Latest / Substack Writers Salon / Meet Jonathan Jordan: The Six-Figure Ghostwriter

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Meet Jonathan Jordan: The Six-Figure Ghostwriter · Substack Writers Salon

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: And we are live.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: This is just driving me crazy.
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  SPEAKER_01: Can you hear me or no?
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  SPEAKER_00: No, I can hear you great.
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  SPEAKER_01: I can hear you great.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: You can hear me?
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: I know this is just driving me crazy.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: But anyways, hi, hi, everyone.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: I see that there are already people...
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, now I've lost you, Natasha.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now you can hear me.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: I already see that people are joining me now.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: My buddy, my friend Joe Cook, Cassie, my friend Kathy, Michael, Zian, grab them by the ballot.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Hi.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we are so excited to talk today about...
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: How to build a six figure writing career.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: And we have someone who I've been following his work for a pretty long time,
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: maybe for like three, four years.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: His name is Jonathan Jordan.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: I first got introduced And then when I saw him in Substack,
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: I got really excited because I like his work.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: And Jonathan is a ghostwriter and a book coach.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: And he helps,
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
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  SPEAKER_01: solopreneurs and writers They take their 10 years of frustration to build
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: a six-figure writing business the same way he did.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: And he is the founder of the forwardwriting.com and forward.io.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: And he is the author of Start With Story, and it's currently available on audiobook.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Jonathan, thank you so much for joining me today.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for the invite.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to talk shop, I guess, since you're both in the same field.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I think your whole theme of your newsletter
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: or your business is making six figures as a writer.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: So why the six figure?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Why is it this is kind of the most coveted number for authors?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: And briefly,
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  SPEAKER_01: Did it actually take you 10 years to get to that number and how we can get there
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: with less than 10 years?
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think,
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think the reason it's a coveted number is because when you dig into the research
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: a little bit,
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  SPEAKER_00: you will find out that only about 9% of all freelance writers and editors,
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'll include editors as well because of the amount of writing they tend to do
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  SPEAKER_00: as well, but only 9% are making $100,000 and above.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that was kind of a bit of a shocking statistic when I first read it,
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: but also not the most surprising when I considered how long it took me to get to
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: that point and how much of a struggle it is for most people to find premium clients.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's very difficult to gain real momentum if you're stuck in that cycle.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I just changed microphone.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Can you hear me now?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I can.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's great.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, great.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm using the fancy one now.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe this fancy one will get me the six-figure number.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: But...
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, this month, actually, I made six figures.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I reached that number.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: Part of me, maybe I don't want to announce it.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe I get the evil eye, whatever.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like the past few months I've been, I reached that coveted number.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: And as you said, it took me like three, four years.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: This is not about me now.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's basically about you.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to hear about what are the tactics that worked for you with trial and error?
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  SPEAKER_01: Because I know for me, I kept trying this offer and that offer and this until I figured out.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: What was the thing for you that moved the needle the most when it came to your writing business?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think what made the biggest difference for me was
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: when I actually started networking and started like seeking out partnerships
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: and relationships with people who were already in the field and already doing
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: the work that I wanted to do.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: And for the longest time, I just tried to take the DIY approach.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just writing,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: blogs and articles and depending on freelance platforms,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know, just trying to scrape together a few jobs here and there.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I was trying to do it all on my own.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I wasn't connecting with other people.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, one of the big breakthroughs, I didn't make a ton of money from it.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the big breakthroughs for me was when I got an editing gig.
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  SPEAKER_00: With an Ivy League school.
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  SPEAKER_00: They had a program for grad students at the time to help them publish
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: because it was all about like helping position them as an authority
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: before they got their master's degree so that they could like use that to build
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: a platform on all that good stuff.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: But they needed book coaches and developmental editors.
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  SPEAKER_00: Again, I got paid very, very little for that.
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  SPEAKER_00: But it really opened my eyes to, oh,
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: there's all these little presses and different publishers out there
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  SPEAKER_00: who they're doing this and they need people like me.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because I always just thought everything was done in-house.
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  SPEAKER_00: And how do I get that in-house position?
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  SPEAKER_00: How do I get that entry-level editing or writing position?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't realize that.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, that gig is...
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  SPEAKER_00: Again, the real price wasn't the money because they paid me very,
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: very little,
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: but it helped me build my portfolio in a way that I could better position myself
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  SPEAKER_00: to future prospects and to future publishers.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like just trying to figure out who's ahead of me and what can I learn from them.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I stopped looking at other writers as competition and looked at them
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: as colleagues more than anything else.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny you mentioned that yesterday I was at an in-person networking event
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  SPEAKER_01: for like female business owners in my area.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we were like both introducing what we do and I gave them my card.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the women there, she was like, so what do you do?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And she was like, I do exactly like what you do.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just like, really?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And she was like, I'm a book coach and I'm a book strategist.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, amazing.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I tell her I love meeting people who are doing the same work because It's collaboration.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think competition is for losers and collaborators is for winners.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so, I'm glad.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: And this is kind of a mindset, I think, shift for many of us.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Specifically, like, oh, like, you know, for you, like, you and me do, like, very similar work.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, like, I would love to collaborate with you.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: I can send you clients.
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  SPEAKER_01: We can share our experience.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, I love that.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: You said that you started reaching out to them.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: So how did you reach out?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: You went to LinkedIn and send them DMs?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm sorry,
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm getting in the minutiae because I want some tactical steps for someone who wants
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  SPEAKER_01: to reach that, again, coveted figure of 10K a month.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, when I started connecting with publishers,
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: it was literally just like over Google,
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: just figuring out who do I need a contact there and say, hey, I'm a ghostwriter.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm an editor.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you have a test I can take?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have an application process?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like, it literally was that simple.
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  SPEAKER_00: In the beginning,
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  SPEAKER_00: but then when I started getting,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: onto LinkedIn and taking it seriously,
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  SPEAKER_00: that was, yes,
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  SPEAKER_00: when I started just looking for like, who are the other writers and editors on here?
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  SPEAKER_00: And do they seem cool to me?
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  SPEAKER_00: Because when I first got on LinkedIn, well,
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: when I first got serious about LinkedIn,
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  SPEAKER_00: every post I was seeing from an editor or a ghostwriter was all about like,
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: hey, how Hire me to write your book.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Hire me to write your book.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I don't think that's working very well for those people.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so then I started looking for the people who were doing a different approach,
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  SPEAKER_00: who were focusing on how to educate people about writing,
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  SPEAKER_00: how to educate people about the publishing process.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's really kind of how I found people that I gelled with and
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  SPEAKER_00: who I could learn from and we could learn from each other.
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  SPEAKER_00: But it took time to look for and find those people.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: But But,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: once you click on a few profiles and you start engaging with that content,
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  SPEAKER_00: that's kind of the benefit of an algorithm.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's going to start showing you more people like that.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what happened.
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  SPEAKER_00: There was kind of a snowball effect of once I started engaging with a couple
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  SPEAKER_00: of people who I liked and who were doing the kind of work that I wanted to do,
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  SPEAKER_00: then they're kind of naturally,
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: I started getting connected with other people until we kind of had our own little,
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know, LinkedIn club almost.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I actually wanted to ask you about LinkedIn.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: So you're very active.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: What's your cadence?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: Do you post one a day or twice a day?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: You're always there or the algorithm keeps
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: showing you.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: I can't escape you.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: You're everywhere.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I do post at least once a day every weekday.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: I do post every now and then on the weekends,
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: but I don't stress out if I don't post on the weekends because especially
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: on Saturdays, like I'm spending time with my kids.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: On Saturdays,
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  SPEAKER_00: I keep them all day on Saturdays and that's what's most important versus trying
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: to engage online.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: But at least Monday through Friday, I'm always posting something.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Every now and then I will post twice, but generally I try to just post once.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Once a day,
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: usually if I do post twice,
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: the second one is something that's like not very serious,
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: you know, or it's like a headline I found.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, okay, I need to share this now because otherwise I'll forget.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is something people should see.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I mean, it's the only like social media platform that I really, really like.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm on some others, but LinkedIn is my favorite of the platforms.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Do you use any tools for LinkedIn or do you just use the native platform?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because some people use Tapleo, some people.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: Do you use any tools?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've tried some of those before.
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  SPEAKER_00: And frankly, they weren't great for a lot of other people.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: So this is just me talking.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: For me, they added a layer of complexity that I didn't care about.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Don't get me wrong.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: If I became a data nerd and I dug into all that stuff,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure like a lot of other people have done,
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure I could figure out how to go viral all the time and all that sort of thing.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's great for those people who want to do that.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have the time or energy that I want to spend on that piece of it personally.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's great for other I do use some tools for where I post in other places
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: because I recently started engaging more on Instagram.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: I recently started a TikTok and then I recently resurrected My YouTube channel.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so I use Buffer so that I can cross post because it's all video.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: And again, that saves me the headache of having to go on each platform and And post.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that is one tool that I do recommend to people if you're going to be recycling
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: and like cross posting,
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: just know that it has its limits when you use a tool like that,
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: because every platform once you Correct.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: So in terms of inbound leads, do you think they mostly come from LinkedIn for you?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: And where does Substack fit in the equation?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, Substack, I'll tackle that part first, actually.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Substack for me is really more of just a place I can give.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: I had a paid option for a while and I actually decided to get rid of it about a year ago.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: I just decided, nope, it's going to be completely for free.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think everybody should know this information.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: People pay me for stuff in other ways.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: I just decided like this is just going to be free for people
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: where I can just give advice and insights and if it helps someone, great.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: So like that's really how I see Substack is like this is just a way for me
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: to share whatever is on my mind.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: And similarly with LinkedIn,
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think my LinkedIn goals are a little bit different than most people because a lot
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: of people look at LinkedIn as like, I do a post, I get a lead.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: They look at it like it's a vending machine.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't work the best that way if you view it like that because you're going
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: to get burned out.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to post for several weeks.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to be disheartened that you haven't had any leads come through and
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: that all your messages are people just wanting to pitch you their service.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: And you're going to give up.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: If you go in, though,
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: with a mindset to learn and to connect with cool people,
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: then the rest kind of naturally follows.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I'm not going to sit here and say, yeah, if you start posting on LinkedIn...
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to be getting a lead every other day.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's not the reality for a lot of people.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: But you will get some leads.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've had several people reach out to me this year.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, really, more than that.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: But recently, I've Mm-hmm.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: I did start an outbound strategy on LinkedIn this year.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I started working with an agency to help me with that because I don't have
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: the time to do it all myself.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so like they kind of help like identify people who might be prospects and
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: then I can like take a look at their profiles and be like,
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: okay, yeah, this looks like a cool person.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to reach out to this person.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I just I don't have the time to like gather the list of perspectives.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: Perspective leads.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: So they helped me with that piece of it.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: But that's still a new thing.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: I just started doing that this year.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: So my advice is like,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: if you're new to LinkedIn, don't immediately jump into an outbound strategy.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: You really need to build first.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: You really need to connect first.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: You really need to get into the habit of posting and figuring out what you like.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of people get burned out because they immediately go
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: in thinking this is my sales strategy and they get burned out.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Go in connecting and building first.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: And the rest, it's like planting a garden.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: You got to put in the seeds.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: You got to water.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: The plants will grow later on, but it does take time.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious about the agency that you mentioned.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: I get a lot of emails.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, we can help you.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I usually ignore them because I think...
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious for someone as savvy as you are, how did you jump into that?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: And did you see any positive ROI from this?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because I like this because,
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: I also don't have time to go through like LinkedIn sales navigator,
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: and I just really don't have time.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: But do you think outsourcing to our agency actually works?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And do they understand their audience?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it can work.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm still a newbie to it, obviously.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll give what advice I can.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I just started working with them in May.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason I did was because that was one of my business goals for this year.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: I said, okay, I need to invest in an outbound strategy.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm used to doing this LinkedIn thing.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really have to think about content anymore.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: If anything, I have too many ideas.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that's not a problem anymore.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that was just kind of the next piece of like,
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: I need to invest in this because it's the next part of my growth.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, I mean, what I'll say is you have to be patient with it.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because again,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: it's not the sort of thing like you flip,
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know, like turn on a faucet and immediately starts gushing.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: There's a learning process.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's a learning curve.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like the assistant that I have,
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: like I've had to do some training with her on like,
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: hey, these are the type of people I want to work with.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Here are some cues that you can look for.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: That way she's not, you know...
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: For the most part and like people who I would want to work with.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yes, some of those like have turned into real conversations.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like just recently,
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: just a couple of weeks ago,
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: one of my prospects that they sent me is actually going to be meeting with
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: a literary agent that I know about their book idea.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And kind of,
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: they're going to get to like,
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know, pitch that, which is really cool because they can help them.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I can help them.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's another way for me to like show my value of like,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: hey, I have an in into this industry and I think you have a message.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: those are the benefits is like I would never have run across that person
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: in particular unless I had had help.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: So there are a lot of agencies and some of them I think might be scammers.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: How did you decide on the agency that you decided on?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I mean, I did a couple different interviews with them.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: I dug into who they've worked with.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: I even messaged people they worked with.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like I didn't just like believe the, you know, everything they sent me.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: I actually like reached out to those people and,
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: had some dialogue with them and everything,
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: and just kind of For,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: for myself,
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: like weighed the risk of like, okay, yeah, how much am I willing to spend on this?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because every business decision is a risk at some point.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just had already decided this is going to be the year I take that risk.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I mean, I did due diligence and was like, okay, yeah.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I talked to Mm-hmm.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: I feel the most comfortable with.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Who do I think understands my situation the most?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that was really what directed my decision.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I very rarely will tell people like, oh,
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: go work with this person and go with this agency because it really does have to be
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: about your personality and who you mesh with.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And just because I vibe with someone doesn't mean you will vibe with them.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Correct, correct.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, okay, so...
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so you're a full-time writer and an author and you're also a family man, you have kids.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to talk about the practicality of being that, especially when you have a family.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know,
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: like the idea of people always want to cling to the nine to five because of
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: the insurance and all of that.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I...
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: For you,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: how did you sort out that issue,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: especially in the U.S. where we don't have the universal health insurance?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if someone wants to take that plunge of becoming a full-time creative,
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: that was the first thing,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: at least in the U.S.,
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: different parts of the world is different, is what I'm going to do about insurance.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's the first thing.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: So my response, I use my husband's insurance, but not everyone is in that position.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I know people,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: at least where we live in the state of Maryland,
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: there's like small business insurance options.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: What do you do for insurance?
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: So my answer to that's a little unusual.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's not something everyone is going to be able to do.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: But what I do is, because my wife is also self-employed.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, okay.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: so we don't have that option of like being able to piggyback
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: on one person's insurance plan.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: If you can do that, that's an ideal solution.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, my wife is also self-employed.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: So what we did was we joined a faith-based health co-op, which is different than insurance.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: that's why not everyone can do it because it's usually like around like,
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know, what you believe and your faith and, you know, things like that.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: So not an option for everybody.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I have seen some secular versions of that come out recently, too.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's always worth looking into like a health co-op option because a lot of times they are.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Less expensive.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: But there are drawbacks to it too.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Proceed with caution.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: You need to decide what's right for you and your family.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: But That was what we were most comfortable with because the price point was better
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: for us and we liked how they set up things.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: And because our pediatrician also, again,
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: they're not insurance,
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: but our pediatrician kind of treats them as one of their payment options.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was just kind of a good fit for us of like,
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: okay, this doesn't change our circumstances that much.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: And also...
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, dental was big for me.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that a lot of, like,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: even small business insurance plans, like, man,
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: adding on something like dental and eye and whatnot,
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: if you need that, it can really make the price skyrocket.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so our health co-op that we use had a partnership with
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: a dental plan that's super affordable.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so we were like, okay, we got to have that, if nothing else.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: so it's,
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know, again,
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: that's not going to be an option for everybody,
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: but there are health co-ops out there that you can join instead of doing like
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: the traditional thing.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Just make sure you do your homework because there are drawbacks for it and you have
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: to be willing to live with those drawbacks in the same way that there's drawbacks to
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: a health care plan, you know, a more traditional one.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's my answer.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: Again, take it with a huge grain of salt.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's helpful.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: So what is the business income stream that is the biggest for you?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Is it ghostwriting?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Is it book coaching?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: So ghostwriting is the biggest chunk.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like if I when I kind of break down my income at the end of the year and I look at
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: where the money came from,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: ghostwriting is always the biggest chunk because they're the biggest deals
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: that I get.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I can.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: So what do you ghostwrite?
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: What do you ghostwrite exactly?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, nonfiction, typically business nonfiction.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: So like a lot of business memoir, a lot of prescriptive nonfiction, that sort of content.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, think of books like Good to Great by Jim Collins, for example.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's kind of the vein that I'm in.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I work with a lot of CEOs and founders who are writing books for a number
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: of different reasons.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: But that is the biggest chunk.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Second biggest is book coaching.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: So those are typically clients who are in that same vein,
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: CEOs and Founders, presidents, whatever.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: But they want to write the book themselves, which is great.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or they already have written it, but they need the coaching.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: They need the editorial expertise.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: They need to figure out how to take that next step into getting their book to market.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that tends to be the next check or chunk.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then the third piece is developmental editing.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't do a ton of developmental editing anymore, but it's still a skill that I love.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: You selectively take on some developmental editing throughout the year,
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: and that kind of helps fill in the pipeline,
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: especially if ghostwriting gets a little slow, like it does during the summer.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's usually not many people closing ghostwriting.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: Ghostwriting deals in the summer.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll usually do more editing work in the summer to kind of help balance things out of it.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: Those are like my three tiers that I do is ghostwriting, book coaching, developmental editing.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: So do you like downsell them to book coaching?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: So let's say someone comes to you and they say, hey, can you write my book?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: And you give them whatever, like 20K or 30K, which is kind of the standard.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: And they say, I can't afford that.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: Do you downsell them and say, hey, by the way, you can write it and I can coach you.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: Is that something that you do or do you have the offers too separate?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I prefer more of the upsell strategy,
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: which is, hey, let me start you out as low of an option as possible.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then we're going to explore what this could look like.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: So one of my leads that I'm working with right now from that agency,
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: instead of immediately going like, hey, let's do this huge ghostwriting contract.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Instead, I said, hey, let's start out with three coaching sessions.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm getting some value out of it.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm being reimbursed for that time that I'm putting into the project.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, we're exploring like, okay, what is the next step?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: So is the next step doing a book proposal?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: For us to pitch to agents and the publishers or if he decides,
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: no, you know what, I really want to do like hybrid publishing.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well then that changes to, okay,
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: well then let's explore either book coaching or ghostwriting
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: so I can help get you connected with the right publisher for your book and
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: for your idea.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I prefer going that route versus pitching someone a five-figure sum And them,
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know, potentially, like, feeling like they just got...
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, hit with a sledgehammer, right?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I want to de-risk it for them as much as possible.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so I would much rather upsell someone.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I see.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: So what's your book coaching approach?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you do during the sessions?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because some coaches focus on mindset.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Others focus on like live editing.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you run a coaching session, especially for this client who...
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Once a memoir, but you said, okay, let me coach you first.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: So what would you coach him or her on?
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it all depends on that first call that I have with them.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Coaching has to be tailored.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: It has to be tailored.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot do a one-size-fits-all approach.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I've never seen an effective sports coach who trains all of their athletes exactly the same.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Stems from their answers to those two questions.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because naturally, the third question that comes up after that is, okay, so what's the obstacle?
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what's holding you back from getting those two pieces done?
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what's holding you back from reading?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like I had a book coaching client this year who turned into a ghostwriting client
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: because after our first couple of calls,
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: they realized, wow, I started in completely the wrong place.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like now that I realize what my goals need to be and who I'm writing to,
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: my original outline, it doesn't work.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not what I want to do at all.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so like they came to me then at that point and said,
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: what would it look like for you to be my ghostwriter?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so we totally revisited the arrangement that we had and said,
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: okay, well, here's what that would look like.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: So how does your day look like as a full-time writer, a family man?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because your kids are pretty young, right?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well...
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: I've got an almost 13 year old and then I've got a four year old.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got a I've got a bit of a age range.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: Again, our situation is a little bit unusual compared to most people because we also homeschool.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: But we love doing that because of the flexibility that it gives us.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: So like literally when we first jumped on the call, Natasha, like my son was actually sick.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: He's sitting at his desk over here with his headset on doing school, you know.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: So you just couldn't see him.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, we like that freedom and that flexibility a ton.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're very,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: like my wife and I,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: because she also runs a business,
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: we have an agreed schedule for every single day of here's when you work,
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: here's when I work.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then here's when we put the phones up on the wall so that we are not distracted.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're spending family time together.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: So we have a rhythm.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes that rhythm needs to change.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes she has something that needs to happen.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, we communicate like you should always do in a relationship anyway.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah,
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: it's just been a process for us to figure out what works for us
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: since we both run businesses.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: And part of that includes I work on Sunday afternoons.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: I start my week on Sunday afternoons because I'm uninterrupted.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: No one else is working on Sunday afternoons.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so I can do a lot of deep work and a lot of prep work that I wouldn't be able
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: to do during the middle of the week at all.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so I start my week on Sunday afternoons.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times on Fridays, I call it an early day.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: I call it an early day whenever possible.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I take my son to go do something fun.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: I take him to rock climbing.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: I do a little bit more work while I'm at rock climbing with him.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not climbing.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I do a little bit more during that time.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah,
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: you just you find the pockets and you find the flow that works for you
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: and your family.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: But for us,
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: it's all about the flexibility and the freedom that Yeah,
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: if we want to call it a day at 2 p.m.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: on a Thursday and go watch a movie together as a family, we can do that.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's nice, yeah.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that's our philosophy.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: So before we conclude,
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: what are your top tips or advice for someone who wants to live a similar lifestyle
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: where you actually make six figures doing something you love and you enjoy
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: and you're good at while having the autonomy to be your own boss,
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: to make the executive decisions and work
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: anytime from
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: anywhere?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: So what are you, and you said you spent 10 years figuring it out.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell it to me in 30 seconds?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I can.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I started doing freelancing around 2013,
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: just on the side as a side gig,
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: again, doing, but relying on gig platforms, which was horrible.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like Fiverr and Upwork?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: Fiverr, Upwork, another one that I don't even think exists anymore, it might.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, stuff like that.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't till 2019 that I figured out like,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: oh, I can't there's like publishers I can partner with.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was the first like,
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: that was the first real breakthrough was figuring out like,
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: there's people that I can build pipelines with.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't have to build them all completely on my own.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say like that's one of the first things if like you feel stuck in
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: the hamster wheel where you're having to hunt for every client or you're depending
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: on a platform,
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: you got to go find those other pipelines and you got to build partnerships.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's the first thing you got to do.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like you got to get out there because they're out there.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you need to scale them over time.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: Don't depend on just one because eventually you're going to figure out
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: that first one you started out with,
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: they're not paying you what you're worth anymore.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so once you have enough experience,
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: then you need to scale up to the next publisher who's willing to pay you more
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: and seek out relationships with literary agents.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like I have no less than three literary agents that I'm connected with right now.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: That know me and trust me and they know my work and those are also pipelines for me now.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like no one's going to just find you.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: You have to go out and find them and start engaging with them.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that's my first bit is go find those people because you're probably not networking enough.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what it comes down to is networking isn't just showing up for an event
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: and standing around awkwardly exchanging business cards.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's also sitting at your computer and figuring out who is doing what I want to do.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Who is getting these book deals and how can I be friends with them?
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: How can I partner with them?
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: That was what made the difference for me is when I stopped trying to do everything
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: on my own and I stopped relying on the gig platforms.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm taking notes.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's a good one.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: What other tips do you have?
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the other things is just getting away.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: This is kind of a practical one.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: And not everybody likes this tip, but that's okay.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: I would say getting away from simple pricing models,
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: like charging per word and charging per hour, especially charging per hour.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: I tell people that you should get away from that because it's almost impossible to keep up with.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: And also, it's still an employee mindset.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's the bigger issue is if you are charging by hour,
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: you are only thinking of yourself like an employee.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now, there are some publishers who that's how they require you to invoice.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not going to say like there's not a time and place to do it, but.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say that sooner you can get away from like an hourly mindset and
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: an hourly pay structure, the better.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: So my method is a little convoluted, but it's a lot more fair to me and to what my Yeah.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: What is our estimated word count?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: And what happens if you quoted for a 50,000 word book,
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: but then the client ends up saying, no,
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: I want it to be 60,000 words,
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: like you get yourself into a bit of a pickle or,
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: or vice versa,
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: you planned on a 60,000 word book, but what What you got was a $50,000.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: Are you going to now have to refund money?
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to be in that position.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I take in all those factors.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: Estimated work count.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: What's the timeline that they want to do this project in?
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: What's the research scope?
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then I price out based on that.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not an exact science.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: There have been times I've gotten it wrong and I underpriced myself.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: But you learn.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: You learn that I think the sooner you can get away from an hourly rate or just
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: a word count rate and be a little bit more cohesive with it,
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: you're going to be paying yourself better
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: in the long run.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this is great, Jonathan.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: I learned a lot from you and I'm not surprised.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: So before we conclude, how can people reach you?
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you for everyone who joined us.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: If anyone has any questions, now it's the time to speak up or forever hold your peace.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: But if you have any questions for Jonathan, feel free to ask him.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, please.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: Anne Fernie saying hi, everyone.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: Hi.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: But so how can people reach you if they want to hire you,
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: if you want to subscribe to your newsletter, know about what you do?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's the time for your shameless plug.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, LinkedIn is obviously where I spend a lot of time.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: You can find me on there.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: The name of my Substack, if you haven't found it already, is ForWordWriters.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's F-O-R-W-O-R-D because I can't resist wordplay when it presents itself.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then,
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: like I mentioned at the front end of the call,
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: I recently launched or relaunched a YouTube channel.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been trying to post on there very consistently.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a horrible past two weeks for me on that front,
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: but I'll be getting back into it this weekend with content.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: So now the YouTube is named...
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Actually has the same name as my website.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it's Forward Writing, not Forward Writers.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's specifically just for the Substack.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_00: So you can find me all of those places.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: like I want you to learn because I don't want it to take you 10 years like it did
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: for me.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: But the good news,
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: like I promise,
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: if you do some of these things,
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: it will go faster because I was not making six figures my first Um,
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know, year as a full time writer, I became a full time writer in 2022.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: I still made more than my nine to two job, which is awesome.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I didn't make six figures until that next year,
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: that first full year, full calendar year, that was a full time writer.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's when I made six figures.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it was because I started doing all these things.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: I built the partnerships,
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: I started networking,
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: I started posting on LinkedIn,
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: like, Like, I'm telling you, and that makes the difference.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: It really, really does.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I started charging more.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: I started saying, okay,
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: I deserve to be paid a little bit more because my clients are getting results
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: from their books.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, this is great.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate your time.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I love your work.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: I enjoy it.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: And for anyone who's listening or watching, make sure to check out Jonathan Jordan's work.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: And thank you for joining us for another episode of Substack Writer's Salon.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: And until we meet again and see you on Substack.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Ntata.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: Take care.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you bet.