Latest / Art of the Question / Why Women Hate Sydney Sweeney (But Love Marilyn Monroe) - April Vevea - #58

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Why Women Hate Sydney Sweeney (But Love Marilyn Monroe) - April Vevea - #58 · Art of the Question

• Julius Moorman: April, thank you so much for coming on the show. You are a, amongst other things, a Marilyn Monroe expert. ⁓ you have a Substack where you feature her a lot. You've written a book about her, I believe, and you've also participated in a movie about her. And the reason why I reached out to you is because you recently wrote a very interesting Substack article where you compare Sydney Sweeney with To Marilyn Monroe, and it was a reaction to all the backlash that she received after the the Novik ad. And what was so interesting to me is that I had also recorded a video about this very topic where I basically emphasized the double standards that seem to be going on because I found an article written by The Guardian, the newspaper, where ⁓ Marilyn Monroe is described as this. sex symbol but also as a feminist icon. And that same newspaper also wrote an article about how damaging this advertisement from Sydney Sweeney was to women, to to female athletes, and so on and so forth. And then I found your your Substack article. So I was really happy that I discovered you and I thought it would make for a great podcast episode and a great conversation. So here we are. ⁓ before we get into the specifics of things, ⁓ I just introduced you a little bit, but you can probably do a much better job than I can. So ⁓ if you ⁓ yeah, feel free to to introduce yourself for for the people who aren't familiar with ⁓ your work. Okay. ⁓ yeah, I'm April Vivier. I I will say I'm I I've been listening to episodes of of your podcast, and I'm so happy to be here. It's wonderful. I I love what you're doing. ⁓ but a little bit about me. Well, I'm currently finishing up my PhD in screen studies at Oklahoma State University. I as you point out, I've written a book on Merrill Monroe. I have two editions. It's Meryl Monroe, A Day in the Life, and it's just a timeline biography, just to kind of, you know, settle where she was throughout her life. ⁓ and I've also written a book on Jane Mansfield called Puff Publicity. ⁓ and yeah, I I joined Substack because I I have a decent Instagram following, but you can't really go into nuance on Instagram. So on Instagram I run the Constructed Glamour project, which really reflects my PhD research. That's super interesting. And what I ⁓ before we I think it would make sense to start with the comparison between Monroe and and Sweeney. But before we do, can you maybe explain when your well perhaps you can call it fascination, but at least your interest in Monroe started and why? Because I believe that was already at quite a young age, no? Yes. So I It probably went in phases, but to to make a very long story ⁓ relatively shorter. ⁓ I really became invested in her around the time I was sixteen years old. And it was primarily because I was on MySpace and I saw just tons of quotes attributed attributed to her. And of course, you know, me being sixteen, I was like, ⁓ my gosh, these are so deep. This woman is so interesting. So I I wanted to know more about her. And so I I convinced my mom to get me a couple. My mom's not a Maryland Monroe fan, by the way, but I convinced her to get me a couple biographies on her. I read them and I was like, like there's so many layers to this woman. And now 20 years later, I I've gone through so much. I have visit archives all around the United States trying to find out what I can about her. And it has left me with a picture of a very complicated woman who is kind of a blank slate that anyone could put whatever they want on her. So she she's fascinating, but most of what we see probably does not reflect how she was in real life. No, it's always difficult to accurately understand how someone actually was because Yeah, especially when someone is not alive anymore and and you can you just have to work with the historical archives, if you will. ⁓ that makes things a bit more complicated. But I think given your extensive research on her, we can still try and and get to see if we can can paint a picture of of who she was. And I think that would be interesting to do before we start to talk about the whole Sydney Sweeney stuff is to to get a picture of who who she was. I mean most people have heard about Marilyn Monroe, but because it was quite a long time ago, I think it would make sense to go back and learn a little bit more about her her story. And I know this you can you you did write a book about this, so ⁓ but We can talk about this topic for for hours, but yeah, just in a in in a in a few minutes, I think that will be interesting to ⁓ to do. Yeah, of course. So Marilyn Monroe was obviously born on June first, nineteen twenty-six. Within about three weeks, she is placed with a neighbor of her grandmother's. ⁓ her her mother Gladys places her there because she feels that she is not equipped to care for her baby right now. And Marilyn will spend the next seven years with them. It's a very religious household, which is the reason I'm primarily bringing them up. ⁓ because Marilyn will go and she will do things with her mom, like go to the movies, she'll she'll go dancing. And, you know, this this family is telling her that every activity she does with her biological mom is a sin. Like she is going to go to hell if she actually enjoys doing these things, which you can really see how that would, you know, mess with a child's psyche. Hearing anything that your biological woman likes to do is just wrong. So eventually Gladys pulls her out from them. she buys a house for her Norma Jean. She ends up having a mental breakdown. She's put into a mental health institution, and Norma Jean basically kind of jumps around with people that her her legal guardian Gladys either knew, was friendly with, or was related to. So she has, you know, this tumultuous childhood that we all kind of, you know, want to focus on. I think in some ways gets used as an excuse or as a method to explain certain things then like, ⁓ I don't know if we're quite making that connection. ⁓ but she she ends up getting married For the first time when she's 16 years old. Sh marriage is a marriage of convenience, so she doesn't have to go and live in an orphanage, being her, I guess we can call them a foster family, is moving across the country to West Virginia. She goes into modeling in 1944 while her husband is away. And she's relatively successful. She can't really do fashion work. She's mostly focusing on pinup. Or what they called at the time would be photograph modeling, but it's more so kind of like advertising. ⁓ she she's not though going into the fashion aspect of it. It's like she'll, you know, she'll make a beer ad or something like that. Kind of like Sydney Sweeney, right? Like Sydney Sweeney's not posing for Dior. but you know, she she wants to get into movies because modeling careers are relatively short-lived at this point. When Marilyn goes into modeling, The average model is only working for about two to four years. And either once the once that's up, they're either getting married or they're going into another form of the entertainment industry. So Marilyn obviously graduates to movies. She finally lands her Fox contract in 1951. She Kind of just plugs along. Fox is figuring out what they want to do with her. Are they going to put her in the Lana Turner vein where she's doing these, you know, glamorously at dramatic parts? Or are they going to put her more in the Betty Grable vein where, you know, she's doing like these fun musicals? And they end up deciding, ⁓ after relative success with Niagara, but superstar success with Gentlemen Preferred Wands, that Marilyn is going to be like this musical archetype. She makes it her own. I will give her Credit on that. She she completely embraces it. She's quite a talented comedian. And she does that, you know, relatively for the rest of her career. You know, we make a big deal about her starting this production company and, you know, fighting for roles. And I do think that deserves attention, but she also knows what the public wants. The public wants to see this dumb blonde character that she has created. And that through her interview quotes, she seemingly lives like that. And she struggles with this. She wants to be considered a dramatic actress. She says in 1952 that she thinks that cheesecake was important for her buildup, but now she wants to focus on becoming an actress. And that's not really how this system works. You you don't get to use aspects of it that you like to get famous and then completely discard that. So she kind of puts herself in this gilded cage, obviously. By nineteen sixty-two, her career is just it's it's gone downhill. She's really struggling with what she's going to do next. She had made The Misfits, which was written by her third husband, Arthur Miller. And I think it's a decent performance. I I actually quite like the movie, but the audience hates it. They that is not how they want to see Merrill Monroe. It's not a box office bomb, but it barely makes any thing back from its budget and it's mostly European audiences who who make it successful. ⁓ so she's going into her final movie, it ends up being incomplete, but that's something's got to give. And of course she makes a bun or she gets a bunch of attention. She has a huge uproar because she appears nude in the film. And if the scene had been included, which I have my doubts about, but if it had It would have been the first time that a mainstream American actress had appeared nude in a mainstream American film since the Hayes Code went into effect in 1934. She poses nude several times after she's fired from Fox that summer for basically filming her nude scene and then coming to a couple other coming a couple other days. so Fox is just like, we're done. Like we only have 11 minutes of usable footage. This is supposed to be a 90-minute movie. ⁓ so she yeah, she goes on this campaign to sit there and try to show, like, hey, I'm still hot, I'm still here, I'm still relevant. ⁓ it's it receives mixed results, which I'm sure we will talk about because it's very much again like Sydney Sweeney. And then of course. She passes away in the late hours of August fourth or early hours of August fifth, nineteen sixty-two. So hopefully that's a good that's a good introduction for her. I think we're all on the same side. I think I think that's a that's a good introduction, but it almost would you say that she became more popular after she passed? I think that her image became more popular after she passed. I think, you know, there the I don't know how much you want me to talk about it, but I'm ha I can talk about for hours. ⁓ obviously we won't do that. But you know, she she goes through the normal kind of star trajectory after somebody passes away. Usually there's a lot of attention when they first pass away, up until about that first year to two years. And then it kind of dies down. You might get a book after like five to seven years. That's not uncommon. And that actually happens with Marilyn. ⁓ so she she's really not, you know, painted as like, ⁓ my gosh, this is a great loss. You know, there the LA Times takes a poll a couple days after she dies, and they ask, you know, will there be another Marilyn Monroe? And the majority of respondents believe there will be another Marilyn Monroe. She's not looked at as Particularly special the way we look at her now. But then in 1972, we get Norman Mahler's book. And Norman Mahler paints her as, you know, this horrible victim who was murdered, puts all of this conspiracy stuff. He later goes on 60 Minutes and he tells Mike Wallace, I wrote the book for the money. Like I'm not saying it's all factual. I wrote it for the money. ⁓ but in addition to Mahler, we also get Gloria Steinem, who decides to feature Marilyn on the cover of the August nineteen seventy-two issue of Miss Magazine. And actually the whole issue, ⁓ not the whole, but a large part of the issue is dedicated to Marilyn Monroe. And, you know, Styam is kind of playing around with these same ideas as Malor. Like, is there a conspiracy? You know, kind of what's happening with? with, you know, Marilyn's memory. But she also is doing this reframing. She's that's when we really start to see Marilyn reframed as, hey, you know, maybe there are feminist aspects to Marilyn. Maybe there is something going on here. So though those two narratives from two very different people really propel Marilyn's image and her memory into a level of fame that I would say she didn't even really experience during her lifetime to to the same extent that we see now. And of course some of that is like tech changes and you know the rise of celebrity merch and things like that. Yeah. And it's also what I all always find interesting about celebrities from the past is that we used to only have a few celebrities, right? And everyone knew all the celebrities because there was no such thing as social media. There were a a couple of people on TV, then there were a couple of writers, then ⁓ a couple of actors, actresses, some some sports people, for example, but but that was about it. And I think if you look at the Beatles, for example, or or some other like super superstars from the past, it it seems that they used to be more famous because there were just less famous people. So the fame was more concentrated. Whereas right now the the internet makes it much more siloed. So there there can be there's probably like thousands of people that have tens, 10 to 20 million subscribers or or followers on Instagram, for example, that I've never heard of. So if fame is always difficult to to compare, I think. However, ⁓ if we're talking about Sydney Sweeney, ⁓ that is such a yeah, world famous person that arguably sh she is one of those people that pretty much everyone knows at this point. And part of it is a lot of it is because of of controversy. ⁓ Crazily enough. But to me, and I think that's that's well p p part of the reason I wanted to do this episode is I I don't know as much about Marilyn Monroe as you do, obviously, but I often hear her in the context of being a feminist icon, someone who used her good looks and and and used that in a way To become successful, to earn a lot of money, and to become independent. She didn't need ⁓ a man to provide for her. ⁓ she had it all. She she was she was pretty and and she in in many ways was an example for for many women, not necessarily because she was going nude in a movie, for example, but just a highly successful, literally an an An icon. And arguably, on paper at least, Sydney Sweeney should be the same, at least very similar. And what I mean by that is she knows exactly what she's doing. She uses her good looks to earn money. And previously she's been the target of controversy after the Great Jeans ad, for example. Where people would argue, hey, this advertisement was racist because Sydney Sweeney said that she had great genes. Now, personally, I don't believe that the advertisement was racist at all. I mean, it's pretty you can pretty objectively say that Sydney Sweeney has good genes and it was just a play on words. I think There are every race has people with good genes. And and yeah, Sydney Sweeney is a Caucasian woman who also ⁓ tends to have ⁓ good genes. So at least that was probably one of the first bigger controversies around her. Then there was Dr. Squatch, of course. But the bigger one, definitely the biggest one so far, I've I feel like is the Novic gambling ad. And I think. She she received a lot of backlash for for setting women's sports back a hundred years. I've heard some people say that, and that it was a disgrace for women's sports. And I just thought that was strange because the advertisement was targeted at a male audience and it had nothing to do with sports. It was a gambling advertisement for a platform that she has shares in that you that allows you to gamble on sports. So that's the only link to sports. Now, if the critics would have said, hey, this is very damaging what what she's doing by promoting a gambling service, I think they would would have been on the right track. Because I think you can make a lot of arguments that promoting gambling is extremely damaging if you see what it's doing to a lot of young men who are struggling with gambling addictions. I mean it's just terrible. But instead of focusing on the thing that is actually bad about promoting gambling, they focused on yeah, just how she was setting back women's sport. Well, she's not even an athlete. So to me, that kind of indicates the the double standards and and the selective outrage indicates to me that there is something more going on there. So I kind of want to understand. What is it about Sydney Sweeney that makes her a threat, or at least ⁓ an enemy of the modern feminist movement? Where in the same breath, Marilyn Monroe can be seen as ⁓ a superstar and and a feminist icon. That is just hard to to understand when you when you break it down. So ⁓ that's a long way of ⁓ well. introducing the the main point of the episode. You've you've written ⁓ a story, ⁓ a Substeck article about this. Can you maybe explain what the article is about and why you think these two women are comparable? Yeah, so I have a lot of the same feelings that you do on this. You know, ⁓ I I was very confused by the women's athlete angle because I'm like, well, are you saying that like men should be betting on women's sports? Like, is that what you want? Like, what are we doing? I couldn't quite figure it out. ⁓ but you know, the the big thing between the two of them is both of them have the same, the same criticism leveraged towards, you know, Towards them in in their respective time periods, right? You know, Marilyn Monroe is very much talking about how she centers herself within a male, you know, the male gaze. Of course, the concept of the male gaze has it doesn't have words yet at this point, but she very much just is comfortable with centering herself within male sphere. She talks about how she loves men. She repeatedly talks about how she doesn't really want to be around women. ⁓ You know, and and Sydney Sweeney then of course She's really not saying it like as much as Marilyn is, if I'm honest with you. But of course, people look at, you know, how she's posing or what she's doing and they go, ⁓ well, you know, like obviously she sides with men. ⁓ so it's it's very much the same discourse. It's nothing has really changed. So I guess, you know, to keep it short, that's pretty much the heart of my article of, you know, we we have not progressed. We're using the same. terms against these women. We have the same logic, you know, against these women that that we did 60 years ago. but to to answer then kind of like the second part as to why one is considered a feminist icon and one is not, my arg or my response honestly is one is dead and one is living. Like I think as as base as that sounds, I think that's what a lot of it boils down to. Yeah, you that seems to be weird after that's it happens so often. There's a good example of a Dutch ⁓ TV host who was he was very controversial, especially near the end of his career because he was l leaning more and more towards right wing ideas. And he he was always very controversial, but definitely near near the end ⁓ of his life he seemed to yeah, become a bit more a bit more extreme. And the thing is people despised this guy because in in in the ⁓ media landscape if if you if you are not ⁓ completely ⁓ on on the left, ⁓ that means you you are Yeah, you are not considered as ⁓ I think in in the at least in the Dutch media landscape, ⁓ it it's a no go to have ⁓ a div a different ⁓ opinion, basically. But to be fair, this guy, Robert Jensen, is his name. He was it he was a bit crazy, I I I won't lie. But the thing is a after after he died, everyone seemed to be so ⁓ people started making articles about his work and his early career and how he really introduced a whole new genre onto Dutch television. And then after you you saw some interesting people like, hey, maybe we should be more kind to people while they are alive, because now he's dead and now we see only the good things. ⁓ but maybe we're we were a little bit too harsh on on the guy. It's strange, right? That would that someone has to die in order for us to to see to focus on the on the positive things. Yeah, one one hundred percent. You know, Marilyn is considered quite vulgar in the nineteen fifties. I think she would be flabbergasted to see how she's painted today. And it's all just, you know, it's all just posthumous. Eule, I love that you brought up that example because I think it's the same thing with Marilyn. You know, people came out after she died and they were like, ⁓ she was wonderful. I loved working with her. Or, you know, she was great. She brought it something magnetic to the screen that no one had ever seen before. And it's like, well, you know, all these accolades are great once she's dead, but she, you know, this is you know kind of the attention she wanted when she was alive. So I I do think that we tend to reframe and you know, at least in in Western cultures, there's very much a mindset of, well, we don't talk portably about the dead. And so people kind of get exalted. and you know, we we can justify it when we think, ⁓ well, this person was treated badly while they were alive. So like this is justifiable. But I'm like, well, no, there's nuance, like, you know. Things with Marilyn like deserved criticism back then just like they would dis get criticism today. I mean, it it doesn't have to be that everything is just like, ⁓ this is perfection. Yeah, and I th I think one of the things you pointed out also in in the article was that Marilyn Monroe today might be seen as a feminist icon. However, d when she was alive, she faced many of the same criticisms that Sydney Sweeney is facing today. ⁓ yes. I mean, a ton. The discourse really hasn't changed. It's just whoever the subject is, right? I I know that you and I spoke very briefly about the man's girl comment. You know, a columnist is talking about Maryland in nineteen fifty two, and he says, Well, Maryland is becoming a man's girl. She's, you know, centering herself within with men. She's routinely talking about how much she loves men. You know, and ⁓ if if anyone goes to the article, I I think I did five or six articles about Marilyn Monroe just talking about how much she loves men and really does not like being, you know, around women. And of course, today that is considered polar opposite of what, you know, a good feminist would do, you know. A a g a good feminist is going to sit there and raise women up and you know leave the door open behind her. You w whatever whatever terminology we want to use, right? ⁓ but of course Marilyn's not doing that. Marilyn is very focused on Marilyn. And we can talk about how, you know, it's her childhood or whatever we want to do with that. ⁓ but yeah, she she doesn't reflect anything of the modern feminist movement. There there have been now A couple different analysis on would Marilyn have joined the feminist movement? And the general consensus seems to be yes, she would have, because she would have had freedom with that. And I'm always very confounded by that narrative because I'm like, well, like, you know, the feminist movement doesn't just suddenly pop up in 1963. Like there are seeds and things, you know, relating to it well before this. ⁓ and Marilyn's not involved with any of that. you know, she she does care about certain political issues, but d I don't think there's anything that suggests that Marilyn would have been like joining in the Miss America protest ⁓ in the in the 1960s and, you know, s the idea that, you know, she's going to burn her bra, ⁓ which technically didn't happen at the protest, but that's what people kind of think of with it, at least over here in the US. ⁓ but I also think the other thing is is that even if she Completely was on board. She made a complete turnaround. She was like, you know what? You're right. I was a horrible example to womanhood when I made these movies. I am no longer going to do that. That does not mean that the feminist movement of the 1960s would have accepted her either. You know, we we kind of look at it as, you know, like, ⁓ well, Marilyn Liv done this. I'm like, well, you know. These are people who are actively speaking out about what she represented and what she was doing with her life and what she did with her career. ⁓ Jane Mansfield was alive during the feminist movement and, you know, saw the this rise in popularity. And, you know, as a woman who appeared in nude on film and in magazines, raised five kids, was, you know, the primary breadwinner in her home. Like, She should have been readily accepted by the feminist movement. But of course, she is very cruelly rejected and she is considered a relic and you know, just kind of a gross exploitation of the feminine ideal. And it's not until, again, about 10 years after her death, that we see a reframing by ⁓ former professor Martha Saxton, who was like, ⁓ no, like there's feminist underlinings here, and maybe we should celebrate Mansfield. But I'm like, okay, well, like. Again, that's great, but you know, like you weren't accepting her ten years ago when she was actively alive and, you know, doing doing all of this. Yeah, and do you think part of the reason that she is now more seen as a feminist icon also has something to do specifically with the criticisms she has faced back in the day? And then she just went along and did it anyway. So kind of this contrarian ⁓ personality that she seemed to have and going against her wind and fending for herself, just following her own path no matter what anyone tells her to do, which is very empowering in in a sense, and that it also seems to be. ⁓ her her against the world almost and and that after the fact we may appreciate that as something that it was very powerful ⁓ t for a woman in that age to do yeah so I think you know the the feminist viewpoint of Marilyn has also kind of shifted right like like Gloria Steinem going going back to that because She's really a person that kind of projects this idea. It really kind of centers Marilyn, at least initially, in victimhood. Like, look what look what happened to this woman when she started centering herself around men. Like she was progressive in all these ways, but when it came to men, she wasn't. And this is why feminism would have helped her. Like that's initially how Monroe is framed in this discussion, right? ⁓ and then of course. we we see it morph and change and progress just like everything else and she becomes, you know, feminist girl boss Marilyn. ⁓ so I think to to answer your question more directly, I do think her going against the grain on certain things has definitely contributed to this. But I also think that Marilyn dying right before the feminist movement. picks up mainstream, you know, attention support discourse, ⁓ as well as, you know, obviously then this posthumous reframing of her are are probably the biggest contributors because she's a blank slate that you can put your beliefs on. She didn't have to s go through anything relating to the movement when it was happening. She never had to spoke speak out against it. And so At least from what I see, a lot of feminist discourse tends to cherry pick things. So they'll say, ⁓ you know, like she left her abusive husband, Joe DiMaggio, which I mean, yes, that is great that she did that. But, you know, like she also had the financial means to do that. And a lot of women with the same financial means as her would have done the same thing. And that doesn't necessarily mean they would have aligned with the feminist movement or they did when it, you know. later when it when it becomes a a national talking point. Or, you know, a lot of people will go on about the production company. And a common rumor is, ⁓ she's one of the first women to start her own production company. Well, she's not. She's probably closer to the hundredth once you include all the silent film stars who have their own production companies. ⁓ but Marilyn models her company off Rita Hayworth. Rita Hayworth is very much in the same vein of of Maryland, at least, you know. when it when it comes to her earliest work. ⁓ but she has, you know, that glamour goddess. ⁓ I guess we can say moniker that she has to live up to, right? ⁓ but like Rita Hayworth doesn't necessarily fully identify with the, you know, with the feminist movement. But like on paper she should have, you know, she's a Hispanic woman who goes through this makeover process, has Just a string of horrible husbands, you know, ⁓ multiple who will admit that they were abusive towards her. She, you know, files for a divorce, she becomes a princess, then she files and gets a divorce from her prince, she starts her own production company, she later goes on to sue Columbia when she finds out that they're not giving her the money that they owe her. Like these are all I think hallmarks of what we would consider, you know, like, ⁓ like these women are feminists, but they're not considered that. So I I think. It's because, you know, someone like Hayworth lived through it. She didn't, you know, fully embrace it like people want her to embrace it. Whereas with Marilyn, you know, you could put whatever you want on her. Like I can say anything about her and, you know, I can cherry pick quotes or instances in her life where I'm like, ⁓ this supports my theory. Yeah. And ⁓ this might be difficult to I don't know whether women had the same voice during the time that Marilyn Monroe was still alive, ⁓ than they luckily have have now. But the criticisms that Monroe faced, were they mainly br for example, that she was called vulgar and and showing too much nudity, were they coming from men, women or both? Both, but predominantly women. ⁓ there is, you know, the if people want to get deep into the Marilyn Monroe war, there's this story that Marilyn Monroe wore, you know, the pink dress for the Diamonds Are Girl's Best Friend number because she had posed nude for her calendar and her identity had come out during this time and you know she was originally going to wear this Diamond Leotard. So they s or William Trevilla said or was told by Daryl Zanek, hey, you need to cover her up. Like we can't deal with this. ⁓ well, the issue with that story is that the nude calendar came out a year before. Like people knew her name almost a year before this costume's design. So like as much that's William Trevilla's re recollection of it. And I don't doubt that the calendar came into play, but it's highly doubtful that it happened the way he remembered it. ⁓ but I bring up this story because what's overlooked is that Jack Cole, who was the choreographer on Gentleman Preferred Blondes, also talked about this. And he didn't bring up the calendar at all. He said it was actually the the reason that they changed the costume as well as the dance numbers was because women's groups were writing Fox and they were protesting and they were saying that her sexualized imagery was gross, that They thought she was vulgar. They thought that she was not a role model for American girls. And so Fox goes into overdrive. Like they need female support of their of their films. And this is also when we start to see a change in Marilyn's interviews and how she discusses women. You know, ⁓ she starts saying, like, ⁓ you know, I actually quite like women. I I have like, you know, a firm base of women friends, ⁓ which is a complete 180 from what her previous Commentary had been, right? And so, you know, there are men who would speak out and say, like, ⁓ this is cheap or this is vulgar, but it's predominantly women. And a lot of like these female colon columnists are simply reflecting the like letters that they had received from women who had written them or like protests they knew were happening. So yeah, it it is predominantly women that are criticizing, which again, connecting to Sydney Sweeney, it is predominantly women that we see criticizing her. Yeah, you you were so knowledgeable about this. It's incredible. I I love it. and there's there's a a big similarity there. One thing about the whole Sydney Sweeney backlash that seems interesting to me is that if you break it down, so Sydney, I don't know how much shares. She has, but she has, I believe, a more a non zero amount of shares in this gambling company, Novic, right? ⁓ presumably a significant amount of shares. So she is actively profiting from a company that is predominantly targeted at men, because if you just look at the numbers, women don't gamble nearly as much as men do. ⁓ gambling is ⁓ yeah men seem to like to gamble ⁓ so in a sense she's just using her her looks almost as as a wolf in sheep's clothing to retrieve money from men. Now if you are a diehard feminist I think if you're just a a human being, I would say that's questionable behavior. But if you're like a diehard feminist, like there's the feminism is difficult, right? I wanna emphasize this because feminism isn't just one thing. There is many different kinds of feminism. Feminists that just generally believe in in equality, in that men and women should be treated equally and should have equal right rights, which is something I completely support. But there are also the more aggressive ⁓ feminists, if you will, who actively seem to hate or or dislike men. So f if we're talking about that last group of aggressive feminism, if you look at it through that lens, Sidney Sweeney is doing something incredible. She's exploiting men for the benefit of a female, being her in this case. And I just thought I was. On paper that sh that should be a a good act of aggressive feminism, ⁓ but it doesn't seem to be ⁓ received that way. ⁓ wha what do you make of all of that? So yes, you are right. Like on the surface, that should look at or that should be considered. Like, ⁓ look at this, you know, power move that she's doing, right? ⁓ but here Here, I guess, is the nuance or the issue with it, right? ⁓ a lot of times, because trust me, I've definitely been in these spaces connected to my research. ⁓ a lot of times these women will make the argument that it is good for poor women or women in marginalized groups to do this. Like they are sticking it to the man, they are struggling. They need to, you know, support themselves and if they can, you know, exploit men in order to do a power to them. I mean, you know, a lot of times we'll see some of these women support OnlyFans. ⁓ and they'll talk about like you know, only OnlyFans is great, right? ⁓ but Sydney Sweeney is not struggling. She is considered to have a certain level of, you know, fame and success, which people automatically think instantly translates to like cold hard cash. And I've had to explain multiple times, no, that's not really how that works. ⁓ but you know, she has a certain amount of cultural currency. So when we look at some or when we look at this criticism against Sweeney from this group that you think would celebrate her, they look at it more so like, well, she's above this now. She should be moving away from this. She doesn't need to debase herself like this because she is successful or she is comfortable, whatever terminology they want to use. So ⁓ I personally find that mindset quite classist. And I also find it just kind of asinine in general because I'm like, well, you know, what like What do you do with women, you know, going back to OnlyFans or like traditional old school pornography? Like, what do you do like when those women reach a certain level of success? ⁓ and it's frequently that they do not agree with themselves on anything like that. Like it's more so like, well, once you become a lot of I shouldn't say all, but many of them have the mindset of like, well, once you reach a certain level of porn, you should get out of it. I'm like, well, no, that's not how the industry works. Like you can't, it's very hard for women to just like get out of it. ⁓ unless, you know, they're unsuccessful at it. And then of course, this same group of women will jump on the people who were unsuccessful and go, ⁓ like you were so exploited. And yes, I mean, there is an exploitive aspect of pornography. Like completely agree. Not you're not going to argue with that. But, you know, I'm like, Well, yeah, but like you're also exploiting these women. You're like, Hey, like, let's talk about this. And I'm just like, Well, why are you doing that? Like if you were, you know, if you truly believe this was as painful as you were painting it, which I again, I mean, I'm not weighing in on that, but I'm just like, but then like you want them to talk about it. So like you want to exploit their trauma to prove your point. So, you know, th there's a lot to unpack with with these women. ⁓ there's no real clear ideology. ⁓ and like I said, a lot of them will disagree on the nuances. But ⁓ regarding Sweeney, I would say the majority of them have the mindset of like, well, she should have moved on from this. ⁓ I I know you saw that I I quoted the the telegraph article by Platt and she basically, you know, said, Well, Sydney Sweeney needs to be a girls girl now. And I'm like, Well, no, why does she need to be? Like the reason you want her to do that is because you think she should move on from where she has centered herself, but she doesn't owe you that. I mean, if this is what she wants to do until she's sixty and people are still willing to consume that material power to her. We'll go back to the conversation in just a second, but first I have an important announcement to make. If you've made it this far, I'm going to assume that you're enjoying the show. If you want to support the show, you can do so by leaving a like or a comment if you're watching on YouTube, or by rating the episode if you're listening on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. However, the single biggest thing you can do to support the show is by sharing it with someone you think might enjoy this episode. This could be a friend, it could be a family member, it could be a colleague. It doesn't really matter. If everyone who's currently listening to this episode would share it with just one person, the show would blow up in no time. Which also means that I could go full time. That means more episodes, it means better episodes, and it also means a happy host. So Please consider sharing the episode. It really helps me a lot. And I thank you. Now let's get back to talking. Yeah, and it's so interesting, especially when I'm so glad you you brought up OnlyFans there as well, because I think it's extremely relevant for for the discussion and to to point out the hypocrisy in some of these arguments that we've seen. the whole movement about free the nipple. Caller Daddy podcast where women are bragging about you should sleep with as many guys as as possible and nobody can tell you what to do. ⁓ w you should ⁓ be able to it is fine if you sexualize yourself, if you can do it to put yourself in a better position. Only fans is a great example of this. They are often welcomed and again because it's ⁓ major the majority of all of the consumers, I think, of OnlyFans, like ninety-nine percent are men, but somehow that is seen as something that is sticking it to to the man and putting money in in women's pockets somehow. But somewhere with Sidney Cellini, we we seem to draw the line, which just seems really, really strange to me. yeah, d if we if we if we d dig a little deeper in in into the comparison, is it is it again you you said something there about the position that she's in. So perhaps only fans are are not all of them, but they are women that at least when they start out, they are not famous ⁓ and they are not rich yet. ⁓ but Sydney Sweeney is already at a certain level in a in a certain league where she shouldn't crave or or shouldn't f benefit benefit from the from the male gaze anymore? Do you indeed think that that position matters a lot? And and if so, like w what where should we draw the line? Like at which point do you reach ⁓ a a moment that you say, okay, now you've benefited enough from sexualizing yourself and now you've you've made enough money. ⁓ so tomorrow you should quit all of it. It seems kind of difficult to keep score, right? Yeah, so I mean, see, it's an eternally moving goalpost, right? You know, some people are going to sit there and say, like, ⁓ you know. Like, this is what you should, you know, this is what you should do. And other people are like, no, keep doing what you're doing, right? ⁓ but as far as Sweeney, you know, and her and her positioning, like, like I said, I think she can feasibly do it for as long as she, you know, wants to do it. The women and men, I mean, there are men who also join in on this criticism. you know, the the people who are criticizing her. Are not her target audience to begin with. ⁓ so I mean, she can pretty much do whatever she wants to do, and she is not going to attract these people. The other thing, too, is that I think we've really seen with online discourse. Women are I should let me rephrase that. People can be careful. Yeah. People are very apt to criticize, but they will still partake in that media because they are curious. And of course, with how we have restructured how performers get paid, you know, with with ⁓ you know, just streaming in general, ⁓ there is very much like ⁓ curiosity is still getting this person paid, right? It's not like when you went and you borrowed a videotape in the nineties to two thousands and like watched it and, you know, the the studio never benefited from that, right? But now they do. Like your curiosity still gives her a paycheck unless you want to go through the process of tracking everything down and, you know, making sure it's not through a streaming service. But let's be honest, the average consumer is not going to do that. And even then, like, Yeah, you're not directly like contributing towards her getting money, but like you're still curious to see her. So I would be, I think, more curious than seeing if these people were honest with themselves, how many of them are at least somewhat partaking in this media? Like how many watched Euphoria? Or how many watched what what was the the housemaid or the housekeeper that yeah, the housemaid, the la the last one she did, you know. I I did kind of have to laugh about the telegraph article because, you know, the author was like, no, no one's going to, you know, come to her movies. She's going to see empty seats. I'm like, well, you know, as you brought up, we have the good jeans ad. The a lot of these are the same people criticizing her. So that was, you know, six months before the housemaid came out. So the housemaid should have had like horrible box office. The housemaid made over ten times its budget. Like the housemaid brought in A ton of money, especially for a mid-budget film. I mean, The Housemaid was a great success for what is. ⁓ and as much as I like, you know, Amanda Seafried, I I will also say I guarantee Sydney Sweeney was the main draw in that, right? So I think ⁓ I don't think she has to appeal to this audience right now. Now, I will say when she starts, you know, getting into, you know. Age is such a construct right now, right? Like, ⁓ my gosh. But we'll just to keep it simple. We'll say when she starts getting into her late 40s, early fifties, then I think that we might see where, you know, she ⁓ she would have to not really bring them in, but keep herself relevant enough to to connect with audiences when, you know, the chances of her posing nude for an online gambling app are pretty slim in terms of making money, right? ⁓ so, but I mean, again, I don't think that she'll ever have to directly appeal to this audience. ⁓ you know, she she might think that she needs to later, but I just don't see it. I mean, a lot of men as as I've experienced over the years are still very faithful. to, you know, a star that they fell in love with when they were younger. So I I just I don't think she needs this audience nearly as much as they claim she needs them. No, I agree. And yeah, The Housemaid. I I I read the book. I've also seen the movie, by the way. But Frieda McFadden, who wrote The Housemaid, that's one of the guilty pleasures I have. She she reads ⁓ she writes ⁓ a ton of books. ⁓ but I love it when I just wanna read something simple, ⁓ that doesn't require much energy. I I tend to read some of her books. ⁓ I think she's she's phenomenal. But you're right, the movie was an absolute success. So and this brings me to to my next question, which is like how and this is so difficult to to answer, right? Because I'm social media is difficult in the sense that it is built to only feature the most extreme takes. So You you'll see from both the left and the right, you'll see the most extreme stuff because that is what infuriates people. And if something infuriates people, they will start commenting on it, they will start sharing it, and that's how we see extremes. And people play into this as well on purpose to get a lot of views and become famous themselves. So people are now also incentivized. to spark outrage about certain certain topics, but I'm very curious to to know, and this isn't a question like I don't expect you to have a number here, but do you think that the majority of people and the majority of women actually despises Sydney Sweeney? Or do you think that it's just a small but very vocal group of aggressive feminists? I would say it's probably a very small and vocal group of aggressive feminists. I think that, you know, there there's a lot of different factors. I guess that's the best way to word it, right? Like I know older women who don't like how Sydney Sweeney markets herself and they want to classify themselves as feminists. But, you know, I also know like younger people who adore her and think that she's wonderful. I mean, I teach college students. So of course Sydney Sweeney is a frequent topic of discussion in my classes. So, you know, but yeah, I I would say, you know, and I think you brought up great point. Our our algorithm rewards us for engaging. The algorithms have learned. We are more likely to engage with things that we vehemently disagree with. than we are with things that we actually agree with or feel passionate about. And I mean, I'm guilty of this too. Like I am much more likely to read the comments on a post I disagree with versus something that like I really love, like someone saving kittens. Like I will love that post and then kind of scroll on, right? I'm just like, ⁓ yay, kittens and you know, then I'm done. ⁓ and like, you know, that that's just how the human brain's wired. So yeah, we we do have people there giving more extreme takes. ⁓ and you know, like Really, that's also what Sydney Sweeney's doing, right? Like she is going, she is leaning into, you know, something that she knows is going to cause controversy because it it keeps her relevant and gets her a paycheck. I mean, can you imagine? And of course, I don't expect you to have numbers for this one, but can you imagine how much site traffic jumped up, even for people who have no interest in sports betting, just because she did this ad? I mean, that's what they're counting on, just like that's what American Eagle was counting on with the good jeans thing. Which I did want to I I meant to bring this up to you earlier. But yeah, the good the good jeans thing was a little surprising to me as well, because I can remember like my grandparents using that terminology. So did my mom when I was younger. They they'd like be like, ⁓ yeah, like she has great jeans. You know what I mean? And so it was n not about me, by the way, but like if we saw someone that was like really pretty, they'd be like, ⁓ yeah, you know, like she has good jeans. ⁓ and so it was just funny to me to see it and like how it's become something completely different. And of course, you know, like I'm not a member of those communities or those spaces. So like I I don't wanna, you know, speak out of terms from that standpoint, but on the flip side, I'm just like, ⁓ like I never would have thought like this had like any type of negative connotation with it. But I do think that American Eagle and Sydney Sweeney knew that there could be, you know, some sort of backlash with it because they ran with it. You know, a lot of times when a company genuinely does not think about something, they will pull it. They'll be like, you know what, you're right. Like, We messed up. They don't do that with this, you know, with this ad campaign. And, you know, we could talk about expense and everything. American Eagle has enough money that they can swallow the expense, right? So, like, they obviously knew that was going to create some type of controversy. And so, like, I think that's part of the reason why we see so much noise around Sydney Sweeney is because she is an expert at like courting controversy. And I think it's like fascinating, like fabulous and fascinating. I'm like, you go girl, you you game the system. Yeah, I agree. And I I loved her response. There's this I'm sure you're familiar with the interview, but she's asked a question by this reporter with kind of a smug look on her face. And she's like, Yeah, I just wanted to give you the opportunity to kind of explain yourself about the whole controversy. And Sydney Sweet was like, Nah, nah I'm good. Like if I have something to say, you'll you'll hear it from me. ⁓ and I just ⁓ thought that was great. And I think that's also part, she's a genius at just playing into the controversy. And I think any brand that like as you say can afford it and also ⁓ knows its audience well enough that the backlash can work in their favor. Obviously, no f it's not going to work for every brand, but predominantly the the brands that have a more more male audience or or at least not a a a super ⁓ aggressive feminist audience. It's it's pretty much ⁓ always a good move to to put Sweeney in your commercial because you're going to get some eyeballs. That's that's for sure. one thing I wanted to touch on ⁓ to to get your opinion on also is ⁓ I recently listened to Modern Wisdom ⁓ with ⁓ Chris Williamson and I forgot the the name of the guest but ⁓ they've looked at this from a more well ev evolutionary psychology lens so so the psychology behind why some women tend to have these negative feelings towards Sidney Sweeney and and what the biological reasons could be. Very interesting episode and I'd I'd highly recommend listening to it if you haven't. But they they also make the comparison between Sabrina Carpenter, for example, which is ⁓ who is someone that is also dressing qu quite sexy quite often. ⁓ I believe she even has A picture that she's on her knees and then a a guy grabs her by the hairs. I I thought that was some sort of album cover, or or she posted it on Instagram. I believe s ⁓ many of the song lyrics ⁓ that she has are also ⁓ about men, not necessarily in in a very ⁓ aggressive feminist way, if you will. So I just wanted to get your your take on why. Doesn't a girl like Sabrina Carpenter seem to get as much of the same backlash as Sydney Sweeney does? yeah. So I will say in American spaces, I see a ton of hatred towards Sabrina Carpenter. But, you know, again, my algorithm knows what's going to annoy me. ⁓ but you know, I I do think though. I I actually like this point because one thing I do think that differentiates the two of them is I saw it was a subsec article. I can't tell you who wrote it, but it was someone who was going on about how much they enjoyed Sabrina Carpenter and they were like, yeah, like all of her imagery is bad, but like at least she owns it, right? And ⁓ I do think that that is a very stark difference than what we see with Taylor or with Taylor Swift, gosh. With Sydney Sweeney. ⁓ there is a very There's a very stark difference between how, you know, they're they're handled. ⁓ from from that standpoint. Like so like a lot of women will sit there and say, you know, like I saw someone today call her slimy Sabrina because they're mad she was cast as Ginger Rogers. So I'm kind of like keeping that in the back of my mind right now. ⁓ But like their issue more so lies in that like children can go to her concerts. ⁓ and the obviously these women aren't looking at like, you know, there there's nothing with children beyond like, do I think that do think this is appropriate for my child to watch? Whereas with s you know, ⁓ Sydney Sweeney, like there's almost a competition aspect, right? Like she is not trying to appeal to children at all. There is nothing that you can criticize her, you know, for from the a familial standpoint. She's very much centering herself within like this grown adult male sphere, right? ⁓ and so I I do think, you know, people use the excuse of chill, I guess is the best way to put it. People use the excuse of children to criticize Sabrina Carpenter over here in the USA. ⁓ but like with Sweeney, it's just like, well, she's gross because she likes men and she relishes the fact that she likes men. So ⁓ but yeah, like it I think it's just different forms of criticism, but I don't know. We'll we'll see what happens with with Sabrina Carpenter. Cause like you said, I mean, some of her imagery can like be considered just as lewd as what Sweeney's doing. But I guess the main difference too is is that Carpenter is always dressed, whereas Sydney Sweeney, you know, like is concealing parts of her body with sports balls. ⁓ so I I do think, you know. I don't know. American culture is very weird. Yeah. I guess that's the best way to put it. Yeah, I guess I mean ⁓ most of the time she she might be dressed, but I've I've seen some like do doing she she has some some promiscuous ⁓ outfits and dances on on stage as well. I'm not sure whether I would want my children to to go to such a show if if I had children. I don't I don't have children yet, but ⁓ it's it's interesting. But we've discussed many, many things and I I thought It's been it's been fascinating so far. Is there anything we haven't touched on that you think is still relevant for the for the discussion today? No, because you and I can't see into the future. But I am just very fascinated on ⁓ where this is going to go. Like I mean, personally, like just as somebody who, you know, studies these cultural shifts, I think that Sydney Sweeney is probably going to solidify herself. I don't see her going anywhere in the next five to ten years unless she has like a scandal she can't recover from. You know, of course I can't control where people are going. But if she stays, you know, within this path. ⁓ I I don't see her going anywhere anytime soon. Marilyn Monroe, you know, didn't go anywhere. She was always heavily reported on, even, you know, the when her movies flopped, people still wanted to know about her personal life and what she was doing. So I think ⁓ a lot of this criticism we see is very old school. I don't think it matches with where society as a whole is right now, especially as Gen Z comes up, you know, and Gen Z is obviously much more like cancel culture stupid, you know, like this is just as nine. You guys need to focus on, you know, stuff that's actually important, right? ⁓ And so I do think the this backlash it's just noise. I don't think it's going to have any real effect on Sweeney for the foreseeable future. But I mean guess could come back in ten years and see like if our predictions are right, right? Like we we can we can figure that out. Yeah, that's that seems like ⁓ that seems like a good idea. Like perhaps she will turn into some some ⁓ n newer or or or different version of Pamela Anderson, right? Because Pamela Anderson is also an example of someone who actively used her looks to to earn money, to to become famous, ⁓ highly successful, but now that she is a bit more mature, I believe she's often also seen by by many women as someone who is aging gracefully and is is generally a a very positive example of what ⁓ what a w woman of her age should be. So perhaps we can see that happen ⁓ with ⁓ Sweeney too. But ⁓ for that we will have to wait quite a quite a few years to see ⁓ if that will be true. where where can people go if they want to keep up with ⁓ your your Substack for example and perhaps your your website and and any other of your work that we ⁓ can can see the the the film that you've collaborated on and and your books of course. Well well you made me sound so interesting. ⁓ so ⁓ my subsex my subsex the constructive glamour project ⁓ you can go on there I post once a week just because I'm in school and that's all I can mentally handle posting right now. ⁓ but it's kind of like Everything's on there. I mean, I I focus a lot on cultural criticism, but I also do film history, I do beauty history. So it's kind of a hodgepodge of just like these are the things that April likes. ⁓ my website is classicblondes.com. I've had for years. That's more so though, deep dives into things with Marilyn Rowe and Jane Mansfield primarily because they're my two research interests. and then on Instagram, I'm under Classic Hollywood Women. That one's easy enough because you don't have to read, you know, like my ten page breakdowns of things that matter a lot to me, right? Like it's just, you know, quick digestible content. ⁓ but it still has a little bit of like historical grounding in it. ⁓ so yeah, those are probably the the three best ways to do it. And then yeah, I you can you can buy my books if you wanna buy my books. If you wanna read about Marilyn Monroe, ⁓ that one is Marilyn Day in Life. And then the Jane Mansfield book is publicity, and then I also just recently was included in ⁓ the new Encounters with Marilyn Monroe book. ⁓ and so I wrote a chapter on Marilyn Monroe's beauty phenomenon and basically how we have reduced her to a caricature that we all copy. Well there's much to much to find. I'll make sure to put everything in the show notes. ⁓ for now I wanna thank you. This was ⁓ very, very fun. Thank you so much. You were so knowledgeable about everything regarding Marilyn Monroe and the entire history. And yeah, I had a great time. It was really fascinating. So thank you. Well, thank you. I had a wonderful time too. ⁓ like you say, it made me sound very smart. I'm really not, but I do appreciate it. ⁓ and hopefully we can do this again if you ever need like Merrill Monroe content.