Latest / Future Christian / Jessica Dominguez on Mobilizing Churches for Affordable Housing

Transcript

Jessica Dominguez on Mobilizing Churches for Affordable Housing · Future Christian

0:05
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your
0:08
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:11
church into the 21st century.
0:15
At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
0:18
pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful
0:21
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
0:24
community of faith walk boldly into the future.
0:27
Now, here's your host, Loren Richmond, Jr.
0:34
Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today,
0:37
we're welcoming Jessica Dominguez to the show.
0:40
Jessica is a teacher faithled affordable
0:43
housing development advisor and advocate.
0:45
In 2019, Jessica took a leave from a
0:48
20 year career teaching public school to research
0:51
affordable housing solutions and ended up
0:54
helping to shape the city's housing priorities as a
0:57
member of Denver's housing advisory committee.
1:01
During that time, she was named one of Denver.
1:03
It's who's next in housing. She
1:06
is a graduate of the Real Estate diversity Initiative
1:09
through Urban Land Institute and helped lead the
1:12
congregational Land campaign of the Interfaith
1:15
alliance of Colorado. Currently,
1:17
Jessica serves as the co director of housing
1:20
development at Mile High Ministries.
1:23
In this role, she provides churches with education
1:26
and technical assistance through the abundant ground
1:29
program, empowering them to transform
1:32
underutilized land into affordable housing
1:35
solutions. Additionally, Jessica is a co
1:38
owner of Love Thy Neighbor, a ah, mission driven
1:40
real estate group dedicated to resisting
1:43
displacement and fostering affordable housing
1:46
opportunities. Her commitment to addressing
1:48
housing challenges has made her a driving force
1:51
in creating positive change within communities.
1:55
Let's welcome Jessica to the show.
2:04
Hey, welcome to Future Christian podcast. This is Loren Richmond
2:07
Jr. And I am here with Jessica Dominguez,
2:10
recording live and in person after
2:13
some pretty serious technological
2:16
challenges. So, Jessica, thank you so much for
2:19
hanging with me. Uh, we'll talk you a little bit more about
2:22
where we're at and why we're recording here and all that jazz.
2:25
But, uh, before we get going, anything else you'd
2:28
like our listeners to know about you?
2:30
Yeah, I guess something that wasn't in the bio is
2:33
that I lead the Denver classroom Teachers
2:35
association affordable housing committee, and I
2:38
helped start that a few years back when we were
2:41
seeing the displacement of, um, students and teachers in
2:44
the cool.
2:46
I feel like that could be a good conversation right there in itself.
2:49
Totally. There's so much schools are getting involved in
2:52
the affordable housing conversation, so it's exciting.
2:55
We're also here with. Who's our third guest? That won't
2:58
be.
2:58
This is honey.
2:59
Honey. This is, unfortunately, an audio podcast,
3:02
so we may or may not hear
3:04
honey, but can
3:07
see her, um, share a
3:10
little bit about your faith journey, if you would. What that looks like
3:13
in the past, what it looks like today.
3:14
Yeah, sure. Um, I grew up in a
3:18
charismatic environment, so there was
3:21
a lot of emphasis on the dependency of
3:24
God, the bigness of God, relying on God's
3:26
spirit, um, to empower you, to
3:29
speak to you. And it was really
3:32
experiential, and I still rely on that a lot
3:35
today.
3:35
Yeah.
3:36
And I think the way it has changed is
3:39
that I was
3:43
kind of. There's a lot of fear
3:46
based stuff and very,
3:49
um,
3:51
introspective versus
3:54
out into the world. And,
3:56
um, there was a lot of separation
3:59
and just fear. And I don't see
4:02
life that way anymore. It's more of
4:05
wonder and awe in that God is in the
4:08
city and God is in nature and God is in others.
4:10
And, um, I ask a
4:13
lot more questions. Where before it was like, really
4:16
dogmatic and this is what you believe
4:19
and, um,
4:22
I have more questions now, but yet I feel
4:25
closer to God than I ever have.
4:29
Cool.
4:29
Um, what are some spiritual
4:32
practices, some spiritual disciplines that have been meaningful
4:35
for you?
4:37
Yeah, I, um, get really
4:40
emotional when I'm in
4:43
corporate worship or,
4:46
um, around taking communion. And
4:49
I was thinking about that and I was wondering why. And I think it's
4:51
just how symbolic,
4:54
of course, communion is and that
4:58
I'm, um, able to focus on the greatness of God and
5:01
his sacrifice for me. And just as
5:04
he said, remember me in this, um,
5:08
more lately, it's around I'm
5:11
feeling deep connection to my
5:13
work and how God is using
5:16
me at work. And, um, I
5:19
just feel very missional in it and I feel God
5:22
leading me and guiding, well, us.
5:24
Um, when I say us, I mean, uh, my husband and I were kind of
5:27
doing this work together alongside Mile high ministries.
5:30
So I feel God in my
5:33
work. Um, another thing that I've been really
5:36
just asking God for is
5:39
to show me the preciousness
5:42
of people. Because when you're doing
5:44
affordable housing work, um,
5:47
it's difficult, right. And you're
5:50
relying so much on numbers and funding
5:53
and trying to make things work, and
5:56
sometimes you lose the face
5:59
of people and that importance. So
6:02
I've just been asking God to show me the preciousness
6:05
of people and how he loves them and how he
6:08
cares for them. Um,
6:10
I've just been digging into that a little bit.
6:13
Well, that's good because
6:16
we've talked about free recording
6:19
and, uh, for our listeners
6:21
here, I myself work in affordable housing and I know how
6:24
easy it is to kind of get lost
6:27
in the grind.
6:30
Yes, the grind, the grind.
6:32
I mean, that's obviously an indie job, but,
6:34
um, yeah, that's so good.
6:37
I love to talk to you about, for 20, 30 minutes
6:40
about communion, too. But that's not what this podcast is
6:43
for today.
6:45
Um, so you mentioned kind of your work
6:47
tying into your ministry. Just talk about how you
6:50
got into the work and
6:53
the ministry or the company that you're
6:56
with today.
6:57
Yeah. So, in 2018, I
7:00
was teaching first graders, and I was
7:03
reading a book, and it was called every. It was a science
7:06
book, and it was called every living thing has a
7:09
home. And I looked out
7:11
into my audience of little first graders, and
7:14
there was a first grader there just looking back at me, eyes
7:17
wide open, ready to learn science. And I knew she was
7:20
living in the car with her family.
7:21
Wow.
7:23
And I began to, like God, began to speak
7:25
to my heart, not audibly, but the way he moves you
7:28
in your spirit and just say, what are you going to do about this?
7:31
And so my husband and I just started
7:34
researching everything affordable housing
7:36
related. Um,
7:39
and I felt like, I remember,
7:42
I think it was in August, and I was getting
7:45
ready, setting up my classroom, and I felt
7:48
like I was supposed to take the year off
7:51
m to research this. And I called
7:54
up my husband, and I said, I feel
7:57
like God is asking me to do this, but I don't know. He said, you
8:00
better make sure that's God.
8:03
And so the funny thing is that my
8:05
cousin, who's a pastor, never m
8:08
calls was. And he
8:11
called me that day m and he said, jessica, you were
8:14
just on my mind, and I want you to know that when God
8:17
speaks to you, you should listen to him.
8:19
Wow.
8:20
And so for a six on the enneagram, who needs
8:23
security, right?
8:24
Yeah.
8:24
That was kind of like propelling my faith
8:27
a little bit.
8:28
Wow.
8:28
And so I also had another barrier, though. We
8:31
were getting ready to start school, and so I went to my
8:34
principal, and I said, listen, I know this is going to put you in a jam.
8:37
Right?
8:38
Um, because at that time, I was in a leadership
8:41
position also. I was coaching other teachers, and I said, but
8:43
I really feel like I'm supposed to take the year off
8:46
to figure out this housing crisis that we're in.
8:49
It was also teachers, and so took that year
8:52
off, um, just began to connect with the
8:55
affordable housing community.
8:57
Um, I don't know how this happened, but
9:00
Denverite wrote an article, um,
9:03
like, who's next in housing? And I wasn't really
9:06
doing anything, Loren I was just out there kind of
9:09
like John the Baptist preaching, like,
9:12
who's doing anything about affordable housing?
9:14
The way of affordable housing.
9:16
Exactly. And so they wrote about me,
9:19
and, um, I got connected through that article
9:22
to a dear friend, nathan, um, Davis hunt, who
9:25
was leading the congregation land campaign at that time
9:27
with interfaith alliance. And they were hiring a part
9:30
timer, um, to help them with the churches. And
9:33
so I did that for about a year.
9:36
Covid hit and being the 6th
9:39
that I am on the enneagram, needing that security, I went
9:42
back to teaching. And
9:45
um, during that time, my
9:47
husband, uh, we own a company called Love thy
9:50
neighbor. And we were really focused on affordable
9:53
for sale housing. And we worked with habitat for a time
9:56
and other nonprofits that were providing
9:59
affordable housing, um,
10:02
for homeownership, which is different than market rate. Right.
10:05
And so he was doing that. I was
10:07
teaching, still involved with the community, but not as
10:10
deeply. Right. Because I was teaching full time.
10:13
Um, we decided about a year
10:16
and a half ago that we, you know,
10:19
is everything.
10:23
We, um.
10:24
I guess we felt a little discouraged. We were just
10:26
talking about how do you know when to give?
10:28
Yeah.
10:29
Right.
10:29
Yeah.
10:29
And things weren't going that well with the
10:32
business and I can teach anywhere. And we thought,
10:35
well, maybe God's moving us to Kansas City. That's where my husband's
10:38
from. And so we went out there for the summer
10:41
and just, you know, it is affordable here. We can
10:44
help people here, maybe we can take what we've
10:47
know. We knew a ton about deed restrictions
10:50
and we knew a little bit about development. We had
10:53
gone through the ready program, through
10:55
Uli, and while we were out
10:58
there, Jeff Johnson,
11:00
um, my boss now and long
11:03
term mentor, called me and he said,
11:06
hey, Jess, what do you think about starting up
11:09
the congregation land campaign again and helping churches?
11:12
And I said, well, I don't know,
11:14
let's explore the idea. And Nathan had moved to
11:17
Boston. There was leadership changes at interfaith
11:20
and we just began to, for the last year, kind of
11:23
cultivate, um, the relationships again
11:26
and see who's doing what and if there was
11:29
really a need. Right. And so we just had that webinar,
11:32
um, which was so well attended. There
11:35
were, I think, about
11:37
100 faith leaders that signed up and
11:40
about 60 that actually attended.
11:42
Um, and so they need
11:45
advicement, they need to know what their steps
11:48
are. They also want to do that in
11:51
a spiritual context. And how is the
11:54
Lord calling them to use their property? How is the Lord
11:57
calling them to steward their land? And so
12:00
you can't really know that without really knowing your options
12:02
as. So, um, yeah,
12:05
we've just been going at it and at the same time,
12:09
my role here is co director of housing
12:12
development. So I help a little bit with the development at
12:14
Clara Brown Commons, where we are at now.
12:17
And. Yeah, so that's how
12:20
I'm here. Sorry. A lot
12:23
in there. No, that's great.
12:24
Let's talk about. Real quick, let's talk about
12:28
Claire Brown Commons, where we're recording right now,
12:30
because you said something about the lord
12:33
working, and you told me a cool story behind it.
12:36
I want our audience to hear that.
12:39
Yeah. So we're in the cool neighborhood, east
12:41
side Denver, and, um, Jeff Johnson, our
12:44
executive director at Mile High ministries, lives
12:47
in this neighborhood. And for the
12:50
last, I don't know, 20 years, this has been a blighted
12:53
kind of area. And Jeff would frequently
12:56
walk around this area, and he would pray,
12:59
and he would pray that the Lord would do something good with
13:02
this land. And then he started praying,
13:05
lord, if you give me this land, I will do something good with
13:08
it. And it so happened that
13:11
the person that owned the land, I guess I
13:14
don't want to say too much about it, but it ended up
13:17
being for sale.
13:18
Right.
13:19
And, um, somebody on city council
13:21
called Jeff and said, hey, this land that you've been
13:24
praying for for 20 years
13:27
is up for sale. M and Jeff was like, well,
13:30
I don't know how I'm going to buy it, but step
13:33
one. And he had went to a Bible study soon
13:36
after that, and, um, one of his
13:39
friends, uh, just of wealthy
13:42
means, asked him, hey, Jeff, what are you dreaming
13:45
about? And that actually
13:47
provided kind of the down payment for us to get the
13:50
land. And then it is a tax credit deal.
13:53
And so there was some of that. And then we raised funds as
13:56
well. So it wasn't like it was just God
13:59
delivered it on a silver platter.
14:03
It was a struggle to get here, but it was a beautiful
14:06
struggle. Um, and we just had our
14:09
grand opening and celebrated, and it was just like a day
14:11
long celebration that ended in praise and worship
14:14
and just gratitude.
14:17
Yeah, I mean, I got to tour the building.
14:20
It's amazing. Um, it
14:23
really is incredible just to see this. And
14:27
as beautiful as this building is, as amazing
14:30
as getting all the pieces to come together,
14:34
I think I want to emphasize that story
14:37
of him praying for 20 years.
14:40
Um, and maybe, if anything, to
14:42
emphasize, as I'm m sure you'd agree, the
14:45
importance of just committing prayer and
14:48
discernment when it comes around
14:51
anything, but especially building and land
14:54
usage. Right. For churches.
14:56
Right. Because it's one of our greatest assets that we have.
14:59
And, um, you just recently had Mark Elston
15:01
on, and once it's gone, it's gone.
15:05
And so, yeah, prayer
15:08
and action as well. Just not even that. You
15:11
have to do something right away. But get the education,
15:14
get a team of advisors around you who
15:17
can help guide you and help answer your
15:19
questions and help discern with you.
15:22
Um, and I find that
15:25
it's layered, right? There's just different layers of
15:27
discernment and, um, that involves
15:30
technical questions that the church has.
15:33
Like does the zoning allow for this? How
15:36
much do these buildings cost? What kind of partnerships
15:39
do we want? Um, how are these buildings
15:42
paid for? And, um, a good
15:44
advisor will help you with all of that.
15:47
Yeah, so we've just been talking spiritual and I do want
15:50
to kind of get into the nitty gritty because obviously,
15:52
as much as I think it's important to pray and discern
15:55
around these things, if anything, I want to
15:58
learn from you so our audience can be along for the
16:01
ride here.
16:04
Um, let's talk about,
16:07
I'm thinking of a church up in the neck of the woods where
16:10
I live. Right. Been around since I think
16:13
the 80s, have a big, huge plot of
16:15
land behind them. Um, so
16:18
let's just imagine, right?
16:20
Mhm.
16:20
That this church comes to you. It's like, hey, we'd love
16:23
to develop this land for some kind of
16:26
affordable housing. What are the first questions
16:29
or steps that you're giving them?
16:30
Well, the first part of it is the discernment, right. You
16:33
come with prayer, you come with a group from your church that
16:36
can help you make these decisions. You begin
16:39
to look outward and say, who is God
16:42
calling us to serve? Um, what does this neighborhood
16:45
need? Who is God calling us to be
16:48
in this instance? Because there is a
16:51
range of how a church can be involved. Right? You
16:53
see, churches that have developed themselves
16:56
are running their building, but then you have churches
16:59
that had somebody else develop their building, but then
17:02
they're running it and managing it. So
17:05
there's a lot of what ifs in it, and
17:08
it's just going along the discernment path
17:11
and asking these questions, um, until
17:14
you find that right fit and where you
17:17
feel like, okay, this feels right, we're
17:20
comfortable with this.
17:22
So in the webinar, and we'll have to put a link for the
17:25
webinar in the show notes because you recorded, right?
17:28
I did.
17:28
Okay, perfect.
17:29
Um, can I say something about that?
17:31
Yeah, go ahead.
17:31
Okay, so this is so cool.
17:33
Um, well, I think it's cool. I don't know if you will.
17:36
Um, so my husband was helping me because he's an it guy
17:40
and it was kind of my first big webinar
17:43
and he forgot to press record.
17:45
Ah.
17:45
Right away. But the part that he pressed
17:48
record on it was when Mark Elston
17:51
said, right at the moment, Mark said,
17:53
God is not in decline. M
17:56
and to me, I was just like, that was a message
17:59
for me, because when we talk about the housing
18:02
crisis, sometimes it feels so
18:05
big and it feels like, lord, can we even do
18:08
anything about this? And so I almost felt
18:11
like, hey, maybe God was giving us m. A message right
18:14
there.
18:15
Yeah.
18:16
So you'll hear it, though.
18:17
Yeah.
18:19
Um, so
18:23
let's give some examples, because
18:26
I think that was interesting for me just in the webinar, just
18:29
to see in here. So give, like, three
18:32
or four examples that you gave from the webinar. For instance,
18:35
what are churches are doing? Because I was surprised to see the
18:38
kind of vast array of what different churches are doing.
18:41
Yeah. So Lutheran Church of hope in Broomfield,
18:44
anchor house, they're, um, servicing
18:47
former foster youth, and they actually took
18:49
on the management piece of that. Um, and
18:53
also in the resources that I send from the webinar,
18:55
it has links to their story, and it's just beautiful.
18:58
Uh, made me cry. Um, solid rock in
19:01
Colorado Springs, pastor, um, Ben did a
19:04
litech deal. Um, Augustana
19:06
Lutheran, they're doing affordable home ownership.
19:09
Agape was on the webinar. Um, they did
19:12
permanent, um, supportive housing for those coming out of,
19:16
um.
19:18
What's that?
19:19
Agape church, charity house. Charity house, yeah.
19:22
Okay. Um, and then heart of the Rockies,
19:25
you had pastor Melissa st. Clair on there,
19:27
um, in Fort Collins. And I have an
19:30
ongoing list of that. But, um, yeah. Watching the
19:33
webinar will give you a little more details on that.
19:36
Yeah, this is good. This is good.
19:37
M so, for my own curiosity, and
19:40
hopefully this will be relevant to our listeners, I'm thinking about
19:43
what does it involve as far as the land, the
19:46
nitty gritty of the land. I've heard a lot
19:49
about 99 year leases type things.
19:51
Totally.
19:51
Uh, is it transferring land? Which I imagine,
19:54
obviously, it sounds like for the one lutheran
19:57
church, it sounds like they have control still
20:00
over everything. Yeah.
20:02
And a lot of it comes down to denominational, uh,
20:06
governance and what they all allow you to do.
20:09
So you do see some land leases. You see
20:11
some, um, churches maybe selling
20:14
a portion of the land to help leverage, um,
20:17
building on another portion.
20:19
Okay.
20:19
You see help with the financing. You
20:22
see, um, some cases where the
20:25
land is donated.
20:29
Um. You see some cases where the
20:32
church decides to develop themselves. You
20:35
see a copartnership. Um,
20:37
it just depends on what the finances
20:40
of the church, how much risk the church is
20:43
willing to take on how much
20:46
capacity they have to enter
20:48
into some kind of development and
20:51
yeah, it just becomes a point of
20:54
negotiation, really. Um, what we
20:57
do is, well, what we've done in the past is
21:00
we write a request for proposals, um, based
21:02
on what the church needs, what the church wants, and we
21:05
send that out to um, mission and aligned
21:08
developers. And then the church
21:10
can kind of see what's on the table for
21:13
them and they begin to negotiate
21:16
what's best for them.
21:18
Okay, so I'm curious,
21:22
are these always instances where it's like low
21:25
income ami area meeting income
21:28
type housing, or are there situations where
21:31
it's like a church is like, hey, we
21:34
want to just develop our land to have
21:36
some kind of revenue stream. Is that even a possibility?
21:39
I think that is totally a possibility. And I think
21:42
something else, even though what we're focused on.
21:45
Right.
21:45
I think it's not an either or. It
21:48
could be an and. Sure,
21:52
maybe they can do half and half to
21:54
um, offset whatever they need.
21:56
Right.
21:57
Um, I think that could be
22:00
a possibility. Um, when you're thinking about affordable
22:03
housing though, um, you're thinking the zero to
22:05
80% ami right
22:08
area mediation. Um, that's where most
22:11
of the funding is going to be coming from. So
22:14
if you're thinking something beyond that,
22:17
you're going to have to either come
22:19
with that or fund. Let's talk
22:22
about a loan.
22:23
Let's talk about funding here. Uh, because you used
22:26
the.
22:29
Litech, uh-huh.
22:30
Low income housing tax credit. Right. So um,
22:33
I'm just learning about that a little bit myself in
22:35
my context of work. Share a little bit about that for our
22:38
listeners and how so tax credits.
22:41
Are given for affordable housing.
22:44
Um, it's an application.
22:48
Mhm.
22:48
Uh, a lot of people apply and
22:51
so usually, um,
22:54
you have to have some type of experience
22:57
to apply or go in
23:00
with somebody that has the experience,
23:02
um, doing this deal.
23:05
Um, Claire Brown Commons, we had a lot of help
23:08
with, um, very experienced developers, very
23:11
experienced consultants. Um, but
23:14
yeah, um, it's an application through
23:16
chafa.
23:18
And just again, for context,
23:21
the company that I work for, a housing authority,
23:25
put in an application for one of these
23:28
loan housing tax credits and didn't get it.
23:31
Yeah, there's only so much money in the pot to go
23:33
around and it.
23:35
Does cost to put in the application,
23:38
right. Um, yeah, it's going to cost
23:41
you something.
23:42
Now in my work context, the
23:45
housing authority does have a
23:48
loan basically
23:51
for some chunk of the money they have equity.
23:53
They're uh-huh.
23:56
I mean, how much equity does a church
23:58
need to have?
24:03
Again, that is going to depend on what they're building
24:06
and what they want to do.
24:08
Um, if you're building like boring right now,
24:11
60 some units, you're probably going to need to bring a
24:14
good chunk of equity. But like with the
24:17
lutheran church in.
24:19
Broomfield, I think the pre development
24:22
costs, um, if you would do
24:24
something on your own, could range from 50 to
24:27
100,000.
24:31
But um, if you go through something
24:34
like abundant ground, we help offset that because we're
24:37
working with technical, um, experts that
24:40
have agreed to give the church a discount.
24:42
So I don't want the church to
24:45
worry about that. But
24:49
we just don't enter. Let's give
24:52
you technical. Yeah, it's not Willy nilly for sure.
24:54
Some discernment and prayer.
24:57
Right. Because we're putting a lot of skin in the game for it
25:00
and uh, we want you to have some skin in the game
25:02
as well.
25:06
Trying to think of, I feel like there's so many questions
25:09
here,
25:10
um, you
25:17
don't want to get like worst case scenario, but
25:22
where would you advise against the church doing this?
25:25
I can imagine. Obviously
25:27
if a church is, like we said, willy nilly, haven't
25:30
really spent some time in prayer, don't have buy in
25:33
from the congregation leadership. Uh, what are some
25:36
other. We appreciate
25:39
your heart. This is not going to work.
25:41
I think if they're in a real
25:44
financial crisis themselves,
25:47
we don't want them to make a decision based out of
25:50
kind of fear. Um,
25:53
so we
25:56
would advise against that. And
25:59
we see that happen mostly when
26:02
churches have waited too long
26:05
to get some kind of counsel around this.
26:07
And there have been times
26:10
where we might say it just might be
26:13
better to sell and pay off your debt.
26:16
Um, but that would be
26:18
like the last option if we.
26:22
Oh, and something else I didn't. So, uh, churches are doing social
26:25
enterprise out of there. There were churches
26:27
that I have talked to that they're doing affordable
26:30
housing and these small business
26:33
startups, which is beautiful.
26:36
So they're doing like a housing project on the land
26:39
and then they're using some of their existing space.
26:42
So there's really a lot of, there's so many options.
26:45
And that's why I think discernment is also about
26:48
creativity and looking at the needs
26:51
of your community and what is your community asking you
26:54
for. And a lot
26:57
of churches are helping with ece,
27:00
um, food deserts,
27:03
um, grocery stores.
27:04
Uh, yeah. Ah, because
27:07
uh, I did an MBA a couple of
27:10
years ago and one of the first projects I had
27:13
to do was like a big research report
27:17
and obviously my data
27:20
wasn't scientific per se, for instance, because
27:23
I kind of be like, hey, fill out my survey about
27:25
how much you need early childhood support.
27:28
But you think about the costs.
27:32
From my recollection, the biggest drivers of
27:35
costs are going to be overhead and staffing.
27:38
Ah, you obviously can't control staffing.
27:41
Mhm.
27:41
People cost what they cost. You got to have the ratios
27:44
right. But with the church, you can control
27:47
overhead. You're not paying rent
27:49
necessarily. Or if you are, however
27:52
that's arranged, that can be severely discounted, I imagine, for
27:55
a church.
27:56
Exactly. And it's about partnerships,
27:59
if you look at our list out here, of the
28:02
people we partnered with, because you can't do this alone.
28:05
Right.
28:05
And so something that I feel like is a
28:08
theme that I'm seeing is like this idea of
28:10
intersectionality and partnership. How can you partner with
28:13
the government, or how can you partner with somebody that is
28:16
an expert at running an ECE or running
28:19
a business? So, um, the
28:21
church doesn't have to necessarily be an expert
28:24
at it. They just have to be willing to ask the
28:27
right questions and willing to open up to
28:30
partnerships.
28:31
Let's go down this. So you
28:33
work doing this work we, uh, talked about before
28:36
we started recording. It sounds like you come from a
28:39
nondenominational background.
28:40
Right.
28:41
So I come primarily from mainline protestant
28:44
world, very denominational. These kind of
28:46
denominations can be very siloed. If you've seen
28:49
that. I don't know if you've seen that. So maybe
28:52
what are some examples you've seen? And then
28:56
can you give some kind of like, gumption, maybe. I don't
28:58
know what needs to be said, but to
29:01
get outside kind of your bubble and encourage people to
29:04
say, hey, you might need to look beyond your own
29:08
circles.
29:09
No, that is interesting, because
29:13
being in this work, I am out all the time.
29:16
Right. I'm seeing who's doing
29:18
what, beautiful work everywhere. And I
29:21
recently went to a church, and this
29:23
pastor, uh, is considering kind
29:26
of social enterprise stuff and
29:30
kind, um, of a healthy, thriving church. And
29:33
I said, well, what are the needs of your community?
29:36
And he really couldn't answer
29:39
that. And so that was kind of interesting to
29:42
me. Um, but that's something that we can
29:45
help you with, because part of this, like Jeff Johnson,
29:47
our executive director, he had to do community
29:51
engagement. That's part of the requirement. And
29:54
city, um, council, actually, or maybe it was
29:57
planning board, I can't remember, just gave him
30:00
kudos around his community
30:02
engagement, his planning, how he
30:05
was getting the input from neighbors. And
30:07
so we help churches with that as well.
30:10
Yeah, I guess that goes back to, again,
30:13
the importance of really
30:17
laying the groundwork in prayer and discernment
30:20
and leadership, because it's not just going to be like
30:22
the pastor or a couple of people being like,
30:25
oh, we should go after. Let's talk to a
30:28
developer and tomorrow.
30:30
Right, right. For sure. You need a team around you.
30:33
You need, um,
30:36
a little bit of capacity in terms of time
30:39
and energy that you're going to put into this
30:42
because it takes some thought. We help you. Um, we
30:45
help guide you, but you're going to have to make time for meetings
30:47
with us and to go through your options and,
30:50
um, talk about some of those
30:53
technical.
30:54
Let's talk about time then. What should
30:57
a church think about?
30:59
Yeah. So I'll give you
31:03
the actual building here. Took about
31:06
a year to build.
31:07
Right.
31:08
But to get permits and everything else, I think we're looking
31:11
more at two to three years.
31:13
Um, but then you add on this
31:16
discernment piece, we've seen
31:19
five to six years.
31:20
Right. Um, frankly, I think that's pretty quick. Right?
31:24
Yeah. And we've seen even longer. So it just
31:26
depends on. And we're never about rushing the church
31:29
or putting any kind of pressure on the church,
31:32
um, because we want God to lead them. But,
31:36
yeah, a lot of that time is the
31:39
discernment piece and getting everyone
31:42
on board.
31:43
Because even if we go back to heart of the Rockies. Right.
31:49
Um, they first got interested, I think if I'm
31:51
remembering back in like five.
31:54
Six, maybe 2018,
31:57
I think, because I actually went up there when I
32:00
was part of the Congregation, um,
32:03
land campaign.
32:04
So this current iteration, maybe.
32:06
Yeah.
32:10
But they could have been talking about it even before then.
32:12
Right.
32:13
And then they're breaking ground now.
32:14
I think they had a different idea about M. That's a good
32:17
point about a good framework for listeners. Like, think
32:20
about 2018, 2019. So here what,
32:23
mhm, February 2024, as we're recording this,
32:27
six ish years in what it'll probably
32:30
be another year before it's done. So it seems like seven
32:33
years is a good kind of
32:37
mental concept. Mental framework, I think, to think about. Right.
32:40
Is that fair?
32:40
Yeah.
32:41
So I, uh, can imagine. And this is one of the things I talked to mark
32:44
about. There may come a point where
32:47
a church, they've got like ten people left. It may be
32:50
like, thank you for
32:53
your. Have you
32:55
encountered such a situation where you go into a church and there's like
32:58
1015 people, and it's
33:01
obvious to you they're not going to have the
33:04
resources to do it themselves?
33:07
What do you think is the best, most
33:10
faithful attack
33:13
for them.
33:14
I have seen that. And because I don't want to put
33:16
pressure.
33:22
Yeah. I think the one that I'm thinking of, they're just going to
33:24
end up selling to the market. We might write an
33:27
RFP to see if requests, uh, for
33:30
proposals to see if any affordable
33:33
housing developers might be willing to partner with
33:36
them. Um, but I
33:38
think, like we said before, if we wait, it
33:41
puts us, um, in a precarious
33:44
spot that maybe we don't
33:47
make the best.
33:50
I mean, I imagine, like me,
33:54
it seems like in the Denver metro, any housing going up
33:56
is probably a good thing. Net
33:59
good. Right. But if you're really passionate about
34:02
providing affordable housing.
34:05
Yeah, I think we do need to build. For sure.
34:08
We need to build across the spectrum.
34:11
We need way more lower.
34:13
Ami need any more, like multimillion dollar?
34:17
But there's also the policy piece around it,
34:20
um, that I think is
34:22
interesting. And Phil, uh, burns from out
34:25
in California talked about SB four out there
34:28
that, uh, they did a religious
34:30
overlay for churches that are going to build
34:33
affordable housing so that they don't have to go through the rezoning
34:36
process, which will save thousands of dollars and months
34:39
of time. And so if we could get something like
34:42
that, that would help. Right.
34:44
Um, but I do think we
34:47
need to. Yes, housing in general,
34:50
but especially for, um,
34:53
I would even say zero to
34:55
120% ami, because what I'm seeing is
34:58
I'm going into these churches. The
35:01
pastors have this land, and then at the end, they kind
35:04
of come to me and say, hey, do you think I
35:07
don't own a home? But they're like, at
35:10
81% ami. And so they can't get
35:13
into the affordable housing market, and they can't
35:15
buy market rates. So I think
35:18
now we have the middle income housing
35:21
authority. I'm, um, wondering about that. I'm
35:23
wondering how, um, there might be a land
35:26
trust that, um, from
35:29
80% to 100% ami. So
35:32
I think it's all about creativity and getting the
35:35
right minds in,
35:38
um, the room and
35:40
just trying it. Let's see. Would this work?
35:43
I'm glad you brought up the policy side, because I can
35:46
imagine a scenario where a church might,
35:50
let's say they got a tiny chunk of land, they got
35:53
a building. They can't really do anything.
35:56
There's no land, real assets to do anything with. But they may want
35:59
to advocate for. Uh, so,
36:02
obviously, we're within
36:05
Colorado, and that's probably what you're most familiar with. You
36:07
mentioned California, though, for. But so what are some examples
36:10
maybe that are happening locally, nationally
36:13
that churches, uh, could advocate for.
36:15
Yeah, I would really look into the Sb four. We talk a little
36:18
bit about that on the webinar. Um, in the
36:21
resources that I sent out for the webinar, I just
36:24
have a ton of links about that. Um, there's
36:27
this whole conversation happening at the state level
36:30
around zoning, uh, and I
36:33
think getting involved in that.
36:36
I do have churches that,
36:38
um, and I haven't been able to focus too
36:41
much on that, that they're like, we don't have land, but we care
36:44
about housing.
36:45
Right.
36:45
So we're going to have an event on March
36:48
6, going to be a, ah, learning lunch, and we're going to talk a little
36:51
bit about some housing policy stuff that's happening
36:54
here. Um, and we're also going to talk to some faith
36:56
centered developers. And,
36:59
um, we're going to tour this beautiful building.
37:01
So look out for that.
37:04
So now I'm, like, pressured. Is this
37:07
going to release by March 6? Okay, if you're
37:10
listening to this.
37:10
Oh, yeah, march 6.
37:12
Check this out. Where can they find out more about.
37:14
That if it's not,
37:17
um, what we got? Oh, mile high
37:19
ministries.
37:20
It's February 7, so hopefully I'll get this
37:23
turned.
37:23
I'm sorry. I just put pressure on you.
37:25
The pressure editor, though.
37:27
Oh, sorry, editor?
37:28
Yeah.
37:29
Um, go to mile high ministries, or
37:32
you can email me. You have all my social
37:34
media links and my email, but, um, my email
37:37
is Jessica Dominguez at mileheimin m
37:40
I n.org and
37:43
Dominguez with a z.
37:44
Okay. Um, let me ask you this question before
37:47
we take a break, and this is a question I asked mark.
37:51
You know, what is
37:54
your nightmare scenario?
37:56
Oh, my gosh.
38:02
When I'm in a not great mental framework,
38:05
can you just think ten years ahead and
38:08
see? I don't want there to be another
38:11
m marijuana church for listeners.
38:14
There literally exists a marijuana church, and no
38:17
judgment there. But I'd rather see better usage
38:20
of church space. I, frankly want there to
38:22
be churches still existing.
38:25
Um, I also watch
38:27
youtubers who may not be
38:30
religious themselves, and they lament
38:33
historic churches getting torn down. So
38:37
what do you see as, like, a worst case scenario? What's
38:40
your kind of dream and prayer scenario?
38:44
Uh, I think my worst case
38:47
scenario goes back to teaching, because I taught
38:50
for 23 years. I still teach part time.
38:53
Um, and I look at those little baby
38:56
faces out there, and
39:00
they don't know what's going on.
39:02
Um, but they're also
39:05
housing insecure. Um, we
39:07
have a lot of, um, migrant students,
39:10
newcomers, and I've seen
39:13
kids walking into tents,
39:15
and I
39:18
guess we're kind of at a nightmare situation.
39:21
I've never seen that in Colorado in.
39:25
So the
39:28
only thing that could really make this nightmare worse
39:31
is if God does not
39:33
intervene. And he has to intervene
39:36
through his church and through the
39:39
body. And, um,
39:43
I can't do it alone. I
39:45
need you. I need others that are feeling
39:48
called to this mission. And,
39:51
yeah, I think
39:55
to do other celebrations like this. Right. That
39:58
we had at Claire Brown. I wish you could have seen it. I mean,
40:01
this building was just filled. We wrote this beautiful
40:04
book, and we celebrated with
40:07
praise and worship. And I
40:09
cried. I just was like,
40:12
man, God, thank you.
40:15
It was very difficult. There were times, um, I
40:18
was actually on the board before I started working with mile high.
40:21
Um, there were times where Jeff would come to the
40:24
board and know, he would tell us, hey, this came
40:27
up, um, and it was a big problem,
40:30
and we'd have to wrap our brains around it.
40:32
And every adversity, we
40:35
overcame every adversity. And,
40:38
um, this isn't going to be easy
40:41
work, um, but we need to.
40:44
Let's go get it.
40:45
Yeah. I'm just thinking about
40:49
something. This past Sunday, I
40:51
was in church, and the pastor spoke about Ezekiel and the dry
40:55
bones. And I know that really
40:57
resonated with me, just kind of where I'm at right now in
41:00
my know. And I've been thinking about.
41:04
I think it's Henry now, and a quote about
41:07
hope. Christian hope is not like just some optimism about the
41:10
future. It's this hope of
41:13
what God has said, God will do, God will do.
41:16
And then we look at stories. That's, to me,
41:19
why scripture is so important, because we can
41:22
go back when we're feeling unhopeful.
41:24
Yes.
41:24
And go back and see there's a
41:27
story of God doing what?
41:29
Preach it, Loren and testimony.
41:32
Yeah.
41:33
I was recently talking to, um, a dear
41:35
friend, Scott. And we
41:38
talk, know how just overwhelming. We hear these stories
41:41
of brokenness, and he said, jessica, you have
41:44
to have hope as resistance,
41:47
because if you have no hope, oh, my
41:50
gosh, where do you go from there? It's so
41:53
tied into faith.
41:54
Right.
41:55
And we need those. That's another thing
41:58
that I miss, um, that I don't really see so much
42:01
in churches anymore. Giving testimony
42:04
and the power of testimony and the
42:06
power.
42:08
We're having a little revival right here in the Bible.
42:10
Come on. I mean, that story about Jeff going around
42:13
this building for 20 years, that's a testimony.
42:17
That's, uh, a testimony to God's faithfulness.
42:19
And to the endurance that he gives
42:22
us as saints. And that can only
42:25
be the work of the Holy Spirit.
42:27
Yeah, we're getting totally off.
42:29
Sorry.
42:30
This is fine. No, this is fine. This is what I
42:33
love doing. But I'm thinking, like, I grew up
42:36
independent Baptist and independent
42:38
Baptist, we're very straight.
42:42
We're like lander than these white walls.
42:45
Right. But that was a thing that would happen
42:48
occasionally where there'd be like a song and
42:50
testimony night.
42:51
Yeah.
42:52
Um, and I imagine it was probably
42:55
less rigid. Right. In your context, there'd be some
42:58
testimony.
42:59
Yeah, testimony. The pastor would stand up there and
43:01
say, does anybody have a testimony? And they go up
43:04
and it was really moving.
43:08
Yeah. Folks, uh,
43:11
go back and watch this webinar, because in some
43:13
ways it's testimony. It
43:16
is to what people, the
43:19
ways people have responded to God's leading
43:22
in their church life, in their neighborhood
43:25
and what God has done.
43:27
Yes, for sure. And stay tuned. More
43:30
coming. Yeah, we have four learning lunches a
43:33
year. Um, we're going to start a discovery
43:36
cohort, which will be eight to ten churches
43:38
that kind of want to build their capacity around
43:41
learning affordable housing development.
43:44
And we're going to be taking some field trips to
43:47
different churches.
43:49
Um, that's great.
43:52
Well, let's move on to
43:55
our closing questions here. I usually do it a break, but I'm scared
43:58
to break anything because, please,
44:01
I'm okay.
44:02
I don't need a break.
44:04
Okay. So closing questions, I always tell
44:07
folks, you can take these as seriously or not as you'd like
44:10
to, and again, interpret them to your context,
44:13
uh, however you see best. So if you're pope for a day.
44:16
Mhm.
44:17
What do you want to do with that day?
44:19
Okay, so I've heard a lot of people talking and
44:21
their answers are answering this question. They're so
44:24
noble.
44:25
Right.
44:25
I'm going to take it on a little bit of a weird. So
44:29
I think I heard it on your podcast about
44:32
Christianity today. Did a
44:35
section on our obsession with horror. Do you remember talking about
44:38
that? So that led me down the little rabbit
44:40
hole of listening to that podcast.
44:43
It's kind of freaky, wasn't it?
44:44
It was. Which led me to the
44:47
exorcist files and Father Martin, who
44:49
is, uh, so,
44:52
um, it's actually fascinating because he brings a
44:55
lot of science into it and mental health,
44:58
but he also talks about scripture and he's done this
45:01
for 40 years. So if I was pope for the
45:04
day, um, I might attend their annual
45:07
exorcism course.
45:08
Whoa.
45:09
I'm curious.
45:10
Okay.
45:12
And I've gained a new respect. I didn't grow up, ah,
45:15
catholic at all.
45:16
Um, and I just
45:19
really am intrigued by their
45:21
doctrine and appreciate
45:24
their.
45:25
Yeah, I'm going to have a catholic on
45:28
the show, and I need to work on that because this is a very
45:31
ecumenical podcast.
45:32
Maybe. Father Martin.
45:33
Yeah.
45:34
Um, what's my next question? Because we're so haphazard,
45:37
David, I don't even have my notes.
45:38
I'm sorry. Um, what?
45:41
Theological.
45:42
Yes. What's a theological figure you'd want to
45:45
meet or bring back to life?
45:46
Okay. So I think I'm going to change that a little
45:49
bit. I would love to go
45:51
back to the feeding of the 5000.
45:54
Okay.
45:55
Because I felt like when Jesus,
45:58
they came to Jesus, right, the disciples, and said, these people
46:00
are hungry. We should send them home.
46:03
Right.
46:03
M. And Jesus says, no, you feed them.
46:05
Yeah.
46:06
I felt like that was the moment when I talked
46:09
earlier in the podcast when God was telling me, what are you going
46:12
to do about affordable housing? And I feel like God
46:15
is asking us to enter
46:17
in and it seems so
46:20
vast and so big that we're like,
46:23
uh, I don't think we can do this. Let's just
46:25
send everybody home. But God
46:28
is saying, well, what do you.
46:29
Someone else's problem.
46:30
Somebody else's problem. And the question we
46:33
should be asking is, like, what do we have?
46:36
And, um, that
46:38
collectively we bring our resources
46:41
together, and collectively we bring that knowledge together.
46:45
And collectively we work with government
46:47
and other nonprofits and
46:51
we're able to create something beautiful
46:54
and have abundance.
46:55
Yeah. Want to share
46:58
so much about that story, but let's keep going.
47:01
Um, what's my next
47:03
question?
47:05
Um, I don't know. I feel like we've kind of
47:08
answered,
47:09
um.
47:11
Well, let's say this. What do you hope for the future
47:14
of Christianity?
47:15
Yeah, I would hope that we would
47:18
just take this moment of time, this
47:20
crisis, and somehow turn it around,
47:23
right. Into something
47:26
praiseworthy and into something
47:28
good for people and good for the
47:31
community, that when people look back
47:34
at this time in history, we've done
47:37
something like when we built
47:40
hospitals or built schools,
47:43
um, we don't run
47:46
from the cris. Yeah.
47:49
Let's look at an example, because certainly we could think back like,
47:51
there's so many hospitals
47:54
across the United States came from the religious
47:57
tradition scriptural in there, right? Yeah.
48:00
Well, share how people can. You've kind of
48:03
already done it, but share again how people can connect with
48:05
you and learn more about mile high ministries.
48:08
Sure. They can go to abundantground.com. They can
48:11
email me at jessica
48:12
dominguez@malheimin.org
48:18
they can look, um, for the links at the bottom
48:21
of this podcast. And yeah, I'm happy just to
48:24
have a real informal chat with you
48:26
and let you learn more.
48:29
Great. Well, thanks so much for hanging with
48:32
me. This has been an adventure this afternoon,
48:34
but we got it.
48:37
Thank you. I appreciate it.
48:38
Yeah, always leave folks with Lord peace. So we're going to do peace
48:41
pass.
48:41
The peace in person.
48:42
May God peace be with you.
48:43
And also with you.
48:46
Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.
48:49
To learn more about Loren or the podcast,
48:51
visit future
48:53
christian.com. One more thing before
48:56
you go, do us a favor and subscribe to the
48:59
podcast. And if you're feeling especially
49:02
generous, leave a review. It really helps
49:04
us get the word out to more people about the podcast.
49:09
The Future Christian podcast is production of torn
49:12
curtain arts and resonate media. Our
49:14
episodes were mixed by Danny Burton and the production
49:17
support is provided by Paul Romiglovitt.
49:20
Thanks and go in peace.