.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: Because emotions get ramped up real fast.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: Real fast.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: The interesting is okay, recognize that I'm feeling flooded.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: Let's take 20 minutes, separate for 20 minutes and then come back and regroup, and then at least 20 minutes worth of time.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, got it.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: Yes, and you have to.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: When I say 20 minutes, you have to.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: It has to be 20 minutes doing something completely different from thinking about the situation.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: So you can't spend 20 minutes like plotting destruction on the other person, Right?
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: That's not bringing you down.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Reorganizing your arguments against what you're going to say next.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: For 20 more minutes it's going to maintain your height and flood status.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: And what's interesting is if you think about in a very stressful situation, especially if it's long-term stress, like heaven forbid, a divorce or a really stressful job or something that takes a long time, or even like chronic illness or caregiving or something like that.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: So you think about how many times that system comes on and then how long it takes to come down.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: It's easy to see how people can get stressed like as a constant state and then be able to come out of it.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes total sense.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: Very similar to that too, with pain science when we have patients that come in that have chronic pain issues.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, and structurally everything seems fine, right, like, as an example, the car accident 13 years ago I've heard that a ton of times where it's like my back hurts really bad I was in a car accident 13 years ago the system, the nervous system we can't separate the mind from the body and the pain experience and there's a lot of neurological things going on where the threshold is definitely, the nervous system is like ready to send signals and like ready to activate because it's so used to doing that.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: So it's not functioning as appropriate or as the best it probably could have been for people who haven't been in that same situation.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: So it's not like it's fake, right, or like they're not like yo.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: It's real for you.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: Like pain is a real thing.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: The pain experience can't tell you like oh, I don't think you're a 10 out of 10 pain right now.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: You're a three.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: It's like well, how can you tell that?
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: It's like I don't think you're a 10 out of 10 happy.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: You look like you're a four out of 10 happy.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: You can't.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: You can't subjectively.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: Anyway, it's real for people and their situations.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: But anyway, it seems like those systems are set up to be on high alert, and hyper vigilance seems to be a word that we come across a lot.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: So it's very similar to the mental health space, too, is what you're saying?
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: Very similar.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: So there is a list of disorders called somatiform in the DSM five diagnostic statistical manual.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: It's like our psychology Bible for diagnoses, okay, but it's called somatiform disorders and it's where a person will go through a million different medical things and they have this chronic pain issue and they cannot find a medical reason why, right, so they've ruled out everything medical but this, this pain issue, is not going away.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: Then we know, we know it's emotional.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: So that's, and that is a delicate dance and tactful conversation that we have to have patients Very, but that usually, at least for my and I'm open to suggestions all the time, for sure it's like a process, like multiple sessions of physical therapy or whatever.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: And I would imagine from the mental health space too, it's not like one day where it's like we figured it out.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: It's emotional, like what?
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: No you're telling me I'm crazy.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: No, and what happens to people a lot of times is then they get anxious about being anxious, or the pain, like not finding an answer, then becomes painful, that in itself heightening all the other pain that's there, like right, there's an expression is once enclosure, oh yeah.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: There's an expression pain lives in the confusion.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: So when we can't Find why or the reason, we spin like all humans just spin.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: So to tell someone it looks like this might be an emotional source that what they hears.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: I am making this upwards, all in my head right hundred percent and this is why we say you know pain, real or imagined the imagine part doesn't mean that that we're making it up to.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: You know, we got bored on a Wednesday afternoon.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: It's the body is again.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: It's calling us back to pay attention to something that we are not gonna look at otherwise right, right, that makes total sense.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: It's an over a longer period of time.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: What you were saying is the hyper vigilance of the nervous system, or the emotional System is ready to act to protect?
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, and it's used to doing that.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: So Lowering that threshold over time is a process, but something we say is we have to shift your awareness that movement is a benefit and not a threat.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm and then highlighting the winds during whatever sessions we're doing, as I'm like hey, you just did all these exercises.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: You came in with a seven out of ten pain.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: What is it right now up?
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: Still seven.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: That's a great win, high five.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: You did a ton of stuff and it's not worse.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: So let's celebrate that win.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: And they're like well, okay, it's not supposed to be like I got you a moment, but more of like that's highlight that you were to do this stuff.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: And I will say when you.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: This is difficult for all humans and this is part of what therapy does or tries to do.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: We we call it poking holes in the cognitive distortions, like challenging thinking cognitive distortions.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because how I, all humans have a fear filter that's that's colored based on their experiences in life.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: So whatever I see is going through my fear filter and being interpreted in my brain Based on what I've experienced in life.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: So, whatever, whatever that history is, if I'm, if I'm seeing something and you're seeing something, we've got two different fear filters, which is often why people struggle with talking talking about stuff.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: But in therapy what we're looking at is Is that accurate?
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: Like we just question that a little bit, and there there's always two questions.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: We ask which is what's not working for you and what are you willing to do about it?
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: So most people can answer question one very easily.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: I'm sure same in your field, like I have paints pretty easy question Answer what are you willing to do about it?
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: That's where people get stuck right.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Because then the perception is, fixing this problem may be more pain than dealing with the pain is uncomfortable.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: Not physical discomfort, but just willingness to change and add, to adapt.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Yes looking for a result.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: And the fear of giving up perceived control.
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah so if my if I come to you and my pains at a seven, I'm thinking my pain is gonna be lowered, like that's what I'm here for.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: Right, I didn't maybe think that my distress tolerance for physical pain was actually what needed to grow, if that makes sense, yeah totally something we hear a lot with very driven Functional athletic people.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Athletes, especially right and then also weekend wars are just like they want to do CrossFit competitions or their training.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: They're exercising a lot and oftentimes I'd be like, oh, it sounds like it's part of your identity.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: So if you can't do that, then you're like your confidence, your whole world drops.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: But anyway, chronic back, chronic shoulder, chronic elbow, like what at knee issues and stuff.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: I'm like at some point, in order for something to heal, we have to stop effing it up over and over and over again.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: It's up to bleeding, and then we can rebuild.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: Yes, but at the meantime we can modify some movements and exercises and maybe even redefine in the moment what you would define as exercise or a workout, because right now it's just allowing things to continually be worse.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Yes, so it's something.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: We have to change something.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: If you don't change, nothing changes right.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: So there's a say right.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: So anyway, it's a.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: It's a tricky conversation sounds like let's just modify things temporarily to not make things continually worse, then we can allow things to settle down.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Then we can work on the things that caused the issue in the first place, with some movement pattern changes and manual therapy, all that stuff and then build from there.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: And then one other thing I usually say people, even LeBron, has to shut it down sometimes it's okay to shut things down.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Even Steph Curry, lebron, joke of itch at some point.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Sometimes they have to shut things down to allow things to settle down and then we have a great foundation we can build off of, versus just continually make things chronically worse.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, and I think that's where people, in their illusion of control, where they can't get out of their own way, like, if I, if I keep doing this, it'll, it'll get better.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: Like me, maybe not.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just wanted to go away, I just wanted to hear all the time.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Isn't that what everybody says all the time?
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: All the time Like what are your goals?
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Here's the other thing I hear that I wish I could get rid of entirely.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: When people come in, it's a what, what are you looking for?
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: I just want to be happy.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: It will never happen, because happy is an emotion that comes in and out like waves.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: It never stays.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: So there is no human on earth that is happy.
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: We have happy moments we have.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: We have contented people, we have grateful people, we have positive people, we have people that are satisfied with the decisions They've made in life and it's gotten them to whatever point.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: But nobody is happy, especially not all the time.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: That's really interesting.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: So it comes in like a happiness moment and then it wanes.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: And then a happiness moment and it wanes.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: I would imagine people would want more waves and longer waves of happiness.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: And maybe even the expectations of that, is unrealistic to expect that which is it's interesting, because usually, like if you look at Sports, for example, the people that suffer the most are the ones that win the most.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: Like you're giving up short-term comfort for long-term, for long-term gain right.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: So usually the athletes Michael Jordan, famous for winning with the flu.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: That is painful.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: How many people would have been like I'm out on this one?
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, have the flu yeah so I guess the great paradox or irony in life is, the more happiness we have is usually based on how discipline we can be in Distress, tolerance and pain tolerance, and how much can we put up with in order to get the happy things that most people don't get?
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, great.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: I was gonna ask you in order, like what are the suggestions and things that usually Recommend to people is like I want to be happy.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Well, it comes in waves Okay.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: Well, it comes in waves, okay, how can we increase those wave frequencies and that along the waves?
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: last, yeah, that that gets a little bit layered.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: So Me personally, I always go back to where's your ego out of balance?
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: Also, what does happiness look like to you?
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: Because some people use happiness as a form of.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: I just kind of want to avoid Anything that's problematic.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: Like I just kind of want to float through life.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: I don't want to have to deal with anything serious.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: This is the illusion of any kind of drug use, like I can take this drug and feel this way.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: If I am sad, I can drink and no longer feel sad.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: If I'm in a party, I can and I feel happy.
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: I can take this and I can feel happier, like it's.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: It's the illusion of controlling how we want to feel at all times.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: When we do that, everything else in life is piling up to become a mess, until one day we have to face it in the addiction world.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: So Back to your question of what do I do to be happy?
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: You have to scream.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: This is like the answer of life it is we're gonna get real phillips down.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: Take notes you have.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: Okay, nobody gets everything in life.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: Nobody ever.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: This is also the illusion of kind of how we think if I do this thing and make these decisions and Feningal things this way, I'm gonna get everything I want.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: It will not happen.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: It will never happen.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: So what you have to do is flip that and look at a what matters to me, like what are the priorities in my life?
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: The stoics say you start at the end of your life and you look back.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: So let's say I live to a hundred, god willing.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: What do I want to say that I accomplished?
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: Those things are the priorities.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: So now that I have my priorities, the things that matter to me what do I need to do in order to get those?
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: Let's say that I want to spend a year just traveling the world.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: What do I need to do?
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Well, I need money, I need to plan.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna not be working for a while, so there are things I have to give up now in order to get that, but the satisfaction is worth it to me.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: So we need to look at things a we have to prioritize and b we have to see everything as trade-offs.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: So there's no good or bad decisions, there's trade-offs.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: There's trade-offs like what are you willing to give up in order to get this?
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: right though.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: The willingness to be discomfort in the short term for the long-term game, yes, what?
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Fitness is a perfect example of that.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: Like exercise sucks.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: Like nobody likes training right and feeling terrible during the moment, but knowing if I do that consistently over a long term is a better benefit.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: That comes from that.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: When training for sports, same thing.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: I think that's the easiest one of these from my head to like Comprehend that yes, agree.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: So you look at Tom Brady.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: He is OCD about his diet, about anti-inflammatory diet.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Tom Brady is not eating Cheetos.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Trade off.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: He's missing out on life.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: Well, it depends on what you value.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: I'm eating Cheetos, I'm a Cheeset guy, I'm not gonna lie.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: Anyway, okay, I wanna go back to something you said.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: Well, okay, insecurities.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: I heard a really interesting quote one time.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: You told me your thoughts on this.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: It was like the biggest reason why people struggle with insecurity is because they compare their behind the scenes with everybody else's highlight reels, which is social media, I would imagine right.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: So that question would you agree with that?
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: And then what role would you have, would you suggest social media has played in the expectations of happiness and success and all that stuff?
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: So going back to the Stoics, they say that comparison is the thief of joy.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: So, and the more the things change, the more they stay the same.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: Stoics didn't have social media, but apparently comparison was still a thing back then because they had to develop a philosophy around it.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: So it's the same thing I would say again.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: It goes back to ego.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Why am I doing what I'm doing?
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: So why am I on social media?
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: Am I bored?
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of good uses for social media if we are tapped into those.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: So it's great for business promotion, it's great for getting a message out there.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: Some people do it just because they like the creativity of it, no problem.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: But if you're doing it because it's either covert bragging, like Humble bragging, Humble yeah.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: I don't know if humble bragging is a thing, but covert bragging of like I'm just in Brazil, then that's like why do you need everyone else to see that?
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: Why can't you just be there?
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, totally.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: It's for a different reason I would have.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Again, like I've seen a lot of photographers, they'll promote their photography on that great thing, because that's how other people find them?
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, of course.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: It's not a bad thing, but if you need for people to see you in a way that's different than how you actually are, that's a problem.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: And then I would imagine you would ask why would you need that?
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: What's your purpose for needing that in the first place?
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, so in psychology or in therapy we always go back to the why.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: We're like two year olds that never grow up.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: We're always asking why.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: My daughter's doing that all the time.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: All the time.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Yes, and I think what's frustrating about toddlers is like they're really looking for an answer and sometimes we don't have a why.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: And then that's when parents go to because I said so Like, but why do you say so?
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: We're kind of the same in therapy we're getting to the core stuff of yeah, but why?
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: So if you can answer the why and you are okay with that, why go on If we don't know why?
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: Or maybe it's a little, maybe it's a little ugly to look at really why?
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Maybe we need to reevaluate.
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Right, and I would imagine at that point it's very challenging for clients, people right, including myself to be like a real clear vision in the mirror.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: How does that usually go?
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: Vision in the mirror.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: When you get to that stage of conversation with people.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: Well, it goes one of two ways.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: They either bounce like, okay, we're done here I don't wanna do that no, we're good.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: You have to walk really slow, because that is when your ego is the most fragile.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Most vulnerable.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: So you have to take care with that.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: And that's when you flip it into.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: Rather than self-criticism or self-judgment, you have to flip it into self-compassion, because when we were talking about earlier that open-hearted state like if I'm gonna be really open-hearted about something and really look at what's there, that might be a little bit uncomfortable.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: So that's when we need to make sure we're not being too hard on ourselves, but be compassionate about what you see there, but be really honest about it at the same time.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: And then again, is this working for me, yes or no?
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: We call it the self versus the ideal self or the actualized self versus the ideal self.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: If I'm really looking at what I am versus what I wanna be, that gets a little bit.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: I think it's really vulnerable.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I could imagine.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: So you just you go very slow with it.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: That's very interesting.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: Well, another thing I wrote down I wanted to go back to that.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: You were saying about perspectives that shape.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: I mean a quote that I heard that was really cool.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: It was people's perspectives and beliefs shape their world.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: It could be a completely different world of perspective and beliefs based on other people's perspective and beliefs, and I could see there's a disconnect with conversations or just a seeing eye to eye with some people.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: It isn't in general.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: Would you agree with that, with perspectives and beliefs shape people's worlds and, with that being said, if they're not aware of that or knowing the fear filter is part of their perspective and then what they believe and that shapes the way they view in their whole world.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: What are your suggestions on that of how do you navigate those conversations when it's like is this imagined or is legitimate, or is it more distorted?
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good question.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: So one of the parts of being connected as a human is being curious.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: So if I have a client or a friend or a family member and they're seeing something totally different than how I'm seeing this, I'm gonna stop caring about the fact that we have a difference and I'm gonna start getting curious about their perspective and with that I'm gonna need a whole lot of empathy, which empathy and ego don't go well together.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: You could imagine.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: So we have to put our own egos aside a bit and then get curious as to why do you see things the way that you see things on your end, and then a lot of empathy for just imagining what it might be like for them.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: And then I don't have to agree with you, but at least I'm starting to understand why you see it that way.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: So then we can talk about again what do we do about it.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: It's kind of a thing Like what's working for me, what's not working for me.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: But I think they say, like the doorway to connection is vulnerability.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: It's really that.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: Vulnerability is really curiosity, like getting my.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: I'm no longer trying to convince you to see it my way.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: I gotta put myself aside a little bit, and if both people are able to do that, then we've got a negotiation and a whole lot of understanding.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Right, that makes total sense.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: But convincing you to see the things of the way I do, and then also the frustration of like, well, why don't you see the way things the way I see it?
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, but rather let me add a curiosity, compassionate curiosity.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: How do you see this?
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying?
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: Exactly because, in order for us to stay connected, I need to understand you, and that's how I understand it.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: However, this is why most people don't do it.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: It's much more comfortable for me to convince you to see it my way, because then we're living in my world and I'm much more comfortable in that world.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: That makes total sense.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: I think the and, like I said, by no means experts in this field.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: I think the first time reflecting that I was exposed to this kind of perspective and thoughts was the Enneagram.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: Yes, it was like yeah, and a mentor of mine.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: The way that he would put it was like it's the lens in which everybody else will see the world and then maybe getting an idea of what their lens is like for their perspective's, beliefs in their world.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: So if they're acting a certain way or maybe how to approach them or conversations and stuff like me and my wife have gone through this stuff of like Enneagram and trying to deep dive and empathetically look at their lens, Like why is she acting this way?
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: Or why is Kyle acting that way?
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: And then it ends up being not a great resolution, right, but anyway, I thought the Enneagram was really cool and it's like the lens in which you see the world.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: Would you agree with that?
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: Like with the Enneagram?
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: I love the Enneagram and I love it for any kind of relationship.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: It works also really well for parents and kids and it goes very well with the five love languages.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: If you can learn somebody's Enneagram number and how your number relates to their number and then love languages that go with that, you've got a good foundation for at least talking about something there.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: The other thing that I like about the Enneagram is it doesn't necessarily it gives an explanation for maybe why we do things without a mental health label on it.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: Not everything is a mental health diagnosis.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: So like a six, for example, it's like the fear driven kind of personality.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: They call it the loyalist, but there's a lot of fear associated with six.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: That's not necessarily doesn't mean you have anxiety, but we just see things that-.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: With their lens.
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: It's just their lens, and if what I also like about it is if everybody was the same, it'd be really boring.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was thinking about that.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: I was like imagine having three wishes, and one of them was I wish everybody had the same political views.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: Help like nothing would get done, right Nothing would get done.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: We have to, unfortunately that drama has to be there, right.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, yeah, and there's a part of us that just loves the drama.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, drama sells right.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: That's why news is still on news.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: Drama sells.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: That's really interesting.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: We'll have another whole, another podcast on the A&A Gram.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: For people who aren't familiar, it's a really cool thing.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: But I've really enjoyed that and also our conversations.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: It allows us, from our physical therapy practice, to maybe speed read or at least get a little idea of where they're coming from.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: That's gonna dictate or shape our conversations and our approaches to some things, Because I'm gonna talk to someone who's an eight way different than a six.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: And way different than a one, because, you know, the harshest critics are ones.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, self critics for sure.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: So I love that.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: But anyway.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: So I really think that's cool and we'll have a whole another conversation on just the A&A Gram.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: We can deep dive in maybe all nine types briefly, because it can go.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: I didn't know this.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: There's like conventions on the A&A Gram and societies and I'm like this is cool.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm gonna base my life completely off of it, but it goes back to the balance.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: You balance, balance exactly.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: And I tell you this is also true in the psychology world.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: Everybody's got a different theory, Like psychology is just made up of different theories.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Try this, see if it works.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: Everybody wants their theory to be the thing.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: It's just a theory.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: Right, right, Makes total sense.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: Okay, changing gears a little bit.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: So I got introduced to a concept called imposter syndrome A couple of years ago.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: I'm really exposed when I try to dive into my own practice, which is a challenging thing because of the fear of failure, the fear of shame tucking my tail.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: I have to walk back to my previous job and be like, oh, that was cute and you just failed, and then all the public criticism that comes with it.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: But anyway, imposter syndrome being something that was exposed to me, I'm like, oh my gosh, just makes total sense.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: Share it with everybody.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: Imposter syndrome from your end.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: So from the psychology or the therapy standpoint, imposter syndrome is just somewhere.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: I've learned that I don't belong where I want to be.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: So I have this dream right that I wanna be business owner, I wanna be whatever, as soon as I get there, I don't belong here.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: And it's just a matter of time before somebody finds out that I don't belong here and I have.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: I'm fraud.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: I have no idea what I'm doing.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: Give it a minute, this guy is literally gonna fall.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: So it goes back to the anxiety thing.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: There's a couple of thought processes that go along with imposter syndrome perfectionism, people pleasing and procrastination.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: Usually we fall into some of that.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: So there's also this People pleasing procrastination and perfectionism.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: Perfectionism they got it.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: Yes, because the perfectionism is if I do everything perfectly, I can't fail and you can't find anything to criticize about me, so we're good here.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: Obviously, we know that's not gonna happen.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: The people pleasing is if I.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: People pleasing is nothing other than my efforts to control your opinion of me.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: So if I people please you and make you happy all the time and you're never mad at me or I actually control you through.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: People pleasing doesn't last very long and most people see through that.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: By the way, we also people pleasers end up saying yes to things they're not really okay with, so they end up very angry down the line.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: And then procrastination is I want this, I want this thing that I'm scared to have.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: So we end up not giving up or quitting.
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: but we're gonna put that off.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember I heard from school and stuff or looking back, procrastinating on projects or homework or whatever it's the.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: It sounds like what you're saying.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: It's like the fear of I don't know what I'm doing yet and I don't wanna start then.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: Yes, and we're not sure how this is gonna go.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: So this is why the imposter syndrome is very common in the beginning, and the more wins we get under our belt, the more confidence we have.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: So it's like, okay, maybe I do belong here.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: But it's really just that fear thing.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: I can, if you want, I can talk to you about change triangle and what to do about it.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, 100% Okay.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: So I'm gonna, I'm gonna diagram this, so I can, so I can explain it yeah perfect and then if you're listening, I'll say it in a way that you can follow and you're listening.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: You can also get the book.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: It's Not Always Depression, that explains it.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: Really good book, Interesting title.
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so, yeah, and I would agree with it in a lot of ways.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Okay so, change triangle.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: You're gonna start with it's an inverted triangle, okay, so you're gonna.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: You're gonna do it upside down, so you have whatever the flat part up top and then you have the pointy at the bottom and then what you do is on the left side.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: You're gonna list anything you're doing that makes you avoid feeling.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: Okay, so we call this the defenses, so anything that avoids feeling.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: So procrastination, actually all three of those things the procrastination, the perfectionism and the people pleasing these are all things that I do so that I don't avoid feeling.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: Now, the inhibitory emotions go on the right side, okay, and there's only three of them there's anxiety, shame and guilt.
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: Okay, so these are what we call inhibitor emotions and they keep us from feeling what's actually going on, which is what we call the core emotions, and that's what we put down at the bottom of the triangle, at the point.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: Okay, so somewhere we have learned that if I do these things perfectionism, people pleasing and procrastination then I am not going to have to look at or feel the inhibiting emotions or the core emotions.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: Okay, so the feeling under these three defenses is anxiety.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: Okay, so the anxiety is an inhibitor emotion which is keeping me from feeling a core emotion.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: So core emotions are fear, sadness, anger and, believe it or not, joy, excitement, oh, and then disgust is a negative one.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: I think the reason why I'm familiar with some of those is the movie Inside Out, Disney.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Yes, I love that movie.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: Yes, Pitching the fields.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: I used to show that movie in groups and in rehabs all the time.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: All the discussions that came out of that movie.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: It's a great movie.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: Awesome.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: Yes, so you're right.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: Cool, those are the core emotions.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: they're in the movie Okay, and you can show that to the camera.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: I think you should be able to see it.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: Can you see that?
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, perfect All right.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: So now, now I've got my core motions.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: Now, past that, what I want to get to is an open-hearted state, all right.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: And in the open-hearted state, what that is is it's connection, curiosity.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: There's a bunch of other ones, and then the one I'm after the most in business is clear, because if I'm clear, I can make a decision.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: I'm not swirling around in fear, okay.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: So now, with this, let's say, imposter syndrome, so you can give me an example.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: So let's say, I recognize that I'm procrastinating, perfectionism, people pleasing and I have anxiety.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: So let's get, let's go straight to the core motions.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: And I would imagine with imposter syndrome, the two core emotions would be fear and possibly joy.
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: Because if things work out really well, am I going to feel guilty about that?
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: Probably if I'm surrounded, maybe, by some people that aren't doing as well as I'm doing.
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: Interesting, so like family, close friends and stuff.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: The crab, the crab kind of effect, yes, where they pull people, crabs won't let people, won't their colleagues, get out of the cage.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: Exactly Right.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: They pull them back in.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: They pull them back in.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: So feeling guilt that if you do make it out, then they're going to be like why would you leave me?
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: Or fear of rejection or relationships lost.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, so it can be perceived.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: Abandonment with other people.
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: They did a study a while ago about like why women don't apply for more promotions and it's because women bond horizontally.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: Men look up, so men are always looking for to next step.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: Women bond with the people they're around, so there's fear that if I'm suddenly the manager of the people that I bonded with, Remember people mad or abandonment?
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, lost relationships.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: Yes, so there's a hidden fear of joy A hidden fear of joy.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: Yes, and a hidden fear of excitement that this thing that I'm doing is going really well and maybe the people around me aren't doing so well, or maybe they don't have the opportunities to do what I'm doing, or whatever.
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: So there's a fear of a little bit of disconnection there.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, so fear and joy would be the two.
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: So, if we look at, what am I fearful of?
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: Possibly failure, possibly what else.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Rejection.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, rejection is a big one.
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: Shame.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: Yep, shame would be the inhibitory emotion.
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: So I'm afraid if I do this thing, blah will happen.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: So yeah, failure is a big one.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: And then, if failure happens, people's opinions, what they see of me, all that kind of stuff.
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: So then what we do is we look at, we face those fears.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: And once we come face to face with the actual fear is so, let's say, my fear is failure and I'm worried that if I fail, people are going to judge me, criticize me, make fun of me.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: Nobody's ever going to give me another chance.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: I'm ruined, right, let's say that happens.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: I have two options.
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: I can either try something else, or I can go back to a nine to five, or I can not try all together and just go to a nine to five.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: But when we face the fear, then what we're looking for in an open-hearted state is to make a clear decision.
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: So let's say, my fear of failure, I have to shut my doors and go get another nine to five.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: Is that worth trying?
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: I'm going to say yes.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: So then, in an open-hearted state, I understand that failure is a risk, but I want to do this anyway.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: So it brings instant clarity into the confusion spiral.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: Interesting, does that make sense?
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Similar situation.
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: I've run into people, patients and stuff clients that really want to make a change in their health.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: They're overweight and they want to lose weight and they want to go on a pathway for improved fitness, health, wellness and body, physique, body fat percentage, all that stuff that comes with, and then be happy, more confident and some things I've heard in the past.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: Well, oftentimes I've seen them, though that demographic fizzle out and stop, or it's like well, that's not me, I'm not going to eat.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: Well, right, Because that's not what I do Anyway, does this kind of thing apply similarly?
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: Very much so.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: So if we look at what are we doing to avoid feelings, let's just say that an overweight person has a food addiction or a lifestyle.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: Usually, when you have an overweight person unless there's other health issues that we don't know about, right, because there are some, of course, or medications that contribute, so, ruling those things out let's say that it's lifestyle.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: So if I am choosing unhealthy food and I'm just kind of watching TV or living a sedentary lifestyle, a lot of that is avoidance.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: A lot of that is just going to kind of sit back here.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: Because of why.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's the individual question, but usually it's because there's an identity somewhere.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: They did a big study with morbidly obese people back in the 1990s.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: They did this diet, exercise thing.
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: Everybody lost weight and as soon as they were out of the program they gained it all back and all the doctors went back and looked at why and all the stuff.
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: And there's one doctor that went back and he did in-depth interviews with these people and just looked at, like what caused you to go back to this.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: What he found is that most of them had childhood trauma and so their identity was if I'm thin and people want me around or I become more attractive to some people or whatnot, I actually become vulnerable to predators.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah so, and I've seen this quite a few times where people know they need to do something, either with health or weight, or even just the idea of I'm sitting in my house too much like I need to go out and socialize.
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: There's 90% of what we do is subconscious, so this isn't like a conscious thought, but there's something about moving forward.
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: There's a danger attached to it, and so figuring out what that danger attachment is, or perceived, or fear that's usually what keeps people from sticking with something that they either want to do or know they should do, but can't get with it.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: So there's a okay.
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: So it kind of keeps pulling them back subconsciously to an identity, almost, and being overweight.
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: It's the same thing even in addiction, like when you go to an, a meeting.
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: I am an alcoholic.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: That's an identity statement, so sometimes being an alcoholic is the only thing I know that I am.
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: So I don't know who I am as a sober person that lives life, but I know who I am as an alcoholic.
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: So even though I don't want to be one, I don't want to live life in that way.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: Humans will always gravitate back towards what's familiar as well.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: It's uncomfortable right, uncomfortable, what they're familiar with, yeah, interesting.
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: So they're very similar with athletes that I've worked in the past high-level athletes right, previous professionals and stuff and they've always had their knee pain right.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: It's mighty, I'm like it seems.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: Like I'm asking you is that similar in some kind of fashion of there's like an identity in their injuries?
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: It's like makes them who they are almost and there's a marriage to their injury that they maybe don't even want to get better Is because they get the support and attention from that just more support and if they are still injured then they're still kind of in that familiar, comfortable athletic field state where if they're then they get better.
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: Then they're kind of left behind.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: There's a very tricky and kind of controversial aspect of I'm just going, the trauma right here and some injuries can be traumatic, like my life is different afterwards than it was before, especially if I'm an athlete.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: There's something called secondary gains where if I give up this trauma, I'm giving up something else that's attached to it.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: That may not be negative.
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: So, for example, we saw this a lot in rehabs where when somebody is at their worst, the whole family shows up and everybody's very concerned.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: People call how are you doing?
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: And I've had people tell me the minute I am better, they're all gonna go away.
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: So not saying that's the same as a knee injury, but is the?
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: And I don't wanna say, am I getting something out of it?
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: You have to be really careful how you ask that question, of course, but there's something that is keeping us in this state of pain.
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: That may be I don't wanna say benefiting.
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: Again, you have to be very careful with the word choice.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: But why are we here?
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: Satisfying a need.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's something else going on, that if the knee injury goes away and I'm a fully functioning person, something else goes away with that.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: And this is why we teach people be aware of what you need, what you're not getting and how to ask for it.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: Like, is there a way of letting go of the unhealthy thing and then asking for the thing that you do need?
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: And that goes back to the vulnerability issue.
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: So if my knee pain goes away or this illness goes away, all the love and support I'm getting from all my family members and friends will go away and I'll be alone and lonely.
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: Or the fear that they'll go away.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: Or suddenly I'll be expected to do things that maybe I'm not okay with doing.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: I think for a lot of athletes they are in a lot of situations they can be the golden child.
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: So if we, the pressure can be kind of tough.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: So if this knee injury is healed, okay, back to the tennis court.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: You go and we're winning now.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: So maybe I'm burned out on tennis, Like maybe I need a break, Maybe I don't wanna be Right.
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: I've again, I'm not a professional in this field by any means.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: I feel like I have seen that, knowing what you're saying.
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: Now it's been exposed Like all this makes sense.
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: And youth athletes, where they're not forced but expected to play sports, that maybe they don't like Football, when their parents are kind of like really pushy or just like I want the best for them, of course, and they're like oh, I have my knee hurts again, my back hurts still, I can't play, sorry.
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: It's like what's going on, right?
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: So they're seeing all these professionals and medical health professionals, all this stuff, and it's like this doesn't make sense.
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: Why is your knee still hurting?
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: I'm like wait a second.
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: Do you enjoy playing football?
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Do you wanna play?
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: football Right, and that's usually a conversational.
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: I mean like if we're just working together, I'm just having conversation right, Cause I'm not a mental health therapist professional by any means, but if we're one on one and just getting to know the kid, you know what I mean.
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: It's interesting some of the responses I've gotten.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that gets interesting.
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: And then as a kid you can't really say you know, depending on your age, you know teenagers are a little bit different, but as a kid you can't really say hey, I'm feeling like there's too much pressure.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know what that means.
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: Like yeah, totally, it just comes out as in like I can't play right.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: Yes, my knee hurts Exactly.
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: That's really interesting.
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: Well, I guess.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: Last question with the imposter syndrome.
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: Clarify again where do you feel like that comes from?
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: Like where does it?
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: Where is it born out of?
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: I think two places insecurity is the easy answer, but security also comes from experience in a way.
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: So I think imposter syndrome, in my opinion, is a normal part of the journey when you're starting something new.
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: I don't have a 30 years experience in being a professional tennis coach.
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm just starting.
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: Like maybe I kind of don't belong here, yeah.
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: And the thing about coaches.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: It's very interesting.
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: I was.
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: I was watching Untold.
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: It's a series on Haven't seen that yet, yeah.
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: They did the one.
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: Front is good oh it's so good.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: They did the one with Urban Meyer and when Tim Thiebaud played for the Gators amazing that that I could watch that show like 10 times over and see something new every time.
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: But every coach has a coaching philosophy and so I think when you step into a role like coach and here's why people love football so much you have to make a decision with every play.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: In a lot of sports, like basketball, for example, you're up and down the field field, you're up and down the court constantly.
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: With football, you have to make a decision every play.
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: So everybody's sitting at home like is he gonna run, is he?
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: gonna pass.
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: What's he gonna do?
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: So that's like the excitement of a lot of the game.
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: So in coaching you are making constant decisions based on your coaching philosophy of what's gonna work.
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know what's gonna work until I start doing it.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: And, as you know, if you're a football fan, high school is very different than college, college very different than pro.
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: So if I'm a coach, that is, in this new position, at a new level or even in a new conference, south is very different from like football in New York is very different than football in Texas.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: So is what I do, going to work here?
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: I think it's part of the big question mark.
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: And then it's like flying an airplane we know where we're going, don't know what turbulence we're gonna hit along the way.
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: And am I gonna be in tune enough to figure this out as we go?
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: And handle it and handle it, have the experience, knowledge, competency, skills and talents that handle it on the way.
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: I would imagine that's the anxiety that comes in with it.
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're gonna get blindsided by something, and when you're the top decision maker, the buck stops with you.
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: Right, interesting, cool conversations.
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate you coming in.
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: We'll end it there for right now.
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: We'll have you back for sure, if you're open to it, we'll get into the Enneagram.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: We'll get into more of the sports, psychology stuff.
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I appreciate you coming in and if for let people know where can they find you If they wanna work with you, if they have more questions on this stuff, where can they?
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: find you Website is tranquilsolecounselingcom tranquilsolecounselingcom.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: That's the easiest place.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: Just Google, just Google, cool.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: And if you have any questions for me and other things that we can maybe work on, you can always find me at athleterestorationcompanycom, on Instagram at athleterestorationco, or email us at teamatathlethrccom.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: But we're looking forward to the next conversation and we'll catch y'all next time.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: Hey, hold up.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: As you know, we're a small local practice and we don't run any ads or something on this podcast, but it would mean the world if you could share, write a post or word of mouth recommendation for somebody just like you that's athletic and active, that wants to live their dynamic lifestyle and pay some good karma and pay it forward to somebody else just like you and, who knows, you could change their world and a 10 second review could be that avenue.