Latest / The You Project / #1757 Rise of the Machines - Dr. Bill Sullivan

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#1757 Rise of the Machines - Dr. Bill Sullivan · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: I get a team.
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Speaker 2: Tiffany Cook, Bill Sullian Kraig, Anthony Harp reporting in for
0:04
Speaker 2: duty just before Christmas. It is the twenty third of
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Speaker 2: the twelfth, the year of our Lord Annodominie, as my father,
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Speaker 2: my very Catholic father would say, in the United States
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Speaker 2: as we speak, I suspect it's the twenty second of
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Speaker 2: the twelfth in the PM AM. I correct, doctor Bill,
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Speaker 2: you are correct. Well, we are.
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Speaker 1: In the future for you, and let me tell you
0:27
Speaker 1: that so far it's okay.
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Speaker 3: That's good to hear.
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Speaker 4: I was very concerned about the future, especially you know,
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Speaker 4: just twenty four hours ahead.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, well yeah, I mean, look, we're here and it
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Speaker 2: seems to be okay, although things do seem to be
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Speaker 2: quite fragile in the States, with UFOs and things in
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Speaker 2: the inexplicable things in the sky. Did you take any
0:51
Speaker 2: interest in that? That's got quite a bit of my
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Speaker 2: ledge over here in boring little Australia.
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Speaker 3: Is that right?
0:58
Speaker 4: Well, weird things are always happening in New Jersey, so
1:01
Speaker 4: this didn't surprise me at all.
1:03
Speaker 2: Shout out to our four listeners in New Jersey. It's
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Speaker 2: now down to three. We just lost twenty five percent
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Speaker 2: what not that we not that we talk about this,
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Speaker 2: but UFOs I mean, which doesn't necessarily I mean UFOs exist.
1:19
Speaker 2: It just means there's something in the sky. We don't
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Speaker 2: know what it is, right, but what are the chances
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Speaker 2: is that there is? And I know this is not
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Speaker 2: your field, but you know, just your hunch, is there
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Speaker 2: ex extraterrestrial intelligence outside of us?
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Speaker 3: Hmm, yeah, that's a good question.
1:43
Speaker 4: I'm not so sure you're being a little generous and
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Speaker 4: calling our species intelligent.
1:48
Speaker 1: That's true.
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Speaker 4: I think I get your point. I think I get
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Speaker 4: your point. And you know, I've done a lot of
1:56
Speaker 4: reading on the subject. I love Carl Sagan's work as
1:59
Speaker 4: I was growing up. It was one of my inspiration inspirations,
2:03
Speaker 4: if you will, to go into a career of science.
2:07
Speaker 4: And he's always amazed me with his capacity to, you know,
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Speaker 4: express just how large the universe is. You know, billions
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Speaker 4: and billions of stars, galaxies. It's just extraordinarily, incomprehensibly large.
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Speaker 4: So I had a professor back in my college days
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Speaker 4: who was teaching physics and some cosmology stuff, and he
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Speaker 4: just said, it would be beyond comprehension that there's not
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Speaker 4: something else out there. There are just too many possibility,
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Speaker 4: too many other worlds. It probably wouldn't look anything like us,
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Speaker 4: but there must be some other form of intelligence.
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Speaker 3: Out there, I think he was.
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Speaker 4: He was quick to add that we are too boring
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Speaker 4: and primitive for any extraterrestrial species to have any interest
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Speaker 4: in whatsoever so far. So that's probably why we are
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Speaker 4: left with just speculating about UFO visitation. You know, there's
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Speaker 4: there's certainly no hard evidence that we've ever been visited before.
3:24
Speaker 4: And you notice that all those sightings started, you know,
3:28
Speaker 4: around the time we were starting to go to the
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Speaker 4: Moon and things like that, so that it tracks with
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Speaker 4: where our intelligence has been. You know, if you go
3:38
Speaker 4: look at ancient cave paintings, you see pictures of animals
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Speaker 4: and stick figures. You don't see UFOs in the sky.
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Speaker 2: M hmm.
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Speaker 1: That's interesting. That is interesting.
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Speaker 2: It's like, isn't it funny how we look at whatever
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Speaker 2: it is We look at through them without trying to
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Speaker 2: sound too philosophical or you know, weird, but we look
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Speaker 2: through through the window of our understanding and like, what's
4:03
Speaker 2: our what's my perception of UFOs?
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Speaker 1: Well, my favorite Martian kicked it off.
4:09
Speaker 2: You know, and all of that, you know, all of
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Speaker 2: those kind of and mark from Orc And you know,
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Speaker 2: it's funny, like we have this idea that somebody from
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Speaker 2: or somebody something from somewhere else will be vaguely familiar
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Speaker 2: to us but a little bit weird of shape or
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Speaker 2: I mean, who knows, maybe there's intelligence that isn't even
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Speaker 2: doesn't have a physical.
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Speaker 1: Body in the way that we think of it.
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Speaker 2: You know, it's like we think it's got to be
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Speaker 2: a version of us, but without a nose and maybe
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Speaker 2: three eyes, and maybe only four foot tall and probably
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Speaker 2: gray and definitely something shaped like you know, it's like
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Speaker 2: we you know, it's yeah, you're trying to understand something.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, if you watch Star Trek or Star Wars, of
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Speaker 4: course they're all hominids and they know English quite well,
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Speaker 4: which is pretty surprising even our metaphors and stories. So
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Speaker 4: we have a little bit of a pulsity of imagination
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Speaker 4: when it comes to what extraterrestrial life may be. But
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Speaker 4: as as you and I have discussed before, Craig, there
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Speaker 4: are so many fascinating creatures that we have yet to
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Speaker 4: characterize very well on our own planet. I mean, like
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Speaker 4: the ocean depths are an extraterrestrial world of sorts in
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Speaker 4: that where they're so little explored and there's so many
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Speaker 4: bizarre creatures down there, same thing under a microscope. You know,
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Speaker 4: we haven't cataloged anywhere near the number of microscopic creatures
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Speaker 4: that are on this planet, and when you look down
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Speaker 4: in great detail, they're extraordinarily interesting and have features that
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Speaker 4: we would never imagine because we don't live in those environments,
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Speaker 4: but they are tailor made for those sorts of environments
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Speaker 4: because they've been crafted over the eons by natural selection.
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Speaker 4: So it's a really cool concept to think about. But
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Speaker 4: I love the idea that you mentioned about like energy beings,
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Speaker 4: you know, something that is so far beyond the corporeal
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Speaker 4: existence that we are so familiar with. That's the sort
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Speaker 4: of stuff that I think is probably approximating more accurately
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Speaker 4: what could be out there.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, because we you know, like our idea of something
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Speaker 2: that is living or perhaps sentient, or perhaps has any
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Speaker 2: kind of consciousness or awareness, it's got to look like
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Speaker 2: either a human or an animal. It's got to have
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Speaker 2: a body, and it's got to ambulate a cross terror
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Speaker 2: firm and the way that we we do, you know,
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Speaker 2: it's like it couldn't be. Yeah, like trying to understand
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Speaker 2: life that doesn't look like an animal or an insect
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Speaker 2: or a bird or a human. Yeah, that's hard to
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Speaker 2: get your head around.
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Speaker 4: Well, what I think is much more likely given our
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Speaker 4: biological limitations in terms of leaving our planet. You know,
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Speaker 4: we will struggle with gravity, will struggle with pressure, with breathing.
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Speaker 4: Our bodies are not built to go you know, to
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Speaker 4: New Jersey, much less beyond the planet. Right, our bodies
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Speaker 4: just aren't suited for this. And you can imagine that
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Speaker 4: if life followed a similar evolutionary trajectory on other planets,
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Speaker 4: which I think, you know, the odds are probably pretty
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Speaker 4: reasonable something like that has happened. You know, there could
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Speaker 4: be beings that have those same problems that we face
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Speaker 4: with regard to space travel. Which is a long way
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Speaker 4: of saying, and a rather scary way of saying, that
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Speaker 4: anything that visits our planet is probably going to be machine. Okay,
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Speaker 4: it's going to have to survive the difficulties of space
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Speaker 4: travel and the time that it takes. So it's probably
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Speaker 4: going to be an artificial life of some kind. And
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Speaker 4: whether that's going to how that would react with a
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Speaker 4: species like our own is just fascinating to think about.
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Speaker 2: And isn't it interesting that you use the term which
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Speaker 2: we all do artificial life, right, because it's not a
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Speaker 2: life like ours.
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Speaker 3: Oh, that would probably be a little offensive.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like, well, that's all the official artificial. It's
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Speaker 1: not real. But I wonder if there is for one
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Speaker 1: of a better term.
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Speaker 2: I'm real sucker, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is artificial.
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Speaker 1: I'm not ye yeah, yeah, yeah, I wonder imagine that.
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Speaker 2: I mean, like Elon musk et Ol talk about, you know,
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Speaker 2: AI being close to conscious or aware or sentient sometimes
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Speaker 2: in the next five to ten years, being able to
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Speaker 2: in invert a commas, think for itself and.
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Speaker 1: Create for itself. I don't know if.
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Speaker 2: That's really true or really possible, but it's it seems
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Speaker 2: like that's the direction we're heading in.
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Speaker 3: I think it's possible. I don't know what the timeline
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Speaker 3: on that would be, but the sophistication of.
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Speaker 4: Artificial intelligence is just staggering, and it's growing exponentially, so
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Speaker 4: I think we'll probably hit that singularity sooner rather than later.
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Speaker 4: What the consequences of that might be remain to be seen.
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Speaker 4: So I think we should proceed with a you know,
9:35
Speaker 4: a healthy amount of caution because if we do create
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Speaker 4: machines that can think for themselves, we basically created a
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Speaker 4: new form of life, and it should be you know,
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Speaker 4: the questions of inherent rights and things like that are
9:53
Speaker 4: going to come up. Does it have the right to
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Speaker 4: reproduce itself? And if that, if we if we allow
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Speaker 4: to do that, it could overwhelm our species, you know,
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Speaker 4: maybe rather quickly, so it could change everything. And then
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Speaker 4: the Earthlings, the humans that made this form of artificial life,
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Speaker 4: will probably figure out a way to go visit other worlds.
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Speaker 3: We will be the aliens.
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Speaker 4: Okay, not we per se, but the machines that we
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Speaker 4: created will be the ones who are going out and
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Speaker 4: exploring and you know, perhaps colonizing other worlds.
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Speaker 1: Imagine if we actually create a new life form in
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Speaker 1: inverted commas, that essentially is the end of us.
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Speaker 2: Like we produce some non biological entity that you know,
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Speaker 2: can't get sick, can't get diseased, that doesn't need food
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Speaker 2: per sale, though it needs energy, I'm sure, but yeah,
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Speaker 2: imagine that's not beyond the realms of I mean, I
11:00
Speaker 2: know this seems ridiculous. When I used to hear conversations
11:03
Speaker 2: like this Even ten years ago with a bunch of
11:08
Speaker 2: the smarty pants people. I used to think that is
11:12
Speaker 2: these people are you know, fantastical, Like this is just
11:17
Speaker 2: complete bullshit.
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Speaker 1: This is never going to happen.
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Speaker 2: This is But now when I'm talking to chat GPT
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Speaker 2: like it's my second best friend, I'm like, oh, hang on,
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Speaker 2: the landscape has shifted somewhat.
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Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 4: Absolutely, it's pretty frightening what it can do already. And
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Speaker 4: you know, it's just going to get more powerful and
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Speaker 4: faster and more sophisticated, and it might get ahead of
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Speaker 4: us before we design proper regulations to reel it in
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Speaker 4: or keep it under control. I speculated in my book
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Speaker 4: Please to Meet Me. I speculated in our book as
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Speaker 4: kind of a joke, that humans might only be in
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Speaker 4: existence to serve as a stepping stone for the real
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Speaker 4: species that's going to take over the planet and the universe,
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Speaker 4: and that would be machine driven life, you know, with
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Speaker 4: artificial intelligence that is far superior than our own, and
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Speaker 4: that might really be a reality. And like you said,
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Speaker 4: what if we drive ourselves into extinction through the creation
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Speaker 4: that we make. I mean, yes, there was that was
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Speaker 4: basically the plot of Terminator, right, you know, we humans
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Speaker 4: basically did themselves in because they created these war machines
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Speaker 4: that turned on them because they got so smart. So, yeah,
12:36
Speaker 4: we could we could be headed down that road. And
12:39
Speaker 4: it's crazy to think that a movie that came out
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Speaker 4: in the late eighties, you know, just forty some years later,
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Speaker 4: seems like a very real possibility.
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Speaker 2: You've just given me the title for today's episode, Rise
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Speaker 2: of the Machines. Thank you for that, and thank you
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Speaker 2: to whatever franchise, whatever company might that.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. You know what, what else fascinates me is like.
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Speaker 2: Our very limited understanding of what is intelligence, you know,
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Speaker 2: and you know, for us, intelligence typically is for better
13:16
Speaker 2: or worse. We relate it to IQ. Obviously, it's a
13:20
Speaker 2: it's a range of things, that's not a single thing.
13:22
Speaker 2: But if somebody's got an IQ of one forty or more,
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Speaker 2: we call them a genius. If somebody's down around seventy
13:29
Speaker 2: or lower, we might call them mentally challenged or you
13:32
Speaker 2: know what it intellectually handicapped or whatever we want to
13:35
Speaker 2: call it. Right, but we kind of put intelligence in
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Speaker 2: this jar. And as you were saying, you know, you're
13:42
Speaker 2: talking about all the insects and the tiny forms of
13:46
Speaker 2: life that we haven't even classified yet. And you know,
13:49
Speaker 2: you put me and a shark in the ocean, Well,
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Speaker 2: the shark's much smarter than you know.
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Speaker 1: It depends.
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Speaker 2: I think intelligence is about an individual's capacity to survive
14:02
Speaker 2: and thrive or adapt dependent on the context, the situation,
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Speaker 2: the requirements of survival. Like, to me, that's more an
14:10
Speaker 2: insight into intelligence then whether or not I can do
14:14
Speaker 2: pie to one hundred figures or you know, decimal points
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Speaker 2: or whatever it is.
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Speaker 3: That's that's right.
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Speaker 4: And I think we have this stereotypical view of what
14:24
Speaker 4: intelligence is, but in my mind, it's a lot like beauty, right,
14:29
Speaker 4: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I
14:32
Speaker 4: think intelligence is in the eye of the beholder too,
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Speaker 4: because it's very contextual. We like to try to put
14:38
Speaker 4: metrics on it with memory and learning or maybe i Q,
14:41
Speaker 4: but that is an extremely limited view of intelligence. You know,
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Speaker 4: there's there's things like comedic genius, there's artistic genius, there's
14:53
Speaker 4: podcaster genius. Looking at you great.
14:57
Speaker 1: And you know, look I look at me. Thanks. Though.
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Speaker 4: You know, some people are really great with words. Some
15:05
Speaker 4: people are really great writing them, but they're terrible speaking.
15:09
Speaker 4: So this is what makes humanity function. More as a
15:14
Speaker 4: collective than as a single individual. We are at our
15:17
Speaker 4: best as a species when we join forces and come
15:20
Speaker 4: together combine our talents, we can achieve great things that way.
15:26
Speaker 4: I think this idea of a lone individual genius is
15:30
Speaker 4: very limited. There are certainly savants, people who can do
15:33
Speaker 4: extraordinary calculations in their head or have memory recall that
15:39
Speaker 4: is just staggering, and it really opens up some possible
15:44
Speaker 4: insights as to what's going on in the brain with
15:46
Speaker 4: respect to those particular biological functions. Yeah, but what we
15:52
Speaker 4: usually see in people who have an extremely well developed
15:55
Speaker 4: aspect of intelligence is that there's a trade off somewhere else.
16:00
Speaker 4: No one's perfect, right, So when a lot of these savants,
16:03
Speaker 4: they have social acumen difficulties, They don't interact appropriately in
16:09
Speaker 4: social settings. Many of them are autistic. Many of them
16:14
Speaker 4: have trouble with theory of mind, which is trying to
16:17
Speaker 4: interpret how another person thinks and feels that. That's a
16:22
Speaker 4: brain based activity, and there's obviously some people who can
16:25
Speaker 4: do it better than others. There's also other life forms
16:29
Speaker 4: that can do theory of mind very well. So that
16:34
Speaker 4: extends the definition of intelligence to other species as well.
16:38
Speaker 4: Species that we consider kind of lower than us on
16:42
Speaker 4: the evolutionary ladder. But I think we need to throw
16:45
Speaker 4: that ladder away and get back to something that you said.
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Speaker 4: It's all contextual. You know, if you can take the
16:51
Speaker 4: brightest person on the planet, you drop them in a
16:54
Speaker 4: tank with a shark, they're not going to look so smart, right.
16:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I sorry. Sorry.
17:01
Speaker 2: My training partner, the guy do the gym with every day.
17:05
Speaker 2: He's practically one of the a practical problem solving real
17:10
Speaker 2: world every day. Since I always say, if you're going
17:14
Speaker 2: to get stuck on an island or in some remote area,
17:17
Speaker 2: don't get stuck with me, because you'll be dead by lunchtime. Right,
17:21
Speaker 2: Get stuck with him, you know, because he will build
17:24
Speaker 2: you a small town by close of business.
17:27
Speaker 1: Right.
17:29
Speaker 2: He'll find water, he'll build shelter, He'll kill a couple
17:32
Speaker 2: of things to eat.
17:33
Speaker 1: Nothing cute, tiff, you know, just a snake or something,
17:38
Speaker 1: you know.
17:38
Speaker 2: And but but I'm things like that. I'm home completely
17:43
Speaker 2: like I'm the dumbest person in the room.
17:45
Speaker 1: But I you know.
17:47
Speaker 2: That pursuant to this, I was listening to a guy
17:51
Speaker 2: who you know quite well. This site Craigslist, t if
17:56
Speaker 2: have you ever heard of Craigslist. Yeah, yeah, it's like
18:00
Speaker 2: a really big thing in the States. It was one
18:02
Speaker 2: of the first. Correct me if I'm wrong, doctor Bill,
18:04
Speaker 2: I don't know. But it's one of the where people
18:07
Speaker 2: can go on and just find like anything from a
18:09
Speaker 2: babysitter to a second hand car, to a job, to
18:13
Speaker 2: some mirrors.
18:13
Speaker 1: For your motorbike tear or whatever it is.
18:16
Speaker 2: Right, you can And anyway, the guy that started that,
18:21
Speaker 2: I heard him interview the other day.
18:22
Speaker 1: His name is Craig Newmark.
18:25
Speaker 4: Do you know this guy, doc, No, I am familiar
18:30
Speaker 4: with Craig's list. It was very popular some time ago.
18:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's still around. It's still around.
18:37
Speaker 2: And he he he is a genius, but he's socially
18:45
Speaker 2: super clunky, and he knows it and he says it
18:49
Speaker 2: and he's like, I can't really read like. He's being
18:51
Speaker 2: interviewed by Theo Vaughn, right, who's a comedian, and you
18:55
Speaker 2: could not find two more different people. And there were
18:59
Speaker 2: times when the chat was actually awkward because they're so different.
19:04
Speaker 2: They didn't really get each other in the moment. And
19:08
Speaker 2: Leo's got a certain kind of comedic intelligence, but you
19:12
Speaker 2: wouldn't call him I mean this with respect. Typically super smart,
19:17
Speaker 2: he's not dumb, but it's like a particular kind of creative,
19:20
Speaker 2: comedic intelligence. And this other guy's got this, I would say,
19:24
Speaker 2: he's IQ's through the roof. But he's just very good
19:27
Speaker 2: at figuring things out. But to hear him talk about
19:32
Speaker 2: how the things that he can't do, things he's got
19:36
Speaker 2: no idea about, but his wife takes care of because
19:38
Speaker 2: she knows how to do that, how awkward he is
19:41
Speaker 2: in social situations and he only goes like he gets
19:45
Speaker 2: permission to not go to certain things she lets him.
19:48
Speaker 2: But yeah, it was so funny listening to him have
19:51
Speaker 2: that level of self awareness about where his intelligence and
19:56
Speaker 2: kind of intellectualizes, so to speak, and where it does.
20:00
Speaker 4: That kind of self awareness, I would say, is another
20:05
Speaker 4: aspect of intelligence. Yes, it takes a lot of you know,
20:11
Speaker 4: smarts to realize what your strengths and weaknesses are and
20:15
Speaker 4: to you know, to not be afraid to confront them
20:18
Speaker 4: or to play to those strengths. Emotional intelligence is a
20:22
Speaker 4: whole nother ballgame.
20:23
Speaker 3: You know, there are some.
20:24
Speaker 4: People who can really excel in life because of their ability,
20:29
Speaker 4: you know, to master emotions or read emotions and other
20:32
Speaker 4: people so yeah, I again, I think that's what, you know,
20:38
Speaker 4: one of the diverse things about individual humans or all
20:42
Speaker 4: these different strengths and weaknesses, and the trick we face
20:46
Speaker 4: as a species is coming together and finding people who
20:50
Speaker 4: can fill the gaps that that we have, you know,
20:54
Speaker 4: find people who do have the strengths that will neutralize
20:59
Speaker 4: our weaknesses, and then you can form really wonderful teams.
21:04
Speaker 2: Is there anything happening in the intersection of the study
21:08
Speaker 2: of genetics and infectious diseases, which is your wheelhouse unless
21:13
Speaker 2: I've fucked that up? And II Is there any kind
21:17
Speaker 2: of convergence.
21:18
Speaker 4: There artificial intelligence with respect to infectious data.
21:23
Speaker 2: With respect to research in genetics and infectious diseases and
21:28
Speaker 2: all of that.
21:30
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, in many different capacities. So I would just
21:35
Speaker 4: say in all of the sciences, just like many other businesses,
21:38
Speaker 4: it's really hard to get away from people who are
21:40
Speaker 4: utilizing these AI tools to generate writing, to generate text.
21:46
Speaker 4: So we're now having discussions of our students allowed to
21:50
Speaker 4: do this and to what extent can they use these
21:53
Speaker 4: tools to write their own papers or write their own exams.
21:59
Speaker 3: So that's that's a real.
22:02
Speaker 4: Cutting edge issue that we're struggling with right now, and
22:07
Speaker 4: you also have people who are utilizing these tools to
22:11
Speaker 4: help you design experiments and possibly write research grants. Now,
22:18
Speaker 4: that might come to a reviewer's conundrum because if you're
22:22
Speaker 4: reviewing these grants and funding is on the line for
22:25
Speaker 4: this work, and one person utilized artificial intelligence to come
22:29
Speaker 4: up with the ideas and one person did not, is
22:32
Speaker 4: there an advantage there that one person exploited that the
22:35
Speaker 4: other person didn't use. These are some thorny issues that
22:41
Speaker 4: we aren't quite prepared to face because the technology has
22:45
Speaker 4: evolved so much more rapidly than we've we've been able
22:50
Speaker 4: to put any sort of regulation on it. And at
22:54
Speaker 4: the end of the day, I think it's going to
22:56
Speaker 4: be valuable if we can use this artificial intelligence to
22:59
Speaker 4: generate really great innovations that can save lives or help
23:03
Speaker 4: us predict where the next pandemic or outbreak might occur.
23:08
Speaker 4: Utilizing machines in medical clinics that can identify breast cancer
23:14
Speaker 4: on images much better than a human doctor can. That's
23:19
Speaker 4: extraordinarily powerful, and I believe it would be unethical to
23:23
Speaker 4: continue using human eye sight when artificial intelligence is proven
23:28
Speaker 4: to be better.
23:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I worry a little bit about the
23:38
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is the right term, but
23:39
Speaker 2: like the cognitive and creative cost to the individual when
23:45
Speaker 2: all of their or a lot of their thinking in
23:47
Speaker 2: inverted commas and creating is being done by AI, what
23:54
Speaker 2: the cost of the individual may be? Yeah, like Weld,
23:56
Speaker 2: like there, you know, if all of my problems are
23:59
Speaker 2: being by AI, and all my questions are being answered
24:02
Speaker 2: by AI, and even the writing of my exam or
24:05
Speaker 2: the writing of my paper or the conceptualization of my
24:09
Speaker 2: business plan, like I'm not even fucking thinking of it.
24:11
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, it's like, what's going to happen
24:14
Speaker 2: to my brain? And my capacity might not not to
24:18
Speaker 2: find a resource to do it, but for me individually
24:22
Speaker 2: to think clearly, to solve problems, to be able to
24:26
Speaker 2: you know, interpret things, break things down, tell stories, be creative,
24:30
Speaker 2: communicate optimally.
24:32
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, I feel like that.
24:35
Speaker 2: That could be a negative kind of byproduct of using
24:39
Speaker 2: these tools, as great as they are.
24:44
Speaker 4: Yeah, it does raise some interesting questions because you can
24:48
Speaker 4: imagine that if.
24:49
Speaker 3: The more that we have machines do.
24:51
Speaker 4: For us, the less capable you know, we become over time.
24:56
Speaker 4: So for example, I hardly remember phone numbers anymore. But
25:00
Speaker 4: when I was growing up, I had like a rolodex
25:03
Speaker 4: of fifty phone numbers in my head. Easy, okay for
25:07
Speaker 4: all the girls who would never call me back. I
25:09
Speaker 4: had a lot of numbers that I could keep trying
25:13
Speaker 4: to try to find a date. But nonetheless, I don't
25:17
Speaker 4: need to do that anymore. I can pack my phone.
25:19
Speaker 4: My phone's my new black book. It has all the
25:21
Speaker 4: numbers that I need, and I don't need to memorize them. Now.
25:25
Speaker 4: If something happens to my phone, I'm screwed because they're
25:28
Speaker 4: not in my head. So it does make you wonder
25:32
Speaker 4: if you can imagine that phone number example, happening with
25:36
Speaker 4: all sorts of other things. Is our memory going to
25:39
Speaker 4: go to pot because we're not really utilizing it anymore. Yeah,
25:43
Speaker 4: that's an interesting question we may be seeing. We may
25:47
Speaker 4: be in the midst of the emergence of a new
25:49
Speaker 4: human skill set, and that skill set might be who
25:53
Speaker 4: can use artificial intelligent in the most innovative and creative way,
25:59
Speaker 4: you know, to be successful, to make money or you know,
26:02
Speaker 4: invent something, what have you, whatever your definition of success
26:06
Speaker 4: might be. That might be the new skill set that
26:10
Speaker 4: is at hand. You know, much like social media has
26:15
Speaker 4: developed this new skill set to become for people to
26:20
Speaker 4: become influencers. You know, very few people rise to the
26:25
Speaker 4: top where they can have hundreds of thousands of followers
26:29
Speaker 4: and you know millions of like with just about anything
26:32
Speaker 4: they post, no matter how ridiculous or silly it might seem.
26:36
Speaker 4: They've seized on this new technology in a very intelligent,
26:42
Speaker 4: very creative way and have become influencers, which is something
26:46
Speaker 4: that did not exist just fifteen twenty years ago. So
26:51
Speaker 4: we're I think we're going to see something like that
26:53
Speaker 4: evolve out of AI. Who can use it the best
26:58
Speaker 4: time will tell you it's not going to be me.
27:01
Speaker 4: But you know, I think that's where things might proceed.
27:07
Speaker 4: But I do share your concern that innate human capacities
27:12
Speaker 4: may fall by the wayside, just like a muscle will
27:15
Speaker 4: atrophy if you don't continue to use it.
27:18
Speaker 2: I was talking to a mum recently, yesterday or the
27:22
Speaker 2: day before, and she's talking about buying her She's got
27:26
Speaker 2: two kids to twin boys right about fourteen, and one
27:31
Speaker 2: wants an electric bike, so bike that you don't have
27:36
Speaker 2: to pedal, and one wants an electric scooter, a scooter
27:40
Speaker 2: where you don't need to push am I.
27:46
Speaker 1: And she's conflicted. I said you should be conflicted. I go,
27:50
Speaker 1: fourteen year old boys should be fucking pedaling and pushing
27:55
Speaker 1: and sweating and using their muscles and getting fits. And
28:00
Speaker 1: I know I sound like an old bastard, but I'm like.
28:02
Speaker 2: Do we need I mean, Australia has got amongst the
28:05
Speaker 2: highest rates of childhood obesity in the world. Do we
28:08
Speaker 2: need to introduce bikes where hey, now we don't even
28:12
Speaker 2: need to pedal, we just need to sit, And we
28:15
Speaker 2: don't need to push on the scooter, we just need
28:18
Speaker 2: to be on it.
28:19
Speaker 1: It will take us there.
28:21
Speaker 2: Like I just and I understand, I get it, But
28:24
Speaker 2: I'm like, I look at the decline in you know,
28:28
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter how much information, inspiration, education resources loaf
28:33
Speaker 2: at this bloody you know, instant that all the bloody regimes,
28:38
Speaker 2: it's not helping. Like we are not becoming healthier and
28:41
Speaker 2: fitter and stronger and leaner. And I'm not talking about
28:45
Speaker 2: vanity or ego everyone. I'm talking about function, longevity, health span, wellness.
28:50
Speaker 2: Like we're getting despite the research and our alleged intelligence,
28:55
Speaker 2: we're getting worse because we we just keep looking for
28:59
Speaker 2: the most comfortab fucking option, and that comes at great
29:02
Speaker 2: cost over the long term. Mild in mild convenience in
29:06
Speaker 2: the short term, but over the long term it's fucking destructive.
29:10
Speaker 2: Steps down off sapebox.
29:12
Speaker 4: No, no, I agree, I would jump on that soapbox
29:16
Speaker 4: with you.
29:17
Speaker 3: I mean.
29:17
Speaker 4: The counter argument is that children can ride these bikes
29:21
Speaker 4: a greater distance without getting tired, so if they have
29:25
Speaker 4: a friend who happens to be a little too far
29:27
Speaker 4: for a pedal bike, they can now get there. Scooters
29:31
Speaker 4: are great for you know, especially I can use the
29:34
Speaker 4: example of students on campus. If you've got to get
29:36
Speaker 4: from one end to campus to the other quite quickly,
29:38
Speaker 4: These motorized scooters are very handy. But I think that's
29:43
Speaker 4: all fine and good under those circumstances. Great, but let's
29:48
Speaker 4: not lose sight of the fact that we still have
29:50
Speaker 4: to get out there and use a pedal bike or
29:52
Speaker 4: use our legs and run and walk. Because if we
29:55
Speaker 4: do utilize those tools, which makes life a little more
29:58
Speaker 4: convenient in some aspect, there's going to be a trade
30:02
Speaker 4: off that we're just leaning more into that sedentary lifestyle,
30:07
Speaker 4: which we know is demonstrably unhealthy and tremendously bad for
30:12
Speaker 4: both our physical and mental well being. We need to
30:16
Speaker 4: incorporate as much movement and exercise into our daily life
30:21
Speaker 4: as possible. These new conveniences, despite making life easier, may
30:27
Speaker 4: actually make life a lot harder in the long run,
30:31
Speaker 4: because we are going to become very unhealthy if we
30:35
Speaker 4: don't get to exercise our body needs.
30:39
Speaker 2: I mean, this is a very I don't expect you
30:42
Speaker 2: to have a clear answer to this, but just an
30:44
Speaker 2: interesting thought, like in general, unless there's some turnaround. I think,
30:50
Speaker 2: over the last especially over the last one hundred years,
30:53
Speaker 2: humans broadly speaking move less. You know, we are more sedentary.
30:59
Speaker 2: Things of obviously are more convenient, more mechanized, you know,
31:06
Speaker 2: and so we don't have to move and expend as
31:09
Speaker 2: much energy as we once did because of everything we
31:12
Speaker 2: have access to. If we continued on this trend of
31:17
Speaker 2: moving less and being more sedentory, and you know, from
31:22
Speaker 2: a biological point of view, you know, we would lose
31:24
Speaker 2: muscle mass, we would.
31:25
Speaker 1: Lose bone density.
31:26
Speaker 2: Over the generations, we would you know, become from a
31:31
Speaker 2: physiological point less capable than our ancestors of one hundred two,
31:36
Speaker 2: three hundred years ago. How long does it take do
31:39
Speaker 2: you reckon when we live in this all of these
31:44
Speaker 2: cultures and lifestyles and behaviors that are basically making life
31:50
Speaker 2: more comfortable for us. Before there's some kind of real
31:54
Speaker 2: genetic consequence in a species.
31:58
Speaker 1: Well were weird.
32:00
Speaker 4: We are not going to be able to evolve the
32:03
Speaker 4: genetic mutations necessary to thrive. You know in that kind
32:09
Speaker 4: of environment. Evolution doesn't work that way, doesn't It moves
32:13
Speaker 4: glacially slow. We're still trying to adapt to the agricultural
32:20
Speaker 4: revolution of just ten thousand years ago. Our bodies are
32:24
Speaker 4: not built to eat a lot of the products that
32:28
Speaker 4: are grown, you know, in farms around the world. You know,
32:32
Speaker 4: we used to have a much more diverse and varied diet.
32:36
Speaker 4: And you know, we we were basically designing a world
32:40
Speaker 4: that is so far out of alignment with how our
32:44
Speaker 4: bodies and minds evolved that there's a concept called the
32:50
Speaker 4: evolutionary mismatch. You know, there are these mismatches and evolution
32:55
Speaker 4: in that we've created a modern world where biologically our
32:59
Speaker 4: mind and body is ill suited to thrive in. And
33:03
Speaker 4: this has been postulated to be the bedrock underlying reason
33:09
Speaker 4: why there's so much depression and misery even though we
33:15
Speaker 4: have all these extraordinary conveniences and technological advances right and
33:20
Speaker 4: right at our grasp, at the end of the day,
33:23
Speaker 4: we're just not living as evolution intended us to live.
33:28
Speaker 4: If we can get back to that, I'm not saying
33:30
Speaker 4: we have to get rid of all these wonderful conveniences.
33:33
Speaker 4: We can have the best of both worlds. We just
33:36
Speaker 4: need to remember to incorporate some paleolithic principles and lifestyles
33:41
Speaker 4: into our modern lifestyle so that our bodies are fooled
33:46
Speaker 4: into thinking that we're still kind of, you know, a
33:50
Speaker 4: hunter gatherer ish, and we can then thrive in the
33:54
Speaker 4: modern world. You get what I'm saying. Discussed example of
34:00
Speaker 4: this before with Granted, there's a lot of things in
34:05
Speaker 4: life that force you to be sedentary, but that doesn't
34:08
Speaker 4: mean you can't get out there and exercise a certain
34:11
Speaker 4: amount every day to kind of compensate for all that resting.
34:18
Speaker 4: Another thing that modern lifestyle does is it keeps us
34:21
Speaker 4: up a lot longer than evolution intended us to be awake. Okay,
34:27
Speaker 4: with all the artificial lights and night shift jobs, and
34:34
Speaker 4: you know, the blue screens that are at all the time,
34:38
Speaker 4: this is not how we were meant to live. We
34:41
Speaker 4: were meant to live with a in a circadian rhythm,
34:45
Speaker 4: sint to the rising and setting of the sun, and
34:48
Speaker 4: melatonin would naturally get you know, built up in our
34:53
Speaker 4: bodies as the sun goes down, make us sleepy, so
34:57
Speaker 4: that we would fall asleep a few hours after sundown
35:00
Speaker 4: and then wake up, you know, just before the sun.
35:04
Speaker 4: There's a there's a reason our eyelids are so thin.
35:07
Speaker 4: You know, it lets light in and we don't realize it,
35:11
Speaker 4: but when our eyes are closed and the sun is
35:13
Speaker 4: coming up, the light shines into our into our eyes
35:18
Speaker 4: and starts to stop the melatonin and get other chemicals
35:22
Speaker 4: going to wake us up. It's a it's a really
35:24
Speaker 4: fascinating thing. And we've evolved that way for millions of
35:27
Speaker 4: years and over the past you know, probably just two
35:31
Speaker 4: hundred years, you know, maybe even one hundred whenever electricity
35:35
Speaker 4: became a thing, we really started to play around with,
35:39
Speaker 4: you know, day and night time. We've we've extended our
35:42
Speaker 4: waking hours. Corporations abuse this and put people to work
35:47
Speaker 4: for longer periods of time, and they put them to
35:50
Speaker 4: work at night or at dawn, and this is totally
35:54
Speaker 4: screwed up. Our circadian rhythm, and without a healthy night's sleep,
35:58
Speaker 4: of course we're all going to be miserable. We're all
36:01
Speaker 4: going to be needing caffeine in the morning or maybe
36:04
Speaker 4: alcohol to put us to sleep. It's just not a
36:08
Speaker 4: good way to live. We don't need to live like that.
36:11
Speaker 1: Yes, that is so, Yeah, you're right.
36:14
Speaker 2: I mean, you think about how long we've had electricity
36:17
Speaker 2: whatever one hundred years or one hundred twenty years or
36:19
Speaker 2: whatever it is, and.
36:22
Speaker 1: You know, agriculture ten thousand years, and.
36:26
Speaker 2: We've been around for whatever two hundred thousand and three
36:28
Speaker 2: hundred thousand as a species, as modern humans or whatever,
36:33
Speaker 2: but evolving for however long before that, And then you
36:37
Speaker 2: think that everything that we currently or most things that
36:41
Speaker 2: we currently have access to and use for nearly the
36:45
Speaker 2: entirety of our existence has a species wasn't here, you know,
36:50
Speaker 2: and think about like the gap between say two and
36:55
Speaker 2: a half thousand years ago and two thousand years ago,
36:58
Speaker 2: So that five hundred year gap, there wasn't a whole
37:01
Speaker 2: lot that happened in terms of technological advancement. I'm sure
37:05
Speaker 2: stuff did, but you know, when you think about the
37:08
Speaker 2: way that technology is changing the way that we live
37:13
Speaker 2: now it's almost like by the year, there are more
37:17
Speaker 2: changes in a year than maybe happen in a century
37:20
Speaker 2: if we go back far enough, you know what I'm saying.
37:23
Speaker 1: And then to your point.
37:25
Speaker 2: Of sleep, it's so true with the light thing, and
37:31
Speaker 2: you think about, well, if you don't have quality sleep,
37:35
Speaker 2: then no wonder you're anxious. No wonder, you're producing copious
37:39
Speaker 2: amounts of quarters on. No wonder your nervous systems jacked,
37:42
Speaker 2: you know, because your body's not resetting and recovering because
37:47
Speaker 2: you're not getting what it needs to get you back
37:50
Speaker 2: to status quo for the next day.
37:53
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just read this, so it's kind of at
37:56
Speaker 4: the top of my mind.
37:58
Speaker 3: The whole phenomenon blue light.
38:00
Speaker 4: You hear a lot about this in the popular press
38:03
Speaker 4: because our phones and tablets and television screens emit this
38:07
Speaker 4: blue light. And they say, the worst thing you can
38:10
Speaker 4: do is use your screen right before you're trying to
38:14
Speaker 4: go to bed, because that blue light keeps you awake.
38:18
Speaker 4: And what's really fascinating is that you know, the blue
38:21
Speaker 4: light is in the UV spectrum, so that blue light
38:24
Speaker 4: that we would see outside, well that would be feeding
38:27
Speaker 4: into our eyes. We don't see the blue light per se. Okay,
38:31
Speaker 4: we see the white light and you know, and the
38:35
Speaker 4: blue light is the UV rays that enter into our
38:41
Speaker 4: body and tell our brain that it's daytime. So the
38:45
Speaker 4: blue light that we get off of our tablets and
38:48
Speaker 4: phones is basically saying it's still daytime, and it fools
38:51
Speaker 4: our brain into thinking that it still has to stay
38:53
Speaker 4: awake because even though the sun might be down, this
38:57
Speaker 4: blue light is still sending a signal to our brain
39:01
Speaker 4: that it's daytime. And this goes all the way back
39:05
Speaker 4: to single cell evolution. The reason why our cells respond
39:10
Speaker 4: to this blue light, or at least the theory goes,
39:14
Speaker 4: is that blue light can penetrate the ocean where life began,
39:19
Speaker 4: and the primordial organisms that arose out of the ocean
39:23
Speaker 4: could then sense when it was when the sun was
39:26
Speaker 4: out because the blue light was coming through the water.
39:30
Speaker 4: It's pretty fascinating and I might not be getting all
39:32
Speaker 4: the nuts and bolts of that right, but the evolution
39:36
Speaker 4: of circadian rhythm happened billions of years ago in single
39:40
Speaker 4: cells that were in the ocean because the blue wavelength
39:46
Speaker 4: of light was what they could detect underwater, and our
39:50
Speaker 4: cells have kept that characteristic through billions of years of evolution,
39:56
Speaker 4: and we have a circadian rhythm to this day that
39:59
Speaker 4: is governm and by blue light. I found that fascinating,
40:02
Speaker 4: and I probably screwed up some of the details, but
40:06
Speaker 4: people could use AI to go learn more about it.
40:11
Speaker 1: I see what you did, that's okay.
40:15
Speaker 2: Yeah. If I don't sleep great, Oh tif you get
40:18
Speaker 2: a bit cranky or tificates hungry.
40:22
Speaker 1: Tell doctor Bill what hungry is. He might have figured
40:25
Speaker 1: it out.
40:25
Speaker 5: Hungry is the most intense emotion that you could ever feel, Bill,
40:30
Speaker 5: And it's when you're hungry. It's when you're hungry real quick,
40:34
Speaker 5: like me, and you can't do anything else. You can't people,
40:38
Speaker 5: you can't. All of your interpersonal skills gone.
40:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can't operate unless you get food.
40:44
Speaker 5: Right.
40:45
Speaker 1: Yeah.
40:45
Speaker 5: Like, I'm okay to get up and fast and be hungry,
40:50
Speaker 5: but once I've eaten for the day and then I
40:52
Speaker 5: get hungry again. It's not an option to push that
40:56
Speaker 5: bad boy out very upset.
41:00
Speaker 4: If you're not alone, you shouldn't feel bad about it.
41:02
Speaker 4: Hangry is a real thing, and I know some science
41:05
Speaker 4: experiments that back it up. Craig, you might have read
41:10
Speaker 4: this in my book, because I know you're an avid
41:12
Speaker 4: reader of my book.
41:14
Speaker 1: And well probably no book which is called sentence.
41:18
Speaker 2: Please to make mes James, germs and the curious forces
41:22
Speaker 2: that make us who we are. I'll say that again.
41:24
Speaker 2: Please to make me doctor Bill's book. I actually do
41:28
Speaker 2: have doctor Bill's book. I could even show you. It's
41:30
Speaker 2: on my phone.
41:32
Speaker 1: Yes, go on, tell us about the research.
41:35
Speaker 4: Oh yes, this is for Tiff, so she doesn't feel
41:38
Speaker 4: bad about this.
41:40
Speaker 3: This relates to.
41:43
Speaker 4: Some you know, I guess a field of like of psychology,
41:49
Speaker 4: and this is a very famous experiment that, from my understanding,
41:52
Speaker 4: has been reproduced on a number of occasions. But psychologists
41:57
Speaker 4: studied the rate by which people in jail were granted parole. Okay,
42:05
Speaker 4: and it turns out did you hear about this? Tiss
42:09
Speaker 4: nodding her head, So I'm suspecting she might have heard
42:11
Speaker 4: about this study. You're more likely to be granted parole
42:16
Speaker 4: by the judge if your case is heard early in
42:21
Speaker 4: the morning, as opposed to just before lunch, so your
42:27
Speaker 4: chances of getting parole go down the hungrier the more
42:32
Speaker 4: angry the judge is. If your case goes up after
42:37
Speaker 4: lunch toward to the judge, the judge is more likely
42:41
Speaker 4: to grant you parole.
42:42
Speaker 3: So TIFFs, you're right.
42:43
Speaker 4: As soon as you get fed, you're back to friendly Tiff.
42:48
Speaker 3: Right, you're not the haulk anymore.
42:51
Speaker 4: You go back to friendly, mild manner Tiff who helps
42:55
Speaker 4: people across the street. So, yeah, the hangry is a
42:59
Speaker 4: real thing. It's backed up by science. And if you're
43:01
Speaker 4: ever in jail, Craig, remember don't go up from for
43:05
Speaker 4: all right before lunch.
43:09
Speaker 1: Good to know what we're going to say too.
43:10
Speaker 4: Similar similar studies, I think have been done in doctors' offices.
43:14
Speaker 4: You know, you're usually shortchanged, you're rushed out of the
43:18
Speaker 4: office if you see the doctor rate before lunch. But
43:22
Speaker 4: if you see the doctor after lunch, they're more likely
43:26
Speaker 4: to spend more time with you, ask you more questions.
43:29
Speaker 4: And it's very interesting phenomenon.
43:32
Speaker 5: It makes sense for evolution because I think about how
43:36
Speaker 5: we react to circumstances and there needs to be a
43:39
Speaker 5: subset of people who see anger is very urgent and
43:43
Speaker 5: go and get the damn food, while the other grown
43:47
Speaker 5: ups look after the kids and the home and everything
43:51
Speaker 5: without like eating the children and being angry mothers. So
43:56
Speaker 5: you know, it makes sense.
43:58
Speaker 1: Well, that's a good doctor and very quickly.
44:01
Speaker 4: Eating the Children's not a good evolutionary strategy, right, so.
44:05
Speaker 5: I'd be out hunting for the next meal.
44:09
Speaker 1: I don't want to say. That's not what I don't
44:12
Speaker 1: want to say. That's not why you're a mother. But well,
44:17
Speaker 1: I've got dogs and cats. That's funny I heard going duck.
44:24
Speaker 4: Sorry, I was just going to say that, Tiff kind
44:26
Speaker 4: of just hit the nail on the head. That's why
44:28
Speaker 4: we have these emotions. You know, we get irritable and
44:31
Speaker 4: angry because we can't get food off our mind. Our
44:34
Speaker 4: body needs nourishment and it needs it now. So these
44:37
Speaker 4: emotions compel us to go, you know, create an action.
44:41
Speaker 4: They motivate us to, you know, go out and gather
44:46
Speaker 4: some roots, or you know, kill someone, kill a non
44:49
Speaker 4: cute animal.
44:51
Speaker 1: Exactly wants to have.
44:53
Speaker 5: A pet snake harps, that was no good.
44:55
Speaker 2: But don't don't kill a whippet, that's for sure. For one.
45:01
Speaker 2: I feel like I've heard similar information about if you
45:08
Speaker 2: if you're in court and you're you're going to get
45:10
Speaker 2: a sentence, you're better off to get a sentence after
45:13
Speaker 2: the judge has eaten or like you said, early in
45:16
Speaker 2: the morning or after lunch. I feel like the end
45:18
Speaker 2: of the day is a bad time to have brain surgery.
45:21
Speaker 2: I think I want my brain surgeon first thing in
45:24
Speaker 2: the morning. You know, there's probably a few things like
45:28
Speaker 2: that that could be life shaping for Then.
45:35
Speaker 4: You can tame your appointments very strategically. Now, it's always
45:40
Speaker 4: better to have a meeting after lunch. People are in
45:42
Speaker 4: a better mood.
45:44
Speaker 2: It's good to know it's good tonight. It's twelve eighteen
45:47
Speaker 2: in Melbourne. Tip is probably pretty hungry about now.
45:50
Speaker 5: Now, I had I don't come into these things hungry alps.
45:57
Speaker 2: Doctor Bill's books called Please to Make Me, Jean's Germ,
46:00
Speaker 2: and the curious Forces that make us who we are.
46:03
Speaker 2: He's a superstar, mate, thank you so much for this year.
46:06
Speaker 2: I know you don't need to be here. Just not
46:09
Speaker 2: that he wants anyone to know this, But he gets
46:11
Speaker 2: paid zero. I don't know why he puts up with
46:13
Speaker 2: me everyone, but he does. He seems to. Maybe he's
46:15
Speaker 2: a glutton for punishment. Maybe I'm his community outreach project.
46:19
Speaker 2: I'm not sure, but he keeps coming back. And Mate,
46:23
Speaker 2: thank you so much. You're a superstar. We love and
46:26
Speaker 2: appreciate you, and thanks for being part of typ in
46:29
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four.
46:31
Speaker 3: Hey, it's my pleasure.
46:32
Speaker 5: You know.
46:32
Speaker 4: I love to do this, even though the pay is
46:35
Speaker 4: not that good. You know, it comes back to me
46:39
Speaker 4: in other ways. It's always a joy chatting with you
46:43
Speaker 4: and Tiff and seeing the comments that your listeners post
46:47
Speaker 4: on the social media channels. It's always fun to read
46:50
Speaker 4: those two. It's thrilling that so many people get so
46:53
Speaker 4: much out of your podcast, especially on the days that
46:56
Speaker 4: I'm here.
46:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true.
47:00
Speaker 2: Well, I tell you what, And this year's award for
47:03
Speaker 2: humility on the show goes to.
47:06
Speaker 1: Professor Bill Sullivan.
47:09
Speaker 2: I tell you what, because you've been so good, I'm
47:11
Speaker 2: going to double your annual salary, your EYP salary that
47:16
Speaker 2: is not your actual salary, your t YP salary.
47:20
Speaker 1: I'm going to double it next year. You're welcome.
47:23
Speaker 4: Oh man, We're going to go out for a nice
47:25
Speaker 4: Christmas dinner.
47:27
Speaker 2: All right, mate, Well, say goodbye Affair, but thanks again.
47:30
Speaker 2: We appreciate you.
47:31
Speaker 3: Hey, Happy holidays everyone,