Latest / Machine Dreams / Can AI Replace Your Rabbi Or Pastor? Two Faith Leaders Answer Honestly
Transcript
- speaker-0: Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Machine Dreams. This is the show where we'll talk all things about AI and how they're shaping and even reshaping our present and our future. Today's episode will be different, just a little different. You know, we spent a lot of time on this show talking about AI through the lens of technology, business and infrastructure, how it's changing companies, industries and economies. Today, we're stepping into a different domain, faith, community, and meaning. And that's because AI isn't just showing up in boardrooms or product roadmaps anymore. It's also starting to appear in some of the most human spaces we have. Because if AI can answer any question anywhere, anytime for anybody, what then happens when people start turning to it for guidance that used to come from faith? I am Collorly Samuel, a DevIO Technology Analyst covering AI, cybersecurity, and enterprise technology. And as always, I'm joined by the fabulous Delectable and one and only speaker-1: Wow, I'm Leah Stern, communication strategist and venture capitalist working with AI companies and investors across the US, UK and Israel. Sam, thank you for that beautiful introduction as always. I'm very excited about today's ⁓ show and I it's very fitting considering we're around the Passover holiday, the Easter holiday. So I'm really looking forward to this. I also really like your ⁓ shirt there. I think that's the machine dreams. speaker-0: You're welcome, of course. Exactly, exactly. ⁓ know, my fashion designer thought to do something nice for me and so sent this captain with a logo and when I saw it, I was like, wow, really looks good. You can get one, you know, I can get it to you in London if you want. speaker-1: would love that. Send it my way. Okay, so today we're talking about something that doesn't get nearly enough attention in the AI conversation. It's religion. A lot of the discussion around AI focuses on productivity, risk or economics, but AI is now showing up in places that are much more human. How people connect, how communities are built and how meaning is created. And that raises a different kind of question. What happens when one of the oldest systems in human society, faith, meets one of the newest technologies we've ever built, AI? We're joined by two guests who are thinking about this from very different perspectives. First, we have Rabbi Bensi Sudak. He's Rabbi of Chabad of Hampstead Garden Suburb. Chabad is a global Jewish movement focused on community outreach and making Judaism accessible and relevant to people of all backgrounds. Rabbi Bensi comes from a family deeply rooted in that tradition and previously served as media director for Chabad in the United States. He later became chief executive of Chabad Labavitch UK, where he helped expand its presence across the country, bringing a more open, welcoming and joyful form of Judaism to communities that may not have experienced it before. We're also joined by Pastor Tomiwa Emanuel, who is the resident pastor at Celebration Church International. in Ibaduwa, Nigeria. I hope I got that right. Pastor Tomiwa is also a gospel artist and voiceover professional with a decade of experience working on global campaigns. Check out all of his videos online. They are just extraordinary. Together, we're going to explore how AI is becoming part of religious life and what that means for inclusion, access, and community. Rabbi Bensi and Pastor Tomiwa, welcome to Machine Dreams. Thank you for being here. speaker-0: Thank you very much for having me. Thank you so much once again for joining us. know, religion is perhaps one of the oldest and most enduring human systems that we have, ⁓ while AI on the other hand is, you know, relatively new, I mean, as opposed to religion. But from where you stand, from where you both sit, when did you first start seeing AI show up, you know, in religious life in a meaningful way? All right, maybe I'll go first. I think I really started noticing And just by the way, as you said, Leah, I'm a voiceover artist. And so one of my abilities is, you know, voices and accents. And so for the sake of this call, I will be adopting my American accent just for the sake of communication. One, I think last year, probably, I started really seeing, and maybe that's because I'm sort of in a bubble when it comes to ministry, but I started seeing a rise of AI tools, especially in the use of ⁓ chat, GBT and all the likes, you know, for ⁓ research and information gathering. And so for me and my personal experience, it's been pretty recent, just last year, I would say. speaker-1: And Rabbi Sudak, where are you seeing AI show up in the work that you do? speaker-2: Well, the first are quite a lot of places. The first place I saw it was actually in a rabbinic group. was the first time I learned about AI was I think the week or the day that chat GPT opened. Someone just posted a link and said, had fun. We all obviously as rabbis, we tried seeing what it can do with sermons. And it was very impressive that chat GPT can write a sermon, but it was an impressive sermon. Okay, so it's impressive they can write a sermon, but the sermon wasn't that impressive. And there was also the hallucinations. We tested it by asking it who was the first rabbi who instituted eating matzah on Rosh Hashanah. There was never such a rabbi. Matzah is never eaten on Rosh Hashanah. And it gave this hallucination with a real rabbi's name with the name of his book. And a completely logical conclusion and why someone should eat matzah on Rosh Hashanah, which is on Passover. So the first thing we saw was hallucinations. It was fun. And more recently, a lot of rabbi team, I'm on a WhatsApp group of AI for rabbis. ⁓ there was just a, and this, lot of guys are using Claude to write apps for things. So for example, a month ago was the Jewish holiday of Purim. And one of the things we do on Purim is we get together and hear the story of Esther as it's known, the scroll of Esther, and it's read together in the synagogue in Hebrew and it's hard for people to follow along. So one rabbi wrote an app on Claude that you download, your community downloads, you give them a code, and as you scroll, it scrolls on all your community's handsets. So guys, people are using this for, it's quite enhancing and it's the different, so this wasn't to answer questions, but it was rabbis using it for coding, et cetera. speaker-1: So we talk about how AI can be used perhaps in the job side of things, but Pastor Tomiwa, I'm curious, do you think AI can help your congregation and people trying to get closer to God? Is it going to hurt or is it going to help? speaker-0: To be honest, I think that ⁓ it's one of those things where there has to be a very solid balance, right? We cannot run into the risk of stunning technology and advancement, but at the same time, there's a reason why God wants a relationship with man, right? And if we decide that we no longer need to do the seeking, we can just use technology and it just bridges the gap. I think it can make the job easier. It can start the journey, you know, sort of like how you might need a little push to maybe, I don't know, push a boat into the water and then you still have to paddle. So the way I see it, I think anybody who's using, you know, technology, AI especially, of course, ⁓ in their relationship with God, they have to make sure that it's not replacing the dependence on God and the journey in the relationship where AI can just make things happen really fast in one, two, three seconds. And now you have the supposed answers. And Rabbi Bensi mentioned something about, you know, the hallucinations. And sometimes, you know, it's almost like AI is striving to please, to tell you something, to give you an answer. And where there are none, it might fabricate the answer. So I think it's important to possibly use it to start the journey, but not get to the point of dependency. and forget the importance and the sweetness, the beauty of the journey of intimacy with God, not with AI. I think it's really interesting what Pastor Tammiwad just said, and it's also really interesting what Rabbi said so far. But I do know that in my relationship with friends and acquaintances, a lot of people are using these tools, you know, to ask, to answer or asking these tools really pertinent questions about their lives, their faith, their spirituality. There are doubts and fears. And so I'm always curious, and I think this is a really important question to ask, especially I would like to direct this ⁓ to the rabbi. ⁓ Why do you think that that's happening? Would you say that's a failure of the community that was supposed to be there in the first place to be accessible to the people? And because they haven't had such accessibility, now they're turning to technology for the sock work that they might be looking for. speaker-2: I don't know necessarily if it's a bad thing that people are using technology for spiritual things. I want to echo what the pastor said about the relationship. ⁓ This AI can augment things in an amazing way. It can help, but I don't think it can replace. ⁓ And I think one of the good things about AI and I think it's incumbent on the religious community to develop used AI to develop tools that can help people with the right way. But one of the things that takes away the judgment a little bit, takes it removes the barriers. However, the danger of that is it removes the personal connection. There's an interesting story in the Talmud, a very interesting anecdote, how the rabbis were debating something and who should be who's right on a certain issue. And one rabbi caused a heavenly voice to come out and say that he was correct. Right? But the majority was against him. And the law that's followed is the majority, not the heavenly voice. Even though the heavenly voice may be technically correct, but it was the majority that was followed. And the reason is because it's not just about gathering the right information. It's about the human engagement with the content. human engagement with trying to come to a conclusion. So you had one rabbi who, in this case, it's like he used AI to give him the best possible answers. Maybe that's the best possible answer from an information point of view, but you've missed the point of the human engagement and the human journey in discovering that. So I see a very strong parallel with that story and using AI. just replace AI with prophecy, the same thing. Well, prophets were never allowed to rule on Jewish law for the same reason. They might have all the information on a prophet or point of view. They might be like AI, but it's missing that human journey of discovery, which is essential. speaker-1: You both have, I would say, similar missions in terms of wanting to bring people into the community, have people feel inclusion, have people be more in touch with their spiritual life. Have you used AI at all practically to maybe reach communities that wouldn't necessarily be low-hanging fruit? Pastor Tommy Waa has. Has it been a tool for you in ways of reaching people that you wouldn't normally have had access to? speaker-0: For me, I would say personally, maybe in a limited way, and this is what I mean for the work that I do. think community is so important. But for the most part, without, like the rabbi said, without that personal connection, there is a lot that you can miss out on. So for me, basically it's information gathering. You know, there's some sort of a community outreach. There's some sort of ⁓ a branch of what we're doing, you know, that reaches a different demography that maybe we haven't had experience with before. It can help with a little bit of, you know, research in preparation for that community building. But ⁓ I try not to rely on it. I try to use it to start the journey, just like I said, and what I prescribe for Christians to start the journey in terms of research, gather the information. you know, and say, I'm going to look over this and say, what do I see here? What do I think about this? Cross check that with any other thing that I know. And then I can make an informed decision. But I try not to lean on it for my ministry work. speaker-1: And Bensi, what do you think? speaker-2: Okay. So lot of my colleagues are using it for creating content. Personally, I haven't loved what I've seen so far, but it's getting there. ⁓ It's getting there. Sometimes I feel that the content I create sometimes is a little bit, I use it to brush things up, but to replace it's always, it's still not there yet. But the general Jewish approach is that anything that exists is a tool. The more the tool is, the more powerful it can be used either for the good or for the opposite. And if God has organized things that these discoveries are revealed and made accessible, the only question we have to ask ourselves is how do you utilize it for the best and for biggest good? So it's not to shun those things. These are not things to be shunned. Not the internet, not the printing press. and not AI. I think AI has a lot of promising things and it's going to throw up some challenges, which is going to, I guess we'll get to that, is going to make us, we're going to have to answer those challenges and we have to think about them also. speaker-0: Great. My next question is for both the rabbi and pastor. We've talked about the advantages of these tools and agreed, you know, they're great for certain things. But I'm really curious about at what point does this stop being a tool and, you know, that it sort of starts becoming a kind of digital clergy. What are the risks that you're seeing? You know, do you ever see that happening? when this becomes a digital clergy, what are the risks? What are you telling your ⁓ members about AI and the risks? I'll start with you, Rabbi. speaker-2: Okay, so when it comes to clergy, there's two things, many things that a cleric, know, a rabbi, a minister would do. But from my point of view, there's two things. can have the informational side, which now it's hallucinating, but in a few years, it won't. So from an informational side of things, I think it can help people be more educated. And then maybe there's a risk if people just look at rabbis as as repositories of information of what I should or shouldn't do, then there's one thing. On the other hand, I think there's a lot more than just the knowledge and the information. It's Passover this week. And when we're in Rabbi school, one of the stories every Rabbi is told is that on Passover we have a seder. It's a night that we have a religious festival. eat a cracker called a matzah, it's a bread, and we drink four cups of wine. And lots of people come with questions and someone come to his rabbi asking, can I use milk instead of wine for my seder? And instead of answering the question, the rabbi went to the safe and took out money for him to buy meat and he bought wine and he gave him more money to put on a whole feast. Because the rabbi wasn't answering the question, he was answering the person. If the person's coming and saying, I have can I use milk instead of wine? He's saying that because he's had money for wine. If he doesn't have money for wine, he doesn't have money for meat because Jews don't eat milk and meat together. So this man is poor. And the question isn't whether he has milk or can eat milk. Rabbi, don't have any money. I'm starving. What should I do? And the rabbi answered. AI, in such a case, will say, no, you can't eat milk. Finished. And technically it would be right. But that's not the job of the rabbi. The rabbi didn't tell him whether you can eat milk or not. He just gave him money to buy what he needed. And so there's many, many other cases like that. So from the real pastoral leadership side, it's not the information. I think AI will help. It will augment, it will help the community be more knowledgeable, but it will also open up a big need for meaning and a big need for personal connection outside of the information library. And there, think rabbis won't be... In fact, we actually asked AI if it can replace rabbis. I'll let the pastor say and I'll read you what AI answered, what Chachie P.T. answered about AI replacing rabbis. speaker-0: Just like, you know, Rabbi Benz said, I think when we look at history and the history of religion, it's always been the case that God has intended or the design that God has put in place was that people would follow Him, but there would be a select few who would be, you know, both anointed and trained to guide the others. So they would be, in a sense, the guardians of the scripture. explaining and expounding, you know, the scriptural people who want to know the truth, want to know God. And there's a personal element of that that's so important because the rabbi, the minister, a pastor, you operate with a lot of, you know, understanding of the people coming to you, you operate with a lot of discernment. And so for example, some questions are asked, good, right questions are asked for the wrong reasons. Now, ⁓ a pastor, a rabbi can tell they can discern that and they can give a wise answer to that question. Whereas AI would just give you the book answer and that may give the answer but it won't help the individual who's asking the question. So I think it's one of the things that as much as possible rabbis and pastors and ministers, anybody who's in that clergy space who has influence over people who follow God. We have to continue to get people to understand that it is God's design for you to have guidance, for you to have, you know, people who are ordained into ministry, trained in ministry to guide you into the knowledge of the truth and your pursuit of God so that you do not rely on AI. Another problem that I think can come out of this is the more people no longer see the need for clergy, and that's not even from a perspective of ⁓ don't make us irrelevant, don't take our jobs. I think the more people feel like they don't need clergy anymore, gradually that's the channel to dissociate themselves from community, from religious community. Where you can just at your home, in the comfort of your home, on your bed, rip up your phone, your tablet, your laptop, and ask Chad JBT or Quad or Gemini a question and then you have an answer. But You're not being ministered to, you're not being discipled. And that has always been, you know, the system and the design of religion. ⁓ that I think would be my answer. speaker-1: That's beautiful because both religions, Judaism, Christianity, rely so much on being around other people and being in community. And I think we all agree on that. ⁓ Rabbi Sudak, what did Chachi Bt say when you asked it if a rabbi or a pastor could be replaced by AI? speaker-2: So said, AI cannot issue halachic rulings in the truest sense. It can analyze texts, summarize opinions, even identify patterns across the sponsor. But it lacks human judgment, moral responsibility, spiritual wellness that these decisions require. Jewish law is not about technical answers. It avoids understanding the context of the questioner, weighing competing values, applying tradition with sensitivity and care. These are deeply human tasks. AI might assist scholars in organizing sources. of offering preliminary insights, much like a social database, but it cannot replace the role of a trained rabbi who lives within the tradition, takes personal responsibility for the ruling and understands the broader impact of the decision. So while my AI may change how we study and access information, it will not replace the, ⁓ that's basically what it says. It echoes what the pastor was saying, what we're saying here. speaker-1: Amen. AI cannot replace this virtual leader. speaker-2: I think the danger is though, about what the pastor was talking about, is about loneliness and that people will think and that whether it's a therapist or whether it's a rabbi, whatever it may be, loneliness is a very big problem. It's already in there and that's something that has to be counted. But think AI is going to throw up questions of meaning and people are going to be freed up to with ⁓ when AI is going to take over a lot of human tasks, people are going to be faced with a question of where, what's life all about and why am I here? And that is where religion comes into answer. speaker-1: And that's just a very interesting paradox because, for example, ⁓ observant Jews shut down off technology ⁓ when the Sabbath arrives. It's sundown on a Friday. You don't use your phone. You don't use your computer. ⁓ And I imagine also when you're an observant Christian, you also need to unplug, so to speak. Can you be a deeply tech savvy person and still be quite religious and observant and faith? driven at the same time or do they contradict with each other? Pastor, to you first. speaker-0: I mean, I think with everything in life, we, no matter how deeply entrenched we are in something, there's always a time to kind of just unplug and just take some time off. You're in the army, you get some time off, you're an athlete, you're a basketballer, a footballer. Sometimes there's a time when the season's out and you you kind of withdraw. So I think even for a tech savvy person, the whole point of religion. is the discovery of, acknowledgement of, and the worship of God, which means that everything in your life can be submitted at the throne of God in consecration. So it's, I have this and this and this going on in my life, they're important. And I do the best that I can with them, I dedicate it to them, but not so much that they compete with, you know, my dedication to God. I think there should always be that time. For example, know, in church, when I'm preaching about consecration and sometimes just that, you know, like a personal retreat, I tell people if you're fasting and you're on social media, scrolling on Instagram, scrolling on TikTok and you're fasting, you're standing away from food, but you still have other means through which your flesh is being excited. you know, I think even for a tech savvy person, if it's your job, if it's your work, It's left to you to decide and design a system where you can withdraw for a short period of time and say, God, you have all my time, you have all of my attention during this period. And God is understanding and understands that you have work, you have a family to feed and you have all these other important commitments. But for the most part, that you can show yourself that these things are not your master. God is. These things are not your Lord. God is. And this is how you show it. You can put them in their place and give God some, you know, undivided attention. speaker-1: Rabbi Sudak to you. speaker-2: Okay, so I come from a slightly different angle. And you mentioned the Sabbath. The Sabbath isn't the day that we dedicate the one day where we're connected with God. Every day we're connected with God. And it's not just in the temple or the synagogue, it's everywhere. And it's not just when we're doing religious acts, it's when we're using the internet, when we're using going about our life and we're doing what we're doing now. we're going, everything that we're doing is part of our mission on this world. And therefore, The Sabbath is about taking that step back and saying, what is it all about? What are the six days all about? says, one seventh day you should rest, but the six days you have to work, they're just as holy as the seventh. And therefore, I don't think it's a contradiction. think these are exceptional tools and as long and they are therefore They are there, they exist in order for us to utilize them. Every single area of our life, whether it's technology, whether it's our job, whether it's everything else, all of it is directing us in a specific purpose on this world that only we can do. And God put us on this world to make those right decisions and to act as agents into making this world a better place. And therefore, the better we know technology, the better we can harness it, the better we can engage with it, as long as we don't forget who we are and why we use all these things, then the more power we have actually in our religious experience, then AI, any technology becomes a powerful religious experience, even if we're using it for our work, provided that our life is a mission-oriented life. And therefore, then everything takes on meaning. It's not a dichotomy. They go completely hand in hand. speaker-0: Great. Thank you, Rabbi. On the back of that, and my very last question, and very quickly, what should be the role of people of faith in terms of using technology to shape religion the right way? And this is what I mean. You know, we have AI researchers in education who are building tools specifically for, you know, kids in school and students in the university. What is the play here for people of faith who are like researchers, technology people? How can they use AI to build tools? Maybe Chagybiti for, I don't know, the Bible or what is the role of people of faith in terms of technology and religion? speaker-2: So I think there's twofold. Obviously, like I mentioned before, there's applications that you can do, technical things like my friends who made those apps on Claude. But I think there's a much, much bigger and more vital and more macro role that's important. And that is the premise upon which AI works. AI is going to augment and assist human beings in living their best life. But what is that? And the starting point can be either two ways. I can live life either what's in it for me or why am I here? And these are two directions that you can live life in. If you're living life and what's in it for me and if that's the framework and the basis and the premise upon which AI is thinking, then it comes into a very narcissistic, dangerous society. But if AI has a premise is that every human being is an irreplaceable person with an irreplaceable purpose and an irreplaceable mission, then AI can lead a person to lead a more purposeful life utilizing all of their talents, all of their abilities. Then life becomes more meaningful. Then AI enriches life and enriches the world and turns every human being into an agent of good rather than to a narcissistic self-serving agent. think researchers have a very, very role to play in this pivotal moment for humanity where AI can either take us in a self-serving direction, divided, lonely, or unify us with this purpose and helping each person find their unique purpose and making this world a real better place, which is my belief why God put AI in there to begin with. It's a tool he intends us to use to help us complete his world. speaker-0: And Pastor, tell me what would you have to say about that? Yeah, I agree. I agree with Rabbi Benz. I think that ⁓ AI did not take God by surprise. The invention of AI is something that God definitely saw coming. so there is we have to be careful to not misunderstand the role that it should play. So. For me personally, for example, ⁓ I see it. a lot as an aggregator, you know, so it brings a lot of things, makes research faster. But at the end of the day, before AI, we had research being done, we had theology being done, we had all of these wonderful things, you know, being done. So it's just about putting it in its place, giving it its role, just like the rabbi said, you know, it can play a supportive role, it can augment, it cannot become the dominant pillar that we depend on and that we look to. It cannot be the immediate response every time there is, you know, a sort of challenge and everything. You know, it has to be a thing where we understand this is just one more tool that we can, you know, employ in our search and understanding of the truth, in our relationship with God, and in our fulfillment of divine purpose. And that's the mindset with which I approach AI. And that's what I would prescribe for any religious person out there. Great. So there you have it. God is not anti-AI. But you just got to make sure that you give AI its place. Thank you so much, Rabbi Benziesudak and Pastor Tommywa Emanuel for joining us on the show today. It's been insightful. Thank you for having me. Exciting. And I'm sure a lot of our viewers will appreciate the time and the insights you've shared. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for having us. speaker-2: Thank you. speaker-1: Thank you both and wishing you a happy Passover and a blessed Easter. And thank you to everyone listening. If you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to subscribe and share the episode. See you next time on Machine Dream.