Latest / The Daily Writer / The Long-Term Journey of Building Your Writing Career | Ariel Curry & Liz Morrow

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The Long-Term Journey of Building Your Writing Career | Ariel Curry & Liz Morrow · The Daily Writer

0:08
SPEAKER_03: Hey friends, welcome back to the Profitable Writer Podcast.
0:11
SPEAKER_03: If you're new here, my name is Kent Sanders.
0:13
SPEAKER_03: I'm an author and ghostwriter, and this is the show that helps you grow your impact and income as a writer.
0:20
SPEAKER_03: Well, as you know, much of what we do as writers is focused on the here and now.
0:26
SPEAKER_03: We live with this every day, don't we?
0:27
SPEAKER_03: There's that blog post to write, there's that client chapter to get to, there are those emails to answer, that marketing plane to think about, and that cover design to approve.
0:36
SPEAKER_03: And those are all great things, to be sure, because they're part of our business.
0:39
SPEAKER_03: But in the process of doing the day-to-day work as a writer, it's really easy to lose sight of the forest because we're so focused on the trees.
0:47
SPEAKER_03: Well, on today's episode, I have the honor of sitting down on Zoom, of course, as most conversations today take place.
0:55
SPEAKER_03: I have the honor of sitting down with two good friends in the writing space, Ariel Curry and Liz Morrow, to reflect on the long-term journey of building our careers as authors.
1:06
SPEAKER_03: Let me tell you a bit about Ariel and Liz.
1:09
SPEAKER_03: Ariel Curry is a writer, editor, and book coach at Ariel Curry Editorial with over 10 years of experience in traditional publishing.
1:17
SPEAKER_03: She lives in Chattanooga, Tennessee with her husband, foster children, two rescue dogs, a kitten, and a beehive.
1:25
SPEAKER_03: You can connect with her at arielcurry.com.
1:29
SPEAKER_03: Liz Morrow is a traditionally published ghostwriter for entrepreneurs, thought leaders, and business experts.
1:35
SPEAKER_03: She specializes in personal and professional development and memoir.
1:39
SPEAKER_03: When she's not writing, you can find Liz listening to long form podcasts, rewatching The Office, and drinking margaritas with friends.
1:47
SPEAKER_03: She lives in Greenville, South Carolina with her husband, two children, and her golden doodle.
1:52
SPEAKER_03: You can connect with Liz and find out more about her at wellwrittenco.com.
1:58
SPEAKER_03: Now together, Ariel and Liz have teamed up to create the Hungry Authors brand, which includes an excellent podcast by the same name, as well as their upcoming book, Hungry Authors, the Indispensable Guide to Planning, Writing, and Publishing a Nonfiction Book.
2:15
SPEAKER_03: You can find out more by visiting HungryAuthors.com.
2:18
SPEAKER_03: And I also want to encourage you to do something a little bit different.
2:21
SPEAKER_03: I want to encourage you to pre-order the Hungry Authors book via the link that's in the show notes, which goes to bookshop.org.
2:28
SPEAKER_03: And by doing so, you'll help support independent bookstores.
2:32
SPEAKER_03: Nothing against Amazon.
2:33
SPEAKER_03: I order from Amazon several times a week, it seems like, especially with all the remodeling we're doing in our house.
2:39
SPEAKER_03: We've got stuff coming from Amazon constantly.
2:42
SPEAKER_03: I love Amazon, but there's also a lot of value in supporting independent bookstores.
2:46
SPEAKER_03: I believe those are really important.
2:48
SPEAKER_03: So go to bookshop.org and pre-order your copy of the Hungry Authors Book.
2:54
SPEAKER_03: There's a link again in the show notes.
2:57
SPEAKER_03: Now, in this conversation today, Ariel, Liz, and I wanted to explore the long-term journey of building an author career.
3:04
SPEAKER_03: And some of the topics that we talk about include what kinds of things each one of us is working on right now, our long-term career goals, how we got started as writers, some of our challenges right now, how we balance client work versus building our own author brands, and how to balance a writing career with parenthood, which is something all three of us uh have to wrestle with.
3:27
SPEAKER_03: Now, the interesting thing was that we actually used this episode on both of our podcasts.
3:32
SPEAKER_03: My episode, um actually I'm not sure when it comes out, um, but that'll be on the Hungry Authors podcast as well.
3:40
SPEAKER_03: So if you are a listener of Hungry Authors, you will hear this conversation there as well.
3:45
SPEAKER_03: And you know what?
3:46
SPEAKER_03: The wisdom that Ariel and Liz share is so good, and I enjoyed this conversation so much.
3:51
SPEAKER_03: I personally think it's worth a listen at least twice.
3:54
SPEAKER_03: So there you go.
3:55
SPEAKER_03: All right, without further ado, let's get right to the conversation with the amazing Ariel Curry and Liz Morrow.
4:03
SPEAKER_03: Liz and Ariel, it's so good to have you back here on the podcast.
4:07
SPEAKER_03: The last time you were on, it was called the Daily Writer Podcast.
4:09
SPEAKER_03: And because I apparently have a habit of switching my podcast branding every few years, uh, now it's the Profitable Rider Podcast.
4:17
SPEAKER_03: So whatever I'm doing on mine, I'm always thrilled to have both of you on the show.
4:20
SPEAKER_03: You kind of class up the joint uh a bit, which I appreciate.
4:24
SPEAKER_03: So welcome.
4:26
SPEAKER_03: Glad to have you guys.
4:27
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: We're super excited to be back.
4:32
SPEAKER_03: So what we're talking about today is a little bit more of a broad topic, which I guess I would frame this as the author's or their writer's career.
4:43
SPEAKER_03: And a lot of times on the show, and you know, when you listen to other writing shows, they're talking about very specific things like client work or uh book marketing or outlining your book or very strategic or granular kinds of topics.
4:56
SPEAKER_03: And today I want to do the exact opposite.
4:58
SPEAKER_03: And I'd love for us just to have a conversation about what do our careers look like?
5:03
SPEAKER_03: How did we get started?
5:04
SPEAKER_03: What are some of the challenges that we've had?
5:06
SPEAKER_03: What do we want long term for our writing careers?
5:09
SPEAKER_03: These are the kinds of things that I wish I would have been able to ask, or I wish that I would have thought to ask somebody when I first got started in all this journey a number of years ago.
5:18
SPEAKER_03: So because you both are why is it accomplished?
5:21
SPEAKER_03: I'm I'm always uh curious and interested to learn from you both.
5:25
SPEAKER_03: And I'll give my responses to to some of these questions as well.
5:28
SPEAKER_03: So if that sounds like a good direction, um, I guess we'll get rolling.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: So let's do it.
5:34
SPEAKER_03: All right.
5:35
SPEAKER_03: Um, let's start off though with Hungry Authors.
5:38
SPEAKER_03: This is a community slash brand slash all the cool things that you guys have um have joined together to offer to the world.
5:48
SPEAKER_03: And it's really, really something cool.
5:50
SPEAKER_03: So if you could both tell us why you decided to come together to create Hungry Authors, what it is, how it benefits people, and uh and all those things.
5:58
SPEAKER_03: Maybe that would be a good place to start.
6:01
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
6:02
SPEAKER_02: Well, um a few years ago, I keep losing track of like when it was.
6:08
SPEAKER_02: I mean, over two years ago now.
6:10
unknown: Yeah.
6:11
SPEAKER_02: Right?
6:11
SPEAKER_03: You know, I'm not the only one who does it.
6:12
SPEAKER_03: Okay, I feel better.
6:13
SPEAKER_02: Right.
6:14
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
6:16
SPEAKER_02: Um, Ariel and I were both leaving our traditional-ish jobs or you know, our nine to fives where we work for somebody else.
6:27
SPEAKER_02: Um and so we both went freelance around the same time.
6:31
SPEAKER_02: We can talk more about that in a little bit if you want.
6:34
SPEAKER_02: Um, but basically, we got connected because of that.
6:37
SPEAKER_02: We were new to the freelance world.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: We were both kind of lonely navigating it, wondering, how do you get clients?
6:44
SPEAKER_02: How do you have work buddies if you don't work with anybody anymore?
6:48
SPEAKER_02: And just all the things that come with freelancing.
6:52
SPEAKER_02: You know, we both sort of felt like we didn't really know what we were doing.
6:55
SPEAKER_02: And so we started a um mastermind together that has included a couple other amazing women, and that's been great.
7:03
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then somewhere along the way, during Voxer messages and mastermind meetings, we realized that we both were interested.
7:13
SPEAKER_02: Actually, I feel like we have to give you credit because you were one of the maybe the first person who said, like, I mentioned something about writing a book for nonfiction writers about how to write a nonfiction book, and you're like, hey, you should talk to Ariel.
7:28
SPEAKER_02: She's like said the same thing.
7:29
SPEAKER_02: You guys are basically trying to work on the same book, and we were already good buds, and we hadn't even talked to each other about that yet.
7:36
SPEAKER_02: And so, um, yeah, we started talking about what it would look like to write a book.
7:42
SPEAKER_02: The whole Hungry Authors brand, community, company all started with the book idea.
7:48
SPEAKER_02: Um so we wanted to write a book for first-time nonfiction writers um about how to how to write your book.
7:56
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, since we we spend um a lot of time helping clients one-on-one do this, but a lot of people can't afford our one-on-one services, and we still wanted to help people, and we felt like we'd had this really cool process that worked for everybody.
8:11
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, so we did the whole book thing, wrote the proposal, and then it just evolved into um masterclasses and the podcast, which of course was also your idea, and um yeah, I remember that you told uh us early on, you're like, you should do a podcast, and we're both like, no, that's never happening.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: And here we are.
8:32
SPEAKER_02: Yep, yeah, and so that's basically how it how it got started.
8:36
SPEAKER_02: And then now we have a book coming out in August, and the podcast is in its third season, and you know, that's how it worked.
8:44
SPEAKER_03: And you also have a really great Instagram.
8:48
SPEAKER_03: I almost said Instagram channel.
8:51
SPEAKER_03: That makes me sound like I'm 107 years old.
8:53
SPEAKER_03: If I say channel, it's not a channel.
8:54
SPEAKER_03: I know that.
8:55
SPEAKER_03: Uh what is the right term?
8:56
SPEAKER_03: Instagram account feed.
8:58
SPEAKER_03: I think what's the hip term all the kids are using these days?
9:01
SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know that, but I would use account, I guess.
9:05
SPEAKER_03: Okay, okay.
9:06
SPEAKER_03: I'll use account that I think that sounds that sounds good.
9:08
SPEAKER_03: But no, you guys do a great job on Instagram.
9:11
SPEAKER_03: Um, I know that you're other places too with hungry authors, but I'm on Instagram the most, and it's just cool.
9:16
SPEAKER_03: I love the stuff that you guys are putting out.
9:18
SPEAKER_03: It's really good.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
9:21
SPEAKER_03: Um, Erin, anything that you want to add to that?
9:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, the only thing I I would say too is we are now doing cohort courses, um, which is kind of fun.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: And we have got kind of a community uh aspect to hungry authors, which is also really cool to see people um, you know, engaging with especially the book mapping process that we teach and experimenting with it and really developing their own books.
9:46
SPEAKER_00: And the feedback that we've gotten through those experiences has been incredible.
9:51
SPEAKER_00: It's always really fun for us to see pictures of people's book maps and and to hear from them, you know, however many months down the road saying, I finished my book or I've got a book deal.
10:01
SPEAKER_00: That's been a lot of fun for us.
10:04
SPEAKER_03: Now I do know that you both decided to, because a lot of people ask me about traditional publishing versus self-publishing versus hybrid, yada yada.
10:12
SPEAKER_03: It's like the ongoing conversation in the writing world.
10:14
SPEAKER_03: Um, and a lot of people talk to both of you about it, I'm sure.
10:19
SPEAKER_03: Um, I know that you both decided to go with excuse me, that you both decided to go with a publisher or your hungry author's book.
10:25
SPEAKER_03: I'm curious if you can if you can share why you decided to go that direction instead of self-publishing.
10:32
SPEAKER_00: Well, we had originally thought we would be self-publishing, a lot of a lot of editors and writers kind of in this space when they when they write their how to write a book book, which seems to be kind of a rite of passage for a lot of people in this industry, um, a lot of them self-publish.
10:50
SPEAKER_00: And it I think that's just because there's so much competition and it's, you know, we kind of know what the process looks like.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of us, I think, don't feel like you have to have a traditionally published book in order for it to sell well and you know, all of that.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, so we originally thought we would do the same thing and self-publish our book or or hybrid publish.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: And as we were working on mapping it out ourselves, um, I was like, you know, we we write book proposals for a living.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: Why not just like try just for fun?
11:25
SPEAKER_00: And if it doesn't work out, we haven't lost anything.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: But you know what?
11:29
SPEAKER_00: Let's just shoot our shot and see what happens and write a book proposal.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: So we did, and we got an agent, Don Pape, who's been amazing to work with, and he pitched our book about this time last year, and then we were very honored to have Roman and Littlefield say they were interested in publishing it.
11:50
SPEAKER_00: So it just kind of worked out.
11:52
SPEAKER_00: And I will say I'm grateful for the traditional publishing process in a lot of ways.
11:57
SPEAKER_00: I think there's, you know, pros and cons.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: That's a whole other conversation we could have.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: But um, I am grateful just to have gone through the experience myself.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you know, I used to work in traditional publishing, so I I had a lot of knowledge about how it would go from that perspective.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: But walking through the steps as an author myself now, it's just been really interesting to be in, you know, kind of on the other side of the table and see how it works and and uh test my own assumptions and expectations.
12:27
SPEAKER_03: I think that was a really smart decision, actually, because I think there's a lot of value because when you're working with clients, whether you're doing ghostwriting or you're doing book proposals or coaching or however we're we're helping people who want to write their books, I think if if you could bring a wide variety of experience to that conversation, that's really helpful to them.
12:47
SPEAKER_03: Because you can say, well, I traditionally published, I worked with a hybrid publisher, I self-published.
12:52
SPEAKER_03: The more experiences that we all have, I think the more valuable that makes us to others because we're speaking from a place of experience and not just from kind of what we read, you know, in somebody's newsletter or in some other book or something.
13:05
SPEAKER_03: So that I knew that you guys were going that direction, and I was like, that's a really smart strategic move.
13:10
SPEAKER_03: Because then I'm sure you'll you'll both do self-publishing as well, in addition, maybe work with a hybrid or who knows.
13:16
SPEAKER_03: So I thought that was really cool.
13:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you.
13:20
SPEAKER_03: Let's talk for a second about the the different things that you both are doing now.
13:25
SPEAKER_03: So obviously you're both involved in Hungry Authors, which is a book, community podcast, and that's like a whole thing in itself, you know.
13:32
SPEAKER_03: For and for anybody listening who has run their own podcast currently or in the past, or you've written a book, like those things in themselves are like a a really solid part-time job, just each of those elements on their own.
13:46
SPEAKER_03: Uh, but that's only part of what both of you do.
13:49
SPEAKER_03: So um, Ariela, let's maybe start with you.
13:52
SPEAKER_03: What are the things that you are currently doing right now in your writing career, in addition to hungry authors?
13:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I am ghostwriting currently two books.
14:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, I also have usually, you know, a couple smaller projects going on at the same time as my ghostwriting.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: So I'll take on like a proposal edit or a developmental edit or something, which um I have found I need to take on at the same time, even as a ghostwriting project, just so that I have money coming in sooner.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: Because usually for ghostwriting, um and we could talk more about this, usually the benchmarks and milestones when you get paid are so spread apart, even if it's a lot of money, exactly.
14:36
SPEAKER_00: They are so spread apart.
14:38
SPEAKER_00: And um, right now, you know, my my income is the only income in our family.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: And so I just need money a little sooner than that, usually.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: So I I take on, you know, smaller projects along the way, some coaching clients too, um, just to keep, you know, keep things kind of coming in cash flow-wise.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: And then besides that, I also have my own newsletter.
15:04
SPEAKER_00: So I'm pretty rigorous with my newsletter.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: I spend a lot of time on it each week.
15:09
SPEAKER_00: I send it out at least once a week, usually on Fridays.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: And um, that is a a big chunk of my time each week as well.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: And that's something I do that um, well, it wasn't paid.
15:21
SPEAKER_00: However, since I switched to Substack, some people have become paid subscribers, which has kind of blown my mind because I didn't really like start that with the intent of getting paid for it.
15:32
SPEAKER_00: But I will say, now that I have some people paying me to write my Substack newsletter, I feel a lot more motivated to do it and to do it even better than I have been doing it.
15:43
SPEAKER_03: Well, your newsletter is really, really good.
15:45
SPEAKER_03: And I I feel like it is gosh, this sounds a little dramatic now that I'm gonna say this out loud, but I feel like it's destined to that really does sound overly dramatic.
15:57
SPEAKER_03: I watch too many movies, apparently.
15:59
SPEAKER_03: Um, but I do feel like it's kind of destined to become um something that is a real cornerstone for those of us who are doing this for a living, because I I I sort of feel less pressure to keep up and things because I'm like, well, whatever things are happening sort of around this industry, Ariel probably knows about it before I do, and it's gonna be in her newsletter and she's gonna have some thoughts about it.
16:21
SPEAKER_03: So I have kind of come to rely on it a little bit as a news source, like legit.
16:27
SPEAKER_03: So, but it's obvious you put a lot of time and and thought into it, and it's really, really good.
16:31
SPEAKER_03: And obviously we'll link to that in the show notes.
16:33
SPEAKER_03: But but thank you for taking the time and effort to put together a really cool resource.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: Well, that is a huge compliment.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: I am I'm honored.
16:42
SPEAKER_03: Uh now, Liz, how about you?
16:43
SPEAKER_03: What kinds of other things are involved in your constellation of your writing career right now?
16:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I pretty much only do two things, and that is ghostwrite full manuscripts and book proposals.
16:58
SPEAKER_02: Um, I have done a little bit of everything since I started freelancing coaching, you know, random editing things, just trying to get a feel for what I like to do and am good at.
17:12
SPEAKER_02: And now I only say yes to book proposals and ghostwriting books.
17:17
SPEAKER_02: Now I will say the ghostwriting books bucket does sometimes come in um varieties of conditions of the book.
17:28
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes, you know, I do um I work a lot with agencies.
17:34
SPEAKER_02: I really like working with agencies.
17:36
SPEAKER_02: So I'm a part of a number of um ghostwriting agencies who feed me a lot of clients, and most of the time those clients are square one, they've got an idea, maybe even a baby idea.
17:49
SPEAKER_02: And we're starting with either, you know, starting with writing the manuscript if they just want to dive into it, or like book proposal to manuscript.
17:57
SPEAKER_02: So I do start at the beginning, no words on the page a lot.
18:00
SPEAKER_02: But I also have, I don't know, maybe like 25% of those ghostwriting clients.
18:05
SPEAKER_02: There is um a manuscript that, and and often these kinds of people either come to me themselves or they come to me through their agent or their publishing house, and they've turned in a manuscript and it's not where they want it to be, um, or they've got half of a manuscript and they're having trouble finishing it.
18:25
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I also work with those clients too, where it's we're not starting from square one, but I still come in as um, you know, a highly involved collaborator and or just full ghostwriter to take over the thing and um either finish it or seriously rework it.
18:43
SPEAKER_02: And but that all kind of fits into the like writing the manuscript bucket.
18:49
SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, and those are pretty much um that's pretty much it.
18:54
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if Ariel or if your um if Ariel said this or if your audience knows, but we exclusively do nonfiction, and my specialty is um prescriptive nonfiction for thought leaders, entrepreneurs, and industry experts.
19:12
SPEAKER_02: And I have done a couple of memoirs, although even my memoirs tend to fall into the entrepreneurial kind of uh people.
19:20
SPEAKER_02: And so that's primarily who I work with, and I write their book proposals in their books, and these days that's that's all I do.
19:28
SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
19:29
SPEAKER_03: And let me ask you, let me take a little 60-second little side jaunt.
19:33
SPEAKER_03: Um and this is this is the part of the podcast where I'm actually asking both of you for your advice about something.
19:39
SPEAKER_03: So I have actually this might surprise some people because I've been doing ghostwriting while I've actually never been hired to write a full book proposal, just a proposal for a traditional publisher or for an agent.
19:52
SPEAKER_03: Um most of the stuff that I has have done has either been for self-published clients, uh in which case you don't you don't really write a full proposal like you would for an agent because they're not shopping around.
20:04
SPEAKER_03: But I always include those elements in a in a book pitch or something kind of like it.
20:08
SPEAKER_03: Um in the cases where I've worked with traditional publishers for different for a variety of different reasons, I've they've never asked me to produce like a full book pitch or book proposal document.
20:19
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes because the the agent has already kind of prepared something and already sold the book or whatever.
20:24
SPEAKER_03: So anyway, how how do you guys think about when you are hired to write a proposal for something and then when they also want you to do the book, how do you think about pricing for that?
20:36
SPEAKER_03: Because when you're putting together a really good proposal, by definition, you're already doing a chunk of the work of writing the book.
20:44
SPEAKER_03: So how do you both think about that?
20:46
SPEAKER_03: Do you kind of look at it as well, if you do the proposal and then the book, you take a certain amount off of your typical ghostwriting fee for that project?
20:54
SPEAKER_03: Or I'm just curious how you both think about that, or if you've encountered that situation where you've had to think about the pricing for a proposal plus book versus just a book or just a proposal.
21:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, that's a great question.
21:11
SPEAKER_02: Um and of course, like there's no right answer.
21:16
SPEAKER_02: Um I look at book proposals as a trial run.
21:24
SPEAKER_02: Um I love it when I get a client who comes to me.
21:29
SPEAKER_02: We seem to have the chemistry that could result in a great long-term partnership that could go from proposal all the way through the book.
21:40
SPEAKER_02: Like that's my ideal client.
21:42
SPEAKER_02: I like the long term projects.
21:45
SPEAKER_02: But you don't really know that.
21:47
SPEAKER_02: And so um I occasionally through agencies, I will say most or maybe my only actually um contract that includes everything.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: Like proposal and book all in one has been through agencies.
22:04
SPEAKER_02: And that's just like whatever your um proposal price is.
22:11
SPEAKER_03: It's more of a set thing when you go through an agency.
22:13
SPEAKER_03: It's just like enterprise for proposal versus book or whatever.
22:17
SPEAKER_02: Right.
22:17
SPEAKER_02: And I still have a lot of say over how much I charge.
22:20
SPEAKER_02: And like if someone wants to enter into that big of a contract, I probably would, you know, like if I normally charge$10,000 for a book proposal and my ghosting prices start at$40,000 and I was gonna, and someone wants me to do them both, maybe I would do both for$45,000 and like give them a little bit of a discount for that one huge contract instead of that's kind of what I was thinking too.
22:44
SPEAKER_02: Right.
22:44
SPEAKER_02: But I actually, given my choice, if someone came to me and I was drawing up the contract outside of you know an agency or any anyone else representing either of us, I actually prefer to do them separate because um, number one, you do not know that they are going to get a book deal.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: And so you don't know that that's gonna work out.
23:11
SPEAKER_02: And also you don't know that you're gonna want to write the book.
23:14
SPEAKER_02: Even like, you know, book proposal process is a great trial run.
23:18
SPEAKER_02: Um, it gives you a good feel for who that person is, how much they have to say, how you work together.
23:25
SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, there's been a number of times where I actually really ended up loving that client, but after writing their proposal, I did not particularly want to write the book because I, you know, just it just wasn't, you know, gonna work for me, or the proposal writing process, it's also quite long.
23:40
SPEAKER_02: And so maybe in a couple months your circumstances have changed and you don't want to anyway.
23:45
SPEAKER_02: So I sort of look at the proposal process and then the selling of the thing by the agent as like um a trial run or or you know, an out if either of us wants it, and then sign a different contract for the book that I would probably still give them a little bit of a discount since they already paid so much and a lot of that ideation and planning and is kind of all done, you know.
24:08
SPEAKER_02: Um, which is why I like like those kinds of clients a lot, because writing the book is is super well, not super easy.
24:14
SPEAKER_02: It's never super easy to write a book, but it's much easier if you've already done the proposal and you know just about everything that that there is to know.
24:21
SPEAKER_02: But I mean, that's that's how I do it.
24:24
SPEAKER_02: What about you, Ariel?
24:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, that's exactly how I've done it.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: So I can think of two projects that have been like that for me that have been outside of agencies that like I've contracted on my own that wasn't through an agency, where I wrote the proposal and it was exactly like you said.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: We wrote the proposal together as kind of a we're gonna commit to this.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: And I did charge my full price for the proposal.
24:50
SPEAKER_00: And then for the rest of the manuscript, it was okay.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: You know, here's here's what I would charge for the kind of the rest of the manuscript, excluding the sample materials which were already written as part of the proposal, and then a little bit of a discount on top of that.
25:07
SPEAKER_03: That totally makes sense.
25:08
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
25:08
SPEAKER_03: So it sounds like that I'm approaching it pretty much the right way.
25:11
SPEAKER_03: So okay, I like that.
25:12
SPEAKER_03: I appreciate the advice.
25:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:15
SPEAKER_03: Really all that this podcast is is me just having smart people on the show, and I just I just get free coaching, basically.
25:21
SPEAKER_03: That's what it is.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: Our podcast is like that too.
25:24
SPEAKER_03: Not really, but there is an element of that where it's like, you know, if you just kind of want to call somebody on the phone and have a conversation, that's one thing.
25:31
SPEAKER_03: But then if you invite somebody onto your show and then you let other people listen to it, it's kind of a it's an easy way to get to talk to really cool people, which is the whole one of the big reasons why I've always done podcasting.
25:41
SPEAKER_03: So um maybe I'll throw I'll throw my two cents in here because um we're gonna actually share this episode on my podcast as well as the Hungry Authors Podcast.
25:52
SPEAKER_03: So, with the question of what kinds of things are you doing right now, um, I'll throw my hat into the ring here.
25:58
SPEAKER_03: So my main thing is ghostwriting.
26:01
SPEAKER_03: Uh last year I actually got into a little bit of uh I would call it project management for children's books, which was a really surprising thing that I did not anticipate.
26:12
SPEAKER_03: Probably I will not offer the service again.
26:15
SPEAKER_03: Um, it's not even something that I really offered, but just through a series of kind of unique circumstances, three people from three different parts of my world came to me asking if I could help them with kids' books.
26:27
SPEAKER_03: And I had never done that before, and I want to write kids' books at some point as part of just my author career.
26:33
SPEAKER_03: And so I said yes.
26:34
SPEAKER_03: What I found out to be was actually pretty complicated because you're dealing with the illustrators, the authors, um, that if you have books that are like different sizes, and then you have Ingram and KDP and Draft Digital, they all have different requirements for things.
26:48
SPEAKER_03: It's actually turned out to be fairly complicated to do that, but I really enjoyed the process.
26:53
SPEAKER_03: So I think, like both of you, sometimes um, sometimes I just take on things that are sound interesting and that I want to learn how to do, and you can do them for a client.
27:02
SPEAKER_03: So, in addition to full ghostwriting books uh and doing some little side gigs like that, then of course I also run this podcast and I run my profitable binder membership community, which is kind of the other main thing that I do.
27:14
SPEAKER_03: So I like doing a range of things like both of you.
27:17
SPEAKER_03: Um I do want to throw the question out there.
27:20
SPEAKER_03: So there have been times over the last, let's say, 10 years, once I kind of got the bug to want to start my own business, I still taught at the college where I worked.
27:30
SPEAKER_03: I still taught for a number of years after that, but I had thought at different times about instead of just doing my own business, about working for somebody else, whether like some kind of full-time educational position or writing position or editing or whatever else.
27:44
SPEAKER_03: Um, how did both of you think about that?
27:47
SPEAKER_03: Like we hear a lot of of pluses about kind of the freelance life or the self-employed life or the entrepreneur life.
27:55
SPEAKER_03: And yeah, there are definitely some pluses to that, but sometimes there are opportunities where they come along and you think, well, maybe instead of just kind of doing stuff on my own, I could work for somebody else full-time.
28:06
SPEAKER_03: I've got a number of friends who do those exact kinds of things.
28:10
SPEAKER_03: Um, how do both of you think about that?
28:11
SPEAKER_03: And maybe when should people consider taking a full-time position that's in their wheelhouse versus just freelancing or being self-employed?
28:22
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll share for myself.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: I mean, like you said, freelancing has a ton of benefits to it.
28:29
SPEAKER_00: I think one of the things I love most is the flexible schedule.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: That is by far for me, you know, especially now that we have foster kids in the house.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: It is just super convenient that if I need to, you know, leave in the middle of the day for taking one to a doctor's appointment or whatever, you know, I could just do that and I don't have to check with anyone and I can I could just go.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: Um I think the the downside, at least for me, is again, you know, kind of the the unpredictability of your income.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: That's a big one, especially if, you know, there is there you especially if you've got people relying on you.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, that's definitely part of it.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: Um you know, the unpredictability of your income and also just the the fact that you don't have any clear boundaries around your work, right?
29:18
SPEAKER_00: Like having a full-time job provides some really nice clear lines about this is what you're responsible for, and everything else is stuff you are not responsible for.
29:30
SPEAKER_00: And when you are freelancing, you know, I get pitched all the time things like, well, this is a little bit different from what you normally do, but would you consider doing X?
29:39
SPEAKER_00: Or like I just had someone reach out to me on LinkedIn and be like, would you consider writing or you know, editing a screenplay?
29:46
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I have no idea.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: That's not, you know, and I I'm probably gonna say no to that for a number of reasons.
29:55
SPEAKER_00: But like those are the kinds of things that come up when you're freelancing that like you have to constantly not just be thinking about, you know, what is the work that I want to be doing, but what else might I be willing to do?
30:06
SPEAKER_00: Like there's all of this possibility that is exciting sometimes, but also means that it can be really easy for your vision for your business to get blurry and you're, you know, then there's just the practicality of like, well, I I just need to have, I need to have income.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: So maybe if I'm not getting, you know, if I'm not getting the work I really, really want right now, maybe I would say yes to some things that I don't really want.
30:34
SPEAKER_00: And that doesn't always feel good.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's the place that freelancers can often find themselves in is, you know, compromising their vision for what they really, really want just because of the practicalities of life.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, if you find that happening, or if you find yourself, you know, kind of craving the like really clear boundaries of like you need to worry about whatever's in this box.
31:01
SPEAKER_00: And everything outside of that box are things you no longer have to worry about.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: That can be really appealing.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: And for myself, you know, I came from, you know, I worked at a traditional publisher for almost a decade, um, over a decade, if you include my internships and stuff before that.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: And that, you know, that was really nice in some ways.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: I had a team.
31:24
SPEAKER_00: I was told what to do sometimes, which wasn't always great, but also provided me a lot of clarity.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: I could turn off my computer at the end of the night and be like, I'm done now.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: I've done what I needed to do today, and I'm still gonna get a paycheck in two weeks.
31:39
SPEAKER_00: And that's all I'm responsible for.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: And I could just kind of turn off my brain to that when that day was over.
31:47
SPEAKER_00: With freelancing, there's just all of, you know, especially running your own business.
31:52
SPEAKER_00: You have to be responsible for everything.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm, you know, it's it's tax season now.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: So I'm dealing with my bookkeeper and my accountant, and they're asking me for forms that I'm like, I don't even know what that is.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: And there's we have to file a report.
32:06
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I don't know what how to fill out this report.
32:09
SPEAKER_00: And there's just those kinds of things that you don't have to worry about when you are a W-2 employee.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: So there's definitely pros and cons.
32:18
SPEAKER_03: We'll get back to the conversation in just a moment, but first I want to take a second to give a big thanks to today's sponsor, The Word Wizard.
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33:12
SPEAKER_03: Now back to the conversation.
33:15
SPEAKER_03: That's a really hard thing that I think a lot of people don't talk about.
33:19
SPEAKER_03: I certainly wasn't aware of the challenge of that when I went full time in my own business.
33:24
SPEAKER_03: I mean, I knew I was going to be my own boss, obviously, but I wasn't prepared for kind of the the reality that there's no clear answers to anything.
33:35
SPEAKER_03: Because you when you're your own boss, you know, if something isn't the way that you want it or the way that you would like it, you only have one person to blame, really.
33:42
SPEAKER_03: And you can have coaches, you can have mentors, you can listen to podcasts and read books, but there's really no definitive person that can give you a hundred percent clear answer about anything, especially about what kinds of work you should do or not do.
33:54
SPEAKER_03: Should you go on this trip, should you go to this conference, should you take on this client?
33:58
SPEAKER_03: Everything is kind of an educated guess.
34:00
SPEAKER_03: I think the longer that we do this, hopefully the more educated those guesses are.
34:04
SPEAKER_03: But that is the nice thing about working for somebody else, is you have definitive clear answers about things.
34:10
SPEAKER_03: So, and that that's an element that I do miss, I'll be honest.
34:13
SPEAKER_03: Um, my life as a college professor was pretty regimented.
34:17
SPEAKER_03: It was very clear, it was very laid out.
34:19
SPEAKER_03: I I never had to guess where I needed to be and what I needed to do.
34:23
SPEAKER_03: It was really, really clear.
34:25
SPEAKER_03: Um, and that's that at times it's been a struggle shifting into a self-employed life.
34:29
SPEAKER_03: So Liz, I'm curious your perspective on all this.
34:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, I agree with everything Ariel said, and that by far the best um or the um the the biggest benefit for me is is the flexibility.
34:47
SPEAKER_02: That part has been great.
34:50
SPEAKER_02: Um feeling like, yeah, I can take a day off if I'm sick or I need or my kids are sick, or you know, I just kind of want to.
35:00
SPEAKER_02: Um and um yeah, like to some degree, quote, being your own boss, although people I don't know, I think people oversell that part of freelancing.
35:13
SPEAKER_02: It's like, well, you're still accountable to a lot of people.
35:16
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, you just have a lot more bosses, right?
35:20
SPEAKER_02: It's like no one's telling you you have to be somewhere at nine o'clock, but there are still deadlines and all kinds of other things people you're accountable to.
35:30
SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, yeah, I think when I went freelance a couple years ago, um I did not come from um a uh publishing house or anything.
35:44
SPEAKER_02: I worked um for a um traditionally published author who I um was an assistant to at the beginning and helped him build his um writing agency and then managed it.
35:59
SPEAKER_02: And um that was an amazing experience.
36:02
SPEAKER_02: And I got a lot of um just yeah, I learned so much there.
36:05
SPEAKER_02: And actually, that's one of the people like because ghostwriting or having a writing career doesn't have a nice um clear path the way that maybe going to medical school is like one of the ways I tell people is it's so possible.
36:20
SPEAKER_02: Like one of the best things you can do is just go work for a writer in any capacity, be their personal assistant, make their appointments.
36:27
SPEAKER_02: Like, that's I literally started as his personal assistant, making appointments, scheduling doctors' appointments, scheduling grocery deliveries, things like that.
36:36
SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, that just whatever.
36:38
SPEAKER_02: It's like Neil Gaiman has some amazing TED talk about, or maybe it was a commencement speech.
36:43
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, rather, it's just like try and take tiny steps closer to where you want to be.
36:47
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't even have to be like doing the thing you want.
36:49
SPEAKER_02: Just like anyway, that was my in was getting becoming close to this writer.
36:53
SPEAKER_02: And Ryan Holiday did something serious or similar with um Robert Green.
36:57
SPEAKER_02: You know, he was just his research assistant from the beginning.
37:00
SPEAKER_02: So anyway, just go find a writer to work for and then you'll get some experience.
37:04
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, all that um back to your question.
37:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, I think I romanticized what it would be like to um to be freelance, you know, like I'm I'm whatever, building my reputation.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: I have um I can take on as many projects as I want, I can make so much more money, no cap to my income, you know, freedom, da-da-da.
37:24
SPEAKER_02: And all of that is to some degree true.
37:26
SPEAKER_02: But like Earl said, it's it's unpredictable.
37:29
SPEAKER_02: You take, you sign a really big contract and it's exciting, and then the client drags their feet, and that milestone that you thought was gonna be every three months is now every six months, and you have to supplement that income somehow.
37:41
SPEAKER_02: So you have to go find something else.
37:42
SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, somebody turns around edits like they drag their feet for six months, but they turn them around, and now they've only given you one week to turn them back around because there's a deadline.
37:52
SPEAKER_02: And do you push back on that or do you just spend all the night doing it?
37:57
SPEAKER_03: You know, it's just it is the realities of what it is, yeah.
38:01
SPEAKER_02: And it just requires I don't know, a whole new set of skills, both time management and stress regulation and boundary setting that you have to navigate.
38:17
SPEAKER_02: Um, then there's of course the whole lack of community and team part that like you it's just been so important to me to find people to support me and talk to about this kind of stuff.
38:29
SPEAKER_02: And like, you know, I and I know Errol is too, like, I am totally open to going back to full-time work at some point.
38:37
SPEAKER_02: And actually, I think freelancing and the experience that you gain feeds could feed really nicely into a full-time position somewhere else, and then um, you know, careers are are long and there's no like straight path there.
38:54
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think um yeah, there's pros and cons, and you just have to decide like what problems you want to have at the time.
39:06
SPEAKER_02: And um freelancing is is is great, but I do think, especially in the copy that people write when they're trying to kind of sell you on something, it's it's romanticized and it's not um, you know, it's it's not always the freedom and unlimited income that it can kind of be pitched as.
39:27
SPEAKER_02: It's or it or it takes some really hard personal work to get to a point where you can can deal with it because the in unpredictability is is nerve-wracking, and sometimes a full-time job sounds really nice.
39:40
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, again, like Ariel, I'm not opposed to that.
39:42
SPEAKER_02: I think um I think that would be be cool.
39:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
39:46
SPEAKER_03: I think that's really wise what you said.
39:48
SPEAKER_03: Thank you both for your perspective on that.
39:50
SPEAKER_03: That's really, really helpful.
39:51
SPEAKER_03: And I think that's gonna be really helpful for our listeners as well, and your listeners, because this is gonna be on your show.
39:56
SPEAKER_03: You said something really, really interesting, Liz.
39:59
SPEAKER_03: That basically you're choosing your problems.
40:02
SPEAKER_03: And that to me is a really important question is what problems are you willing to put up with?
40:07
SPEAKER_03: When you're an employee, the the problems are you have a cap on your income, somebody else is determining what you work on and what you don't work on.
40:17
SPEAKER_03: They can fire you at any time.
40:19
SPEAKER_03: So, you know, those are generally the problems that any employee anywhere has to deal with when your income is reliant on one single employer.
40:28
SPEAKER_03: As a self-employed person or as a freelancer, your problems are, well, you know, especially Ariel, you mentioned you're responsible for everything.
40:36
SPEAKER_03: You're the marketing person, you're the PR person, you're the accounting person, you're sending the invoices, you're following up with people, you're doing all the work, unless you hire some of those elements out.
40:46
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, that there are there are pros and cons to it.
40:49
SPEAKER_03: And for me, I I ultimately decided that partly because of the stage of my life, because I have I have one kid, he's 19.
40:58
SPEAKER_03: Um you know, my work life looks different than it did 10 years ago when he was, you know, in middle school, and where I felt like he required more of my attention.
41:08
SPEAKER_03: Um for my life now, the the problems I'm willing to put up with more are uh how do I deal with the loneliness of being an entrepreneur and of being a solo business owner?
41:22
SPEAKER_03: Um, can I learn to love the marketing aspect and the client acquisition part better?
41:27
SPEAKER_03: Can I grow in my skills where I don't lack?
41:29
SPEAKER_03: And can I can I go out on the limb and hire the accountant?
41:33
SPEAKER_03: And I hired an account a couple years ago, which was one of the best things I ever did, honestly.
41:38
SPEAKER_03: And I've grown a lot from those things, but but it's so true, you're you're swapping one set of problems for another set of problems.
41:44
SPEAKER_03: So everybody kind of has to figure out what that is for their particular part of their journey.
41:49
SPEAKER_03: So uh I'm curious if you both can talk about and you've both of you have hinted at this, um, but I want to ask the question more explicitly.
41:57
SPEAKER_03: When you look down the road at let's say 10 years, five five or ten years down the road, which is not as l as far off as maybe it seems to be.
42:07
SPEAKER_03: Um, what are your goals and what kinds of things do you want to ultimately be part of your writing business?
42:15
SPEAKER_03: Here's what I mean by that, really.
42:17
SPEAKER_03: Um, all of us has the have the opportunity to have a different constellation of things in our business and where our income comes from, whether it's passive income streams, recurring income streams like memberships, or doing direct client work or uh book sales and royalties or other kinds, you know, speaking, there's a million courses, there's a million things to do.
42:39
SPEAKER_03: Um what do each of you want for your long-term writing career?
42:44
SPEAKER_03: And as you look at it now from your perspective right now in your life, uh, what do you envision those pieces might be maybe five or eight or ten years down the road?
42:54
SPEAKER_03: And uh, Errol, maybe let's start with you.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
43:02
SPEAKER_00: In my ideal world.
43:04
SPEAKER_03: In your ideal world, perfect world.
43:06
SPEAKER_00: I think in ten years I am mostly working on my own writing.
43:12
SPEAKER_00: I am writing a book, one book at one time.
43:19
SPEAKER_00: And I'm writing my newsletter, and ideally that newsletter has grown, and now I'm you know, maybe I'm reaching 10,000 people every week.
43:29
SPEAKER_00: That's not even that many, but that would be incredible.
43:32
SPEAKER_00: Um and yeah, and that's pretty much it.
43:38
SPEAKER_00: Like that would that would be my ideal is if I could spend most of my time reading amazing things and putting my thoughts together about the writing life for other people to learn from, that would be, I think, fantastic.
43:53
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, continuing to do some teaching or some speaking at conferences a little bit here and there, but especially.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: As a parent now, I really want to be more present at home.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: That's my ultimate goal.
44:09
SPEAKER_00: I don't know that that will happen.
44:10
SPEAKER_00: In fact, I think that probably won't happen exactly like that.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: If it does, amazing.
44:16
SPEAKER_00: But I don't think it will exactly like that.
44:19
SPEAKER_00: And then I think, you know, well, I love doing what I do now too.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: I love helping people.
44:26
SPEAKER_00: And I know that I will always be helping writers in some capacity.
44:31
SPEAKER_00: Again, in my ideal world, I think that's very limited, but it will always be there.
44:36
SPEAKER_00: So in my less ideal version of reality, then you know, continuing to do developmental edits and coaching or however that looks, I I'm also very happy with that version of life too.
44:51
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if that helps.
44:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and ultimately, I mean, isn't this really what it's all about?
44:57
SPEAKER_03: Ultimately, is you want to just be doing the things that give you joy.
45:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
45:01
SPEAKER_03: Whatever those things consist of.
45:03
SPEAKER_03: And nobody else can really determine that for us.
45:06
SPEAKER_03: I think it is difficult sometimes because all of us know a lot of the same people, and we know a lot of people in this, even though it is kind of a small, it's a small world that seems big to us.
45:16
SPEAKER_03: But you know, sometimes when I when I ask people like, hey, did you see the latest book by so-and-so?
45:20
SPEAKER_03: They're they'll be like, I have no idea who you're talking about.
45:23
SPEAKER_03: You know, it's like a celebrity to you and kind of our little bubble, whatever that that industry or niche is, it's it's not always a celebrity like to the larger people who aren't into that thing.
45:33
SPEAKER_03: But anyway, that's it can be really easy to be jealous of other people or to want their careers because what they have looking at it from the outside seems like that would be so awesome.
45:42
SPEAKER_03: But all of us are unique and we have to to do what brings us joy.
45:46
SPEAKER_03: For me, for example, I know that I don't ever envision that speaking is going to be a big part of what I do.
45:51
SPEAKER_03: I don't really like to travel.
45:53
SPEAKER_03: I perceive travel as just a ginormous hassle and interruption to my life.
45:58
SPEAKER_03: I know that's a kind of a negative take on it, but that's just what it feels like in my life right now.
46:02
SPEAKER_03: It's just a giant interruption that I don't enjoy for the most part.
46:06
SPEAKER_03: Um maybe a couple, a few trips a year is fine, but nothing super major.
46:11
SPEAKER_03: So I don't envision that being a big part of my future platform.
46:14
SPEAKER_03: But other people are like, oh, you gotta go out and do all this speaking and you gotta do all this travel and stuff, but you have to do what brings you joy and and fulfillment.
46:22
SPEAKER_03: Um Liz, what about you?
46:23
SPEAKER_03: Where do you envision your your long-term writing career going?
46:28
SPEAKER_03: What kinds of things do you want to be a part of that?
46:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, great question.
46:33
SPEAKER_02: Well, like Ariel, I think usually when I do this exercise, I more envision the life I want to have or the values that I wanna uphold.
46:49
SPEAKER_02: Um, I think I've I haven't been doing this a tremendous amount of time, but I think I've been doing it long enough to know that whatever I say now about what I hope is true in five to ten years will probably be different next, like if you asked me, even you know, a year from now, like years ago, I couldn't ever imagine leaving the agency that I had helped start, and then even just months ago, I don't think I would have ever told you that yeah, I would definitely be open to full-time work again.
47:19
SPEAKER_02: It just it just um things change, don't they?
47:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
47:24
SPEAKER_02: But that being said, here are some things that I really am pretty sure about.
47:28
SPEAKER_02: Um, I would love to be working on one book at a time as a ghostwriter.
47:36
SPEAKER_02: You almost never get the luxury of having one project at a time.
47:39
SPEAKER_02: It's just unless you can charge, you know, like J.R.
47:45
SPEAKER_02: Mollringer type prices, you know, like you just you almost always have to have a lot of things going.
47:51
SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's the guy who wrote uh you know Prince Harry's book for those non-du dorks out there who don't know those.
47:59
SPEAKER_02: You know what's interesting about that who a famous ghostwriter is.
48:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
48:03
SPEAKER_03: Can I make a little observation about that?
48:05
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
48:06
SPEAKER_03: Um, I'd actually love to have him on this podcast at some point.
48:10
SPEAKER_03: I can't figure out how to get in touch with him.
48:11
SPEAKER_03: Uh probably through Twitter or something.
48:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
48:15
SPEAKER_03: I I heard somewhere that, or I read somewhere, that he got a seven-figure deal for writing Prince Harry's memoir.
48:22
SPEAKER_03: Of course, that means a million dollars.
48:24
SPEAKER_03: Um, maybe more than that.
48:25
SPEAKER_03: What's interesting though is that like when you look at the numbers of that, like to the vast majority of those of us who do ghostwriting, we look at that and go, oh my gosh, that like how incredible is that you're working with this, like one of the world's most famous famous people, you're getting paid a million dollars to ghostwrite a book.
48:42
SPEAKER_03: But then I started thinking he probably spent what three years on this book.
48:45
SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's a really big book, right?
48:47
SPEAKER_03: It's very detailed.
48:48
SPEAKER_03: Now, obviously, you're not working 40 hours a week, probably seven days a week, that kind of thing, five days a week.
48:54
SPEAKER_03: Even though if you divide that by three years, that's you know$333,000 a year.
49:00
SPEAKER_03: But once you take taxes and stuff out of that, like it's not really that much money.
49:05
SPEAKER_02: Right.
49:06
SPEAKER_03: You know, like people think of like the high-level ghostwriters, and we sort of imagine that they're these like ultra-rich, wealthy people.
49:13
SPEAKER_03: But then when you look at what's required to work on those types of books and how all-encompassing it probably is, it's not really like vast sums of money, even at that level.
49:23
SPEAKER_02: No, yeah, I mean, I one of the very first contracts I signed um after I had my daughter, I had I started, I quit the agency that I worked at right when I had my daughter and used that as an excuse to like, you know, be transition into freelancing.
49:41
SPEAKER_02: So I took about three months off and then started trying to find my own work.
49:45
SPEAKER_02: And one of the first contracts I was able to sign was um to write a memoir for this amazing woman.
49:52
SPEAKER_02: And I'm I'll be like open about numbers because I find that really helpful for people.
49:57
SPEAKER_02: That contract for the entire memoir, set up to 70,000 words was 35.
50:02
SPEAKER_02: She was gonna pay, she, the contract was over$35,000 for me to write the book.
50:07
SPEAKER_02: No, that was at the time the biggest contract I had ever signed.
50:11
SPEAKER_02: And I thought, oh my gosh, someone's paying me 35.
50:14
SPEAKER_02: There's a time when I made$35,000 in a year, and I just signed a contract to write a book.
50:20
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, I have got it made in my first month of freelancing.
50:23
SPEAKER_02: I signed this, like I just thought, you know, this, I have made it.
50:27
SPEAKER_02: Like, look, it wasn't even all that hard.
50:28
SPEAKER_02: Month one, and I'm already doing it.
50:31
SPEAKER_02: That book, I am still writing that book.
50:33
SPEAKER_02: Now, this is an exception.
50:35
SPEAKER_02: Most of them don't take this long.
50:36
SPEAKER_01: Right.
50:37
SPEAKER_02: She doesn't have a traditional deadline.
50:39
SPEAKER_02: She doesn't have a traditional, we're just writing it together.
50:42
SPEAKER_02: She hopes to eventually publish it, but she doesn't have um an agent or an editor like hounding us because she's got a traditional deadline.
50:51
SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, we we had the contract was for nine to twelve months, two years later, over two years, well, just about two years still going.
50:59
SPEAKER_02: $35,000.
51:01
SPEAKER_03: I've had a couple of those, yeah.
51:02
SPEAKER_02: I found, I mean, spread out over two years.
51:05
SPEAKER_02: I found out real quick, oh, I'm gonna need this is not gonna last me.
51:10
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna have to take on some more work.
51:12
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, to your point, like, yes.
51:14
SPEAKER_02: So ideally, I have I would love to be writing my own books.
51:20
SPEAKER_02: I think most writers uh aspire to that.
51:24
SPEAKER_02: Um, so I would love to write a book, uh, my own books, but just having the luxury of working on one at a time would be amazing.
51:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, and I don't know what that looks like.
51:35
SPEAKER_02: I also um really do think that uh I love traditional publishing.
51:42
SPEAKER_02: Most of what I do is working with traditional publishers, Ariel's, and my book is traditionally published.
51:47
SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's become much more important to me lately to just help people write the book that they want to write.
51:55
SPEAKER_02: Um and yeah, and you know, obviously there's certain um benchmarks you want to hit that make sure's makes sure the book is like, quote, good or that it's delivering on its promise and well written and structured well and blah blah blah.
52:12
SPEAKER_02: There there are standards for that.
52:13
SPEAKER_02: But in general, um I don't know if it is in freelance work or full-time work or whatever, but I I just I do want to continue to help writers write the books that they that they want to write, that they're proud of, say the things that they want to say, and yeah, um and yeah, and then I I have really small kids.
52:36
SPEAKER_02: I have a two-year-old and a four-year-old.
52:39
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think I am still constantly trying to work myself like out of a hole um so that I can be more present with them, keep them home.
52:52
SPEAKER_02: They're in full-time daycare, but you know, keep them home if like if I just happen to want to that day.
52:57
SPEAKER_02: Or um, and technically I can do that, but I I still am not in a place where I can do that and not feel like I'm falling behind, you know, um, because I just have too much to do.
53:08
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I think my ideal life and contribution to the world and the publishing community would be continuing to work on books.
53:18
SPEAKER_02: I think I will always write in some capacity, but have that slow down a little bit.
53:23
SPEAKER_02: Um, and um, yeah, and just continue to like have the kind of work that allows me to um yeah, be more present, have those boundaries that Ariel talked about that I have not been good at implementing.
53:37
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if I need to get better at that, at implementing those on my own, or if perhaps I will eventually seek that in a full-time job.
53:45
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I need um I need more of that.
53:48
SPEAKER_02: And to be frank, like I want to continue to increase my income.
53:53
SPEAKER_02: It's important to me to make good money and to provide um, you know, uh to have lots of options and provide lots of cool opportunities for my kids and my family.
54:04
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so um I'm willing to compromise on some things, but I will um I do hope to continue to make a lot of money, frankly.
54:12
SPEAKER_03: So I like making money.
54:14
SPEAKER_03: I think money's good.
54:16
SPEAKER_03: I like being profitable.
54:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's that's the name of the game, right?
54:21
SPEAKER_02: I don't need to be J.R.
54:22
SPEAKER_02: Mulringer and charge people a million dollars, but um, but I um yeah, money provides opportunity and options, and I I really value that's a value in my life.
54:34
SPEAKER_02: And so that comes from money, you know?
54:37
SPEAKER_03: It does.
54:38
SPEAKER_03: And and maybe this is a a good place to begin wrapping up this conversation.
54:43
SPEAKER_03: I I love that that challenge because the more that that we improve our skills, the more value we bring to clients and to our readers.
54:52
SPEAKER_03: And I think we should always be in a place where we're always thinking about, okay, am I charging what I'm worth?
54:57
SPEAKER_03: A lot of writers don't.
54:59
SPEAKER_03: They really undervalue their skills and they undervalue what they bring to the table.
55:02
SPEAKER_03: And man, if you're a if you're a person who works with clients and and you make their life easier and you deliver a great a great product, that has a price and that has a lot of value.
55:12
SPEAKER_03: And that can really build their business or tell their story or whatever.
55:16
SPEAKER_03: So so yeah, uh love the insights that both of you shared on this.
55:20
SPEAKER_03: This is is fantastic.
55:21
SPEAKER_03: Um, let's wrap up here.
55:23
SPEAKER_03: Can both of you share where people can find hungry authors and find both of your sites in addition to anything else that you want to share about how people can connect with you.
55:35
SPEAKER_00: So Hungry Authors is on Instagram.
55:38
SPEAKER_00: It's just at Hungry Authors, and we also have a website, which is just hungryauthors.com, where you can find information about our upcoming cohorts and our podcast and everything.
55:48
SPEAKER_00: You can also listen to our podcast on Apple, Spotify, all the places that you want to listen to it, hopefully.
55:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, for myself, uh, you can go to ariel curry.substack.com to read my newsletter, and that's probably the best way to get in touch with me.
56:05
SPEAKER_03: Awesome.
56:06
SPEAKER_03: Liz, how about you?
56:08
SPEAKER_02: Um just go follow Hungry Author stuff.
56:12
SPEAKER_02: I don't really care or do personal social media very much.
56:17
SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, just go hung follow Hungry Authors.
56:19
SPEAKER_02: If you want to connect with me professionally, you can do that on LinkedIn and just search for me on LinkedIn.
56:25
SPEAKER_02: I think I'm Liz Morrow writer.
56:26
SPEAKER_02: If you just search Liz Morrow, I'll pop up.
56:28
SPEAKER_02: But um, I mean, if you want to connect with me on personal social media, that's fine.
56:33
SPEAKER_02: But I don't really prioritize that or talk a lot about writing stuff over there.
56:36
SPEAKER_02: I'd I'd much rather you go follow Hungry Authors.
56:39
SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
56:40
SPEAKER_03: Perfect.
56:41
SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you both so much.
56:42
SPEAKER_03: This has been a really, really fun conversation.
56:44
SPEAKER_03: I've learned a few things, which I is always a bonus, what I can learn from my guests.
56:49
SPEAKER_03: And uh hope this conversation is helpful to profitable writer listeners, listeners as well as hungry author listeners.
56:55
SPEAKER_03: I know they'll be checking out this episode as well.
56:57
SPEAKER_03: So thank you both so much.
56:58
SPEAKER_03: Looking forward to your book release later this year.
57:00
SPEAKER_03: That's gonna be a big hit, I'm sure.
57:03
SPEAKER_03: And uh we'll wrap it up there.
57:04
SPEAKER_03: Thanks again.
57:06
SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Kent.
57:07
SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Kent.
57:08
SPEAKER_03: I really had a blast talking with Ariel and Liz.
57:11
SPEAKER_03: They both have become really good friends, and I have so much respect for the editing and writing work that both of them do.
57:17
SPEAKER_03: So make sure and check out Liz's website at wellwrittenco.com and Ariel's website at arielcurry.com.
57:26
SPEAKER_03: And most importantly, go to the link in the show notes where you can at which goes to bookshop.org.
57:33
SPEAKER_03: Uh that link will take you to a page where you can pre-order their upcoming book, which is called Hungry Authors, The Indispensable Guide to Planning, Writing, and Publishing a Nonfiction Book.
57:44
SPEAKER_03: They've worked really hard on this book, and I remember they showed me, uh, I don't remember if it was the whole book or a draft of part of it back when they were first working on it, and it's really, really good stuff.
57:56
SPEAKER_03: So make sure and do that.
57:57
SPEAKER_03: When you do that, you're not only going to support indie bookstores, you're also going to support Ariel and Liz, who are two really cool people, absolutely worth supporting.
58:07
SPEAKER_03: So make sure and check it out.
58:08
SPEAKER_03: Hey, as always, thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time.