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The Exit Interview Happened in the Parking Lot · The Healthy Church Staff Podcast

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: They turned in their resignation letter, and you told them, hey, we're really gonna move it.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Hugged them in the hallway, you didn't even announce it from the stage, you gave them a gift card, and they got a big round of applause.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: But here's the problem.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: You never asked them money.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Not really.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you had them fill out a 10-minute form, maybe you said, hey, any feedback for us?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then sat through three awkward seconds of silence.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the thing the parking lot already knows why they left.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: The friends already know why they left.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: The next church already knows why they're leaving, but you don't.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna talk about that today here on the Healthy Church Staff Podcast.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Happens all the time in churches, so if this has happened to you, no shame here.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's just you and me talking, having a ministry conversation.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're listening to the Healthy Church Staff Podcast.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: My name's Todd Rhodes, one of the co-founders over at chemistrystaffing.com.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: All right, so picture how this usually goes, how it goes.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: The resignation letters in.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: Their last Sunday is on the calendar.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know when that is.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: You sit down for an exit chat and you ask, Did you feel supported here?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And they say, uh, mostly.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you ask, is there anything we could improve?
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: And they say, you're not really.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's just time for a new season.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: You initial the form, and honestly, you're a little relieved it was so civil.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: But that really honestly wasn't an accident interview.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: That was a goodbye conversation that you had when they're filling out the paperwork.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: The real conversation already happened.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: It just happened somewhere else, and you weren't privy to what they actually said.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: So where did the truth actually go?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: It went to the parking lot after the last service.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: It went to the coffee with a friend from another church.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: That conversation went into a long text thread with three people who used to work for you.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe it came out in their interview with the next church when somebody finally asked them the real question about why they're leaving.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: And they told the whole story, the expectations that weren't clear, the leader who never gave feedback until it was too late, and that might have been you, by the way.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: The board that smiled and stalled and never did what they said they were going to do, the job that kept getting bigger and bigger while the support stayed the same, so did the salary.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: You never heard any of it because you were never in the room.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: You never made room for those conversations.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: And here's what that costs you, okay?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's very costly.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: You lose the pattern.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Was this one person?
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or is this the third person who's left for the same reason?
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: You lose the early warning and the thing that's still wearing down the people who stayed, right?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's really important to know.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: And your congregation gets a really nice announcement instead of a leadership team that actually learned anything at all from this whole situation.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Kindness without cure curiosity isn't care.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's just smiling through, protecting yourself.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Now, exits are awkward.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: They're always awkward.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Even in the best scenarios, exits are awkward.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: You didn't want to push while they were still raw, so you were worried maybe a conversation, a hard conversation, would sour the goodbye, and maybe you hoped a clean exit would protect the church.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: I get all that, and all those are legit, okay?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem isn't that you wanted peace.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: The problem usually is skipping the one conversation that could tell you what to fix for the people who are still on your team.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Peace that never asks why is just silence.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: And you give them a gift card on the way out and say, have a life, have a nice life, have a nice ministry.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, Todd, you're giving me a whole bunch of things I'm doing wrong.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me what I can do right.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Here's what I think is what a real exit interview or a real exit conversation should look like.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: A few pieces here.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, have the right person do it.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: If the relationship with the boss who hired them is the wound, then that boss probably shouldn't be the one asking the questions, okay?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: And you probably already know that.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: If they have a big problem with you, you're probably not the one to do the exit.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Pick somebody that they trust, somebody who's curious, somebody who can hear the hard things without getting defensive about you or the church.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then ask three really hard questions, okay?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them are easier than others.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, what made this job harder than it needed to be?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: What made this job harder than it needed to be?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: Number two, what did leadership miss until it was too late?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: And number three, what should we change so the next person doesn't leave carrying the same story that you're telling?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then write those answers down.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: Document those answers.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: If somebody on your team is leaving soon, don't wait for the parking lot version, okay?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: Get that conversation on the calendar this week.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: And if the last person already left and you never asked them, would it be too much to give them a call?
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Not to win them back, just to learn if the relationship allows that.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Say something like, hey, I should have asked you this sooner.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: What did I need to hear so that I or we or our church doesn't keep repeating what happened to you?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then be quiet and listen.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so here's the bottom line.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: If the real story of why they left only got told to people in the parking lot, you didn't just lose a staff member, you lost the truth that your church still needs.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: So here's my challenge this week for you.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty simple.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Take the last person who left.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's simple, but it's hard.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Take the last person who left or the next person who's getting ready to leave, and set up a real exit conversation with somebody who will get to the truth.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: That person doesn't have to be you.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's an elder, maybe it's a board member, maybe it's another staff member.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_00: But write down three things that you heard and bring those three things into the room where decisions actually get made.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And someone has already told the truth about your staff culture.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: They just they're just not telling you.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: We hear the stories all the time because we're talking to people in transition, and everybody has a transition story.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: And most of them, there's a certain number that just say, I just feel like God's telling me to move on.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of times it's I'm moving on because, and it's the because that you need to know.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you know a leader who thinks that a gift card and a stage announcement just close the loop and everything's good, share this episode with them because it's really important.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then go ask why before the parking lot is the only place that knows the reason that people are leaving your church.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot to live and learn here, and so many churches don't do the follow-up conversation.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: They're just wanting to get through the transition.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Getting through the transition is important, but learning what you can and making things better for the future is also very important.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: I hope this has been helpful for you today.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: My name's Todd.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm one of the co-founders of Chemistry Staff, and you're listening to the Healthy Church Staff Live.