Latest / Martyr's Row / Ep. 60 - Who Tormented King Saul?

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Ep. 60 - Who Tormented King Saul? · Martyr's Row

0:00
This week on Martyrs Row, was King David an exorcist?
0:03
Is God the source of evil in the world? Did a
0:06
giant Nephilim violinist build the pyramids with
0:09
his music? Did Nineveh think that Jonah was a
0:13
Mesopotamian fish god? Fish man Jonah? Bloop,
0:16
bloop, bloop. I don't know! This week on Martyrs
0:19
Row, 3, 2, 1! Saint Pelagia, a maiden from Tarsus
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of noble birth, having heard the gospel of Christ,
0:42
turned from the vanities of the world and dedicated
0:46
herself unto her heavenly bridegroom. When a
0:51
prince sought her hand in marriage, she refused
0:53
him, declaring that she had already given herself
0:57
unto Christ. Thereafter, she sought out a holy
1:02
bishop by whom she was instructed and baptized,
1:06
and returning home, cast aside her costly garments
1:09
and distributed her riches among the poor. When
1:14
her refusal and confession of faith were made
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known, she was brought before the emperor and
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urged with promises and threatenings to forsake
1:23
her lord. But Pelagia remained steadfast, choosing
1:27
rather the crown of martyrdom than the honors
1:30
of this world. Whereupon she was condemned to
1:34
the fire, and according to the ancient tradition,
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enclosed within a brazen bowl and consumed by
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the flames. Thus this blessed virgin, forsaking
1:45
earthly riches and refusing an earthly bridegroom,
1:49
gave both her youth and her life unto Christ,
1:53
and exchanged the passing of glory of this world
1:56
for an imperishable crown. Anno Domini Imagine
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you are standing outside the gates of one of
2:10
the most terrifying cities on earth. This is
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Assyria, a civilization of iron weapons, conquered
2:18
nations, severed heads, and kings who carved
2:22
their victories into stone so no one would ever
2:26
forget what happened to those who resisted them.
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And at the center of that empire stood Nineveh.
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But the Assyrians feared more than armies. Their
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world was crowded with gods, spirits, omens,
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and supernatural beings. Their kings consulted...
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diviners their priests watched the heavens strange
2:49
protective figures were buried beneath palace
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floors and among the images known throughout
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mesopotamia was one particular unsettling figure
3:00
a man wrapped in the body of a fish the assyrians
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knew these beings as the apkalu ancient sages
3:12
associated with Lord of the deep waters and divine
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wisdom. Archaeologists have actually uncovered
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images of them. Human legs, human arms, but draped
3:26
over the man's head and down his back, the body
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of a great fish. And one of these fish -cloaked
3:34
figures was discovered beneath the ruins of Nineveh
3:38
itself. To the people living in this world, the
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image wasn't ridiculous. It was sacred. Because
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according to ancient Mesopotamian tradition,
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beings associated with the waters had once brought
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divine knowledge to mankind. So now imagine something.
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Sometime during the 8th century before Christ,
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rumors begin traveling toward Assyria. There
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is a man coming, a foreigner. A messenger carrying
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a warning from a God they do not worship. But
4:14
this messenger has a story. He has gone down
4:17
into the sea. He has disappeared beneath the
4:21
water. He should have died there. Instead, a
4:25
great fish swallowed him. For three days he vanished
4:29
from the world of the living. And then the fish
4:31
gave him back. Now imagine hearing that story
4:34
through Assyrian ears. A man associated with
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a great fish. Emerging alive, coming towards
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Nineveh, carrying a message from the divine?
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We cannot prove the Assyrians connected those
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dots, but archaeology proves something fascinating.
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Those dots existed. And suddenly, one of the
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strangest details in scripture is standing against
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a cultural backdrop almost perfectly designed
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to make an Assyrian pay attention. Because the
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man walking toward Nineveh wasn't... and Apkallu.
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He wasn't a servant of A. He wasn't bringing
5:12
the wisdom of the Mesopotamian gods. He was coming
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to tell the most powerful and violent empire
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on earth that their gods could not save them
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and that judgment was coming from Yahweh. His
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name was Jonah and Nineveh was about to listen.
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So Jonah doesn't show up to a group of people
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who've never seen a man come out of a fish before.
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Yeah, I absolutely love that story. Yeah. I've
5:45
heard that before, and it's kind of amazing because
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it shows... Well, it's funny because looking
5:53
at it through our modern lens, we just see like,
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oh, cool, so Jonah's a little troublemaker. Yeah.
5:59
And then he went and these people were receptive.
6:02
Right. But whenever I was like, why were they
6:04
receptive? Yeah. Because at least in the New
6:07
Testament, a lot of people got killed because
6:09
they said these things. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And
6:12
here's the thing is like, yes, right. We never
6:16
go, what were the Assyrians thinking? Yes. What
6:19
were the Ninevites thinking? It wasn't just like
6:22
this guy walked into town and was like, hey guys,
6:24
turn and repent. And he probably did it like
6:26
that because he was probably like, I don't want
6:28
to be here. Yeah. I don't want to be here. I
6:31
have to be here because a fish spit me out. Yeah.
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They go, wait a minute. What happened? A fish
6:38
spit you out. So you were resurrected from the
6:42
dead and you came out of a fish from the deep
6:45
waters and you're bringing knowledge to us that
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if we don't turn and repent, then we will be
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destroyed. We've heard this before. Let's listen
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to this guy. Well, actually, that's a good point
6:57
that I don't know if I've ever thought of necessarily
7:00
before, but Jonah probably wasn't giving a very
7:03
charismatic, impassioned speech to these people.
7:06
No. Because he wanted them to die. Yes. And so
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I've never actually thought about that, which
7:12
adds another level to it. Yeah. Because if he
7:15
walks in, he's like, hey, guys, you're going
7:17
to die if you don't repent. He's probably just
7:20
like. I mean, repent or don't, I don't really
7:22
care. When it's a little bit. But it's like,
7:24
so it's like, it wasn't like he was a great orator
7:27
who delivered this beautiful message to people
7:29
that he hated. Yeah. It's like, no, he was probably
7:31
doing the bare minimum, but because of his story,
7:35
it resonated with them. It was like, he could
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have said anything. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And here's
7:41
the thing. So, okay. So he sets off from Jaffa.
7:46
Yeah. Right. Which is like modern day Tel Aviv.
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So you're like right in the middle of Israel,
7:51
basically. And he sets off in the opposite direction.
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He goes south instead of north. Yeah. And because
7:58
he goes south instead of north, he's going in
8:01
the exact opposite direction of Nineveh. Yes.
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Right. And then he gets swallowed after he gets
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thrown off of the ship. And then after he gets
8:10
thrown off the ship, remember that the people
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on the ship, they stayed on the ship. Yeah. They
8:15
kept sailing. So he gets thrown off the ship
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and then it spits him out onto dry land. Yeah.
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It doesn't spit him out in Nineveh though. So
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he still has to, once on dry land, he still has
8:28
to travel to Nineveh. Yeah. So he has to do the
8:32
work of getting there. Now it would be, that's
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where like, I think people maybe, people that
8:39
have maybe preached this side of it or talked
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about this side of it. don't quite mention that.
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It's not like he gets thrown out on the shore
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of Nineveh and they go, whoa, fish man. You know
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what I mean? It was probably in the middle of
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nowhere. Well, yeah. So it was just dry land
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and then he had to continue to travel up. But
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yeah. But however, there is opportunity along
9:03
the way for the story to travel. Yes. Basically,
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historically, what we see is that in Nineveh,
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the idea of the man that comes from the fish
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or the God who has a fish cloaked over them,
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this idea is prevalent. So it could be that what
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Jonah goes in and says, because we don't have
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his message, you know what I mean? He just says,
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turn and repent. He could have walked in and
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this is like, I feel like maybe we have talked
9:39
about this, but we did talk about this briefly
9:42
because we talked about the idea that potentially
9:45
Jonah actually dies. Right. And comes back to
9:48
life. Like he may have, you have that imagery.
9:51
Yeah, you do. Like he goes to the depths of shale.
9:53
Right. Yeah. So you're like, you know, that's
9:56
the whole, like, did Jonah have a near death
9:58
experience? Yes. So like, that's that, that's
10:01
that published works. Yeah. That's that idea.
10:05
But, But when Jonah comes in, what does he do
10:08
in Nineveh? Like when he says, repent, he's probably
10:13
telling his testimony. He's telling the story
10:16
of God. But he's probably doing it in a lackadaisical
10:21
way where he comes in and goes, all right, guys,
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listen, I don't want to be here. You guys are
10:27
terrible people. You don't deserve the grace
10:30
that I'm about to tell you. But I tried to go
10:34
the other direction. And when I went the other
10:36
direction, God created chaos. And I was thrown
10:42
into the water and I was swallowed by a fish.
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And I've been in the fish for three days and
10:48
three nights. I got spit on on dry land, came
10:51
back to life. And I traveled here to tell you
10:54
that you need to repent and serve the God. who
10:57
works through the waters, who made the fish in
11:00
the sea. And I'm telling you, you need to repent.
11:03
Now, do I want you to be saved? No. But I have
11:08
to come tell you that because God's just spit
11:11
me out of a fish. And they go, wait, we've heard
11:14
of a guy coming with great knowledge who comes
11:18
from a fish. You know what I mean? It's all there.
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So it's not like... Like that, that's a, that
11:27
is a thing is like, we do read the Bible one
11:29
sided way too much. Yes. Where we just go like,
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um, yeah, he just walked in and he was like,
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repent. And all of their hearts were immediately
11:38
softened and they repent. And it's like that,
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that's part of it kind of, but like there had
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to be a, like the rest of the scripture. It's
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not always how people work. No, but also the
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rest of scriptures is so heavy on your testimony.
11:52
Yes. So it's like tell the story of what God
11:55
did. Yeah. And that's what God did to Jonah.
11:58
You know, it's cool because it reminds me of
12:01
the phrase in Genesis with Joseph. Okay. Where
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at the end he says, well, what you intended for
12:11
evil, God intended for good. And it's that same
12:13
thing. It's like Jonah did not intend to have
12:15
the best testimony for those people. But because
12:19
of what his intentions were, God used that. Right.
12:23
To deliver Nineveh. Well, and Nineveh was by
12:28
all means a horrible place. Absolutely. Full
12:31
of like. Bloodthirsty people. Yes. So it makes
12:36
sense. Jonah's like, don't save them. They deserve
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to be destroyed. They've destroyed everything
12:42
around them. They deserve to be destroyed. So
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yeah, it's kind of interesting. But then it's
12:47
the heart of God to be like, well, let me give
12:48
them one more chance. Exactly. Yeah. So was Jonah
12:52
the lost fish man that came out of the ocean?
12:56
Fish man Jonah? To give knowledge to the people
12:59
of Nineveh? Wait, was Jonah an Apkallu? Three,
13:02
two, one. Our candles keep what we can't keep
13:35
We trace the hair that disappeared And listen
13:45
for the dead to hear We follow where the lost
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have gone Through empty rooms and fading tall
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The smallest piece in the belly of the bee So
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pull your chair up to the row Where all the vanished
14:22
voices go We speak their names into the night
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And wait to see what answers back Still looking
14:54
for the smallest piece in the belly of the bee.
15:07
So, Stephen. Yes? I've been reading recently.
15:15
Good for you. Thank you. Congrats. And specifically,
15:18
it's like this big book. Okay. But it's actually
15:23
like one book, but it has like a lot of books
15:24
in it. Okay. I've heard of those. Yeah. Like
15:27
chapter books? Kind of, but they're all like
15:29
individual books. Like a library? In this big
15:31
book. Okay. Yeah. It's called The Bible. Oh,
15:34
okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A compilation, you could
15:36
say. Yeah, you could. From many different artists?
15:40
From many different writers. Authors? Authors.
15:44
Through the centuries. Yes. Okay. So you've been
15:47
reading your Bible. I have, which is, I think
15:50
it's a good thing. Yeah, that's an interesting
15:51
way to get to that. Well, I came across this
15:56
passage in 1 Samuel. 1 Samuel, I know it. You
16:00
know, good old King Saul. Yep. I don't know if
16:03
good's the right word to use there. Fair, yeah.
16:06
He was a king. Fair, yeah. And there's this part
16:10
in chapter 16, and I'll read it here. Of 1 Samuel.
16:14
Of 1 Samuel. Okay. That I've always just kind
16:18
of read through and been like, oh, okay, cool.
16:20
Yeah, as most of us do through most of the Old
16:22
Testament. Yes. Which we've talked about quite
16:25
a bit. Yes. It's kind of the whole podcast. Most
16:28
of it, yeah. Mostly Old Testament guys here.
16:31
Yeah. So this one, this time it really jumped
16:34
out at me. Okay. And I was like. Wait, how have
16:37
I never looked into this or heard someone bring
16:41
this up? It seems like we just kind of throw
16:43
it away. It's like, yeah, so that happened. Anyway,
16:46
look at David. Yeah, it's most of our podcast.
16:50
Yes. So I'll read it here. It's 1 Samuel 16,
16:55
verses 14 through 16. Okay. And this is an ESV
16:59
if anyone cares. Okay. I care. Because originally
17:02
when I copied this down, it was King James. And
17:04
I was like, don't do that again. Yeah, fair.
17:07
Yeah. I've been caught in that before. KJV. That's
17:12
my dog. That's my dog. That's all I'm going to
17:15
say. My dog. All right. So it says, now the spirit
17:19
of the Lord departed from Saul and a harmful
17:22
spirit from the Lord tormented him. Yeah, yeah.
17:45
It's super weird. It is weird. I was reading
17:48
that and I was like, wait, hold on, pause it.
17:50
What's going on here? Yeah, there's a lot of
17:52
pieces to it. Yeah. And so I guess my question
17:55
as I was looking at this is like, who is tormenting
17:59
Saul? Right. Or what is tormenting Saul? Who
18:02
or what? Yeah. Why and when? Why, when, who,
18:06
how? How. That's the other one. That's the non
18:10
-W. Yeah. Because, I mean, there's a lot of interesting
18:15
details in here that we can look at. Yeah. So
18:18
there's a spirit from God that is tormenting.
18:23
Well, the first part is the Spirit of God was
18:25
departed from Saul. That's kind of the beginning.
18:28
So it's like, all right, so he has the Holy Spirit,
18:31
and the Holy Spirit's like, I'm out. Yes. And
18:34
then a harmful spirit then comes upon him, which
18:37
the Scripture says it's from the Lord. Yes. And
18:41
then his servants are like, all right, we're
18:45
going to get someone who's really good at playing
18:46
the liar, and then they're going to make you
18:48
feel better. Yeah. Like music is the medicine.
18:52
Yeah. But also it is interesting that the spirit
18:56
of God has to leave Saul for a tormenting spirit
19:01
to come upon him. Right. Also, there's no language
19:04
of within. Yeah. Which is also interesting. That
19:08
is interesting. But so the spirit of God was
19:10
upon him. Yes. Removed itself from him like a
19:14
cloak. Yeah. And then another spirit comes upon
19:17
him. And that's a tormenting one. So what that
19:20
tells us is it creates consistency through the
19:23
Bible where the spirit of God is not present
19:27
upon someone at the same time that a tormenting
19:32
spirit is present also upon them. Right. But
19:35
we do see places where there are multiple spirits
19:39
within a person. Yes. But all of the same tormenting
19:44
or demonic nature. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting.
19:48
Which is kind of interesting because it adds
19:50
this protective level to it. Sure. Where we see
19:53
it's like when the Holy Spirit is upon someone,
19:56
there's a level of protection that's given to
19:58
them. Right, yeah. I mean, that's just kind of
20:01
what we can infer from reading just this singular
20:04
verse, I feel like. Yeah, but then also it doesn't
20:07
name the tormenting spirit. Right. Which I was
20:10
also curious about. Except that it does because
20:12
it calls it a tormenting spirit. Yeah, true.
20:15
So it's not just saying, and then a spirit came
20:18
upon him. Right. It's actually specific. Yeah.
20:21
Yeah, so what does that mean? Yeah, that's a
20:26
great question. And so what I want to do first
20:29
is look at all the times that this is referenced.
20:34
Okay. In scripture? Yeah. Which is, it's mostly
20:38
in 1 Samuel in this collection of chapters. Of
20:40
the tormenting spirit. The tormenting spirit,
20:43
yes. So it's a reoccurring character. Yeah, it
20:46
kind of - Or a reoccurring occupation. It's his
20:51
job. But it could be multiple spirits that are
20:55
tormentors. It's true. And I think that's - Dementors?
20:58
An interesting level, which we'll get into later,
21:01
is like - It could have been a compounding thing.
21:04
Wait, are the Dementors in Harry Potter tormenting
21:09
spirits? I think so. Isn't that what they kind
21:13
of do, just torment? Yeah, but also Dementor
21:16
feels very close to tormenting. That's true.
21:20
Except you put a D on the front of it. A D in
21:22
it, and then it's different. Well, it's also
21:25
demonic. Oh, true. So the Dementors in Harry
21:32
Potter are demons. Well, and also maybe in the
21:36
Bible. Oh, true. The tormenting spirits might
21:39
also be demons. It's a Dementor with a T. Is
21:42
a tormenting spirit a demon? This is a question
21:45
you may not be prepared to answer. I mean, it's
21:47
a very complex question. It is. And there's other
21:50
scripture that I didn't write down for this,
21:53
but I was thinking of it as we were talking about
21:55
this, which we definitely could. Talk about it.
22:00
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think about it with, I
22:03
think it's in Kings. Okay. When God's talking
22:07
to his council and was like, all right, was it
22:11
Abimelech? Or they're like, what are we going
22:12
to do with this guy? That's not Abimelech. It's.
22:15
Oh, yeah. What's his name? Solomon's son. Yeah.
22:22
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, good
22:25
call. Yeah. I was like, I can see it in my head.
22:28
They're like, okay, he's on his way out, but
22:31
how are we going to do this? And God turns it
22:34
over to his council to be like, you guys come
22:35
up with an idea. Yeah. And one of the members
22:39
says, I'm going to be a deceptive spirit in the
22:44
ears of his prophets. Hmm. Which is weird. And
22:49
spreads deceit. Right. Which I was like, wait,
22:51
hold on. That's really weird. Yeah. But it's
22:53
interesting because it was like a project given
22:56
by God. Yeah. Yeah. That's weird. And then God's
22:59
like, OK, yeah, that's a good idea. So then it
23:01
brings in the question, does is God the is God
23:06
the source of evil in the world? Well, so that's
23:09
where, that's like kind of the next level to
23:11
this. And this is where English can be harmful
23:14
sometimes. No, all the time. All the time. I
23:18
was being gracious. English, the English language
23:20
is always harmful to the human. Yeah. It just
23:25
hurts me to speak. Yes. Because like the trans...
23:29
It's making us all dumber. Yes. The English language
23:32
is making us all dumber. Yeah. Sorry, kids. Why
23:37
use many words when a few words do? What we need
23:40
to do is start teaching all of our kids a different
23:42
language. Yeah. And never teach them English.
23:45
Just never. But we only speak English. In private.
23:49
Yeah. Away from the kids. When we go out into
23:52
the world. But in the house, Italian only. It's
23:55
just that. Mamma mia. Or it's like Icelandic.
23:59
Oh, that would be wild. Yeah. Or we just go back
24:02
to Latin. That could be fun, actually. Could
24:05
be. Probably wouldn't be. No. It'd be difficult.
24:09
Yeah. But I'd rather go to Greek. Latin is like
24:13
the English version of Greek. Yeah. Yeah, that's
24:15
true. That's true. So let's just go back to Aramaic.
24:21
Or Hebrew while we're at it. Just bring it all
24:22
the way back. Yeah. Well, not all the way back.
24:25
Yeah, no. Never mind. Yeah, as soon as what we're
24:30
speaking. Yeah. Well, like. What's the Sumerian
24:35
language? Ugaritic? Yeah. Yeah. That's the written
24:40
language. I don't know what their slang was.
24:41
I actually don't know what the spoken is. All
24:45
right, so is God the source of evil in the world?
24:47
But yeah, so what's interesting - That's a wild
24:49
question to ask. It is. And I mean, I think it's
24:52
a fair question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so in
24:55
this case, this is where our English translation
24:57
is doing us a disservice. Okay. Because - I don't
25:02
remember what the actual Hebrew word is there,
25:04
but it actually gives a connotation of chaos
25:07
and not lying. So basically what this spirit
25:12
that's sent from God's counsel is doing, not
25:17
an evil spirit, is he's actually just creating
25:21
chaos. So he's removing God's order. And so it's
25:26
spreading chaos, so no one knows, like, everyone's
25:28
confused. They don't know what's going on. Oh,
25:30
that's wild. Okay, so what you're saying is when
25:34
the Spirit of God is present, order is brought.
25:37
Yes. Or good is brought and present. Yes. And
25:40
then, did you need to be taller? Yeah. I was
25:43
like, I'm looking up at you too much. To be fair,
25:45
those who are watching, he is sitting on a lower
25:47
seat. A little bit shorter, but... I am a little
25:51
shorter than you. Yeah, not much. It's like a
25:55
foot and a half. We should do like a big dramatic.
25:57
I'm like standing up. I actually come down. You
26:00
can't see my head. But no, so like, okay, so
26:04
when the spirit of God is present, then chaos
26:07
is brought into order. Yes. When the spirit of
26:10
God leaves, then other, it doesn't just devolve,
26:16
but instead another spirit comes and creates
26:20
chaos. Yes. So it's almost not even an entropy
26:24
thing. It's like there has to be some type of
26:27
agent. Yeah. Which goes to like Newtonian law.
26:31
Right. Yeah. Which is kind of interesting. It's
26:33
fascinating. It's a little bit like there needs
26:36
to be a spirit of chaos there or a chaos spirit,
26:41
which is. Yeah. Like chaos spirit is something
26:45
that like we don't realize that the chaos spirit.
26:52
is something that we see throughout all cultures.
26:55
Yes. We even see it represented in like Hollywood
26:58
and stuff like that as far as like, I forget
27:02
what they call it, but isn't there, anyways,
27:05
there's like a word for that, the chaos spirit.
27:09
That's in a different language. Anyways, it's
27:12
making me think of that. But yeah, so the spirit
27:15
of God, the spirit of order through the spirit
27:18
of Yahweh. is keeping things organized and giving
27:22
wisdom in the right direction. And then when
27:25
that spirit, when the Holy Spirit leaves or the
27:28
Spirit of God leaves, then the tormenting spirit
27:31
or the spirit of chaos comes and makes things
27:35
out of order. Yes. Which is, yeah, that's interesting.
27:39
I mean, I feel like we can even... See it in
27:42
like very practical terms as far as like how
27:45
we behave as humans. Yeah. Because it's like,
27:47
well, we're supposed to be agents of order because
27:49
we're imaging God and what God does. Yes. And
27:52
God creates in orders. Right. It's like the like
27:56
an example is like someone's like someone's bed
27:59
or someone's room. OK. It's like, OK, if you're.
28:02
doing what you're supposed to do to take care
28:04
of your room, doing good, then it's going to
28:06
be ordered. Your bed's going to be made. Right.
28:08
Your stuff's going to be put away. But then if
28:11
you are leaving stuff out, leaving your bed unmade,
28:14
clothes on the floor, it's like, well, now you're
28:17
an agent of chaos. Yeah. It's like you're actually
28:19
removing order from a space that should be orderly.
28:23
Yeah. Maybe it's a Marvel thing. Or like agents
28:29
of chaos. I feel like it's like something. You
28:31
know what I mean? Yeah, I don't know what you're
28:33
thinking of. Or like the Chaos Stone, or I don't
28:35
know. There probably is a Chaos Stone. Oh, there
28:39
is. Yeah, true. The Sorcerer's Stone. Oh, true.
28:46
He hit that one. What did they call it in England?
28:48
Not the Sorcerer's Stone. It's something else,
28:51
right? The Philosopher's Stone? Philosopher's
28:53
Stone. Yeah, same time. Same time. Okay, yeah,
28:58
so. Where else is this? Yeah, so the next time
29:02
we see it, which isn't too far away. And the
29:05
tormenting spirit is what you're talking about.
29:06
Yes, yeah, correct, with Saul. Bob. Bob, that's
29:10
his name. Casper, the friendly tormenting spirit.
29:12
Well, he might have a name. He might have a name.
29:14
Yeah. We'll see. So this is 1 Samuel 16, 23.
29:20
And it says, and whenever the harmful spirit
29:23
from God was upon Saul, David took the lyre and
29:27
played it with his hand. So Saul was refreshed
29:30
and was well, and the harmful spirit departed
29:32
from him. So that's an interesting one where
29:36
we see like, oh, actually David playing music
29:39
actually caused the spirit to leave. I wonder
29:42
if I could Google search all sermons or devotionals
29:48
or. Anything ever done by humans using music
29:55
as a formula for removing disturbances? Oh, that
30:05
would be interesting. You know what I mean? Yeah.
30:06
How many people have said, if you feel like you're
30:13
not at rest, just worship God with music? If
30:19
there aren't, there should be. Oh, no, there's
30:22
hundreds of millions. Oh, okay, that's cool.
30:26
I've never personally heard one. Oh, really?
30:29
I don't think so. I feel like you could have
30:31
heard one from me before. That's actually very
30:34
possible. There's an element to that, but I also
30:40
feel like there's an element that is slightly
30:42
out of context of that concept. Meaning like...
30:48
It compresses the idea that you're talking about
30:51
right now into formula because that's what they're
30:55
doing. They're going, hey, there is now a tormenting
30:58
spirit. So go get the boy with the guitar and
31:02
have him come in and play. But the problem is,
31:05
it's not the lyre. It's also not even the music.
31:09
It's the one playing the music. Well, especially
31:12
at this point, this is when David has been anointed.
31:15
Correct. And the Spirit of God departed from
31:18
Saul and came upon David. Yes. And so it's interesting,
31:22
and we'll get into this a little bit more, but
31:25
it's actually two spirits at war with each other.
31:29
Yeah, and it's weird that they go, get the boy
31:31
with the liar. Yeah. Not 100 % sure if they realize,
31:37
hey, we know where the Spirit of God that was
31:41
upon you went to. So let's go get that kid. Yeah,
31:46
that one, I don't know if there's any evidence
31:49
for that. But what we, and we'll get into this
31:53
a bit as well down the road, but it's like music
31:56
as part of exorcism in those days was very normal.
32:01
For sure. Yeah. And I mean, it still is to this
32:03
day. Yeah, it was also used in the other direction.
32:06
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So that's, yeah. It's like
32:10
part of a music is. as part of a ritualistic
32:14
spiritual encounter, is common. Which is why
32:18
there's a lot of conversation around the manipulation
32:24
or use of frequencies. Yeah. Again, you've probably
32:30
heard many Louis Giglio -style sermons around
32:33
the Spirit of God hovering over the waters and
32:36
the sound of God's voice. is what moves creation
32:40
into order. And it's like frequency manipulation.
32:44
Yeah, which actually we even see that with, what
32:47
is that called? Where you can actually like visualize
32:51
the frequency. Oh, I don't know. I can't, there's
32:54
a word for that study. The only thing I can think
32:57
is synesthesia. Synesthesia? Which is, that's
33:02
such a fascinating thing. It's being able to
33:03
see colors. From music. Yeah, like when you hear
33:09
sound, you see colors associated with it. Which
33:11
is pretty cool. Well, but it makes perfect sense
33:13
frequency -wise because colors are frequencies.
33:17
Right. So they emit a frequency, and it's actually
33:21
the visible. A color from what you're seeing
33:25
with your eye is just a visible frequency. Yes,
33:29
yeah. Which is weird. That's why it's like high
33:32
frequencies. are lighter and brighter colors
33:35
low frequencies are darker colors yeah yeah so
33:40
then music is the same way yes like music gets
33:43
darker the longer the frequencies are the more
33:47
stretched out they are the lower they are yeah
33:49
and so everything gets darker the lower you go
33:52
yeah it's fast it's so cool how like all of that
33:57
ties together like it is frequency which is why
33:59
like you get so many different like in the new
34:02
age space you get a lot of overlap and use of
34:04
that yeah because even as we're talking about
34:06
that and this is a huge tangent but even as we're
34:09
talking about that i think about the the the
34:11
simple idea of um in the new heavens and the
34:15
new earth there will be no sun yeah there will
34:19
be no moon because it would be quite literally
34:21
the presence of god that will illuminate all
34:24
space yeah I mean, if you just keep raising the
34:30
frequency, eventually when you get to a certain
34:33
point on frequency, light and sound all come
34:38
together in one piece. So because light is frequency
34:44
and so is sound, then if Jesus is the high frequency
34:51
that illuminates, then that frequency is also
34:56
moving through every living thing, just like
35:00
sound waves do. So like you have this idea in
35:03
the new heavens and the new earth that the presence
35:06
of Jesus is high frequency lighting and within
35:11
all things. Yeah. Not as like you're one with
35:16
Jesus. Right. But the frequency of Jesus is penetrating
35:21
everything. Yes. All at once. Yeah. Because frequency
35:26
can do that. Yeah. So, like, scientifically,
35:29
we can go, like, that's possible. Yes. Which
35:33
is weird. It's super weird. But I think, like...
35:36
The boy with the liar. Well, I'll say this first.
35:40
As far as, like, frequency and the study of that
35:43
is a very ancient thing as well. For sure. Because
35:46
we've even seen that with Gobekli Tepe, where
35:50
they have... these weird depictions and stuff
35:53
on their pillars and walls down there. And someone
35:56
actually discovered as they were doing whatever
35:58
that study is called. Archaeology? No, as far
36:02
as like the simple way to do it. that people
36:06
would do at home. It's like you put a metal plate
36:08
on top of a speaker and play an individual frequency.
36:11
Oh. And the sand that you place on the plate
36:14
will actually shift into a pattern. Into patterns,
36:16
yeah. And it'll adjust based on what frequency
36:18
you're playing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this guy
36:20
found that the patterns that he saw at Gobekli
36:24
Tepe matched a specific frequency that he was
36:28
messing around with. Yeah, yeah. And that's pretty
36:30
wild. It is wild. Yeah, because they would have
36:32
seen that. I mean, they had an abundance of sand.
36:35
Yeah. So someone's like the whole desert just
36:39
like shifts. Yeah. Yeah. That's wild. So speaking
36:44
of that's where that like that's where that like
36:46
Turkey low like guttural like the Mongolian third
36:52
singing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Like
36:56
those like low frequency. Yeah. Practices and
36:59
singing and stuff like that. how that manipulates
37:02
things. Yeah, it's weird. There's a lot to talk
37:05
about with that. So the tormenting spirit, yeah,
37:08
that's kind of interesting. Because we're not
37:10
even saying, the Bible's not even saying it's
37:13
a bad spirit. Right. It's just a chaos spirit.
37:18
So it's quite literally doing its job. Right.
37:23
And it's one of those where it's like, and that's
37:25
where I think we could take it two different
37:27
directions. where it's like, is this an evil
37:32
spirit? I think there's a lot of evidence to
37:34
say that it actually is. Sure. And then it being
37:39
called from God is basically like, well, since
37:42
God removed himself from Saul, then he's now
37:48
vulnerable to attack from his own sin. Right.
37:53
And Saul had an abundance of that. Right. And
37:55
so it being from God is just, it happened because
37:58
of the result that God did. Yes, because of Saul's
38:01
actions, the spirit of God had to be removed
38:05
from an impure heart. And it's not even like
38:11
the heart was pure because Saul was a perfect
38:14
person or even like you go to like a King David.
38:17
It's like, no, it's like David kept going back.
38:21
Yeah. So you almost wonder in that scenario with
38:24
King David later that it like was. Did the spirit
38:29
of God lift from him and then he went back and
38:32
then came back? Right. You know what I mean?
38:33
Was there this like movement back and forth?
38:36
That could have been. I mean. I think it's possible.
38:39
It is. I mean, it's one of those like the from
38:42
God language to like look into that a little
38:44
bit. Because I would put that in a similar case
38:48
as Pharaoh during the Exodus. The hardening of
38:54
the heart. Yeah. Where it's like. at least my
38:57
view of it, and how I interpret that, it's not
39:00
that God actually went in and was like, let me
39:02
make your heart really hard now. And it's like,
39:05
no, it was actually just a result from what God
39:07
was having Moses and Aaron do. And so it's like,
39:10
in the same way, it's like, if I know that someone
39:12
gets really mad when I go and just do this, well,
39:16
I know if I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna make someone
39:17
mad. And so God knows the state of Pharaoh. When
39:23
he says, let my people go, when Aaron says that,
39:26
it's like, well, yeah, of course it's going to
39:28
make him mad. And so did God actually go in and
39:31
harden his heart physically? No, but because
39:34
of the words God had his people say, it resulted
39:38
in a hardened heart. Well, and it's consistent
39:41
with the language of what the enemy meant for
39:45
evil, the Lord turned for good. Right. And it's
39:48
that idea of like the Lord will use. those who
39:51
have turned away from evil to glorify himself
39:55
through those who are found righteous, not because
39:59
of their good works, but because of their faith
40:02
that God will lead and guide them. Yeah. So,
40:07
yeah, that's kind of an interesting concept is
40:11
like when you get into all that stuff, you can
40:13
either, and with everything, like you can go
40:15
one way of predeterminism or you can go the other
40:19
way with free will. And realistically, if you
40:22
go the way with free will, there's way more grace.
40:26
Yeah. Because everything is an opportunity. Like
40:30
you're taking a step towards God or away from
40:33
God. And we see that the grace extends continually.
40:41
It just continues to extend until the point where
40:45
it's like, okay, it's not that you're too far
40:48
gone. It's that you have decided not Yahweh.
40:54
Right. It's almost like I heard this guy say
40:56
the other day, like when we think about heaven
40:58
and hell and we think about this idea that, and
41:01
I like this, like a lot of times the statement
41:04
is made, why would a loving God send someone
41:07
to hell? But here's the thing, and I love this,
41:11
this pastor. said it this way and and i've thought
41:15
about this in a couple different ways but realistically
41:17
this is kind of the simplest way that i know
41:20
right now to say it which were his his words
41:24
but in reality if if you don't like me and you
41:30
don't want to be near me then the worst thing
41:33
i can do is put you in the situation where you
41:38
have to be next to me right so if if If a person
41:43
is saying, I don't want God, I don't want to
41:46
be with God. God is saying, I want you to be
41:49
with me. And they're continually saying, I don't
41:52
want you. Then the the actual the real question
41:56
is, how could a loving God force you to be with
42:00
him when that's not what you want? What you want
42:05
is to be away from him. Right. Yeah. So going
42:08
sending somebody to hell is not. The same as
42:12
the God giving you what you want. What you want
42:16
is to be away from God. Yeah. And so that's what
42:19
God gives to those who choose not him. Yeah.
42:23
He, he gives, it's actually an act of grace and
42:27
giving you what you want. It's a, it's actually
42:30
a gift for the center to go to hell from God,
42:33
which is a weird thing. Cause like at least what
42:36
you wanted. Yeah. What you wanted was to be apart
42:39
from me. So I'm giving you what you want. Yeah.
42:42
This is literally like, you know, it's like a
42:44
kid. Yeah. Like, Hey, I want, I want this specific
42:48
toy. And you're like, well, it's going to break
42:51
in five minutes. What if you get this one that
42:54
won't break in five? No, I want this one. Okay.
42:57
Give it to you. And it breaks. It's like, why
43:00
did you get me the toy that breaks? Cause that's
43:02
the one you wanted. Yeah. I told you, I told
43:04
you what happened. Yeah. And then that's the,
43:07
what you, so like, You know, why am I the bad
43:10
guy? Yeah, I can't win here. Yeah. So it's that
43:13
idea that, like, in this scenario, it was Saul's
43:16
decision. Right. And his movement was away from
43:21
Yahweh. Yeah, and I think what's cool about this,
43:25
because it's something that I try to keep in
43:27
my mind, especially when I'm reading passages
43:30
like this, where it's like we can't divorce God
43:33
from himself. Right. And especially when we look
43:36
at his attributes. Yeah. So it's like, okay,
43:39
we say God is love and God is just. And it's
43:43
not like he's one of those things here, but then
43:46
he's the other thing over here. Sure. It's like,
43:48
no, he's both of those things all the time. Yeah.
43:51
Because that's just who he is. Yeah. And I think
43:53
in this case, and we'll see it in these next
43:56
few verses here, it's like we see God's justice
44:01
and his grace and mercy at the same time. Sure.
44:05
Here is Saul who is continually sinned against
44:08
Yahweh. Yeah. And so God removes himself. He's
44:12
like, okay, you don't want to follow me. Yeah.
44:14
I'm going to remove myself from you. Yeah. But
44:17
then now that Saul is tormented, God then is
44:20
the one who gives him relief. Right. But through
44:22
David this time. Yeah. And then we see here it's
44:26
like Saul continually rejecting God as now he's
44:29
throwing javelins. Right. And spears. At God
44:33
or God's vessel, essentially. Yeah. But it's
44:36
like that's I think that's so cool that it's
44:37
like even in Saul's distressed after he's continually
44:41
rejected Yahweh. Yahweh is like, I'm still going
44:44
to give you relief because I want you to repent.
44:46
Right. Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's that's really
44:50
what you see. Like as you read through the Bible,
44:53
you see a God full of grace and mercy. Yes. Over
44:56
and over again. And it's like. Okay, well, we
44:58
can look at it on the other end and go, yeah,
45:00
but that's not what was best for Saul. But Yahweh's
45:04
never going, I'm going to make you do what I
45:06
know is best for you. Right. He's never doing
45:09
that. Like through the Bible, everyone gets to
45:13
do what they want to do. Yeah. That's actually
45:16
the problem is everybody realizing that what
45:20
they want to do is not what they should do. Yes.
45:25
literally what's happening all the way through
45:27
the bible continually yeah yeah so that is interesting
45:30
so yeah so so i like that thought though that
45:34
like inadvertently they realized hey that kid
45:39
who plays the liar um the spirit that was upon
45:43
saul is now upon him yeah so we'll just say the
45:47
boy we need to have him play music for you yeah
45:51
because the music will soothe you It would be
45:54
cool if that is what they recognize, but there's
45:57
no evidence of that. No, but it is a true thing.
46:00
Yeah. So it is true that we can't divorce the
46:04
idea that the reason David's lyre playing was
46:10
beneficial to Saul was not because of his ability,
46:13
but because of the spirit of God upon him. Yes.
46:16
So whether the servants knew it or not, that
46:19
is what the source is. And I think that's also
46:23
evidence of God, the fact that David was even
46:28
there at that time. Right. Because he was brought
46:31
in as Saul's armor bearer. Yeah. And so he was
46:35
in Saul's court with him. And this is before
46:39
David and Goliath. I know. That's weird. So it's
46:42
like all of this started before that event. Right.
46:45
That event is actually coming up, I think, in
46:47
the next chapter. I think it's chapter 17. Yeah,
46:50
it's like right after that. It's like right in
46:52
there. Yeah. And I think after that is when people
46:55
started to recognize basically God's anointing
47:00
on David. Yeah. And that also made Saul even
47:04
more mad. Well, because there's this private
47:06
moment. There's this private thing with Samuel
47:09
and David and the house of Jesse, really, where
47:13
there's this anointing of the king in Bethlehem,
47:16
right? Yes. Yeah. Which is really cool. But then
47:20
that's kind of outside. That's why it's interesting
47:23
because King Saul is in Jerusalem, which is just
47:28
out like that's Bethlehem is just outside of
47:30
Jerusalem. And so you have this movement where
47:33
it's like it. So the city of David is two different
47:38
cities. Oh, interesting. The city of David is
47:41
Jerusalem. It's also Bethlehem. That's fascinating.
47:46
It's referenced that way in the Bible. It's kind
47:54
of cool because it's a little bit like both places.
47:57
You kind of see the Spirit of God move into Bethlehem,
47:59
and then David moves from Bethlehem into Jerusalem,
48:04
and then you see the Messiah come into Bethlehem
48:07
and be born, and then move from Bethlehem. To
48:13
Nazareth, then to Egypt, to, you know, and then
48:17
back into Jerusalem. Yeah. So it's like there's
48:20
this movement where the Savior is being born
48:26
in Bethlehem and brought into Jerusalem. So,
48:29
yeah. That's cool. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. So,
48:33
more tormenting spirits? Yeah, I'll read these
48:36
quickly so we can just... Turn to the next spot.
48:38
I'll just read them back to back. So it's 1 Samuel
48:41
18, 10 through 12. The next day, a harmful spirit
48:45
from God rushed upon Saul and he raved within
48:48
his house while David was playing the liar. And
48:52
he did day by day. Saul had his spear in his
48:55
hand and Saul hurled the spear for he thought,
48:57
I will pin David to the wall. But David evaded
49:01
him twice. Saul was afraid of David because the
49:03
Lord was with him, but had not departed from
49:06
Saul. Or sorry, but had departed from Saul. And
49:10
then the last one is 1 Samuel 19, 9 through 10.
49:15
Then a harmful spirit from the Lord came upon
49:17
Saul as he sat in his house with his spear in
49:20
his hand and David was playing the liar. And
49:23
Saul sought to pin David to the wall with the
49:25
spear, but he eluded Saul so that he struck the
49:29
spear into the wall and David fled and escaped
49:31
that night. Well, those are all the verses where
49:38
it mentions the tormenting spirit. And it's interesting
49:41
how it just progressively gets more and more
49:43
violent, which I think is evidence of Saul's
49:47
heart and this spiritual warfare of here's David
49:53
on just the 10 ,000 foot view of it. He's been
49:58
brought in to perform this ritualistic, exorcistic
50:03
act. which is playing music for Saul, who's being
50:06
tormented by a spirit. And so there's this spiritual
50:11
warfare going on between these two spirits. And
50:14
Saul, instead of repenting, which he has not
50:18
done, instead it seems like that demonic hold
50:24
just keeps getting stronger and stronger on him.
50:26
He's like, all right, now I'm just gonna kill
50:28
David. Like, that's pretty wild. It is. The one
50:33
thing I do want to mention here, which I think
50:36
is interesting in contrast, and this is Psalm
50:39
51, 10 through 11. Okay. And this is like the
50:43
contrast of here is Saul who's repeatedly sinned
50:46
and the spirit of the Lord has left Saul. But
50:50
now in this event, this is after David. has been
50:55
with Bathsheba and that whole event. And these
50:58
are David's words. He says, creating me a clean
51:01
heart, oh God, and renew a right spirit within
51:04
me. Cast me not away from your presence and take
51:07
not your Holy Spirit from me. And so I think
51:10
that is like so interesting. So David is recognizing
51:13
like, okay, I've done something horrible and
51:16
I don't want the Holy Spirit to leave. Right.
51:20
Because I know what it looks like when it does.
51:22
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's been a witness to it.
51:24
Yeah, so what David does instead is he repents
51:26
of his sin, and the Spirit of the Lord stays
51:30
upon David. So it's almost like the Lord used
51:34
Saul in order to give David an example of wisdom
51:39
of how he can stay in relationship with him.
51:41
Yeah, as far as like, you need to repent, bro.
51:43
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've let a lot of evil in.
51:48
Well, that makes sense too with Samuel and then
51:50
to Jonathan. so like you have these relationships
51:53
there where it's like this second generation
51:56
yeah off the first generation trying to do it
51:58
the right way and then only like power going
52:02
to their heads and all that kind of stuff yeah
52:04
and then the second generation was able to learn
52:07
from those mistakes right but then the third
52:09
generation starts from the good good place and
52:13
then ends Back in the bad place. So it's almost
52:18
like you need to witness the wrong way of doing
52:21
it to maintain the correct way. I think that
52:24
can help us sometimes. But if you only see the
52:26
correct way, it's easy to fall back into the
52:28
wrong way. Yeah. Which is tricky. Yeah, it's
52:32
such a tricky spot to be in. It's like, I don't
52:35
know. The only way to really do that would be
52:38
to invite in mentors and different people who
52:42
can continue the stories. Yeah. Which is really
52:44
what the Bible has done for us. Like the word
52:48
of God has done for us is given us the opportunity
52:51
to learn from the stories. Right. Before making
52:54
the mistakes. Yeah. And I think that's where...
52:56
We can look to a Saul and a David. David is such
52:59
a good example of this specifically. Yeah. Because
53:03
we just have so much... of his wrongdoing and
53:06
of his repentance. Yeah, that's true. And I think
53:09
that's where it's beneficial for us because it's
53:11
like we're all human beings. We're all going
53:13
to sin. We're all going to make mistakes. Yeah.
53:16
But the right response, the right thing to do
53:19
is not just to never sin. Right. I mean, that
53:21
is the right thing to do. Right, of course. But
53:23
it's impossible for us to not sin. Yes. To some
53:26
extent. But the right thing to do is to repent
53:29
and... try not to sin anymore. Yes. And if you
53:32
do again, because you will, is to repent again.
53:35
Yes. And try over. Yes. Yeah, exactly. So, all
53:40
right. Any more juicy stuff about evil spirits?
53:44
Oh, actually, yes. I got a bit. Give me some
53:46
juice. I'll start rapid fire on this. Give me
53:48
some juice. Well, so the one thing I do want
53:51
to talk about in here is the phrase evil spirit
53:55
or tormenting spirit. Yeah. The Hebrew there
53:58
is ruach ra. And that phrase literally just means
54:02
evil spirit. That makes sense. Ruach is breath.
54:06
Spirit or spirit. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.
54:10
And so then we have that contrasted in that first
54:14
verse of spirit of the Lord, which is ruach Yahweh.
54:18
Okay. So the breath of God. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
54:22
It's interesting because we talk about like the
54:24
Rafa being the negative side. Yes. But then Ruach
54:31
is spirit. So it's this interesting that like
54:35
Rafa would lean towards an evil spirit. And then
54:40
Ruach would be breath of God or spirit of God.
54:44
Yeah. Yeah. It's all. Pretty closely related.
54:47
Yeah. It can go one way or the other. Which is
54:50
pretty interesting. It is. Yeah. And I think
54:53
that looking at it that way in the Hebrew for
54:55
these verses is interesting because in this verse
54:57
it says the spirit of the Lord has departed from
55:01
Saul and a tormenting spirit has come upon him.
55:03
Right. And it's like looking at that, it's like,
55:06
okay, so the good has left. The good breath,
55:09
the good spirit left Saul. Yes. And then he breathed
55:12
in an evil spirit, an evil breath. Yeah. Yeah.
55:18
Well, if you don't brush your teeth, you have
55:20
bad breath. That's true. It's just bad in and
55:24
out. Yeah. You got to brush your teeth. The teeth
55:30
of your heart. I'm skipping ahead a little bit
55:32
because we talked about a lot of this, which
55:33
is cool. Awesome. Give me that juice. Well, so
55:37
the other thing, which I feel like just to touch
55:40
on it again briefly, is looking at music specifically.
55:44
Yeah. Because that's a big part of this story
55:47
with Saul and David. And it's one of those things
55:52
like this isn't an isolated moment in scripture
55:54
where music is used as a way to worship the Lord
55:58
and it has been used for other pretty amazing
56:03
things. I think one of them, I'll talk about
56:08
this one, this is 2 Chronicles 20. Starting in
56:11
verse 20, it says, And when he had taken counsel
56:34
with the people, he appointed those who were
56:36
to sing to the Lord and praise him in holy attire.
56:41
As they went before the army and say, give thanks
56:44
to the Lord for his steadfast love endures forever.
56:47
And when they began to sing in praise, the Lord
56:51
set an ambush against the men of Ammon, Moab,
56:54
and Mount Seir, who had come against Judah, so
56:58
that they were routed. Ammon and Moab rose against
57:04
the inhabitants of Mount Seir, devoting them
57:06
to destruction. And when they had made an end
57:09
of the inhabitants of Seir, they all helped to
57:11
destroy one another. So what's interesting about
57:14
this is they send out singers in front of the
57:19
armies. The army is way in the back. And here
57:21
are these vocalists up front that are praising
57:24
Yahweh. And then what does that do as a result
57:28
is the armies that they're supposed to go out
57:30
and defend against are all attacking each other
57:33
and destroyed each other. Yeah. And again, it's
57:36
one of those like what they're singing, the fact
57:38
that they're singing isn't a formula. Right.
57:42
It's like, okay, if you just copy this in the
57:44
melody, then your enemies will fight each other
57:46
by themselves. Yeah. It's like, no, but it's
57:49
like, it's that music was used to worship Yahweh
57:52
and Yahweh went before them. to do battle. Well,
57:57
if you think about a wall of death in a metal
58:00
mosh pit, it's like we're still playing that
58:06
music, just for some reason we all give hugs
58:08
and shake hands at the end. Yeah, that's true.
58:12
It's like, pitch the liar down to drop D. You
58:18
know what I mean? Drop C, keep going. Yeah. It's
58:25
like that lower frequency. I'm interested in
58:29
what those sounds were. They probably were lower
58:31
frequency. It's very possible, yeah. But you
58:34
do see that. And that also reminds me of Jericho.
58:38
That's the other one I have in there. It's like
58:39
such a pretty famous one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of
58:42
like, here they're blowing trumpets and marching.
58:44
Yes. And a whole place just comes tumbling down.
58:47
Yes. As the song says. Yes. But there's quite
58:52
a few places that we see that throughout. I don't
58:54
have to get into all of them. But as you can
58:57
see, there's an extensive amount of places where...
59:01
I mean, another big one I'll touch on in the
59:03
New Testament is Paul and Silas in prison. Yeah,
59:07
they're singing. That they're singing and suddenly
59:09
an earthquake comes and all the doors open wide.
59:12
Yeah, there's a relationship between giving God
59:15
glory musically. Yeah. creation shifting or things
59:22
changing in the direction of the good of those
59:26
who love him yes which is pretty cool yeah and
59:30
it's it's interesting and i think that's um yeah
59:34
it's that it's that weird spot where it's like
59:36
music is very powerful yeah um i mean there's
59:40
a reason that we have music in our normal services
59:43
sundays christian services yeah yeah true but
59:47
also we're not the only ones that do that right
59:49
other religions do that as well yeah and so like
59:52
there's a there's a power going back to even
59:54
frequencies like there is a power behind music
59:56
but it's not and this is the difference with
1:00:00
christianity and followers of christ in the example
1:00:02
that jesus gives us um especially is it's not
1:00:07
that you are doing this thing but this thing
1:00:10
is a way that yahweh has asked you to worship
1:00:13
him yeah Exactly. Yeah. The funny thing is, is
1:00:17
I think about because there's been a lot of conversations
1:00:20
around this, but I feel like there's a potential
1:00:23
that the pyramids in Egypt were just like this
1:00:26
giant guy with a huge violin. Yeah. And just
1:00:31
like playing the fiddle like a 15 foot giant
1:00:35
Nephilim playing the playing a fiddle and the
1:00:39
blocks were just moving in place. And they were
1:00:42
being lifted up and dropped in places. That goes
1:00:44
to like Coral Castle a little bit. Yeah, that's
1:00:46
true. If you're familiar with that. Where that's
1:00:47
the belief that he was using some box to like
1:00:51
amplify his whistling frequency or humming. That
1:00:54
would actually levitate these massive stones.
1:00:57
Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting one. It's Coral
1:00:59
Castle. Also strange. Very strange. Super strange.
1:01:03
But yeah. Yeah. So the other thing I want to
1:01:07
look at, this is the last. piece of this is outside
1:01:10
of scripture and kind of answering that question
1:01:12
a little bit more of like in a fun speculative
1:01:14
way of like yeah who's what is tormenting salt
1:01:17
what is this thing can we put a name to it yeah
1:01:20
yeah potentially that'd be cool and uh there's
1:01:22
a possibility there because biblically we're
1:01:24
not really talking about an actual name but like
1:01:27
right yeah okay and i think that's that's something
1:01:30
we've touched on before scripture i think does
1:01:32
that very intentionally okay even when it's talking
1:01:35
about like ball Yeah. It's like, well, there's
1:01:38
actually a lot of them. Right. But it doesn't
1:01:41
name a specific one intentionally because it's
1:01:44
like, it doesn't matter. They're all the same.
1:01:46
Sure. At the end of the day. Yeah. And so I don't
1:01:49
think scripture is really that troubled with
1:01:52
giving us those details. Yeah, that's fair. Also
1:01:55
because it would be fairly common knowledge for
1:01:58
those people to be like, oh, that thing, that's
1:02:00
this. Yeah, yeah. And that's just a knowledge
1:02:02
that we don't have. Yeah. So outside of scripture,
1:02:07
among the Dead Sea Scrolls, funny enough, is
1:02:12
a collection known as, ready for this, 11 Q Apocryphal
1:02:17
Psalms or 11 Q 11. 11 Q 11. Yeah. Well, in the
1:02:22
Dead Sea Scrolls, everything is Q something.
1:02:24
Yes. Yeah. A lot of Qs. So that's fair. And it's
1:02:28
dated to roughly the first century BC. It contains
1:02:32
songs specifically intended for people afflicted
1:02:35
by demons. Oh, okay. Very strange. That is strange.
1:02:38
In another Qumran text, 4Q510 -511. Okay. Very
1:02:45
memorable titles. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Consists
1:02:49
of hymns understood as being used against or
1:02:52
for protection from evil spirits. Okay. And then
1:02:57
we have, this is an interesting one. This is
1:02:59
Josephus. When he's retelling Saul's story, says
1:03:05
that physicians could find no remedy except someone
1:03:08
who could charm those passions by singing and
1:03:11
playing upon the harp. Oh, so it's like the management
1:03:15
of evil spirits or tormenting spirits was done
1:03:20
through music. Yeah. That's interesting. Yes,
1:03:25
it's like... Especially in pagan worship. Yeah.
1:03:28
It would be like the summoning of them would
1:03:30
be done through music. But there's also showing
1:03:33
that they're using it as a way of protecting
1:03:35
from... A deterrent, yeah. Yeah. That's true.
1:03:38
That's interesting. And then we have... I think
1:03:41
about that with like... Just like playing worship
1:03:46
music through your house. Oh, yeah. It's like...
1:03:50
You can't say that it doesn't do anything. Because
1:03:54
the space feels different. It does feel different.
1:03:56
Yeah, and it's like, to just make it more extreme,
1:04:00
it's like if you were playing in your house music
1:04:04
that has been very intentionally designed to
1:04:08
worship another deity, your space will also feel
1:04:12
very strange. Yeah, like Nordic Odin metal. Yeah,
1:04:19
which is a thing. Yeah, I know. It's crazy. And
1:04:22
it's like, oh, this is just pure worship to Odin.
1:04:26
To Odin, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, don't look that up.
1:04:29
No. It's real. I unfortunately listened to it
1:04:31
and I was like, I'm not listening to this. It
1:04:34
immediately felt strange in my head. Now the
1:04:36
spirit of Odin is in Paul's car. Yeah, which
1:04:39
funny enough, it was actually before I even knew
1:04:42
what it actually was. Yeah. I was like. Oh, wait,
1:04:44
this feels weird. Let me look it up. This is
1:04:47
weird. Oops. Lord, take the spirit of Odin out
1:04:51
of my car. It hasn't run the same since. It is
1:04:57
sounding kind of loud out there. There's a lot
1:04:59
of electrical issues with it. Oh, man. Well,
1:05:05
so the other interesting thing is in Greek mythology,
1:05:07
in the Argonautica, the Argonauts encounter the
1:05:13
Sirens. And for those that don't know, those
1:05:17
are supernatural beings who sing lures sailors
1:05:20
toward death. Yeah, through singing. Through
1:05:22
singing. And so Orpheus responds to the sirens
1:05:28
by taking up his lyre and playing against the
1:05:31
siren's song, preventing their music from overpowering
1:05:34
the Argonauts. So he actually cancels out their
1:05:37
song so that way they're protected from being
1:05:41
lured to death. Yeah, and it's interesting because
1:05:44
you see cherub depicted with liars, which is
1:05:51
kind of interesting. Because guardian angel cherubs
1:05:55
or guardian cherubs having liars is interesting.
1:06:01
It's very interesting. I think it goes back to
1:06:03
that idea. It's not necessarily represented in
1:06:06
the Bible, but if the cherub is known as a guardian,
1:06:12
then using an instrument that is known to guard
1:06:18
you and putting those two things together makes
1:06:21
sense. Yeah, that does. And when I say guardian
1:06:24
cherub holding a lyre, really what you should
1:06:27
be picturing is a medieval baby angel. Yes. With
1:06:31
a slight towel on. Yeah, with a lyre. A loose
1:06:35
towel. Which looks like a U -shape, like horse
1:06:37
shape. Yes. Yeah, which is interesting. Because
1:06:42
we don't really have lyres. No, we just call
1:06:44
them harps now. Yeah, but even that is different.
1:06:47
Which are different. The scales are different.
1:06:49
Yes. Like the actual frequencies are different.
1:06:52
Yeah. We need to get our hands on a lyre. It
1:06:55
would change our life. I'm sure you could get
1:06:57
one. I'm going to look one up. You probably could.
1:06:59
I'm sure that somebody in Turkey makes one. Oh,
1:07:02
100%. Yeah. Yeah. You get your symbols there
1:07:05
too. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Only if you want good
1:07:09
ones. That's true. Too long game. That's right.
1:07:12
Shout out. Shout out too long game. Did you just
1:07:16
do the Sammy Sosa? Yeah. And then we have in
1:07:23
Egypt. Okay. There is the Tsar possession tradition.
1:07:28
particular spirits jinn or czar spirits are associated
1:07:32
with particular musical patterns specific drum
1:07:36
rhythms can be used to summon identify appease
1:07:39
or interact with a possessing spirit she's like
1:07:44
okay so that's fascinating it is and then we
1:07:46
have our good old boy mesopotamia okay and in
1:07:50
uh mesopotamian Mesopotamian exorcistic tradition.
1:07:54
Okay. That was a lot of words. That's a lot to
1:07:57
put together. Describe priests using noise and
1:08:00
musical instruments to frighten and drive away
1:08:02
evil spirits. There are also named demons contained
1:08:05
in some of these texts. Okay. It's like, okay,
1:08:09
crazy. So this is where I started just kind of
1:08:12
having a little bit of fun. So are there, in
1:08:14
Mesopotamian culture, were there songs that were
1:08:17
specifically made to go against specific spirits.
1:08:23
Yeah, that's what it seemed like. Like ritual
1:08:26
music? Or ritual songs? Oh no, Beelzebub is here.
1:08:31
Make sure that you play Rock Around the Clock
1:08:34
tonight. Actually, Rockin' Robin. He hates that
1:08:37
song. He hates that one. Smells like teen spirit.
1:08:42
That would be awesome. He loves that song. No,
1:08:50
you're summoning him. My bad. You're summoning
1:08:53
him. He's letting his hair down. No. Yeah, wrong
1:09:03
song. That's hilarious. So, yeah, these are all
1:09:09
songs that summon them, like Bohemian Rhapsody.
1:09:12
Oh, you know that summoning something. Or Hotel
1:09:15
California. Yeah, they would love that. They
1:09:18
just start naming other songs. You just keep
1:09:20
naming them. So what's interesting with this
1:09:24
is we touched on this a little bit. You could
1:09:26
probably just sing So Will I. Or So Will I, yeah.
1:09:29
The whole song. So Will I. If the stars were
1:09:33
made to wish you so well. Like that one probably
1:09:36
just gets rid of all of them. They're like, all
1:09:38
right, I'm out. Yeah. You can mess with them,
1:09:41
though. One of you smells like teen spirit, the
1:09:45
other one plays so a lot. They're like, which
1:09:47
way do I go? I don't know what's happening. I
1:09:50
thought you were letting us in. They just split
1:09:51
into two. Ah! They're melting. Oh, that works.
1:09:57
Okay, keep going. Why didn't we think of that?
1:10:01
So Saul lived in a world. Where the idea of ritual
1:10:05
sound or music interacting with supernatural
1:10:07
forces was already a well -established belief.
1:10:11
And the idea of sound, spoken word, instruments,
1:10:14
ritual, and the spiritual realm could interact
1:10:17
was not foreign. So finding a musician to help
1:10:20
Saul in his state would have been a normal approach.
1:10:23
Sure. Which is what we see. It's like they don't
1:10:25
even think twice. They're just like, all right,
1:10:27
he's being tormented. go find someone who's good
1:10:29
with the liar. Yeah. And that makes sense. Like
1:10:31
it was just part of how they did things. Yeah.
1:10:34
Yeah. I mean, we see even with, um, ancient,
1:10:37
which at this point, those Mesopotamian beliefs
1:10:40
and ideas would have been very old by the time
1:10:44
of Saul and David. Yes. Um, and so getting a
1:10:50
little bit of fun in here, um, uh, how, so as,
1:10:56
Fun thought experiment. I'm trying to read these.
1:10:59
These are tiny words. Fun thought experiment.
1:11:01
Let's do it. So in a way to humanize this moment
1:11:05
that we see here with Saul, there are a few ways
1:11:08
we could look at this through the lens of Mesopotamian
1:11:12
writing. Okay. That's the approach that I took
1:11:14
to this. Yeah, yeah. In order to try and see
1:11:19
if we can name the tormenting spirit. Yes. Okay.
1:11:23
So we're playing a game of name the tormenting
1:11:25
spirit. Name that spirit. I came after Saul.
1:11:29
So the best fit that I've seen with Saul using
1:11:34
these named spirits in Mesopotamian history is
1:11:37
Udug. Udug? Or Utuku in Akkadian. Okay. So the
1:11:44
Utuku or Udug, whichever you like. I like it.
1:11:48
I like both. They're both kind of fun. They are.
1:11:51
Was a broad class of hostile supernatural beings.
1:11:55
The important thing is that they weren't necessarily
1:11:57
specialized demons. They could produce illness,
1:12:03
distress, misfortune, and spiritual affliction.
1:12:06
And the Utuku Lemnutu, evil Utuku. Writings consist
1:12:14
specifically of incantations against such hostile
1:12:17
supernatural powers and disturbed ghosts. So
1:12:21
when we look at Saul's experience, he had sudden
1:12:26
episodes, severe psychological, spiritual distress,
1:12:30
they were reoccurring, associated with a supernatural
1:12:35
agent, and then relief through ritualized music.
1:12:39
And then we have the Utuku. Hostile spiritual
1:12:44
agent, capable of afflicting humans, treated
1:12:47
through exorcistic ritual, often addressed through
1:12:51
incantation in ritual action. So with that, it's
1:12:55
not like an exact match to what we're seeing
1:12:57
here. Sure. But the general category fits very
1:13:02
well, I think. Yeah, sounds like it. And there's
1:13:05
an especially interesting detail. Some descriptions
1:13:08
of the Utuku emphasize darkness, shadow, and
1:13:12
terrifying voice or noise. Oh. And what's interesting
1:13:16
is we read in, I think it was chapter 18 of 1
1:13:20
Samuel. Yeah, it says Saul raved with his...
1:13:25
with his house. He wasn't there with glow sticks.
1:13:29
So it's like, here he is screaming like a madman.
1:13:32
So it's like the idea to kind of make it tangible,
1:13:35
at least for myself. It's like, was he seeing
1:13:39
these shadows and figures just running around
1:13:42
the room yelling at him? Maybe. And just making
1:13:45
a bunch of hubbubaloo. Yeah. Like, maybe that,
1:13:49
I mean, that would make me scream. Same. Yeah.
1:13:53
Yeah. I don't know if I'd like that. No. Okay.
1:13:57
So, yeah, so he could have been seeing and hearing
1:13:59
these things that were bringing him this psychological
1:14:02
torment. Okay, yeah. So, the other thing. That
1:14:07
I saw in here. And this opens a can of worms,
1:14:10
which is a fun one to end on. And so Mesopotamian
1:14:18
thought also had restless or dead spirits that
1:14:23
could afflict the living. Some of the exorcistic
1:14:26
literature specifically deals with disturbed
1:14:29
ghosts of the dead alongside demons. And some
1:14:33
descriptions of a tuku themselves seem to have
1:14:36
developed partly from earlier concepts of ghosts.
1:14:40
So in the ancient Near Eastern mind, the possibilities
1:14:43
of the torment was not necessarily limited to
1:14:47
just a demon. And it's like, oh, that raises
1:14:50
some strange hairs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so
1:14:54
what's interesting with this, I wanted to look
1:14:55
into that a little bit. And so this is, I found
1:14:59
this interesting because Saul, we see, is not
1:15:04
innocent of killing innocent people. And so one
1:15:10
case is the massacre at Nob. Saul accused Ahimelech
1:15:15
and the priests of conspiring with David, and
1:15:18
he killed 85 priests along with Nob itself, including
1:15:23
men, women, children, and infants. And then we
1:15:27
also see when he breaks the covenant with the
1:15:30
Gibeonites. and tries to destroy them. This becomes
1:15:35
stronger even in 2 Samuel 21 during David's reign.
1:15:39
Israel experienced a three -year famine. David
1:15:43
asks God why, and God answers in 2 Samuel 21.
1:15:48
There is blood guilt on Saul and on his house
1:15:52
because he put the Gibeonites to death. And so
1:15:56
these events, the events at Nob, and these other
1:16:01
events with the Gibeonites happened after Saul's
1:16:03
torment had started. So I don't think it's the
1:16:07
origin of what we're seeing, but it doesn't mean
1:16:10
they didn't become part of his torment. And that's
1:16:12
kind of what I alluded to earlier with this compounding
1:16:15
thing. Because we see him increasing in his torment,
1:16:20
in his tormented state. And it's like, looking
1:16:25
at just the Near Eastern mind, if we want to
1:16:27
throw these innocent... that are now putting
1:16:32
another part in his torment. I mean, we even
1:16:34
see with Cain and Abel where God talks about
1:16:37
the blood of Abel is calling to him. Yeah, it's
1:16:40
true. And so it's like, there's this interesting
1:16:42
spiritual level, not saying like, go surreal,
1:16:45
here we go. Well. Because I don't really want
1:16:47
to talk about that fully because I think there's
1:16:50
a lot more that we could do to approach that
1:16:52
subject well. Sure. But I'm not saying that they're
1:16:56
not. Well, I mean, just simply put, if there's
1:17:00
warnings against necromancy and communicating
1:17:02
with the dead, and also there's instances in
1:17:06
the New Testament where they go, is that a ghost?
1:17:10
That's true. That means that they have that word
1:17:12
in their vocabulary. Yes. So whether it's folklore
1:17:15
to them, like it kind of is to us. Or it's more
1:17:20
of a reality for them. Yeah. And they're not
1:17:23
supposed to communicate with the dead. Yes. Then
1:17:26
it would be more obvious to assume that, yeah,
1:17:31
they would agree. Yes. That like, yeah, there
1:17:35
were dead people that would appear to them. Yeah.
1:17:40
And I mean, even in that view, like that's going
1:17:43
back to Mesopotamia. Right. And it's like, so
1:17:46
it's a very ancient belief. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:17:49
And so what's interesting is like, again, we
1:17:51
can't know for sure what was going on, who was
1:17:53
tormenting Saul. Sure. But those, at least from
1:17:56
that cultural context, is like what I saw that
1:17:59
was like, these both could fit very well to the
1:18:02
situation. Yeah. Which I think is interesting
1:18:05
and it kind of humanizes that moment a little
1:18:07
bit. Yeah, sure. And puts it in a context that
1:18:10
I've never done before. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting.
1:18:14
Yeah. So, yeah. So there's a lot of things at
1:18:17
play there where it's, it's evil spirits coming
1:18:19
upon him. But the main thing is the starting
1:18:21
point where you go, the spirit of God lifts itself
1:18:24
from Saul. And at that point, all bets are off.
1:18:27
Right. But there's something active happening.
1:18:30
Yes. So it's not just like Saul's just sitting
1:18:33
there and everything is neutral. Like he is sitting
1:18:37
there and it's neutral until the spirits come.
1:18:40
Yeah. So it's not just happening. Like he's,
1:18:44
It's not happening without something else coming.
1:18:47
Right. So that is an interesting idea. And it
1:18:50
goes to that idea of authority. Yeah. When it's
1:18:54
like when we are living righteously, we are giving
1:18:59
more authority to Yahweh. Yes. But when we are
1:19:03
living unrighteously, which is what Saul did,
1:19:06
in an unrepentant state, we are giving authority
1:19:09
to demonic powers. Right. And so that means they
1:19:13
have a wide open door to do what they want when
1:19:15
they want. Yeah. Yeah. So, so Saul is tormented
1:19:19
and we might know the name of his tormentor.
1:19:26
Possibly. Three, two, one.