Latest / Embedded / How to Lead Through the Storm - Embedded Conversations With Gary Hughes. Ep. 2

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How to Lead Through the Storm - Embedded Conversations With Gary Hughes. Ep. 2 · Embedded

0:04
Hi everyone and welcome to episode two of the Embedded Podcast.
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This time I'm really delighted to introduce Gary Hughes.
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Gary's a highly respected healthcare leader who I first met way back in 2015,
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when I worked with a local group,
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in Bracknell and Ascot where they were looking to develop a GP federation and Gary and I have remained,
0:28
good friends and in touch really since that day.
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For those of you that don't know Gary, he brings a wealth of experience in system transformation.
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He's got a really strong focus on governance, on leadership and on workforce
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development in and around general practice.
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He's absolutely known and I'm going to talked to him about this this morning
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for advocating float versus swim mindset and in leadership where he promotes
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a really calm sustainable approach particularly when people are under pressure,
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and he likes to challenge close thinking in favor of really open and adaptive leadership.
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As a part of that Gary has also developed practical tools like his seven pillars of business governance,
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and to support effective decision making and he's very passionate as you'll
1:18
see today about culture, about getting the recruitment right,
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about retention and primary care.
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He's worked right across NHS organisations and he worked with industry.
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He's also well known for working with industry partners to really try and help
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improve our collaboration and alignment between the health leaders and the suppliers.
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So good morning Gary and how are you?
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Looking very Yeah. Yeah. It's for my business. Orange is sort of one of the
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brand colors. Okay. That's not why I'm wearing it. But yeah.
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Thanks for having me on here. And.
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That's a lovely intro so yeah that's how i know you i mean that that's the guy
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that i that i know and and love and and very much respect yeah,
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and it when i was looking back it's hard to believe where's the time gone 10 years yeah it's mad i
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know and the best bit is that we've remained in touch as you say good friends
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and absolutely yeah totally totally yeah it's yeah lovely intro so So yeah,
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I'm delighted to be on here.
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Delighted that you're doing a podcast because I know you've got so much to say
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for the industry and for primary care and the wider NHS.
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So yeah, delighted that you're doing this.
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I think it's brilliant. I think we're in for real, before I dive into a few
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of the questions I've got for you, I think we're in for a really interesting time,
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ahead, particularly around this development of integrated neighbourhood teams
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and the impact that that could have on general practice. Are we losing primary care networks?
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Are INTs part? We still don't know. It's not really clear. Yeah, yeah.
2:55
I'd agree. And I thought for a long time as well that so much of where this
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ends up could be in the hands of primary care if they just grasp that metal.
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Totally. But, you know, they haven't done it enough. We'll see if they do go forward.
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I know from all our conversations, you'll agree with this thing I'm about to say.
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I think for general practice, the opportunity around integrated neighbourhood
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teams needs to be something they lead and develop and don't allow to happen to them.
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Because if it happens to them, goodness knows where we'll end up.
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Absolutely. I quite agree. There are pockets you see around the country of whether
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it's federations or really good private networks and alliances where they have grasped that.
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And they are doing really great things it's just not enough but,
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i like that phrase pockets i used that phrase a lot pockets of brilliance yeah there are,
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and often we don't hear enough about them yeah absolutely absolutely if you
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get on linkedin and we're both only here we are,
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you see those people on there but they're not all of them i mean not everybody
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does linkedin but you do see them and there are there are some great people
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i know you work with a lot of them as well so you know there are some great
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people that's a brilliant entry point
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to where i want to go with you because it was actually one of your posts on linkedin,
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that really sparked my first question where you talked and you really contrasted,
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high pressure leadership situations where people often feel,
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like we must swim um with your view is it's actually more realistic to float
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as your mindset because easy some of the pressure and it can improve performance
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do you think we could unpack how leaders,
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can adopt that float mentality in real time and whether you see it as a stepping stone towards swimming
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or is it a valuable standalone approach yeah and you know i'll give the background
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to all of this i started sort of putting posts short blocks on linkedin back in 2017.
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And i tend to sort of write on what i'm seeing in an experience that's going
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on in sort of primary care.
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So that throw or swim was a recent one, not well, not too long ago that I did.
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And it was actually about my situation. I was talking up in management and practice
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London and I hadn't done a big talk for a while and it was on actually on seven
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key ingredients of a successful business in primary care, so very relevant.
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I hadn't spoken to a big audience for quite a while and I was sort of quite
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They keyed up about it. And I wanted to just make sure that I was giving myself
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every chance to succeed.
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So I sort of thought, okay, I don't have to swim.
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You know, I can actually, you know, it doesn't have to be just,
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it's going to be a sink or swim. I could just float. And actually for me, I can't swim.
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So to use that sort of approach analogy was sort of quite useful.
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But I think bringing it back to where I suppose we are in primary care in this
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conversation, I see all too often that primary care leaders,
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general practice, you know, they want to go for the great biggest goal.
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And they they're thinking there straight away but actually you don't have to
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go that far you know don't shoot the moon just don't it hasn't got to be sink
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or swim there's that in the middle
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we can just float just get started just take some of the pressure off your team.
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And you you know taking some of the pressure off,
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and just start smaller let's get started and then you can take the next step
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and then you can take the next step so that as i say it was a you know an analogy that's a great analogy.
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And i use a lot with the industry that the industry often wants to be a whole
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system a whole integrated care system we're going to change it,
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and i'm like that's really tough i haven't got an example of that anywhere so
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i'm like you i'd rather start with one practice on maybe one primary care network
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and then we do a really great job there and we scale it up
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to a place footprint and then of course if you do a really good job at place
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the other place footprints potentially want to follow suit. So I really like that as an approach.
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And interesting what you said about industry there. I think,
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you know, I spent two years working in market access.
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And yes, industry would come to you with, uh, bigger budgets than primary care
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are used to and bigger ideas and plans.
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And it always felt that, you know, you'd be dealing with one person in that
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one pharma company, but it just felt like there were bigger forces behind saying,
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we've got to get something big. We've got to get something big.
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Start with one practice, start with one PCM.
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And actually, once you've got something evidence working there,
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it's going to be easier to build that.
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And that touches really on, there are a lot of people who are very close-minded
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and very fixated on, I've got to speak to the ICB and I've got to get something system-wide.
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And I know that you warn constantly against leaders with closed minds.
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And I've seen you highlight that what that will end up in is it stifles innovation,
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it drains morale completely because people can't get that level of success.
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So for you, what are the key habits or practices that you recommend leaders
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use to kind of really guard against that rigidity and foster that much more
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open-minded nature to develop in a mature organisation?
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Yeah, and it's interesting. I can see, you know, you've been reading the posts,
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done your homework. I do. You know, I've written about...
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That combating the closed-mindedness because in my time in general practice,
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and it's not just something you see in general practice but in general practice
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i've often seen gp partners and they tend to be the ones that are,
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primarily that taking the leadership roles yeah they may be you know pcn clinical
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directors federation leads sitting on icbs,
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but they are often quite closed And I don't know whether that's because of,
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and I'm going to be honest here, I don't know whether it's because of ignorance.
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They don't understand what they should be doing.
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I don't know whether it's because of arrogance. You know, they think they know
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best and that does happen.
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And, you know, also that sense of entitlement.
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I'm a GP with professional qualification. I'm in that position.
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I don't need to be doing anything else other than what I think.
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You know what i think you need to do to combat it and what i you know believe you need to do combat it,
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is that actually make sure that you're looking out for different perspectives
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and opinions from from your team your fellow stakeholders that you're working
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with because i always found you know in leadership and management positions i still do,
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somebody on the front line and that might be a receptionist on the front line
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will have a different view to you and probably going to be seeing something you're not going to see,
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so absolutely and if we take that said industry,
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you'll if i'm in industry bringing something into primary care to pilot something
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yes i've got to be speaking to the gp partner the pc and cd,
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but actually if i'm going to be putting something in to trial something what
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do the receptionists think of how this is going to work totally,
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What do they think?
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What does the nurse think? Because I can remember working in EmTech Access and,
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I'd be working with clients and they'd be wanting to speak to the GP partner
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because they felt it was the GP that was going to be managing the long-term
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condition patients, whether it was inhalers or whatever it was.
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And when you said to them, actually, the nurses do all of that,
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it was, ah, ah, didn't know that.
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So make sure you're getting to speak to other people.
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We'll maybe get you back to have another conversation with me at some point
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in the future, because this is a hot topic for me.
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That bit about, we target the visible stakeholders, but we miss the invisible stakeholders.
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And they're the ones that actually do the work.
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And they'll be the ones that go, no, no, no, we're not doing that because.
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And i see it a lot where um we think we're you know the the gp or the,
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the lead is going to make a decision that you know we benefit from and then
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suddenly it all comes down like a stack of dominoes because they then go and
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talk to the team internally who we've not
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given a position to we've not engaged them they don't understand what we're
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doing and you meet all the blocks and barriers it's a it's a really great example
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that you've just given there,
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and i love that term invisible stakeholders you know probably pinch that and
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use that myself you're very well you know,
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it is about making sure that you're asking others and getting their perspectives
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and opinions totally you know i think i think you can't be content with what
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you know and what you've always done,
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you know you've got to be open to that new ideas new thoughts that others are
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going to bring and i think you know i sort of said about whether it's arrogance
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entitlement ignorance as well you've got to be willing to challenge your own
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thinking as well you've got to be
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willing to do that and and you know i think that,
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i'm saying this very much thinking of general practice but if i'm farmer industry
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thinking i've got to bring something in you've got to be doing the same things
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again because what you think might work.
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Possibly isn't good. It's where I think discovery before design becomes the
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language. You have to take the time to sit down with Gary and actually get him
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to map his whole pathway in its entirety.
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Where are the blocks, the barriers, the backlogs, the steps,
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the workarounds, because the pathway doesn't flow correctly,
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the money doesn't flow correctly.
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You have to understand all of that before you start proposing a new approach.
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And this is where, again, another one of your.
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Articles you talked about um i forget this right simplicity plus preparation
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equals success it really,
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reminded me there about that bit about don't make it overly complex because
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the minute you start to make it complex it will dilute the clarity and then it dilutes the delivery.
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How do you strike the balance between delivering simple powerful messages but
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don't oversimplify it and certainly avoid making it overly complicated yeah
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and you know that the background to that to a particular post that I spoke about there.
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It was, funnily enough, it was another talk where I, at Raven,
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and I just went into it thinking that, you know, I had everything right and
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actually it was way too complicated.
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I had too much content, too much information, and it didn't go very well.
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From my point of view, it didn't go very well.
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But I suppose, you know, bringing this back to what's relevant for this conversation is again,
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this and it links to nicely to this quote versus swim mindset that we talked
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we don't put up with there is,
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if you've got an idea and a project and you know might be industry have the
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idea but it might be you might be in general perhaps have an idea don't complicate
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it you know don't over complicate it and i i see this as industry when they pitch things with,
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slide decks that are too big too much information yeah what's the headline how's
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it going to benefit patients.
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Just give me that, you know. that's one of your other posts. You called it, um.
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They'll come back to me at will small nails oh yeah yeah we've talked about that you don't
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come with something you're back to that don't bring me 400 slides no i'm gonna
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glaze over i'm not gonna get it it needs to be shot and sharp i have a phrase
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with industry a lot please don't bore us get to the chorus
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yeah tell me what i need to know tell me what you need me to do and i'm much
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more likely to engage than if you just deluge me and a load of clinical information
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and a load of slides where I'm then left working out what you want me to do.
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Yeah. It's not going to work. No, absolutely. You know, if I were industry going
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into talk, pitch to, you know, GPs or anybody from primary care or the NHS,
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At the moment, tell me how you're going to help my workload. Absolutely.
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Don't tell me how much money you're going to save me. Tell me how you're going
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to help my workload. Tell me how that patient is only going to come in once
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a year, not three times a year. That's what I want to know.
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So tell me that. Don't go through 10 slides and then tell me that.
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Tell me that right at the start. I'm going to help your workload. I'm going to cut it by.
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I find that fascinating that you've zoomed in on that because what you don't
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know is that's the top ask I get from my NHS customer base.
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Scott, what have you got in your armory right now project-wise that would reduce my workload?
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I had one of my really, really good GPs up in North Warwickshire actually say
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to me about three or four months ago, Scott, see what you're about to pitch
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me, is it going to reduce my workload? Because if it's not, I probably don't need the pitch.
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I was just blunt as that, not to be rude, not being aggressive or anything like
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that, just saying, look, where I am right now,
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if this doesn't impact my workload it's probably not going to make it onto the
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things that i'm going to spend time thinking about so it's really interesting
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that you've picked up on that as well
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absolutely it's you know it's when the time i had in industry it was always
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the thing that we were telling our clients as well how they you know want to
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know how you're going to help their workloads,
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i think knowing your audience as you know uh,
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the industry speaking to the gps primary care however of it's going to be understanding
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your audience as well is important because you could be speaking to maybe three or four GPs.
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And you might get one who's all about the patient yes so because they're not
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all the same but they all they are all struggling with workload but if you can
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say i'm going to help with your workload by this,
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but i'm also going to help the patients because there are some gps and some
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clinicians that are very very patient focused so if you can right at the top,
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i'm going to help the workload i'm going to help the patients with this benefit
17:02
again i think it's a really interesting,
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um conversation that we're having here, because again, one of the things I talk
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about a lot, and it's certainly embedded in the book, there's a whole piece on it.
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It's just what you've described that i um picked this i stole this from one
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of my customers a lovely gp by the name of yusuf sony yusuf up in hartleypool
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in stockton he was the first one that kind of said this is how i'm thinking
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scott i thought i'm going to adapt that,
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and i turned it into what we call the perfect triangle and gary you've pretty
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much just explained the perfect triangle which is at the top of the triangle
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what's the win for the patient,
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are we improving the patient outcome or does it mean that they don't need as
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many appointments can we do more a more holistic what are we doing for the patient
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right at the top of the triangle then down in the bottom corner what's the win for the nhs,
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is it fewer appointments in general practice is it fewer referrals to secondary
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care is it fewer non-elective admissions are we tackling inequalities are we
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closing the unwarranted variation out of our pathway are we eliminating that what are we doing,
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and then once you've done that and explained that really really well then have
18:05
the dialogue about what is the win for you as a collaborating partner,
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in this project but that's got to be tied back to what's the win for the patient
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and if you do that and do it really well it stops you leading with the product
18:18
yeah absolutely definitely definitely you know and none,
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none of what you mentioned talks about how much it saves money for the system or because,
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well gp if you're talking to primary care they're not interested they don't see that money no.
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So That's somebody else's budget, so it's not really their responsibility,
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and they therefore don't see it as their responsibility.
18:41
Yeah, no, so, I mean, they're great points, and the triangle,
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I think I've heard you speak about that before, and I think it's a great model to bear in mind.
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Again, you have a model around the seven pillars of business governance.
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I don't expect you to cover all seven for a second.
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And I remember the post where you talked about strengthening business,
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um practices i think it was a half hour webinar that that um,
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i sat and watched is there one or two of those that you could highlight maybe
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share a practical example of how they tangibly improve,
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decision making and the leadership within general practice you maybe got a couple
19:18
of nuggets up your sleeve for
19:19
us yeah definitely and it's interesting the seven pillars framework it's,
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for for many years now i've worked with practices pcns and i've worked on the
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seven pillars of clinical governance which is a really well-known model,
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but what i do very much is about making your practice pcn federation and the
19:38
best business it can be so i wanted something that i could work on that aspect of business
19:44
so the seven pillars are organizational structures effective leadership regulatory
19:49
compliance financial management,
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risk management information governance and stakeholder engagement,
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Now, to give you your two examples.
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Let's give you two that I think are very relevant for today.
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And the first one is risk management.
20:08
All too often, I see primary care networks and practices, and I'm working with
20:14
one quite closely at the moment, where they're not aware of all of their risks.
20:20
And certainly at the moment there i think the risks for practice a pc and a
20:26
federation are higher than they've ever been
20:27
yeah but most leaders they're not aware of all their risks they're certainly
20:31
not actively recording them or measuring them and if they're not doing that
20:35
they can't then be doing everything they can to mitigate them um.
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You know that as i said i think they're higher than they've ever been at the moment yeah so.
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What I've suggested or what I suggest PCMs and practices do is they make this
20:52
one of the seven pillars using risk management.
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It's one of the key things they do.
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And they list all the risks. Yep. They list what they're doing to mitigate them.
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And they're reviewing this every six months. Certainly, I'm sure,
21:08
you know, we'd say it, Scott, businesses that we've worked in,
21:10
bigger businesses, they do this. They have their risk register.
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They have their risk register and they've got their eyes on it they're reviewing
21:17
it and they're managing it and it i mean informs your decisions as well as you
21:21
know where you've got to focus your resources you know what you're gonna what
21:24
you've got to be making your decisions around um,
21:28
and i think that one of the best examples i can give on a risk at the moment
21:33
for general practice is succession planning yeah we have issues with you know
21:38
there's an exodus of staff
21:40
difficult to get new staff in if a practice loses their long-term condition
21:45
nurse their senior partner or as i always say their practice manager,
21:50
they have got a huge problem yeah so you know the risk register major thing
21:57
looking at all of those risks and a big one would be succession planning yeah
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if i were to bring this back to what we're talking about with the audience,
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i'm starting something new,
22:07
We'll start that project with, okay, what are the risks as well?
22:12
What have we got to be watching out for and what have we got to manage?
22:15
And industry will probably be a better place to take the lead because it's a
22:19
more formal sort of business activity.
22:22
They've got more experience in, but, you know, that's sort of one thing.
22:26
And then shall I give you a second example? You can. Just one quick thing to pick up there with you.
22:32
I mean, I remember you and I doing that way back in 2015-16,
22:36
developing a risk register for the new GP federation and a lot of it was around
22:40
what happens if one of the board of directors leaves or
22:42
the practices don't and we sign a contract and the practices don't engage and
22:46
we put in place mitigation to do that,
22:48
that was because one of the things that we were really careful about was always having a contingency,
22:54
so there was an ability to pull people together so something's come up that
22:57
we didn't anticipate or couldn't have anticipated when we were developing our
23:02
risk register but now it's here so we don't ignore it we have to manage it so i think,
23:07
you know again you're really nailing down,
23:09
this way of having simple but highly effective governance and process in place
23:15
that protects the business because it's what most people forget that if you
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don't protect the business suddenly the thing that pays all the bills isn't
23:21
there anymore absolutely absolutely.
23:24
Yeah i think it would be great mate go on yeah well the other example is the
23:28
last pillar stakeholder engagement ah huge um you know We've just had the 10-year plan.
23:34
We've got to be building neighborhoods.
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We've been talking about this for years, but again, we've got to build neighborhoods.
23:43
So that stakeholder engagement is so, so important. Now, we should have been
23:47
doing this for ages, but most areas haven't. We said at the beginning,
23:51
there's pockets that have.
23:53
But I'd say, you know, take the lead. If primary care are listening to this,
23:57
take the lead or you're going to be told what to do.
24:00
But if I'm outside and I'm industry, I still think there's a way that you can
24:05
start to help and shape an influence.
24:07
Have conversations with, you know, ICBs, PCNs, federations.
24:12
You can still help and play your part to sort of bring, you know,
24:15
you might, it might be more, you're facilitating it to happen.
24:19
But yeah, so, you know, I think where I've seen it works well,
24:25
it's usually because it's a GP partner that's maybe leading a federation or
24:30
a PCN or they've got a position on an ICB.
24:34
Quite often you might see it's a manager. You know, there are very,
24:37
very capable practice managers in this federation. Yes, there are.
24:41
And I'm sure industry, you know, are talking to them. If you're not,
24:44
find out who they are because they make things happen. Yep.
24:48
And, you know, that would be the other thing. I'd be finding out who you need
24:51
to speak to, and I'd be having those conversations as well.
24:55
Help build these new neighbourhood providers that we need. Totally.
24:58
I mean, that actually does really beautifully enter.
25:02
My last question for you which is all around collaboration because i know you've
25:05
done lots of this and i really want to see if i can get you to um open up to,
25:10
to the audience about it so,
25:13
i i know from our work from work that i've i've heard about from you and you
25:19
absolutely help people navigate change the governance the workforce challenges
25:24
all the things that we've talked about today but from your perspective,
25:28
what does great collaboration look like when it's between health system leaders
25:33
and then the pharma the medtech and the device companies and then if there was
25:37
one thing that you say they get wrong most often what is it what goes,
25:42
yeah and you know if we're saying great collaboration between the parties that
25:48
you've mentioned it could be i think great,
25:50
collaboration in anything you know great collaboration looks the same but i
25:55
think when it's great and i'm sitting here as i'm talking about this and i can
25:59
think of a federation that I'm working with that have some great collaboration going on their ICS.
26:05
Okay. And also some practices that are very good at working together.
26:10
They've got, when it's great, it looks like this. They've got a shared goal.
26:14
Yep. Different parties, the benefits they might get might be different,
26:18
but they all share the same goal. And it might be that we're going to,
26:22
you know, it might be that we're going to reduce patient visits by a third.
26:26
You know, that might be what an industry partner might want to do as a goal.
26:32
And that might be that the practice wants as a goal.
26:36
But the benefits, you know, the industry partner is going to get their products.
26:40
In, used, tested, trialed, whatever it'll be, the practice is going to reduce
26:44
their workload. So you might get the benefits, but they're sharing their goal.
26:47
So I think grade looks like you've got a shared goal.
26:50
The patient is going to be involved in at the heart. You know,
26:53
I think too often when I was working in the industry, that wasn't considered.
26:58
And too often working in primary care, it's not considered either.
27:02
But, you know, patients, get them at the heart, find out what they want,
27:05
what they need, what they can bring to this.
27:08
You're also going to have great communication. When the collaboration's working,
27:12
you're going to have great communication.
27:14
And that means that it's going to be easy. It's going to be open.
27:17
It's going to be transparent.
27:19
It's not as often happens in general practice.
27:22
It's constant, frequent, you know, in the way. But it's just going to be easy, open, transparent.
27:28
And most importantly, all of this is going to mean that you've got trust.
27:32
You know, you've got trust. And again, I think often the relationships exist
27:37
between whether it's industry and primary care or within primary care.
27:42
And the relationships are an uneasy happiness, let's just say. That's how they are.
27:49
I think the thing that goes wrong most of the time is that at the start,
27:55
there's a lack of understanding of each other's world.
27:58
And we said about industry doesn't often know exactly how primary care is working with these.
28:03
So I think the start is a lack of understanding of each other's world.
28:07
Within the NHS, that can be the same as well, because, you know,
28:10
secondary care doesn't understand primary care by each other.
28:14
And then you don't have that shared goal, that one thing that we're all aiming for.
28:18
And you then find that you've got poor communication. And then there's usually,
28:23
as often as well, there's an insufficient sort of commitment to this in terms
28:28
of the time and the resources I'm going to put in. And they all feed off one another.
28:32
Yes. And ultimately, there's no trust.
28:34
But, you know, if you say, what's the one thing? It starts with,
28:38
I don't have an understanding of each other's world.
28:41
Start with that. Get to know each other. And then make your goal.
28:44
And then all these other things will come.
28:46
That's the discovery before design bit for that. have to discover you have to
28:49
sit down and get to know each other because i often there's a great word you use there trust,
28:55
i often think if you take the time at the beginning to put the foundations and
28:58
then you build the trust the trust leads to the collaboration and the collaboration
29:02
leads to the outcome if you don't put the foundations and the trust in place,
29:06
well then as you say got different vision of what this looks like different
29:09
outcomes different and it just doesn't work you watch unravel in front of you.
29:14
I'd also add one extra bit again at the risk of you disagreeing with me,
29:18
i i also think that you really need to understand and work on the nhs agenda
29:24
not on your product agenda it's got to be nhs agenda that we're working with
29:28
because if you're not addressing a known problem for the nhs
29:32
they're not going to engage yeah i i and i think you're absolutely right i completely agree
29:37
and i don't know what what you'll say to this but you know my time working in market access yeah
29:43
i always felt that to get industry to work on the nhs agenda or aligned with it wasn't difficult,
29:50
there's plenty of scope there and you know that is whether it's population health
29:56
would be a good thing at the moment.
29:58
Uh or whether it's you know workload that we said about it's actually not difficult
30:02
but they didn't industry doesn't didn't seem to always take that as a starting
30:06
point right what's the agenda i want to fit with that do you find that as well
30:10
i do find that i had a really interesting conversation,
30:13
uh october last year with um again And one of my lovely,
30:18
uh customers uh dr katherine patrick katherine's a gp down in somerset she's
30:23
also the part-time medical director for somerset foundation trust for primary
30:28
care so the vertically integrated model and katherine said,
30:31
just what you've said literally there she said i have no problem i can still
30:35
remember she sat with her hand up she'd have no problem with industry coming in
30:39
and asking me as many questions as they want about what's on my agenda but then
30:43
they've got to pick something off that agenda that we can work on and collaborate
30:47
on together if you do that and do it well i'm going to engage,
30:50
if you don't if you come in and you're not really interested in what's on my
30:54
agenda and it becomes about your agenda
30:56
five minutes after you've gone out the door i'm going to have forgotten we've
30:59
even met and you've just pretty much summarized that you have to work on there
31:03
you've got to do the discovery before the design we're going to have that shared
31:06
vision and shared goal or it isn't going to go anywhere yeah,
31:09
yeah and and you know if you don't want them to forget five minutes after make
31:13
sure that you've given them that headline i'm going to do this.
31:16
That's it please don't bore us get to the course tell me what it is that you
31:20
can do to help me with one of my many known problems and i'm going to engage
31:24
with you absolutely absolutely oh gary what a wonderful,
31:29
wonderful time that has been with you i'm so grateful i really value the fact
31:33
that you've given up your time to come and talk to us this morning and share your insights
31:37
some great really great key takeaways there around that bit about discovery
31:41
before design work on the nhs agenda patient be patient centric think about
31:46
it from a patient perspective,
31:48
some fabulous insights and i'm really grateful to you mate thank you absolute
31:52
pleasure and uh well i'm interested in your book embedded i think that's going
31:57
to be a great thing when that comes out and i think when i saw you post on,
32:02
linkedin about that that's got to be on every bookshelf and every pharma company
32:08
rep you know representative whatever it's got to be yeah i think that's really keen i um.
32:14
I i mean i'm kind of well you've done it you've you're a published author so
32:18
yeah yeah you wonder will i sell one well i know my mum will buy one because
32:23
mom's always wondered what i do um and doesn't really understand it so i'm sure
32:27
my mother mom and dad will have a copy,
32:29
and then slowly but surely i've had lots of really great positive feedback people
32:34
saying where can i get it when can i get it i've even had people jokingly i
32:38
think saying to me can i get a signed copy.
32:40
I'm sure if people want that, we can absolutely sort it. We're a matter of weeks
32:47
away from publishing at the time of recording.
32:50
It's going to be great. Magic, mate. Thank you. And thank you again for taking
32:53
the time to come and talk to us this morning.
32:55
Absolute pleasure, Scott. Anytime. Cheers, Gary. Thanks again.