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The Church, Jesus, and Refugees · Centrally Speaking

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Centrally speaking, is the Central Schwingfelder Church's podcast.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: It speaks about issues that would be of interest to our society.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: In particular, it addresses how a Christian worldview intersects with Western secular culture.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: In the spirit of the church's founder, we take the perspective of the middlewomen, which is in agreement with the historic Christian Church.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Drake Williams, Minister of Mission and Theology of the Church.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: Our website is www.cscfamily.org.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: We're very pleased today to have Dr.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: David McKinley, Senior Minister from the Central Schwenckfiller Church, to be with us to talk about the topic of the Church, Jesus and Refugees.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: And David has served as a senior minister for 19 years, and he's also been involved with refugee work in Athens, Greece, serving in Athens twice with Tim and Dominus Cyrenides from Operation Mobilization.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: And there he worked with refugees coming in from places in the Middle East as well as Africa.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for joining us again on Centrally Speaking.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the show.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Drake.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's a pleasure to be here.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: The world has spent spent a lot of time paying attention to refugees this past year after the withdrawal of uh US forces in Afghanistan in 2001 and now the invasion of Ukraine in February of 2022.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: Refugees have come front and center to the news.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: And at this point, they're over some 84 million refugees, and then that figure is certainly going to go higher with all the refugees from Ukraine.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then even the film industry has put out several films recently dealing with refugees or those dealing with displacement, loss, and home, loss of home and belonging.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: Many people don't understand that the church has been involved with refugees for many, many years, the church worldwide.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: How important do you think this topic is today for the church to be discussing?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: That's a great question, Drake.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's very important because it deals directly with how we treat our neighbor.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: There are many biblical passages which speak of the sojourner when in your gay, to love the sojourner, to include them in your spiritual practices, which I believe is a means of service to them, to provide for them.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: This is so important because it teaches us how to treat our neighbor.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: I would also say that it's uh it's it's also a reflection of ourselves, because in a large sense we are refugees.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: The Lord Jesus was a refugee.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: The whole idea that this this world is not our real home, the whole story behind the Good Samaritan, uh, brings out refugee type of nuances.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: How about some specific interests that the Central Schweinfelder Church has had in refugees from its past and then also from some of its uh mission interests today?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: Could you speak to some of that?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I think you wouldn't have uh the story of the Schwenkfelders without an understanding of what a refugee is, because the Schweinfelders were refugees.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_03: They left their home uh in the 1700s in the land of Silesia, which is today parts of Poland.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: Then it was parts of Germany.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: They made their way throughout Europe, eventually into the Netherlands and then on to America, uh, with the largest group landing in 1734.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: And so they were a group displaced, looking for a place that they could worship the Lord according to their conscience.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so the very story, the very identity of the Schweinfelders has a refugee understanding a large part of it.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: Then I think because of that, the Schwenfelders have always been sensitive to those who have been displaced who are the sojourner.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_03: For instance, in the mid-70s, our church was heavily involved in bringing two families here to America, fleeing from the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: We were able to help them get here from refugee camps, one in the Philippines, also in Points of California, to set them up here, to provide housing as well as employment, and to make them feel a part of our family.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_03: And those families are still a part of our church today.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's a beautiful story.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: And then even most recently, Drake, through your own contacts and ministry in Eastern Europe, we are seeking to bring a family from the Ukraine over here to help them, to assist them during this time where their homeland is completely up in the air, that they have no home.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_03: The seminary that we have supported in the past, who knows if if the building is even standing right now, but we're looking very much into helping those that are fleeing the Ukraine.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: And you spent those several weeks over in Athens, Greece, with people from the church as well.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: How many went and what was the experience like?
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: My first taste of personal engagement with refugees was in 2010 with the late Dr.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: Rich Craven from Cornerstone Church of Skidback.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: We went to visit Tim and Donna Serenidis.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, they wanted us to visit them and to understand their work so much that they provided for our trip out of their own expense account.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: And we went there and we were able to live with them for several days.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: We were able to interact with refugees.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: There was a man from Sudan that was there as a political exile.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: There were many refugees from northern Africa, from Afghanistan and Syria and other places in the world because Athens is kind of a refugee crossroad.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: Many come out of northern Africa and the Middle East and they go through Greece to find then safe haven in other points in Europe.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: And when you were there in uh Athens, were you seeing people who had come off of boats and were they living in temporary shelter?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, how did you encounter refugees there in Athens?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: So in 2010, it was an exploratory trip, just really just observing everything that Tim and Donna did.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: And then in 2014, I led a group from our church at Central.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: We went to Athens and spent a week, 10 days working with Tim and Donna.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: And that was in 2014.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_03: I think that there were seven or eight of us that went.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: These were folks that would come into Athens, come off of boats.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe, maybe they had taken, for instance, personal rafts from Turkey to one of the islands, that whole area, and I think it's the Aegean that lies between Turkey and Greece.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: They'd be brought to Athens.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_03: They would be placed in the Olympic village, which is nothing what it was like when the when the games were held there.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_03: But the Olympic village became a refugee city.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: The accommodations were not very nice.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_03: Had problems with cleanliness, it had problems with infection, disease.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: There were not a lot of activities for the children to do.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so we were a team that went and we engaged the young people.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: We also engaged adults.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: We served food through the second evangelical church of Athens and the first evangelical church of Athens.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_03: There was a food ministry that we partook in.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: We shared the gospel.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: We would witness interpersonally.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_03: It was a life-changing trip.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: Even as you're talking right now, I'm sure you can picture some of the faces of those that you worked with.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: And any words come to mind of those faces that you saw?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I remember one story in particular.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: Matt Seiped and I were playing games with some of the children, and there was a Middle Eastern man that was standing over to the side.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: And as any concerned parent, you know, keeping an eye on their children, especially children that are around all types of people that they don't know.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: And as this father was observing us playing soccer or tag or whatever type of games that we were playing with the kids, I looked over at him after a while, and he put his hand on his chest and just looked at us, which is really the universal sign of gratitude.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_03: And that was very touching.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: Here was a man that, no doubt, had lived a very stressful life for the last several weeks, maybe even months.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: And here was a group that was enabling his children to have a good time for a few minutes, and he was grateful for that.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: As you think about your own uh refugee and ministry experience, you had already talked about Jesus being a refugee himself.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: Were some of those feelings of Jesus being a refugee?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: Were these some of the things that were motivators for you as you served among refugees in Greece?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yes.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: I have to admit, I'm not so sure that I thought of these to begin with because I just really kept my eyes wide open and wanted to absorb any and every circumstance.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: I had no idea what I was going to be going into experiencing.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: But it's not until I really reflected on the experience.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I thought about Jesus came to his own, but his own did not receive him, John chapter 1.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_03: Or, you know, even coming to his own hometown, he said a prophet is not without honor except in his hometown.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: And even his own family was hesitant to follow his ministry.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_03: His brothers were antagonistic toward him.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the life of Christ and the rejection of his own people.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: That spoke volumes.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_03: Also, speaking personally, it's not until you understand the depth of human rejection, and say, for instance, the story of the Good Samaritan, that you understand the value that God puts upon human life.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_03: So oftentimes we might do things out of a sense of well, what benefit is it of mine?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: We might help the little old lady across the street, especially if she has a bank account of about two million dollars.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_03: But it's not until we can do something for someone that they cannot repay us one dime.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: They don't even speak our language in order to communicate a sense of gratitude.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_03: But you understand God values life.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: Human life is made in the image of God.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: And it's a tremendous experience to be able to do something for another human life that's made in his image.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: How are some of these traits of Jesus being an alien or an exile or a foreigner or a castaway?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: How are they seen as you reflect on the uh life of Jesus as a minister?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: The the whole concept of unconditional love, Jesus said, the poor you will always have with you.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_03: You know, you read the story of Ruth and how you know she was left to fend for herself and Naomi.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: And Ruth was a Moabitus.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: You know, she she was she was a refugee of sorts.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I think just the whole biblical testimony of impressing upon my own heart that faith must be proactive.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: And if we are to love the Lord with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength, then we're also to love our neighbor as ourselves.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I live a pretty padded life.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_03: I live in a nice house in Schwanksville.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: I have a wooded backyard and I have a dog and plenty of food in my refrigerator.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_03: I have everything that I could ever want or need.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: But it's not until being put in positions to do something for someone else that doesn't have a fraction of that.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_03: I heard a statistic once that said that if you have food in your refrigerator, clothes in your closet, and any money and a roof over your head, bed to sleep in, and any money in a bank account that you are among the world's richest 1%.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: And it just is very convicting to know that there are so many people in this world that don't.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_03: One of my trips to Athens, we encountered a man from Afghanistan who had a mechanics repair shop, and so he fixed automobiles, and the Taliban had been provoking him for many weeks, maybe even months.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: They wanted him to pay a certain amount to them, and when he did not, they burned his shop to the ground, and so he had to leave his country.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: He was an economic exile.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure that if he would not have left, that it could very well have been that he could have lost his life, especially if he was a Christian.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not sure in my conversation with him that he was a Christian, but I do know that he was treated as an outcast and persecuted just for his economic independence, and then had to leave his homeland if he was going to support his family.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: It takes bravery to travel thousands of miles, leave your homeland, and go to a place that you don't know the language so that your family would survive.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: You were speaking about Jesus earlier coming to people that were not his own and being rejected.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: We're in the Holy Week now as we're talking and together for centrally speaking.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: One of those cries of rejection or being an outcast is the very famous word on the cross, Aloy, Awei, Lamas Bothony, my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: Can you tell us more about what Jesus might mean when he's crying out in that way?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I had the pleasure of preaching a message on this statement a few weeks ago.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: My understanding is that is Jesus speaking Aramaic.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: They are the words that are translated right there in the scripture, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: First of all, Jesus is quoting from Psalm 22.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: And Psalm 22 is a prayer for deliverance.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: And so, in one sense, Christ is on the cross, he's at the height of his suffering, and he's quoting scripture.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_03: And if you read through that psalm, you know that there are clear messages of hope and trust in God, even when circumstances are not encouraging.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, they're quite discouraging, the feeling of isolation, the feeling of being alone.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not until those feelings that we're completely alone.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, uh I think it was Robert Godfrey that said that that is the feeling of every Christian when we're in some sort of trauma or the feeling of being persecuted or suffering, is that we feel apart from God.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_03: Because we think, well, if I walk with God, He's always with me and everything's gonna be A-OK.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: But it's not until our comfort is touched or our sense of ease is squeezed that we're forced to say, God, where are you?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_03: Where are you?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we're like uh the baby that uh is unsure, you know, his mother steps away for a moment, and then they want to make sure that they're not alone.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's our knee-jerk human reaction.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: So it is reflective of Christ's darkest hour, but it ends with a hope for deliverance, and the Lord was delivered.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: He gave his life, he died, but he was raised from the dead, and the Father did that.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_03: Some have said this is where Jesus experienced the true sense of hell, that it was on the cross, that being isolated, separated from God, that's what hell is eternal separation from God.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_03: When Jesus uttered those words, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: It was at that point, many theologians believe that the weight of the sin of the world was upon his shoulders.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: And because God is holy and just and perfect, he cannot have communion with sin.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_03: So the Father turned away.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: He had to be separate from sin, and Jesus, who knew no sin, became sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: 2 Corinthians chapter 5.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's those two senses behind uh the statement, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: Are there other places within the Easter story broadly, whether it be during the Holy Week or the crucifixion that speak about refugees or those who have lost everything that might be of encouragement to someone who has lost a lot?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's a great question.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think um everything that was familiar and comfortable to Jesus went out the door after he sang that hymn and then went to be in the garden.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: It was in the garden when the abandonment started, not physically, but certainly emotionally, when the disciples fell asleep, and Jesus would come back and say, Can you not tarry with me one hour?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: So Jesus felt alone then.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus felt very alone when the soldiers came, and one, he was betrayed by Judas.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: Now, I believe that Jesus knew exactly what Judas was going to do, and but by the same token, Judas was a part of the twelve.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_03: Judas had witnessed the miracles and had been in the boat and had been one of the twelve, and so certainly to be betrayed by one of your own was especially hurtful and isolating.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: Having to go through trials alone, mock trials that were designed to convict Jesus without a sense of fairness, and that even his own friend, uh, Jesus was within earshot of Peter denying him three times before the rooster crowed.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: And Jesus called that.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: He forecasted that.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: One of his three closest friends denied even knowing him.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: I think a sense of isolation, a sense of betrayal, a sense of losing everything.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: And then even when Jesus was flogged, which a lot of people didn't even survive that ordeal, but Jesus did.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: And then when he went to the cross, you know, they ripped his clothes off of him.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: And refugees only have that, those things that they can carry or what they wear.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: And if you see some of the video of, you know, these people that come off of the rafts onto some of these Greek islands, human refugee has nothing but what they can carry.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_03: It just is a very sad situation.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: But it's exactly the picture of Christ in his final hours.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: Those are all kinds of pictures of of Jesus, in my opinion.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: My guess is that some who are listening to us today uh have never been refugees or don't haven't had that refugee experience themselves, but some might be feeling lost in some way.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: How does the Easter story speak to the one who is lost?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I think that the Easter story speaks volumes to a person who feels lost.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: One, God in the scriptures is described as a refuge, that He is our dwelling place throughout all generations.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's uh in Deuteronomy chapter 27, I believe.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: There is uh Psalm 46, our God is a refuge and a strength and a very present help in time of trouble.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_03: I can't imagine taking my family and moving my family out of state with nothing but maybe our vehicle and what we can grab up and put in a suitcase really quick.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_03: But even that would seem like uh luxurious to some refugees that can't even do that.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: The luxury of a piece of bread and a bottle of water, which some of your contacts in the Ukraine, Drake, see the expressions on the faces of those that they deliver bread to, the whole idea of God providing and God Himself is a home.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: That I think speaks a lot to those who are lost, who have no home.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_03: God is their home.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: One experience that I had when I was a college student, one of my roommates was a young man from inner city Memphis, and his dad had spent most of his life in prison, uh, having been a part of a robbery that went south.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: James said, Dave, I grew up without a dad, so I had to discover that God was my dad.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_03: God was my heavenly father.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: I think for the refugee to discover that God is your home, God is your refuge, that God is your dwelling place.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's how I think the Lord, you know, the God of the Bible, speaks to those who have been displaced.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: I know you'd be talking about some of these themes in the next few days as we come to Monday, Thursday, Good Friday, and Easter.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have some things to say about the Holy Week services at the church that you might want to pass along to our listeners?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: I think along with those of you know those ideas that I gave you, I think one of my favorite verses in the Bible, of course, is Jesus' great invitation that's found in Matthew 11.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: Come to me all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I'm gentle and humble in heart.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_03: You'll find rest for your souls.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: For my yoke is easy, my burden is light.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: You know, Jesus is our resting place, which goes right along with what I've said.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: Now we have a host of services this week on Thursday.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: Monday Thursday, we have our tenebrae service at 7.30 p.m.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: It is also known as the service of shadows.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's a reflection upon the passion of Christ and what he went through in his final hours.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: It is one of, if not my most favorite service of the year because it's so different than all the other services that we do.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: So 7.30 on Thursday night, that will also contain communion.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: We hope that you would come and celebrate the Lord's Supper with us.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: Friday at noon, we have a prayer service.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: We will be reading selections from Caspar Schwenkfeld's Passion and Prayer booklet.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: We hope that you're able to make that.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: Then on Sunday at 7 a.m., we have our Easter dawn service on the front steps of the church.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: I will be preaching that service.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_03: You might want to come.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh if you do, bring your jacket so you're not cold, that you can uh endure a 45-minute service outdoors.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: At 9 o'clock, we have Easter service that's going to have a very unique message from our own Reverend Dr.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: Drake Williams.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that you'll really enjoy it.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: I won't spill the beans, but a very special service there, a unique message, I would say.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: And then 1045, of course, is our contemporary worship service and our fellowship hall and Reverend Julian Scavetti will be bringing the message then.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: David, thank you for all the work that you do with those who are lost as well as those who have been refugees and pastoring a refugee church.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: Wish you a happy Easter.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: You too, Drake.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.