Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / TLC Reality Star Busted for Child Porn: On Trial

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TLC Reality Star Busted for Child Porn: On Trial · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:06
Speaker 1: Wow, what a fall from grace having your own show
0:14
Speaker 1: on TV on TLC, and then now you land in
0:19
Speaker 1: court with claims you are downloading and viewing some of
0:23
Speaker 1: the worst child pornography that is known crime stories with
0:36
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Of course, I'm talking about Josh Douger. Does
0:47
Speaker 1: anybody remember TLC's nineteen and counting, Well, maybe this will
0:53
Speaker 1: jog your memory. Take a listen. This is the story
0:56
Speaker 1: of my family. We're the Duggers. That's me. I'm Shaw.
1:00
Speaker 1: There's Jimbop, my wonderful husband, and our children. Josh is
1:04
Speaker 1: our oldest. He married Hannah and they had our first grandchildren,
1:09
Speaker 1: Ckenzie and Michael and Marcus. Then there's Jannah, John, David, Jill,
1:14
Speaker 1: she married Derek, Jesseph Ginger, Joseph, Josiah, Joyanna, Jedediah, Jeremiah's Jason, James,
1:23
Speaker 1: Justin Jackson, Johannah, Jennifer, Jordan, and our youngest daughter, Josie.
1:29
Speaker 1: That's a grand total of nineteen and I delivered every
1:33
Speaker 1: one of them. Of course, with this many kids, we
1:35
Speaker 1: do things a little different than the most films. It
1:38
Speaker 1: is it always easy, but somehow we got to all
1:40
Speaker 1: were Look, I'm not knocking big families. Power to them.
1:45
Speaker 1: I always wanted four children, I got to I only
1:48
Speaker 1: got to blessed with two. It's a better way to
1:51
Speaker 1: put it. At nineteen that's a little over the top
1:54
Speaker 1: for me. Don't care about that today. I care more
1:58
Speaker 1: about the fact that Josh Dugger is charged with child pornography,
2:05
Speaker 1: joining me an all star panel. Glenn Bard, retired Pennsylvania
2:09
Speaker 1: State Trooper, first Class. Now this is the important part
2:12
Speaker 1: computer crime investigations. That's why we need to talk to
2:18
Speaker 1: Glenn Bard, US veteran Operation Desert Storm. It goes on
2:22
Speaker 1: and on pat tech Digital. You can find him at
2:26
Speaker 1: pactech dot com. Sarah G. West excuse me, Doctor Sarah G. West,
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Speaker 1: forensic psychiatrist specializing in sexually deviant behavior and Associate Professor
2:37
Speaker 1: of Psychiatry Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine. It's
2:42
Speaker 1: a lot to take in because I've learned, doctor West,
2:46
Speaker 1: that very often we think we know people by seeing
2:51
Speaker 1: them all the time on TV and nineteen and counting
2:54
Speaker 1: ran a really long time. I understand on TLC and
2:59
Speaker 1: it wasn't just the mom and dad. There are these
3:02
Speaker 1: innocent child figures that you attached to and when you
3:07
Speaker 1: watch it every single episode, you start identifying with them. Look,
3:11
Speaker 1: I can't tell you what I went through when Monk.
3:14
Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever saw that when off
3:15
Speaker 1: the air, he was a detective with all sorts of
3:18
Speaker 1: emotional and mental disorders. I actually missed Monk. So when
3:24
Speaker 1: you attached to these people, it's very hard for you
3:28
Speaker 1: to viewer or a juror to think they could do
3:31
Speaker 1: anything wrong. Doctor West. Sure. So television shows, of course,
3:35
Speaker 1: have the benefit of leaving things on the editing room floor.
3:39
Speaker 1: They get to project an image of what they want
3:41
Speaker 1: you to see rather than what is actually going on
3:44
Speaker 1: behind the scenes, which they may or may not know about.
3:47
Speaker 1: You know, what is that feeling of familiarity that we
3:51
Speaker 1: think we know that person when really we don't. Sure,
3:56
Speaker 1: I don't think we really know anyone, you know. I
3:58
Speaker 1: noticed it, I guess the first time time during the O. J.
4:01
Speaker 1: Simpson trial, because the Girrars really thought they knew Simpson.
4:07
Speaker 1: Little didn't they know that my former co anchor Johnny
4:10
Speaker 1: Cochrane and others had gone through Simpson's house and completely
4:15
Speaker 1: redecorated regarding private photos, all sorts of art. So when
4:20
Speaker 1: the Gurrars walked through. They saw a completely different aspect
4:25
Speaker 1: of Simpson. I guess it wasn't an aspect of Simpson's.
4:28
Speaker 1: It wasn't even real, but it fit with what they
4:31
Speaker 1: thought they knew. Guys, we're talking about Josh Dugger, thirty
4:36
Speaker 1: three year old father multiple children himself now on trial
4:42
Speaker 1: for child pornography. I want to go first to Glenn
4:47
Speaker 1: Bard regarding what we know about Duger's computer. But first
4:53
Speaker 1: of all, take a listen to our friend Byron Pitts
4:56
Speaker 1: at ABC Nightline. Josh Dugger was arrested in Arkansas on Thursday,
5:02
Speaker 1: and on Friday the charges were revealed. The thirty three
5:06
Speaker 1: year old former nineteen Kids in Counting Star is accused
5:09
Speaker 1: of receiving and possessing child pornography. During a hearing over Zoom,
5:14
Speaker 1: Dugger pled not guilty to the federal charges. According to
5:19
Speaker 1: court documents. In May twenty nineteen, Dugger allegedly used the
5:23
Speaker 1: Internet to download child's sexual abuse material. He allegedly possessed
5:28
Speaker 1: the material, some of which involved the sexual abuse of
5:31
Speaker 1: children under the age of twelve. If convicted, Dugger faces
5:35
Speaker 1: up to twenty years in prison and finds up to
5:38
Speaker 1: two hundred fifty thousand dollars on each count. The count's
5:43
Speaker 1: here seemed to indicate that he went through quite a
5:47
Speaker 1: lot to download the porn. It's my understanding, Glenbard, former
5:53
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania State trooper, first class computer crime investigations expert, that
5:58
Speaker 1: he had all sorts of sawtware on his computer at
6:02
Speaker 1: work at the used car lot so it would not
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Speaker 1: alert his wife. He was looking at not just inappropriate
6:10
Speaker 1: sex material, but illegal sex material. I want to understand
6:15
Speaker 1: what he had was a dull boot system, and what
6:18
Speaker 1: that means is that it had a Windows opening system,
6:21
Speaker 1: but he could then boot into a Linux partition. And
6:24
Speaker 1: the reason why people do that not just this reason,
6:27
Speaker 1: but one of the reasons is because when it boots
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Speaker 1: into a Linux partition, all the software, the monitoring software,
6:33
Speaker 1: the networking software won't work on that Linux partition side. Okay,
6:37
Speaker 1: wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, Glenn Bard.
6:41
Speaker 1: I hate to interrupt you mid stream, but a lot
6:45
Speaker 1: of people don't know what you're saying because you're way
6:49
Speaker 1: way way deathcom for on this. You've got to talk
6:52
Speaker 1: not computer language, but regular people talk. So when I
6:57
Speaker 1: say I believe from the facts, the eight is trying
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Speaker 1: to prove that Josh Douger from nineteen in counting on
7:05
Speaker 1: TLC had special software on his computer so his wife
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Speaker 1: Anna at home would not be alerted he was looking
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Speaker 1: at child porn. So let's start with something easy for
7:23
Speaker 1: non techi's like myself to get their mind around. What
7:26
Speaker 1: is an alert on your computer that will notify somebody else,
7:31
Speaker 1: the third party, that you're doing something really naughty? What
7:36
Speaker 1: is that? There is monitoring software that will alert people
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Speaker 1: when something like pornography of being viewed or certain websites
7:44
Speaker 1: are being acced. Some people can use it to monitor
7:47
Speaker 1: their children, and other people will use it for like
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Speaker 1: the circumstances, maybe a person who had a history. Did
7:54
Speaker 1: you say some people use it to monitor their children,
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Speaker 1: like we have Bark b A RK and it's I
8:01
Speaker 1: had never heard of it before, but it alerts you
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Speaker 1: when your child goes onto a website that's bad for them.
8:09
Speaker 1: And let me tell you what happened the other day.
8:11
Speaker 1: Listen to this doctor West. So I got an alert
8:14
Speaker 1: that my son John David was into self harm. Well,
8:20
Speaker 1: I nearly did a backflip. I went on immediately because
8:24
Speaker 1: Bark had alerted me. Guess what it was? That week
8:27
Speaker 1: and I was there when it happened. He was defending
8:31
Speaker 1: a goal. He was goalie in a soccer game at school,
8:34
Speaker 1: and he dived almost sideways and his arm went through
8:38
Speaker 1: the net, and he was so proud that he had
8:41
Speaker 1: an injury. It was a bruise. So he took a
8:45
Speaker 1: picture of his bruise that he got and by the way,
8:49
Speaker 1: he did defend it and they did not score. The
8:51
Speaker 1: other team did not score, and he was so proud
8:54
Speaker 1: that he was showing it off. He took a picture
8:56
Speaker 1: of it with his cell phone and send it to
8:57
Speaker 1: some of his friends. Look what I got ending the goal.
9:01
Speaker 1: And Bart was so sensitive it picked up on that
9:04
Speaker 1: bruise and him taking a picture of it. It alerted me.
9:09
Speaker 1: Is you know so? I found that really interesting, doctor West,
9:15
Speaker 1: that that is so sensitive to pick up things just
9:20
Speaker 1: like that. Have you ever encountered that in your psychiatric practice.
9:25
Speaker 1: I have never seen the monitor software it youth, but
9:28
Speaker 1: certainly self harm is a huge issue with our adolescent
9:31
Speaker 1: population now so great that you are on top of that,
9:35
Speaker 1: I'm telling you. Sorry, okay, So let me ask you
9:37
Speaker 1: back to you, Glenn Bard. When you say that it's
9:42
Speaker 1: like parents who monitor their children what do you mean
9:45
Speaker 1: by that? What I mean is the software itself. What
9:48
Speaker 1: it does is it can be set up just monitor activities,
9:51
Speaker 1: a person's activities, whether it be spending too much time
9:55
Speaker 1: on social media or accessing websites that contain pornography. And
9:59
Speaker 1: it will do is it will notify a person. And
10:02
Speaker 1: it can be anything from just sending an email out
10:05
Speaker 1: or sending your Internet history to an email account, and
10:08
Speaker 1: that lets the person be able to know what's been
10:11
Speaker 1: going on on that computer system. So what I understand
10:14
Speaker 1: is Josh Digger had high tech software installed on his
10:18
Speaker 1: work computer to bypass the monitoring service that alerted wife
10:23
Speaker 1: Anna when he looked at quote mature teine porn the court.
10:30
Speaker 1: Here's Prime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking
10:48
Speaker 1: about Josh Digger. Take a listen to our cut three.
10:53
Speaker 1: This is Byron Pitts from ABC Nightline. For years, the
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Speaker 1: Dugger family has been portrayed on their TLC show Nineteen
11:01
Speaker 1: Kids in Counting as a wholesome Christian family with old
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Speaker 1: fashioned value. All right, let's all hold hands. Okay, no
11:08
Speaker 1: TV modest dress this one for the double date, no cursing,
11:11
Speaker 1: and above all, no premarital sex. We decided that there
11:15
Speaker 1: was going to be no kissing before marriage. But now
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Speaker 1: they are a family under fire after allegation surface their
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Speaker 1: oldest child, Josh Dugger, had inappropriate contact with several underage girls,
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Speaker 1: beginning when he was fourteen years old. Okay, it's a dichotomy,
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Speaker 1: and I want to talk to you about this, Doctor West,
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Speaker 1: that they present such a wholesome image. But yet we're
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Speaker 1: finding out that, according to the state, Josh Dugger downloaded
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Speaker 1: child porn and that is something people often do in
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Speaker 1: the privacy of their own home that others may have
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Speaker 1: no idea about. Actually, what's happening in the courtroom can
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Speaker 1: be very confusing if you're not a high tech computer
11:57
Speaker 1: juru like Glen barn But what's happening in that courtroom
12:02
Speaker 1: right now, our jarars are getting an overload a computer.
12:06
Speaker 1: Take education and child porn. Take a listen to our
12:10
Speaker 1: friend Craig O'Neill at THHV eleven. All eyes are on
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Speaker 1: Fable this week as the trial of Josh Dugger gets underway,
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Speaker 1: the former reality TV stars charged with two counts of
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Speaker 1: downloading and possessing child pornography. Jury's election started this morning
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Speaker 1: and the judge has yet to decide on whether the
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Speaker 1: prosecution can call Bobby Holt, a longtime friend of Dugger's,
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Speaker 1: to testify. The prosecution claims in two thousand and three
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Speaker 1: Dugger told Holt on several occasions he molested as many
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Speaker 1: as four minors for several years. Dugger's lawyer say Holt
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Speaker 1: should not testify because the things he said were at
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Speaker 1: a time that she was acting as his spiritual adviser,
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Speaker 1: with the understanding it would be confidential. If convicted, he
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Speaker 1: faces up to twenty years in prison, along with finds
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Speaker 1: him up to two one hundred and fifty thousand dollars
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Speaker 1: on each count. Now that is going to be an
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Speaker 1: issue on appeal if there is a conviction that evidence
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Speaker 1: of prior molestations of his sisters came into evidence front
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Speaker 1: of the jury. But take a listen now to our
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Speaker 1: friends at People magazine. This is our cut twenty five.
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Speaker 1: It's describing how Josh Digger's computer at work, not home,
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Speaker 1: was quote riddled with illicit material. I'm talking about child
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Speaker 1: porn with children as young as seven, maybe younger. Take
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Speaker 1: a listener, friends at People. On the third day of
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Speaker 1: Josh Dugger's trial on Thursday, an investigator detailed the personal
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Speaker 1: forensic investigation of three of the former Reality Stars devices.
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Speaker 1: One investigator, who spoke the longest and will continue speaking
13:50
Speaker 1: on the stand Friday, reveal details about evidence found on
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Speaker 1: Dugger's HP desktop computer from his office at a car lot.
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Speaker 1: The investigator testified that the machine was with illicit material.
14:01
Speaker 1: With the aid of a series of screenshots, the investigator
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Speaker 1: walked through some of what he saw and learned and
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Speaker 1: exploring the HP machine, He testified that there was a
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Speaker 1: program to install a Linux operating system which was downloaded
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Speaker 1: on the device just days before the computer was found
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Speaker 1: to be sharing the illicit material in May of twenty nineteen.
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Speaker 1: He explained that the program made it possible that while
14:22
Speaker 1: the public facing portion of the computer appeared to be
14:25
Speaker 1: mostly business related, the hard drive had in fact been
14:28
Speaker 1: split into another. Experts testimony described it as a separate
14:32
Speaker 1: computer on a computer. You know, I understand it was
14:36
Speaker 1: something called a Linux or Linux partition, which is a
14:40
Speaker 1: sophisticated piece of software creating a separate workspace on your computer.
14:47
Speaker 1: You install it as software on your computer, but then
14:50
Speaker 1: you open it up as if it's an entirely different device.
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Speaker 1: What about that glenbar. Does that make any sense to you?
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Speaker 1: Some people do that. What happens they describe it very well.
15:02
Speaker 1: They cut the hard drive in two. And what will
15:05
Speaker 1: happen is you can be using the window side, which
15:08
Speaker 1: we all use for work in many cases, but when
15:10
Speaker 1: you want to do something that you don't want the
15:13
Speaker 1: window side to see, or you just want to go
15:16
Speaker 1: into a different operating system, that machine can be turned
15:18
Speaker 1: off and turned back on and this time go into
15:21
Speaker 1: that Linux operating system. It's its own operating system and
15:25
Speaker 1: it gives you truly like a second computer. It's the
15:28
Speaker 1: same keyboard, the same monitor, the same housing itself, but
15:32
Speaker 1: it's a completely different operating system. And when you do that,
15:35
Speaker 1: what it allows it to do is any type of
15:38
Speaker 1: controls that would be in place on the window side
15:41
Speaker 1: won't be in control on that Linux side. We're talking
15:44
Speaker 1: about Josh dig Or, thirty three years old now reality
15:47
Speaker 1: star in a former hit series on TLCA, Nineteen Kids
15:50
Speaker 1: in Counting. It was a staple on TLC, a highly
15:55
Speaker 1: rating network, to Jackie Howard joining us from Crime Online
15:59
Speaker 1: dot Com. Prosecutors have said in open court and these
16:02
Speaker 1: are their words, not mine, that dog downloaded images and
16:07
Speaker 1: videos of young girls as young as seven years old
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Speaker 1: being quote abused, violated, and exploited, including files named such
16:21
Speaker 1: names as Daisies, Destruction, Playboy Sweetie, and Peto Mom. I
16:30
Speaker 1: understand that there was a Little Right Police Department special
16:35
Speaker 1: task force called Torrential Downpour. It was an undercover online
16:41
Speaker 1: investigation to unmask pedophiles and perverts. I understand that there
16:47
Speaker 1: was footage of girls aged seven and nine being raped
16:52
Speaker 1: by an adult male and sixty five images at least
16:58
Speaker 1: of a young girl seven or eight years old being
17:02
Speaker 1: sexually abused and then placed in a dog channel. Jackie Howard,
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Speaker 1: is it true that several of the jurars actually looked
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Speaker 1: away as snippets of this material was shown to them
17:20
Speaker 1: on monitors? That is true, Nancy. Obviously it's a very
17:23
Speaker 1: difficult situation and that is not easily trilled to look at.
17:27
Speaker 1: But we also know that Josh Duger's family was affected.
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Speaker 1: In fact, his wife actually got up and walked out
17:33
Speaker 1: of the courtroom in tears at that time. What does
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Speaker 1: it mean, Glenn Bard? The court heard that Kalmer, who
17:41
Speaker 1: was with the Little Rock Police, tipped off federal investigators
17:46
Speaker 1: and they traced the quote IP addressed to Josh Duggers
17:52
Speaker 1: used car dealership, wholesale motor cars. What does that mean
17:56
Speaker 1: to trace an IPS? What is that? So the IP
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Speaker 1: address is Internet protocol and what that is It's a
18:05
Speaker 1: number that will identify a network on the Internet. Kind
18:09
Speaker 1: of like your phone number will identify your series of
18:13
Speaker 1: phones at your home. The same thing happens in the Internet.
18:16
Speaker 1: It's just a series of numbers that will identify a
18:19
Speaker 1: network access the Internet through one access point or a router.
18:24
Speaker 1: So what they do is they can take that IP
18:26
Speaker 1: address and it will tell them the i ST Internet
18:29
Speaker 1: service provider, And what they do then is sort of
18:33
Speaker 1: legal process on an i ST, who will then in
18:36
Speaker 1: turn and tell them where that network comes back to
18:39
Speaker 1: physically the physical location of that IP address at that time.
18:43
Speaker 1: You know what, if I'm really interesting Jackie Howard joining
18:46
Speaker 1: some crime online when the fans came in and grab
18:50
Speaker 1: his desktop at work wholesale Motors, he said, without having
18:55
Speaker 1: any idea of why they took the computer. Quote has
19:00
Speaker 1: someone downloaded child porn? Okay, you've heard me say this
19:04
Speaker 1: till I'm sure you're blue in the face. Me. Thanks,
19:07
Speaker 1: thou doth protest too much? It's like you buy a
19:12
Speaker 1: cop at the mall and you say, hey, I wasn't
19:15
Speaker 1: part of that smashing grab, and nobody asked that's what
19:18
Speaker 1: he did, Jackie. Has someone downloaded child pornography? It is
19:22
Speaker 1: what he did, Nancy. And given his history that he
19:25
Speaker 1: has admitted in the best to having an issue in
19:28
Speaker 1: having been to a treatment center during his marriage, he
19:31
Speaker 1: was very open with his life. And they actually installed
19:34
Speaker 1: on that computer a program called Covenant Eyes. They subscribed
19:39
Speaker 1: to this in twenty thirteen, so we're looking at about
19:44
Speaker 1: eight years ago. And this program would alert his wife
19:49
Speaker 1: to any adult Internet usage and it would report that
19:53
Speaker 1: back to Anna Duger. Now, the information that was set up,
19:58
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, on the Lynxious system, was in a
20:01
Speaker 1: partition and had a password that was intail. The password
20:08
Speaker 1: was the same password that he used to do his
20:11
Speaker 1: banking information. So it's very unlikely that anybody hacked in
20:16
Speaker 1: and decided to use the exact same password for what
20:19
Speaker 1: he did his banking with. Okay, tell me that again,
20:21
Speaker 1: Jackie Howard. I understand that his password involved his birthday,
20:26
Speaker 1: like the year. I mean, does anybody ever get tired
20:28
Speaker 1: of using their birthday or the year they were born
20:31
Speaker 1: like Superstar in nineteen ninety eight, when you were born
20:36
Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety eight. I mean he used his birthday
20:40
Speaker 1: and his password. His password was intail nineteen eighty eight.
20:46
Speaker 1: And again that's the same password that he used for
20:48
Speaker 1: his Internet banking crime stories with Nancy Grace to Sarah g. West,
21:08
Speaker 1: I'm just a JD. You're the MD in psychiatry. Help
21:13
Speaker 1: me out. First, I want to talk to you about
21:14
Speaker 1: the wife, Okay, and this is not her fault. She's
21:17
Speaker 1: not the one downloading child porn according to prosecutors. I
21:20
Speaker 1: mean sick child porn where you rate a seven year
21:23
Speaker 1: old girl and then put her in a dog kennel.
21:27
Speaker 1: I could say more, but I'm not. I'm not. So
21:31
Speaker 1: Why does the wife, They've got seven children together. Why
21:36
Speaker 1: does a wife stay with somebody that she knows? Sarah
21:41
Speaker 1: addicted to not just pornography, but child pornography. Well, I
21:46
Speaker 1: would suggest as the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual or the
21:50
Speaker 1: psychiatry Bible would tell us that looking at this kind
21:55
Speaker 1: of material as an illness, and you know, if you
21:59
Speaker 1: view it through that limb, then you would maybe be
22:03
Speaker 1: more tempted to stick around and see somebody through their illness.
22:07
Speaker 1: I'm sorry seeing it as an illness, Okay, I understand that.
22:13
Speaker 1: But have you ever known doctor West with me? Sarah G. West,
22:18
Speaker 1: forensic psychiatrist. You can find her at Forensic Psychiatry MD
22:23
Speaker 1: dot com Sarah West. And all the years that I
22:28
Speaker 1: prosecuted child molestation and sex offenses, I never saw one
22:33
Speaker 1: child molester get rehabilitated. It's in their DNA. I don't
22:39
Speaker 1: think they can change it. If you disagree, tell me
22:43
Speaker 1: why well. I do think there are some treatment options
22:46
Speaker 1: available that may make it less likely that they would
22:49
Speaker 1: re engage in that kind of behavior. You mean like
22:52
Speaker 1: Pavslov's dogs. In other words, they still want to do
22:57
Speaker 1: the naughty thing, but they know they're going to get
23:00
Speaker 1: zapped if they do it. The impulse to do it
23:03
Speaker 1: never goes away, but they can be trained not to
23:06
Speaker 1: do it. Is that what you're saying? That is a
23:08
Speaker 1: very psychological approach to that, And yes, I think that
23:11
Speaker 1: is quite possible. How is that different from what you said?
23:15
Speaker 1: I would say that it's probably a little more complex.
23:18
Speaker 1: I think that you could probably decrease the impulses as well,
23:24
Speaker 1: but that would be the more challenging piece. Controlling the
23:26
Speaker 1: behavior is absolutely the thing that we need to be
23:28
Speaker 1: mindful of, and there are a couple of techniques that
23:31
Speaker 1: psychiatrists and psychologists both utilize to do that. The first
23:35
Speaker 1: is therapy. The mainstay of therapy is victim empathy. I
23:39
Speaker 1: think that that is a nice way to teach people
23:42
Speaker 1: that what they're doing hurts other folks. And the second,
23:45
Speaker 1: probably more intrusive form, is medication. Medication can decrease such
23:50
Speaker 1: drive and decrease somebody's likelihood that they would be able
23:54
Speaker 1: to physically act on those imputs. So basically you're saying,
23:59
Speaker 1: let me just put it in regular people talk. Decrease
24:03
Speaker 1: sex activity so the perp can't get an erection. That
24:08
Speaker 1: is one of the methods. Yes, Another method would be
24:11
Speaker 1: the utilization of a medication that's real commons. They're SSRIs
24:16
Speaker 1: selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. More commonly people might know prozac,
24:21
Speaker 1: zolof those are actually medications that decreased sex drive, decrease
24:26
Speaker 1: sexual desire. It's a side effect. We can use that
24:30
Speaker 1: side effect to treat people who have unusual sexual impulses.
24:35
Speaker 1: So you say unusual sex impulses, I call them felonies.
24:39
Speaker 1: But doctor West, So you're one treatment to decrease the
24:46
Speaker 1: urge for child sex or child porn is to dope
24:49
Speaker 1: them up, But the minute they get off the drugs,
24:52
Speaker 1: they're right back at it. My question is, is there
24:55
Speaker 1: a way, to your knowledge, to cure them, to stop
24:59
Speaker 1: them forever having the impulse to have sex with children
25:04
Speaker 1: which is rape or look at child point, to make
25:07
Speaker 1: that urge go away. I do not think there's a
25:10
Speaker 1: way to entirely make that urge go away. So doctor West,
25:15
Speaker 1: like it or not, I think you agree with me
25:18
Speaker 1: because I've never seen a child molester, to my chagrin, ever,
25:24
Speaker 1: be cured. When I was a knee prosecutor, I was
25:28
Speaker 1: besieged by defense attorneys that wanted me to send their
25:31
Speaker 1: client to treatment facilities instead of to jail. I did
25:36
Speaker 1: at once. It was a mistake. It was a mistake.
25:40
Speaker 1: I never did it again because I learned the hard way.
25:45
Speaker 1: I learned the hard way. It doesn't work. I don't
25:49
Speaker 1: think it works. I do think it depends on insight.
25:51
Speaker 1: If people recognize they have a problem and are motivated
25:55
Speaker 1: to solve it. But like any other medical condition diabetes,
25:58
Speaker 1: high blood pressure, then they can do the things that
26:02
Speaker 1: are necessary to keep it under control. You know, Jackie,
26:05
Speaker 1: I want to go back to you, Jackie Howard. Dougger
26:08
Speaker 1: says he was quote his words, not mine, vaguely familiar
26:12
Speaker 1: with the password Intel nineteen eighty eight, prompting a brief
26:17
Speaker 1: but furious exchange of Roberts, who accused him of hiding information.
26:24
Speaker 1: So long story short, he admits that's his password. He
26:28
Speaker 1: knows it's his password, and what was he used in
26:30
Speaker 1: the password? For Jackie Howard, he was using it to
26:33
Speaker 1: access his banking information and good lord, I'm a JD,
26:39
Speaker 1: not a d D. That's not a pool teeth. I
26:41
Speaker 1: can certainly try, Jackie Howard. He was also using it
26:45
Speaker 1: to look at videos of seven to eight year old
26:47
Speaker 1: girls being sexually abused, i e. Raped and put in
26:52
Speaker 1: dog kennels. Take a listen to yet, Okay, what go ahead?
26:56
Speaker 1: And if you did not have access to that password
26:59
Speaker 1: for the teian on his computery, no one else could
27:03
Speaker 1: access that. No one else can access that. Guys, I
27:08
Speaker 1: want you to take a listen to our cut thirty two.
27:11
Speaker 1: This is em mcclaybrook at forty twenty nine News, before
27:15
Speaker 1: the forensics expert took the stand. The jury heard from
27:18
Speaker 1: three former Dugger family friends. The final witness testified that
27:22
Speaker 1: Dugger allegedly touched the private parts of four juveniles in
27:25
Speaker 1: two thousand and three when he was fifteen. Judge Tim
27:28
Speaker 1: Brooks told the jury that Dugger is not charged with
27:31
Speaker 1: child molestation in this case. In this case, he's only
27:34
Speaker 1: charged with possessing and receiving child pornography. But the judge
27:38
Speaker 1: says he allowed the testimony to stand today to help
27:41
Speaker 1: set up a motive for the current charges duggers facing.
27:45
Speaker 1: And let me understand that Sarah West a motive for
27:49
Speaker 1: the and similar transactions are allowed. That means, let's say
27:55
Speaker 1: I charge Jackie Howard with pulling a still and pistol
28:01
Speaker 1: whipping Kara here in the studio, just off the top
28:05
Speaker 1: of my head, and she's being tried for that. Jackie,
28:09
Speaker 1: you know I don't like you anymore after you pistol
28:12
Speaker 1: whipped her. But I can, then, as the prosecutor, bring
28:16
Speaker 1: in that on another occasion she pistol whipped somebody else,
28:20
Speaker 1: that she threw a gun at somebody else, that she
28:23
Speaker 1: is prone to gun violence. They are brought in to
28:27
Speaker 1: show motive, course of conduct, frame of mind intent. They
28:34
Speaker 1: tend to prove the case in chief, although the jury
28:37
Speaker 1: is not considering those charges for sentencing or guilt or innocence.
28:41
Speaker 1: That's what's happening here. So let me understand this, doctor West.
28:45
Speaker 1: The prosecutor brought in previous examples of him molesting his
28:52
Speaker 1: sisters to show motive, and the sisters were young, they
28:57
Speaker 1: were under age at the time, considered children the eyes
29:00
Speaker 1: of the law to show motive for downloading child porn.
29:03
Speaker 1: Does that make sense to you, doctor West? It does
29:06
Speaker 1: make sense. But we would look at someone's past behavior
29:10
Speaker 1: to get a better sense of what's going on currently. Absolutely,
29:14
Speaker 1: something that I do when I work with folks who
29:16
Speaker 1: have a history of sex defense has examine what has
29:19
Speaker 1: happened in the path to get a better understanding of
29:21
Speaker 1: what's going on right now. I don't understand, doctor West,
29:24
Speaker 1: how when you've already been in trouble for sex related crimes,
29:30
Speaker 1: that you're willing to risk your livelihood, your marriage, losing
29:35
Speaker 1: your seven children because if he's convicted of child porn,
29:40
Speaker 1: he's not going to have access or visitation, unfettered visitation
29:44
Speaker 1: with his children. That's not going to happen. No, you're right,
29:47
Speaker 1: Why would risk it all? So it is a difficult
29:52
Speaker 1: pill to swallow. But again I'll go back to the
29:54
Speaker 1: concept that this is an illness in the same way
29:57
Speaker 1: that we wonder why folks continue to drink after they've
29:59
Speaker 1: had ten DUIs, this is the same thing. Crime stories
30:17
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, you know to Glenn barn former Pennsylvania
30:22
Speaker 1: State True for our first class computer crime investigations. You
30:26
Speaker 1: can find them at pactech dot Forensics pactech dot com. Glenn,
30:34
Speaker 1: have you seen this before where people that download child
30:40
Speaker 1: porn go through extreme and elaborate measures to hide it? Absolutely,
30:46
Speaker 1: a lot of times when I've seen personally from my
30:49
Speaker 1: investigations that child important A lot of times will be
30:53
Speaker 1: something that's very important to them, and like the same
30:57
Speaker 1: way that you protect things very important to you, whether
30:59
Speaker 1: it be you know, your children and so on, like that,
31:02
Speaker 1: that's they do with this sort of stuff. I've seen
31:04
Speaker 1: almost ubindical things where people will go to great length
31:07
Speaker 1: about hiding it or even I remember one case in particular,
31:11
Speaker 1: I had a person who had his family living in
31:14
Speaker 1: utter filth in a house. The house is deplorable, it
31:17
Speaker 1: was I mean, I felt terrible just walking through there.
31:20
Speaker 1: But when you walked into that guy's computer room. He
31:23
Speaker 1: actually kept covers and cloth on the computers to keep
31:27
Speaker 1: them clean and safe. He had his children living in utter,
31:30
Speaker 1: absolute filth, but those computer systems were protected and covered
31:35
Speaker 1: and kept safe. And the reason why is because it
31:38
Speaker 1: was on them was toil pornography. It was kind of
31:40
Speaker 1: like almost the focal point of everything that he had
31:44
Speaker 1: in his life. So this is not surprising to hear
31:47
Speaker 1: the sort of thing taking too I think to say it,
31:49
Speaker 1: you know another thing, don't yeah, jump in one of
31:53
Speaker 1: the things that's also important to remember they in regards
31:55
Speaker 1: to this one, that's partition that he had on his computer.
31:58
Speaker 1: Not only that he had software that would also circumvent
32:03
Speaker 1: any search and make sure that the monitoring program that
32:07
Speaker 1: he had in his life had installed on the computer
32:09
Speaker 1: would not work and would not notify her. So he
32:12
Speaker 1: went to extreme measures. And my question to you, doctor
32:16
Speaker 1: Sarah West, is I don't quite how to say this,
32:23
Speaker 1: but sometimes it seems to me that the effort, the conniving,
32:29
Speaker 1: the scams, this secrecy, all of the labyrinth they go
32:37
Speaker 1: through to hide something adds to the thrill of it,
32:41
Speaker 1: you know, like, uh, let's see people that are cheating
32:44
Speaker 1: on their spouse. They go through all this drama to
32:48
Speaker 1: register at a hotel under a different name and paying
32:51
Speaker 1: cash and where a hat and sung glasses when they
32:54
Speaker 1: go on. It's crazy to me, but to them that's
32:59
Speaker 1: part of the excitement of it. Potentially, Yeah, and there
33:02
Speaker 1: is a whole community out there on the dark web
33:05
Speaker 1: who exchanges this information. The You know, once you worked
33:09
Speaker 1: with a couple of these offenders, you get a better
33:11
Speaker 1: sense of how deep this goes. Guys, we are talking
33:15
Speaker 1: about a reality TV star, Josh Dugger right now on
33:21
Speaker 1: trial for downloading images of child porn. Straight back out
33:25
Speaker 1: to Jackie Howard, Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter Jackie,
33:30
Speaker 1: you and I have taught in depth with For instance,
33:34
Speaker 1: our friend will call her Alicia, Alicia Kay who was
33:40
Speaker 1: raped and molested as a young child, and her molester
33:45
Speaker 1: took hundreds and hundreds of photos and video images of
33:49
Speaker 1: her and to this day they're still being traded on
33:54
Speaker 1: the dark web. And how much, to this day, years
33:59
Speaker 1: decades later, it still upsets these victims. These images are
34:06
Speaker 1: being traded like baseball cards. Jackie Howard, say, Laurie Nancy
34:10
Speaker 1: and the rings that these pictures get passed in on
34:15
Speaker 1: the dark web and through message boards by pedophiles and
34:20
Speaker 1: six abuse people who watch porn, and it's just a circle,
34:25
Speaker 1: and they enjoy sharing. It's it's almost like a hobby
34:29
Speaker 1: in a way. They enjoy sharing what they have found
34:32
Speaker 1: and what they've seen with other people who are abusers.
34:36
Speaker 1: If I were in court right now, I would stay,
34:40
Speaker 1: look you dead in eyes and tell you what's on
34:43
Speaker 1: those images. The videos I've already told you about the
34:47
Speaker 1: little girls being raped, one little girl being molested and
34:51
Speaker 1: thrown in a dog pin. There's so many more that
34:55
Speaker 1: are even more graphic. Little children being sexually abused and
35:02
Speaker 1: forced to pose in certain ways in front of the camera.
35:06
Speaker 1: Those children will never be the same. I've worked with.
35:13
Speaker 1: I can't even count how many molestation victims. Children They
35:18
Speaker 1: go on to live, to have a job, maybe have
35:22
Speaker 1: a family. They're never ever the same. And these purrs
35:29
Speaker 1: are trading these sex images child porn like their baseball cards.
35:36
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut thirty one Zoe Henry
35:40
Speaker 1: five News Day six here in Fayetteville for the Joshua
35:44
Speaker 1: Dugger trial wrapped up, and the biggest thing from today
35:47
Speaker 1: was there's no more evidence to be presented in this
35:49
Speaker 1: case and the defense wrapped it rested its case earlier today.
35:55
Speaker 1: That came after the prosecution cross examined the defenses computer
36:00
Speaker 1: forensic analyst, and the defenses argument came up again, what
36:04
Speaker 1: is there possibility for remote access for someone to get
36:06
Speaker 1: into this dealership computer and download those child pornographic images?
36:11
Speaker 1: Now the analyst says that there was software for remote access,
36:15
Speaker 1: but there was no evidence that those remote access software
36:19
Speaker 1: were used in the time period in question. Now to
36:23
Speaker 1: end the prosecution today, brought back Department of Justice to
36:27
Speaker 1: representative we wait as justice unfolds, and that Arkansas courtroom,
36:33
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crimes to our signing off. Goodbye friend,