Latest / Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar / 4/13/26: Korea Flames Israel, Eric Swalwell Scandal, Norm Finkelstein On Iran War

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4/13/26: Korea Flames Israel, Eric Swalwell Scandal, Norm Finkelstein On Iran War · Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

0:00
Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.
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Speaker 3: news media and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints
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Speaker 3: dot com. Turning now to Korea and to the Asian economies.
0:36
Speaker 2: As I said at the end of.
0:38
Speaker 3: Our interview with Rory, something very interesting is happening in Asia,
0:41
Speaker 3: a full basically diplomatic break between Korea and Israel. Let's
0:45
Speaker 3: go and put this up here on the screen. Seemingly
0:48
Speaker 3: out of nowhere, the President of Korea quote tweeted a
0:52
Speaker 3: video which said IDF soldiers tortured a Palestinian kid and
0:57
Speaker 3: threw him off a roof. They call themselves the most
0:59
Speaker 3: moral army. The president again, literally out of nowhere just
1:03
Speaker 3: says I need to look into whether this is true
1:06
Speaker 3: and if so, what measures have been taken. The forced
1:10
Speaker 3: comfort women issue that we are raising is in no
1:12
Speaker 3: different than the Jewish massacre or wartime killing. So, for
1:16
Speaker 3: those who aren't aware, in Korean history, comfort women was
1:21
Speaker 3: a major issue and remains a major one for the
1:24
Speaker 3: Korean people from Japanese treatment of Korean women in effective
1:28
Speaker 3: like enslavement and sex slavery during the Second World War.
1:31
Speaker 3: It remains like one of the hottest issues between the
1:34
Speaker 3: two countries and has caused like major even diplomatic problems
1:38
Speaker 3: between them. But clearly they have a very raw wound
1:40
Speaker 3: from the Second World War and they're comparing the treatment
1:43
Speaker 3: and subjugation of Palestinians to how Israel is treating them now.
1:46
Speaker 3: The question though, is that this video is from twenty
1:49
Speaker 3: twenty four, So why now? I think we know why,
1:51
Speaker 3: because their economy has just been decimated and the President
1:55
Speaker 3: of South Korea is using again one of the most
1:59
Speaker 3: like sensitive issues in South Korean society to try to
2:02
Speaker 3: turn the people against Israel on this moral ground. Okay,
2:07
Speaker 3: so how does the Israeli Foreign ministry respond? Let's put
2:09
Speaker 3: this up here on the screen. The remarks by the
2:11
Speaker 3: President of Korea, including this trivialization of the massacre of
2:16
Speaker 3: Jews on the eve of a Holocaust, Remember, and state
2:18
Speaker 3: of in Israel, are unacceptable and warn't strong condemnation. President Lee,
2:23
Speaker 3: for some strange reason, chose to dig up a story
2:26
Speaker 3: from twenty twenty four and to cite a fake account
2:29
Speaker 3: that falsely represented it as a current event.
2:31
Speaker 1: This account, remember, they're not denying any of this. Okay,
2:33
Speaker 1: let's say exactly.
2:35
Speaker 3: This account is notorious for spreading anti Israeli disinformation and
2:38
Speaker 3: falsehood about Israel. The event discussed occurred during an operation
2:41
Speaker 3: against terrorists at a time when Israeli soldiers were facing
2:45
Speaker 3: direct and immediate the rest of their lives. The event
2:47
Speaker 3: was thoroughly investigated and addressed two years ago. Yet we
2:50
Speaker 3: have not heard a single word from the President about
2:52
Speaker 3: the terrorists who were at the center of this event,
2:54
Speaker 3: nor have we heard a word from the president regarding
2:57
Speaker 3: the recent Iranian and Hasbolah military attack against terror Are
3:01
Speaker 3: Israeli civilians, mister President, is always better to check before reposting.
3:07
Speaker 1: Okay, so again, note.
3:09
Speaker 2: Seems like a confirmation of the veracity of the.
3:11
Speaker 3: Videos, right, But this is the quest, why now, why now? Well, again,
3:16
Speaker 3: they're fed up. They can't do this to Trump yet
3:19
Speaker 3: they may get there if the blockade happens. But with Israel,
3:23
Speaker 3: who they see is one of the precipitators of this conflict,
3:25
Speaker 3: they're like, oh yeah, no, we're done with you and
3:27
Speaker 3: we're just gonna And this is a radical shift. They've
3:31
Speaker 3: had relations for many years. It hasn't necessarily always been
3:34
Speaker 3: on the best terms. But you know, at the end
3:35
Speaker 3: of the day, Krea they don't care that much about Israel.
3:37
Speaker 3: They're major US of the ally, so if a US
3:39
Speaker 3: wants them to cozy up Israel, so be it.
3:41
Speaker 1: It is what it is.
3:42
Speaker 3: But now their entire population, remember what you think, we're
3:45
Speaker 3: a phone addicted society. They're very similar. They're all on
3:48
Speaker 3: social media. They have TikTok and all these other things
3:50
Speaker 3: in South Korea, so they've been watching the same Palestinian video.
3:53
Speaker 1: So they've got the population.
3:55
Speaker 3: But then you have this war which has plunged them
3:57
Speaker 3: into economic crises and chaos. Remember, right before all of this,
4:02
Speaker 3: Korea was about to dispatch its own special envoy. Let's
4:06
Speaker 3: put D four up there on the screen, their own
4:09
Speaker 3: special envoy appointed by their foreign minister directly to Iran
4:14
Speaker 3: to have bilateral talks with Iran. And basically, I mean
4:17
Speaker 3: they didn't admit it, but I think they were just
4:19
Speaker 3: going to pay the toll to get all of their
4:20
Speaker 3: oil out of those straits.
4:21
Speaker 1: And horn moves.
4:22
Speaker 3: They didn't care at this point, their economy is so
4:24
Speaker 3: deeply reliant. Well, similarly, again, they're furious with Israel for
4:28
Speaker 3: their role in this war, and so they've actually ratcheted
4:31
Speaker 3: up this diplomatic incident. Let's put D three up there
4:35
Speaker 3: on the screen. This is in response to Israel's response.
4:38
Speaker 3: It's disappointing that you don't even once reflect on the
4:41
Speaker 3: criticisms from people around the world who are suffering and
4:45
Speaker 3: struggling due to your relentless anti human rights and anti
4:49
Speaker 3: international law actions. When I am in pain, others feel
4:52
Speaker 3: that pain just as deeply. It's only natural to feel
4:55
Speaker 3: sorry if someone else is suffering because of my needs.
4:58
Speaker 3: It makes me deeply uncomfortable to watch this immense pain
5:01
Speaker 3: and national hardship suddenly befallowing our innocent citizens out of
5:05
Speaker 3: the blue like a bolt from the blue, for the
5:07
Speaker 3: sake of universal human rights and the national interest of
5:10
Speaker 3: the Republic of Korea. I must work harder to find
5:13
Speaker 3: things I can do. Israel cannot tolerate President Lee's remark
5:16
Speaker 3: that wartime killing's equal Jewish massacre. I mean, this again
5:21
Speaker 3: is extraordinary stuff from the president of South Korea, a
5:25
Speaker 3: allied nation who is entire economy was thrown into full chaos.
5:30
Speaker 3: They were already exploring bilateral negotiations. But I think it
5:34
Speaker 3: shows a couple of things. The Palestinian issue is the
5:37
Speaker 3: one that they can easily reach for. They know that
5:39
Speaker 3: it's sympathetic for their population. They're linking their own history.
5:42
Speaker 3: And it's also a deeply not even not so subtle
5:45
Speaker 3: shot at the United States here it's like, we're not
5:47
Speaker 3: taking orders from you whenever it comes to our relationship
5:49
Speaker 3: here with Israel anymore, which I think is very fascinating
5:52
Speaker 3: to watch this.
5:52
Speaker 2: I think that's highly significant. There's two things here. Number one,
5:55
Speaker 2: I mean, it's worth noting that, of course, at the
5:57
Speaker 2: height of the Israeli genocide in Gaza, they had nothing
6:01
Speaker 2: to say. But obviously the entire population of the world
6:05
Speaker 2: effectively has turned against Israel because of what they have
6:08
Speaker 2: seen and the horror that was perpetrated there. So now
6:11
Speaker 2: that Israel has been directly involved in the Iran War,
6:14
Speaker 2: which is plunging the entire world into economic chaos, which
6:18
Speaker 2: is directly damaging dramatically the South Korean economy, now they
6:24
Speaker 2: can use the moral issue of what the way you
6:27
Speaker 2: treat Palestinians to also, you know, push back against Israel
6:31
Speaker 2: at a time when South Koreans are obviously severering. So
6:34
Speaker 2: there's that, and then the other piece is the US piece.
6:37
Speaker 2: The US has been shown to be relatively weak, weaker
6:40
Speaker 2: than expected. You know, we were humiliated in a lot
6:43
Speaker 2: of ways, and so you know, the threats from Trump
6:46
Speaker 2: and the fear of how he'll respond and that he'll
6:49
Speaker 2: have Israel's back, and you can't, you know, break from
6:51
Speaker 2: them because there are ally and you need to be
6:53
Speaker 2: on board with them no matter what they do. Those
6:55
Speaker 2: threats are not as potent, especially again at a time
6:58
Speaker 2: when you have a genuine like national crisis in South
7:01
Speaker 2: Korea because of the energy crunch. So it's both a
7:05
Speaker 2: sign of just how furious they are with Israel and
7:07
Speaker 2: also a sign of comparative weakness from the US.
7:10
Speaker 3: There's a couple of other elements to this too, So
7:13
Speaker 3: the golf countries remember South Korea, because they've been under
7:15
Speaker 3: threat here from the North Koreans. They have a very
7:17
Speaker 3: robust and actually very good defense industry, so a lot
7:20
Speaker 3: of their arms and munitions have been backfilling a lot
7:23
Speaker 3: of the gaps of the US. So what's happened is
7:25
Speaker 3: that a lot of these golf countries are just reading
7:27
Speaker 3: this yesterday, has been going out and buying a bunch
7:29
Speaker 3: of South Korean weapons, missile interceptors. They have a pretty robust,
7:33
Speaker 3: you know, their own system, which as I understand it,
7:35
Speaker 3: they're quite sophisticated, and they're much cheaper actually than many
7:38
Speaker 3: even US systems. So Israel, though maybe they were looking
7:41
Speaker 3: in the future to buy some South Korean weapons, I
7:43
Speaker 3: don't know if that's going to happen now. And you
7:45
Speaker 3: also see South Korea with a little bit of its
7:48
Speaker 3: own leverage. They're like, oh, you golf countries, you guys
7:50
Speaker 3: want our weapons. Well, maybe we're gonna have to cut
7:52
Speaker 3: some deals here on the side. All of this is
7:55
Speaker 3: just displacement of US supremacy role in the region this country.
7:59
Speaker 1: So I was just here.
8:00
Speaker 3: South Korea and Israel they signed a free trade agreement
8:03
Speaker 3: like six years ago, right, So These are not These
8:06
Speaker 3: are not nations with any real enmity. They have tech
8:09
Speaker 3: cooperation COVID. You know, I was looking for Gaza. They
8:13
Speaker 3: urged a ceasefire and humanitarians, but they were very balanced,
8:16
Speaker 3: like they didn't, you know, outward condemnation. This is by far,
8:19
Speaker 3: you know, one of the bigger incidents. Another thing when
8:22
Speaker 3: we keep our eye on Asia. I spotted this nationwide
8:25
Speaker 3: protests in Japan just a couple of days ago. This
8:29
Speaker 3: was on Wednesday. That were over one hundred locations, Over
8:32
Speaker 3: fifty thousand people actually took to the streets. It wasn't
8:37
Speaker 3: just about the Iran war, but some of it was.
8:39
Speaker 4: Let's take a listen protest just outside Japan's parliament and
8:42
Speaker 4: there are thousands.
8:43
Speaker 2: Of people here. It's really rare to see a protest
8:46
Speaker 2: of the size in Tokyo, that's in.
8:55
Speaker 5: State are protests were held across Japan and over one
9:00
Speaker 5: hundred locations.
9:01
Speaker 2: They were planned before Iran and the US agreed to
9:03
Speaker 2: a two week cease fire. Many showed up anyway, though,
9:06
Speaker 2: fearing of out last and that fighting could restart.
9:08
Speaker 6: But protesters here are also criticizing the Japanese Prime Minister.
9:11
Speaker 2: Of the III Ken calling on our Headjat.
9:15
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I think it's interesting. Like she said,
9:17
Speaker 1: it's pretty rare.
9:18
Speaker 3: This was not just about Iran, it was also about
9:20
Speaker 3: their own constitution. So look, every nation has domestic politics.
9:24
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to say that it's all about this,
9:25
Speaker 3: but they're signs of interesting things. And the Japanese Prime Minister,
9:29
Speaker 3: she's in a tough spot their government also, I mean,
9:32
Speaker 3: they had all these budget problems. I've been reading a
9:34
Speaker 3: little bit about the first budget that they had, you know,
9:37
Speaker 3: some eleven years, very similar to our congress. But they're
9:40
Speaker 3: having issues with that. But Iran remains a single problem.
9:43
Speaker 3: They had a call this morning. I was looking where
9:45
Speaker 3: you know, they're urging diplomacy and reopening of the streets
9:49
Speaker 3: of Hormuz. Remember seventy almost eighty percent of their oil,
9:52
Speaker 3: and South Korea very similarly. They also rely heavily on
9:56
Speaker 3: natural gas, and then they have the same problems whenever
9:58
Speaker 3: it comes to jet fuel. All of this, I think
10:01
Speaker 3: just demonstrates like the way that this war is breaking
10:04
Speaker 3: apart these alliances in Asia, and then it also opens
10:08
Speaker 3: the question about the naval blockade of the Straits of Warmus.
10:10
Speaker 1: Are we going to board Chinese vessels.
10:12
Speaker 3: And if you're China, I mean, look, China's singular goal
10:17
Speaker 3: with Japan and South Korea has been too separated from
10:20
Speaker 3: the United States. South Korea made its gamble during the
10:23
Speaker 3: THAD situation, where China threatened economic boycott and South Korea said,
10:28
Speaker 3: we got to sit here and we got to take
10:29
Speaker 3: the pain. We've got to keep these SAD missiles here
10:31
Speaker 3: are in battery and the radar, because at the end
10:33
Speaker 3: of the day, America's are garante of security. So even
10:35
Speaker 3: though we're going to take a ton of pain, we
10:37
Speaker 3: got to sit here and we got to take it
10:39
Speaker 3: because it's good for us in the long run.
10:40
Speaker 1: How we repaid them by destroying their economy.
10:43
Speaker 3: Same with Japan, I mean for them, they're like, look,
10:45
Speaker 3: we have this alliance, occupation and this painful history, but
10:48
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, like we have a
10:50
Speaker 3: deep consumer relationship, we're very very tight. China, their sole
10:53
Speaker 3: goal is to cleave off South Korea, Japan from the
10:56
Speaker 3: US and to actually have them basically have a reverse
10:58
Speaker 3: relationship where they're like, look, we're not going to attack you,
11:01
Speaker 3: but you know, you get access to our consumer market.
11:04
Speaker 3: So it looks like a more appealing pitch than it
11:06
Speaker 3: was in the past. Now, I'm not saying this is
11:07
Speaker 3: going to happen overnight, but all these policy makers they
11:11
Speaker 3: have to consider their own national interest, and right now
11:15
Speaker 3: we're not in their national interests. We're actively hurting their
11:18
Speaker 3: national interest and showing up in all of these different ways.
11:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Israel is like the you know, an incredible
11:23
Speaker 2: world villain, as are we increasingly at this point. And
11:27
Speaker 2: let's put D six up on the screen, you know,
11:29
Speaker 2: treat to Parsi was talking about from the Israeli perspective,
11:33
Speaker 2: what might happen or you know, the way that Trump
11:35
Speaker 2: may approach negotiations moving forward. NETANYAHUO we played for you
11:39
Speaker 2: last week, said the war's not over. They still are
11:41
Speaker 2: prepared to go back. They had this apparent coordinated leak
11:45
Speaker 2: to all three of the major Hebrew TV networks saying
11:50
Speaker 2: that they're gearing up for a renewed conflict with Iran.
11:53
Speaker 2: And so Trump is going to face, you know, a
11:55
Speaker 2: real question if he actually wants to end US direct
12:00
Speaker 2: involvement in a hot war with Iran, He's either going
12:04
Speaker 2: to have to constrain Israel or he's going to have
12:07
Speaker 2: to make it very clear, Israel, you are on your own.
12:10
Speaker 2: And if they're on their own, they're really pretty screwed.
12:13
Speaker 2: I mean, already, their interceptor stockpiles are down to double digits.
12:17
Speaker 2: They've been incredibly dependent on the US Navy to protect
12:20
Speaker 2: them as much as they have been protected, and obviously
12:22
Speaker 2: the Iranian ability to penetrate those defenses and do damage
12:27
Speaker 2: inside of Israel has increased the longer that the war
12:31
Speaker 2: has gone on. So on the one hand, Israel looks
12:34
Speaker 2: like it's very strong. You know, they've dominated Gaza, they're
12:37
Speaker 2: dominating the West Bank, they're taking over a part of Lebanon,
12:41
Speaker 2: although the has Belat resistance has been stronger than they thought.
12:44
Speaker 2: They finally got the US to do the war in
12:46
Speaker 2: Iran that they have long sought. But at the same time,
12:49
Speaker 2: the only reason, the only goodwill that they have in
12:52
Speaker 2: the world basically is among boomers in the US and
12:54
Speaker 2: the President of the United States. We are the only
12:57
Speaker 2: thing that stands between them and having to actually live
13:01
Speaker 2: within their means and act like a real state, live
13:04
Speaker 2: within their borders, and come to some sort of an
13:07
Speaker 2: agreement with their neighbors, or they won't exist anymore. So
13:11
Speaker 2: it's a very tenuous moment for Israel. There's a New
13:14
Speaker 2: York Times piece this morning that's talking about how Israelis
13:17
Speaker 2: are not feeling like this Iran war has gone very well.
13:20
Speaker 2: They're looking at this, They're like, we've been living in
13:22
Speaker 2: bomb shelters. You know, there's certainly we don't know exactly
13:25
Speaker 2: how much it's certainly been significant damage within the country
13:28
Speaker 2: of Israel, and what do we have to show for it.
13:31
Speaker 2: Iran is probably, you know, if anything, more likely to
13:33
Speaker 2: pursue a nuclear weapon there at missile stockpile remains intact.
13:37
Speaker 2: There's been some damage done to it, but nobody's under
13:39
Speaker 2: any illusion that they won't be able to you know,
13:41
Speaker 2: build back better, I suppose, And so they're asking themselves
13:45
Speaker 2: like what was this all for, which is why so
13:48
Speaker 2: much of the domestic pressure is going to be on
13:50
Speaker 2: net Nyahuo to go back to war, which is something
13:53
Speaker 2: he wants to do and very likely, you know, to
13:55
Speaker 2: drag us back in as he did before.
13:57
Speaker 3: I don't think it's I don't think it's you know,
13:59
Speaker 3: out of the question, and it's clear to I think
14:02
Speaker 3: for the rest of the world, like this just came across.
14:05
Speaker 3: Let's talk about it a little bit Prime Minister net
14:07
Speaker 3: Yahoo at a cabinet meeting. I spoke yesterday with Vice
14:10
Speaker 3: President of Vance. He called me from his plane. He
14:12
Speaker 3: reported to me in detail, as this administration does every day.
14:16
Speaker 3: So I noted, I go, net Yahoo is openly just
14:18
Speaker 3: being like the vice president of the administration report to
14:21
Speaker 3: me in detail every day. So you and I what
14:24
Speaker 3: are we focus in on to the guy who literally
14:26
Speaker 3: was raised near the city of Philadelphia. He speaks fluent English.
14:30
Speaker 3: I think he knows what report to me in detail
14:32
Speaker 3: every day means. So a bunch of these zion I've
14:34
Speaker 3: pointed this out. A bunch of these Zionists are like you, idiot,
14:36
Speaker 3: they're in a war. Of course they talk every day.
14:38
Speaker 3: I'm like, he didn't say talk, he said report to
14:41
Speaker 3: me in detail. What's the impression he gives this language
14:45
Speaker 3: openly to the world and to Israel to say I'm
14:49
Speaker 3: the dad, I'm in charge. He knows what he's doing.
14:52
Speaker 3: He didn't misspeak. He's I mean, look, let's give him credit.
14:56
Speaker 3: Like I think he chooses his words very carefully. He
14:59
Speaker 3: wants to humiliate the Vice president and the United.
15:02
Speaker 2: States political actor exactly. Give him that he.
15:04
Speaker 3: Knows exactly what he's doing whenever he uses this type
15:07
Speaker 3: of language to say and to say to his domestic audience,
15:10
Speaker 3: I'm still in charge. Oh and just so you're all aware,
15:14
Speaker 3: his corruption trial miraculously was pushed two more months because
15:18
Speaker 3: of because of security and national concerns. So that means
15:23
Speaker 3: we have two months before you have to restart the war.
15:26
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean that it can't come any earlier. But Korea, Japan, Australia,
15:31
Speaker 3: all the UK, France. I mean, it's not just we're
15:34
Speaker 3: doing this about Asia. Just this morning, both you know,
15:37
Speaker 3: the chief powers of NATO military powers Germany, Germany, France
15:40
Speaker 3: and the UK are all like, we have nothing to
15:42
Speaker 3: do with this, We want nothing to do with your blockade.
15:44
Speaker 3: This all needs to end right now. We are destroying
15:47
Speaker 3: all of our alliances. And it does appear as if
15:49
Speaker 3: we're doing it on behalf of Israel. They can wake
15:51
Speaker 3: up and they can read too, and they're like, this
15:53
Speaker 3: is bizarre, this is weird. Why are you doing this?
15:56
Speaker 3: So we're shredding it and it's not necessary. Right, I'll
15:58
Speaker 3: take Korea any day.
15:59
Speaker 2: Of the week, and let's put D eight up on
16:01
Speaker 2: the screen because this matters. Maybe not in terms of
16:04
Speaker 2: the political leaders, but in terms of global opinion, and
16:07
Speaker 2: as you said, should be about this infant child that
16:11
Speaker 2: was murdered by Israel in Lebanon while she was attending
16:17
Speaker 2: her father's funeral. And so you know, these are the
16:21
Speaker 2: sorts of horrific, gut wrenching headlines that continue to come
16:27
Speaker 2: out because of the insanely barbaric actions of Israel. So
16:32
Speaker 2: you are really dependent on these countries perceiving it to
16:36
Speaker 2: be in their national interest to back you, because you've
16:41
Speaker 2: lost the global public and we're not the only country
16:44
Speaker 2: where there are you know, people who have really hardened
16:47
Speaker 2: in their opinions against Israel where the political landscape is
16:50
Speaker 2: really shifting. We're the most important one because of how
16:52
Speaker 2: much support we provide them and of course as the
16:54
Speaker 2: you know, global former hegemon, but there are countries around
16:58
Speaker 2: the world we're sent has hardened against Israel and continue
17:02
Speaker 2: to see these horrific headlines come out. And so, you know,
17:05
Speaker 2: any political leader once they perceive it to be in
17:07
Speaker 2: their national interest to break from Israel, as South Korea,
17:10
Speaker 2: as you know, is perceiving that to be in their
17:13
Speaker 2: interest right now as they deal with the economic fallout
17:15
Speaker 2: of the Iran war. They're going to do that because
17:18
Speaker 2: the population is already there.
17:20
Speaker 1: Yep, that's right. All right, let's get to Swallwall, shall we.
17:25
Speaker 2: So we did want to get a little bit of
17:26
Speaker 2: domestic politics in here with regard to California Democrat Eric Swalwell,
17:32
Speaker 2: who has now officially suspended his campaign for governor of
17:36
Speaker 2: California in the wake of allegations of sexual abuse and harassment.
17:41
Speaker 2: Can put his Twitter statement here up on the screen.
17:44
Speaker 2: He says, in short, I am suspending my campaign for
17:47
Speaker 2: governor to my family, staff, friends and supporters. I am
17:50
Speaker 2: deeply sorry for mistakes in judgment I've made in my past.
17:54
Speaker 2: I will fight the serious false allegations that have been made.
17:59
Speaker 2: But that's my fi, not a campaigns now. I believe
18:03
Speaker 2: less than a week ago he was denying even any
18:06
Speaker 2: inappropriate behavior with staffers. This seems to be an acknowledgment
18:11
Speaker 2: at least of that, but continued denial of the criminal
18:15
Speaker 2: allegations that have been made against him. So let me
18:18
Speaker 2: go ahead and give you a little bit of the
18:20
Speaker 2: backstory here. So, as you guys probably know Eric Swalwell,
18:23
Speaker 2: he's a prominent member of the House Democratic Caucus, really
18:27
Speaker 2: has sort of come to prominence during the height of
18:29
Speaker 2: the Trump resistance. In Trump one point zero, he close
18:32
Speaker 2: ally of leadership, had a lot of endorsements from high
18:36
Speaker 2: profile Democratic leaders to support him in his race for
18:41
Speaker 2: governor in California. A bunch of other candidates in that
18:44
Speaker 2: race that's been kind of a mess. We haven't covered
18:45
Speaker 2: it too much, but they have this jungle primary situation
18:48
Speaker 2: because there were so many other Democrats in the race,
18:50
Speaker 2: there was a possibility that you ended up with two
18:52
Speaker 2: Republicans who were the highest vote getters who ended up
18:55
Speaker 2: going through to November. But Swalwell was one of the
18:58
Speaker 2: top Democratic content in that race before now suspending his campaign. Now,
19:03
Speaker 2: there have been rumors circulating on social media for a
19:06
Speaker 2: while that there was going to be some scandal that
19:09
Speaker 2: broke about him, and apparently there were a lot of
19:11
Speaker 2: rumors about him on Capitol Hill in general, rumors of
19:14
Speaker 2: the like he cheats on his wife routinely with young
19:17
Speaker 2: staffer type variety. Allegedly yes, although at that point it
19:22
Speaker 2: seems like he's basically acknowledged that anyway. What came out
19:25
Speaker 2: though in the past several days is actual allegations of rape,
19:30
Speaker 2: and we can let's go ahead and play a little
19:32
Speaker 2: bit of the woman who is making this particular allegation
19:35
Speaker 2: against Eric Swallwhile she was on CNN to tell her story.
19:39
Speaker 5: I decided to ask him to meet me for a drink.
19:42
Speaker 5: And I did this because I was so far removed
19:46
Speaker 5: from what had happened in twenty nineteen. I felt safe
19:51
Speaker 5: because I was established, I had a partner. I felt
19:57
Speaker 5: more secure that I could have a strictly professional relationship
20:02
Speaker 5: with this person. After that bar closed, we went to another.
20:05
Speaker 5: I went to the bathroom, and I don't remember anything
20:09
Speaker 5: after that. You don't remember anything.
20:11
Speaker 2: I remember the next day.
20:13
Speaker 5: I can see flashes of that evening, of him on
20:19
Speaker 5: top of me, me pushing him off, him grabbing me.
20:24
Speaker 7: It was.
20:26
Speaker 2: A lot more aggressive.
20:29
Speaker 1: It was aggressive.
20:30
Speaker 2: Did you say no? Yes?
20:32
Speaker 5: I said no. I in my flash that I can recall,
20:38
Speaker 5: I was pushing him off of me, saying no. And
20:41
Speaker 5: what did he do? He didn't stop, He didn't stop,
20:45
Speaker 5: And you woke up the next morning. I woke up
20:48
Speaker 5: the next morning naked alone in his hotel room. I
20:54
Speaker 5: for a moment didn't even know I was in his
20:57
Speaker 5: hotel room. That's how intoxic he I was. And I
21:03
Speaker 5: called my mom, the only person I could think that
21:06
Speaker 5: could help me.
21:07
Speaker 2: And so she alleges that something similar unfolded twice, once
21:11
Speaker 2: when she was on his campaign or campaign or official
21:15
Speaker 2: staff twenty four years old, and then once several years
21:18
Speaker 2: later in the incident that you heard her describing. There
21:20
Speaker 2: there's another woman who's come for and can put this
21:22
Speaker 2: E four CNN tear sheet up on the screen, who
21:25
Speaker 2: describes a similar scenario of drinking with him, becoming you know,
21:31
Speaker 2: so intoxicated apparently that she doesn't remember anything, and again
21:35
Speaker 2: wakes up in his hotel room. There are several There
21:39
Speaker 2: are two other women who came forward with allegations where
21:42
Speaker 2: you know, it started off as some sort of professional contact.
21:46
Speaker 2: Very soon it's hey, let me have your snapchat. Next thing,
21:49
Speaker 2: you know, he's sending unsolicited pictures of his gentil. Yet,
21:53
Speaker 2: so that is the sort of thing that is detailed
21:55
Speaker 2: in the CNN report. And also if we put E
21:57
Speaker 2: three up on the screen, I just want to give
21:59
Speaker 2: a shout out to the San Francisco Chronicle who were
22:01
Speaker 2: the first, too first to document the allegations of this
22:07
Speaker 2: ex staff or that you saw in the CNN interview.
22:10
Speaker 2: And people should read this entire report, but there's significant
22:14
Speaker 2: contemporaneous documentation, including text messages that she sent to other people,
22:19
Speaker 2: including tests that she went in. She got tested for
22:22
Speaker 2: pregnancy and STDs after this alleged incident. So it's fairly
22:27
Speaker 2: damning in terms of the level of evidence that you
22:30
Speaker 2: have for these claims.
22:31
Speaker 3: Right swallwell denying it, saying the allegations are false and
22:34
Speaker 3: he will fight them.
22:35
Speaker 1: Let's take a listen.
22:36
Speaker 4: A lot has been said about me today through anonymous allegations.
22:39
Speaker 4: I thought it was important that you see and hear
22:42
Speaker 4: from me directly. These allegations of sexual assault are flat false.
22:47
Speaker 4: They're absolutely false. They did not happen, they have never happened,
22:51
Speaker 4: and I will fight them with everything that I have.
22:55
Speaker 4: They also come on the eve of an election where
22:58
Speaker 4: I've been the frontlinner candidate for governor in California. I
23:01
Speaker 4: do not suggest to you in any way that I'm
23:03
Speaker 4: perfect or that I'm a saint. I have certainly made
23:07
Speaker 4: mistakes in judgment in my past, but those mistakes are
23:10
Speaker 4: between me and my wife, and to her, I apologize
23:13
Speaker 4: deeply for putting her in this position. I also apologize
23:18
Speaker 4: to you if in any way you've doubted your support
23:20
Speaker 4: for me, but I think you know who I am.
23:24
Speaker 4: For over twenty years, I have served the public as
23:27
Speaker 4: a city councilman, as a member of Congress, and as
23:31
Speaker 4: a prosecutor who went to court on behalf of victims,
23:34
Speaker 4: particularly on behalf of sexual assault victims.
23:38
Speaker 7: That's who I.
23:39
Speaker 4: Am and have always been. This weekend, I'm going to
23:44
Speaker 4: spend time with my family and friends, and I appreciate
23:47
Speaker 4: those who have reached out to me to show support,
23:50
Speaker 4: and I look forward to updating you very soon.
23:53
Speaker 3: Well, he did update us, ended his campaign, so that's
23:55
Speaker 3: where things stand as of right now. I mean, the
23:57
Speaker 3: big kind of interesting question around us is what you flagged.
24:00
Speaker 3: Let's put E five up there on the screen. It
24:04
Speaker 3: actually threatens this cascade of House expulsion votes. So I
24:08
Speaker 3: had no idea that he and for at least three
24:12
Speaker 3: of his House colleagues. So while Soa was a Democrat,
24:15
Speaker 3: that there's others who are on the chopping block or
24:17
Speaker 3: Republicans Crystal, and this could actually affect the overall majority
24:20
Speaker 3: and make it even tighter for Mike Johnson.
24:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you had Anna Paulina Luna cut wasn't fine
24:25
Speaker 2: expelling from the house, I mean disgusting behavior, and I've
24:28
Speaker 2: come to shift. This is a longer conversation for a
24:30
Speaker 2: different day. But the Limbs had a point when they
24:33
Speaker 2: said moral character does matter. I've come to agree with that.
24:37
Speaker 2: Now where the line is, etc. Is a different story.
24:39
Speaker 2: But if you are allegedly raping a woman who's like
24:42
Speaker 2: passed down, drump, yeah, I think it's time for you
24:45
Speaker 2: to go go and deal, talk to your wife, be
24:48
Speaker 2: with your kids, figure out what hell hell is going
24:50
Speaker 2: on with your life right now. In any case, he
24:53
Speaker 2: is not the only disgusting creeden in Congress. So Dumcrawds
24:56
Speaker 2: are like, okay, let's expouse Swalwell. But we're also going
24:59
Speaker 2: to talk about what's his name, Tony Gonzalez, who admitted
25:02
Speaker 2: to an affair with this DAFN. You see these text
25:04
Speaker 2: message where he's pressuring her to send him nudes, pressuring, pressuring,
25:07
Speaker 2: then she later dies by suicide after the affairs revealed.
25:12
Speaker 2: There's another one cheerfulest I've been not even familiar with
25:15
Speaker 2: this person or the allegations. McCormick was found guilty by
25:18
Speaker 2: the Ethics Committee on a litany of charges. Notably, she
25:20
Speaker 2: funneled five million dollars in COVID relief funds your congressional campaign.
25:24
Speaker 2: She's denied wrongdoing, but the Ethics Committee found her guilty.
25:27
Speaker 2: There you have another one, Mills under investigation by the
25:31
Speaker 2: Ethics Committee on a array of allegations including financial misconduct,
25:34
Speaker 2: campaign finance violations, and sexual misconduct, all of which he
25:37
Speaker 2: denies that when the detail is also extremely sortid. I
25:41
Speaker 2: think that's the dude Ryan was on Piers Morgan with
25:43
Speaker 2: and was like challenging him. He's like an sense contract
25:45
Speaker 2: or two. So so yeah, you could have a series
25:49
Speaker 2: of votes on potential expulsions from the House, So we'll
25:52
Speaker 2: see where that goes. It's also possible that swallwell, the
25:55
Speaker 2: heat and the pressure becomes so great that he just
25:57
Speaker 2: decides to resign his congressional scene here in the near
26:00
Speaker 2: term as well, because he's effectively his staff have come
26:03
Speaker 2: out against him. All of his previous endorsers, including labor unions,
26:07
Speaker 2: including you know, Rubin Gago, who had previously said he
26:10
Speaker 2: was his best friends.
26:12
Speaker 3: Some questions there, Well, I'm just saying there's weird pictures
26:15
Speaker 3: of the two of them on the backs of camels
26:17
Speaker 3: that are shirtless.
26:17
Speaker 2: Yeah.
26:18
Speaker 3: Anyway, so Gago's got just saying, all right, there's some
26:21
Speaker 3: some Google searching exactly about the stances surrounding his The
26:25
Speaker 3: only thing I want to say, Crystal is it wasn't
26:27
Speaker 3: just liberals. He used to talk about moral character. We
26:29
Speaker 3: all threw it out. So I will join you in
26:31
Speaker 3: setting some moral standards. But some of the liberals may
26:34
Speaker 3: not like how far we're going to take it. So
26:36
Speaker 3: maybe we should bring back some very some interesting moral
26:39
Speaker 3: codes and other things in our laws and qualification for
26:42
Speaker 3: public office. There's nobody who would love it who is
26:44
Speaker 3: more than me, and it will include a drug test
26:46
Speaker 3: for a certain THHC. All right, let's go on. We've
26:50
Speaker 3: got Norm Finkelstein standing by I. Unfortunately I have an
26:54
Speaker 3: appointment later on so and uh, Norm to be totally.
26:58
Speaker 1: Respectful all this time.
26:59
Speaker 3: Chrystal's going to do it about I'll be on tomorrow
27:01
Speaker 3: with Emily, so tomorrow and Wednesday and then what you
27:05
Speaker 3: and I on Thursday. So that's a schedule as of
27:07
Speaker 3: right now. All right, let's go and kick it to Norma.
27:09
Speaker 3: I want to keep him waiting.
27:12
Speaker 2: Joining us now for his analysis of how we ended
27:15
Speaker 2: up in the war with Iran. Is Norman Finkelstein. He
27:18
Speaker 2: is an activist, he's an academic, and he is an
27:20
Speaker 2: author of many books, including the forthcoming book Gaza Gravediggers.
27:25
Speaker 2: Great to see you, Norman.
27:26
Speaker 7: Thank you for having me.
27:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. So first off the top, you know,
27:30
Speaker 2: what is your sense of where we are in this war?
27:32
Speaker 2: We had these purported negotiations. They seem to have fallen apart,
27:36
Speaker 2: although neither side has completely closed the door to further talk.
27:39
Speaker 2: So what do you think is going on here?
27:41
Speaker 7: I don't claim any special knowledge in this area. I
27:45
Speaker 7: can only speak as a generally knowledgeable lame person. I
27:50
Speaker 7: think that President Shrump has three burdens. At this point.
27:56
Speaker 7: The war began with the overwhelming majority or the American
28:01
Speaker 7: people believing it was an unnecessary war. That then a
28:08
Speaker 7: second factor came into play. It proved to be an
28:13
Speaker 7: economically onerous war, an expensive war for the American people.
28:20
Speaker 7: And then number three, which became clear last week, it
28:25
Speaker 7: was an unwinnable war. Even threatening the annihilation of Iranian
28:34
Speaker 7: civilization didn't get the Iranians to budge on their basic issues.
28:42
Speaker 7: So with those three factors unnecessary, unwinnable, and progressively incrementally
28:53
Speaker 7: more expensive, it doesn't seem that Trump. In my opinion,
28:59
Speaker 7: and I've heard other opinions from people whom I respect,
29:03
Speaker 7: but I don't believe he can start up the war
29:05
Speaker 7: again at the magnitude that it was before. That there
29:11
Speaker 7: may be local so to speak, and probably it's the
29:14
Speaker 7: wrong word, but local skirmishes, yes, and that they may
29:19
Speaker 7: go on for a protracted period of time, yes, But
29:23
Speaker 7: even there with the caveat that unless the straits of
29:28
Speaker 7: horm Moves are opened, the economic burdens will just progressively increase.
29:35
Speaker 7: So I don't believe contrary as I said to listening
29:40
Speaker 7: to other commentators, I don't think war is an option
29:44
Speaker 7: for President Trump at this point. As to where it
29:49
Speaker 7: will go, I can't say, but war is not an option.
29:55
Speaker 7: I would also want to add to that the what
29:59
Speaker 7: you might quote idiosyncratic or eccentric, eccent eccentric aspect, which
30:07
Speaker 7: is President Trump has no mental discipline. He doesn't have
30:13
Speaker 7: physical stamina to focus on one issue, mental or physical
30:19
Speaker 7: stamina to focus on any one global issue at a time.
30:25
Speaker 7: He moves on, he moves from one crisis to another.
30:31
Speaker 7: He's basically what you might describe as a human wrecking bull.
30:39
Speaker 7: He's an agent of chaos, and he thrives on the chaos.
30:46
Speaker 7: But you can't. I think he's learned that you can't
30:52
Speaker 7: win this time by just heaving the wrecking ball and
31:00
Speaker 7: then moving on. That's not going to happen. He already
31:05
Speaker 7: had one takedown with Greenland. He had another takedown which
31:11
Speaker 7: I think important lessons can be learned from, but unfortunately
31:15
Speaker 7: it's left us behind. He had another takedown in Minnesota,
31:21
Speaker 7: and this is a takedown. Obviously it falls in the
31:24
Speaker 7: same trajectory, but it's a takedown of a much higher magnitude.
31:30
Speaker 2: So let me let me ask you. Then let's take
31:33
Speaker 2: your analysis and say, Okay, Trump is not going to
31:35
Speaker 2: go back to full war because he's realized this is
31:39
Speaker 2: just complete and utter disaster for him. There's no winning it.
31:42
Speaker 2: Where does that then leave Israel? What does their calculation
31:46
Speaker 2: look like? From that?
31:48
Speaker 7: There are two, you could say, two schools of thought
31:52
Speaker 7: on that. One school of thought is that Israel will
31:59
Speaker 7: playiler that it will do everything it can to provoke.
32:05
Speaker 7: You know, there could be false flag operations by Israel.
32:09
Speaker 7: You can't put it past them. So it will do
32:13
Speaker 7: everything in its power to force Trump to react on
32:18
Speaker 7: a on a catastrophic level. So there's the possibility of
32:28
Speaker 7: a overt or covert more likely covert provocation or sequence
32:36
Speaker 7: of provocations by Israel. The second school of thought is
32:42
Speaker 7: when Trump decides to say no, it's no. We already
32:46
Speaker 7: know that's possible because you may remember way back when
32:53
Speaker 7: for various reasons. Some say is because he wanted to
32:58
Speaker 7: win the Nobel Peace Prize. Others said that, in my opinion,
33:06
Speaker 7: he wanted to negotiate a deal with Saudi Arabia. But
33:11
Speaker 7: we know he said Gaza, at least in its overt
33:16
Speaker 7: most barbaric manifestation, they had to stop.
33:23
Speaker 2: Now.
33:23
Speaker 7: It obviously didn't stop, and you could say, now it's
33:27
Speaker 7: a slow motion genocide, but it was something changed, and
33:33
Speaker 7: it was against neta Yahoo's will. Trump just picked up
33:37
Speaker 7: the phone and said it's over. And as I say,
33:41
Speaker 7: in its most barbaric manifestation, it was over. So the
33:46
Speaker 7: other school is that Trump will simply pick up the
33:50
Speaker 7: phone and tell mister Netanyahu time to end it. And
33:56
Speaker 7: there were already indications of that. I don't claim to
34:02
Speaker 7: be a profit a soothsayer, but I said a few
34:07
Speaker 7: days ago that I think Trump is going to give
34:11
Speaker 7: Nettinahowe maybe forty eight hours to carry out his blood,
34:16
Speaker 7: to execute his blood or give vent to his bloodlust
34:21
Speaker 7: bloodlust and then tell him shows over. And I guess
34:28
Speaker 7: the day after I said that, there were reports of
34:32
Speaker 7: Trump saying, you have to dial back what you're doing
34:35
Speaker 7: in Lebanon. So I think those are the two possibilities.
34:43
Speaker 7: But I don't believe in the third possibility. The third
34:46
Speaker 7: possibility is Israel is out of control and the US
34:52
Speaker 7: can't do anything. That I find completely it's not just
34:58
Speaker 7: far fetched, but it's so at uh, it's so in
35:04
Speaker 7: conflict with what the facts on the grounds, so to speak,
35:08
Speaker 7: show Israel doesn't have that kind of independence. That's just
35:13
Speaker 7: completely my opinion, it's completely ridiculous. All Trump has to
35:18
Speaker 7: say is do as you want, but count me out.
35:21
Speaker 7: Mm and the show was over. Could you imagine if
35:25
Speaker 7: just Trump said, well, you do what you want, but
35:29
Speaker 7: at the Security Council, we're not going to veto a
35:31
Speaker 7: resolution if it comes up to call on you to
35:36
Speaker 7: stop and let it not.
35:38
Speaker 2: We're not going to veto yeah, or even we're not
35:41
Speaker 2: going to use our ships to help intercept the Iranian
35:45
Speaker 2: missiles that will target you because they're reportedly down to
35:48
Speaker 2: you know, double digits in terms of their own interceptors
35:51
Speaker 2: and very dependent on us for protection at this point.
35:54
Speaker 2: Let me get your reaction to some of the analysis
35:57
Speaker 2: of Tucker Carlson, who has been you know, very of
36:00
Speaker 2: Trump and very much in the camp of Israel. Will
36:03
Speaker 2: undermine and that Trump will go along because in his
36:07
Speaker 2: words in this club, he says Trump is a quote
36:10
Speaker 2: slave to Israel and might be getting blackmailed by net
36:13
Speaker 2: and Yahoo. Let's go ahead and take a listen to
36:15
Speaker 2: a little bit.
36:15
Speaker 6: Of that is very easy to understand. And you would
36:18
Speaker 6: have to be either not very bright or under immense
36:23
Speaker 6: pressure from another country in order to start a war
36:25
Speaker 6: like this, and the latter is true. We did this
36:28
Speaker 6: because of pressure from Israel. Now, how exactly did they
36:30
Speaker 6: exert that pressure, that's not entirely clear, but we're going
36:34
Speaker 6: to have to find out. I think we've an obligation
36:35
Speaker 6: to find out, because we can't be a sovereign country
36:38
Speaker 6: under these circumstances, and we're not a sovereign country at
36:40
Speaker 6: this point.
36:42
Speaker 2: And obviously Donald Trump would push right back on that.
36:44
Speaker 2: You have been until now really a huge supporter of
36:48
Speaker 2: his You wanted him elected obviously for a second term.
36:50
Speaker 2: Have you completely fallen out with him over this wall.
36:53
Speaker 6: Then I haven't fallen out with him. I mean I've
36:56
Speaker 6: known him for decades. I've always liked him, and I
36:59
Speaker 6: think anyone who's spent time with him likes him. I
37:01
Speaker 6: feel sorry for him, as I do for all slaves.
37:04
Speaker 6: He is not free in this moment at all to
37:08
Speaker 6: do what he thinks is best for himself for his country.
37:10
Speaker 6: To me, no, he's well, he's not free. And we
37:13
Speaker 6: learned that yesterday when Donald Trump announced to ceasefire clearly
37:18
Speaker 6: with relief and made its terms or most of its
37:22
Speaker 6: terms public, and then that ceasefire ended within two hours
37:25
Speaker 6: because Israel intentionally violated the terms by attacking not just
37:30
Speaker 6: southern Lebanon but the city of Beirut.
37:32
Speaker 1: So to Ben Nahu, so, I don't think it's as.
37:39
Speaker 6: Simple as he's under the control of nen Yahoo. But
37:43
Speaker 6: you know, you could summarize it that way and you
37:45
Speaker 6: wouldn't be totally inaccurate. And again we know this because
37:48
Speaker 6: the single biggest mistake Trump or any American president of
37:52
Speaker 6: my lifetime has made was going to war with Iran
37:56
Speaker 6: in an effort to change its regime. It didn't work.
37:58
Speaker 6: It was obviously mistaken. Me he understood. Trump understood it
38:02
Speaker 6: was a mistake immediately, and he tried to get out
38:04
Speaker 6: of it this week and announced we were getting out
38:07
Speaker 6: of it, and the Israelis prevented us from getting out
38:09
Speaker 6: of it. So that's the that's the clearest possible example, right,
38:13
Speaker 6: And you didn't then you were in charge.
38:15
Speaker 2: So let me get your reaction to that, and a
38:17
Speaker 2: couple of key points. He says, effectively, Trump is a
38:19
Speaker 2: slave to Israel, that we are no longer a sovereign nation,
38:23
Speaker 2: and suggests Trump may be blackmailed by Israel as well.
38:26
Speaker 7: What's the evidence. I feel like we're back to the
38:31
Speaker 7: famous line by Donald Rumsfeld during the Iraq War, or
38:39
Speaker 7: the build up to the Iraq War. There are known knowns,
38:45
Speaker 7: there are known unknowns, and there are unknown unknowns. And
38:52
Speaker 7: I feel we're here back to the same kind of argument.
38:57
Speaker 7: Mister Carlson makes a rap a large claim that the
39:02
Speaker 7: president of the most powerful country economically and militarily, the
39:11
Speaker 7: president of the of the United States, is a slave
39:17
Speaker 7: of a country the size of New Jersey, where a
39:21
Speaker 7: population a ten million, whatever it is now, and that
39:25
Speaker 7: whether or not you include the Palestinians in the occupied territories.
39:30
Speaker 7: Well that's a very large claim on its face. So
39:34
Speaker 7: now what's the evidence. There are two pieces of evidence
39:39
Speaker 7: as I see it, that is going to say, Professor
39:42
Speaker 7: that Tucker Callson presents that he adduces. One piece of
39:47
Speaker 7: evidence is that Israel might be blackmailing him. Yes, it's true,
39:52
Speaker 7: they might be black mailing him, and they might not
39:56
Speaker 7: be blackmailing him because we have no idea. There's no
40:01
Speaker 7: evidence now, so we can discard that, not that it's
40:06
Speaker 7: necessarily false, but there's no basis for it. So then
40:12
Speaker 7: that leaves us with a second argument that the war
40:16
Speaker 7: was that President Trump is not an idiot. There, I
40:20
Speaker 7: think you would need evidence to support that claim, but
40:23
Speaker 7: let's leave that aside. That President Trump is not an idiot,
40:28
Speaker 7: So he had to have seen that this war was
40:31
Speaker 7: going to be a disaster. Because he's not an idiot,
40:35
Speaker 7: and he had to have seen the war was going
40:38
Speaker 7: to be a disaster, then he must have been acting
40:44
Speaker 7: at Israel's behest Israel's win. So let's examine those three propositions.
40:51
Speaker 7: Number one, he's not an idiot, Well, I won't say
40:54
Speaker 7: he's a complete idiot, but certainly in a large number
40:57
Speaker 7: of areas where he rendered his opinions, he is an imbecile.
41:04
Speaker 7: Maybe it came to whether or not he should purchase
41:07
Speaker 7: a new building in my neighborhood, his advice would be
41:10
Speaker 7: quite useful. But by the way his father started in
41:15
Speaker 7: my neighborhood, Fred Trump, the Trump buildings are still up
41:19
Speaker 7: in my neighborhood on the island. He was a dearbous racist.
41:23
Speaker 7: Woody Guthrie, the folk singer, actually well the song about
41:26
Speaker 7: Fred Trump, but we'll keep that aside. So if you
41:32
Speaker 7: if you want real estate advice, I suppose his would
41:34
Speaker 7: be as good as anybody else's on the matter. But
41:37
Speaker 7: there are a broad number of areas where we can
41:39
Speaker 7: say he's completely and happily, you know, ignorant. Ignorance is bliss,
41:45
Speaker 7: and he's wistfully ignorant. Proposition number two, Let's assume he
41:52
Speaker 7: was very bright. For argument's sake, let's assume he was
41:56
Speaker 7: very bright. Hey, you want to know what, Donald Rumsfeld
42:03
Speaker 7: and Dick Cheney were very bright, very smart, top of
42:08
Speaker 7: the line, rich in government experience. When they entered the
42:14
Speaker 7: Bush administration, they had already been involved in government for
42:18
Speaker 7: about since the Nixon administration. So they had been involved
42:23
Speaker 7: already for about thirty years in government. Their knew government
42:27
Speaker 7: upside down. And beyond that, and already that's a very
42:34
Speaker 7: robust fact. Beyond that, they had staff their whole National
42:41
Speaker 7: security establishment with very smart guys Douglas Fife, Paul Wolfowitz,
42:48
Speaker 7: Scooter Libby, Richard Pearl. Top of the line. I'm not
42:53
Speaker 7: saying I like them, but credit given were credit due.
42:58
Speaker 7: I've said that many times. We shouldn't underestimate our enemies.
43:04
Speaker 7: You're very smart. Now here's the thing. Why am I
43:07
Speaker 7: mentioning it? If you go back and read the record,
43:12
Speaker 7: they all thought Iraq would be a cakewalk. That's the
43:16
Speaker 7: expression that used. They all thought. As you remember, within
43:21
Speaker 7: weeks or months, President Bush was standing in an aircraft
43:27
Speaker 7: carrier with the words emblazoned on back mission accomplished. So
43:33
Speaker 7: guess what very smart people of whom I would not
43:38
Speaker 7: include Trump. But even if I did, very smart people
43:44
Speaker 7: can get it wrong. They got it wrong. Linton Johnson,
43:50
Speaker 7: I'm old enough to remember the war in Vietnam. Every
43:55
Speaker 7: few months he would say, I see light at the
43:58
Speaker 7: end of the tunnel. That was famous line, I see
44:01
Speaker 7: light at the end of the tunnel. Now, Johnson was
44:04
Speaker 7: a very in politics politics, a very shrewd guy. His administration,
44:12
Speaker 7: you know what they called his administration. They were called
44:16
Speaker 7: the best and the brightest, and they really were. They
44:21
Speaker 7: were what you call or called back then, the whiz kids,
44:26
Speaker 7: people like Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara. They were the
44:32
Speaker 7: type who got sixteen hundred on their SATs and who
44:38
Speaker 7: went to the top schools and had extremely high levels
44:42
Speaker 7: of competence and conscientiousness. They got it wrong about Vietnam.
44:50
Speaker 7: So even if you are very smart, which Trump is not,
44:57
Speaker 7: but even if you are, you can get it wrong.
45:02
Speaker 7: And we have for those who care to remember, And
45:05
Speaker 7: it's not that long ago, though I have to acknowledge
45:09
Speaker 7: time has passed. It is twenty three years ago. I
45:12
Speaker 7: remember the day the war was declared. I was at
45:14
Speaker 7: the demonstration. It was in March and it was very cold.
45:18
Speaker 7: That was in Chicago. Then they got it wrong. Now,
45:26
Speaker 7: Tucker calls since says there's only one explanation Israel. I
45:31
Speaker 7: think there's a very simple I don't want to say simple,
45:35
Speaker 7: but I think there's a very plausible, alternative education alternative explanation.
45:42
Speaker 7: Everybody knows that Trump has an oversized ego. Everybody knows
45:50
Speaker 7: Trump enjoys the patcheantry of the office. Everybody knows that
45:56
Speaker 7: Trump doesn't very much care about the issues in and
45:59
Speaker 7: of themselves. He likes to flex his muscle. He likes
46:05
Speaker 7: to stride the globe like a giant. And at that point,
46:16
Speaker 7: after the successes he scored in Gazo, so much of
46:21
Speaker 7: a success that he thought he would be awarded the
46:23
Speaker 7: Nobel Peace Prize for it. I should say apparent success
46:28
Speaker 7: because the genoside, as I said, it is a slow
46:31
Speaker 7: motion genocide, but it continues. And then what you might call,
46:37
Speaker 7: using biblical language, the immaculate coup in Venezuela. And then
46:48
Speaker 7: into that situation, there was a informational void around the
46:57
Speaker 7: president because he knew all of his appointees were sub
47:04
Speaker 7: mediocre yes men. In fact, that's why he appointed them,
47:08
Speaker 7: because they were sub mediocre yes men. He wanted people
47:13
Speaker 7: who could never make him look, you know, pale by
47:20
Speaker 7: side of them. I actually think he was not happy
47:23
Speaker 7: with those pictures of jd. Vance walking erect up the
47:28
Speaker 7: staircase because he's, oh, he's trying to out shiney. I mean,
47:32
Speaker 7: that's how Trump thinks he's a child. He's a child.
47:37
Speaker 7: Uh so there was an informational void because he was
47:45
Speaker 7: surrounded not with as Lyndon Johnson, the best and the brightest,
47:52
Speaker 7: not as with George Bush, Junior, Cheney arms Felled and
48:01
Speaker 7: the lustrous neo conservatives, very smart guys, very smart guys.
48:09
Speaker 7: He was surrounded with Jared Kushner, Steve Woodkoff, Pete. Hegseeth,
48:20
Speaker 7: you know, big heads. Hegseeth. He has more oil running
48:27
Speaker 7: through the strands of his hair than oil passing through
48:32
Speaker 7: the straits of Hormuz on any one week. These are
48:39
Speaker 7: preposterous figures, preposterous figures in so intentionally so and so arrogant.
48:51
Speaker 7: You know, Jared Cushionaire stands there erect in his ralph
48:56
Speaker 7: Loreene suit as if he's tally rand, as if he's netternick.
49:04
Speaker 7: I mean, this guy, this guy gives affirmative action a
49:10
Speaker 7: bad name. No really, he gives affirmative action a bad name.
49:13
Speaker 7: But it doesn't have a bad name name enough. He
49:20
Speaker 7: gives it the worst name. Every step in his life
49:22
Speaker 7: has just been bought by his father. I mean, his
49:25
Speaker 7: father was such a crook. No, you really, this is
49:29
Speaker 7: extraordinary fact. His father was Jewish obviously, and a billionaire
49:36
Speaker 7: much richer than Trump. By the way, they were both
49:38
Speaker 7: real estate developers, much richer than Trump, and Chris Christie
49:46
Speaker 7: got him convicted and thrown into jail. Now you have
49:50
Speaker 7: to be a crook's crook to be Jewish, a Jewish
49:55
Speaker 7: billionaire in New Jersey and get thrown into jail. Did
50:00
Speaker 7: Jared get into Harvard? I suppose you know. But for
50:05
Speaker 7: the sake of your listeners, he got into Harvard because
50:09
Speaker 7: his father gave Harvard two point five million dollars that year.
50:13
Speaker 7: There was no issue about that. When they went back
50:16
Speaker 7: and they asked his teachers, the guidance counselors, they all
50:20
Speaker 7: said the same thing. He didn't have the grades, he
50:22
Speaker 7: didn't have the test scores to get into Harvard. It
50:25
Speaker 7: was oh bought. He's just white in the most crude sense,
50:32
Speaker 7: white male privilege, but white billionaire.
50:37
Speaker 2: Wealthy privilege. Yes, well, let me ask you, let me
50:41
Speaker 2: let me ask you.
50:42
Speaker 7: This to complete the thought. So there was an informational void,
50:49
Speaker 7: and that's where Natigna who stepped in to fill the void.
50:54
Speaker 7: He told Trump it's going to be a pushover. Were
51:00
Speaker 7: of those demonstrations in Iran it's falling apart around the
51:05
Speaker 7: Mullahs are standing on the precipice. A little joke and
51:10
Speaker 7: they'll fall over. We have all our agents in Iran,
51:15
Speaker 7: they're everywhere, and they're ready to organize regime change. And
51:20
Speaker 7: if it happens, you will go down in history as
51:24
Speaker 7: the greatest statesman to have ever occupied the White House.
51:30
Speaker 7: You know, he soups them up. Yep, that's a factor
51:33
Speaker 7: that Tucker Crosson leaves out. This president is obviously very
51:39
Speaker 7: susceptible to being souped up and is ready to be
51:44
Speaker 7: fooled because it feeds his ego. The prospects that have
51:48
Speaker 7: opened up, especially after Venezuela, and Trump's commitment to the
51:58
Speaker 7: national interest as you might call it, as they perceive it,
52:04
Speaker 7: it's balanced significantly by his own ego. The national interest
52:12
Speaker 7: is there in my opinion, for sure, but his own
52:17
Speaker 7: ego looms as large and sometimes larger than the national interest.
52:23
Speaker 7: So I think that's a very simple explanation, you know,
52:28
Speaker 7: ox Sam's razor. The simplest explanation is often the right one.
52:33
Speaker 7: We don't have to go to conspiracy theories, we don't
52:38
Speaker 7: have to go to other explanations. The atle sins and this,
52:46
Speaker 7: and then I think the explanation based on Trump's conduct,
52:52
Speaker 7: his instincts, and in particular in the double sense, his
52:56
Speaker 7: impulses explaining what happened.
53:01
Speaker 2: Well, and that would explain why he decided to do
53:04
Speaker 2: this war. Even though other presidents which have also been
53:07
Speaker 2: antagonistic towards Iran and have had pressure from Israel to
53:11
Speaker 2: go to war, why they decided not to because of
53:14
Speaker 2: the unique interplay of his sort of narcissism and egoism,
53:18
Speaker 2: and as you've said in other interviews, the way he
53:20
Speaker 2: has personalized the presidency. But let me just play Devil's advocations.
53:24
Speaker 7: Well, let me just I just add one thing for
53:27
Speaker 7: the sake of your listeners, because I know you know,
53:31
Speaker 7: not so long ago, we did try Iran. We tried.
53:36
Speaker 7: The goal of the Cheney Rumsfeld administration was Iraq, Syria, Iran.
53:44
Speaker 7: It was a consensus among everybody in the Bush administration
53:49
Speaker 7: that Iran had to be dethroned. There had to be
53:54
Speaker 7: I hate that expression, but a regime change in Iran.
53:58
Speaker 7: They just thought it would be the third step along
54:01
Speaker 7: the way. But back then there was a consensus in
54:07
Speaker 7: the Bush administration that we were going to go to
54:10
Speaker 7: war with Iran. It was just not this moment. We
54:13
Speaker 7: first want to weaken Iraq or overthrow Iraq in Syria.
54:20
Speaker 7: So when you say previous administrations didn't try it, well,
54:24
Speaker 7: actually they were ready. They started with Iraq.
54:31
Speaker 2: Drop Side News did some polling and found that a
54:33
Speaker 2: majority of Americans believe that covering up the Epstein files
54:37
Speaker 2: was at least part of the motivation for going to
54:40
Speaker 2: war in Iran. And so the argument would basically be like, look,
54:43
Speaker 2: we know Israel does these blackmail operations. That's certainly undeniable.
54:47
Speaker 2: There's some reporting to suggest that they used the Lewinsky
54:50
Speaker 2: situation with Bill Clinton to try to coherce him in
54:53
Speaker 2: terms of negotiations that were ongoing at that time, So
54:56
Speaker 2: we know that there's certainly not above it. Right, then
54:59
Speaker 2: you have this, You know the Epstein files partially revealed
55:03
Speaker 2: and Trump's name throughout them, and we know that he
55:07
Speaker 2: was best friends with Jeffrey Epstein for over a decade.
55:11
Speaker 2: So isn't it reasonable to put two and two together
55:13
Speaker 2: and say Israel may have something on him or Trump
55:16
Speaker 2: may think that Israel has something on him that is
55:19
Speaker 2: damaging enough that it provides them some leverage to further
55:23
Speaker 2: push him in this direction beyond what is you know,
55:26
Speaker 2: what he perceives as the national interest, and what he
55:28
Speaker 2: perceives as you know, his potential for military glory and
55:32
Speaker 2: great man historical impact.
55:35
Speaker 7: This reminds me of the saying if Grandma had wheels,
55:42
Speaker 7: she'd be a baby carriage. There are just too many
55:46
Speaker 7: ifs here.
55:47
Speaker 2: I'm not sure I've heard that one before.
55:50
Speaker 7: Okay, maybe it's for my generation, which is in many
55:54
Speaker 7: generations past yours. There's just no evidence for it. It's
55:59
Speaker 7: pot well, many things are possible. I can give you
56:02
Speaker 7: an infinite regression of possible scenarios. I have to say that,
56:11
Speaker 7: and here will I'll be, you know, serious, or I
56:15
Speaker 7: try to be serious, though not grave grave. I like
56:20
Speaker 7: seriousness with an element of humor. There's a real problem
56:26
Speaker 7: with the current generation. It's rife in ways I believe
56:33
Speaker 7: unprecedented in my lifetime. It's rife with conspiracy theories about everything.
56:42
Speaker 7: I was yesterday talking to a fellow on the boardwalk
56:45
Speaker 7: of Corney Island. I was going on my walk and
56:47
Speaker 7: we're having a conversation. He knew me by reputation, public reputation,
56:54
Speaker 7: and at some point he says what do you think
56:57
Speaker 7: of the Illuminati? What do you think about the Masons?
57:05
Speaker 7: And I tried very patiently and not patronizingly, to say,
57:13
Speaker 7: I don't think we have to go there to try
57:16
Speaker 7: to explain what's going on in the world. Now I
57:21
Speaker 7: get very angry emails from people who are irate that
57:32
Speaker 7: I don't believe the Israelis killed John F. Kennedy. That's
57:39
Speaker 7: become a new thing. I want to emphasize a new thing.
57:45
Speaker 7: There's always been speculation about who killed the JFK. And
57:51
Speaker 7: I checked it yesterday. I was curious because I myself
57:55
Speaker 7: was one of those who killed JFK. Sleuth's If you Google,
58:02
Speaker 7: you'll find that there were approximately one to two thousand
58:08
Speaker 7: books written on the Kennedy assassination.
58:11
Speaker 2: Wow.
58:12
Speaker 7: And if you factor in books which touch and the
58:17
Speaker 7: periphery of this assassination, the number goes up, believe it
58:23
Speaker 7: or not, Crystal to forty thousand.
58:26
Speaker 1: Wow.
58:27
Speaker 7: Yes, I did not read all of them. I did
58:32
Speaker 7: not read nearly all of them. But for a youngster
58:36
Speaker 7: when Kennedy was killed, I was in fifth grade. I
58:40
Speaker 7: met many of them. I was curious the most famous,
58:45
Speaker 7: which was in the Best Times bestseller list. If I
58:47
Speaker 7: believe for quite a long time, when the best seller
58:50
Speaker 7: meant something, listen meant something. Now it's nothing. It's just
58:52
Speaker 7: you purchase your name on It was Mark Lane's rush
58:58
Speaker 7: to judgment. There was Harold Weisberg's whitewash. I remember the titles.
59:06
Speaker 7: I read them, and I was convinced, you know, it
59:08
Speaker 7: was a cover up. But here's the thing. You can
59:12
Speaker 7: go through those two thousand titles one to two thousand,
59:16
Speaker 7: you can go through the forty thousand. Israel will never
59:21
Speaker 7: appear there. It was not even an issue. It suddenly
59:27
Speaker 7: became because I think there are two reasons for this
59:33
Speaker 7: number One, as you know, because you're a podcaster and
59:38
Speaker 7: you struggle to like Enroller Derby, you know, Elbowing to
59:42
Speaker 7: get to the head of the pack, you realize that
59:46
Speaker 7: there is nobody on the left in the upper tier
59:51
Speaker 7: of the podcast world. The closest you get is somebody
59:56
Speaker 7: like Mechti Hassan, who's not really a person of the
59:59
Speaker 7: left and probablyouldn't even describe himself as a person of
1:00:02
Speaker 7: the left. The big names are Elon Musk. I was surprised,
1:00:07
Speaker 7: Jackson Hinkel, of course, Candace Owens, you know the list,
1:00:16
Speaker 7: and these kinds of conspiracy analysis. They are a hallmark
1:00:24
Speaker 7: of the right wing. The left always prided itself on
1:00:28
Speaker 7: what it quote for better or worse. Maybe it's a cliche,
1:00:33
Speaker 7: a historical materialist analysis. That's what we used to call it,
1:00:37
Speaker 7: a historical materialist analysis. That's gone. You just have and
1:00:44
Speaker 7: if this, and if that, and if this, and if
1:00:47
Speaker 7: you put I can't tell you tell you the kinds
1:00:50
Speaker 7: of emails I'm getting from people who are so angry
1:00:53
Speaker 7: at me for saying Israel didn't. Look, I don't think
1:00:57
Speaker 7: Israel killed Lincoln. I don't.
1:01:02
Speaker 2: About that one.
1:01:03
Speaker 7: Yes, now I will get the thread of link. Why
1:01:07
Speaker 7: did I say that? And uh So, there's that, the
1:01:14
Speaker 7: fact that the right wing dominates the web right now,
1:01:20
Speaker 7: and there is no Ah in the upper tier. There
1:01:25
Speaker 7: is no rational, historical quote unquote materialist podcasters out there
1:01:33
Speaker 7: at that level, at that leve. And the other thing
1:01:36
Speaker 7: is your generation. And I'm not one of them who's
1:01:40
Speaker 7: I'm not one of those disposed to be excessively critical
1:01:46
Speaker 7: of your generation and the generation after yours. I find
1:01:50
Speaker 7: my students to be very morally serious, probably more so
1:01:54
Speaker 7: than my generation. And I find they're not minds to
1:01:59
Speaker 7: be very nimble, so there's no problem there. The problem
1:02:03
Speaker 7: is the lack of the lack of practical skills, reading skills,
1:02:10
Speaker 7: the lack of mental discipline to sit through a full book,
1:02:15
Speaker 7: and the lack of a historical sense there is. It's
1:02:20
Speaker 7: a for me, it's a subject of curiosity that when
1:02:25
Speaker 7: I was a young man, a person of the left,
1:02:28
Speaker 7: when we met people from the nineteen thirties, the great
1:02:32
Speaker 7: anti fascist uh and socialist movements in the United States,
1:02:39
Speaker 7: Communist Party, Socialist Party, and so forth, we were brimming
1:02:43
Speaker 7: with curiosity.
1:02:45
Speaker 5: What was it like?
1:02:46
Speaker 7: What was it like to be in the Communist Party?
1:02:48
Speaker 7: What was it like, you know, to organize the steel workers,
1:02:53
Speaker 7: organize the miners. You know, those were those were herculian world,
1:02:59
Speaker 7: historic tasks and victories. I don't think I've ever met
1:03:04
Speaker 7: anyone who asked me a single question about whoa The
1:03:07
Speaker 7: anti Vietnam War movement was like the only thing your generation.
1:03:13
Speaker 7: People on the left who call themselves on the left,
1:03:15
Speaker 7: I don't believe they are in most cases, but the
1:03:19
Speaker 7: only thing they like is the black panthers, because it's
1:03:23
Speaker 7: so telegenic, you know, the berets, the sematics, the leather coats,
1:03:30
Speaker 7: you know, it's all theater, but the concrete work of
1:03:37
Speaker 7: transforming our society in significant ways with the civil rights movement.
1:03:43
Speaker 7: You know, the people and snick who most your listeners suppose.
1:03:47
Speaker 7: I don't want to be too presumptuous, people like Bob Moses.
1:03:51
Speaker 7: I mean, these people were really very impressive figures. Nobody knows.
1:03:58
Speaker 7: So in this historic vacuum, it's not surprising that these
1:04:07
Speaker 7: theories would come in. Anybody who lived through the Iraq War,
1:04:11
Speaker 7: which is they said, Okay, it's not yesterday, but it's
1:04:14
Speaker 7: twenty three years ago. It's just everything old is new again,
1:04:18
Speaker 7: every phrase regime change, mad Mullah's cakewalk. I was rereading
1:04:25
Speaker 7: a chapter I wrote in the book on the subject,
1:04:27
Speaker 7: and that was truck. I was all the same. Nobody
1:04:31
Speaker 7: needed to well. I should say there weren't conspiracy theories
1:04:35
Speaker 7: that it was Israel that dragged us into the Iraq
1:04:37
Speaker 7: War in two thousand and three. But I don't believe
1:04:40
Speaker 7: there's any evidence for that, and I've read everything. There
1:04:43
Speaker 7: isn't a subject I really have. There's no evidence for it.
1:04:51
Speaker 7: I won't run through it now. If your character asked me,
1:04:54
Speaker 7: I will, but there's no evidence. So I think that
1:04:57
Speaker 7: that's a real problem. You give me a question, you say, well,
1:05:02
Speaker 7: if this, and if that, and if this, and if
1:05:05
Speaker 7: if that, and then you said, well, then if two
1:05:08
Speaker 7: and two make four. I didn't see one two, let
1:05:13
Speaker 7: alone two twos. And I don't know where you got
1:05:15
Speaker 7: four from. Oh I got? Oh I got? Was this
1:05:20
Speaker 7: wild speculation about well, if if Jeff Epstein was a pervert,
1:05:29
Speaker 7: and if he had dirt and all these other guys,
1:05:34
Speaker 7: and if he knew Donald Trump, and if Donald Trump
1:05:40
Speaker 7: there's no evidence? Well that frustrated everybody writes me, why
1:05:46
Speaker 7: why the fact is leading to the Iraq war? Why
1:05:49
Speaker 7: didn't you mention Jeff Epstein. Well, there's a simple reason why.
1:05:56
Speaker 7: I don't see any evidence yet. And I you could say, well,
1:06:00
Speaker 7: there's then that that's the only plausible explanation. Okay, that's it.
1:06:07
Speaker 7: But there are a lot of very simple explanations.
1:06:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's the most important part of
1:06:12
Speaker 2: your analysis, because what frustrates me is the it's all
1:06:15
Speaker 2: Israel's fault in terms of the Iran war is obviously
1:06:18
Speaker 2: everyone is acknowledging here that Israel has, you know, their
1:06:22
Speaker 2: own goals. They've wanted the war US to get in
1:06:24
Speaker 2: the war with Iran. There's no doubt about that that Nanya,
1:06:27
Speaker 2: who is trying to persuade Trump et cetera. But Number one,
1:06:30
Speaker 2: it deprives Trump of agency, makes him like he's just
1:06:35
Speaker 2: some puppet who has no you know, autonomy or no choice.
1:06:39
Speaker 2: And it also ignores the fact that the interest of
1:06:42
Speaker 2: US empire and the fact that, as you rightly point out,
1:06:46
Speaker 2: every president has effectively been adversarial towards Iran. You know,
1:06:50
Speaker 2: you did have the JCPOA under Obama. That was a
1:06:53
Speaker 2: you know, a different approach. I think it was one
1:06:55
Speaker 2: of the best accomplishments he had in his presidency, but
1:06:57
Speaker 2: it was immediately ripped up by Trump and then Biden
1:07:00
Speaker 2: with Blincoln, chose not to get back in. So I
1:07:03
Speaker 2: think those points are extremely important and well said. Norm.
1:07:07
Speaker 2: It's always great speaking with you. We'll have to set
1:07:09
Speaker 2: a date for another interview where we talk about the
1:07:13
Speaker 2: anti war movement in Vietnam and what that was like
1:07:17
Speaker 2: and what worked most effectively, because I think those lessons
1:07:21
Speaker 2: from the past would in fact be very valuable for today.
1:07:23
Speaker 2: But it's always great to see you. Norm.
1:07:24
Speaker 7: Thank you so much, Thank you so much, boyd bye.
1:07:27
Speaker 2: All right, that does it for us here today. Thank
1:07:30
Speaker 2: you guys as always for watching. Sager and Emily will
1:07:32
Speaker 2: be on tomorrow so they will see you then.