Latest / Gimbal Podcast / Johnny Harris’ Ex-Producer Explains How Journalism is Completely Different Now

Transcript

Johnny Harris’ Ex-Producer Explains How Journalism is Completely Different Now · Gimbal Podcast

• 0:00
  People will watch a 50-minute video if you've earned that 50 minutes.
• 0:04
  How long for a standard video would it be from start to finish?
• 0:08
  I think people are very surprised to hear this.
• 0:10
  Johnny's videos shoot in like...
• 0:14
  Taryn, thank you so much for joining the show.
• 0:17
  I'm really interested in learning about your time working with Johnny Harris and also New Press, which is still kind of a relatively new endeavor.
• 0:25
  Johnny Harris and his wife is launched this collective of media organizations.
• 0:31
  And the first one was Search Party, which is hosted by this guy, Sam Ellis.
• 0:37
  Why did New Press need to exist?
• 0:40
  People are more and more interested, I think, in hearing a specific perspective, and they are not dictating the editorial of their individual creators' content channels.
• 0:51
  I'm curious, like, how the idea of New Press turned into something like, yeah, okay, we should make this, and then what does it actually take to get that first channel that's not hosted by Johnny live?
• 1:03
  With NewPress, as we started to build out what that looked like as a collective rather than just Johnny's channel, a huge part of that is how you actually take something that works for one creator and turn it into a larger system that can then be adapted, applied for future creators at scale to sort of jumpstart that process so that everyone's not sort of starting from zero, as it were.
• 1:28
  Yeah.
• 1:28
  Johnny was very allergic to the idea of process to begin with.
• 1:35
  And I think that's because so many creators, their only experience with somebody coming in and trying to operationalize something or provide structure is to restrict them historically in legacy media.
• 1:48
  It's a huge part of the reason why they decided to be independent creators in the first place, is to have so much more of their own ability to determine how they're working.
• 1:58
  a system should enable more creation rather than restrict it.
• 2:04
  Once we sort of unlocked that formula, it became really clear sort of the goldmine of that and how we can use that to help other creators launch their channels.
• 2:14
  And, you know, that's what I'm now doing with the School for Moral Ambition and with Rutger Bregman.
• 2:19
  So it's like very exciting to see that this works not just for New Press, it works, you know, for creators across the board specifically.
• 2:27
  You built out these operations for the Johnny Harris team, making sure that everything was good, that people were able to create content effectively at high quality without burning out.
• 2:37
  Then Sam becomes part of the conversation.
• 2:40
  Did Sam approach Johnny?
• 2:42
  Did Johnny know Sam?
• 2:44
  How did those early conversations about maybe doing a second channel begin?
• 2:48
  Johnny and Sam did know each other already from their overlap in the Vox days.
• 2:53
  So I think it was just something that came about quite naturally in the course of their regular conversation and correspondence.
• 3:02
  You know, Johnny was building his channel very quickly and people were noticing and a lot of people thought, hey, that looks great.
• 3:11
  And a lot of creators want to focus on, you know, the bits that they love.
• 3:16
  In order to do that, what New Press is offering to those creators is the production and operational structure to allow them to focus on just that, to focus on their journalism, to focus on their craft.
• 3:31
  And each of the creators within New Press has like a specific subset of the process that they enjoy most.
• 3:38
  And so designing the process to fit for that.
• 3:40
  So for Sam, it's animation.
• 3:42
  And for Christoph, it's edit.
• 3:43
  And allowing them both time within the process to do that alongside the editors and animators that we have on the projects is really important.
• 3:51
  So I think that the conversation between Sam and...
• 3:53
  And Johnny and Iz was mostly around the system, the structure, the talent to help support you.
• 4:01
  Because by that point, we had already built out quite a robust team around Johnny's channel alone.
• 4:06
  There was a point at which we were producing like 36 videos a year.
• 4:10
  Exceptionally high quality.
• 4:12
  The output from your team has been incredible.
• 4:14
  Johnny and Iz have both talked about this publicly, but we built out the Bible, which contains masses and masses of references, examples, explanations of the terms that we use, because New Press has a very specific kind of language that is outside of maybe traditional production-speak.
• 4:33
  So it makes a lot of sense for people like Sam or the second channel, which is run by Christoph.
• 4:39
  You know, the value prop for them joining NewPress is obvious.
• 4:43
  You get these incredible systems that have been rigorously tested for years on end, many made by you.
• 4:49
  From what it sounds like, the team crosses over and cross pollinates as well.
• 4:53
  Yeah, so it's gone through a lot of variations.
• 4:56
  I always said when we were building out systems and processes that this is the V1, and my hope is that there's a V20 and 30 and 40.
• 5:06
  Like, we're constantly adjusting and adapting this so that it evolves with.
• 5:11
  our needs, as well as the content type that we're making has shifted over time.
• 5:17
  Originally, we had a fairly dedicated team per creator, per show, when it came to post-production.
• 5:26
  So in terms of an editor, an animator, it was also our composer, Tom Fox, being able to come through and give
• 5:36
  music for each channel but primarily it was coming from the production management systems those templates creating timelines kind of hand-holding those deliveries between everyone and then of course the actual like management of the release of the channel so the marketing the thumbnails the uploads the prep so really what they were able to hone in and focus on is like
• 6:00
  What stories am I working on?
• 6:02
  Writing those stories to the best of their ability, because they were able to focus in on that.
• 6:08
  Filming it, and then sort of creatively overseeing the post-production, but not necessarily having to manage the post-production, if that makes sense.
• 6:17
  And then when the video comes to our pub cut, our final cut, they kind of step away and it gets handed off and it releases into the world on its own from from their perspective, as it were.
• 6:28
  Now, that has changed the sort of buckets of team being shared versus being specifically assigned.
• 6:36
  Right now, Johnny's changing what he's doing.
• 6:39
  doing in terms of his content.
• 6:41
  He's working on a new show that is being released this year, and he's kind of honing in on a specific style and format that he's going to do repeatedly with the human element.
• 6:51
  Because of that, the team that they're using has changed and they're being utilized differently.
• 6:55
  They're being resourced across to other creators and other channels, which is exciting because it allows them to experiment differently.
• 7:01
  with some other things as well and yeah i mean i stepped out from new press now at the end of may so anything that's happened since i'm not so sure um is this all happening like in person in some like in-person headquarters or is everything happening remote
• 7:21
  So it's crazy.
• 7:25
  When it started, it was Johnny and his living in their parents' basement that had been turned into a recording studio.
• 7:33
  And so the majority of the team was not working in a headquarters.
• 7:37
  The majority of the team was spread out all over the place.
• 7:41
  And then as the team started to grow more and more, we started to identify more and more DC-based team members who are working in person.
• 7:48
  But pretty soon, that one-bedroom studio apartment slash office space slash recording studio became full to the brim.
• 7:57
  And as we expanded, as we brought on Sam and Kristoff, who are based in New York, we then had...
• 8:02
  team split there.
• 8:03
  A lot of people who have their fingerprints all over New Press who are based in Europe and the UK.
• 8:10
  I'm in London.
• 8:11
  There's someone in Bristol.
• 8:12
  There is a group of team members in Copenhagen.
• 8:16
  There's someone in Spain.
• 8:17
  Like now, New Press is in a very different place than it was.
• 8:21
  And they are formalizing that a little bit more.
• 8:23
  So they have quite a large DC studio space and office now that is sort of their headquarters in DC.
• 8:30
  Could you please walk me through what a video looks like for Johnny's team from ideation to publishing?
• 8:38
  Each phase has been owned by a different sort of member of the team or a different department, as it were, being shepherded start to finish by when I was there myself.
• 8:49
  as well as is and johnny and over time moved johnny more and more out of post-production so that he could focus in on the pre-production and concentrate his time there there was an idea of a story there was a topic something really really high level i'm talking like a sentence or two
• 9:13
  Or sometimes it was Johnny just saying, I really want to go to Bhutan.
• 9:17
  Can we figure out something there?
• 9:18
  And other times it was based around a visual.
• 9:21
  Johnny found a really cool map and he wanted to expand upon that.
• 9:24
  So there's these ideas that are kind of floating out in the ether that might come from Johnny, that might come from Iz, and it might come from one of the story producers who can sort of pitch.
• 9:35
  Then they would kind of deliver that pitch, including Johnny.
• 9:39
  If he was the one coming up with this idea, he'd kind of deliver a pitch on it and he'd stress test that with is.
• 9:45
  We would assign one of the story producers or a research producer to kind of do a little initial digging and see if the story had legs, outline what that area might be if we were to move forward with a video, kind of key characters, things like that.
• 9:59
  At that point, it would move from a pitch, if it was greenlit, into an info-doc phase.
• 10:05
  Now, the greenlight phase would come from Johnny and Iz, and that would be delivered to me.
• 10:10
  And that would be sort of my greenlight to kind of kick everything off and start the machine moving.
• 10:16
  So that would come to me, it would have kind of the top line brief of what this story was.
• 10:22
  It would have an estimate of sort of how long we thought that story would be.
• 10:27
  It would be outlining what style of video it is, because over the years, Johnny developed sort of certain buckets.
• 10:36
  It might be a VO mapsplainer.
• 10:39
  And then it would also outline sort of an animation style.
• 10:42
  style or needs based on Johnny's idea.
• 10:46
  If we knew at that stage, sometimes we didn't.
• 10:49
  And then any stipulations around like this is being made for the election, so it needs to come out before the election, you know, that type of thing.
• 10:57
  So then they'd start research and info doc, which is sort of our research or reporting memo, our version of that.
• 11:03
  And then it would go through a few rounds of deliveries to Johnny to review, to give notes, to ask further questions, to say, this is what interests me.
• 11:11
  Go dig more on that.
• 11:12
  And then he'd come to his scripting phase.
• 11:16
  And during the scripting phase, he'd be writing alongside that story producer or research producer.
• 11:21
  He would be taking interviews with experts, doing outreach.
• 11:26
  He might be filming some of that process, depending on the video style, if he was taking you along the journey of the story.
• 11:34
  And then we would move into kind of our latter half of the pre-production phase.
• 11:39
  Once a script was locked in terms of our spoken words, we would then move into a phase where our visual producers, our senior video producers, our composer would come in and say,
• 11:52
  throwing in examples of specific archive, making a shot list, making a B-roll shot list, coming up with, hey, I think this would be really great if we actually made a game board or something like that.
• 12:05
  So that process would then go into sort of that phase where it began to be shaped for production.
• 12:12
  And then we'd move into production and we would shoot.
• 12:14
  And for the most,
• 12:15
  Large majority of the time that I was there, shoots were...
• 12:19
  I think people are very surprised to hear this.
• 12:21
  Everyone's been shocked whenever I've said it before.
• 12:24
  Johnny's videos shoot in like three or four hours.
• 12:28
  Wow.
• 12:29
  Maximum.
• 12:31
  And we might have multiple setups.
• 12:33
  So then we'll do like two hours one morning and...
• 12:36
  two hours another afternoon and, you know, things like that.
• 12:39
  But for quite a while there, especially when we were in that 36 videos a year phase, you had three or four hours to film that video and it better be filmed by the time it's done.
• 12:49
  We then move into sort of our production kickoff.
• 12:52
  phase.
• 12:53
  So the entire team would get together at that point.
• 12:56
  Anyone who touched on that specific project would all come together.
• 12:59
  They'd get the top line vision for the story, any notes on like what actually happened on the shoot, anything that fundamentally has changed from the script, et cetera.
• 13:10
  And then it moves into post-production and we had a
• 13:13
  Editing, animating, happening simultaneously.
• 13:16
  And our post-production process goes through, you know, a kind of really robust cut cycle, starting with the shame cut, which both Johnny and Iz and the current VP of production, John Lawrence, have kind of talked about everywhere.
• 13:30
  So there's more resources out there in terms of how we view a shame cut.
• 13:34
  I love the title, A Shame Cut.
• 13:36
  That's so funny.
• 13:36
  It's great.
• 13:37
  And I will say, as a senior production manager who's kind of handling all of the baton passes between everyone, I think historically you sort of have to pry an edit from an editor's hands.
• 13:51
  I've never met an editor who's not a perfectionist and wouldn't gladly take an extra six weeks if you gave it to them, right?
• 14:00
  And so you sort of have to pry it from them.
• 14:02
  And so in order to kind of encourage this, I guess, ethos around the work, we named it a shame cut to really make it clear to them, like the expectation is that this is something so scrappy.
• 14:18
  It is something you might feel ashamed to hand over, but you shouldn't because it's exactly what it needs to be.
• 14:24
  Because actually seeing it that early...
• 14:26
  is so important to understanding the shape of the story and the beats and the music needs and the animation needs.
• 14:36
  And you can course correct or give more specific direction much more effectively, I think, early on, and then allow people to do it right from the get-go rather than waiting for it.
• 14:47
  till it's in a more advanced state and then maybe needing to go back and sort of redo work that's already done.
• 14:52
  So shame cut, then we'd go to a rough cut, then we'd go to a fine cut, and then a pub cut.
• 14:58
  And that's sort of a standard Johnny talking head explainer.
• 15:02
  There's a totally different version of this process that takes place for field stories.
• 15:06
  There's a totally different version of this process that takes place for the VO map explainers, where it's a fully animated voiceover only story.
• 15:14
  And how long for a standard video would it be from start to finish?
• 15:18
  That could vary in terms of the pre-production process.
• 15:23
  There was a period of time which, you know, we discovered in the end is not so sustainable.
• 15:29
  But when we were in that 36 video year phase and we were kind of seeing what was possible and just pushing the limits...
• 15:37
  There was a period where essentially start to finish 10 weeks in total, maybe even less sometimes.
• 15:45
  I think our record was at one point we had 17 videos in production at one time.
• 15:50
  Oh my goodness.
• 15:51
  And that's across the channels, to be clear.
• 15:52
  That's not just Johnny.
• 15:54
  That's including Sam and Kristoff.
• 15:56
  And you were going to bed on time and like you weren't you weren't like overdoing it kind of thing.
• 16:00
  Or was this like a really big push?
• 16:02
  Okay.
• 16:05
  I would say no, I was not going to bed on time because I was in London.
• 16:09
  So I had a very interesting sleep schedule for a while there.
• 16:14
  But no, I mean, we figured out a way to make that work.
• 16:18
  And I think that we learned a lot of lessons from it and then refined it based on that.
• 16:24
  As our videos started to include more 3D animation, for example, we were like, this is no longer sustainable.
• 16:29
  We need to adjust it in this way.
• 16:31
  We need to move more time in the process.
• 16:34
  At the beginning, there needs to be more space for the 3D animator to start building this before the edit even starts.
• 16:41
  What is like the team that's required to carry out like 17 videos in parallel?
• 16:47
  Like how many editors or, you know, various positions do you have for that?
• 16:51
  At that point in time, the team was a little bit different than it is now.
• 16:55
  But at that point in time, while we were doing that phase, that era, we had roughly I'm like, let me count.
• 17:01
  Hold on.
• 17:04
  We had two senior video producers who worked primarily on Johnny's channel, and those were team members who started off as editors and just were like so deeply entrenched in the new press, like language and style and really understanding what Johnny and his notes would be.
• 17:22
  So they would supervise as well as editing their own videos.
• 17:27
  they would be supervising more junior editors on others and giving them creative notes to kind of relieve that notes burden, I guess, from Johnny and Iz.
• 17:37
  And we started to identify where were the most effective points of the process for Johnny and Iz to step in and give those notes to really shape it.
• 17:46
  We probably had, at that point in time, maybe three or four full-time editors, as well as probably another six,
• 17:56
  six to eight freelance editors.
• 17:59
  And then some of these editors are also animators.
• 18:03
  So we were working with them in some capacities, just as editors, just as animators.
• 18:07
  Sometimes they were editing and animating on the same video.
• 18:11
  It really did like vary quite a bit there.
• 18:14
  And then we had one,
• 18:15
  music composer.
• 18:16
  We had Tom Fox holding down the fort across the whole thing.
• 18:19
  But we also had the benefit of him having created so much music over the years.
• 18:24
  So we had sort of a large, robust library that we could pull from and editors could go to that and search a certain vibe or a certain, you know, keyword in terms of what they were looking for, like thinky or suspense,
• 18:40
  I adore Tom Fox's music, by the way.
• 18:42
  I think he's so cool.
• 18:43
  There's not a lot of composers in this industry, at least the ones that I know of.
• 18:47
  And he is top of game.
• 18:49
  He's so cool.
• 18:50
  Yeah, I think his music and his style shaped so much of the video taste as well.
• 18:56
  Yeah, I actually lead a number of editors in the work that I do outside of this podcast.
• 19:01
  And one of the things that I really try to share with them is get an understanding of the music flow in a Johnny Harris video.
• 19:10
  Johnny made this video like five or six years ago.
• 19:12
  It was like how I use music.
• 19:14
  It's got, I think, a quarter million views, so it's not even viral by his standards.
• 19:18
  But the way that Johnny thinks about music, alternating between feeling music and thinking music, the way that that's like conveyed through Tom's compositions, that's stuff that I try and like put on my own editors.
• 19:29
  I'm like, this is what we should work towards.
• 19:31
  Like, this is what excellence looks like.
• 19:33
  I mean, it's great.
• 19:34
  I had the great privilege of working with so many people on that team.
• 19:40
  Truly, not just very talented people, but awesome people who we were sleeping on night trains in the Arctic Circle on our way to Finland.
• 19:50
  And we were sleeping in a mangrove forest in the middle of Japan.
• 19:53
  Like, you have to have good people around you in order to do work like that.
• 19:58
  I want to zoom out a little bit and get your response to what the creator economy looks like right now and where you think it's headed in the next year, two years, five years.
• 20:07
  Do you have any theories?
• 20:09
  For years, we talked about creators being the alternative to the media institutions, right?
• 20:14
  I even started this conversation sort of in that place.
• 20:17
  But I do think that that distinction is starting to become obsolete because I do think the most interesting creators are sort of becoming these creators.
• 20:26
  institutions themselves, right?
• 20:28
  As New Press shows, they've got researchers, producers, editors, animators, designers.
• 20:34
  We have a fact-checking process.
• 20:35
  They have businesses supporting all of this work.
• 20:39
  So I think that the story isn't necessarily that creators are replacing traditional media.
• 20:45
  I think that the other huge shift that we're seeing is that YouTube's sort of increasingly becoming something that somebody watches for.
• 20:53
  Beyond just their phone or their computer, people are watching it on their TV.
• 20:58
  It is becoming much more premium.
• 21:01
  And I think that we're probably going to see a lot more premium long-form creator work, not less.
• 21:08
  And I think that that's a really hot take.
• 21:10
  I think that...
• 21:11
  Short form is having its moment right now, and I think short form is enormously important for discovery, but I have always felt this way.
• 21:19
  I don't feel that people in general have just lost the ability to concentrate anymore.
• 21:25
  I think that that's a specific type of media that people are looking to consume at certain times, but I do think people will watch...
• 21:33
  a 50-minute video if you've earned that 50 minutes.
• 21:36
  And I think if you've given them a promise that you've delivered on, and if the idea is really valuable and worthwhile, and you've also made sure that that idea has been translated in a way that is visually compelling and helps them understand something deeper, that's sort of why I have made this leap now from New Press to the School for Moral Ambition with
• 21:58
  Rutger, because I started to get more and more interested in these extraordinary researchers or writers or historians, including young people who don't yet have a platform, but who have these big thoughts and feel...
• 22:14
  compelled to do something to share them.
• 22:17
  I felt compelled to use my skills to kind of help elevate that in a bigger way and bring about like a bit more action, not having to build the machine from scratch and then drive it to impact.
• 22:32
  But I'm really interested in how the infrastructure that I can create around creator production can help other exceptional voices reach, you know, a larger audience.
• 22:42
  My boss, Mark Manson, about a year ago, he told me that he sensed the creator economy was doing something called bifurcating.
• 22:51
  I didn't know what that word meant at the time, but it basically meant splitting up.
• 22:55
  And he said that he saw this happen in his blogging eras, which was like 2010, 2012.
• 23:01
  And he said that blog posts used to be 500 words, but then it became either 2000 words or a tweet.
• 23:08
  And he said that...
• 23:09
  Attention was being bifurcated.
• 23:11
  So there was a lot of short form interest and a lot of really long form interest, but the interest in the middle wasn't there.
• 23:16
  And he predicted that that was going to happen to this to this industry.
• 23:19
  And you kind of touched on that a little bit where the short form world, it's got its own ecosystem and people are OK with that.
• 23:26
  And there's standards of what consumption looks like there.
• 23:28
  It seems like authenticity and like low production value is kind of winning.
• 23:33
  But on the flip side of it, longer videos and not only that, but more polished, professional documentary style pieces of content are also winning.
• 23:41
  And it sounds like with your career, you're really excited about the really polished, longer stuff that has some substance to it that hits an audience where it leaves some kind of like really meaningful impression with them.
• 23:53
  I think that that's true.
• 23:54
  I think ultimately, you know, I am interested in stories that shape an audience that impact people and that have something really, I think, important to say or is something that builds community or action.
• 24:11
  There's so many different avenues and keywords or whatever I can say here in terms of what I'm interested in.
• 24:17
  But I would actually also offer, I think it's true that it is bifurcating, that we've got the short form, the unpolished, you know, 60 seconds to two minutes.
• 24:28
  And then we've got the super polished, Johnny, you know, 50 minute video that, you know, has a production value beyond anything on Netflix.
• 24:37
  You know, like there's those two avenues for sure.
• 24:40
  But I actually think we're starting to see this emergence right now of this interest in the mid-50s.
• 24:45
  the mid-length, like the eight-minute video.
• 24:48
  What can we tell in that form that kind of draws from both or that maybe dives a bit deeper into a specific area of what would be a long-form video talking about an entire topic?
• 25:01
  Maybe you kind of go down one of those avenues of rabbit hole and you expand upon it so that someone really understands what that avenue is.
• 25:09
  I do think that this mid-length
• 25:12
  is starting we saw it at new press we're seeing it with rock verse content there is something in that that i think is really worth experimenting with and i think that's quite funny because that's kind of going back to again this early youtube era you know originally youtube had a four minute video
• 25:30
  Then it expanded and it was, you know, slightly longer and slightly longer and slightly longer.
• 25:34
  But for a huge portion of that early YouTube days, like it was very popular to have like a four to eight minute video.
• 25:41
  And that was something that really engaged people that really drove community building, but also views and sort of engagement.
• 25:51
  And I sort of feel like we're also seeing a sense of that come back around in a way, in the way that I feel like we're also seeing this drive back toward the individual creator voice.
• 26:05
  And I think what's interesting is there's so many organizations like New Press, like the School for Moral Ambition, has big plans around what they're doing that I can't talk about yet, annoyingly, but...
• 26:17
  There's these organizations that are starting to exist to champion, you know, all of these individual voices.
• 26:24
  But what's important is that we're retaining that individual creator's voice because that's what people want to engage with and relate to.
• 26:31
  And I think that they have an expectation of what they're coming to engage with.
• 26:35
  Whereas if you go to the homepage of New York Times video, like you have a really eclectic selection to choose from.
• 26:42
  And that might be overwhelming to me.
• 26:44
  to somebody who has the entire world at their fingertips already.
• 26:48
  And I think offering somebody a, hey, this is a Rucker Bregman video, this is a Christoph Halberson video, and you sort of know what you're going into is something that's really valuable to an audience, I think.
• 27:00
  And it helps build sort of like long-term loyalty and engagement.
• 27:05
  That segues quite nicely into my last question.
• 27:07
  Who is a voice on the internet right now who is doing something excellent that deserves more attention?
• 27:14
  So I'm going to say something that's kind of interesting because it's not necessarily in video, but I think Hannah Ritchie is really interesting in terms of having serious expertise and important subjects, sort of evidence-led optimism.
• 27:33
  And I like this idea of how, or this question maybe, of how an authoritative thing,
• 27:39
  thinker can become like a genuinely native video or media-led voice.
• 27:45
  And so I see someone like Hannah Ritchie and what she's doing and I go, can I make a channel out of that?
• 27:51
  Like, can I, can I, can I, cause we've started, we started to do that at New Press.
• 27:56
  Like Max Fisher is not natively, you know, a filmmaker.
• 28:00
  Max is the first one at New Press who doesn't have video or animation or filmmaking experience.
• 28:06
  And they're starting to play that experiment there.
• 28:09
  And I'm sort of interested in playing that experiment now out at the School for Moral Ambition.
• 28:13
  Let's find these really serious thinkers, these really interesting, compelling, authoritative voices, these experts who have, you know, the ability to shape thoughts.
• 28:25
  so clearly and say, now can we apply that process, that system of production to somebody who isn't already coming from that place?
• 28:34
  And I think that that is where I'm most interested in seeing what comes next.
• 28:39
  So Hannah is a writer.
• 28:40
  She's not video native.
• 28:42
  Correct.
• 28:43
  So maybe, maybe she will be with your help.
• 28:45
  Maybe.
• 28:46
  I don't know.
• 28:46
  I haven't spoken with her to be clear.
• 28:48
  I just think, oh, I could turn that into some really interesting animations.
• 28:53
  Sure, sure, sure.
• 28:54
  you know, in this field that we all know, but like visuals do the intellectual work.
• 28:58
  We don't have a shortage of ideas out there.
• 29:00
  It's just translating it and distributing it.
• 29:03
  So I'm excited to kind of find more avenues and test out the formula, as it were, on new creators and new thinkers and writers.
• 29:13
  Yeah.
• 29:13
  Thank you so much for watching or listening to this episode.
• 29:16
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• 29:19
  It helps us as a very new show.
• 29:21
  If you want to check out another episode, just look through our library.
• 29:24
  It's starting to build up.
• 29:25
  We're at like 40 episodes now.
• 29:27
  And we have a new one coming out every single Thursday.
• 29:29
  So thank you for being here.
• 29:30
  And I will see you then.