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Racism & Bias: Using Privilege to Amplify Others · No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women

• 0:00
  Dr. Stacey: Women and black women have often been encouraged to not speak, to not insert themselves, to be quiet, to um let men handle it.
• 0:11
  Dr. Stacey: And um that has never really worked for me, even from a little girl.
• 0:16
  Dr. Stacey: And so it's certainly as this uh middle-aged woman does not work either.
• 0:25
  Mary: For centuries, the phrase shrinking violet was used to diminish women, to suggest we were meant to be small and meek.
• 0:32
  Mary: But in nature, violets are anything but weak.
• 0:35
  Mary: They're resilient, beautiful, and essential to the ecosystem.
• 0:38
  Mary: Hi, I'm Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist, and each week I sit down with women who remind us that being compared to a violet isn't an insult.
• 0:47
  Mary: It's a testament to strength, endurance, and the power of taking up space and living by your true nature.
• 0:53
  Mary: If you're ready to stop shrinking and start thriving, you're in the right place.
• 0:57
  Mary: Hey Violets, welcome to the show.
• 1:02
  Mary: Growing up, I was surrounded largely by people that look like me.
• 1:07
  Mary: In my entire childhood, from my small town to the school I attended, I knew very few people of color.
• 1:13
  Mary: I never really thought too much about it.
• 1:16
  Mary: I didn't see them being treated any differently than other students.
• 1:19
  Mary: But I know now that was the key.
• 1:22
  Mary: I didn't see it.
• 1:23
  Mary: That doesn't mean it didn't happen.
• 1:25
  Mary: I don't remember any overt messages about race from my family.
• 1:29
  Mary: Fast forward to my work in higher education.
• 1:32
  Mary: After working for nearly 20 years in a public school system that, again, was predominantly white, I moved to a community college.
• 1:39
  Mary: For the first time, I worked in a space where a much higher percentage of people were non-white.
• 1:45
  Mary: However, those were the students, not the staff.
• 1:48
  Mary: The same issue repeated itself when I took a job at a large state university campus.
• 1:53
  Mary: The counseling staff was 100% white.
• 1:56
  Mary: The students were not, far from it.
• 1:59
  Mary: It wasn't until my work in higher ed that I actually heard the term white privilege.
• 2:04
  Mary: The more I learned, the more I felt anxiety, anxiety about saying or doing something that would make me look ignorant of my privilege, or worse, racist.
• 2:14
  Mary: However, the great part about an institution like the one where I worked, while not perfect, is that it was a priority to train staff on issues related to culture, race, and class.
• 2:25
  Mary: And this encouraged me to have different conversations with my students of color, to directly address the fact that I was a middle-aged white woman from rural Pennsylvania, which was often quite a different culture than their own, to ask how they felt about that and to empower them to tell me if they felt misunderstood or if they felt like they couldn't really be honest because of that issue.
• 2:47
  Mary: None of the clinicians for much of my tenure there were people of color.
• 2:51
  Mary: I felt that keenly with a sense of honestly embarrassment.
• 2:56
  Mary: My guest today talks about, quote, being the dot, and I didn't know what that meant until recently.
• 3:02
  Mary: But for many years, any student of color that came to our counseling center for services was a dot.
• 3:08
  Mary: That's something I will explore with my guest today.
• 3:12
  Mary: And y'all know that take up your space is a theme on this podcast, and Dr.
• 3:16
  Mary: Stacy Pearson Wharton does this in a beautiful and expansive way.
• 3:20
  Mary: Dr.
• 3:21
  Mary: Stacy is a psychologist, speaker, and passionate advocate dedicated to empowering individuals and organizations toward emotional wellness, resilience, and growth.
• 3:30
  Mary: With over 25 years of professional experience, she currently serves as Dean of Health and Wellness at Susquehanna University.
• 3:38
  Mary: This would have been my dream job in my past life, where she shapes environments that foster holistic well-being.
• 3:44
  Mary: And as the host of the podcast Being the Dot, Dr.
• 3:48
  Mary: Stacy amplifies diverse voices and shares strategies for people of color navigating predominantly white spaces.
• 3:55
  Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violets, Dr.
• 3:57
  Mary: Stacy.
• 3:58
  Mary: Oh, thank you so much for having me.
• 4:00
  Mary: I'm thrilled to be here.
• 4:01
  Mary: And I am very excited to explore some topics today.
• 4:05
  Mary: Now, the first thing I do with all of my guests, I start with having them tell me some flashball moments from their life.
• 4:12
  Mary: So those times that kind of stand out when you think back that that kind of punted you onto the next part of your journey.
• 4:21
  Mary: How did you end up where you are today doing the work that you do?
• 4:25
  Mary: Great.
• 4:25
  Mary: Thanks for that.
• 4:27
  Dr. Stacey: So I love this question because there have been several kind of um watershed moments, if you will, that have impacted and gotten here.
• 4:38
  Dr. Stacey: But that there's also been some kind of some serendipity and the mundane as well.
• 4:44
  Dr. Stacey: In high school, I ended up going to being busted to a high school on the main line from West Philadelphia, where um we were the dot, but we didn't realize it until each of us went to our respective historical colleges and universities.
• 5:10
  Dr. Stacey: And then we realized what was happening in high school.
• 5:13
  Dr. Stacey: One of the things that um sticks out for me during that time was that my school bus hit and killed a motor motorcyclist on the way to school one morning.
• 5:25
  Dr. Stacey: And the the bus that I said I was bus, and so the bus that I was on um was full of black girls, black and brown, but black girls, and we went to school that day.
• 5:38
  Dr. Stacey: There was no counseling offered, no support, like we went to school.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 5:45
  Dr. Stacey: Like it was a regular day.
• 5:46
  Dr. Stacey: And now, of course, there would have been all kinds of counselors, but I also think it had been some of our um peers who were not women of color, that I I ventured to say that it's likely that there would be um some some type of support offered because I I had seen it offered in other situations.
• 6:10
  Dr. Stacey: Um I left there, went to HBCU, which was a magical time in my life.
• 6:16
  Dr. Stacey: Um, and then since the time of graduating college, some 35, 36 years ago, I really had been in white spaces.
• 6:25
  Dr. Stacey: Um, and so uh I've been fortunate enough to serve at several higher ed institutions, both big, like the University of Michigan or University of Florida, and then um this the sweet place that I'm at now where it's not big and it's more family, more like a family, Susquehanna.
• 6:44
  Dr. Stacey: Um, and I've been the dot in all of those situations.
• 6:48
  Dr. Stacey: And I've been a woman, uh, a black woman with power and influence, which is um, you know, it's is a wrinkle.
• 6:58
  Dr. Stacey: I have been a speaker um since I was three years old.
• 7:02
  Dr. Stacey: So Jesus wept, Peter slept, whatever.
• 7:05
  Dr. Stacey: No room in the inn, whatever, whatever your thing is, and um, and I started to combine the two.
• 7:14
  Dr. Stacey: Um, I've been speaking forever, but really professionally for the last 10 years.
• 7:20
  Dr. Stacey: Um and um really trying to help um organizations, both um high schools, I mean uh colleges, but also um some uh corporate organizations and nonprofits to build a more inclusive environment and to um really help people be in relationship with each other in a way that is healthy and functional, um, and doesn't uh uh doesn't call for one group to shrink and the other not to.
• 7:48
  Dr. Stacey: Um and um and so I've been doing that kind of work now for a while, and it feels like a really wonderful marriage.
• 8:00
  Mary: Yeah, so you brought up something that I did a little research on.
• 8:04
  Mary: So your little university, which is in Sealins Grove, Pennsylvania, which is not that far from where I'm sitting right now, um, is 75% white, and the town surrounding it is 88% white, if the research is correct.
• 8:18
  Mary: So when we talk about being the dot, and as you heard in my intro, I never really thought about the experience of a person of color.
• 8:29
  Mary: Like in high school, I think there might have been five out of five students out of 150, maybe in my graduating class that were students of color.
• 8:39
  Mary: I didn't think about it.
• 8:40
  Mary: I didn't think about what is their experience like.
• 8:43
  Mary: Um so if this is a new concept, and I'm guessing it is a very new concept to many of my listeners.
• 8:49
  Mary: Tell me a little bit or tell us a little bit more about that and what that experience is like.
• 8:55
  Mary: And you mentioned, okay, yeah, go ahead.
• 8:58
  Mary: I'm gonna let you just take it away.
• 9:01
  Dr. Stacey: So I I think that I think it's important to know that we aren't living in a post-racial country.
• 9:09
  Dr. Stacey: That um race, race, and racism is still very alive and active.
• 9:13
  Dr. Stacey: And it doesn't look like the Ku Klux Klan burning crosses um on somebody's lawn, but it's more of the everyday chronic experiences of racism.
• 9:25
  Dr. Stacey: And whether that's a microaggression of someone asking to touch my hair or someone asking um a student where they're really from, know where you're really from, know where you're really from.
• 9:35
  Dr. Stacey: And the students like from America, that kind of thing.
• 9:38
  Dr. Stacey: What we know from an APA study on uh racism and stress is that 64%, uh 69% of BIPOP people have said that they've experienced some form of discrimination, and 61% report experiencing day-to-day discrimination.
• 9:57
  Dr. Stacey: Um and so it can look like um feeling like you don't belong, or um, someone coming up to me and asking me when I'm in full kind of regalia of um work, am I part of the cleaning crew?
• 10:15
  Dr. Stacey: Or are students feeling like they are being questioned around their academic competency?
• 10:22
  Dr. Stacey: Um things like being um being in the grocery store and somehow um the clerk thinking that I am using food stamps, which is nothing wrong with using food stamps.
• 10:34
  Dr. Stacey: I certainly have used them in times of economic despair, but um, but but I'm I'm not currently or uh just being questioned around a variety of things that um there often is there's often a hyper visibility, like everybody sees you because you're sticking out with an X with a bunch of O's, right?
• 10:58
  Dr. Stacey: Um and then nobody seeing you all at the same time.
• 11:02
  Dr. Stacey: And so um there are all those things that kind of play a role.
• 11:08
  Dr. Stacey: Um, what the literature talks about is the cumulative impact.
• 11:12
  Dr. Stacey: And so living in um in an environment that people are experiencing all kinds of slights and questioning and things of that nature can lead to chronic stress or similar to PTSD um reactions because of race, because of racism, not because of race.
• 11:33
  Dr. Stacey: Yeah.
• 11:35
  Mary: Yeah.
• 11:35
  Mary: So there's two directions I'm gonna go.
• 11:37
  Mary: And I'm trying to I'm sitting here thinking which which door I want to go to first.
• 11:40
  Mary: So I'm gonna go to exactly what you're talking about first, because I want to also stick a pin in this idea of by you being at the table, you are encouraging other students, other people of color to show up, to, you know, to feel represented in different spaces.
• 11:59
  Mary: But before we do that, I want to talk about what you just said because it's what I hear heard there was two things where you said you're both seen and not seen.
• 12:10
  Mary: So you're seen because you are the dot, you are the non-representative majority in that situation.
• 12:17
  Mary: You're not seen because of assumptions.
• 12:20
  Mary: You know, you're not seen as an individual.
• 12:23
  Mary: And so when you talk about things like people saying, Where are you from?
• 12:28
  Mary: Can I touch your hair?
• 12:29
  Mary: I can tell you there are a lot of people that don't understand why that is offensive.
• 12:35
  Mary: Sure.
• 12:36
  Mary: So I want to open up this conversation because as I talked about in the beginning, I think when you care about how you show up, and I will speak for myself, when I care about how I show up as a white person, there can be a lot of anxiety about what is okay to do, what is not okay to do.
• 12:54
  Mary: And then the idea of if there's someone I ask not making them feel like, oh, they're the representative black person, right?
• 13:02
  Mary: To answer the questions.
• 13:03
  Mary: Can you tease that apart a little, please?
• 13:06
  Dr. Stacey: Absolutely.
• 13:07
  Dr. Stacey: So I think that we all have implicit bias, right?
• 13:11
  Dr. Stacey: And so um, and that implicit bias informs us about a lot of things.
• 13:16
  Dr. Stacey: Like we all know that peanut butter goes with jelly, right?
• 13:20
  Dr. Stacey: We we we know that to be the case.
• 13:23
  Dr. Stacey: Um, we have some assumptions about um what um what a judge should look like, or whether an athlete should be gay or not, or could be gay or not, or um I don't know, that butter goes on potato.
• 13:39
  Dr. Stacey: We learn these things kind of in the air, if you will.
• 13:42
  Dr. Stacey: And so we're ingesting those things.
• 13:46
  Dr. Stacey: And then when we ingest those things, those things could also mean black men and violent crime, welfare and people of color, or um or a particular group is smarter than most, or dances better, that those things that that those things we come to understand, and that includes me, um, and become a part of our psyche, if you will.
• 14:14
  Dr. Stacey: And then what happens is that we then act on that and say and do things that that can feel like a slight, that can feel demeaning, that can feel um disaffiliating, and um all of the rest of the things, discouraging, etc.
• 14:32
  Dr. Stacey: etc.
• 14:33
  Dr. Stacey: Um, and so it's it's natural to sometimes mess up.
• 14:40
  Dr. Stacey: Say the wrong things, do the wrong things.
• 14:44
  Dr. Stacey: It's just we all do it.
• 14:46
  Dr. Stacey: Yesterday I was with a student and their general general identity gender identity looked different than their presentation, and I it took everything in me to not misgender that person.
• 15:02
  Dr. Stacey: Right, and I think I may have a time or two, right?
• 15:05
  Dr. Stacey: Yeah, and so in those situations, it's not to freak out like oh, I'm not racist, but just apologize.
• 15:16
  Dr. Stacey: And and and the kind of apology that is not a Beyonce apology, as I call it, sorry, not sorry, but more um of kind of first person taking ownership.
• 15:30
  Dr. Stacey: I'm sorry that that was offensive to you.
• 15:32
  Dr. Stacey: I'm sorry that I offended you, or I hurt you, or that you're disappointed that I said that, because that will de-escalate the situation faster than you're trying to explain that you voted for Obama.
• 15:48
  Mary: Yeah, no, I get what you're saying.
• 15:50
  Mary: Yes, yeah, and you know, I think that ability to have an honest conversation on both sides.
• 15:57
  Mary: I mean, I think there's defensiveness, and there's so many things that come up that create the barriers.
• 16:04
  Mary: Absolutely, absolutely, especially now, which we may get to that, we may not.
• 16:08
  Mary: But um, so thank you for getting because I think yeah, I think having that um humbleness in knowing that there are things you don't know, or it's not personal if someone is offended.
• 16:21
  Mary: It's you just like you're saying, there are people that we offend every day unintentionally.
• 16:26
  Mary: And I think being open to hearing that and reflecting on it, like where did that come from?
• 16:32
  Mary: Was that a stereotype?
• 16:33
  Mary: What did I so yeah, I think that's important to think about.
• 16:37
  Mary: And so I think the other part of this is this sense of belonging, this theme of belonging, which you know, working in higher ed, it's a huge thing.
• 16:46
  Mary: It's a big thing, right?
• 16:47
  Mary: It's a big thing.
• 16:48
  Mary: Um, and so the idea that when you are in a space, it's important to feel like you belong there.
• 16:55
  Mary: And when I think about the students, we'll talk about just your specific campus right now, knowing that they will be in spaces where they are the dot.
• 17:06
  Mary: They're also seeing someone representing, you know, this um leadership position and supportive position and having power on your campus.
• 17:19
  Mary: I think being at the table, as I mentioned before, I think that's really important.
• 17:25
  Mary: And I think it's part of just kind of shifting that, again, shifting that stereotype.
• 17:32
  Mary: And I feel like that is so empowering just in itself for students.
• 17:36
  Mary: You bet.
• 17:38
  Dr. Stacey: And I I believe that it's so that I am known as the campus auntie, and I do my best to be available for the individual students.
• 17:46
  Dr. Stacey: But what's true as well is in my role that I'm also part of the macro and policies and procedures and practices and all of those things, I try to make it as inclusive for all of our students, because that's my particular lens.
• 18:05
  Dr. Stacey: Because I I want I want our students who might identify as more conservative to feel like they belong as much of our students who um feel very minoritized about being in this environment.
• 18:20
  Mary: Well, that's a great point because again, so much of this is informed by our assumptions and our stereotyping on all sides.
• 18:30
  Mary: And so being being able to foster a conversation is tremendously important.
• 18:36
  Mary: So I'm curious, and I, you know, I mentioned the current climate nationally.
• 18:41
  Mary: I would think there are times, and I I talk about this with women in general, there are times where the easier path would be to stay silent.
• 18:50
  Mary: That's why my podcast is called No Shrinking Violence, because to take up your space takes courage.
• 18:55
  Mary: It takes, it takes a lot of stepping out of the line people want to put you in, the guardrails.
• 19:01
  Mary: So, how has that evolved for you?
• 19:04
  Mary: This idea of pushing through that barrier, or sometimes maybe even people wanting to intimidate, use fear to kind of keep you in quote, your place.
• 19:16
  Dr. Stacey: Yeah.
• 19:16
  Dr. Stacey: Well, I'm no tricking violent.
• 19:20
  Dr. Stacey: I all I say that a lot.
• 19:22
  Dr. Stacey: And so I love that that's the name of your podcast, Mary.
• 19:26
  Dr. Stacey: Um I I have found there are two things.
• 19:31
  Dr. Stacey: One I feel a responsibility and an obligation to do what I can and help what I can, especially in my little corner of the world, right?
• 19:43
  Dr. Stacey: Um, and I do that.
• 19:45
  Dr. Stacey: And so um and sometimes it's more um clandestine than outright, but it is it is not unusual for me to speak on what that seems inherently.
• 19:59
  Dr. Stacey: I'm wondering if we can think about it another way.
• 20:03
  Dr. Stacey: That it is not uncommon for me to say that kind of thing.
• 20:11
  Dr. Stacey: In fact, I think my colleagues at some level may even expect or know that I'm I'm I'm fighting for the underdog, if you will.
• 20:21
  Dr. Stacey: Maybe that's not the right twist of words, but um I'm fighting for those who have been minoritized and marginalized.
• 20:28
  Dr. Stacey: How's that?
• 20:29
  Mary: Yes, advocating for the marginalized, yes.
• 20:31
  Mary: Right.
• 20:32
  Dr. Stacey: Thank you.
• 20:32
  Dr. Stacey: Um, and um, and so uh that is kind of from my perch, if you will.
• 20:40
  Dr. Stacey: Um I have also um recently been discouraged from continuing my work around healing racism, um, the fear around being targeted and somehow getting on a list and um that kind of thing, which is real, right?
• 21:00
  Dr. Stacey: Yes.
• 21:00
  Dr. Stacey: Um but I've chosen to march on.
• 21:03
  Dr. Stacey: In fact, um my podcast has coming back.
• 21:06
  Dr. Stacey: I've been there on a little break or hiatus in March.
• 21:10
  Dr. Stacey: And so um first week.
• 21:13
  Dr. Stacey: And so I feel like I I gotta do what I can do from this particular place.
• 21:19
  Dr. Stacey: And women and black women have often been encouraged to not speak, to not insert themselves, to be quiet, to um let men handle it.
• 21:33
  Dr. Stacey: And um that has never really worked for me, even from a little girl.
• 21:37
  Dr. Stacey: And so it's certainly as this um middle-aged woman does not work either.
• 21:43
  Mary: Yeah, those messages of staying small, staying silent, you know, even when you're sitting, I've been in situations where I'm sitting at a table with mostly men, and I'll say something and there's no reaction.
• 21:57
  Mary: And then 10 minutes later, the man says the same thing.
• 22:00
  Mary: Oh, what a great idea, Stan.
• 22:02
  Mary: I'm like, are you thinking genius, right?
• 22:05
  Mary: Yeah.
• 22:07
  Mary: So that is that same idea of you're not seen or heard because you're just discounted.
• 22:13
  Dr. Stacey: Right, right, exactly.
• 22:16
  Dr. Stacey: And so, um, and sometimes I'm likely to say, Well, I said that 10 minutes ago, um, or to amplify somebody else's voice.
• 22:26
  Dr. Stacey: Well, Mary said that 10 minutes ago.
• 22:29
  Dr. Stacey: Um I think that that's important for us too, is to not just place that kind of responsibility on people who on the person that has said it or who typically take up the mantle, but you to use your social capital.
• 22:47
  Dr. Stacey: And that's something that you can do from any place, and no matter what your identities are, um, to say to stick up or amplify the voice of another.
• 23:00
  Mary: Yeah, and I think that is a great strategy to be that support, be that advocate to say, oh yeah, like Sheila just said that, or Sheila, I Sheila, I love that idea.
• 23:11
  Mary: It sounds similar to what Stan just said, you know, and and that, you know, we all know what we're really saying.
• 23:19
  Mary: And then there's that solidarity, I think, of yeah, helping each other because too often also women feel they've also been set up as competitors.
• 23:30
  Mary: Right, right.
• 23:31
  Dr. Stacey: Very, very true.
• 23:32
  Dr. Stacey: Um, so there's something to be said for that.
• 23:36
  Mary: Yeah.
• 23:37
  Dr. Stacey: Yeah.
• 23:38
  Mary: So what would you say to a young woman, a young woman of color who is coming from potentially a disadvantaged situation, or she may not have this natural privilege of, you know, just having parents that live in the right neighborhood, or who or having gone to a school where you naturally just have more of an advantage.
• 24:00
  Mary: And these are a lot of things that people don't recognize.
• 24:02
  Mary: I've had people that I know well say to me, What are you talking about?
• 24:06
  Mary: There was no redlining.
• 24:07
  Mary: Like there are a lot of ideas that people totally say, Well, that's actually not true.
• 24:13
  Mary: So if someone is feeling that, I how do I ever climb past this and achieve what I know I really can?
• 24:21
  Mary: What would you say to those young women?
• 24:25
  Dr. Stacey: I would say that the ancestors did it.
• 24:29
  Dr. Stacey: Our four sisters did it.
• 24:31
  Dr. Stacey: Yes.
• 24:32
  Dr. Stacey: And that it is possible to do it.
• 24:35
  Dr. Stacey: And so whatever your dream was or your goal or what your hopes are, that to not allow the experience of racism and sexism in your life to be a deterrent that to more make it fuel for success.
• 24:55
  Dr. Stacey: Sometimes I think, well, if my grandmother did this and she didn't have all the advantages that I have, right?
• 25:03
  Dr. Stacey: Then surely I can press on.
• 25:07
  Dr. Stacey: Yeah.
• 25:09
  Dr. Stacey: And so I think that there's um wisdom around kind of the inspirational pieces, and then the practical pieces are get a mentor, do things to feed yourself and um feed uh what you know about our history or your history, because that is inspirational as well, and it can help you understand the context of racism so that you can disconnect from it being personal and understand that it's about a system that's much bigger than just you.
• 25:47
  Mary: Yes, totally, and I think in those spaces that we talked about, you know, predominantly white spaces like college campuses, like where I worked, I think also recognizing that there are people that truly, truly feel that um barrier of someone walking into a space, wanting, for instance, what I said, counseling, and seeing every single person on that counseling staff as a white person, as someone who doesn't reflect potentially your lived experience.
• 26:19
  Dr. Stacey: Right.
• 26:19
  Dr. Stacey: And so, and it doesn't mean that it can't work, it just means that the students may be a little bit more apprehensive.
• 26:26
  Dr. Stacey: But the what the research says is that a student is more likely to seek services at a counseling center student of color if there's somebody of color, at least one person um in the space, whether they see that therapist or not.
• 26:42
  Dr. Stacey: Yes.
• 26:43
  Dr. Stacey: Uh and so representation matters.
• 26:46
  Dr. Stacey: I'll tell you this story.
• 26:48
  Dr. Stacey: I had a breast cancer scare a couple months ago.
• 26:52
  Dr. Stacey: And so, you know, you do you get the mammogram, then there's the ultrasound, and you know, two or three things, and then you have to get a biopsy.
• 27:02
  Dr. Stacey: So I had prepared myself for the biopsy, and um, you know, had gotten there, they had done all the prep work, and then the doctor was going to come in, and I was so nervous and so scared about the procedure that she come, the doctor comes in and she's an African-American woman.
• 27:20
  Dr. Stacey: I squealed with glee.
• 27:24
  Dr. Stacey: Yeah.
• 27:25
  Dr. Stacey: Just because of, and I don't think that her being African-American makes her any more or less a good doctor, but it really was about seeing myself projected back at me in my caregiver that brought a sense of comfort.
• 27:41
  Dr. Stacey: Um, and that may be true for maybe uh you identify as lesbian or Christian that you might want a Christian doctor or uh whatever the case may be, but in that moment that mattered to me.
• 27:56
  Dr. Stacey: Even though I didn't know it was gonna matter, but it did absolutely matter.
• 28:01
  Mary: Well, yeah, especially when you're in a state of heightened anxiety and concern and worry.
• 28:05
  Mary: Oh, yeah.
• 28:06
  Dr. Stacey: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 28:08
  Dr. Stacey: And so um that representation is pretty doggone important.
• 28:12
  Mary: Yeah.
• 28:13
  Mary: And so I think thinking more in those terms, being um being aware of what that experience might be like for someone, being aware of stereotypes.
• 28:25
  Mary: So another thing that I wanted to talk about related to that is, and I think this is how you and I got connected.
• 28:32
  Mary: I talked to Karen Fleshman in episode 71.
• 28:36
  Mary: She has um a group called Interracial Sisterhood.
• 28:39
  Mary: And what one of her objectives, uh, missions within combating racism is to help white women to support their sisters of color.
• 28:51
  Mary: So, can you talk a little bit from your perspective?
• 28:54
  Mary: If there's, I'm guessing there's going to be people listening, and honestly, I'm very interested.
• 28:59
  Mary: What would you say about that?
• 29:00
  Mary: How can that happen that it would be effective and feel supportive?
• 29:06
  Dr. Stacey: I love the work that Karen is doing.
• 29:08
  Dr. Stacey: So let's start there.
• 29:09
  Dr. Stacey: I think that it's bold and brave and necessary.
• 29:14
  Dr. Stacey: I think proximity does help.
• 29:18
  Dr. Stacey: And what I mean is staying disconnected and um not being involved socially or in your faith community or in your um social groups or civic groups or whatever, does keep people distanced from each other, and that connecting folks in this way can be very powerful.
• 29:44
  Dr. Stacey: And connecting women can be even more powerful because women are the carriers of the culture.
• 29:51
  Dr. Stacey: And so if you bring transformation with women, then that can go for just generations, yeah.
• 30:03
  Dr. Stacey: Because those women that will transfer that if they are a parent to their parenting and to their rearing of their children in a way that might be almost synced.
• 30:15
  Dr. Stacey: Yeah.
• 30:17
  Mary: Yeah.
• 30:18
  Dr. Stacey: And so I I I think it's really important.
• 30:20
  Mary: And I think one of the things that Karen talks about is that white women have a power in this situation that we don't really recognize and or utilize.
• 30:33
  Dr. Stacey: Yes, yes, that that's true.
• 30:36
  Dr. Stacey: Being able to use your privilege, meaning um the fact that you get the benefits of doubt, you get the goodies, your salaries are higher.
• 30:45
  Dr. Stacey: Um, being able to use that, and and like like what I said in a meeting, that sounds similar to what Karen said.
• 30:52
  Dr. Stacey: Um and and as to what John said, and I really like that idea.
• 30:57
  Dr. Stacey: Just that kind of way, or being able to step in and say, you know, don't do that.
• 31:03
  Dr. Stacey: That's racism.
• 31:04
  Dr. Stacey: We don't we don't talk about people that way, we'll be received differently, we'll often be received differently from you than from me, Mary.
• 31:13
  Mary: I think that I think that's really true.
• 31:15
  Mary: And so one of the things I want to pull all this together, sort of, we can put a big old bow on this.
• 31:21
  Mary: So one of the things that I think coexists is the idea that we are more comfortable with people that look like us.
• 31:28
  Mary: True.
• 31:29
  Mary: And that we the discomfort and fear is what then reinforces us not moving out of that space.
• 31:40
  Mary: Yes.
• 31:40
  Mary: So that to me seems to be I think we're seeing that now.
• 31:44
  Mary: Yes.
• 31:46
  Mary: Tell me tell tell me a little more about that.
• 31:48
  Mary: What me what what thought made you say that?
• 31:51
  Dr. Stacey: Well, the cycle of racism is progress, white backlash, um a legal response, and um and then you back go back to progress.
• 32:04
  Dr. Stacey: And so I do think that part of um the concern about people who are undocumented, and particularly supposedly criminals that are undocumented, is about some of this as well.
• 32:19
  Dr. Stacey: I only know people in my space, and so that we're able to objectify people who are not in your space to be the boogeyman.
• 32:28
  Dr. Stacey: And I also think that people feeling encroached upon, because we know that there's a browning of America, right?
• 32:38
  Dr. Stacey: Yeah, and um, you know, typically when a person of color moves into a predominantly white neighborhood, there's oftentimes white flight.
• 32:47
  Dr. Stacey: And I think this is white flight in reverse.
• 32:51
  Dr. Stacey: Um yeah, and so that's why.
• 32:54
  Dr. Stacey: Yeah.
• 32:56
  Mary: Well, and it's ironic to me that we talk about the white majority, and we're not gonna be the majorities.
• 33:02
  Dr. Stacey: Not here.
• 33:02
  Mary: We're we're definitely not the global majority right now, right?
• 33:05
  Mary: Definitely not the global majority.
• 33:07
  Mary: So when there's people that really want to push past that fear, but the fear is real, and more I would say, discomfort, discomfort with exactly what we talked about in the beginning, offending somebody, saying the wrong thing.
• 33:21
  Mary: What would you advise for that?
• 33:22
  Mary: Karen's trainings are definitely one way, I think it's a beautiful way.
• 33:26
  Mary: So, are there like would you recommend any books or any actions or anything that helps people move out of that space?
• 33:36
  Dr. Stacey: I would recommend how to be anti-racist by Kendi, is one that I think is really good.
• 33:41
  Dr. Stacey: White Fragility is also nice racism, both by Rob and D'Angelo are good um books to read around this.
• 33:50
  Dr. Stacey: There is Black History AF.
• 33:54
  Dr. Stacey: Yes, is also a good one.
• 33:57
  Dr. Stacey: And if you want to understand more uh about the experiences of people of color, also a good one is in my grandmother's hands.
• 34:08
  Mary: Okay.
• 34:08
  Mary: Uh yeah.
• 34:09
  Mary: And I'm gonna link all that.
• 34:11
  Mary: And it was more to say, you know, this it's a strategy.
• 34:15
  Mary: Pushing through fear is a strategy.
• 34:17
  Mary: And I think we all have our we all have our threshold where I'm seeing people crying, like friends of mine will cry and say, I feel like I need to do something.
• 34:29
  Mary: What can I do?
• 34:30
  Mary: But it's sort of like some of us have the luxury of being in a safe space and knowing we're safe just because of what we look like, but feeling this, we want to do something more.
• 34:38
  Dr. Stacey: And I think that is I I would say that what's happening locally is equally important.
• 34:46
  Dr. Stacey: And so maybe your local AFLCU, is that right?
• 34:50
  Dr. Stacey: Or your local NAACP.
• 34:53
  Dr. Stacey: Um, and so getting involved with them and supporting what they're doing and their activities, um, including getting involved civically as well or politically, and when the calls go out to call about something um that could potentially be experienced as racism, that you are doing that as well.
• 35:16
  Dr. Stacey: It's interesting.
• 35:18
  Dr. Stacey: Um, in Minneapolis, one of the ways that the group of people that are resisting was doing an early warning sign for people, which is a whistle.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:31
  Dr. Stacey: And so often you will, if you watch any of the news, you will hear the whistle.
• 35:37
  Dr. Stacey: And the whistle is like a warning sign that ICE is near.
• 35:42
  Dr. Stacey: And I thought that was a way to engage that doesn't, you know, get you arrested, unless that's what you want to do, um, but also is helpful to the people that you think need to be helped.
• 35:55
  Dr. Stacey: Yeah.
• 35:56
  Mary: Yeah.
• 35:56
  Mary: And I'll end with two things, and then I want you to tell us.
• 35:59
  Mary: I know you offer a few things on your website, so I wish you'd be able to talk about them.
• 36:03
  Mary: But two things I'm gonna um mention before we wrap this up is the how to be an anti-racist.
• 36:10
  Mary: I read that book and I wanted to tell people you need to arm yourself with curiosity because when I read what he said about we're all racist, my initial gut reaction was, I'm not racist.
• 36:22
  Mary: And I had to put that aside and really read what he was saying to understand that we all start with a framework, like you said in the beginning, that we function from.
• 36:34
  Mary: The other thing that I think is powerful, like you're saying, you can take a small role and that can give you more courage because you feel you're part of something moving in a positive direction.
• 36:45
  Mary: And my husband and I decided we live in a very, very rural part of Pennsylvania.
• 36:51
  Mary: We're moving into a city because we just want proximity with a community, with diversity, with something that's so different than what we have now.
• 37:01
  Mary: And I think that proximity opens up opportunities and I think gives you pathways for impact that you might not have in certain situations or environments.
• 37:14
  Dr. Stacey: I think you're right.
• 37:14
  Dr. Stacey: Yeah.
• 37:15
  Dr. Stacey: Um, I think you're absolutely right.
• 37:17
  Dr. Stacey: And I think that is part of how I manage being in a rural area like you, is that I find spaces and times to be in areas that are more diverse.
• 37:31
  Mary: Yeah.
• 37:31
  unknown: Yeah.
• 37:32
  Dr. Stacey: Yeah.
• 37:33
  Mary: Well, Dr.
• 37:33
  Mary: Stacy, thank you so much.
• 37:35
  Mary: I've I've loved our conversation.
• 37:37
  Mary: So tell us a little bit about what you have to offer, and then I will link your website.
• 37:43
  Mary: And I'm actually gonna link the books also that we talked about.
• 37:46
  Mary: I'm gonna put all that in our show notes.
• 37:48
  Dr. Stacey: So I'm really trying to help specifically black women disrupt the impact of racism in their lives.
• 37:56
  Dr. Stacey: And I have a couple things.
• 37:57
  Dr. Stacey: Um, drcy inspires.org is my website, and there are all kinds of things that are there.
• 38:03
  Dr. Stacey: There's free stuff and stuff that comes with the cost.
• 38:05
  Dr. Stacey: One of the things that I'm proud of is that I have this affirmation card deck, and so we see these all the time.
• 38:12
  Dr. Stacey: And this one is the one I love for today.
• 38:15
  Dr. Stacey: It says, I've earned a seat at every table that I sit at.
• 38:19
  Dr. Stacey: And so um, they're pretty universal and um right on the website for you.
• 38:25
  Dr. Stacey: And I think I'll give you a code of um NSV for a 10% discount.
• 38:31
  Dr. Stacey: Oh, I love that.
• 38:33
  Dr. Stacey: I'm also available for speaking and keynotes and talks and that kind of thing for companies andor colleges.
• 38:41
  Dr. Stacey: I I do therapy work um as well, particularly here in the state of Pennsylvania, North Carolina, and Michigan.
• 38:47
  Dr. Stacey: And the last thing is uh I have a course, Healing Racism course for people, an online course that you can purchase on the website.
• 38:56
  Dr. Stacey: And so that's there for you.
• 38:57
  Dr. Stacey: Come on over and check out what we have at drsaceyinspires.org.
• 39:03
  Mary: Thank you for all of that.
• 39:04
  Mary: So the cards that you read, the front of them says be is it being the dot.
• 39:10
  Mary: Being the dot.
• 39:11
  Mary: So yes, they are on your website.
• 39:14
  Mary: And so we will also post an NSV, no shrinking violets 10% code, which is great.
• 39:21
  Mary: And thank you again for being here.
• 39:25
  Mary: I want to thank everybody so much for listening.
• 39:27
  Mary: Please drop me a text with your thoughts at the link at the top of the show notes.
• 39:32
  Mary: I would love to read your thoughts on a future episode.
• 39:35
  Mary: And until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant violet that you are.