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Una Healy // Hi from a Human · Rough Drafts - Exploring Creative Process - by BOUNCE

• Danielle: In this episode, we talk about the parish priests giving permission for Una to go to art college, designing Valentine's cards that backfired because all the boys thought Una had sent them, and a secondhand Mac bought from the Buy and Sell magazine and Quark Express learned from a book in a week. This episode is 30 years in the making. What the conversation explores is what sustains a practice across three decades. The big project in the episode is Hi from a Human. A marque Una woke up one morning and decided to create and release it to the global creative community before she even had time to think about it. We go into where it came from, the anger, not the kind of anger she normally feels, but the anger at watching illustrators and designers lose work to AI systems built on their own creative output and her ambition for it into the future. We also talk about a dementia inclusive project that won the Universal Design Award and her drawer of shame and what Una tells young designers when they call looking for a little bit of guidance. Welcome to Rough Drafts where ideas are still forming. Today's guest is Una Healy, who has been a graphic designer since she was 14 years old, and she's celebrating 30 years in business this year. She has run her own studio in Dublin for many years, building an independent practice across branding, illustration, infographics, packaging, animation, book design, and web design, from startups to large corporates, with the same personalised approach to every brief. That continuity. Decades of independent practice, sustained and self-directed across a remarkable range of disciplines is the backdrop to the Hi for Human Story, a mark created for the design community to highlight the ingenuity of human creativity. We'll speak more about that and her award-winning universal design work in this episode. Welcome, Una Healy. Una Healy Design: Thank you very much, Danielle Thanks for inviting me on your podcast. Danielle: So fourteen years old you started. tell us how did you get into the industry? Una Healy Design: Well as you say, at 14 years I think it was probably the lightbulb moment. So prior to that I'd always loved art in school and I was always at home making things from old shoeboxes and... messing with cornflakes, boxes, always had an interest in making things. And I suppose when I went to secondary school then we had formal art classes. That was absolutely brilliant because you could get to explore different facets of art. But however, at the moment where the business and the art kicked in, that was when I was 14 and it was coming up to Valentine's Day in my school. I was in an all-girls school, so we very little contact with boys. So one of the girls in particular whose name I won't mention here of course, she asked me to draw a cartoon of the boy that she liked. She used to cycle to school every day. So I drew a picture of him and she filled her card full of lovely poems. And then another girl saw that and then it grew from there. And then they were paying me, now it's something like 10p or 20p, whatever it was. But I realized I could do something I really liked doing and make money from it. What none of us foresaw though was sort of backfired because the boys thought I had sent a load of Valentine cards out that year because they were all the same style. So we didn't look that far. But I suppose that really piqued my interest and by the time we were doing career guidance in school I knew I wanted to go and see the art colleges but I suppose back then my parents were really not keen on me doing art. This just came out of nowhere in my family and I remember saying well just let me do the foundation year and I'll see how I get on and so My mother actually tells a story where she met the parish priest and asked, would it be OK? Did he think if I went to art college, that's a real cringy Anyway, he said yes, year, definitely. And I suppose because they thought, you know, the image of poor artists working in attics and making no money. And... Anyway, I convinced them that this was the right thing for me to do and having been in to see an end of year show in NCAD, I was just blown away by it. I mean, it was everything, even the piece, even the smell in the college of the paint and everything. So I knew from very early age that was what I wanted to do. And I went into Dun Laoghaire Art College, IADT as it is now, and we did a foundation year, which was really, really helpful because we tried everything. So graphic design is a small part of that but I knew that was always what I was drawn to and partly illustration. Illustration you couldn't study without going to Belfast at that point and Belfast wasn't a place anybody unfortunately wanted to be at that particular time. after my first year I went and did visual communications and I just loved everything about it. When I left art college four years later, we were all told basically to emigrate because there were no jobs in design. But there were jobs in animation. So I tried that for a year, but I knew it wasn't for me after a week of painting bubbles on a bar of soap for a feeble and American tale. And I thought, my God, I think I'm actually going, I can't do this. And I hadn't got the interest in the old animation drawing it cell by cell and the the labour involved in that. So I moved to London and that was the complete eye-opener because you just went to a job agency and they said okay here's some interviews you can go to and I went to the interviews and got my first interview and started in graphic design where we did a lot of audio visual work and so through that I would have worked with agencies through my own company that I worked with there. then I moved around, London was a great place for moving around and every time you went for another job you just said, I want more money. So was Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: really so different from Dublin at the time. Danielle: Mm. Una Healy Design: And so I was in London for three years, but I actually, missed the sea and I grew up near the sea and it's a huge part of my life. And I found that to go anywhere near the sea in London. You were sitting in traffic and it was a long journey and then I missed my family too and my sister started having babies and I thought I'd be the auntie living in London. So I really wanted to come home. I tried to get a job from London and I just couldn't. And then I decided to set up a business. So was mainly in audio visual work. So in the height of a recession, I took out a huge lease on equipment because At that time there were no MacBooks, their PowerPoint was only just starting and it was really clunky and you had to know the DOS language as well. we had to bring in specific equipment to create audiovisual graphics and we would get those developed down the road on Baggot Street and then mount all these slides and send them off to all the ad agencies. was the only way I could come home. It was a huge learning experience for me because I... I would have been particularly shy, so going out and knocking on doors and looking for a business was alien to me, but it had to be done. And Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Una Healy Design: it was also quite a man's world then. So it was always I was somebody's secretary going along, which was a whole other conversation. it actually, you know, when you do something that pushes you way out of your comfort zone, you Danielle: Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: just learn from it. I did, I actually learned that I love the whole business side of everything. And then we had work that was published every week in the business magazine, Business and Finance. And we did their graphics and we got free advertising. And the whole thing snowballed. So we became the go-to place in Dublin at that time. And then after about seven years, I could see the market was shifting and people had their own PCs and they were sending us in work on PowerPoint. I thought, this business model isn't sustainable. We could have pivoted, but I actually decided at that point to sell. my share in the business which was great because that sort of cleared a mortgage like I was recently married and we were starting a family and I thought this all works very well so it meant that it took financial pressures off us and and then because I always loved graphic design I kept even in my spare time I'd be working with watercolours or pen and ink drawings and it was always something I turned to in if I was ever stressed or you know the way life throws your curve balls or whatever and it was something that really worked for me to calm me down and just get me into a good place. after a few months at home and my daughter was born and everything, was all lovely. said, I really miss my job. But I loved the privilege of being able to to rear my own children's homes was something that also took us a bit of a curveball because I thought I'm in business forever. I love my children minded and the miniature first baby was born. I don't want to I don't want to leave. and I thought if I work in graphic design alongside I can do the two. So very gradually, I think the first job... so I had no computer at home and I saw an ad in the back of the Times and there was somebody looking for graphics for their presentation they were doing for their thesis and they were looking for audio visual slides and I sure, I'll apply to that. So I got an interview and they said, you must be able to use Cork Express and be proficient on Apple Macs and I was going, okay, I've never done that. And I said, yes, when is the interview? So they gave me a week. I looked up a buy and sell magazine, bought a second down the back with all of the software loaded on there and bought the books and easements on how to use QuarkXPress and Adobe Illustrator. Thought, well I can't learn this whole, I can't learn all of this before the interview so I thought, well arrows, boxes, whatever, you know, they might need graphs, whatever. So I went along to the interview and... The interview was fine and it was for five days a week full time but it was the other side of the city from where I lived and we had one car and I thought, my god. This is a nightmare. So Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: I said to them, why don't we do it? You fax me. This is how old this is. You fax me your information. I'll do the work. I'll fax you back the proofs. And then the couriers can pick up the finished product. So that was all good. And then they said, OK, so can you sit down and do the test to see that you can make up these graphics? And I said, absolutely. So there was three people behind me. I was on this computer that I really was not. I was really sweating. lot, they were glowing a lot when I was doing these graphics. I worked, was all hours in a box and thought, thank God, at least I practiced that. But it took me about 20 minutes to do a simple diagram and thought, this isn't going to work. And when I'd finished it, said, OK, there it is up on the screen. And they said, my God, we can't believe. fast you are at that. So they had, it worked out brilliantly, but they were my first client and they stayed with me for about 25 years until they Danielle: Wow. Una Healy Design: got their in-house graphic designer. that was brilliant and from there this second business just grew from word to mouth. And then Danielle: Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: when I got a website together and all of that it grew really fast and really, really expanded and it was a case of in the beginning and people said, you do that? And I go, yes, I can do that. And then it was, you just learn. And so it was, yeah, it was a great learning curve. yeah, so that's how I got to be sitting here today. That was 30 years ago. Danielle: It's great though. It's fake it till you make it, right? You know, I think everyone has that story like that that they nod along saying, yeah, yeah, I do that all the time, or yeah, yeah, I can do that. And you know, there is Una Healy Design: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Danielle: a bit of a confidence in that, but like, you know, you'll get to you'll get to learn how to do the thing proficiently, you know, in time. And Una Healy Design: Absolutely. Danielle: I I love that your parish priests give you give you probably the okay Una Healy Design: no, no, I know I was mortified. I know it'll be okay. Danielle: There's me thinking we needed to convince guidance counsellors it's actually Una Healy Design: The parish priest, the man for the job. I was so embarrassed, but anyway, my mother was very pleased. And I think after the first year when they saw how happy I was and how much I loved it, they just said, look, you know, we can't pull her out to that Secretarial Correspondent. Danielle: And do you think now of having such a lovely career in the industry, do you think the industry has changed? You mentioned at the start it was a very male dominated space. Do you think it's changed now? Yeah. Una Healy Design: totally changed. really has. When I started, was, there was the odd woman there in business, but really it was men in suits. And anything that I went to, any business meetings, were men in suits. And there was like that old boys club, I suppose. So it was harder to break into. Then Google arrived in websites, and now you can be whoever you want to be on a website, really. You can sell anything. Google rankings were huge and important. think that changed everything. Apart from the fact that women were grooving themselves in different industries. So it's very, very different now. And I see my children there. There's no difference between. They would never think, prefer a man to do that or a woman to that. They don't. It's just not, it's all gone, thank goodness. it's if you're the right person for the job, doesn't matter who you are. So that's brilliant. Danielle: Yeah. Yeah, no, it is. It's it is good to see. I know from the WHY Design piece that IDI run every year for International Una Healy Design: Yes. Danielle: Women's Day. And I was speaking at one of the events and I looked at the statistics around women in leadership roles in design and the the dial is not really moving And I do kind of wonder why that is when there are so many women in the colleges, you know, there's like it's usually seventy, thirty, you know, but it's it seems like we we kind of lose Una Healy Design: brilliant yeah Danielle: them somewhere along the way. And you know, I wonder is there, you know, is there a correlation there between like motherhood and caring, being that, you have to dip out of of of of work most times for a period of time, you Una Healy Design: Yes. Danielle: know, for every woman in every career. I wonder is the sector flexible enough to br bring them back into into their their jobs? Mm. Una Healy Design: I don't think it is yet and as you say it's in every sector and I think that when you come away and you're even on maternity leave you go into this bubble because that's the way nature intended it and you actually lose a lot of confidence as well and you think all I know about it is nappies and burping babies and you absolutely do lose confidence until you get back in there and you it's like riding a bike you don't forget it and Danielle: Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: actually I would say that then having dealt with any toddlers in your lifetime my god you're so ready for meeting all sorts of people you Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: can really like it's such a brilliant training you know how to diffuse Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: and get people to move along where you want them to yeah Danielle: completely. Like it's it's it's like yeah, it's a negotiation with a toddler. You know, you if you can negotiate with a toddler you're Una Healy Design: If you can do that, you're good to go. And actually that's a skill that can be brought to business and it's highly underrated, but it's Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: a magnificent skill. Danielle: Absolutely. And and the you know the the multitasking kind of as well that comes along with all of that too. So yeah, no, completely. But I do I do feel Una Healy Design: Yeah, totally. Yeah. Danielle: like you know those flexible environments in across every industry are are maybe not that flexible. You know, I think there's a lot of lip service paid to supporting women, but I wonder, Una Healy Design: Yeah. Danielle: you know, how how true that really is when you look at bareface statistics around our sector where it's you know women are it is Una Healy Design: Yeah, it's disappointing. Yeah, isn't it? Danielle: Yeah, it really is. Una Healy Design: And then you see the, there's mighty women in the design business in Ireland. They're incredible powerhouses. And Danielle: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Una Healy Design: you see the likes of Mary from Red Dog like a brilliant agency. She did it, Danielle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: she left college and started that. So she was Danielle: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Una Healy Design: always in charge of her own gig, you know? Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: But yeah, I would agree if there's 70 % to 30 % women going in and doing the graphic design courses and it's mainly men who are. the agencies there's something not right there at the moment but I think Danielle: Mm-hmm. At the moment, yeah. Una Healy Design: I think it will change and I do agree with you I mean nature is is dictating really that and unless it's very unusual circumstances you can't really not take that time out when you've had a baby Danielle: Yeah, it's impossible. Yeah, no, it is. It's a it's a juggle all right. But I suppose then having that view of the the industry I'm just gonna move straight to one of the most prominent projects that I've seen for a while. the Hi from a Human project. Maybe we'll talk a little bit about this particular one. where did that start from? What was your inspiration? Yeah. Una Healy Design: Okay, so I suppose I was just looking at AI. taking over more, this is before the backlash, but taking over Danielle: Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: more and more jobs. I love technology, I wouldn't have a business without technology. I absolutely embrace it. AI is magnificent in research, in compiling information. It really has its uses. But when it starts to impinge on creativity, that's... really bodes me because in 30 years and beyond before that I worked with so many brilliant creative people who bring so much to us and even if you, I hate to say the covert word, but going back to that, what kept us all busy during that was the book writers, the people who made Netflix series, artists, musicians, the creative people. That's what we turned to and that's what got us through a lot of that. To see it being devalued hugely, just really, really, just, and actually I'm a very placid person and I very rarely get riled about something, but that was, really killed me because I could see people suffering because of it. And because I've had the absolute privilege of working at what I love all my life and earning my living from it. I just felt that, you know, is there anybody standing up for these people who are out there, including me as a designer, and Danielle: Mm. Una Healy Design: I definitely have seen work vanish from my business. And I thought maybe we should mark our work, and not even not be anti-AI, but be, hey, my work was created by a human. It has more value. So I'd love to say that I spent months working on that, but I just woke up one morning and go, right, that's it. Danielle: Ha ha ha. Una Healy Design: I'm just going to put it out there. And if it starts to take off brilliant, I really wanted a symbol that was very strong, very simple, and every single person's hand print is unique. And the work humans do in their creative field is unique. So that's where the brand mark came from, was a high, putting my hand up, my work is unique. So I was here in work and one of my colleagues was here as well. I woke up with the idea in my head and I... very unusual for me. I generally sketch out everything but I didn't do it with this. Straight to the computer I made the symbol and he made a couple of suggestions, tweaked the logo and I said okay that's it ready to go and I thought I'll make an Instagram page and a web page. explaining that this mark can be downloaded for free by anybody in the creative industries who uses their own hearts, brains, minds to Danielle: Mm. Una Healy Design: create that work. So there's various different marks. created using human ingenuity, designed using composed, written, illustrated. So there's a mark there for everybody. if there's anything I haven't got there, encourage people to come to me. And I'm very happy to make up a mark specifically for their work. And so it literally just starts to take off. And I would get a lot of contact from people. And they're really hurt by AI and illustrators in particular. Danielle: Mm. Una Healy Design: which is not depressing because to be honest AI, the illustrator work is very very weak and it's generic and it's all the same and what has been mind-blowing for me is that the people who have contacted me and they say they download the mark, the level of creativity like I get such a kick from looking at the Instagram page which is highlighting these brilliant brilliant people. and so many different types of creativity. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: Things I haven't even heard of like dinosaur model makers. Brilliant. They're brilliant sock designers. And this is a apart Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: from the brilliant painters, fashion designers, jewellers. The writer's Liz Nugent was an early adopter of the mark and I'm a huge fan of her work. So when I see my logo on her website, that, you know. That means it's this whole community coming together and marking their work. And until the law has caught up with what's happening, we need to have something to say, to brand what we do. Danielle: Yeah. And you say there that you've noticed some work kind of falling off from, you know, i from the last while and perhaps it's due to AI. Una Healy Design: Yeah. Danielle: And I've heard similar stories myself. And I mean, even on this podcast, we've spoken about it with several of the guests. And, you know, some are artfully using AI to speed up their workflow and to kind of manage data. And then that's great, you know. But then others, others Una Healy Design: yeah. Brilliant. Danielle: are actually telling me that they have clients that they've had for a long number of years, and the clients are are turning to AI themselves and then sending the AI output. to the designer to tell them and Una Healy Design: So, yeah. Danielle: ask them to make it either more on brand or given that AI only produces like a PNG file, we need a vector of this. So you need to turn this, Una Healy Design: Yeah. Danielle: you know, so they're actually turning the tables entirely, you know, and the machine is creating the work, which they see as a baseline for okay or whatever, you know, suitability, and then sending it to to Una Healy Design: Bye bye. Danielle: be tweaked by a designer. And I think that's A horror a a horror show waiting. You know, that that's just awful. Una Healy Design: It's dreadful. It's so depressing because you sort of think, well, what did you contact me for? I'm a designer. And I Danielle: Yeah, yeah. Una Healy Design: get that a lot. And in particular from new clients. they're going, so this Danielle: Really? Una Healy Design: is what I've done. I did three mock-ups of the logo. And you're going, OK, so that's just a picture of a shoe set. know. Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: It is really depressing. You're like, what do want me to do with these? I really like the second one. Can you expand on it? you're going, it's awful. So Danielle: Yeah, yeah. Una Healy Design: I'm trying not to, I just say, maybe I'm wrong. I don't know, but I don't want to do that. or often you'll get feedback that you know has been written by AI. And yes, it's great for gathering your thoughts and thinking, well, you're the human behind your business. I want to talk to you. And it's not whether you like a logo or not. Is it telling the right story? Is it working for your brand? So there's so much more to branding, that whole strategy behind it, which AI Danielle: Mm. Una Healy Design: isn't doing. Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: taking everything to account, unlike for humans, so there's nuances and things that algorithms can't get. However, it is happening at the moment. I don't know what's going on top. There is a ferocious backlash about AI produced posters and then Danielle: Yes, yeah, yeah. Una Healy Design: you say we're not going to use that. So the more people stand up and say, look, you know, if that's, it took you 10 minutes to make that, I'm not interested in your business. To me it shows a lack of care. Danielle: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that that point on feedback, I I I really feel so strongly I'll use this this episode as a plea to designers that are working now. Like I wonder how protected designers actually are. So if you send your work to a client for feedback from a human, from the client But they're feeding it into AI to get feedback, to give it back to the designer. is the designer aware that their work is feeding AI? And do they have a clause to protect themselves to say, you may not feed my work into an AI to in order to get feedback? You know, and I wonder, Una Healy Design: Yeah. Danielle: are designers actually arming themselves properly now? And if they are not, I really feel like in as part of your terms of service or your contract, it should be clearly spelt out that you may not feed my work into AI to train the models. Do you know what I mean? I really feel that so so strongly. Yeah. Yeah. Una Healy Design: Absolutely. yeah, I completely agree with you. It's probably a naivety on the part of designers, but I mean, and I would be very familiar with AI different models because it's my business to know what's going on and how it will affect my business. But I know that if you send a PDF to a client and it has the iterations of logos or here's this design, here's the explanation. Any of those AI models will go a feedback on that and then go, would you like me to design or to tweak that logo? So they're actually not just learning from it. They're stealing it and changing it. And maybe the client, you know, this. A lot of businesses, the bottom line is what shows up in the balance sheet. So money is hugely important. And a lot of businesses will go, look, I can get that done for cheaper. I'm nearly there. so I totally agree. When you're sending out any designers, any designers out there, when you're sending out your terms and conditions, you should absolutely say, do not feed this work into any AI models. Danielle: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Una Healy Design: and protect yourself. It's a really simple thing to do, but it should be done. Danielle: Yeah. And I even think that as you mentioned there, the whole issue of copyright, I think that's the the most kind of unresolved part of of AI, like copyright infringement and IP safety, you know. because like I suppose the philosophical question underneath that legal question of copyright is like if if a system or a model is being trained with decades of human creativity. Who owns it? Do they own it? They don't own it. You know, where does the ownership lie? Where Una Healy Design: Nothing done. Danielle: is the financial, the the the moral, the structural ownership? And like, you know, the people that make it possible, the actual designers, are just being cut out from the conversation. And I I I think we really need to hurry up and get serious about the the regulations around the that use, Una Healy Design: Yes. Danielle: that back end use of AI as you know. Una Healy Design: Yeah. Danielle: those those models being trained without our knowledge, you know. so I yeah, I think there's there's a a lot of of work to be done and it's great to see your mark as a as you know as a symbol of human ingenuity and I do love the ingenuity. I lo I love the use of that word. I think it really is Una Healy Design: good. Good. Danielle: it really lands well, you know. It's you know it's not human craft or human design or creativity. Una Healy Design: No. Danielle: It's i it's ingenuity which actually encompasses so many more things. So I I really yeah. Una Healy Design: Absolutely. we wouldn't have managed to get where we are today if there hadn't been ingenuity. And even from the early days inventing the wheel, genius. Off you Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: go from there. No, it was to encompass absolutely everything that as humans we do, we're creating. You're pulling life experiences. You've skill there. And then you have an ability to communicate that. It's powerful. And it's all coming from like, souls, hearts, brains, everything hands, and we're made to communicate. Humans are made to communicate and it's so important that we keep that. And the other thing that would worry me apart from that legal aspect, which is hugely worrying, are we going to lose the ability to think for the simple things? Like so if... I know a lot of younger people are using, they get AI to write short paragraphs. That's losing a skill. It's sort of like you're not using that part of your brain because yes, it's quicker. I'll just get AI to do that. And hands up, I'm very guilty about myself when I'm pushed for time and if I have an email to answer that, it's a tricky one. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Una Healy Design: I will definitely run my thoughts through it, but then I'll reword it. It's great for clear thinking, but I would be so worried that it becomes such a handy tool for, I'll get to do that. Do we lose those skills? Because they're crucial to us. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely they are. And you know, when people start to hand over the reins, they they l start to really start to dull their skills very quickly because Una Healy Design: They do. Danielle: I I I always remember I loved English in in school, English literature, and you know, we were constantly writing, writing essays, you know, writing by hand with the biro your hand would be sore. Una Healy Design: Yeah. Danielle: but y you were developing an a an ability to critically examine things, to to work on grammar, sentence structure, all these different types of things. And if your your AI is doing that for you, and you can read it, it's so it's so plain to read at the moment when you s read an article or post that is the by AI, you know, it it's so obvious, like, but Una Healy Design: Yeah. Cheers. Yes. Danielle: When you're talking to people who use AI, they actually they haven't formed that opinion. So the thing they've written doesn't really feel like it doesn't ring tr ring true because that wasn't an opinion that formed Una Healy Design: You know, you're right, it's a little... Danielle: via lots of steps. It just is Una Healy Design: Yeah. Danielle: s you know, a load of clever prompts kind of putting putting something together. Yeah. Una Healy Design: Yeah, and then you run the risk of somebody else the other side of the world is writing the exact same thing. So Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: it's just boring really. Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Mm mm. Una Healy Design: And I would hope that it's almost like when we were in school and we were writing and there were no iPads, there's none of that. That fine motor skills, connections to the brain, they're all hugely important for us to function as humans. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Una Healy Design: I see now in places they are bringing back handwriting for children. No iPads. They have to write. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Mm. And it's it's it's such an important skill, as you say, for the fine motor skills, but for the longevity of your brain. And I know you've done an incredible project for the for dementia sufferers. but Una Healy Design: yes. Danielle: I mean that hand eye coordination is probably the first test they give. people in terms of assessing whether or not they have dementia. You know, can they write the numbers on a clock is the first thing they do and and if that's a struggle, that's Una Healy Design: Yeah. Danielle: a real indicator of potential dementia. But like, you know, n not not ever starting by doing that in the first place, never not ever putting pen to paper, not ever crafting or writing or, you know, even drawing, it it Una Healy Design: Yeah. Danielle: is hugely detrimental to the brain's activity. Una Healy Design: Absolutely. there is, that is, I think that's been recognised more now Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: and that children are being required to do that. My niece Danielle: Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: is a primary school teacher and she was saying that the children are so, yeah, I can do that on my iPad or they'll come up with ideas and bring in screenshots and things and she's absolutely put everything away. Today is art day. And Danielle: Mm. Yeah. Una Healy Design: they actually, when they get into it, Danielle: Hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Una Healy Design: They love us, you know, and... I know AI is very new so we're probably having teething problems with it but there is a lot to be sorted out and as I say in the meantime we certainly need to protect ourselves and absolutely turn some conditions put that in any work that you're sending out but also that mark is there download it actually Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: have a look at the page and see the level of creativity like it's it's mind-blowing Danielle: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And we'll we'll put a link up for the the the the downloads Una Healy Design: thank you. Danielle: to make sure everyone everyone starts signposting that their work is indeed human and not made by machine. But Una Healy Design: Yes. Yeah. Good. Danielle: you might discuss maybe then that project, the dementia project that you worked on that won the Universal Design Award. Una Healy Design: yeah, that was the cherry on the top of the cake there. was asked to, Dublin City Council wanted to bring in a project where people with dementia could go shopping and because they were finding it very tricky. So a lot of people with dementia would go with their helpers or their minders or their families. But you have bright lights, you very loud music, you people bustling around and for some people with dementia that was causing huge problems for them. And so it was a project that was dear to my heart because my sisters-in-law run the Forget Me Not Choir and that is for people with dementia and my mother-in-law had dementia in her later years and Singing is known, a music dance movement like that is excellent for people with dementia. They remember all the words of songs, which is powerful. Wherever that is coming from in the brain, it's a very powerful thing. So in order to work on this project, I came away with a brief. lot of the people who had dementia in general, they are older people, suppose. Getting the messages would have been a phrase used back then when you were going to the shops and you get the messages. So that was a double meaning for that. you you go to the shops and get the messages, but are we getting the messages that you need a little bit more support in our community? So the whole brand came from that, was that we are holding these people's hands and I used a shopping basket and the linking of fingers to make the mark for that. It had to be very easily understood, so there was signage put up around the shop. Things like there's a seat here, so was like a literally an infographic of a seat and an arrow. Colours chosen had to be very high contrast, so it was all using the basics of universal design and it was for people who might have trouble reading as well, so there was a lot going on there. So the whole project just got bigger as it went along and I went and spoke to a lot of the makers and forgot me not to get me not to fire. about the use of the logo and the feedback was generally good but some was totally off the mark. It was very good and without that input the project wouldn't have grown like it did so it actually it meant that certain shops would have one afternoon a week where people with dementia could go in and there'd be softer music, the lights a little bit lower. Their favourite products, which would have been the older products, suppose, their tea and their biscuits, might put somewhere where they didn't have to walk around the whole shop. So it was a very beautiful project to work on. I submitted it into the IDI awards, so was so pleased that that project won an award for Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: that. the whole thing was just absolutely lovely to work on it. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, it's great and and it's really lovely to see universal design particularly for older people, you know, being carried through to something that's very tangible for them and you know, and and making their their lives easier, you know, for things like shopping or getting the messages as you say. so it's it's really yeah, it's really it's really important I suppose that we kinda continue to look at universal design as, you know, not the exception but it as an embedded way of designing rather than Una Healy Design: Absolutely. Danielle: an an add on and I think that this project Una Healy Design: yes. Danielle: focused on that, you know, from from the outset. So yeah. Una Healy Design: Yeah and it had to from its very core because it wasn't Danielle: Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: going to work if I mean even the toilet signs in the shop So was a lot, so the symbol became the basket or the support in the hands, the staff would have t-shirts on so they knew the symbol to ask that person or they'd have a badge on it. They were very simple things. But one of the nice things we did was, you've heard the chairs they sit down, had a cushion with the logo on it. Just to, there were little touches. But yes, it had to be very user friendly, those universal design principles. had to be applied from the beginning or it would never have worked. Danielle: Yeah, absolutely. And then I suppose with then from there you've kind of looked at lots of other projects, but one of the the the kind of really important projects that you worked on as well was a cervical check project. So you might just explain Una Healy Design: yes, yeah. Danielle: because we have a a number of listeners and viewers from outside of Ireland and you might just explain the importance and the gravity of that particular campaign. Una Healy Design: the Mary Keating Foundation got in touch with me. around the time where, so women in Ireland are offered free cervical smear tests to check that there's no cancer and because if it's caught at a very early stage it can be eradicated very quickly and very easily. women would go for that every three to five years and at a certain stage during this programme the results were misread. So in total, 221 women were affected by this. That came out gradually over time. Those women's results, had they been read correctly, would be alive today. So the whole thing is you put your trust in people, go and you're good, you go and get all your tests and things are missed. And in particular, Vicky Phelan a huge... did Trojan work for this and sadly passed away from the misdiagnosis. But herself and Stephen Teap whose wife Irene also passed away, and Lorraine, three of them got together and they worked with the Mary Keating Foundation and they wanted to pull together an organisation. to have their branding ready so that everybody knew what this was about. they wanted the government to hear them. They wanted this to be fixed and to be assured it would never happen again. So the important thing when we all met up, the important thing was there's so many charities out there where people lose track of numbers. it's, you know, think, yeah, whole lot of people. That happened to a whole lot of people. That Danielle: Mm. Yeah. Una Healy Design: happened to thousands of people. That happened to hundreds. reading. real. So Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: that was where the name came from. There were 221 women at that particular time who were misdiagnosed and that changed their lives and the lives of their families. The plus came because they weren't sure whether if there were going to be more. And the whole logo was designed around it was to be a very caring thing. By turning one of the twos backwards, we showed the shape of the uterus and it's also a heart shape to show the care that was there. This was a project that I was very moved by it. So I think when you're invested like that in something, you produce better work. And actually, I remember the first meeting I had with them was in the Ashland Hotel, and my husband had driven me up there. I was so, I was presenting the logo, I so moved by the people that I met there. came out and Michael was waiting for me in the car and he goes, I thought you're really upset, did you not get the job? I thought I did. I was just so upset at the horror of what could have been avoided and by the people I was so, god they're mighty people who were behind this. So it was a project that I loved working on, grew. There was a lot of social media around that. There was a lot of infographics again and the website. So that was a very huge partner. have come along in leaps and bounds and they've made great progress. So that's always great to see. Sadly, people died and... Hopefully this campaign will stop something like that happening in this area or in other areas where your trust is put in the hands of big laboratories that don't have the same stringent rules around them as we should have. Danielle: And do you think it being so emotive changed what you produced or how you designed or the did it change the work that you were so connected to it and you know, you're so empathetic of the people involved? Did that do you think that changed w how you designed? Una Healy Design: I think so and purely from the fact that it wasn't sitting at a desk and working on a few logos, it was in my head all the time. often, and I think with really strong design, it affects you that much. It's in your head, but you could be out walking and Danielle: Mm. Una Healy Design: the whole project just comes to you. It's like the light bulb moment again. That was one of those projects. that was one of the lightbulb moments and I couldn't get the ideas out quick enough because it was with me all of the time and in particular meeting the people behind that and seeing what they went through. You want to just absolutely give it your completely best shot and you do that I think because you sort of are living that with them. Yeah and I'd like to think that that's That's how good design happens. It's Danielle: Mm. Una Healy Design: so important in a particular project. Danielle: And I think, yeah, when, you know, d design at its best, it really can help make change or, you know, i it is empathetic of the people who are involved in the campaign, the project, whatever it might be. and it does it it really kinda I suppose makes you really see the the value of design, you know, and the value of the work that that designers do. particularly when it's addressing these really difficult difficult problems and highlighting, you know, issues that we've had in our healthcare system. so it is it's very, you know, it's a delicate and fine balancing act, but it's they're so important though. but the I suppose just to talk about your studio over, over 30 years you've worked with such a wide range of clients you know and and and in terms of the actual clients themselves Una Healy Design: you Danielle: so you've got the individuals the startups the large corporates and then you know these these companies in between and these organisations in in between you know how do you manage that how do you manage kind of switching gears almost between the different types of organisations that you operate within Una Healy Design: Yeah, so. Yeah, that can be tricky sometimes depending on the workload in. The key to it all is really good organisation and I mightn't be organised at home but when I come in here Danielle: Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: it is lists. I know exactly what I'm doing and when I'm doing it so I know how many hours it's going into one project and everything goes into that. Then you stop, have your break, walk away from it and you come back and you start to work on another project and often as I'm sure you know yourself as a designer, there's no nine to five. Because Danielle: No. Una Healy Design: you're thinking a lot or you might go back to something late at night. All I can say is to me every project is a brand new project. mean this Danielle: Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: is so good about this career, it is never boring. There's always something Danielle: Well hustle said. Una Healy Design: new. equally the big corporates are in, they get spotlight on them, new businesses come. in here they're just so bursting with enthusiasm like you Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: know you want to to run with them doing everything and when you see Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: them see their business take a visual form that's coldest you know when when you know you're helping them with their dream so there's so many different sides to this business it is all I can say it's very boring it's lists Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: I'm going in here, I have a meeting with the HSE, I'm over here now and I've got somebody who's starting up a foundation to put oysters back into Dublin Bay. So you just change and that suits me because I like what you learn as a graphic designer. I've become an expert in many varied areas but Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: it... You do take it job by job. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: I mean at the height, just pre-COVID when it was insanely busy, I would have had 20 projects on the go. At that point then I would absolutely, I'd design the look of something but I'd bring freelancers in and Danielle: Mm. Una Healy Design: outsource that and manage a job or I would like, I work with a web developer, Anna Designs, she's brilliant. Like I used to do the web design because I love the brainy bit of that and learning new stuff. Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: but now Anna is like I'll design the website and takes care of it. But what I do love as well about this whole studio and 30 years of it is learning new things because Danielle: Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: you have to do that because it might get a little stale. Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: It's really important to always learn and to keep reading the amount of design books and cleaning Danielle: Mm. Una Healy Design: out other designers' work. You know, going to a restaurant and like literally going, I wouldn't... I could bonkers, I'm sure most graphic designers do that, it's, yeah, is very, the studio is run rigidly, I would say. Apart from then, you know, there's a curve ball thrown in and the printer wants something back, so that can delay. But in general, It's all very manageable when you do your list. And as I say, every day is different. And every job is different, which is great. Danielle: And how do you find competing for work? You know, so you obviously you mentioned at the at the start, you had a client that was with you for like twenty five years. but how do you find like, you know, getting new work in are you competing against other studios and other designers often, frequently, or is it referral work that's kind of coming your way? Una Healy Design: In the beginning it was all referral work, then it was Google. Google rankings are hugely important to my business. That's what brings in the workier jobs. referral is huge as well still if you work with a big government agency and there's different departments they're only too delighted to hear you can work with her she got that done it was grand and so it's I don't even call it I don't compete I tend I used to be on e-tenders and I pitch like that I think a lot of people are very disillusioned with that at the moment, so I don't do those big pitches. And you notice how much work goes into a presentation and then clients are now looking for, you send us three samples of what you would do for us? thinking, no, I don't work for free unless I choose for a charity. Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: And it is that joke, know, if you were going to a restaurant, could I try three of your delicious dishes before I actually Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: choose the one I'm going to buy from you. So I don't really, I suppose with my business, and I would work, we've had, a group of designers who are all working on our, have our own individual studios, we meet up every so often and we basically complain a lot. But it's great for bouncing ideas around and we all have completely different clients and so we've never. compete against each other. In fact, what we do is we refer other people. So that's a really important thing for anybody working on their own. Have a group that you can bounce ideas off, even like a WhatsApp group. Does anybody know how to do this in InDesign? Something simple like that. so I wouldn't, as I say, the business is very well established now. I don't really, I have a set amount of clients who I do work for. Often you lose clients along the way, that's just the nature of the business. Sometimes you meet clients who you know you shouldn't be working with because there's just no rapport. That's fine too, that's like in life. And then when they go, it's it's opened up a window for something else to come in that is a better match. Danielle: And and those those clients that maybe you shouldn't work with, like, you know, the kind of the ones that the ones with no names Una Healy Design: I can't name names. Danielle: But like, you know, sometimes that happens, you know, a a client job starts and it just doesn't go anywhere for a variety of different reasons. you know, and they just like, you know, they kind of just sit on a shelf somewhere and and it kind of never never never happens. Una Healy Design: Yeah. Danielle: do you have much experience of of those? Una Healy Design: yes, I do, I do because for various different reasons sometimes a business can just get stuck and it goes down the tubes before anything's done and sometimes Danielle: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: you just sometimes people know what they want and it's in their head and you're trying to extract this or they change their minds and they're very frustrating jobs and I think the longer you're in the business the better you get at weeding those out very quickly. So one red flag for me is if somebody comes to me looking for a job and they go, we had this with three designers and they were all terrible. They go, no, they're not, they're not. So you Danielle: yeah. Yeah. Una Healy Design: know then that's a communication problem. And it is like life, most people are great, there's no problems, but sometimes you come across characters and they go, I would like to be standing beside a bus stop beside them. Danielle: Okay. Una Healy Design: It's fine and I think sometimes it's good to call that early and Danielle: Yeah, yeah. Una Healy Design: you know cut your losses and go. The other side of it is sometimes depending on how your figures are for the month if you need to finish a job and the client doesn't take your advice. on a particular thing, you think, here, look, I'll finish, I'll do what they want, they'll pay me and as I say, that work goes into the drawer of shame. Never speak Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: about it again. You know, those things happen, so I must declutter my drawer of shame soon. Danielle: Yeah, exactly. So you know, sometimes the fit isn't there and th what's the the saying, the the nicer version of the saying, if you meet three idiots before eleven o'clock in the morning, it's not them, it's you. You know. Yeah, it so is. Yeah, no, definitely. Una Healy Design: Yeah, there you go. That's very true though, it is because it is and most of our job, like we often say in my group, there's a huge amount of psychology around it Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: and understanding people, understanding what they want their branding to do and maybe Danielle: Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: they have a fixed idea in their head and you're trying to, with the toddlers. Danielle: huh, yeah. Una Healy Design: I'm not insulting my clients there. Just sometimes if it's a tricky one and you're trying to move them towards something and then they see it and they go, my god, this is great. And then they see the results from it and that's brilliant. That's brilliant. Danielle: Mm, yeah. And yeah, it is about that trust, I suppose, building that trust that they will allow you to maybe present and show them a direction that might not have been what they wanted or what was in their head. Yeah. Mm, absolutely. Una Healy Design: Yeah? Yeah. Danielle: So then is there is there one one that got away? Is there a one that completely got away that you'd like? Una Healy Design: Yeah, there was one that I really enjoyed working on and it was for a pasta company. I don't know whether I should say their names. I don't even know where they are now. It was a good few years. I just, well, I love pasta. And I thought I really have to go Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: to the restaurant and it out. And it was when I had loads of doodles. So anytime generally when I get work in, I draw, I doodle. and they are scribbles to other people and I think I sent an infographic for the HSE but my note taking is so bad, I know the idea but sometimes I look at my notes and I'm like what is that? Until you untangle it. But just Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: to go back, yeah I did, I never got that. did sketches for that job for the pasta restaurant and... they were delayed somewhere along the way and then it was launched and I think they did their own branding, I'm guessing. Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: But anyway, that was one I would have liked to have done. But often, over 30 years, there are things that you use that you think, I would have really liked that. But then something else happens very quickly. So you don't dwell on any of those things. Danielle: I think you're right. You kinda develop a thick skin and go, it's so you know, it's the roll of the dice. Some things work, some things don't. Just move on. Yeah. And don't and don't be too precious. Una Healy Design: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And you can't, you can't hold, you can't take things personally either because I think even going through the whole art college thing, you get used to being critiqued a lot and Danielle: Mm. Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: you can't take it all personally because it's like some people like wearing red jumpers, some people like wearing blue jumpers and Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: they'll never switch jumpers. It's fine. You just don't, you learn to take things, you know. Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: not personally because it isn't Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: a personal thing anyway. Danielle: And if you were to start out again today, what would you you know, or or someone who d is thinking about starting out today, what would you like, what advice would you give them? Una Healy Design: So do you know I get asked that a lot and I get a lot of emails from kids coming out of college or thinking of going into it and I love talking to them because the first thing I'd say is if you want to be a graphic designer it's not because you just like doing designs because really what you're doing is communicating very important messages for people so you have to like working with people. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: The design part of it is, it can be hard work, can be long hours, it can be last minute work, it be very stressful. So I would say don't get put off initially if you find it can be very overwhelming. Give it a chance. If you can train in a studio, great. That's brilliant training. But actually a lot of the people that I know just went, I think I'll start. I'll just do this myself. I have one client. Sometimes that's all you need. And what I would say to them is say yes to everything. Even if they think, I don't, and women again are particularly bad at this, they tend to go, well I'll wait until I've done this, I'll do that course, I'll check that out. And I think, mine in general, I'm sure I can do that. Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: So I'd say, yeah, just say yes and then Google it. Or ask Danielle: Exactly. Una Healy Design: people, you will get it done and then a sense of satisfaction from that is powerful. So don't turn things down because think, I might not be able to do that. Unless you absolutely know that no I can't do animation, you know, I'm not a videographer, you know, that makes sense. But Danielle: Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Una Healy Design: if you think you're a little bit iffy about it, just try it. Danielle: It's so true, isn't it? Having that confidence to say, you know, I'll probably be able to be able to get over this and be able to figure it out. and Una Healy Design: Yeah. Danielle: women do unfortunately lack that confidence to say, I'll figure it out, I'll be able to do it. Una Healy Design: Yeah. Danielle: where where men for a variety of reasons just go for it, you know, and just yeah. And i and even with I've Una Healy Design: Yeah, yeah. Danielle: I've heard that with with job descriptions, where there's a lot of roles and responsibilities listed on on a a particular job, more men will go for it 'cause they'll just Yeah, yeah, I can do all that kind of stuff. Whereas women Una Healy Design: Yeah. Danielle: will critically evaluate each line and go, out of those ten things I can't do those two, so maybe it's not for me. Yeah, yeah. We're hard Una Healy Design: Yeah, so I'm not on. It's mad, isn't it? Danielle: we're a bit hard on ourselves, yeah. Una Healy Design: I think so and I don't even know why that is because I've had people come in here and show me their portfolios. They're brilliant. And I thought, so what's stopping you? Well, Danielle: Mm. Yeah. Una Healy Design: I don't know how to talk to clients. And I go, but you're talking to me. And if you can talk to people, you can Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: talk to clients and go in with your list questions and work. You know, there's so much help out there. I'm Danielle: Okay. Una Healy Design: not really sure why why women aren't so good at that at home. Maybe we'll get better at it. Danielle: Yeah, exactly. Una Healy Design: But really, only good things come when you jump. You might be scared, but when you land on the other side, Danielle: It Una Healy Design: you've achieved something new. That's great. Danielle: Yeah. And I think it's important for women like yourselves who have the experience and the the background to do that, to to take those calls, to talk to to the younger generations and to be and be a mentor and all the things the the wonderful advocacy that you Una Healy Design: yeah, absolutely. I know, yeah. Yeah. Danielle: do for the industry as well. I think it's really, really important. Una Healy Design: yeah, I think it's hugely important because we were all back there and hadn't a clue. And Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Una Healy Design: maybe somewhere, somebody along the way just gave you that little one word of encouragement and thought, Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: I can do this. Danielle: Exactly, exactly. Una Healy Design: And that's powerful stuff. And you have Danielle: Mm. Una Healy Design: to encourage the new talent. Ireland in particular is such a rich, creative land. And the design work that's produced here is brilliant. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: we need new young people coming in. So for the sake of a half an hour chat with somebody out Danielle: Mm. Una Healy Design: of your day, where you both learn things. You both learn so much from each other. think that's a really worthwhile thing for us all to be doing. Danielle: Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with you. So because the podcast is called Rough Drafts, we kind of always end with w wanting to know what is your next rough draft or what have you got in maybe in the in the drawer of shame or un in the next drawer of the draw drawer the drawer of inspiration perhaps. is there something that you ha l would love to tackle in the future? It might be a client, a type of work, a type of project, a type of process. That you'd like to tackle that maybe you haven't had the chance to do it yet. Una Healy Design: Well after 30 years Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: I've done a lot of the things I really wanted to do. At the moment, Hi from a Human is my absolute baby. I Danielle: Mm. Una Healy Design: love it. So I'm seeing where that's going. I'm hoping to set up some meetings with people who can maybe move that forward a bit. They're sort of in the pipeline at the moment. So that's really, that's the first thing I think of in the morning. Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: So that is my big thing at the moment, the drawer of shame! I don't want to talk about the drawer of shame That's closed. Danielle: But what would it take? What would it take what would the next steps look like for Hi for a Human? So if everyone kinda you know, everyone I identifies the the mark of that they they have, you know, that they have on your site and download it and add it to their their work, like what is the next step? What is the, you know, what would the trajectory be? Una Healy Design: Well, what I would love is if it was like a fair trade mark where the consumer at the end of Danielle: Mm. Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: the day sees that mark and goes, Danielle made that, Una made that, Danielle: Yes, yeah. Una Healy Design: know, somebody made that. And that's their work. And actually one of the thrills I got was the illustrator Chris Judge, he does the Daily Cloud images. Danielle: Mm. Una Healy Design: I was in the National Gallery and I needed to buy a birthday card and I thought, there's those cloud cards. and when I turned it around the Hi from a Human mark was on the back. So to me, I thought, that's great, that's getting it out there. So somebody's got to go, what's that? Danielle: Again. Una Healy Design: So that the consumer knows what they're buying. Danielle: Yes. Una Healy Design: so I think that needs to be built on, I think simple things like talking to the government and saying, all of the departments in the civil service, can you stop with the AI graphics? And Danielle: Hello, yeah. Una Healy Design: can you get a designer to do? to do this work and even when I, this, I've gone back to this again but the backlash about AI now where venues aren't taking posters, the more people talk about that, the better. But in the absence of that where we have the mark and it's on things and people go, that Danielle: Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: is, it has more value. So to me, that's where I see it going and it is going and... It was one of, as I say, I woke up with the idea and thought, just do it now, because don't think about it too much, because in a month's time, you'll be too busy with something else and you won't do it. And it's been such a joy. like, I love going to any craft fairs or anything that's on and I go along and I'll go, because I know some of those people are featured on the page and I go, hi, I'm Una. Hi from a human. my God! So that's my new name now. Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: But it's really lovely to see that and the need in people to want to have that recognised. that's sort of what I'm thinking about now. I've other jobs that do pay me. So they're lovely. I have a lovely branding job in the firm that I can't wait now to get stuck into. And then a couple of conferences I'm working on. And then I do a lot of work for St. Francis Hospice So I would do their newsletters. And that's all. love doing that. They're the main jobs that I can think of that are in at the moment. But as I say, they're all so different Danielle: Mm Una Healy Design: and all equally bring something to me. So again, I'm so lucky to have been able to do this for my whole career. It Danielle: Mm. Mm-hmm. Una Healy Design: is a privilege to be able to work somewhere where you love what you do. Danielle: Yeah, no, it is definitely a privilege and to have that longevity of career as well is is also a privilege, you know, and being able to continue for thirty years working in creativity. and and you can tell from how you speak about the clients that you work with and the topics that you cover that it really fills your cup, you know, that it really you know, you you're you're you're Una Healy Design: Yeah. Danielle: you're you can see that by how you how you speak about the project. So Una Healy Design: Thank you. Danielle: So Une, thank you so much for this conversation. It's been lovely. Una Healy Design: 8, 5... Danielle: I'm going to post links to how how you get your mark from Hi from a Human. And Una Healy Design: Thank Danielle: everyone should have this on their website, on on everywhere that you can place it and we should really start to push that forward that we insist on this as a mark of human ingenuity. Una Healy Design: Absolutely, absolutely. And listen, Danielle it's been an absolute pleasure talking to another designer Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: because it's great. There is a great design community in Ireland. so thank Danielle: Yeah. Una Healy Design: you very much for inviting me to your podcast. It's been a pleasure. Danielle: Thank you.