Latest / The Resting Stitch Face Podcast / Professionalism or Conformity? Who Decides What a Dentist Should Look Like?
Transcript
- Sarah Harding: Hello, and welcome back for another episode of the Resting Stitch Face Podcast. I'm your co-host, Dr. Sarah Harding, along with Erin Sheffield: Dr. Aaron Sheffield, welcome back to another episode. Sarah Harding: Welcome back. Erin Sheffield: Today we want to talk about who gets to decide what a professional looks and sounds like, and when does professionalism actually code for conformity? Sarah Harding: We know this one all too well. Yes. Erin Sheffield: Deep thoughts, right? I know. Sarah Harding: Yes, we know this all too well. Erin Sheffield: Yeah, so have you seen what's in the the dental news this week, Sarah? Sarah Harding: A little bit. You're kind of my news source. But I did see the Erin Sheffield: I'm on social media way too long and that's where I get all my news. You're right. Sarah Harding: I saw the post from the ADA talking about the way that we talk to each other. And you and I have had this conversation a lot in terms of social media and how can our patients trust us if this is the way that we treat each other. but I did see that post from the ADA and I was like, what is that about? And so then I saw your post about it and I was like, that's what this is going on. So can you tell our audience a little bit about what's going on just in case they haven't heard. Erin Sheffield: Yeah, definitely. Well, to go back to you saying we've had these conversations, I recorded a video of myself. I gave this rant about basically, I think it's so weird that you say do no harm and we take this oath and we're caretakers and we're supposed to be compassionate. And then we come online and we just rip each other to shreds in the comments. And Sarah Harding: Hm, yeah. Erin Sheffield: that just seems really misaligned with who we're supposed to be and the calling that we've taken on. And so I made that post before I even heard about any of this going on. And then I wanted to respond to this particular situation. And then I thought, I already did. It fits in perfectly. So Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: it's not just this one episode which I want to make clear. Like I think this is a really kind of egregious one or one that's getting a lot of visibility, but it's happening all the time as well. So I think talking about it's really important. But essentially this new dentist, this new dental grad posted, I think about, you know, yay, I graduated. I'm a dentist now. I think his name is Dr. Jalen Johnson. And he had someone in the comments who was an periodontist, say, You are a dentist question mark? Dude, you are ghetto. And so instead of just letting it ride, you know, he kind of called it out and, you know, showed what he'd done. And now there's been a huge public response to this, which is just really interesting. what have you heard? Have you heard anything about this dentist that responded and what's going on with him? Sarah Harding: I haven't. No. I it I think that what they said on the ADA website was that it was a non-ADA member. and then they just said that regardless of your membership status, we all should be upholding, the pillars of professionalism and ethics and there's no reason to say things like that. You Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Sarah Harding: know. Erin Sheffield: Well, I've tried to do a little bit of sleuthing on this. If anything is inaccurate, I'm sorry. Some of it was kind of hard to confirm. But basically what I've understood is that I think originally he responded by backtracking and saying his account was hacked. So I don't know if that's true. That's what I keep seeing. Yes. huh. I didn't that's not what I said. Sarah Harding: come on. That's the thing. That's the same gaslighting bull crap that you got. It's a joke. Erin Sheffield: Yeah. So I I haven't confirmed that, but I've seen multiple people saying that. So I again, if that's not true, I'm sorry to perpetuate misinformation. But seems like that may be actually what's happened here. And then he has kind of backtracked and apologized. And I wish I had his apology in front of now, but essentially it was like I never meant to be racist or to say anything that would be unkind or hurtful. And what do you what did you intend by that, sir, if it wasn't meant to be unkind or offensive or hurtful? Sarah Harding: Right. Yeah. Way to go. Erin Sheffield: Maybe that's him saying that it was a joke, which again we talked about how that's like my pet peeve. Just saying it's a joke, so then you can make that person feel bad they felt bad. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Yeah. And at the end of the day, yeah. And you know, when it comes down to it, I having grown up in the South and then subsequently moved around a lot, you know, the more exposure that you have to different places and different people, the more you begin to, understand that some of the things that you grew up with were maybe a little questionable, right? Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Sarah Harding: And so things that you just thought were normal. because even talking with Hori, who I work with here, talking about the inward, there was an issue with some dance team and some person on the dance team got kicked off because this whole thing. And her daughter was like, What is the inward? Like, what is why is everybody so upset? What is this inward? You know, like just but living in California, having grown up in California, just Wasn't even part of the equation. But growing up in the South, you know, I heard it all the time. And I knew that it I knew with by the intonation of it that it was probably not something that should be said and something that wasn't taken Erin Sheffield: Mm. Sarah Harding: right. And then, but I also didn't really understand how it was said all the time. And why did people do that? but I grew up around it. And so it's just so interesting because I think the more you're exposed to these sorts of things, the more you get a better understanding of the world, right? And As a period honest, so you're probably gonna be at least 34 years old. You've probably left your hometown at some point to go to school, to go, you've been around lots of different people, you know. you know what you're doing, right? You know what you're doing when you're saying those things. And I think that people become these keyboard ninjas and they don't they think that they're anonymous. They think that. they're not being held they don't need they won't be held accountable or that they were just being funny or whatever it is. Like keep your internal thoughts internal, just the same as you would if you saw somebody on the street, right? Erin Sheffield: Yeah, definitely. Well, and I don't get the sense that this periodontist is some like run-of-the-mill white guy either. Like I saw some posts of, you know, looks like maybe he's a Muslim American or maybe an immigrant or something too. And that's disappointing to me. It's kind of like girl on girl violence. That's like my one of my least favorite things is when women are misogynistic to women. You know, like remember those things that happened to you. Like let's support each other. And you would think that, you know, if you've Maybe maybe they haven't experienced any kind of discrimination or whatnot, but I would think that that would be something if he truly is a Muslim American would have experienced and and remember that that feels and how bad it feels. Sarah Harding: Right. Right. Right. Erin Sheffield: So I know the National Dental Association came out with a comment and they said there's an important distinction between professionalism and conformity. And I thought that was really Powerful and a lot of what I I say too, you know, I've been harping Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: on these old definitions of professionalism for years. You know, I've always been like, why is the hair that you grow on your head inherently unprofessional? Like that just doesn't make sense to me. Sarah Harding: Right. Erin Sheffield: And then this guy, it was because of his locks, I assume, that the man made the comment. So it really did probably come down to his hair and the color of his skin. But I don't know, what do you think? Sarah Harding: Well and again, it just it keeps it's just a continuous, it's a continuous conversation that we keep having, right? Like Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Sarah Harding: when I was in the Navy, they were starting to come out with policies where they were being more accepting of wearing your hair like God gave it to you, right? Because that's what you got, you know? And so Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Sarah Harding: it was so interesting because watching these men and women, you know, mostly women, because that's what I was, you know, that's who I was talking to about it. having to go to these great lengths to hide their hair, to make sure that there's no hair sticking out, and doing all of this extra stuff just to fit in with the uniform is ridiculous, you know? And so I think that you're downgrading a person's worth by making it solely about the way that they look. and I just it's it's insane. You know, they were talking about. I understand you don't want to have like, you know, things that are out of the natural palette, right? Like you probably would be not appropriate if I showed up with purple hair and I was in the United States Navy. Fine, right? but that God didn't give me that hair. and so, you know, things like that. I get that, but it was but they really got called out when it became Sort of discriminatory, you know what I mean? Because it's like, you're gonna you're required to do all of these extra things in order to fit in with what we think is the uniform. You're like, well, you let me in. So clearly I fit the uniform, you know? So, but I think that you're right. I think that that is a really powerful way to say it. That the blurred line between is it professionalism, or are you just wanting me to conform to what you want everybody to? B. Erin Sheffield: Well, and I think so much of professionalism is about the image. So much of it is what you wear, how you look. And certainly we should have some kind of standards, you know, like some looks are not appropriate for showing up to the office to take care of patients. Like wearing a mini skirt is probably not appropriate, partly 'cause I have to open my legs to straddle the chair to get in there to get close enough Sarah Harding: Right. Erin Sheffield: to work with you. You know, so like some of it is just very practical. but for me, professionalism's a lot more to do with taking care of patients in the right way Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Erin Sheffield: than it is about how anyone looks. And so I think we focus on the Sarah Harding: Yeah. Yeah. And I think really it comes down to Erin Sheffield: wrong things. Sarah Harding: Yeah. And it comes down to how we approach our patients, how we approach our teams, and how we approach our colleagues. Right? Yeah. but I think Erin Sheffield: Amen. Podcast is over. Shortest episode yet. But yeah. Sarah Harding: we've like I said before, we've gone over this so many times. You know, there was this social media posts going around that were I look like a surgeon and it was women posting it because, you know, we're so used to somebody coming like, are you the nurse? And you're like, No, I your surgeon And they're like, but you're too young or you're a girl, or you know, whatever. And so there was a whole thing about that Erin Sheffield: Yeah, I mean I think these hit home for us because we get it too. You know, as women we get those comments all the time and Yeah, that's interesting. Your hair's not professional or you know, Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: I remember even in dental school, it's confusing because you wanna look well groomed, you wanna look put together, you wanna look good. But if you wear too much makeup, then that's not good and that's unprofessional or that's distracting or whatever they wanna call it. But if you don't wear any makeup, sometimes you'll be reprimanded for that. I remember some nurse had made a post that her manager came On the floor, and she was supposed to be leaving after maybe even a 14-hour shift to pick up some extra time for someone. And they commented, like, you should really put some lipstick on before you come to work or something, and just Excuse me? Are the male nurses supposed to put on lipstick? Have they ever been told to put on a little blush to look more professional, look more presentable? Sarah Harding: Right. I'm sorry. I didn't realize that that would help me take care of patients better. Erin Sheffield: And also, does she have to go back in Maybe she needs some more paid break time so she can go reapply her makeup. 'Cause whose makeup is pristine after a twelve hour shift? Sarah Harding: Right. Well, and even outside of medicine, I was on the flight back from New Mexico the other day, and I sat next to a flight attendant and she had the same thing happen to her. Her manager, before she went on, I think she was doing a Tahiti flight or something, like a long haul flight. And her manager came up to her and said, Your uniform is too tight. And she's like, I mean, I was on my period, I was bloated. Like, I'm sorry that it's a little bit too tight. I mean, I've seen plenty of them that are form fitting, and I've never been like, wow, that's too tight, you know? And so, she made her no, Erin Sheffield: Was that in front of you as well? Sarah Harding: no, no, this was like previously. And she said, Erin Sheffield: okay. I was like, wow. Sarah Harding: because this was the gal that was sitting next to. So this was just something that had happened Erin Sheffield: I see, yeah. Sarah Harding: to her. And she said that the same manager went and found some uniform and that was some extra thing. And had her change into that. And she was like, it was a tent. I was wearing a tent. And then she was like, then I was so embarrassed the whole trip because now I look like frumpy and like I, you know, just looked awful and I felt awful. And I, you know, that's the thing, right? Is like, if you, if you're trying to make me look like something else, how can I perform my best? How can I do my Erin Sheffield: Well, if she showed Sarah Harding: best? Erin Sheffield: up looking that way too, they probably would have reprimanded her the other way. Like you look too sloppy. But since it Sarah Harding: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can't win. I mean it's just the Erin Sheffield: was their intervention, it was better. Yeah. I think as women we've all kind of faced those moments of correction, which is Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: frustrating. Sarah Harding: Yeah. In terms of residency, I think we've talked about this before as well. I think when you look at a lot of the women that go through oral surgery residency, you see the two different camps, right? I think one of my things was I remember going on an externship to Walter Reed and while I was in dental school, and there was a one of the residents was a female and she had like a pink water bottle. And I was like, yeah. You know what I mean? And like such silly little things. But I was like, that woman is maintaining That. But then you have the other camp that just tries to conform, that tries to be one of the bros, to, you know, and that just feels so icky to me on the inside. Because again, like if I'm acting outside of what is in alignment with who I am, like I I just feel so uncomfortable. And how can I perform my best when I am not in alignment with feeling? you know, who I am and what my values are. And if I'm trying to be somebody else, then I'm not. And I mean, we're all that way, right? We're talking imposter syndrome to the max here. You know, we're all that way a little bit. And so already in an environment where you don't feel like you're ever able to compete, where you feel like you're always, you know, on the outside trying to figure it out. I mean, what do we need? One more thing to make us feel insecure. Erin Sheffield: Yeah, I think so often professionalism means trying to mold yourself and contort yourself to fit into a box that you could never fit in. You're never meant to fit in. And Sarah Harding: Right. Erin Sheffield: it's so freeing to find your own box or to find your own pattern to fit into and to fill to the fullest instead of trying to shrink and remodel yourself. And back to your comment about in residency, either conform or or don't. I used to be proud of myself. I get along with dudes. I've always been good friends with boys growing up. And one of the other residents had once said, like there kind of some locker room chat going on. And he was like, Sheffield's cool. She's like one of the dudes. And I was like so proud of myself in that moment. Like, yes. And and I've even talked to other women, surgeons, like, well. You know, you're the only one. That's gotta be hard sometimes. Make sure you don't lose who you are. And they'll be like, no, it's great. I'm just like one of the guys. And they just pat themselves on the back. And it's great to be collegial and it's great to foster those relationships. And it's great to be one on a team. But it's also when it comes at the expense of losing parts of yourself, molding yourself to be something that you're not, then I think that's what you're talking about. Like you lose something and my patients lose something. Sarah Harding: Mm-hmm. Erin Sheffield: When I'm not being my kind of funny off the cuff flirty personality that's just who I Sarah Harding: Authentic. Yeah. Erin Sheffield: am, you know, I think they miss out a little bit. Like the patients who get that fun side of me, I think it's really helpful with their anxiety and having a positive experience. But when it's like, that's not professional. And I've got to talk in this certain voice and Sarah Harding: Right. Erin Sheffield: only talk about Dental things, you know, that's like a Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: whole other experience and showing your human side. And I think that's really helpful for patients. And that's changing a little bit maybe in medicine. Sarah Harding: Right. Yeah. Because I think so much of what we bring to the table is our lived experiences. Right. And so, you know, I think that the lived experiences of Dr. Johnson are very different from my lived experiences. And his patients probably benefit significantly from that, right? Because he probably has a different understanding of some other aspect of life that I don't have. And he can connect with patients on the in that way. And I think it's so important to have a diverse group of dentists to be able to Erin Sheffield: Mm-hmm. Sarah Harding: choose from because you're We don't all like the same person, you know. Erin Sheffield: No, and we don't all speak to that life experience or it's just easier to connect sometimes to someone who looks like you, talks like you, grew up in your same culture. I thought this was an interesting question I came across. What parts of professionalism protect patients and which parts merely preserve an old hierarchy? That's deep, right? Sarah Harding: This deep. Yeah. That's true. Erin Sheffield: I think that's I don't know. It's I don't even know if it's like a really a question to even answer out loud. Sarah Harding: I think it's rhetorical, right? Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Cause the first thing I thought of was professionalism like following sterilization guidelines. You know, that's gonna protect our patients, right? Yep. Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Like don't go digging around in the drawer to grab something with your dirty gloves on. That's professionalism and that's Sarah Harding: Right. Mm-hmm. Erin Sheffield: important. But whether you're choosing between the green, purple, or pink gloves, Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: is that professionalism or is that just personal preference? Who really cares? It's not affecting Sarah Harding: Right. Yeah. Erin Sheffield: the patient experience. Sarah Harding: Yeah. And then I'm gonna take this a little bit further. So pardon me while I do this. It's really great to have these national organizations. Okay. one thing that I talked about with a couple of the guys at our Baylor oral surgery trip was isn't it very interesting that people aren't wanting to go to Amos anymore? People aren't wanting to go to these national meetings anymore. because they don't feel like it's representative of our profession as a whole. And they do not feel that the organization is protecting us as participants of this profession. And so while I think it's really wonderful that they came out with this statement, I also think that they need to maybe take a step back and recognize the amount of things that they're allowing in our profession because it makes them money also. So Erin Sheffield: Mm-hmm. Sarah Harding: Is it professional to have all of these big dental groups running practices and being focused mostly on productivity and the bottom line and production and money generating? Or is it better to make sure that we are all patient-focused and patient-centered? And not worried about the profits that it's going to give back to our organization. Because that to me is professionalism, right? Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Sarah Harding: Not pushing treatments, not saying somebody needs a SRP because you're able to shove the probe down into a healthy twenty two year olds gingiva that brushes and flosses every day. you know, and Erin Sheffield: Yeah, I mean I keep seeing posts talk about, well, they gotta do the bone graph for the third molars because if you're only getting paid fifty dollars of extraction, you can't afford that. And my thought is like, Well, it's not the patient's fault that your their insurance isn't paying you adequately that now you have to make up treatments to add on. Sarah Harding: I mean it is kind of the patient's fault because they did choose that insurance. Erin Sheffield: Well, their employer chose that insurance, usually is what it is. But the Sarah Harding: Right. Yes. It's a bigger conversation. Erin Sheffield: choice is that probably shouldn't have chosen any insurance, unfortunately. But you know, that's not yeah, we have to make a living, but maybe opt out of the insurance company instead of Sarah Harding: Yes. Yeah. Erin Sheffield: making up fake fraudulent treatments. You know, g I guess I'm gonna say it very strongly, call it fraud if you're pushing treatments that aren't necessary. but yeah, it seems a little performative maybe. I mean I'm glad that they're holding a line and and Sarah Harding: Yeah, I agree. Erin Sheffield: being an example there, but if they're not doing the things on the back end to support the people they're making a stand for, then it it doesn't seem very aligned or authentic. Sarah Harding: Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think too the other thing that we were talking Erin Sheffield: Yeah, that's really interesting. I've also heard go ahead. Sarah Harding: about, at our trip was the fact that now there's a whole lot of different organizations that are doing meetings and you know, there's a lot of these different national organizations because people aren't feeling aligned with Amos Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Sarah Harding: and the way that they're lobbying or promoting our ability to practice or standing up for us. And all that it's doing is further subdividing our specialty when we really need to be united. And so I Erin Sheffield: Mm-hmm. Sarah Harding: think that it's a very interesting time to see that. And I hope that Amos is recognizing that that's happening and that their numbers are going down, that their attendance is going down, but looking at all of these other organizations starting to flourish because what what are we missing? I hope that they're looking at it that way, but who knows? Erin Sheffield: Yeah, I think there's I mean, I've seen f a few little minor things. Like I've seen them appoint people to committees about diversity and inclusion, et cetera. But I haven't really seen too many initiatives trickle down that I can see that are impacting me. And this is something that's been really important to me as a woman, is just feeling supported in our association. And I'm seeing so many other specialties that have been traditionally very male dominated. Something like general surgery, for example. And I'm seeing them put forth so many specific initiatives to try to support women more. They're trying to recruit women, they're trying to mentor women, they're having special conferences for the women, et cetera. And I would love to see more of that from our own association. And then on top of that, I would love to personally advocate more for other minorities. Racial minorities, religious minorities. people in the gay, lesbian, transgender communities, et cetera. But it feels like if we can't even support women more and Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: invite them in when we're like over fifty percent of the population, that seems like we're just not even anywhere close to being ready for those conversations. And I know the number of minorities, Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: particularly like black and Hispanic in our specialty or even in dentistry, remains very low. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Yeah, but it's really hard to go somewhere where you don't see anybody that looks like you. Right. I mean, even I went to South Carolina and I think we had two African Americans in my graduating class. Which is insane. you know, and I'm I don't know if it's I haven't looked lately to see if it's changed or gotten better. I don't know. but I think that that's that's a recruitment issue. That's something that again needs to come from higher up in the national organizations that is a priority, you know. And and and it's not to say that, you know, we need to because you know, they'll always come back and say, well, so you're saying we need to lower our standards? You're like No, have you looked around? You know, like they're these minorities are doing great in all other business ventures and we're just not capturing them because there's nobody here that is promoting them, that is accepting of them, that is, you know, mentoring them. And so how why would they? Why would they? Erin Sheffield: Well, we all have our own role to play. And I think if you're comparing apples to apples and you're used to the red delicious apple, then some of these like homegrown heirloom Sarah Harding: Right. Erin Sheffield: apples are gonna look maybe subpar, but when you take a bite, you're gonna be like, Wow, this is a great apple, and maybe some apples are good to have a picture and to take and put on your teacher's desk 'cause it looks red and beautiful and others are like kinda sour, but they're amazing for pie. Like we all have our own role to play and preference Sarah Harding: Right. Yeah. Erin Sheffield: and and I think that's what makes life beautiful is when we can embrace that instead of being like, Granny Smiths are too sour. Ew, who would ever like that? Sarah Harding: Who likes apples? They're gross. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Erin Sheffield: Ew, yeah. I'm a pear person. Yeah, exactly. So what do you think about this? Again, I haven't confirmed this, but I keep seeing rumors that this dentist who made the, I'll say inappropriate, rude comment, was maybe fired from his position and has been reported to the board. Do you think that that's appropriate consequence for something like this? Do you think that's taking it a little too far? Sarah Harding: I think it's taking it too far. I don't I don't know. I also don't really trust these things. A lot of times having been in the navy and seeing when people like do something that's a bad PR move and then they get removed, yeah, but then they Erin Sheffield: Sacked. Sarah Harding: get reassigned to something else that's still just like a It's just different. It's just to take them out of the spotlight and to say, like, we did something. I don't feel like that's I don't know. Cause it just doesn't it doesn't incentivize them to change. I mean, maybe it does. I don't know. but I just think that it's it's a more of a PR move than it is an actual remedy for the underlying behavior, I guess. because I think how do you how do you get somebody to understand if they were really that strong in their belief that they felt like they could write that online? And then then you sack them from their job. Do you think that they're gonna be resentful or do you think that they're gonna be understanding and change their ways? Erin Sheffield: Yeah, that's a really a good point. Maybe just make some double down on their hateful ways. Now Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: they're the victim and they have someone to blame even more. Sarah Harding: Exactly. Yeah. Erin Sheffield: Yeah, I don't know. I've been going back and forth because on one end I kind of feel like, gosh, everyone deserves to make a livelihood. But I think consequences are and accountability are good. And Sarah Harding: Right. Important. Yeah. Erin Sheffield: in this instance, if he loses patience, that's one thing. I also don't know that I want my practice to be associated with that. So firing him, yeah, maybe I would want to. I Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: don't know. I I also think people get away with this and they say horrible things frequently, continuously, oftentimes without Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: any accountability. So I appreciate seeing that, but I don't know. I feel I feel for someone maybe making one mistake. I mean, I think it kind of shows Maybe kinda who they are inside, maybe than just being one mistake, but yeah, that's that's that's amazing, you know, like a change your life. One ten second click on the Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: on your phone. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I think it depends on the person. I guess that's the best way to say that, right? Because it depends on how they internalize. And it's just I mean, we do the same thing with our kids, right? Like some kids they just hate to feel like they disappointed us. And other kids, they don't give a shit. And they're gonna Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Sarah Harding: like do it whatever it is that they're gonna do. And your punishment of being like I'm really disappointed in you, they're like, Goodbye, you know. And you know, so I think that it's Erin Sheffield: Yes. Sarah Harding: it should definitely be person dependent as opposed to just a broad brush stroke of a policy. So Erin Sheffield: Yeah, definitely. And what do you think about the doctor, how he handled it, like calling them out personally? I think some people would say that that was maybe unprofessional, that he should have gone to the person or handled it privately. Do you think how he handled that was appropriate for the situation? Sarah Harding: How did he handle that? Erin Sheffield: While he like made follow up videos, like look at this comment that this person said, instead of just, you know, DMing him or something. Sarah Harding: You know what? I actually think that When you have been marginalized and you don't feel that you can bring it up to the person or to a superior, I think a lot of times this is the reaction that you will have because it's truly the only way that you will get any traction. It's kind of like Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Sarah Harding: when, you know, you get something from a company and it's not what they said it was or it's wrong and then you email them and they don't email you back and then you try to call and they don't respond to your calls. And so you put a review on their website and immediately you get a call from them. And so it's like, you know, how do I get it through to you? I would love to take care of this at the lowest possible level, but clearly you don't respect me enough to even respond or acknowledge me. And so don't worry, I'll find a way to make sure that you can acknowledge this in a way that probably you don't want, because that just brings more visibility to your poor choice of words, you know. Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Sarah Harding: That's the way that I think of it because I mean we've all been there. You know what I mean? And so if you're a person that always gets if you put your foot down and people listen. Then you don't have to resort to that. But You and I've been in the situation where you can Put your foot down and they just still just walk all over you. And so then Erin Sheffield: Yeah. Sarah Harding: how do you bec but you know that this is wrong and you know that this needs visibility and you know that this needs to change. So I guess that's the only way. So that's my thoughts on it is I think that I probably would have done the same thing. Erin Sheffield: Yeah, it reminds me of I think I've told this story before on here, but there was this patient that was being really inappropriate and he had a jaw fracture and we needed to get him up to get him fixed, but he was causing a ruckus. And so they're Sheffield, go down and get this guy to come up for a surgery. And he was being really abusive, yelling and cussing at probably seven different women in the room, including me. And I kept telling him, you can't talk to the staff like this, and we need you to calm down so you can go up to the OR. And I wanted a co call a code, I think it was cold blue at the time, you know, like unruly patient for security, but they kept saying, No, Sheffield, thou just delay the surgery. Don't do that. Just let him just get him up here. And I finally had to call the chief down because I'm like, There there's nothing I can do. This guy is not listening to me. And then my chief came down and he was a man and he was not like a big scary guy or intimidating personality or anything. He was very mild mannered, average size guy. And within seconds the guy stopped yelling and stomping around and agreed to go up to the OR. And when I went back to the residence room, they said, Sheffield, why did you let that guy talk to you that way? And I was Just surprised they asked me that 'cause I wasn't letting him talk to me that way. He Sarah Harding: Right. Erin Sheffield: was choosing to talk to me that way. Sarah Harding: Now, what was I gonna do? Like slap him across the face? Right. Erin Sheffield: I didn't think I was letting him talk that way, but you know, these men are used to having a little bit more deference to them, a little more respect. And this clearly misogynistic guy didn't care at all who I was or what I had to say. And so it kind of feels that way on things like this, like, that was rude. I don't like how you talk to me. You know, that's kind of how it feels. And only when someone that they see on a level playing field with them that they respect and want to be seen with respect back, calls them out, then they're embarrassed, then they're sorry, then it's Sarah Harding: Yes. Erin Sheffield: worth, you know, modifying. And it makes you wonder if they Sarah Harding: Yes. Erin Sheffield: probably wouldn't have cared if they hadn't been called out. But the social shaming, I think, is powerful for that reason. But Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: they don't care what I think. And I think that's why it's so important for allies. To stand up and say things. So we always talk about when you go in the room to see a patient on rounds, and the patient keeps deferring to the intern and the woman's attending. Sarah Harding: Right. Erin Sheffield: We really appreciate when the male intern says, actually, Dr. Sheffield's attending and she's the one that's gonna do the surgery and answer your questions. But when the intern just keeps letting Sarah Harding: Yeah. Erin Sheffield: it ride, it doesn't fix or correct the situation at all. Sarah Harding: Yeah. Yeah. And then you can also see it from the intern's perspective as well, right? Because they're like, wow, I feel respected and I'm just the intern. And and like they're Erin Sheffield: Yes. Sarah Harding: just like excited to get that that feeling of respect as well. So I, you know, and I see it from both perspectives. And so I think having Erin Sheffield: Mm-hmm. Sarah Harding: a thick skin is of utmost importance in this profession, but there's certainly ways that we can stand up for one another to make sure that the profession stays strong and stays well represented, right? Erin Sheffield: Definitely. Definitely. Well, I think professionalism should never require someone to erase their culture, who they are, become less of themselves to be recognized. And I think it's really about how we treat people. To me, that's my measure of professionalism. Are we treating people in a respectful manner? To me, it comes down to respect. Sarah Harding: We've all got something to offer. Erin Sheffield: I agree. Sarah Harding: Right. All right. Well, thanks for joining us on a timely episode of the Resting Stitch Face Podcast. If you like this episode, please like, share, follow, and we'll see you next time. Bye. Erin Sheffield: Thanks again. Bye.