Latest / Activating Sustainability / Activating Sustainability | Ep 65: PPWR

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Activating Sustainability | Ep 65: PPWR · Activating Sustainability

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Foreign.
• 0:08
  Speaker B: Welcome to Activating Sustainability, the Anthesis podcast. I'm your host, Chris Peterson. With the proliferation of packaging regulations and the advancement of ppwr, the packaging and packaging waste regulation, we thought it was a great opportunity to pull in a couple of our experts to really explore what does this mean for those operating in Europe as well as those globally, and what are some lessons we can be learning and responding and capturing value from it. Joining me today are Marwan Elsafi and Hannah Worthington. Thanks so much for joining the podcast.
• 0:38
  Speaker C: Thank you for having us.
• 0:40
  Speaker A: So good to be here.
• 0:41
  Speaker B: Great. So I've had the pleasure of meeting both of you and learning a little bit, but maybe for the listeners, could you provide just a kind of quick overview of your background and kind of the perspectives you bring to this call?
• 0:52
  Speaker A: Hi, everybody. My name is Hannah. I'm one of the PPWR nerds here at Anthesis. I have five years now as a packaging consultant, focusing mostly on regulation and technical packaging, everything in technical packaging.
• 1:06
  Speaker C: And I'm Marwan Alfaifi, associate director here at Anthesis and I lead the global packaging solutions for Anthesis. So with my team, we support clients with anything to do with packaging, packaging strategy and compliance, like packaging and packaging waste regulation, ppwr. Now, before joining Anthesis and why this is relevant for me is 20 years I was working in various packaging roles. So this is an exciting time for sure.
• 1:27
  Speaker B: Fantastic. Well, thank you both so much for joining and bringing your perspectives. Just to start, we'd love to hear what is ppwr new acronym coming into our acronym soup? And why is everyone suddenly talking about it?
• 1:41
  Speaker A: So, yeah, so PPWR and the Packaging and Packaging Waste Regulation is a new piece of regulation that was live last year from February and has a transition period that ends in August this year. It's replacing an old directive from the 1990et, and the goal of it is to harmonize legislation for packaging across the eu because packaging was identified as one of the key blockers for the single market. It also aims to increase things like resource security because we are not wasting as much, say, plastic or finite materials. And the goal is essentially to bring the bar up for every country in Europe. So if you're a multinational or an international company, you're doing the same thing in every market rather than historically. For example, France has been very progressed, and maybe if you're in Romania, you're less progressed. So you can do the same thing now in every country.
• 2:26
  Speaker B: Great. And what were some of the drivers behind putting this in place beyond the kind of consolidation and leveling the playing Field, if you will.
• 2:35
  Speaker A: Yeah. So PPWR sits within the wide circular economy legislation in place for Europe. So it will sit also in alongside the Circular Economy Action Plan that is coming in in Q3 later on this year. So the goal of it is to reduce waste across Europe because waste management is quite a costly part of government budgets and now is being moved on to brands to pay for, but also to make sure that the resources we do have are being used properly and in the best place. So those are key goals of reducing packaging and, well, packaging waste as well.
• 3:08
  Speaker B: Great. And it feels like so many of the packaging language has been this kind of incremental shift. We want you to do it a little bit better or incorporate this logo into the waste channel. So, so curious, is this more of that, is this something fundamentally different? How are you and clients seeing that?
• 3:28
  Speaker A: Yeah, so it's a lot less bitty than previous legislation. So under the old Packaging and Packaging Waste Directive, every country could do something slightly different to try and meet the overall objectives. But with this regulation, every country has to do the same thing. And if they want to do something different, there's quite an extensive process they have to go to to prove why that is necessary so that bittiness will hopefully be joined up. It has reporting and non reporting requirements, which some countries did have, some countries didn't have previously. So the first half of it is around packaging design and designing packaging to be better and the minimum possible, but then also making sure that everybody is reporting the same data so that they can accurately track the progress that's being made. And if there are going to be problems in the long term, for example, with funding for infrastructure, they then know how much infrastructure they need to build to handle the packaging volumes that are going onto the market to make sure that everything is recycled rather than sent to landfill or maybe energy from waste.
• 4:24
  Speaker C: Yeah. And Chris, if we take a step back, what PPWR is asking is what everybody actually wants. You want harmonized rules across all of Europe, because from a manufacturing point of view, if you work in supply chain, the last thing you want is to have different rules for different countries and you are having to design differently. That that is not efficient, that's counterintuitive. We all want to reduce waste, we all want to reduce complexity. So. And that's what PPWR is telling you to do. To be honest, it's what we've been asking for. And when we start looking at it as something that is a shift, a mind change from seeing it as a compliance to seeing it, the benefits of it the opportunity, of course there is the pain that comes with it. Absolutely. But we all want clear data. We all want data, we all want to know what's on the market, what we're buying, what we're selling, and that's what really PPWR is doing.
• 5:15
  Speaker A: Just to add to that, it's also, there's nothing new in ppwr. We've seen through all of these different national regulations, different levers being used to try and meet the same objective. All PPWR is doing is bringing the levers that worked the best up so that everybody uses those same levers. So things like recyclability, which is one of the biggest requirements that Everybody's panicking for 2030, we're expecting guidance imminently on that, but it will use the guidance we already have, just slightly updated to be fit for the future. So there's nothing big, scary or surprising that came out of ppwr and compared to the initial draft, it's incredibly watered down. So it's not like CSRD where it might get gutted at the very last hurdle. It's already in place and being progressed.
• 5:58
  Speaker B: Yeah. It certainly feels like there's been a lot of lessons from the omnibusing experience around that. I think this gives us really good perspective from the outside in and the drivers for regulation. I'd be really interested to hear. Mario, I'm picking up on your point of digging a little bit deeper on the user experience of that. As a packaging expert within an organization, as a sustainability team within an organization, how does this show up for you? Thinking about the opportunity that it creates, some of the challenges and trying to navigate. Is this a tweak? Is this something fundamentally different? How does this fit with the kind of global change in regulations that we've been seeing, et cetera, et cetera.
• 6:38
  Speaker C: So the one thing about PPWR that I always say to clients is it's not a one man job. This is a lot of the times you think, oh, this sits with packaging. Actually, in my last role, I remember this landed at my desk and I was leading the packaging team and I went to the regulatory team and they said, we only deal with reach. This is a packaging problem. I went to the global sustainable team and they said, this is a European legislation, we are looking at global. So I went to my stakeholders and I said, this is a team effort. We need everybody, we need procurement, we need regulatory, we need packaging. So as a packaging manager, when packaging people look at this, they should see this as an opportunity. This is our chance to actually have a seat on the Stakeholder table. This is our chance to drive packaging as a strategic lever. Companies who are preparing, prepared, proactive will gain market share. This is a chance to show your innovation whilst designing for sustainability. But there's also obviously you need to show that you are adding value to the business. You're creating value because you are going to have to invest at some stage. So let's look at what PPWR is actually asking you to do. Reduce complexity, remove nasty materials, nasty plastics, simplify your portfolio. If you do this, you're actually creating value. You are removing cost that is not needed. You are being more efficient on the line because you're using more materials for longer time. You're also helping reduce the cost by removing complexity. Then when you're looking at the other aspects of ppwr, it's about recovery, reducing waste. When you're using more materials, you're driving more recyclable material. Therefore we're doing more recycling. If you think about reuse, if you think about all of the aspects of ppwr, the benefits that it's bringing, there is a huge opportunity to create value. You can assess your portfolio and decide what do you want to stay with, what is the added cost, that added complexity to the design, etc. It's a great opportunity to work within a governance structure throughout the whole company. Bring marketing on the journey, bring procurement on the journey, supply chain, R and D. But what's really important is to have that governance.
• 8:46
  Speaker B: Marwan, going back to your previous role, how do you make that case internally? What were the things that really resonated internally and how did you put some numbers to those?
• 8:57
  Speaker C: First and foremost, it is a compliance. So that's your starting point. And compliance should only be the starting point. It's the baseline you need to be compliant. That's the start of your discussion. But how do you build that business case is by really understanding your portfolio, understanding the complexity, looking at your data, highlighting the data gaps and then going to the business and saying, if we don't address this, potentially we have market restriction, we cannot operate in the markets. If we don't address this, there could be penalties. However, if we address this, here's the benefits that I can bring you. This is how you build your business case. You need to look at the overall holistic picture of ppwr, not just one by one. You need to think of the future and move back. Actually, we know that the August 2026 deadline is coming and the least that you can do right now is really understand your data, really prepare for that. But that should be your benchpoint. It's a benchmark for you to start the rest and start that conversation and discussion.
• 9:56
  Speaker B: And Hannah, I know you've spoken to the fact that this is almost raising the floor for everybody and that there's this tension between those who have not been at the leading edge versus those that now this is just common practice. So curious if maybe you can speak a little bit to that benchmarking against peers in the space and some of the maybe challenges or again reinforcing that case for action.
• 10:17
  Speaker A: Absolutely. It's actually a really nice natural progression from what we've seen from voluntary action previously. So a lot of businesses probably around 10 years ago now started setting targets to reduce, recycle, reuse, compost, whatever their packaging targets would be. A lot of that was driven by the plastic pact or like the Ellen MacArthur foundation and those targets were set globally by all kinds of businesses. And this was kind of in anticipation of these laws coming in or similar legislation which we're now seeing across the us we're seeing it over in apac. I've even seen a couple of proposals go through in African countries. So it's all over the world that this is being considered. PPWR is just kind of the first big scary one minus we'll leave California out of this for now. That's definitely a big, big scary one. But I think the difference of this is if you don't do your obligations previously it would be well, what's the fine for not complying with packaging laws? Because packaging roles are a bit rubbish and a bit weak and it was more about the product itself. Now if your packaging is non compliant you cannot place any packaged good on the market. So where packaging is such a really small weight and cost compared to the product itself is actually very disruptive if you're not taking it seriously. And for a lot of businesses it's hard I think for senior leaders who packaging to them is just a cost of doing business rather than opportunity for innovation or new like brand opportunities. It's hard for them to adjust to that new normal where packaging and products are on the same level playing field. We've seen examples from all over the world where businesses are doing really interesting things with packaging.
• 11:50
  Speaker B: Awesome. Building off of that, Hannah, I know you'd mentioned some of the like practices and other geographies and organizations and wonder if you just want to talk a little bit about the benchmarking as maybe that fits well into building business case.
• 12:04
  Speaker A: So earlier on I said that there's nothing new in PPWR and that it's been built on what has succeeded in other countries. As a result, we're seeing clients who maybe don't operate in those countries where the strictest requirements currently are struggle a little bit against the kind of incumbents from those nations. And one of the great examples that we always see, and the European Commission highlights either as a positive or maybe a problem to the single market, are France, Germany and Italy. So they've had legislation in place for quite innovative methods of dealing with packaging waste for a long time, be it reuse systems that are at scale in Germany for beverages or the French requirements for retail space to be put aside for bulk refill. Those requirements are some of the harder ones for businesses, especially retailers, to visualize. If you think of a market like Poland, which spent the past two or three years arguing back and forward on what legislation they wanted to introduce for packaging, the industry had quite a strong sway over what the government did. And as a result, they didn't do very much. But now they will have to. So maybe businesses who have only operated in nations where legislation hasn't been very strong in the past will have a lot of catching up to do compared to businesses that already are doing those because the national laws require it. And we've seen this actually cause a bit of a divergence in how seriously PPWR is being taken. So in France and Germany and Spain, we've seen a lot of businesses proactively investing in infrastructure or their own data systems to handle the requirements of ppwr. Where when we are having clients from other European nations, they may be asking us, well, what's the kind of minimum amount of compliance I need to do? Because the gap to compliance for them is much, much bigger. So international learnings are really important.
• 13:50
  Speaker B: Great. Yeah. And just fascinating to think about packaging, as you've said previously, Hannah, that sense of just being a cost to an organization, to being a competitive disadvantage in the market. Just one other thought coming from a North American mindset, curious how you see this fitting in these global proliferation of extended producer responsibility regulations, circularity, interest, this desire to retain materials within a specific market. And how does this all fit together?
• 14:19
  Speaker A: Yeah, I think extended producer responsibility is probably the best example to start this off with because the way it is implemented by value of what EPR actually is is always different in every jurisdiction because the goal is to raise the funds to handle the waste in those areas. And across different countries or even different states, people are buying different things. You know, if you're in California, you're going to buy more sunscreen than if you're in Oregon, let's say, like it's going to have different pressures on the market for the kinds of packaging that's available. So those are hard for businesses to adapt to. They're the general same principle of you have to report your data and pay a fee, but the fees might be different depending on how advanced the infrastructure is for ppwr. Already every country in Europe has an extended producer responsibility system legislated for. They have different reporting deadlines and eventually it will all be harmonized and nice and brought together. But the goal of that is to fund infrastructure to get to a 2035 target of all packaging being recycled at scale. So if it's recyclable, if it needs to be placed on the market, it needs to be recyclable and it has to have somewhere to go, which I think in the past couple of months as well, like the geopolitical situations with this ongoing oil crisis will impact plastic. Plastic is a finite resource. Coming out of those refineries that are currently being blockaded impacted whatever word we want to use for that. So having a secure source of the materials that give people essential goods like food is really, really important and getting more important. I think we'll also see the secondary market for plastics doing pretty well because of a legislation like this, but B, because we'll need to reuse materials, but also it'll unlock significant opportunity for innovation. So there are provisions in PPWR for innovative packaging, so not stifling innovation and also for bio based alternatives to finite goods where we can maybe use more renewable resources. And with the food systems we have and the amount of agricultural waste that can be repurposed, it's a really exciting opportunity. And we're seeing a lot of food and beverage brands as they move towards more regenerative agriculture processes, have a look at how they can use that waste with something cool like packaging. And that is where the packaging nerds get very excited.
• 16:30
  Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, I bet. Yeah. Fascinating to see how this can force that reflection. Just to take it a step back, I'd be curious to hear, are there elements that you see consistently across all regulations or for organizations that are getting started on this or looking to evolve, there are fundamental building blocks. So Hannah, you had mentioned data as one of those and are there others or approaches to that?
• 16:54
  Speaker A: Yeah. So because all the regulation is trying to tackle the same problem, which is production of a lot of single use materials with nowhere to go. Things like recyclability is also a very common thread that we see through all of these Pieces of legislation and laws around recycling have been in place in many for decades. They're just getting strengthened now to bring them up to speed with the current rate of development of infrastructure. So things like chemical recycling weren't really that viable even a couple of years ago. And we're seeing different countries build different infrastructure to handle that. But generally what is state of the art infrastructure in one country will likely be taken up in another country because if it's economically viable, it makes sense to do so. Recyclability is a real key point. Generally the virgin plastic or virgin material reduction targets. So reducing things, lightweighting things, minimization are all really key. Some regulations like PPWR legislate for that directly, others do it indirectly through financial mechanisms like higher extended producer responsibility fees or fees based on weight and then data I think is the other key part of this. Because in countries where governments are responsible for building infrastructure, they need to know what they need to build. And I think that is the same world over that you can't manage what you can't measure. And if you don't know what packaging is on the market, how can you prepare to recycle it just to add to that?
• 18:19
  Speaker C: PPWR is telling you again, remove complexity, increase recovery, increase recyclability. Hannah touched on it. Epr, the eco modulation and the current calculations is about complexity, waste, how much waste you're producing, etc. So if you address one, you address the other. Single use plastic. Again, let's talk about plastic tax. What plastic tax? You're charged for the amount of tax that you use unless you put a per tonnage, unless you have a minimum amount of recycled content. Correct. If you apply ppwr, you are exempt from plastic, from packaging plastic tax in those European countries that have it. So actually applying one does apply to the rest. And for the manufacturers, operators, global companies, if you're shipping into Europe, whether you place in Europe or not, you're impacted. So you really need to look at it.
• 19:08
  Speaker B: So if somebody's looking to shift from a whack a mole approach to meeting packaging regulations to this is the one they were going to align to and then cascade responses out more widely.
• 19:21
  Speaker A: I think so yes, there obviously will be as SB54 in California develops, I imagine there'll be parts of that that are more stringent just by virtue of American recycling infrastructure. Maybe not being as developed as some European countries currently have, but even then we see such diversity in Europe, we'll see where SB54 lands. And I think another part of this also is the elephant in the room of PFAs. So we know that's being looked at in America, we know it's been legislated for in ppwr and we know around the world that is something that is raising its head as the next big risk to human health. So I think that is something where, if you're complying with, say the PFAS limits at ppwr, your risk when these pieces of legislation come in across the world is significantly reduced because they're starting with maybe the highest risk categories. So, like Gore Tex waterproof jackets, Teflon pans, that kind of thing. But food contact packaging is a serious risk. If you're putting something oily and greasy in a packaging item with PFAS in it, it's not great. So it'll be interesting to see how regulators around the world handle that. But I would say, yeah, PPWR in terms of how comprehensive it is and the data requirements and the organizational change it forces a business to make in terms of getting their ducks in a row to collect packaging data, properly evidence the claims that they're making, and make sure their suppliers are doing what they're contractually obliged to do. I think it is the gold standard.
• 20:50
  Speaker B: And then maybe just shift a little bit. I know Marwan, yourself and the team have been hosting a number of in person explorations of PPWR and helping kind of our community to really get ready for this. And I'm curious, what are some of the biggest questions or worries that you're hearing through those forums?
• 21:08
  Speaker C: It's the lack of methodology of how to address some of the legislation. Right. So we're still waiting for more information on how to, you know, look at substantiation for recycled content, how do you measure the methodology for minimization, et cetera, et cetera. Labeling has just come out now finally, and we know it will be done by August. So it's a lack of clarity. Probably the biggest concern, what you can do is really focus on what you can control. So when my clients are telling me I'm worried about the methodology, I was like, first, let's take a step back, look at your data before you even think about methodology. There are guidelines out there. There are other guidelines that are already giving you that direction. We are not expecting the, the outcome, the final outcome of anything to be too different, too much pivoting. So these can give you the direction that you need to head in. But before you start thinking about that, you really need to just focus on what you control, get your own house in order to look at your data, understand which obligations you need to focus on and then start that prioritization. There's a clear timeline for a reason and there's entry points and you need to start with, with August 26th and then move forward and then, you know, plan it. You need to have a strategy. That's how you address those concerns.
• 22:26
  Speaker B: When you talk about timelines, what is the kind of timeline that shows up for an organization? Right, Is this just a we'll get started in July, we'll be ready by August, we're good to go, or is this a longer journey and what does the timing of that journey generally look like?
• 22:43
  Speaker C: Everybody that is listening to this will know how difficult it is to get accurate and available data. It takes time. So that's why we've had some of our clients who have been proactive and asking about it starting from last year. We're now doing a lot of work right now really understanding the data and collecting that data. The relationship with your supplier is going to be absolutely essential in this. That's why I said in the beginning, procurement are important because usually they are the ones dealing with the supplier, because nobody expects a brand owners to have all the data. There's a lot of contract manufacturing, there's a lot of outsourcing, etc. But as the brand owner and the manufacturer, in the definition of ppwr, you are responsible to hold the declaration of conformity, but you need to hold your suppliers accountable to share that data. So the timeline is, you know, it takes a few months to get that data and then everybody knows that. If you want to look at a change, you're looking at 12 to 18 months. This is why the legislations have given you that timeline. It's because they know it takes time. So when we say start now, it's not just to scare people, it's the reality. It takes time. Yeah.
• 23:50
  Speaker B: Collecting data from suppliers in months sounds like a miracle in my engagement.
• 23:56
  Speaker A: Just want to step in with some reassurance as well. For those listening who are in the uk, you might remember the exciting time that was when UK plastic packaging tax was introduced and at the 11th hour the requirements changed. That's not a thing for PPWR. There is a set gap between when the guidance comes out and when you need to do something with that guidance. And if the guidance comes out late, the deadline gets pushed back, it won't be that. That bit gets sort of eaten up and eaten up and then all of a sudden you've got three months to do something. If in the legislation you have two years to do Something you will have two years from the moment that guidance is released. So that's something that we get asked a lot by clients. It's like, what do we do if it comes late? And it's like just wait. There's a lot of assumptions you can make in the meantime which prepare you for that. Especially around things like recyclability and minimization. It's quite intuitive what we'll need to change. It's just how you change it that we're waiting to understand.
• 24:52
  Speaker B: And so, just so that I understand that, is that kind of like an 8020 rule of like 80% we've got a really high level of confidence in and enough to act upon. And then there's the 20% that you can wait on making some of those like nuanced decisions. Is that how that shows up?
• 25:09
  Speaker A: I think so, yes. For pretty much all of the key requirements there is enough to get going on now. There may be some problem packs which need more specified guidance coming through and flexibles. I think from Marlon's point earlier is one of those where it's a little bit unclear. We can follow the guidance that's already out there, especially on recyclability. There is the rest of class guidelines are the ones that are being used to develop the official standard. They're not going to reinvent the wheel when we already have industry approved and industry informed standards out there. So those are your kind of 80%. And then the last 20% is like, well, how do we evidence this? But if you've already done the work and you're building that technical evidence as you go, it's just retrofitting that evidence to fit into the doc that you need to prepare rather than rewriting everything, hopefully. Great.
• 25:57
  Speaker B: And I know we're starting to come up on time, but I'd love to hear from each of you as you look out into the market, what really separates those companies that are doing this well today versus those who are maybe struggling or are about to start to really struggle.
• 26:12
  Speaker A: See, who are doing the best are the ones who have somebody in the C suite who has realized how big of a threat this is. So we work with a lot of big international companies that have billions of euros dollars, pounds worth of sales into the EU. Some of them have 60, 70% of their packaging that is currently not even technically recyclable. So there isn't a plant within Europe that would take that packaging. They have four years to change packaging for 60% of their SKUs. That is not a lot of time to do it and they have to collect all the data, do PFAS testing. If you have 10,000 SKUs in your product catalog, that is a lot of work to do. And without the right resource, you're struggling. But we have seen brands who have escalated this to senior leadership in time and got resource to prepare the declarations of conformity for August. And as a result, they are actively discovering where their hotspots are. So I would say an ally in the C suite is always very nice to have.
• 27:06
  Speaker C: I think regardless of the size of the company, those that are being proactive, those that have realized that this is definitely coming right and started this planning and really getting their own house in order and focusing on what they control are the ones that are going to gain that market share, but also actually avoid losses. Because what will happen is when you start panicking, you make decisions that will cost you more than the time that you would have spent to prepare for it.
• 27:37
  Speaker B: Great. So many in our broader sustainability field are feeling overwhelmed, somewhat confused, struggling to figure out, like, where to take that first step. And so what would be the first practical steps you would advise people to take in this space? They're very kind of tactical and tangible and executable.
• 27:55
  Speaker C: The most important thing you need to do is understand your portfolio because different portfolios have different complexities. Let me give you a quick examples. You could be an FMCG company that has a pharma sector versus a vitamin sector versus an oral health sector. And you use packaging across that. We know that contact material. So your primary packaging that is in contact with the product for the pharma has an exemption. However, the classification of what medicine is versus a vitamin in each company is different. So you need to actually align on that because you could be thinking that you're exempt, but your vitamins are not. Right. So understanding your data and understanding your portfolio and understanding your data gaps is definitely the best thing that you could do right now. And the thing that you should be focusing on that will help you build the doc declaration of conformity and that will help you plan for the future.
• 28:45
  Speaker A: I would argue that you even need to take one step further than back, further back than that and work out, are you an obligated manufacturer or not? Because if you wake up on the 12th of August 2026 and you are an obligated manufacturer and you didn't know that, that will not be a very happy morning for you because there's a lot of technical documentation you need to prepare. So before working out which part of your portfolio is in or out of scope. Work out what you need to do versus what falls on your suppliers versus what falls on whoever you're selling your goods to. Because that'll help you put at least a little bit of a plan in place for preparing what's your most urgent priority.
• 29:26
  Speaker B: So, just before we wrap up, any final thoughts or comments from either of you?
• 29:33
  Speaker A: Yes, I think one thing that I really want to encourage anyone listening to think about is the fact that if you start now, you have more options. And if you bury your head in the sand, you will have to react, which might not be the best idea, because one thing that this legislation does that we haven't really seen at this scale before is it allows any member state to pull packaging from shelves if it's non compliant. The cost of non compliance is you cannot sell your goods into the eu. And if you're non compliant in one country, they have an obligation to report your non compliance to every other country that you operate in. So the fines will be duplicative if you're caught with your head in the sand. So it's good to act now. And even if it's just a baby step or just working out if you're a manufacturer, which bits of packaging might be most impacted, any progress is good progress.
• 30:27
  Speaker B: Great. Amara, any final thoughts from you, including some of the work that you and the team are doing in terms of really trying to support our community and understanding and navigating this moment?
• 30:38
  Speaker C: Yeah. My final thought is if you haven't started, don't be alarmed. Just start. Start thinking about it. Because at the end of the day, what the regulators want to see, people being proactive and preparing. You might not be ready 100% by August, but they want to see that you have thought about it, you have prepared for it. The worst thing that you can say is don't know or my supplier didn't give me that does not count anymore. And that will not be seen favorably. We have been working with international retailers, International coffee brands, international FMCGs, really helping them understand how PPWR impact them, where their obligation stands, looking at their data, looking at the governance structures, looking at the complexity of the supply chain, the complexity of their operations within franchisees, licenses, et cetera. We're always happy to have that conversation. We see this as a journey for us, a collaborative journey with our clients.
• 31:31
  Speaker B: Fantastic. Yeah. And I know from engaging with both of you, that's a unique and incredibly valuable insight that you all can bring to the table. So thank you all so much for joining us today. Really appreciate it.
• 31:43
  Speaker A: Thank you for having us.
• 31:44
  Speaker C: Thank you.
• 31:44
  Speaker B: Thank you for having us and thank you for listening. Please be sure to check out the resources linked in the show notes as well as valuable insights about multiple packaging regulations both in the eu, North America and globally that you can be resourcing and building off of. Thanks again for listening and we look forward to connecting with you again soon.