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Erupting Exo Comets, Boiling Ice Moons & Martian Climate Revelations | Space Nuts: Astronomy... · Space News Today

• 0:00
  Hello again. Thanks for joining us on
• 0:02
  Space Nuts. My name is Andrew Dunley,
• 0:05
  your host, and it's good to be with you.
• 0:07
  Uh this is where we talk about astronomy
• 0:09
  and space science every week, twice a
• 0:12
  week, in fact. And on today's program,
• 0:15
  uh more news coming from the exoc comet
• 0:19
  3iLas. Apparently, it is erupting. How
• 0:23
  so? What can we learn from that? We're
• 0:25
  also going to look at the boiling oceans
• 0:27
  of ice moons. That sounds like a
• 0:29
  contradiction in terms, doesn't it?
• 0:30
  Boiling ice, but apparently it's
• 0:33
  happening. Uh, more revelations about
• 0:35
  the former climate of Mars. And this is
• 0:38
  really interesting. And a whoopsy daisy
• 0:40
  with the Sawyers launch pad. That's all
• 0:43
  coming up in this episode of Space Nuts.
• 0:46
  >> 15 seconds. Guidance is internal. 10 9
• 0:51
  Ignition sequence start.
• 0:52
  >> Space Nuts. 5 4 3 2
• 0:56
  >> 1 2 3 4 5 4 3 2 1
• 0:58
  >> Space nuts.
• 0:59
  >> Astronauts report it. It feels good.
• 1:02
  >> And looking better than this morning's
• 1:03
  golf round at my golf club. Is Professor
• 1:06
  Fred Watson astronomer at large? Hello,
• 1:08
  Fred.
• 1:09
  >> How you doing, Andrew?
• 1:11
  >> Uh I'm I'm not sure. Uh if you looked
• 1:14
  like my golf round, you would be in a
• 1:15
  very bad way. But you know that that's
• 1:18
  golf. You had some shockers occasionally
• 1:21
  and I had one today. So,
• 1:23
  >> well, you but last week you were
• 1:25
  championship winning, so
• 1:27
  >> Yes. And and we have an old saying in
• 1:29
  golf, uh, from rooster to feather
• 1:31
  duster. That's what's that's what's
• 1:33
  happened there.
• 1:33
  >> Oh, I see. Okay. Oh, yeah. Well, feather
• 1:36
  dusters have their place.
• 1:38
  >> Yeah. Not on a golf course.
• 1:40
  >> No.
• 1:41
  >> You can't hit a can't hit a ball very
• 1:44
  far with a feather duster. I can tell
• 1:45
  you that.
• 1:46
  >> Yes. What's been happening in your
• 1:49
  world, Fred? Are you all right?
• 1:50
  >> Yep. All right. I'm I've been having the
• 1:53
  um 30,000 kilometer oil and water tires
• 1:57
  check with I was just saying my eighth
• 1:59
  medical appointment this morning since
• 2:01
  we got back two weeks ago. So, but it's
• 2:04
  all so so far so good. Yeah.
• 2:06
  >> Yeah. Well, after we did our three
• 2:07
  months overseas. Yeah. That was our life
• 2:10
  for a couple of weeks, too. Catching up
• 2:11
  on all those things.
• 2:12
  >> Catching up on the medical stuff.
• 2:14
  >> Yeah. Cuz if you if you get a medical
• 2:15
  checkup on a on a cruise ship, it cost
• 2:18
  you it cost you a fortune. Just don't
• 2:20
  get sick on a cruise ship.
• 2:22
  >> No, I wouldn't actually do that. No,
• 2:24
  >> no, not a good idea. Uh, let's get into
• 2:27
  it, Fred. And our first story takes us
• 2:30
  once again to Three Eye Atlas, the exoc
• 2:33
  comet that has been in our skies since I
• 2:36
  think it was discovered in July.
• 2:38
  >> Yes.
• 2:39
  >> And we've been talking about it ever
• 2:41
  since. And it's been quite an exciting
• 2:43
  find. And now they've discovered uh
• 2:46
  volcanic eruptions. Is that am I is that
• 2:49
  just you know creative license or is
• 2:52
  that sort of what's happening?
• 2:54
  >> It's um it is a bit of both actually.
• 2:58
  Uh I think um so the the idea of what we
• 3:03
  call cryo volcanoes, volcanic eruptions
• 3:06
  on cold icy worlds is a phenomenon that
• 3:10
  we've seen before uh on a number of
• 3:14
  bodies. Uh we think that uh series the
• 3:19
  biggest object in the asteroid belt and
• 3:21
  a dwarf planet as according to our
• 3:23
  current classification Titan Saturn's
• 3:26
  giant moon Titan and probably Pluto as
• 3:30
  well um the dwarf planet Pluto we think
• 3:33
  they have all had um ice volcanoes cry
• 3:37
  volcanoes on their surface because their
• 3:39
  surface temperatures well in the case of
• 3:41
  Pluto it's way below it's about 200
• 3:43
  minus 230 I
• 3:45
  Uh it's a little bit warmer on Titan and
• 3:47
  a little bit warmer still on uh series,
• 3:50
  but still way below zero. And so the
• 3:53
  structure of these worlds is a, as you
• 3:55
  know, it's a rocky core with an ocean of
• 3:59
  maybe liquid water, maybe something
• 4:01
  slushy, maybe as in the case of series,
• 4:04
  a mix with ammonia in it. Um, and
• 4:08
  uh the that because over over the top of
• 4:11
  that you've got a crust of water ice
• 4:13
  which is as hard as rock and that's what
• 4:15
  it behaves like but the liquid below
• 4:18
  just like magma on the earth's crust
• 4:20
  only that's a lot hotter but the liquid
• 4:23
  below is under pressure and sometimes
• 4:25
  punctures the crusty surface the icy
• 4:27
  crust and you get a cryo volcano uh
• 4:29
  which are a little bit funnyl looking.
• 4:31
  They're not um you know what we think of
• 4:33
  as a classic strata volcano. And you and
• 4:36
  I have both seen Mount Fuji and we know
• 4:37
  that's the absolute archetypal uh um
• 4:41
  strata volcano.
• 4:43
  >> I've se I've seen them in Guatemala.
• 4:46
  They
• 4:46
  >> Yes, that's right. They are monsters of
• 4:48
  things. Those
• 4:49
  >> Yes. Yes. I remember you telling me
• 4:50
  about quite extraordinary. Um but uh ice
• 4:55
  volcanoes tend to be more rounded in
• 4:57
  their in their you know in their
• 4:59
  structure. Certainly around the cold era
• 5:01
  that they've got a rounded top and I
• 5:04
  think that's just because of the
• 5:05
  properties of the liquid that's being
• 5:07
  gushed out. It's not molten lava. It's
• 5:09
  molten slush. Uh that's as I said
• 5:13
  probably ammonia and um and water in the
• 5:16
  case of of series. Anyway, um the bottom
• 5:21
  line with all this is that uh we we
• 5:26
  believe that cryov volcanoes are common
• 5:30
  on trans neptunian objects and and
• 5:32
  certainly uh Pluto is a trans neptunian
• 5:36
  object. Uh we think there is evidence
• 5:38
  that other trans neptunian objects out
• 5:41
  there thinks beyond the orbit of Neptune
• 5:44
  uh have got cryo volcanoes on their
• 5:46
  surface as well. Um and what's happened
• 5:50
  um is that if if you imagine that comet
• 5:56
  3i Atlas, the uh interstellar comet or
• 6:00
  exoc comet as you said, I like that
• 6:01
  term. Um it's uh if you imagine that
• 6:05
  being from the trans neptunian zone of
• 6:08
  its uh original solar system, which it
• 6:10
  probably is, uh then it may well have
• 6:13
  cry volcanoes on its surface. And so
• 6:16
  that's the sort of premise I think from
• 6:18
  which this work has started. Uh but
• 6:22
  there is a group of uh I think they're
• 6:24
  Spanish uh scientists who have used a
• 6:27
  telescope in Spain and they've basically
• 6:30
  looked at um the comet when it was close
• 6:36
  to its um closest approach to the sun.
• 6:40
  In other words, when it was close to
• 6:41
  perihelion. Now, when it went through
• 6:44
  perihelion, it was invisible to us. That
• 6:46
  was on October the 29th.
• 6:48
  >> Yeah.
• 6:48
  >> Um and because the sun was in the way.
• 6:51
  Uh and that kind of spoils the view a
• 6:53
  bit. But they uh what they so what
• 6:55
  they're um what they're doing is uh
• 6:57
  taking um observations before that and
• 7:00
  after that as close as they can. Uh and
• 7:03
  it's all to see what happens to the icy
• 7:06
  surface of the comet as it uh gets
• 7:10
  heated up by the sun sun's radiation.
• 7:13
  >> Uh so um
• 7:16
  uh the the the
• 7:19
  brightness of the comet uh got much more
• 7:23
  uh much higher when it passed the sun.
• 7:26
  And that's typical because as the
• 7:28
  nearest point to the sun, the comet's
• 7:30
  feeling the most extreme solar radiation
• 7:33
  both in terms of ultraviolet light and
• 7:36
  solar wind and that's when they tend to
• 7:38
  get most active. Uh so what they're
• 7:40
  suggesting is that there is
• 7:46
  basically um something that's happened
• 7:50
  that means that the solid carbon dioxide
• 7:54
  uh which is turning into gaseous carbon
• 7:58
  dio dioxide under the sun's radiation.
• 8:01
  They think that um there's been a
• 8:04
  reaction uh because the um the crust
• 8:08
  looks as though they they believe the
• 8:10
  comet has a crust uh and a reaction
• 8:13
  within the comet has u essentially and
• 8:18
  it involves um uh the um
• 8:22
  molecules that they mention are reactive
• 8:25
  metallic grains like nickel and iron
• 8:28
  sulfides. I'm not a chemist, so I can't
• 8:31
  comment on that, but I can believe that.
• 8:33
  Um, and what they're saying is that
• 8:35
  there's there's been stuff happening
• 8:37
  underneath the surface of the comet that
• 8:39
  has um basically allowed gas to erupt
• 8:43
  from the comet itself. And that's the
• 8:46
  gas that has caused the increase in
• 8:48
  brightening because you've suddenly got
• 8:49
  a lot more gas around the comet which is
• 8:52
  basically glowing because of the uh
• 8:55
  effect of the solar radiation. Uh, I
• 8:57
  think that's the gist of the story,
• 8:59
  Andrew. It's um
• 9:00
  >> Yeah, I I'd be I'm a bit surprised given
• 9:03
  how big Three Atlas is. It's not a not a
• 9:07
  huge object in this. Well, you know, if
• 9:09
  it hit us, it wouldn't be nice, but um
• 9:11
  it it I I would have thought something
• 9:13
  that small wouldn't be able to kind of
• 9:16
  erupt, but I suppose it's more of a
• 9:17
  reaction to its uh environment.
• 9:20
  >> That That's correct. Yes. and and it I
• 9:23
  suppose what needs an eruption or what
• 9:26
  would drive an eruption is if you've got
• 9:27
  a harder crust above something beneath
• 9:30
  it that is uh more vol sorry more um uh
• 9:35
  less viscous that way something that's
• 9:37
  slloshing around and I think that's what
• 9:39
  these scientists are suggesting and it's
• 9:41
  their um you know their observations of
• 9:43
  the the coma of the comet the coma is
• 9:45
  the the brightness around the nucleus
• 9:48
  the nucleus is the icy body itself the
• 9:51
  coma that has brightened up. I think the
• 9:53
  tail has brightened up as well. Um and
• 9:56
  the basically they're suggesting that
• 9:59
  that's due to this phenomenon of of a
• 10:02
  less viscous sub um mantle if you want
• 10:07
  to put it that way because that's what
• 10:08
  it is in the case of the earth. Uh that
• 10:10
  allows an eruption to take place. Um
• 10:12
  you're right about the size though
• 10:14
  because at first um estimates of three
• 10:18
  Atlas's size and this is the nucleus
• 10:20
  that we're talking about the actual icy
• 10:22
  object itself was in the region of 20
• 10:24
  kilometers which would be very very
• 10:26
  large for a comet but I think the the
• 10:29
  latest observations from the Hubble
• 10:31
  Space Telescope suggest it's much less
• 10:33
  than that between about 500 meters and a
• 10:36
  kilometer or so something of that sort.
• 10:39
  M
• 10:39
  >> um actually it it might be more than
• 10:42
  that sort of 500 m maybe to 5 km some
• 10:46
  something in that range is what they're
• 10:48
  suggesting.
• 10:49
  >> Okay. And so there's um there's much to
• 10:52
  learn from this behavior because uh we
• 10:55
  we might be able to see what's going on
• 10:56
  inside.
• 10:58
  >> Yes, that's right. That's the thing
• 10:59
  about cry volcanoes, what they spew out
• 11:01
  is what's inside the object. And so it's
• 11:03
  worth studying. Um, all the ones that
• 11:06
  we've seen so far, like on Pluto, Titan,
• 11:08
  and series, they're all extinct. They're
• 11:11
  not doing anything. But there's uh
• 11:13
  evidence around them. Certainly in
• 11:15
  series, there's all these uh chemicals
• 11:17
  that have been and and you might
• 11:19
  remember that series has got bright
• 11:21
  spots on it, uh, which we think are
• 11:24
  salts left behind by liquid that's oozed
• 11:27
  up in these either in fractures or the
• 11:29
  cry volcanoes themselves. uh and left
• 11:32
  and as the solar radiation has sort of
• 11:34
  boiled away the liquid uh you've got
• 11:36
  you've got these salts left which are
• 11:38
  really quite white in color. Uh that's
• 11:41
  why series was such an interesting world
• 11:43
  when the dawn spacecraft was approaching
• 11:45
  it and we could see all these spots on
• 11:47
  it markets put there by extraterrestrial
• 11:50
  intelligence. No, there were fields of
• 11:52
  salt someone
• 11:55
  there.
• 11:56
  >> No, we continue to be mesmerized by
• 11:59
  three Atlas. it just keeps um for, you
• 12:01
  know, no pun intended, throwing up new
• 12:03
  information and interesting things. So,
• 12:06
  um I'm sure there'll be more to learn uh
• 12:08
  as it keeps um skimming our sun and
• 12:13
  it'll disappear later next year. Next
• 12:15
  year sometime, won't it? It'll be
• 12:16
  >> I think that's right. Yeah. Below
• 12:19
  >> below the level that we can detect it,
• 12:21
  especially if it's, you know, only 5
• 12:22
  kilometers or less in size. That's not
• 12:25
  much to refle reflect the sun's light
• 12:27
  once you've got all the activity
• 12:29
  stopping because the sun's radiation's
• 12:31
  going.
• 12:32
  >> Yes, indeed. All right. Um I think you
• 12:34
  can read up on that story uh at the live
• 12:37
  science website, but I think they've
• 12:39
  also published their findings in um the
• 12:42
  archive server. Yes, they have. So, you
• 12:44
  might want to check that out there. This
• 12:46
  is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunley and
• 12:49
  Professor Fred Watson.
• 12:51
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  >> And I feel space nuts. Now, you might
• 15:35
  think it's weird that a an object as
• 15:38
  small as a comet could um you know have
• 15:40
  a cryo volcano, but what's even weirder
• 15:43
  is this story about ice moons having
• 15:46
  boiling oceans. Do tell.
• 15:50
  >> This is work from uh uh I think a number
• 15:54
  of um authors, some at least of whom are
• 15:57
  from the University of California,
• 15:59
  Davis. uh the lead author Max Rudolph is
• 16:03
  from that institution and uh they've
• 16:06
  been thinking about
• 16:09
  uh the
• 16:11
  the exact details of the structure of
• 16:14
  the ice moons that we so often talk
• 16:16
  about on space shuttles.
• 16:18
  >> Once again, that structure, a rocky
• 16:20
  core, a liquid ocean over the top of it,
• 16:22
  and an icy crust on top of that. So um
• 16:26
  they've um looked in some detail at the
• 16:29
  physics of this and what's driven that
• 16:32
  are things that we see on these ice
• 16:35
  moons and some of the contrasts. For
• 16:37
  example um you know you've only to think
• 16:40
  about Enceladus perhaps the poster child
• 16:43
  of the ice moons because of the geysers
• 16:44
  of ice crystals that erupt from its
• 16:47
  southern pole. Um, and the region where
• 16:51
  those geysers erupt, uh, is is very
• 16:55
  fractured. Um, in fact, the fractures
• 16:57
  were discovered first before Cassini
• 16:59
  spotted the the the ice geysers. Um, and
• 17:02
  they were called tiger stripes because
• 17:04
  they're sort of blue in color. I'm not
• 17:06
  quite sure why a blue tiger would uh
• 17:08
  have those stripes, but anyway, that's
• 17:11
  what they look like. They look like
• 17:12
  stripes on a tiger, but they're blue. It
• 17:14
  is otherwise a stunningly beautiful
• 17:16
  world. Yes, it is. Absolutely, I agree
• 17:19
  with that. But contrast that with Mimas,
• 17:23
  which is one of um Saturn's moons that
• 17:26
  is, you know, it's in the same region of
• 17:29
  the solar system, but it is totally
• 17:31
  totally different. It's got an ancient
• 17:33
  surface uh peppered with craters, one of
• 17:36
  which is huge and makes it look like the
• 17:38
  Death Star. Uh that's why Mimas, I
• 17:41
  think, is the poster child of science
• 17:42
  fiction readers rather than physicists.
• 17:46
  um but they've all got the same the same
• 17:48
  structure. So why are they so different?
• 17:50
  >> And so um these scientists at the
• 17:53
  University of California Davis and
• 17:54
  elsewhere have looked in detail at that
• 17:57
  the physics of what happens. And um it
• 18:01
  so it it a lot depends on
• 18:05
  how they manage to maintain their
• 18:08
  internal heat and in certainly in the
• 18:11
  case of Enceladus and I think this is
• 18:13
  probably true with Mimas as well but to
• 18:14
  a le lesser extent you've got uh tidal
• 18:18
  forces you've got a giant planet in this
• 18:20
  case we're talking about Saturn which is
• 18:23
  your next door neighbor uh and having
• 18:26
  something big that big that near is
• 18:29
  going to exert really strong tidal
• 18:32
  forces. And tidal forces are ones that
• 18:34
  tend to stretch and squeeze uh a um a
• 18:39
  body like a moon. Um and so that's where
• 18:43
  we think most of the internal heat comes
• 18:45
  from uh in uh certainly in Enceladus
• 18:48
  that you've got Enceladus in an orbit
• 18:50
  that is not circular. And so as it's
• 18:53
  nearer and further away from Saturn in
• 18:55
  its orbits, it will be stretched and
• 18:57
  squeezed that causes frictional heating
• 19:00
  and that in excuse me that in turn keeps
• 19:04
  that liquid water ocean liquid uh rather
• 19:08
  than letting it freeze. So, but what
• 19:11
  they have suggested these authors is um
• 19:14
  if you think about what's happening here
• 19:18
  uh the ice uh above the ocean when
• 19:23
  you've got stronger tidal heating that
• 19:27
  shell of ice can melt on its underside.
• 19:30
  >> And we know that ice is odd in that it
• 19:34
  gets bigger as it freezes.
• 19:37
  >> Yes. Um it's um that's why you get burst
• 19:39
  pipes because when the ice freezes it
• 19:41
  gets bigger.
• 19:42
  >> That's right.
• 19:42
  >> Um and so if the ice melts then you've
• 19:46
  got um basically uh a smaller smaller
• 19:50
  volume of ice. And what they're
• 19:53
  suggesting is that uh when that happens
• 19:58
  um the when the ice shell melts from the
• 20:01
  bottom you get effectively a vacuum uh
• 20:05
  above the liquid. Mhm.
• 20:07
  >> Um or it wants to form a vacuum because
• 20:10
  the pressure is suddenly low and what
• 20:13
  that can do is cause the liquid to boil.
• 20:17
  Um I don't know whether you've ever seen
• 20:18
  liquid boiling under low pressure.
• 20:21
  Andrew,
• 20:21
  >> no.
• 20:22
  >> Uh it's pretty easy to demonstrate if
• 20:24
  you've if you've got a hypodermic
• 20:26
  syringe or something like that. Um
• 20:28
  transparent one. And I used to use them
• 20:29
  for uh dropping bits of liquid onto
• 20:33
  things when I was building fiber optic
• 20:35
  systems at the observatory. If you got a
• 20:37
  hypodermic syringe and you fill it with
• 20:39
  water uh and you put your finger over
• 20:41
  the end of it um and then pull back the
• 20:45
  uh pull back the the syringe uh piston,
• 20:48
  uh the water will boil because you
• 20:50
  create a vacuum above it uh and and it
• 20:53
  basically just boils. It's quite
• 20:55
  dramatic to watch. Does it boil boil hot
• 20:58
  or is it just
• 20:58
  >> No, it's it's boiling at room
• 20:59
  temperature.
• 21:00
  >> Wow.
• 21:01
  >> Um so, and so and what we're talking
• 21:03
  about here is something that's boiling
• 21:04
  at much lower than room temperature
• 21:07
  because you've got ice above it. But if
• 21:09
  the pressure is low enough, the water
• 21:10
  will boil. Uh and that's why you can't
• 21:13
  have liquid water for very long anyway
• 21:15
  on Mars because the air pressure above
• 21:17
  it is too too low.
• 21:19
  So yes, um uh the suggestion is that we
• 21:22
  might get this boiling. Uh and what
• 21:25
  they're saying is that that could give
• 21:29
  you some of the strange
• 21:32
  uh or the differences in terrain that we
• 21:35
  see between the moons. Um
• 21:39
  if I can um uh let's see this is from
• 21:41
  Scitec Daily. This is uh it might be a
• 21:46
  press release actually by University of
• 21:47
  California Davis. I was going to read
• 21:50
  from it. I want to credit the uh the
• 21:52
  origin. Um, let me say so, so Mimas, uh,
• 21:57
  that's the Death Star ice moon. Oh, it
• 22:00
  says, I'll read the whole thing and I
• 22:01
  won't comment on it. Um, images.
• 22:06
  All right. There's a there's a there's
• 22:09
  another world another world that they're
• 22:10
  talking about, which is Miranda, which
• 22:12
  is one of Uranus's moons. We'll forget
• 22:14
  that for a minute, but we'll just talk
• 22:16
  about Mimas. uh less than 250 mi across
• 22:19
  and pitted with craters, including a
• 22:20
  very large crater, earning it the
• 22:22
  nickname Death Star. It appears to be
• 22:24
  geologically dead, Rudolph said, uh lead
• 22:27
  author. But a wubble in its movement
• 22:30
  suggests an ocean is present. Because
• 22:32
  Mimos's ice shell is not expected to
• 22:35
  break as a result of ice shell thinning,
• 22:37
  the presence of an ocean can be
• 22:40
  reconciled with a geologically dead
• 22:42
  surface. Um, but what they're then
• 22:45
  saying is, uh, that if you've got, uh, a
• 22:48
  thinner eye shell, then you'll end up
• 22:51
  with a surface like the one on Enceladus
• 22:53
  with stuff actually bursting through it.
• 22:55
  >> Okay.
• 22:55
  >> Uh, really interesting piece of work.
• 22:58
  Um, it's uh, it's in nature astronomy.
• 23:01
  So, it's a top level journal that this
• 23:03
  is published in. Uh, and the paper in
• 23:06
  Nature Astronomy is called Boiling
• 23:07
  Oceans and Compressional Tectonics on
• 23:10
  emerging ocean worlds. There you go.
• 23:13
  >> Yeah. I mean, when I was a kid, we
• 23:15
  didn't even know that ice moons existed.
• 23:19
  I um I'm sure
• 23:21
  >> when you were when you were an adult,
• 23:23
  you didn't know any, you know, but now
• 23:25
  we're finding more and more of them.
• 23:28
  We're starting to go, well, hang on a
• 23:29
  minute.
• 23:30
  >> Pluto could be one of these, too. And
• 23:33
  the list just gets longer and longer.
• 23:35
  >> Yeah, it probably is.
• 23:36
  >> It Yeah. Um so, and so much to learn.
• 23:39
  And of course, um, yeah, as we've
• 23:42
  mentioned many times before, there's a
• 23:44
  lot of excitement in regard to having
• 23:46
  worlds in our solar system with liquid
• 23:48
  oceans because,
• 23:50
  um, you know, water means life on Earth.
• 23:53
  So, could it be the same elsewhere?
• 23:55
  It's, um, yeah, it's it's it's a mystery
• 23:59
  that's going to be resolved in the not
• 24:01
  too distant future, I imagine.
• 24:03
  >> We can, but hope so. Um, I mean, you
• 24:05
  know, our friend Linda Spilka, former
• 24:08
  Cassini mission scientist, she's working
• 24:11
  on a on a on a flyby mission to sample
• 24:16
  the geysers of Enceladus again um with
• 24:20
  with a view to looking for exactly that
• 24:23
  evidence of living organisms in the sub
• 24:26
  ocean uh sub ice ocean of Enceladus. I
• 24:30
  hope we are space knotting long enough
• 24:33
  to get the results of that.
• 24:36
  >> And of course, Europa clip is on its way
• 24:38
  too.
• 24:38
  >> Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Which is And
• 24:40
  so Europa is another ice moon. Similar,
• 24:42
  you know, similar story.
• 24:43
  >> Yep.
• 24:44
  >> Yeah. We watch with interest. As Fred
• 24:46
  said, you can read all about it uh on
• 24:48
  the website Sciiet Daily, or you could
• 24:51
  uh go to the uh the paper itself, which
• 24:54
  um is down the bottom of this particular
• 24:57
  article somewhere, and I've lost it, but
• 24:59
  um yes, it is a it is a published
• 25:01
  document. Uh Nature Astronomy. There it
• 25:04
  is right in front of me. This is Space
• 25:06
  Nuts with Andrew Dunley and Fred Watson.
• 25:08
  >> 3 2 1
• 25:11
  >> Space Nuts. The more we look at Mars,
• 25:14
  the more we study Mars, the more we
• 25:17
  start to learn about it. And there's a a
• 25:20
  new uh piece of evidence that's been uh
• 25:23
  discovered. And I believe there's
• 25:24
  another paper been published saying we
• 25:27
  think that not only did Mars have an
• 25:30
  atmosphere, it had uh and oceans. We
• 25:33
  already know that. But it looks like uh
• 25:36
  for billions of years it had a near
• 25:39
  tropical environment with pouring rain
• 25:42
  and um all the things that we take for
• 25:44
  granted on Earth. This this is quite an
• 25:47
  amazing um claim I suppose you'd call
• 25:50
  it. It is. Yes. Um so uh lots of um lots
• 25:58
  of uh I guess comparisons being drawn
• 26:01
  here. Um and um our old friend fizz.org
• 26:05
  has got a very nice article uh entitled
• 26:09
  evidence of raindriven climate on Mars
• 26:11
  found in bleach rocks scattered in
• 26:13
  Jezero crater. Jezro crater is where
• 26:16
  perseverance is. Uh and that is
• 26:20
  something that uh is kind of expected
• 26:23
  because Jezro crater was once a river
• 26:26
  delta uh from water that flowed from a a
• 26:30
  river into the crater itself. And we
• 26:33
  have plenty of evidence that that
• 26:35
  happened maybe three to four billion
• 26:38
  years ago. But what is now happening is
• 26:42
  that Perseverance is actually having a
• 26:45
  closer look at some of the rocks around
• 26:47
  and has discovered uh some um would you
• 26:51
  excuse me just a moment now that's not
• 26:54
  going to work. I'm just going to ignore
• 26:56
  that as a phone call. Um I'll have to
• 26:58
  I'll have to ignore it. There's no point
• 27:00
  in sending a message because it's not
• 27:01
  coming from a mobile phone.
• 27:03
  >> Oh right.
• 27:04
  >> Yeah. Sorry. Keep going. You can edit
• 27:06
  that bit without you. Um what uh what
• 27:09
  has been discovered by Perseverance
• 27:12
  are um aluminium rich clay rocks
• 27:19
  uh and well I'll read the sentence. It's
• 27:22
  a lovely summary of what the story is.
• 27:24
  As I said it's on the f.org website. The
• 27:27
  rocks discovered by NASA's Perseverance
• 27:29
  Mars rover are white alium aluminium
• 27:32
  rich sorry aluminum rich. I should read
• 27:36
  it properly and pronounce it properly.
• 27:39
  We call it aluminium. Uh other side of
• 27:41
  the Pacific calls it aluminum. So that's
• 27:43
  where this came from. So let's call it
• 27:44
  that. Uh they are white aluminum rich
• 27:48
  kaolinite clay. So kaite is a clayish uh
• 27:53
  mineral which forms on earth after rocks
• 27:56
  and sediment are leeched of all other
• 27:58
  minerals by millions of years of a wet
• 28:01
  rainy climate. That's the bottom line
• 28:04
  and it's exactly as you've said evidence
• 28:06
  for uh rain uh long periods of rain uh
• 28:10
  and you know the what this speaks of is
• 28:14
  and this is I guess the big question
• 28:16
  about water on Mars. Were these lakes
• 28:18
  and seas that we know were there? Were
• 28:21
  they there just, you know, sporadically
• 28:23
  uh just once in a while for a few u
• 28:26
  million years but not there permanently
• 28:29
  or were we talking about oceans that
• 28:31
  themselves lasted for millions of years?
• 28:33
  And some of the recent work as well as
• 28:35
  this particular piece of work uh
• 28:37
  definitely support the latter. Uh that
• 28:39
  there was rain falling for millions of
• 28:41
  years and it was probably a tropical
• 28:44
  climate uh exactly as you said in the
• 28:46
  intro. Um um Andrew um so one of the
• 28:51
  authors uh has commented so when you see
• 28:55
  Kalinite on a place like Mars where it's
• 28:58
  barren cold and with certainly no liquid
• 29:00
  water at the surface it tells us that
• 29:02
  there was once a lot more water than
• 29:04
  there is today and it's somebody who's
• 29:06
  actually a collaborator on the
• 29:08
  Perseverance rover. So yes, more
• 29:11
  evidence still that we had a wet warm
• 29:13
  past uh on the planet Mars and just me
• 29:17
  just maybe uh we had uh life there
• 29:21
  because
• 29:23
  um the the the sort of rocks that we're
• 29:26
  talking about the kalinite uh are
• 29:29
  thought to be a little bit like a time
• 29:31
  capsule that there might be information
• 29:33
  in those rocks from billions of years
• 29:35
  ago that tell you about whether there
• 29:38
  were living organism isms on on Mars. Uh
• 29:42
  and that is the sort of holy grail of
• 29:44
  all this work. Whether a chunk of
• 29:47
  kalonite kalinite will be something that
• 29:51
  the hope hoped for Mars return mission
• 29:56
  would be able to bring back is another
• 29:57
  question. But maybe perseverance will
• 30:00
  drill samples from it so that we might
• 30:02
  find out. Uh because those those caches
• 30:04
  of of drilled samples are what we're
• 30:06
  expecting to come back to Earth at some
• 30:08
  point. At the moment, there isn't
• 30:10
  actually a mission on the cards that
• 30:11
  will do that.
• 30:13
  >> Yeah, I know. And that's frustrating,
• 30:15
  right?
• 30:15
  >> But um that's just the way it is at the
• 30:18
  moment. But I was just reading that the
• 30:21
  um ocean or the lake that existed in
• 30:25
  Jezero Crater they say is about twice
• 30:27
  the size of Lake Taho.
• 30:30
  Um, that would probably mean something
• 30:32
  to someone. I had to look up how big
• 30:34
  Lake Tahoe is and they're talking 496
• 30:38
  km. So, the lake that um they're
• 30:42
  investigating or the remnants of it on
• 30:44
  Mars is twice that size,000 kilometers.
• 30:47
  So,
• 30:47
  >> y
• 30:48
  >> yeah, um it's pretty uh pretty amazing
• 30:51
  stuff and uh yeah, getting up close to
• 30:56
  some of this evidence is really starting
• 30:58
  to um provide people with the fuel they
• 31:02
  need
• 31:03
  >> to come up with um pretty solid theories
• 31:06
  I I would suggest.
• 31:07
  >> Yeah.
• 31:07
  >> Or even liquid theories.
• 31:09
  >> Yes, maybe.
• 31:11
  Maybe. Uh because they they keep saying
• 31:14
  where did all the water go? Oh, there
• 31:15
  must have and makes you wonder now if it
• 31:17
  had billions of years of saturating
• 31:19
  rain, I'm guessing it wasn't continuous.
• 31:22
  It was, you know, like it is on Earth
• 31:24
  comes and goes, but um there must have
• 31:25
  been a heck of a lot of water around at
• 31:27
  some stage.
• 31:29
  >> Yeah. And we know that a lot of it's
• 31:30
  still there uh locked up in the
• 31:32
  perafrost underneath the surface and uh
• 31:36
  in the Arctic and Antarctic regions of
• 31:38
  Mars. There's uh the ice caps themselves
• 31:41
  have got huge coms of water locked up in
• 31:44
  them. But a lot of it also leeched off
• 31:47
  into space. We know that Mars has lost a
• 31:49
  lot of its water by the hydrogen and
• 31:52
  oxygen atoms being dissociated and off
• 31:54
  goes the hydrogen because it's very
• 31:56
  light.
• 31:57
  >> Indeed.
• 31:58
  >> All right. But if you'd like to read up
• 31:59
  on that, as Fred said, it's at fizz.org
• 32:02
  or you can read the paper. Uh the
• 32:04
  findings were published in the journal
• 32:05
  Communications Earth and Environment.
• 32:08
  This is Space Nuts with Andrew Dunley
• 32:11
  and Professor Fred Watson. Space Nuts.
• 32:14
  Finally, Fred, uh bit of a bit of a
• 32:18
  bummer really. A whoopsy daisy with the
• 32:20
  Sawyer's launch pad after a um a launch
• 32:23
  the other day.
• 32:25
  >> Yes, that's correct. So the launch
• 32:26
  itself was successful and it's an
• 32:28
  important one. It was um I think so
• 32:31
  mission 28 if I remember rightly. I
• 32:33
  haven't got the details in front of me.
• 32:35
  Uh and uh took three astronauts or three
• 32:39
  space people up to the international
• 32:41
  space station. One NASA astronaut and
• 32:44
  two so uh Russian cosminauts. Um so they
• 32:48
  were fed up very successfully to the
• 32:51
  international space station. They docked
• 32:53
  about 3 hours after launch, I think, and
• 32:55
  are now happily um in the space station
• 32:58
  and doing what you do in the space
• 32:59
  station, which is
• 33:01
  >> chess with magnetic chess pieces. That's
• 33:02
  what you do,
• 33:03
  >> among other things. Yeah. Uh but the um
• 33:06
  there is
• 33:07
  >> I wouldn't like I wouldn't like to play
• 33:08
  a Russian in a game of chess. That
• 33:10
  absolutely cream me. They're pretty good
• 33:12
  at that, are they?
• 33:13
  >> I think they are. Yes. That's where a
• 33:15
  lot of the world chess champions have
• 33:17
  come from indeed. Yes.
• 33:20
  Um the so the other side of the coin
• 33:24
  though is that something went wrong with
• 33:28
  the Soyets launch platform. Uh and
• 33:31
  apparently uh a service platform
• 33:35
  uh which uh is needed when you're
• 33:38
  preparing uh the spacecraft for launch
• 33:41
  was not properly stowed. This was about
• 33:43
  20 tons worth I think and that basically
• 33:47
  was blown down into the the flame trench
• 33:52
  which is underneath where the launch
• 33:54
  takes place and uh did a lot of damage.
• 33:58
  Uh so I think Ross Cosmos the Russian
• 34:01
  space agent is playing it down a bit and
• 34:03
  saying oh no we've got all the bits we
• 34:04
  need to mend this
• 34:05
  >> nothing to see here. Well, they've got
• 34:06
  all the bits. They're just absolutely
• 34:08
  shattered and burnt and
• 34:10
  >> Yeah. Well, stuck in a big pit. In a
• 34:12
  pit. Yeah.
• 34:14
  >> Yeah. I mean, this this is journalism
• 34:16
  oneonone, Fred. We've got everything. It
• 34:18
  It's all there.
• 34:20
  >> Yes.
• 34:22
  >> It's just in pieces, that's all. Um and
• 34:25
  some observers, some probably um Russian
• 34:29
  journalists have said, "Yeah, in your
• 34:31
  dreams, this is going to take two years
• 34:32
  to fix."
• 34:33
  >> Yeah.
• 34:33
  >> So, we don't know the answer. It's
• 34:35
  important because that is the only this
• 34:37
  is at Bikonor where the you know the
• 34:39
  main launch site is in Kazakhstan u the
• 34:43
  that is the only launchpad certified for
• 34:47
  uh crew carrying Soyots flights
• 34:50
  >> uh and I think the next crew carrying
• 34:52
  flight is scheduled for the middle of
• 34:54
  next year. So there will be a rush on to
• 34:57
  get that organized. I think the progress
• 35:00
  cargo modules have to be launched from
• 35:03
  there as well and I think there's one of
• 35:04
  those supposed to go up in a couple of
• 35:05
  months time. So there might be uh we
• 35:08
  might see some delays in the program.
• 35:10
  We'll have to watch how that goes. And
• 35:12
  it may even be that SpaceX could come to
• 35:14
  the rescue with with a Crew Dragon up
• 35:17
  there or one of their Dragon cargo
• 35:19
  modules. Let's see what happens.
• 35:21
  >> Wouldn't that be interesting? Yeah. Uh,
• 35:23
  I think they did have a an issue
• 35:25
  recently with some stranded Chinese
• 35:29
  >> That's right.
• 35:30
  >> Yeah. astronauts and and they're still
• 35:32
  up there. Yes.
• 35:33
  >> Yeah. And and now we've had this issue.
• 35:35
  Uh, and of course we've had issues in
• 35:37
  the past with stranded American
• 35:39
  astronauts and
• 35:41
  >> uh the Boeing Star Liner problem. And
• 35:44
  uh, look, these things are going to
• 35:45
  happen. That's that's the nature of
• 35:47
  space. It um, it's it's a high-risk
• 35:50
  environment. you're um
• 35:53
  you're you're playing against the odds a
• 35:55
  lot of the time and
• 35:56
  >> you know um lo losing a chunk of space
• 35:59
  pad's probably a small price to pay as
• 36:02
  you say it's it's a critical launchpad
• 36:04
  and and that that
• 36:06
  >> is the problem they now face getting it
• 36:09
  um back to operational status
• 36:12
  >> because it's the only one they can use
• 36:13
  for human launches but um yeah that's a
• 36:17
  it's an unfort you know the other
• 36:18
  interesting part of this story which is
• 36:20
  is not really about the story itself is
• 36:23
  that um you've got this cooperative
• 36:26
  approach between NASA and Ross Cosmos
• 36:28
  while the political arms of each country
• 36:32
  are at each other's heads over the war
• 36:34
  in Ukraine. So I mean this is just nuts
• 36:37
  isn't isn't that the weirdest thing
• 36:40
  about humanity?
• 36:42
  It is uh to me it it speaks of what can
• 36:46
  be achieved though.
• 36:47
  >> Yeah. You know, why aren't we doing this
• 36:50
  throughout the whole of the whole of uh
• 36:53
  humanity rather than like space in in a
• 36:56
  way has focused people on the absolute
• 37:00
  need to react as though we were one
• 37:03
  species and one, you know, one community
• 37:06
  because in space that's what it is.
• 37:08
  Space is hard. Exactly as you've just
• 37:10
  said. I I've just written 13 chapters of
• 37:13
  my new science fiction novel and um and
• 37:16
  and I go I go exactly with that point
• 37:19
  that humanity's had to put all of its
• 37:21
  differences aside because
• 37:23
  >> yeah,
• 37:24
  >> we've got a bigger problem to deal with
• 37:25
  and they're not here.
• 37:27
  >> Yeah, that's right. Well, I'm glad to
• 37:29
  hear that. It sounds like an interesting
• 37:30
  book.
• 37:31
  >> Um yeah, I'm having a lot of fun with
• 37:33
  it. It's I'm just letting my imagination
• 37:34
  run wild and I I you know, I write on
• 37:37
  the fly. I don't actually sit down with
• 37:39
  a plan or or a novel, you know, board
• 37:42
  with all the scenarios. I I just let my
• 37:45
  brain go, okay, where's this going to go
• 37:47
  next? And sometimes it takes me to some
• 37:49
  weird places. But I've developed this
• 37:50
  character. He's a bit of a uh he's in
• 37:54
  he's from Earth. But uh he's um Yeah,
• 37:57
  I'm having a lot of fun with him. Let's
• 37:59
  just
• 38:00
  >> He doesn't play golf, does he?
• 38:01
  >> No. No, but he's playing silly buggers,
• 38:03
  I think, this game. All right, to
• 38:05
  describe it.
• 38:07
  He's he's going I don't know where I'm
• 38:10
  going to take him, but um so far so
• 38:12
  good. Uh it's been it's been fun to
• 38:14
  write about, but uh I think I think the
• 38:16
  novel will be called The Orb.
• 38:18
  >> Oh,
• 38:19
  >> but um I don't
• 38:22
  that that's that's a working title. I
• 38:23
  might stick with that, but um we'll
• 38:26
  we'll see how it goes. But I don't know
• 38:28
  when that'll be finished. I I'm hoping
• 38:29
  to make it an epic. So it might be, you
• 38:31
  know, or maybe even 20 or 30 pages by
• 38:33
  the time
• 38:37
  Okay.
• 38:38
  >> See how it goes. One of your longer
• 38:40
  novels.
• 38:41
  >> Yes, indeed. Um, but yes, um,
• 38:44
  interesting times with cooperation in
• 38:47
  space and a certain lack of cooperation
• 38:50
  on the surface of the planet. So,
• 38:52
  hopefully they can get that Sawyer's uh,
• 38:54
  space or launchpad all fixed up. You can
• 38:57
  read about that. Uh, it's all over the
• 39:00
  news, but spacnews.com has a good story
• 39:02
  about it. Uh, Fred, I think we're done.
• 39:07
  >> Well, that went quickly.
• 39:08
  >> Did did Right.
• 39:09
  >> Just like one of your novels.
• 39:10
  >> Yeah. Well, yeah, that's right. Um, we
• 39:13
  we'll see. Um, but yes, thank you, Fred.
• 39:16
  It's a pleasure as always.
• 39:18
  >> We'll speak again soon. I hope
• 39:20
  >> we will. Professor Fred Watson,
• 39:21
  astronomer at large. Don't forget to
• 39:23
  visit us online. You can do that at
• 39:25
  various social media spots. Um,
• 39:28
  Facebook, where we have an official page
• 39:30
  and we have a uh a userenerated page.
• 39:34
  the Space Nuts podcast group. Always a
• 39:36
  lot of fun. You can find us on uh
• 39:38
  Instagram as well. And if you go to our
• 39:41
  website, uh maybe consider becoming a
• 39:44
  patron. We would never make it
• 39:46
  mandatory, but uh it's a way of um of
• 39:50
  giving us a little bit of an injection.
• 39:52
  Uh if you would like to help, you can do
• 39:54
  that at Patreon, Supercast, PayPal, or
• 39:57
  there's there's a button that says buy
• 39:59
  me a coffee.
• 40:01
  I love coffee. So, uh, you might want to
• 40:03
  look at that at spacenutspodcast.com.
• 40:07
  Uh, unfortunately, um, Hugh couldn't be
• 40:10
  with us today, um, because he ate
• 40:13
  something that didn't agree with him and
• 40:16
  he's, um, sort of acting like a cryo
• 40:18
  volcano. He's
• 40:21
  lots of crying and lots of volcano.
• 40:24
  Let's just leave it at that. And from
• 40:25
  me, Andrew Dunley,
• 40:27
  thanks for your company. We'll see you
• 40:29
  on the next episode of Space Nuts.
• 40:31
  Bye-bye. Space Nuts.
• 40:32
  >> You'll be listening to the Space Nuts
• 40:35
  podcast
• 40:37
  >> available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
• 40:40
  iHeart Radio, or your favorite podcast
• 40:42
  player. You can also stream on demand at
• 40:45
  byes.com. This has been another quality
• 40:48
  podcast production from byes.com.