Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / The Smashing Pumpkins Story: From Chicago Roots to Alt-Rock Dominance (1988–1994) [Episode 369]

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The Smashing Pumpkins Story: From Chicago Roots to Alt-Rock Dominance (1988–1994) [Episode 369] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Billy has said that during the recording of Sime's Dream,
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: he felt enormous pressure because the band's future seemed to
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: depend on the album succeeding.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: After Nirvana Nevermind comes out, suddenly alternative rock just totally explodes,
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: and then you have the huge success of Pearl Jam
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: ten Soundgarden, nine Nails creates a very big buzz. He
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: put a lot of pressure on himself.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: We're totally bummed rock and roll.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'll leave you. You're reading. Little Hands says
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: it's time to rock and roll, Rock, Roll up.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: We are totally booked. Welcome back to Booked on Rock,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: the podcast for those about to read and rock. Emeric Sentich.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Before we welcome our guest, just want to let you know,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: listeners and viewers, you can get fifteen percent off classic
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: rock merchandise at old glory dot com. Just use the
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: code Booked on Rock and you'll get fifteen percent off
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: a lot of great stuff. There the links in the
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: show notes where you can go to Booked on Rock
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: dot com and look for the my Deals tab. All right,
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: so now onto our guests. A turning guests. I think
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: this is number fourteen. I got to do an official count,
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: but I know it's it's I think you're tied with
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Martin pop off. Greg Prato returns, thank you, thank you, Eric,
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: I'm outstanding. I'm sorry.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: I always ask you are. Do you have your David
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  Speaker 2: Lee Roth Butler's chaps on?
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: I do good. That's the problem with this camera. It
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: doesn't have the whole Trust me, they're there. I'm going
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: to see Dave when he comes to Connecticut May thirty. First,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna go to see.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: My cousin saw him a year ago and said it
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: was a very fun show.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Cool diamond Dave. Yes. Yes. And then the fifty Pine
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  Speaker 1: fifty deluxe edition comes out this week.
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  Speaker 2: Yep.
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  Speaker 1: So looking forward to that. But we're talking about Smashing
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Pumpkins today. Your brand new book is titled I Am One,
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  Speaker 1: The Smashing Pumpkins Story nineteen eighty eight to nineteen ninety four.
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  Speaker 1: So tell us what inspired you to focus specifically on
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  Speaker 1: the year's nineteen eighty eight to nineteen ninety four rather
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: than their entire career because they are still an active
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  Speaker 1: band today. There's a current lineup, right.
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  Speaker 2: Yep, yep, indeed there is. Yeah, I think this book
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  Speaker 2: kind of came away. It was a little bit of
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  Speaker 2: like a hangover from my last book, which was the
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  Speaker 2: alternative for the Masses book, which I of course was
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  Speaker 2: on your show talking about, which was about the nineties
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  Speaker 2: alternative movement, and that definitely included Smashing Pumpkins. They were
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  Speaker 2: one of the top bands of that era. So I
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  Speaker 2: guess maybe just from doing that book, I listened to
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  Speaker 2: a lot more Smashing Pumpkins, and yeah, I you know,
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  Speaker 2: it's weird, like with most bands. I don't know if
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  Speaker 2: I don't know if you're this way, Eric, but like
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  Speaker 2: with me, there's certain eras of bands that I usually favor,
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  Speaker 2: Like there's very few bands that I can listen from
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  Speaker 2: start to finish, Like Sound Garden is one band I
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  Speaker 2: could listen to all eras, and you know, I love
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  Speaker 2: them all. Queen is pretty close as well, Van Halen
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  Speaker 2: with David Lee Roth. I loved everything they ever did
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  Speaker 2: with David Lee Roth. But yeah, Smashing Pumpkins for me,
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  Speaker 2: really it's their first two albums, Gish and Siame's Dream,
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  Speaker 2: and also the Odds and Ends set called Pisces a Scariot.
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  Speaker 2: That's really my Smashing Pumpkins. That's definitely the era that
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  Speaker 2: I listened to the most the same money because then
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  Speaker 2: they went on to have their biggest success after that
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  Speaker 2: with the Melancholy album. But that was when I tune out.
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  Speaker 2: I was not a fan of that.
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  Speaker 1: It's almost like I'm looking into a mirror right now
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  Speaker 1: because it is exactly the same thing as me. Although
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  Speaker 1: the one big difference is Gish I did not listen to.
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  Speaker 1: I didn't know about. I had Simon's Dream to this day,
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  Speaker 1: I still listen to it and love it, but I
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  Speaker 1: never bought Gish. So reading your book, I was able
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  Speaker 1: to go and discover that album, and I didn't realize
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  Speaker 1: how great that is. Rhinoceros and so many great tracks
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  Speaker 1: on there. If you like Simmey's Dream, you're gonna like Gish.
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  Speaker 1: Billy Corgan's his direction where he wanted to go did
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  Speaker 1: start to change in ninety six with Melancholy. Yeah that
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  Speaker 1: you know, there's some good stuff on there. Nineteen seventy nine,
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  Speaker 1: I love there is some good stuff on there, but Yees.
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  Speaker 2: Singing style I just didn't like anymore. And the production
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  Speaker 2: I love, Butch Vigg's production on the first two Smashing
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  Speaker 2: Pumpkins albums. Then they moved to a gentleman named Flood
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  Speaker 2: and it was more of like a His background is
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  Speaker 2: more like electronic bands like nine in Schnails. I think
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  Speaker 2: he worked with like depeche Mode and those bands. And
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  Speaker 2: I talk about in the book like there are very
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  Speaker 2: few industrial or techno type rock albums that I've ever
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  Speaker 2: heard and said, wow, this is a great production. The
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  Speaker 2: only one I could really think of is the Downward
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  Speaker 2: Spiral from the band nine Schnails. That's a great production.
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  Speaker 2: But for me, Butch Vig, I love Butch Vigg's production.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: You know, everyone always talks about Nirvana Nevermind as it's
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  Speaker 2: definitely his most renowned album. But for me, his best
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  Speaker 2: production I think is the Siamese Dream album. That is
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  Speaker 2: a masterpiece from start to finish, song wise, performance wise,
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  Speaker 2: production wise, it has it all. That's definitely that's the
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  Speaker 2: peak of Smash Pumpkins for me.
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  Speaker 1: It's got a warm sound to it gets as well,
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  Speaker 1: but especially Sammy's Dream, It's just got a really warm
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  Speaker 1: sound to it, and it sounds like I say this
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  Speaker 1: so many times, but it feels like you're in the room.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: You know.
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  Speaker 2: Something else I had to make a point in this
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  Speaker 2: book the guitar sound that Billy Corgan was able to
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  Speaker 2: Get and also James the second guitarist James Eha I
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  Speaker 2: think is it's probably my one of my favorite rock
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  Speaker 2: guitar on a studio album sounds. Ever, now they use
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  Speaker 2: the it's called the Big Muff pedal, which was from
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  Speaker 2: the late sixties, I believe, or like early seventies, and
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  Speaker 2: it's a very fuzzy tone if you think of Blue Cheers,
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: Summertime Blues. I don't think that they used that pedal
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  Speaker 2: like that was before that pedal was around. But that's
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  Speaker 2: kind of like the fuzzy sound that that pedal creates.
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  Speaker 2: The same with I Want to Be Your Dog by
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  Speaker 2: the Stooges, it's a very fuzzed out, distorted sound. It's
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  Speaker 2: very warm sounding if you think about the eighties guitar
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  Speaker 2: tones as the eighties went along, guitar tones, you can't
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  Speaker 2: really think. I mean, although I like Metallic with Cliff Burton,
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  Speaker 2: did Metallic ever really have great guitar tones on their albums?
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  Speaker 2: I don't know it. Or like Megadeath, I obsolutely love
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  Speaker 2: the band Megadeath, but I can't really think of any
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  Speaker 2: of their albums really having like a great, warm, interesting guitar.
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  Speaker 1: Sound really, you know, maybe Ride the Lightning.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, all right, yeah, and you know what Kill
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  Speaker 2: Them All is kind of interesting because it's almost like
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  Speaker 2: a demo sound, so that's kind of an interesting sound
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  Speaker 2: as well. It's very in your face and you know,
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  Speaker 2: of course Master of Puppets is their all time great
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  Speaker 2: classic album. But I mean, if you listen to Injustice
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  Speaker 2: for All, that's one of the worst produced albums ever
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  Speaker 2: that it has like no bass and it's just pure tinmy.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I can't even listen to that album. But yeah,
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  Speaker 2: they're Smashing Pumpkins albums, Gish and especially Simon's Dream. I
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  Speaker 2: love the guitar sound. Billy Corg can surely be he should.
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  Speaker 2: We should all tip our cap to him for taking
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  Speaker 2: the time to getting a great, great guitar sound on
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  Speaker 2: on that album.
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  Speaker 1: He was influenced by Kevin Shield of My Bloody Valentine.
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  Speaker 2: He was, yeah, he was. He was also influenced by Queen,
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  Speaker 2: especially early Queen. He was a very big fan of Yes,
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  Speaker 2: so he had some very interesting influences.
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  Speaker 1: So you opened the Billy Corgan chapter, you note that
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  Speaker 1: he's been the one constant in the Smashing Pumpkins throughout
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  Speaker 1: all the lineup changes. To this day. And you describe
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  Speaker 1: his early childhood growing up in Chicago and surrounding Illinois
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  Speaker 1: towns as being marked by divorce, instability, bullying, and his
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  Speaker 1: mother's struggles with mental health. How much you think those
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  Speaker 1: early experiences shaped the emotional intensity that we hear in
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  Speaker 1: his songwriter and particularly on those first few albums.
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  Speaker 2: Oh well, very very much so. Out the song the
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  Speaker 2: song called it Disarm is pretty much about his childhood
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  Speaker 2: and the sadness the experience from the abuse that he endured. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: I mean, to Billy's credit, he definitely had a very
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  Speaker 2: rough childhood, but he absolutely well, I guess luckily for him,
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  Speaker 2: he found the perfect outlet, which was his mut music
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  Speaker 2: and guitar playing, so he was able to put all
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  Speaker 2: that into that. And he talks about he took well
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  Speaker 2: like over the years, how he felt suicidal in the
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  Speaker 2: early nineties, particularly especially the period between Gish and also
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  Speaker 2: Siamese Dream. He considered suicide, but lucky for us he didn't,
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  Speaker 2: because it's kind of sad to think that we would
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  Speaker 2: have never gotten the Siamese Dream album and also all
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  Speaker 2: the other great music he's also given us over the years.
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  Speaker 2: But yeah, he just luckily for us was able to
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  Speaker 2: get past that, whereas sadly people like Kurt Cobain didn't.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I guess we're all just different and we
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  Speaker 2: all handle problems differently.
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  Speaker 1: Before the Pumpkins formed, he went through several earlier bands
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  Speaker 1: like hexin, Coat of Eyes and the Marked. Some of
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  Speaker 1: Marked material of surface on YouTube. I haven't listened to it,
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  Speaker 1: but you note that he still had a ways to
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  Speaker 1: go with writing memorable songs around that period. He was
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  Speaker 1: in Florida at that time. During that same period, Billy
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  Speaker 1: saw the Red Hot Chili Peppers playing a time club
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  Speaker 1: and also caught a performance by Bad Brains. Talk about
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  Speaker 1: the impact that those shows had on his mindset as
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  Speaker 1: a musician, and.
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  Speaker 2: Also, I just want to I just want to ask you.
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  Speaker 2: Did you ever see video footage of his high school
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  Speaker 2: band called Hexan. Did you see that?
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  Speaker 1: No?
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  Speaker 2: I highly recommend you and all the viewers check it
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  Speaker 2: out on YouTube. There is a guitar solo that he does.
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  Speaker 2: He's down one of the members' basements, I guess is
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  Speaker 2: where they used to rehearse, and he does I talk
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  Speaker 2: about that in the book. He does a guitar solo
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  Speaker 2: that's like beyond Ingveay Moundstein. Really yes, I highly highly
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  Speaker 2: recommend checkout. It's like Hex and Billy Corgan solo. Definitely
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  Speaker 2: check it out. I think you're going to be very uh,
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  Speaker 2: you're gonna be a very big fan of it, especially
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  Speaker 2: you're like listening to like, you know, Van Hallen and
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  Speaker 2: also Ingvey and Randy Road and all that stuff that
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  Speaker 2: was popular at the time.
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  Speaker 1: Right, because we find out years later he is a
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  Speaker 1: fan of those bands and those guitars. He ends up
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  Speaker 1: interviewing Eddie Yes for it was a guitar world.
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  Speaker 2: It was a guitar world in nineteen ninety six, am right.
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  Speaker 2: But the I remember buying the issue on my way
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  Speaker 2: to work back in nineteen ninety six.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, he's a huge Van Halen fan. And he
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: just had on his own show he had Stephen Pearcy
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  Speaker 1: from Rat.
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  Speaker 2: Yes he did.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, That's one thing that Billy Corgan has always been
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  Speaker 2: very vocal about. You know, in the nineties, it wasn't
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: so cool to say that he liked eighties metal. But
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  Speaker 2: I remember in like interviews as early as ninety four
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  Speaker 2: ninety five he was named checking judas priest and also
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: you know, albums and bands by them, so especially the
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  Speaker 2: a British Steel album. I remember he mentioned, yes, but.
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  Speaker 1: That Chili Peppers and Bad Brains really formed his sound.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, like the mid eighties. Of course, that were
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  Speaker 2: still a few years before Nirvana never Mind changed everything,
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  Speaker 2: and alternative is still pretty much totally underground. There were
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: Hot Chili Peppers only have like one or two albums.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: The Bad Brains have a few albums, but they sadly
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: never get really a major label shot until the nineties,
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  Speaker 2: and it's not nearly as good as what they were
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  Speaker 2: doing in the eighties. But he is lucky to see
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  Speaker 2: those two bands at their peak. I believe that would
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: have been the Chili Peppers when He'll Slovak was still
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: in the band and that's considered their their best lineup,
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: and the Bad Brains that's their peak too. That's around
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  Speaker 2: the time of Eye Against Die, which is my favorite
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  Speaker 2: Bad Brains album ever. That's say a great, great album.
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  Speaker 2: But yeah, I think by seeing those two bands that
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  Speaker 2: shows him that there's more than just He seems like
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  Speaker 2: in high school went from metal to being into like
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  Speaker 2: alternative than goth It seems like he goes from listening
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: to metal, then he goes to like Jesus in the
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: Mary Chain and Depeche Mode, and then also like r Em.
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  Speaker 2: I know he was in two in the eighties as well,
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  Speaker 2: So it seems like maybe through the Bad Brains because
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  Speaker 2: the Bad Brains Eye Against Die album, that's definitely a
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  Speaker 2: melding of a bunch of different styles of music, like reggae,
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: heavy metal. It's probably their first like hard rock, heavy
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: metali ish type album. There's a little bit of funk,
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: not that much, but on like later albums add some
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: more funkier stuff. But maybe seeing the Bad Brains and
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: also the Chili Pepper has maybe expanded his his horizons
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  Speaker 2: and also showed that there was maybe something on the
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: horizon that was going to be coming, you know soon,
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  Speaker 2: that was going to give us a much needed alternative
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: to all the bad hair metal that was popular at
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: the time.
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  Speaker 1: You also talk in the book about how he was
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: able to figure out a way to write songs around
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  Speaker 1: the guitar. He realized he wasn't going to be the
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: kind of guitarist like an Eddie van Halen or that type.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: But right you're saying he could he did have that capability,
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  Speaker 1: but I think he found his He found his strike Zone,
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  Speaker 1: there was writing particular songs built around a riff.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, I do have to say what
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  Speaker 2: I was thinking around the time I was doing this book,
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: going back and listening to all the solos. Billy Corgan,
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  Speaker 2: I would think is my favorite guitarist that came out
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: of the nineteen nineties. To be honest with you, I
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: think his solos at his solos are great. The thing
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: I talk about also in the book why I loved
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: Smashing Pumpkins so much, especially at the time in like
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: nineteen ninety one. I at that point I am just
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: transitioning away from strictly listening to heavy metal and listen
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: too like alternative and funk and all other styles of music.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: And the Smashing Pumpkins were definitely a bridge type band
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: like them sound Guard and Faith No More. That for
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: people that were in a heavy metal it showed you
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: that they're that Yeah, you could still do do like
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  Speaker 2: heavy music, but you could also inject alternative and also
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: other different styles. It's it's not you're not just stayed
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: just one lane. And that's absolutely what Billy Corgan did.
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  Speaker 2: And yeah, his soloing on this the especially the first
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: two Smashing Pumpkins albums have some of my favorite solos,
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: like the solo to Schera Brock is great, the solo
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: and Siva. I love the solo in Geek USA. There's
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: a great, great B side called Starla, which is like
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: a ten minute long song and this the solo is
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: like a good four or five minutes, and it's just
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: him just shredding, but not shredding, doing mindless like that,
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: you know that that type of stuff, but it's like,
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: you know, very you know, it's like notes placed properly.
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  Speaker 2: He can play fast, but just I love his phrasing
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  Speaker 2: and it's you know, melodic playing. So yeah, So Billy
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  Speaker 2: Corgan is absolutely one of my favorite guitarists.
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  Speaker 1: So having said that, maybe and I would try to
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: find that part of the book where he talks about that.
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  Speaker 1: But maybe he was he kind of didn't think of
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  Speaker 1: himself as a great guitarist, or he kind of downplayed
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: that because it seemed like he didn't think he was.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: I don't think he did yet. Because his father was
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: also a guitarist, and his father never really it was
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: kind of difficult to get anything compliments out of him,
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: especially when it came to Billy's music and also is playing.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Once when I interviewed Billy for Rolling Stone and I
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: included in the book, he credits his father with his
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: kind of strictness or his unwillingness to give him just
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: compliments very easily concerning his playing on the guitar. That
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: also made him, I think, try harder and also develop
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: his own style, because to the best of my knowledge,
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: I don't think Billy Corgan has ever taken a guitar
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  Speaker 2: lesson in his life, and that, to me, I always
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: find fascinating when there's people that just are born with
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: a gift that they could just pick up a guitar
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: and they know what to do, and they just you know,
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: are awesome at guitar soloing and songwriting and also riff
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  Speaker 2: writing and of course, like I just mentioned before, coming
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: up with very interesting tones and things like that.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: So yeah, we talked about those bands that he was in.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: But finally he finds the lineup that would become the
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Smashing Pumpkins, and the original lineup is Billy Corgan on
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: vocals and guitar, James Eja on guitar, Darcy Retsky on bass,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: Jimmy Chamberlain on drums. Who you are a huge fan
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: of Yes, what is the origin story? How does that
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: lineup come together?
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Billy Corgan meets James Eha through a mutual acquaintance in
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: len I believe what it was was Billy was working
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: at a record store at the time and he was
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: friends with the general named lenn I think he was
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: working on He was like writing songs with them, just
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: on the side, and the guy len knew James Eja,
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: so he introduced them and they both liked the same
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: James e haa similar to Billy Corgan. He seemed to
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: enjoy heavy metal, but also bands like Echoing the Bunnyman
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: and like all alternative bands that were popular at that time.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: And the story goes that one night, Billy Corgan goes
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: to see a band called the Dan Reid Network play
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: live in Chicago, and if you go back and listen
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: to Dan Reid Network, it's not it's like almost like
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: dance music. It was very strange that he would have
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: been going to that to me. I think Billy Corgman
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: was going out to just shows every night or whenever
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: you could go out. So he is waiting outside I
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: think after the show, he's outside the venue and he
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: gets into a argument with a with a with a
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: woman there about if it was like a good band,
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: or if it was a fake band, or it was
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: like a band was put together like or if it's
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: like valid music, and they get into an argument, and
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: then somehow it gets brought up that Darcy is a
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: bassist as well, and Billy's looking for a bassist. So
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: that's how Darcy winds up sign signing on with them.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: And then later a friend recommended Jimmy Chamberlain as the drummer,
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: and ye had Jimmy Chamberlain is my favorite drummer of
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: the nineties. In fact, he's one of my favorite drummers ever.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: He's one of the few drummers that takes the power
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: of John Bonham, but he's I don't really hear any
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: John Bonham in his playing though, so it's a very
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: like strong, muscular, hard hitting sound, but it's totally his
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: own thing. And yeah, really, I was thinking again the
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: other day, Billy Corgan one of my favorite guitarists and
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: Jimmy Chamberlain one of my favorite drummers, and they happen
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: to be in the same band together, which is very interesting.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: I guess similar in a way to van Halen. Eddie
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: van Halen is one of my favorite guitarists, and I
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: love also Alex van Halen. Interesting how that you know,
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: it's an interesting comparison there.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Over the years, Billy's given a few different explanations about
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: the band's name from your research, Is there a definitive
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: meeting behind Smashing Pumpkins or has it always remained intentionally mysterious.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: I think it's intentionally mysterious, he mentioned, he like over
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: the years he taught. He gave a few different reasons,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: and I include him in the book. But one thing
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: that's interesting is when I, you know what, when I
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: first bought Gish, it was just smashing Pumpkins. Then by
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: Melancholy it is the Smashing Pumpkins. And if you look
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: back to their first ever demo, that was also the
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: Smashing Pumpkins. And then they I guess as it went
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: on they dropped the the from it. But I know
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Billy Cory once told I believe it was Matt Pinfield
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: that it was the smashing Pumpkins as like a British thing,
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: like the smashing being like a great thing, like the
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: smashing or like the glorious pumpkins. Like that type of thing.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: So that's what he said, but he's also given some
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: other reasons over the years, like it just means nothing,
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: But then he's also said that, so I guess it
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: depends on what what a day of the week you
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: would ask him that question.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: So it's still a mystery. Yeah, looking back now, that
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: moment where Courtney Love process paths with Billy Corgan and
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: then Kirk Cobaine almost that reads like a scene from
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: a rock documentary. You know, that episode stands out. It's
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: one of the strange twists in the early alternative rock word.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: How did they meet and how did Kurt enter the picture?
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: I think they meet because the Smashing Pumpkins and Hull
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: were on the same indie label at the time called Caroline.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: They both put out their first albums through that, so
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: I think maybe through that is how they met, and
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: then they're dating. But then what's interesting is Billy Corgan
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: has a girlfriend that I think he's living with at
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: the time, but he's also seeing Courtney Love that It's
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: there's like a period of time where it's kind of
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: unclear and fuzzy as to if Billy Corgan is still
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: living with his girlfriend or if they're broken up or what.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: But there was a period that him and Courtney Love
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: begin dating. And Billy Corgan's based in Chicago and Courtney Love,
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: I believe is based in LA at the time, I think,
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: or like on the West Coast or someplace. But Billy
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: corganan winds up getting a call one day and it's
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: and it's Courtney Love and this would have been in
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: nineteen ninety one, and she goes, hey, would you like
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: to see me? And he's thinking like, yeah, you know,
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: we will set up a day or it's you know,
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: a date and you can come out. And he's like yeah, sure,
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: and she's like great, I'm you know, at the airport.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: I'm like right down the street or something like that.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: And he's like whoa, whoa, whoa. He's like, you know,
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: I guess he wasn't like prepared for that. So the
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: story goes that then she from that phone call, leaves
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: wherever she was, goes to see Nirvana play, who just
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: happened to be in the area playing, and she winds
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: up hooking up with Kurt Cobain, and Billy corgan claims
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: that the next day, Courtney Love called him and said,
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: you know, hey, do you still want to get together?
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: And Billy Corgan was like, well, no, you're worth Kurt Cobain,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: you know, his quote is he can't go from rock
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: star A and go to rock star B. Right, So
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: then yeah, so that and as we all know, then
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Courtney Love and also Kurt Cobain fall in love and
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: they get married and everything and they have the whole
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Sidon Nancy thing going on. But that's a that's a
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: whole other story.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Right right, What a wild story that is. Yeah, the
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: fact that they crossed pass that early. So then the
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: Smashing Pumpkin sign with Virgin Records begin recording Gish. You
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: point out that the guitar tones and Gish really stood
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: apart from what most rock bands were doing at the time.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: What exactly made Billy Corgan and James Eja's guitar sound
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: so distinctive on that album.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Well, it was one thing I just want to say
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: too that you just brought up. What's interesting is they
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: sign with Virgin, but they cover it up by saying,
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: our first album is going to come out on Caroline,
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: which is a independent subsidiary of Virgin, which was very
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: smart because other bands did that at the time. Too,
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: like Soundgarden signed with A and M in the late
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: eighties and they said, but before we do that album,
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: we want to do an album for SST Records, which
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: was the Ultramega Okay Album, because it was kind of
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: popular at the time. Because I guess bands like Soundguarden
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: the Smashing Pumpkins had the foresight to see that it
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: makes sense to kind of build your indie underground cred
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: first and build a fan base and then you make
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: the jump to a major label kind of just like
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: going step by step, a gradual as opposed to just
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: a big, you know, explosion like Kwi Riot or the
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: Neck where you just come out of nowhere and you
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: explode and then you can't handle the success and then
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: your career is over. So that was a pretty wise
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: part I think on the Smashing Pumpkins. But yeah, but
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: getting back to your question about as far as getting
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: a good guitar sound, Billy Corgan played a strat, a
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: early seventies strat, and James Eha played a leave his
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: seventies black less Paul, and Billy Corgan got his strat,
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: which he referred to as the Gifts Strat. He actually
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: bought it from Jimmy Chamberlain. It was a yellow strat.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: It was a bullet strat, which means the truss rod
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: looks like it's like a bullet sticking out, kind of
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: similar to what Richie Blackmore played with the Deep Purple
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: in the early seventies and also at Ingy Malmstein with
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: later play. But Billy Corgan talks about how he didn't
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: want he'd never wanted just a plain yellow strat, so
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: he took paint with a paintbrush and just stabbed the guitar.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: I mean not stab but like put it all over
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: the guitar to give it like a psychedelic type look.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: And then they also used I believe Marshall lamps, and
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: like I mentioned before, they got great fuzzy sounds from
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: a big muff pie pedal which it was made by.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: The brand was called Electro Harmonics, that was who made it,
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: and it was I believe a Brooklyn based company and
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: they still are around and I actually have I bought
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: one of those pedals myself, which is definitely fun to
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: use because it's you just plug right into it and
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: you get the Gish Siamese dreams sandwhich is absolutely a
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: very fun sound. To play with. It makes all your
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: like rifts sound great, So that's yeah. Yeah, we have
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: to also thank butch Vig. He just knew how to
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: produce bands at that time great and just have a
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: great live, vintage sound. The thing that I talked about
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: in the last time I was on talking about the
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: alternative for the Masses book. What was great about bands
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: like Smashing Pumpkins is they went back to the seventies
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: production wise. They were like, no, we do not want
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: anything from the eighties with production. We want to go
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: back Tower Led Zeppelin albums, Our Black Sabbath albums, Our
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: Blue Cheer albums. That's the guitarist sound we want. We
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: want a organic live sound, a nice natural fuzz guitar tone.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: And that was That's exactly what they were able to accomplish.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: Her and Gish and also Simon's dream.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Here's the quote I think that I was referring to
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: about his approach to the guitar and songwriting. So it's
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: not necessarily to put himself down, but he well, here
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: it is another time he recalled about this time, So
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: I think you're referring to this is his high school days. Yeah,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: many of his high school classmates were going to be
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: going to college in the fall, and really opted to
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: take a gamble. Rather than continuing his education, he'd instead
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: pursue his rock and roll dreams. And he recalls quote,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: when I was eighteen years old, I reached a pivotal point.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: I was out of school, and I decided I was
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: going to play music. I had long black hair, I
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: looked weird, I acted weird, and I played a heavy
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: metal style of guitar that was not popular with my friends.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: Everybody I knew who looked like me played like Robert
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Smith of The Cure, and everybody who played like me
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: had big poodle hair. Finally, I decided that the guitar
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: playing angle was useless and that I would start working
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: on my songwriting. Then I began using my knowledge of
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: the guitar to help me with the writing. So that's
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: that's the quote I was referring to, And not that
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: he didn't put himself his guitar playing down, but I
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: think he realized that that was there. He wasn't going
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: to go with the hair band quote unquote style. He
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: was going to really focus on songwriting, and again that
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: corporates that guitar style into it.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: That shows how smart he is though that similar to
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: Kurt Cobaine, they realized how important songwriting is. And I
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: know we've talked about in one of my previous appearances
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: on the podcast Eddie van Halen. The thing that I
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: of course enjoy his solos, but what my favorite top
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: thing of Eddie van Halen was his rift writing, but
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: most importantly songwriting that was I think. And I even
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: interviewed Wolfgang once and and he pretty much said, yeah,
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: I totally agree with you that it was the riff writing.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Also the quality of songs. I mean, if you solo
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: over a shitty song withho, hell wants to hear that,
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: you know, So to Billy Corgan's credit, Kurt Cobain's credit,
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: Chris Cornell's credit, all those guys from the nineties alternative,
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: they all realize like, yeah, you know, you can solo,
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: but what's the point of soloing over you know, crappy music.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: You have to be able to work on your songwriting
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: and be able to write songs.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: So Running with the Devil the classic example, and Alex
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: was talking about that in that interview we did recently
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: with the there's a Brazilian YouTube channel and he said
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: the first time I heard Eddy play Running with the Devil,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: he was like, that's it. You're the songwriter, not me. Yeah,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: it's a songwriting that's key. Now Gish opens with I
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Am One, which almost feels like a mission statement for
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: the band. What made that song such a fitting introduction
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: to the Smashing Pumpkins sound and attitude.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Well, it's the guitar, it's the riff. Something that happens
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: in the middle of his song is it breaks down.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: It's just the bass. And that's something that Billy Corgan
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: likes to do in his songs. He likes the song
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: to break down to either it being one or two
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: instruments or just his voice. That's happened several times over
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: the years. So that was a pretty interesting song. But
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: to me, really the best introduction to the Smash of
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Pumpkins was the song Siva. That was the first song
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: I heard. I talk about in the book How I
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: remember it was the summer in nineteen ninety one, there
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: was the one hundred and twenty Minutes program on MTV
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: used to be on Sunday night, I believe, starting at
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: twelve o'clock. It was on for two or three hours,
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: depending on what year it was, it would fluctuate times
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: and that. Between that and also Headbanger's Ball, those were
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: the two specialty programs I watched over and I've made
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: it a point to watch those because that's how you
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: discovered all these great new bands. And I remember it
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: was late at night and the Siva video came on,
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: and it's such a great video. It's still one of
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: my favorite videos to this day. Because my favorite videos.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: I usually do not like videos that have a storyline
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: to them, unless they're the davidly Roth videos. I love
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: the davidly Roth videos. But in the eighties and early
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: nineties you get all these horrible storyline videos that are
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: just have not aged well at all, or just these
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: like horrible artsy fartsy videos like not to backtrack, but
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: the blind Melon Change video comes to mind. That's a
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: great song, it's ruined by a horrible video.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: That's someone They're all in the mud.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, that's the that's the I Wonder video. Yeah yeah,
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: but the yeah, but the Change video, it's just a
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: bunch of scenes that make no sense, Like it's shannonhon
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: and silver or gold and there's like a scene with
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: like a someone holding a ceramic pig. It just makes
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: no sense. It's so stupid. Yeah, there's a band. There's
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: also a band I love called Jellyfish from the nineties
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: end name Yeah, and they put out a great album
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: called Spilt Milk that should have spawned like three or
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: four hit singles, And they have like the worst videos
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: ever that just made no sense and just took away
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: from the song. So a bad video can really kill you.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, we can't look further beyond of course Billy Squire, right,
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: I mean that example, Yeah, you'd be with these still
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: called rock Me Tonight, but.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, dressed in pink panting around. Yeah. Yeah, Seva video.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: What's what was the Seva video about? Like, what's yeah?
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: So what makes the Seva video so special is it's
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: just a it gives like a hallucinogenic vibe and it's
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: very creepy and it's like very dark looking and it's
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: very moody, something that they were able to recreate on
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: the next few videos. On the Rhinoceros video is also
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: a very interesting looking video. And then also Chara Rock
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: from the next album Siamese Dream is a similar very
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: interesting looking video that all these videos. If you watch
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: late at night gives you like a certain mood setting
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: field type thing, which I highly recommend you should check
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: out those three videos, watch it late at night and
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: it gives off a very very interesting vibe.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: Remember the Tool videos, Yes.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: Exactly, yes exactly, it's like it's like similar to that.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember Saturday Nights in the fall around that
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: time ninety one ninety two watching head Banger's Ball. Yep,
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: you know that was when Ki Kiss had the revenge. Yes,
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: alb them ount in some of the videos were on there.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, hen Banger's Ball one hundred and twenty minutes was
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: kind of like my Spotify at the time. That's what
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: you went to to, you know, discover bands. You know,
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: I remember discovering Smashing Pumpkins that way, and you know, yeah,
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: that was definitely those two shows introduced me to a
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: lot of bands that became my favorites.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for checking out the Booked on Rock podcast.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: If you've just found the podcast, welcome. If you've been listening,
• 30:44
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• 30:46
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• 30:48
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• 30:52
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• 30:54
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• 30:57
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  Speaker 1: tune in, and on YouTube music. You can check out
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: the full episodes on video, along with video highlights from
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: episodes on the Booked on Rock YouTube channel. Find it
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: at Booked on Rock. Thanks again for listening. Now back
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: to the show. Siva Rhinoceros. Great songs, but that entire
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: album is from start to finish its solid, but they
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: step it up even further on the next album. Greg Prato,
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: the author of the brand new book I Am One
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: The Smashing Pumpkins Story nineteen eighty eight to nineteen ninety four,
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: So you go to the end of ninety two, the
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: band finally had material they felt that could follow Gish,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: that would lead to Simese Dream. Billy has said that
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: during the recording of Sime's Dream he felt enormous pressure
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: because the band's future seemed to depend on the album succeeding.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: How much did that pressure contribute to both the intensity
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: of the music and the tension within the band at
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: that time.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a lot going on at the time.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: Billy talks about feeling pressure because Gish came out prior
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: to Nirvana Nevermind. After Nirvana Nevermind come out, then suddenly
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: alternative rock just totally explodes. And then you have the
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: huge success of Pearl Jam ten and of course the
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: you know, grunge bands such as Sound Garden, nine S
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: Nails creates a very big buzz. You know, there's all
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: these bands that are now suddenly that are huge in
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: ninety one ninety two that wouldn't have been huge if
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: they came out and say, like the early eighties. You know,
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: it's all about time and when they come out. So yeah,
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: so you had that. So he put a lot of
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: pressure on himself. Billy Corgan has talked over the years
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: that he suffered from a very big case of writer's
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: block around that time. But by doing this book and
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: listening to demos and watching YouTube footage, he had almost
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: half of Siame's dream written in like ninety one early
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: ninety two. So I don't know if it's just like
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: him not remembering it correctly or what it was. So,
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, maybe just he wanted to have more songs
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: than he need than he needed to have, like a
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: pool of songs to choose from. Maybe that's what he meant.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: But he already had had some great songs written.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Maybe it was lyrics, because you talk about him sitting
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: down at the typewriter typing pages and pages of lyrics
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: before he picked out something that made him but this
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: is interesting, that made him feel the most embarrassed.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: That's what he said. Yeah, I mean some of his lyrics. Yeah,
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: he said he wrote it that way. I believe some
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: lyrics he just probably wrote right in the studio too.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: I know Kurt Cobain did that, David Lee Roth did that.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: You know that. That to me, I always find fascinating
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: how some people just have a gift that they could
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: just sit down and write great lyrics or you know,
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: like on the spot, you know that. That to me
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: is definitely a talent. But yeah, but Billy Corgan's lyrics.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: What's funny is I loved his singing style on the
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: first two Smashing Pumpkins album. It's a very interesting singing style.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: It's similar to I talk about in the book, similar
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: to your Paul Stanley's or your Joey Ramones. You're like
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Alice Cooper Mick Jagger, where they're not like your super singer,
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: They're not like you're Freddie Mercury. They're not like Ronnie
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: James Dio. But if you hear a few seconds of
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: Paul Stanley, you know exactly who that is, you know,
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: and his voice fits that music perfectly. The same with
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Billy Corgan on the first two Smashing Pumpkins albums, I
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: thought I had a very interesting singing style. He could screw,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: he could like holler and scream, but he also had
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: like a very breathy like when he would play quiet
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: type material. He had. He had a very breathy singing
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: style which I haven't really heard anyone else do, which
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: was very very original for its time. And also the lyrics.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: I loved his lyrics on those first two Smashing Pumpkins albums.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: They're very evocative and and again some of them tell
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: us story, some of them just bring images to mind,
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: you know, similar to like a Chris Cornell where just
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: like wines strewn together kind of can make a picture
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: in your mind.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: You bring up an interesting point because you are right
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: about that, And I wonder if did Butch Fig do
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: this the Simmons.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, the first two Smashing pro did the first two.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: He didn't do anything after that, didn't do anything after that,
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: because I agree with you like his voice blends with
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: the guitars really well, like they well together. And then
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: I agree after that, Yes, No, I didn't really feel
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: that same way, rud that be but Vig.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, certain bands they find a producer that they stick with,
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: like I'm thinking like Rush with the producer Terry Brown.
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: They realized that's something good and they stuck with him
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: for like ten years or whatever. I really wish that's
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: what Smashing Pumpkins did with Butch Vig, because besides producing,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: Butch Vig definitely had a knack with the Smashing Pumpkins
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: with being able to select the best material. He would
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: also offer suggestions to also improve songs. He got a
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: great singing singing out of Billy Corgan, of course we
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: talked about before the guitar sound I love. I also
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: love Jimmy Chamberlain's drum sound. I really wish the Pumpkins
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: stuck with Butch Vig and I once and I've interviewed
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: Butch Vig and also Billy Corgan over the years, and
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: I asked them both, would you ever work with each
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: other again? And they both said yes, But that was
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: like a long time ago. So I'm still holding out
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: hope that one year they will that Butchervig will unite
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: with Smashing Pumpkins and they'll do something again together, because that,
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: to me is my favorite when Butcher Vig is producing
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: Smashing Pumpkins.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: Sure, what's the current lineup right now?
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Well, I know that we have Jimmy Chamberlain on drums.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: We have James E. Ha on guitar, we have Billy
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: Corgan on guitar. The names after that, I'm a little
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: I'm a little fuzzy on the guitarist. They have a
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: third guitarist named Kiki Wong. I know that that they
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: She just joined like a year or two ago. She's
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: like a heavy metal shredder, which, to be honest, I'm
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: not that big a fan of I don't think it
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: really fits the Smashing Pumpkins music that like that. But
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: you know, Billy Smashing Pumpkins is without adapt Billie Qurgan's bands.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: Whatever he wants to do, you gotta just let him
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: do what he wants to do. And then the bassist,
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: I forget the gentleman's name, but I believe he's the
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: son of a Joy Division's bassist. I just don't know
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: his name.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: Though, Okay, so it's three of the.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: Three, yes, three of the Darcy Retzki left the band
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: I believe in nineteen ninety nine or twenty nineteen ninety nine,
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: and she's pretty much retired from music. She's out of
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: the public eye. She's unfortunately over the years, like this
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: is like a long time ago. I know she was
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: back in the news for like things that you don't
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: want to be involved in the news for, for like
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: getting busted with drugs. And there was also like a
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: weird thing where she has a horse forming some horses
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: got loose or something weird like that, and there was
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: like a mugshot of horror. I know that was making
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: the rounds. But again, this is like ten or fifteen
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: years ago, so I have no idea what she's up
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: to now.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: Going back to Simon's dream Now, cherub Rock opens the
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: album with a very direct critique of the alternative rock
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: scene and music industry politics at the time. What was
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: Billy Corgan reacting to when he wrote that song and
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: why was it a perfect track to open the album?
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: You think, well, it's similar to the Nirvana song called
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: School that I know, Kurt Cobaine's lyric as I believe
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: you're you're in high school again was his lyric, and similarly,
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: Billy Corgan says, who wants honey as long as there's money?
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: And I think they're both getting at is they experienced
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: high school where there's all clicks. You know, there's the nerds,
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: the jocks, the rockers, there's all these different things. And
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: then what happens You get on these record labels like
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: subpop or whatever, and then suddenly there are these clicks like, oh,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: are you authentic or are you a band that like
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: a record label put together?
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Are you just like a stupid like heavy metal guy,
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: or do you really are you like a true punk
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: rocker or not. So it's just funny, how you know,
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: with especially Billy Corgan and that song Shara Rock, it
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: just he couldn't escape pretty much what he experienced in
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: high school with all the clicks and sets and things
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: like that, And that was him pointing it out that
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: it was, I guess kind of funny in a way,
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: in a in a twisted kind of way.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: Let me Out, Yeah, that was what he says, let
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: me Out Today. One of the band's most recognizable songs
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: today was a huge hit. I don't know if it
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: was top ten, but I know it was a big
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: hit on MTV in the radio. Lyrically, it's actually rooted
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: in Billy Corgan dealing with depression. You mentioned that talk
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: about his depression. Why do you think that contrast between
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: the upbeat sound and the darker meaning resonated so strongly
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: with listeners.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: Well, it's a very very melodic song. It is probably
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: one of the more melodic songs on the Simeon Dream
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: album and it starts with a very interesting, almost like
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: he's playing like a music box sounding little motif on
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: his guitar, which interesting we learned in the book. He
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: just came up with on the spot one day at
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: band rehearsal. They actually had the whole song written, but
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: they know how to start it, so he just stood
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: there and just played anything, and then he played that.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: He looked up all the band members, then just went
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: into the song and all rights and then that's how
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: they came up with that. But yeah, that song was
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: supposedly the lyrics were he wrote a song the lyrics
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: Today is the greatest day I've ever known, And he
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: wrote that when he was at his lowest concerning being depressed.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: So that's one good thing that came out of his
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: depression was a song like Today. And then also there
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: was a period of time where they were demoing or
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: actually recording material for it was gonna be on Sime's Dream,
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: and I guess they were purposely not playing it for
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: the record label. And finally Billy Corgan was like, all right, fine, coming,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: just listen to this one song. He played them with
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: the song today and they all went absolutely gagaf for it.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: They were like, oh, great, this is fantastic. This album
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: is gonna be great. So that just kind of put
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: everyone's minded ease after they heard that song today.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: And that's the video where he's in the ice cream truck.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, he's in the ice cream truck. Yeah, that was
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: to me, that was like the last Smashing Pumpkins video
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: that I could say I kind of liked. I mean,
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: it was still it was definitely veering more towards the
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: storyline type thing, but it still was a little bit artsy,
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: but not as direct. Then after that you get into
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: the Disarmed video. I'm not really it's a little too
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: arty for me. The Rocket video. I don't really care
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: for the bullet with Butterfly video, Bullet with Butterfly Wings video.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: At that point, I check out with Smashing Pumpkins. It's
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: like a totally different band at that point.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: Disarmed is one of the most emotionally raw songs on
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: that album, deals with childhood pain and family relationship. So
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: import was that level of the personal honesty in defining
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: that emotional core of the album as a whole.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a huge part. I mean, for Billy Corgan,
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: that's like a page out of his diary pretty much.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: It seems like just him talking about all the abuse
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: it was mental and also physical that he suffered as
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: a child. And yeah, it seems like he was almost
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: exercising his demons, but not in a loud rock song,
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: but in a very pretty beautiful sounding ballad with strings
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: and timpany. So again, you know, the thing which was
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: great about also Billy Corgan is he was not just
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: in one again, like not in one lane. When it
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: came to writing types of music. He drew from heavy
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: metal ballads. Later he would do like the song nineteen
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: seventy nine is like a new wave electronic type things. Again,
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: it's very interesting the wide variety of styles he's done
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: over the years.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, nineteen seventy nine alike. And what was the other song?
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: It was it a hit? Or was it it was
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: a hit? There was a zero that has the riff.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: I didn't like that one. It was a softer one.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: Thirty three, Yes, that's it. You know what's funny is
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: on that melancholy album, the more experimental songs like thirty
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: three nineteen seventy nine, those are the ones actually liked more.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: Or like there's a song called we Only Come Out
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: at Night, which is kind of like it's supposed to
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: like a goof type song, but I found those much
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: more interesting than a bullet with butterfly Wings and all
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: the other and even like, yeah, even the song Tonight Tonight,
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: I wasn't even it was just but you know, I'm
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: sure we'll get to that at some point during this
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: interview right now.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, Yeah, Yeah, I bought that double CD and I did. Yeah,
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: I never really listened to it from start to finish
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: a lot because I just kind of just kind of
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: ran out of steam for maybe. Yeah, anyway, back to
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: Simon's dream. For years, this is interesting. For years, there
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: are rumors that Billy played a lot of the guitar
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: and the bass parts on the album, and Sir Butch
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: Vig later confirmed to you confirmed to me, yes, yes,
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: that he did most of the overdubs, that Billy did
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: most of the over dubs. Now, how widely known was
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: that at the time? And did it surprise fans when
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: it finally came out?
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: You know what's funny is with like revisionist history, it's like, oh, yeah,
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: everybody knew. But I'm thinking back to the time, there
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: was like there were whispers of it. I think there
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: was maybe like one or two, like I know kind
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: of what really how most people found that out was
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: there was a Rolling Stone cover story in early nineteen
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: ninety four, and I think that was when they when
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: they came right out and said it. And Billy Corgan
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: says it wasn't him who said it. It was actually Darcy
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: and also James Ihas supposedly that were the ones that
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: were on record. Billy Corgan said he would have been
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: comfortable just not saying anything and just letting you know,
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: just just not commenting on it. But yeah, over the
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: years and now it's pretty much common knowledge that it
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: sounds like he played the vast majority of guitar and
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: also bass, not because Darcian James E. Hoar are like
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: bad players or anything, just that when you're under the
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: gun with like timelines and deadlines that you have to meet,
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: and you know, when you're working with a producer, you're
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: trying and if you can play something better than someone else,
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: you want to get the best performance on tape. So
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: I think that's why they wound up going to Billy
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: playing a lot of the stuff on those two albums.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: But now it's kind of common knowledge that it was
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: mostly Billy who played guitar and bass.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: So the cover of the album two young Girls with
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: angel wings embracing, which doesn't seem directly tied to the
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: album's title or the lyrics or anything like that, But
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: do we know what the band or the photographer we're
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: trying to convey with that image.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: What's interesting is the inside of the album. It's all
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: old photos that look like photos that you would have
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: gone up to like your attic, and it's like all
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: black and white. But then what Billy Corgan did him
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: and his wife at the time, who was an artist.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: They took sharpies, but like the metallic sharpies, and they
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: wrote like all little like doodles on the pictures and
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: also wrote lyrics from the songs and everything like that,
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: which I thought was a very cool touch. And I
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: think maybe the cover is supposed to be kind of
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: like a reflection of that. It was a recent photo
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: that was taken, but I think like they made it
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: look like it could have been maybe like a small
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: chial's party from like the seventies or eighties or something
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: like that. And then when you open up this back
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: then it was CD's where the that's how I bought
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: Sime's Dream was on CD. When you open up the booklet,
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: it was always like interesting old photos of what looks
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: like from the forties and fifties of all people, and
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: also lyrics and also little dude ads written on them.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: All right, so are they like the Bee Girl? Do
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: they show up at conventions and things? Or what's the
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: story with that girls?
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: And you know, it's funny. That would have been a
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: golden opportunity. The Smashing Pumpins could have done a video
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: similar to No Rain, like Blind Melon. They could have
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: put those two girls in a video, but they chose
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: not to. Where the idea just never came up, I guess,
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that would have that would have made sense though.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: Right sure, if they did, they would have become like
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: the B Girl.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: Eric should be a music video director.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: That I missed out on my opportunity. By the way,
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: the album was recorded in Marietta, Georgia Triclops Studio.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Find the Booked on Rock website at booked on Rock
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: dot Com. There you can find all the back episodes
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: of the show, the latest episode in video and audio,
• 46:23
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• 46:25
  Speaker 1: to the podcast, plus all the social media platforms were
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and x. Also check
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: out the Booked on Rock blog. Find your local independent bookstore,
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: find out all the latest hot rock book releases, and
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: before you go, check out the Booked on Rock online store.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: Pick up some booked on rock merch. It's all at
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: booked on Rock dot com. There's this almost unbelievable story.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: It's hard to believe, but it actually happened. Jimmy Chamberlain.
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: He disappeared for a week in Atlanta. Yes, and the
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: band even they mentioned it on the radio. Could somebody
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: if you see it, Jimmy, you know, please tell him
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: right back home. What does that episode reveal about how
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: chaotic things were at that time.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, That's also something else about that perer that I
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: forgot to mention was Jimmy Chamberlain had a very bad
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: drug problem at the time, and you couldn't really trust him.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: He would sometimes show up to rehearsal, sometimes not seems
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: like he would sometimes be at recording sessions, sometimes would
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: not show up. So yeah, that definitely added to all
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: the stress with everything that was going on at the time.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: So yeah, and the story goes, of course this is
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: before cell phones, that they are at Triclops studio, they're
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: recording and then suddenly Jimmy Chamberlain just disappears for days
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: on end and they don't know where the hell he is,
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: and they have to finish this album and they had
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: to go on Billy Cordon claims that they went on
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: the radio and said, hey, if anyone knows where Jimmy Chamberlain,
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: our drummer is, tell him we're still working on the album.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: To come back, you know. And eventually he turned up
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: and they were able to finish what is now a
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: classic album.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, went through a rough period and I do remember
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: I think maybe it was kind of one of those
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: tough Love things, where Billy Corgan removed him from the
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: band and said, if you don't get your shit together,
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: we can't play with anymore. If I recall correctly, that
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: was the.
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: He went to rehab and then also, of course later
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety six, he winds up overdosing but doesn't die,
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: but the then Smashing Pumpkins touring keyboard as Jonathan Melvoy
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: I think did the drugs with him or bought the
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: drugs with him, and he unfortunately died, And that's then
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: Jimmy Chamberlain gets throw out of the Pumpkins for like
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: a year or two at that point.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: But it's a great story because he's doing really well
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: these days. Apparently he's in the band doing well. So
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: that's a success story that unfortunately isn't always the case
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: in rock and roll. So by the end of ninety four,
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: after the success of Simon's Dream, Smashing Pumpkins go from
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: a Chicago club band to one of the biggest names
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: in alternative rock at that moment, just before Melancholy. Where
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: do you think the band stood creatively culturally? Where were
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: they at that point?
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: Well, I just want to point out that is precisely
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: where I cut off the book, right, thanks, Yeah, so
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: the reason why I cut off the book also ties
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: in with your question. Yeah. So I set my sights
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: up very, very high for for the next Smashing Pumpkins
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: album because on the on the previous two they totally
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: blew me away, like you know, with with with Gish,
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: I wasn't knowing what exactly to expect and it was
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: just at a left field an album. I loved the
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: second album, Siamese Dream. I was like, all right, well,
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: look I love this first album Gish. Hopefully they deliver
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: the goods and they absolutely did, so why not think
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: a little that they're that when I think that they're
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: going to outdo themselves again, especially because Billy Corgan at
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: the time was saying things like We're gonna outdo Siamese Dream.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: And also in this next album, like you know, everything
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: is gonna be you know, I'm gonna do like a
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: pet Sounds Brian Wilson type thing, like you know, everything's
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: in the stew like hard rock, symphonic stuff, everything, you know.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: So I'm like, all right, great, and then I heard
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: the bullet with Butterfly Wings single on the radio. I
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: was not impressed. I talk about in the book that
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: to me, it sounded like a caricature of The Smashing Pumpkins,
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: even the lyric, despite all my rage, I'm still Yeah,
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: despite all my rage, I'm still just a rat in
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: the cage. People latch onto that to this day and
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: they consider it like a classic lyric and everything, But
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: I always thought it was like a stupid lyric. To me,
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: it sounded like Billy Corgan writing like a goof lyric.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: And he then later on Howard Stern even admitted that
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: so much, Yeah, exactly, and that's spilled over throughout the
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: whole album. Just the lyrics I could not get behind.
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: It would just cliche type stuff like him writing what
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: sounded It was almost like him trying to write what
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: people like? What do he thought people wanted to hear
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: from The Smashing Pumpkins almost in certain areas, and it
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: just Yeah, his singing was different. He was then doing
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: a very nasally singing thing. It was very compressed sounding,
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: and I just did not like the singing style.
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: Type of sound, I have to say that, and.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: To me, it was just it was it was just
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: it was really sad because I love the first two
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: albums is singing I loved. I love the singing, I
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: love the lyrics, the performance just yeah, I mean even
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: like the riffs, like the the the song zero has
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: like an okay riff, but that's even kind of like
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: a cliche Smashing Pumpkin's B side type riff. It's not,
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: you know. And then there were certain songs that had potential,
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: like a song called Muzzle, a song called Porcelina of
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: the Vast Oceans, and then my favorite song on the
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: whole album is the last song called Farewell and good Night,
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: which I actually do like a lot.
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: I remember it, yeah, I haven't listened to it.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: Actually. Christopher Thorne, who I did a I did a
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: funny te with it for this book, had a had
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: a very good quote. He's like, you know, look, I'm
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: a huge beat this is what he said. He says,
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: I'm the biggest Beatles fan there is. But you know,
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you I can condense the White album to
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: one single album and I'm totally good with that. And
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: he said, you know, one bad thing that was happening
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: in the nineties is suddenly everyone thought they had to
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: make like seventy minute long albums, like they're like Soundgarden,
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: super unknown and goes beyond seventy minutes. And then of
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: course you had Smashing Pumpkins that, like they have the
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: opportunity to do a double album, doesn't mean that just
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: because you have the opportunity to do something doesn't mean
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: that you should do it. Is Siame's Dream. What made
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: it work so well is it was concise and what's
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: funny enough. Siame's Dream and even Gish had outstanding b sides,
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: so great to the point that there's certain songs that
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: really could have been on the album. Like on Gish
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: there's a song called Plume that's a great song. Blue
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: is a great song. On Sime's Dream, you had a Hello,
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: Kitty Kat is a great song, Pissant is a great song.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: All these songs that were good enough to be on
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: the album, but they, you know, didn't jam at all
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: on the album. On Melancholy, there's just as all just jammed,
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: and it just I talk about this also in the
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: book is it seemed like listening back to it because
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: I listened to it while I was doing research for
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: the book, thinking that, well, maybe if I now listen
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: to it many years later, maybe I'll think differently. But no,
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: I felt I got the same vibe, but this time
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: I got the vibe. It almost sounded like they were
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: rushing to meet like a deadline, almost like certain songs
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: don't even sound like fully finished. It just almost like
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: a demo type thing. But I do mention in the
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: book that's the biggest selling Smashing Pumpkins album.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: I was about to say that, yeah. Yet yeah, it
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: was like considered a masterpiece in.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: The right critically, similarly similar to the Metallica Black album.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: I do not like that album at all, but that
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: is the one of the biggest selling albums ever. And
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: I'm not a big fan of Alanis Morris at Jagged
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: Little Pill, but that is one of the biggest selling
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: albums ever. So I guess the moral of the stories
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: do not go by what do not go by what
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: Greg Praio thinks concerning album sales or anything like that.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: Hey, but that's what I like about you. Just you
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: just speak in mind, tell like it is, that's what
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: you feel. I mean, I agree with what you're saying.
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: And I'll say this is an argument for the vinyl
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: era even more than everybody was talking about how great
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: the sound was, you know, that warm sound of vinyl,
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: but it forced these bands and these artists. There was
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: only so many songs you could fit, yes, all right,
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: so you you had to pare it down to ten
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: eleven songs or whatever, you know, So then you had
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: to come up with the best of the best, and
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: you'd have to discard songs that may even be okay,
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: but those types of songs end up on CDs. CDs.
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: It was you could just fit as much as.
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: You want in there, as much as you want.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: And I think cassettes had the same restrictions too, yeah,
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: they did.
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: And then something also I also mentioned is sadly, I
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: remember two or three days before Melancholy dropped, that was
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: when Shannon Huon died. And I was a huge, as
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: you know, a huge, huge blind Melon fan, and I
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: love their album Soup that just came out one or
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: two months before, So you know, that's an album that
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: I set my expectations high, and my expectations were met,
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: in fact beyond met, because to this day it's one
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: of my favorite albums of all time.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: Same here.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: So sadly Shannon Huon dies and I'm just sad and
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: depressed because there goes one of my favorite bands, and
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: there goes one of my favorite singers. So I'm thinking,
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: all right, well, you know, here comes this new Smashing
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: Pumpkins album. They're one of my favorite bands. I love
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: their first two albums. Maybe they'll save the day or
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: at least provide some relief with another great, great album
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: it which is so disappointing. It just I.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: Felt like I was obligated to buy it because everybody
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: was talking about it and the songs were on MTV
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: in the radio, and yeah, fell short of it. But again,
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: I'm going to say thirty three nineteen seventy nine love
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: those songs.
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah. For me, the song Farewell and good Night, I
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: would suggest you should give a listen to. That's a
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: good song. Makes a song interesting is all four members
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: take a turn singing, which makes it kind of interesting.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: So I mean melancholy. If you bring it down to
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: one album, if you got Butch Vig producing it, I
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: think would have been a lot lot better. I think that, Yeah,
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: then it could have been. But again, I'm saying a
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: lot lot better. Meanwhile, there's a lot of Smashing Pumpkins
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: fans that are gonna call me a moron for saying that,
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: because that's probably their favorite Smashing Pumpkins album and it
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: sold what ten million copies or whatever? So to each
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: his own.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: To each his own. So final question, after you spent
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: so much time researching and writing about the Smashing Pumpkins
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: the formative years, what do you think that is the
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: single most important thing people should understand about that period
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight to nineteen eighty four. What? Why does
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: it still matter? Why should it still matter when we
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: talk about the band today.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: Well, like I said to me, I still think that
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: they're some of the best sounding albums of that era,
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: butch Vig. But also I think Billy Corgan had a
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: lot to do with that. And really Billy Corgan has
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: to be commended that he took the time to really
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: get a great guitar sound. You know, again, there was
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: an error in the mid to late eighties where getting
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: a great guitar our sound was almost like not even
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: considered it, just like, yeah, just throw anything on an album.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: Who the hell cares? You know. You know, I'm thinking
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: to some of those like late eighties Kiss albums or
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: like I even mentioned Metallica Injustice for All has like
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: such a tiny guitar sound, you know, it's like not
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: balls at all, you know, whereas if you just go back,
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: like you mentioned the Ride the Lightning album, at least
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: there is you know, some you know balls to it, you.
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: Know, So don't get me started on all You eight
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: one two yeah.
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm thinking now even like like fifty one
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: to fifty was and he didn't even have that greative
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: guitar sound.
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: Right right, Although although Martin Popoffs seemed to speak highly
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: of it, mean he says that's he feels that that
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: is the quintessential Brown sound because Brown the Brown sound
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: was not so much Eddie's guitar, but it was Alex's drums.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: But I don't agree with that. All the Brown Sound
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: to me is the first album and also fair warning
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: probably yeah that that to me is, yeah, that's that's
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: their best sounding albums. But but yeah, but I mean, really,
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: I think what we should get from from Smash Pumpkins
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: is their ability to really bridge the gap between heavy
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: metal and also alternative rock, but make it sound very natural.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: It wasn't like a force you know. It's very interesting
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: what made Gish and Simmey's Dreams so special. It was
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: not forced sounding, whereas to me, Melancholy sounded force sounding.
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: The Book Down Rock podcast is part of the Boneless
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: podcasting Network. If you're a fan of classic rock and
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: classic film like I am, go to Boneless dot lovable
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: dot app to find over twenty great shows there that's
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: Boneless Downlovable dot app, or just go to bookdown rock
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: dot com the Boneless podcasting network. It is what you
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: want to be listen with confidence. Tell us when the
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: book is out. I am on The Smashing Pumpkins Story
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eighteen ninety four. What is it out now?
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: It is, in fact out now, Yes it is. It's
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: available as kindle, hardcover and paperback, and there is a
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: audio version already recorded and done. But for some reason
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: the company is dragging their feet. So I'm but by
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: the time you see this interview, there's probably good chance
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: it'll be it'll be done. If you're watching this video
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: like a few months later, absolutely it's done.
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: So okay.
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, those four formats, well, you know.
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: And these are these interviews. They remain online for years.
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: So if it's the year twenty thirty six, yeah, you know,
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: it's ten years later, it's definitely definitely there. Yes, all right, cool,
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: So it is, it is out and people can find
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: you online, Facebook, Twitter, right, all those places.
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. If you want to check out my books,
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: go if you Yeah, if you want to check out
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: my books, go to Amazon dot com look up Greg
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: Prado and you can go to X and you can
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: look up Greg Prado writer. I'm there and I'm always
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: on X. I'm always posting my latest articles because I
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: write for a bunch of sites. So I've done some
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: very good interviews lately, Dude, Mike McCready from Pearl Jam
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: and also Thurston More from Sonic Youth. Also Archie Falkner
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: from Judas Priest. Gary Holt, yeah, I get Gary Holt
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: from the band Exodus.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: I have done some pretty uh pretty pretty interesting interviews,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: and tonight I need to.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: View Derek's right. That's right. Do you ever did you
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: ever think about getting your own podcasts?
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: You know, it's funny people tell people have been telling
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: me that for many, many years, and it seems like
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: there's so many podcasts now that I mean, I could theoretically,
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: but just I don't know, there's just so many of them.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I again, I don't mean that
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: as like an insult to you, because I'm a huge
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: fan of your million podcast but just you know, there's
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: so many of them now. It's just like I don't know, no,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: you know what.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: It would have to be something you have a passion
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: for like I do. So it's like no matter yea,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: no matter what, you're going to do it because you'd
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: love to do it. Like just the process of me
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: doing this it makes me happy.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: So it's like I also have a background. You also
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: have a background with like you know, radio and stuff, right, yeah, yes,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: I mean yeah, whereas like I had no background with
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: radios so and and we've talked about in the past.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: I had no idea I was even going to be
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: a writer or an interviewer when I was younger. I
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: kind of fell into this totally by accident. So you know,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: that's also part of the thing. But uh no, I
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: don't really have much of great I don't know if
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: I have a great radio voice with my long Island accent.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: You have that distinctive voice, I don't know. I think
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: it would work. And you've got all the connections, man,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: you'd have all the best guests. But nah, I mean,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: you have to really want to do it because it's
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: a lot of work and you know, I I think
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: with podcasting until you want to find like a niche
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: like there's only there's only like a few there's this
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: and one other podcast I know about that that just
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: focus this on books on rock and roll.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, now you think about it, If like
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: AI makes music websites completely obsolete, I may have no
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: choice but to start doing like a podcast, right with
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: interviews and stuff like that.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: So well, I think, but you know, technology is going
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: to keep up with that to where they're going to
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: be able to find out you know that. I actually
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: just read an article about an author who got called
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: out for writing a book and there was a you
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: can scan these books and determine if there's a particular
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: language that okay, this is AI, and they pulled the
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: book down if.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: You go on if you go on Amazon, it's mind
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: bogguggling how many AI created books there are. I'm surprised
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: Amazon actually allows these books to be sold a lot
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: of them. Yeah, And I did some research and they
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: actually have a name for these books, which I think
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: is a good name, AI slot books, right, which mean
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: it's just AI slop like you just enter in all right,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: like these are the facts. I want this chapter to
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: be about, you know, Smashing Pumpkins nineteen ninety two tour
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: Go Away, you know, I mean take it away.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: And are they self published? Yes, because there's no publisher.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: That's not no, it's just you can pretty much publish
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: I think, I mean, you got to meet the guidelines.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: But yeah, to the best of my knowledge, there is
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: very little governing going on with Amazon. I'm shocked that
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: they're allowing this to go on like they are. I
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: guess it just comes down to making money is when
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: it comes.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, But I think they'll just catch up to it eventually,
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: because you certainly can't. I would think that they're not
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: quoting artists and stuff in these books, because then you
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: can't I mean legally if you didn't.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: I mean honestly, I haven't bought any of them, but
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: like I've read just like certain And then what also
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: makes no sense if you go and if you go
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: on Amazon, look at these books. They use AI to
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: even make the cover, and it says, say, if you
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: write a book about about Smashing Pumpkins, I guess you
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: feed it a picture of Billy Corgan and what comes
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: back is a picture of someone that looks like Billy Corgan.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: But it's not Billy Corgan, right, And there's people that
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: put out books like this, which I don't understand how
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: that's even allowed. That makes no sense.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I will admit full full honesty. I mean I
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: use AI for various things. I use AI to help
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: with like the social media posts and because there's so
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: many things that I have to do and those things
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: that don't really require my writing for I'm cool with.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: I use it to help with the new logo and
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: stuff like that. So there's there's ways you can use
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: it to your advantage.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's just like pretty much anything, it's you know,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: how you use it. If you use it as a tool,
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: I'm absolutely all for it. If you use it to
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: write a whole entire book or to you know, make up,
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: but like a cover that looks like a guy that
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: looks like David ly Roth, but it's not David ly Roth.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: That to me just makes no sense.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: It doesn't it's just wrong. Yeah, but I I do
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: use it. I read, I read through these books. But
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: also I find I've been using it to to to
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: throw throw a question at AI and say, hey, here's
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: the book, you know, can you give me some questions
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: and I'll see maybe maybe there'll be something in there
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: that I never Oh, that's right, I think of asking
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: so if you utilize it in the right way and
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: you put it all together with your But at the
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: end of the day, it's still going to be it's
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: it's human beings that are going to connect the best.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: And uh yeah, I don't know, who knows. We'll see
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: where it goes. But you're you're not going anywhere anytime soon.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: Well, thank you, thank you. I appreciate that.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: And having said all that, I'm not really Eric Sentich,
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: I'm an AI created version of it, no kid, I'm
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: the real deal, all right, man. Thanks Thanks Greg as always,
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: and we'll see you again down the road. I don't
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: know if you want to tease us with any up coming.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, well, you know what, let's just say I have
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: a book coming out in the summer, and I actually
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: have maybe a book or two coming out around around
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: also Christmas time. But the book in the summer, I
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: will tell you, is about one of the eighties top
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: pop bands.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: In the summer. Okay, one of the eighties top pop bands. Yes, okay,
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: so it's a full book on new kids on the block.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: How about that?
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: Huh you got it?
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: All right? Well, hey, I know you'll you'll be getting
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: me posting on it, so yes, cool man, all right, Greg.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Eric Audios.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: That's it. It's in the books.