Latest / The Living Waters Podcast / Ep. 176 - Taming the Rebel: How to Respond Righteously to Rebellious Children

Transcript

Ep. 176 - Taming the Rebel: How to Respond Righteously to Rebellious Children · The Living Waters Podcast

• 1:04
  Oscar Navarro: I think about this often because I think there's a tendency in Christianity, especially with those in leadership, but I think all of Christianity, that our kids can easily become a trophy to our sanctification, where it's like, well, look at my kid, they're so well read, they've got the Bible versus, they've got, you know, the Westminster Catechism.
• 1:20
  Oscar Navarro: First five, met, met, memorized, they're serving their blah, blah, blah.
• 1:23
  Oscar Navarro: And there's this feeling of look, here's a physical representation of my sanctification process.
• 1:30
  Oscar Navarro: But the reality is that we were talking about pride two episodes ago.
• 1:34
  Oscar Navarro: It's so easy to forget about grace because if you do all of the truisms, truism is something that you know, and Apple a day keeps the doctor away.
• 1:43
  Oscar Navarro: Is it guaranteed?
• 1:44
  Oscar Navarro: No, it's a true ism.
• 1:45
  Oscar Navarro: The intent is for you to live a healthy life in the way that you eat.
• 1:49
  Oscar Navarro: The scriptures give us true isms for the way we parent, but they are not guarantees.
• 1:55
  Oscar Navarro: And often I think we look at our children as we forget about grace and that if they grew up and they, you know, all 10 or all three or all four are saved, then we're like, ah, look, i should write a book on parenting.
• 2:10
  Oscar Navarro: You know I, here's a, here's the trophy to my sanctification.
• 2:14
  Oscar Navarro: And then when we hear about other people's kids who are not in the faith, we're like, hmm, you know, did they what, where?
• 2:20
  Oscar Navarro: how did they school their children?
• 2:22
  Oscar Navarro: Oh well, how, what, what?
• 2:23
  Oscar Navarro: were they really living authentic Christian lives?
• 2:26
  Oscar Navarro: Did they evangelize?
• 2:27
  Oscar Navarro: It lacks grace.
• 2:28
  Oscar Navarro: We forget what you just said, which is that without the faithful work of Christ, none of our kids are going to be saved.
• 2:44
  Emeal Zwayne: They say that the third times a charm friends.
• 2:47
  Emeal Zwayne: So, being that the first two times we had him on, we're woefully miserable.
• 2:51
  Emeal Zwayne: We're convinced that today our good friend Patrick Nemmers will help us garner at least one download for today's podcast.
• 3:02
  Oscar Navarro: By the way, if you don't know Pat, when he starts making fun of you in that way, that means you're, you're in.
• 3:06
  Oscar Navarro: That's his lovely Yeah, totally.
• 3:07
  Oscar Navarro: That's his lovely, okay, totally.
• 3:08
  Oscar Navarro: I've been making fun of him for years.
• 3:11
  Emeal Zwayne: He's been in for a long time.
• 3:12
  Emeal Zwayne: However, friends, i said our audience would go to one download, which would double it, but if Pat recruits all of his and Maryland's billions of children and grandchildren to listen, we will set a record for downloads today, no question about it.
• 3:29
  Emeal Zwayne: Ladies and gentlemen, here with us again is the legendary Nemmers, who, by the way, can't play basketball to save his life.
• 3:37
  Pat Nemmers: Oh wow, that was low, that was not.
• 3:40
  Emeal Zwayne: That was low.
• 3:40
  Emeal Zwayne: And, by the way, oscar, he has an indoor court.
• 3:44
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh, really, he does, i do.
• 3:46
  Emeal Zwayne: Are you a Hooper?
• 3:47
  Oscar Navarro: I am a Hooper.
• 3:47
  Oscar Navarro: No, easy's not.
• 3:49
  Emeal Zwayne: Well, easy.
• 3:51
  Pat Nemmers: And I played one game of basketball together and I think he he hit one right on my head.
• 3:55
  Pat Nemmers: And that's where he gets his evidence that I'm not that good of a basketball player.
• 4:00
  Pat Nemmers: I was a wrestler and wrestlers end up playing end up wrestling when they play basketball.
• 4:04
  Ray Comfort: It's just way it goes.
• 4:05
  Ray Comfort: Pretty mind, brother, you're still a wrestler.
• 4:06
  Pat Nemmers: Yeah, you're still a wrestler for Jesus.
• 4:07
  Pat Nemmers: You still ballin' Pat.
• 4:08
  Pat Nemmers: by the way, yeah, on Mondays I do.
• 4:10
  Pat Nemmers: I've got my right knee has had a number of surgeries and it's just I'm.
• 4:16
  Pat Nemmers: it's been through, it's told.
• 4:17
  Oscar Navarro: Well, I really need to come visit you guys because I play and I'd love to hoop on a Monday night with you.
• 4:22
  Oscar Navarro: That sounds like fun.
• 4:23
  Pat Nemmers: Oh man, we've got some stallions on our staff, and one of them I think we're going to talk about today is a tremendous basketball player, john.
• 4:32
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh yeah, we'll have to talk about him.
• 4:33
  Emeal Zwayne: But yeah, friends, we got Pat back, pat.
• 4:37
  Emeal Zwayne: let me just say the last two episodes we did were a huge blessing to me.
• 4:42
  Emeal Zwayne: I mean, we've been doing this.
• 4:43
  Emeal Zwayne: I think that these are like we're up in the 170s in terms of 200 episodes.
• 4:47
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, we're starting to near 200 episodes, but you know we rarely have guests on.
• 4:51
  Emeal Zwayne: Actually, We may start doing that more, or you're one of a few that have come on and you know we do a lot of these.
• 4:59
  Emeal Zwayne: We get encouraged while we do them.
• 5:00
  Emeal Zwayne: But the last two have been special for me, I think, because I know you.
• 5:04
  Emeal Zwayne: I've read your book, obviously, but I've seen your life and I know that what's written in the book matches the life that you live and it just means so much to me.
• 5:15
  Emeal Zwayne: And we we talked about some, some important things, some heavy things, And today we're going to talk about more heavy things, but a great ending to something extremely heavy that you went through.
• 5:29
  Pat Nemmers: An ending I don't put in the book, by the way.
• 5:31
  Emeal Zwayne: I leave everybody hanging on that, yeah, so you're going to give us the ending today.
• 5:34
  Emeal Zwayne: I will if you ask me.
• 5:35
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we will.
• 5:36
  Emeal Zwayne: So, yeah, pat, we're just so blessed to have you back.
• 5:39
  Emeal Zwayne: Thanks for leaving Iowa, coming all the way out here.
• 5:41
  Emeal Zwayne: Thanks for those of you that have listened to the last two episodes with Pat.
• 5:45
  Emeal Zwayne: You've got to check them out.
• 5:46
  Emeal Zwayne: You're going to be edified, encouraged and built up right How to, how to have humility after humiliation and how to be a person who can strike back when tragedy strikes.
• 6:00
  Emeal Zwayne: And today we're going to talk about taming the rebel, how to respond righteously to rebellious children.
• 6:06
  Emeal Zwayne: And it seems like, more than ever, Pat, people have a lot of stuff to deal with with rebellious children.
• 6:13
  Emeal Zwayne: It seems like the, the, the online age has kind of made the world smaller, has given more examples of rebellion for young people to follow.
• 6:24
  Emeal Zwayne: Not that it wasn't there in the heart before, but we're seeing.
• 6:26
  Emeal Zwayne: We're seeing it manifested all the more.
• 6:28
  Emeal Zwayne: So, yeah, we want to talk about that.
• 6:31
  Emeal Zwayne: And, friends, a lot of this is based on Pat's book that you heard about in the last two episodes retractions, cultivating humility after humiliation And you could get this at Amazon probably the easiest place to get it right, pat, yeah, yeah, check it out there.
• 6:44
  Emeal Zwayne: It's been doing really well.
• 6:46
  Emeal Zwayne: We talked about how Tim Chalice put it on his top and there's only 10 books on that list the top books that he selected for 2022.
• 6:54
  Emeal Zwayne: What's amazing, is he?
• 6:55
  Oscar Navarro: only read seven books that year.
• 6:57
  Emeal Zwayne: Pat's was not one of them.
• 6:58
  Emeal Zwayne: He just kind of winged it on that that plug.
• 7:01
  Emeal Zwayne: But anyhow, check the book out, and today we're going to get into some of that.
• 7:05
  Emeal Zwayne: But before that, friends, one of your comments.
• 7:08
  Emeal Zwayne: this is from Matteo Allen, Much appreciated.
• 7:12
  Emeal Zwayne: I love listening to you guys while I clean or drive around for my business.
• 7:16
  Emeal Zwayne: You guys have the perfect and different personalities for this.
• 7:20
  Emeal Zwayne: Also, I was completely transformed in how I share my faith almost 20 years ago by Ray.
• 7:25
  Emeal Zwayne: I'm eternally grateful for you, brother.
• 7:27
  Emeal Zwayne: Your example is encouraging.
• 7:28
  Emeal Zwayne: Two other three guys are all right too.
• 7:33
  Ray Comfort: He's talking also about Mark Spence not with us today, and we missing great things.
• 7:36
  Emeal Zwayne: Mark was not on the last couple of episodes.
• 7:38
  Oscar Navarro: Best episodes we ever had, yeah.
• 7:41
  Ray Comfort: Where is he, mark?
• 7:42
  Ray Comfort: Where did he go Down to the table, Mark?
• 7:44
  Ray Comfort: Yeah?
• 7:47
  Emeal Zwayne: Mark went to Michigan to speak at an event out there and we miss him, but he'll be back soon enough.
• 7:52
  Emeal Zwayne: All right, friends, make sure to check out Tough Questions.
• 7:56
  Emeal Zwayne: Apologetics Made Simple.
• 7:57
  Emeal Zwayne: It's a course that we have with Ray, mark and myself.
• 8:01
  Emeal Zwayne: It's five sessions, approximately 25 minutes each, on three DVDs.
• 8:05
  Emeal Zwayne: You get all kinds of good stuff on there.
• 8:07
  Emeal Zwayne: You get a study guide.
• 8:08
  Emeal Zwayne: You get 400 gospel tracks that tackle tough questions, promotional videos, printable bulletin and certain posters.
• 8:14
  Emeal Zwayne: Also, if you don't want to get the DVD version, you can get the MP4 version available through download as well.
• 8:21
  Emeal Zwayne: Don't forget the Living Waters podcast Mug.
• 8:23
  Emeal Zwayne: It's pretty good.
• 8:25
  Emeal Zwayne: We have an study Bible at Living Waters.
• 8:28
  Emeal Zwayne: Ah, rebellious children.
• 8:31
  Emeal Zwayne: Ray has three.
• 8:32
  Emeal Zwayne: One of them is my wife.
• 8:35
  Emeal Zwayne: Oscar has got three children.
• 8:37
  Ray Comfort: I am the rebellious.
• 8:39
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, oscar was a rebel.
• 8:40
  Emeal Zwayne: And, pat, i talked about your billions of children, grandchildren, between you and Marilyn.
• 8:46
  Emeal Zwayne: We heard your story in the last podcast.
• 8:48
  Emeal Zwayne: You are a blended family, we are, you're both.
• 8:53
  Emeal Zwayne: I mean, you're a widower, marilyn was a widow, so how many children and grandchildren between the two of you?
• 9:02
  Pat Nemmers: So a family picture of us is sort of a you could use it for where's Waldo Just?
• 9:07
  Pat Nemmers: looking for me in the picture now.
• 9:08
  Pat Nemmers: So I had seven children going into our marriage.
• 9:12
  Pat Nemmers: She had three, so we have 10.
• 9:17
  Pat Nemmers: And we were married in 1997.
• 9:19
  Pat Nemmers: So 26 years ago And we now have 37 grandkids, with one on the way.
• 9:25
  Pat Nemmers: Wow.
• 9:27
  Oscar Navarro: So that's a church.
• 9:29
  Pat Nemmers: Yeah, we can fill up a pew.
• 9:31
  Emeal Zwayne: That's how your church grew.
• 9:32
  Emeal Zwayne: Are the odds that you guys will eventually crack 40 at this?
• 9:36
  Pat Nemmers: place.
• 9:36
  Pat Nemmers: Well, by that time we might be into grand.
• 9:40
  Pat Nemmers: We'll see.
• 9:43
  Pat Nemmers: I'll say it's possible.
• 9:44
  Pat Nemmers: I don't know if it's probable.
• 9:46
  Pat Nemmers: We're coming to the end.
• 9:47
  Emeal Zwayne: I think of the grandchildren.
• 9:48
  Emeal Zwayne: Okay, so oldest and youngest, Name them all.
• 9:53
  Pat Nemmers: Yeah, how much time does this pocket?
• 9:57
  Pat Nemmers: So the oldest is 17, almost 18.
• 10:00
  Pat Nemmers: And the youngest is just a couple of months old.
• 10:06
  Emeal Zwayne: Wow, so you literally are close to potential great-grandparent.
• 10:10
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, we are.
• 10:13
  Emeal Zwayne: Well, i mean hopefully within the next decade.
• 10:15
  Pat Nemmers: Yeah, Ray has fought the whole grandfather, great-grandfather.
• 10:19
  Ray Comfort: Are you getting jealous right now?
• 10:21
  Emeal Zwayne: I think he's got a wife to me.
• 10:23
  Emeal Zwayne: What was?
• 10:23
  Ray Comfort: that Remind me.
• 10:23
  Ray Comfort: She turned the first baby, julie, around at me and said there's gramps.
• 10:28
  Ray Comfort: And I thought I'm not ready for that.
• 10:30
  Ray Comfort: I'm just turned whatever I was, i'm not ready for the rock and tear on the veranda, so I tried, super dad and forefather.
• 10:37
  Ray Comfort: I've been stuck with grandpa.
• 10:41
  Pat Nemmers: Forefather The old-fashioned name grandpa.
• 10:46
  Emeal Zwayne: We're Nana and Papa.
• 10:47
  Emeal Zwayne: We're close.
• 10:50
  Pat Nemmers: Ah, there you go, There you go.
• 10:51
  Pat Nemmers: It's a joy.
• 10:53
  Pat Nemmers: Most of our kids live near us almost all of them, except for we have one that's planted a church out in Illinois.
• 10:59
  Pat Nemmers: He's about five hours away, Otherwise the whole clan is within a half hour of us.
• 11:03
  Pat Nemmers: That's pretty cool.
• 11:05
  Oscar Navarro: I know about kids I'm the only one that's not a grandpa here But my youngest daughter.
• 11:08
  Oscar Navarro: Last night in our prayers, in her prayer of thankfulness, she goes.
• 11:12
  Oscar Navarro: Thank you God for a house, because not not everyone have homes they live in And we also recognize that not everyone has ever had in and out.
• 11:22
  Pat Nemmers: Oh wow, yeah, That's actually frightening.
• 11:27
  Ray Comfort: Mark Spence is going to enjoy this.
• 11:29
  Emeal Zwayne: Our daughter had just sent this yesterday.
• 11:31
  Emeal Zwayne: She said yesterday had and saw Noah Spence, who's Mark's son, and asked him where his boat was.
• 11:38
  Emeal Zwayne: He was starstruck when he saw Noah too, like he couldn't believe he was talking to Noah Where your boat, where your boat?
• 11:50
  Emeal Zwayne: I love it, man, but the joy, huh Pat, that children and grandchildren bring, especially when they're serving the Lord and love God.
• 12:01
  Pat Nemmers: I preached this sermon a few years ago and I put up the family photo one of the most recent at that time, which is sort of overwhelming to everyone when you put it up on a screen.
• 12:10
  Pat Nemmers: And I want to be careful, i don't want to exploit them too much, but I did it with a purpose.
• 12:15
  Pat Nemmers: I said this is my family.
• 12:16
  Pat Nemmers: Some people were clapping.
• 12:18
  Pat Nemmers: I didn't do it for that intention, i said, and I stopped and I walked toward the screen and stared at it for a little while.
• 12:24
  Pat Nemmers: I said there are 30, some individuals in this, 30, some grandchildren.
• 12:29
  Pat Nemmers: I said I don't know their futures, i don't know if all of them will become Christians, i don't know what struggles they face.
• 12:38
  Pat Nemmers: God does.
• 12:38
  Pat Nemmers: But it was my little intro into what I often call cake box parenting, which is, if you want to make a cake, you could say cake box.
• 12:52
  Pat Nemmers: Not kick box, cake box.
• 12:53
  Pat Nemmers: If you turn the cake box around, you see the recipe, you grease the pan, you put the eggs and flour in and you turn the oven to 350, and you mix it all together and you're going to get a cake every time, right Cake box.
• 13:08
  Pat Nemmers: Parenting is a form of Christianity, it says if I do everything just thus and so, that guarantees my children will come to know Jesus, we certainly hope and pray to that end, do we not?
• 13:18
  Pat Nemmers: But last I checked, we are chosen from the foundation of the world.
• 13:24
  Pat Nemmers: There's this.
• 13:24
  Pat Nemmers: There.
• 13:25
  Pat Nemmers: Our theology comes into play here.
• 13:27
  Pat Nemmers: I cannot save my children.
• 13:29
  Pat Nemmers: I can't save them, i can't sanctify them.
• 13:32
  Pat Nemmers: I can do everything I can as a parent to live for Jesus and to be a parent, a consistent, albeit imperfect life in the hopes that they'll come to Jesus.
• 13:43
  Pat Nemmers: And I'm thankful that my children have all laid claim to Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior and almost all of them are living a very full and dedicated Christian life.
• 13:55
  Pat Nemmers: But I've had some struggles with a couple of them and that might be the lead and I don't want to take anything off of your plate here.
• 14:03
  Emeal Zwayne: My way of questions.
• 14:04
  Emeal Zwayne: But let's first talk about that, because I think that a lot of times there is this disconnect between our sentiment about what our children should be and reality in terms of us living in a fallen, broken world and that salvation is of the Lord, like you alluded to.
• 14:26
  Emeal Zwayne: It's not about this, this formula that I love, the cake box analogy you used But it's about being sure to not circumnavigate the process that God often uses to bring our children to repentance.
• 14:41
  Emeal Zwayne: I mean Ray, you've talked about this often the whole say the prayer thing.
• 14:46
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, it's easy to get decisions from children.
• 14:48
  Ray Comfort: I'm not boasting here, but if you give me 100 kids in a hall, i could get 99 of them to give their hearts to Jesus within one minute.
• 14:55
  Ray Comfort: Just say okay, does anyone tell me how you get to heaven?
• 14:59
  Ray Comfort: Yes, tommy, it gives your heart to Jesus.
• 15:01
  Ray Comfort: Okay, who wants to go to heaven?
• 15:02
  Ray Comfort: Raise your hands And there you go.
• 15:04
  Ray Comfort: 100 decisions for 99, because the kid down there isn't listening.
• 15:08
  Ray Comfort: But that's the problem, and it's a lack of understanding what salvation is.
• 15:14
  Ray Comfort: Salvation is the law.
• 15:15
  Ray Comfort: There must be a knowledge of sin.
• 15:17
  Ray Comfort: There must be genuine contrition, god-given repentance, cleanse your hands, your sin is, purify your heart, your double mind, and let your life be turned to mourning and your joy to heaviness.
• 15:25
  Ray Comfort: You don't say that to a four, five-year-old kid because they've got no understanding.
• 15:28
  Ray Comfort: So no, that was that.
• 15:30
  Oscar Navarro: So, it was just a filler, So that was your way of saying Oscar, say something.
• 15:35
  Oscar Navarro: Yeah, i think about this often because I think there's a tendency in Christianity, especially with those in leadership, but I think all of Christianity that our kids can easily become a trophy to our sanctification, where it's like well, look at my kid, they're so well read, they've got the Bible versus, they've got the Westminster Catechism first five memorized.
• 15:54
  Oscar Navarro: they're serving, they're blah, blah and there's this feeling of, look, here's a physical representation of my sanctification process.
• 16:02
  Oscar Navarro: But the reality is that we were talking about pride two episodes ago.
• 16:07
  Oscar Navarro: It's so easy to forget about grace because if you do all of the truisms, truism is something that you know an apple a day keeps the doctor away.
• 16:16
  Oscar Navarro: Is it guaranteed?
• 16:17
  Oscar Navarro: No, it's a truism.
• 16:18
  Oscar Navarro: The intent is for you to live a healthy life in the way that you eat.
• 16:22
  Oscar Navarro: The scriptures give us truisms for the way we parent, but they are not guarantees.
• 16:28
  Oscar Navarro: And often I think we look at our children as we forget about grace and that if they grew up and they, you know all 10 or all three or all four are saved, then we're like, ah, look, i should write a book on parenting.
• 16:43
  Oscar Navarro: You know I, here's the trophy to my sanctification.
• 16:47
  Oscar Navarro: And then when we hear about other people's kids who are not in the faith, we're like you know.
• 16:52
  Oscar Navarro: did they where?
• 16:53
  Oscar Navarro: how did they school their children?
• 16:55
  Oscar Navarro: Oh well, how were they really living authentic Christian lives?
• 16:59
  Oscar Navarro: Did they evangelize?
• 17:00
  Oscar Navarro: It lacks grace.
• 17:01
  Oscar Navarro: We forget what you just said, which is that without the faithful work of Christ, none of our kids are going to be saved.
• 17:08
  Oscar Navarro: We have to depend wholly and solely on his workmanship.
• 17:13
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, and you know, i think a part of that formula that sometimes people will look at is connected to verses that are misunderstood in terms of of their intent And that would be like truisms that we see in the proverbs.
• 17:26
  Emeal Zwayne: You know, bring up a child in the way that he shall go, and even when he'll he's old, he won't depart from it.
• 17:29
  Emeal Zwayne: And so some parents will look and say, well, look, we did everything.
• 17:33
  Emeal Zwayne: And we, you know, we taught in the ways of the Lord.
• 17:35
  Emeal Zwayne: They went to church the day they were born.
• 17:36
  Emeal Zwayne: Literally, we took him to service.
• 17:38
  Emeal Zwayne: You know, we this and that And they're not.
• 17:41
  Emeal Zwayne: Oh, we must have done something wrong.
• 17:42
  Emeal Zwayne: We must have.
• 17:42
  Emeal Zwayne: No, that's a truism, right, and and, and we can parse it out and look at the application of that, But but we have to be careful.
• 17:49
  Emeal Zwayne: You know, my favorite book and we've talked about it here before is is the book by Ted Tripp, shepherding a Child's Heart, and in there he talks about shaping influences, and those are the influences provided by parents, like raising them up in the fear and admonition of the Lord, teaching them the word, being godly parents, not living hypocritical lives, so on and so forth, but in the final analysis he touches on something called Godward orientation And that is that particular child and and what's going on in their heart and all the spiritual dynamics connected to that.
• 18:22
  Emeal Zwayne: So so we have to understand that every family is different, every child is different, every circumstance is different And we just have to be careful that we don't just try to rush to get our kids saved.
• 18:34
  Emeal Zwayne: And and, ray, i've mentioned this before on the podcast as well One of the sweet things with Rachel is that, because you held up God's law before your kids, it ended up leading Rachel in particular to Christ that day when she finally realized she couldn't stop being horrible to her brothers.
• 18:50
  Ray Comfort: Well, she's saving a right, yeah.
• 18:52
  Emeal Zwayne: But she came here.
• 18:53
  Emeal Zwayne: she said she like realized I can't love my brothers a way that I know I should.
• 18:57
  Emeal Zwayne: There's some, there's sin inside of me, and that led her to come to you and and Sue, and say I need the Lord.
• 19:04
  Emeal Zwayne: And it brought her to genuine faith.
• 19:06
  Emeal Zwayne: Oscar, are you going to say something I was just going to say?
• 19:08
  Emeal Zwayne: Ray was like I can't love them either.
• 19:11
  Pat Nemmers: Help me, lord.
• 19:12
  Pat Nemmers: I heard a theologian say once it was really impressive to me that no child can be saved unless they understand some aspect of substitution.
• 19:22
  Pat Nemmers: So you know we talked about Christ died for our sins.
• 19:27
  Pat Nemmers: To some degree a child must understand that.
• 19:30
  Pat Nemmers: Now we have to balance that with Jesus' own words in Matthew 18, unless you become like a child and be converted.
• 19:38
  Pat Nemmers: And remember he said in Luke's Gospel, let the little children come to me.
• 19:42
  Pat Nemmers: So there is that sense.
• 19:44
  Pat Nemmers: I completely agree with what you said.
• 19:46
  Pat Nemmers: I mean I I've been there and done that, i've been the evangelist in in children's camps where you know I could just say raise your hand.
• 19:52
  Pat Nemmers: And they're all going to raise their hand.
• 19:53
  Pat Nemmers: You know, but do they understand substitutionary atonement?
• 19:57
  Pat Nemmers: on some level They got to understand that Christ died on behalf of their sins or they'll never be saved.
• 20:03
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, yeah, it's very true, and I think a lot of parents on the other side of all of this shortchanged their kids because they underestimate how much they can really understand, how much they can grasp And let me just say, for those of you listening, there are creative ways to teach your children truths, especially at a young age, that can be radically impactful.
• 20:25
  Emeal Zwayne: You know, I've shared before with our kids.
• 20:27
  Emeal Zwayne: We did this thing.
• 20:29
  Emeal Zwayne: It was this series called Family Night, Treasure Chest and or Tool Chest, And it had all these ideas of different things you can do.
• 20:36
  Emeal Zwayne: And so one day I told Rachel, before I left, and I got the idea from the book hey, when I'm gone today and the kids misbehave, don't discipline them, Just write down what they did.
• 20:48
  Emeal Zwayne: And when I come home we'll deal with it.
• 20:49
  Emeal Zwayne: And so, of course, I get home in the evening and a list about a mile long hits me.
• 20:53
  Emeal Zwayne: So I walk through the door.
• 20:54
  Emeal Zwayne: She really took note that what I told her to do, And so I set up a courtroom scenario in the living room.
• 21:01
  Emeal Zwayne: That evening I put on the bathroom I was a judge, You know, brought at the table for the judge's bench, brought out a meat tenderizer for the gavel, you know, and we brought out the criminals little Julia's Wayne, little Summer's Wayne, And Mama Rachel was the eyewitness who testified to their crimes.
• 21:19
  Emeal Zwayne: And so we had court in our living room, you know.
• 21:22
  Emeal Zwayne: And then the kids were laughing.
• 21:24
  Emeal Zwayne: Hey, this is really fun and cute, you know.
• 21:26
  Emeal Zwayne: And so then I brought the gavel down and I said okay, you know, Julia's Wayne, you pled guilty, or guilty.
• 21:35
  Emeal Zwayne: Summer's Wayne, same thing.
• 21:36
  Emeal Zwayne: Tomorrow, the consequences for your crime are going to be that you have no sweets, no snacks, no desserts, only your breakfast, lunch, dinner and water.
• 21:46
  Emeal Zwayne: At the end of the evening we're going to sit down and we're going to have a delicious dessert and you're going to have to sit there and watch us as we eat it.
• 21:54
  Emeal Zwayne: And suddenly it went from hey to no.
• 21:58
  Emeal Zwayne: You know, they were just just miserable.
• 22:00
  Emeal Zwayne: So then I came from behind the benches the judge's bench, took off the robe and I looked at them.
• 22:07
  Emeal Zwayne: I said kids, as a judge, I had to be just in past sentence, but as your father, tomorrow I'm taking your consequences upon myself.
• 22:16
  Emeal Zwayne: Tomorrow, I get no snacks, sweets, desserts, only breakfast, lunch and dinner.
• 22:20
  Emeal Zwayne: And then we're going to sit down and you guys are going to have that delicious dessert while I sit there and watch you eat it.
• 22:25
  Emeal Zwayne: No, dad, we're the guilty ones, You shouldn't have to bear that.
• 22:30
  Emeal Zwayne: And so I said kids, this is.
• 22:32
  Emeal Zwayne: And then we did it that night, the next day, and they were like sitting there with tear streaming down their face trying to give me their dessert.
• 22:38
  Emeal Zwayne: You know, moves me as I think about it, And so I was able to draw the analogy and I was able to save them kids.
• 22:44
  Emeal Zwayne: This is what the Lord did for us.
• 22:46
  Emeal Zwayne: We violated His law, We broke His commandments.
• 22:48
  Emeal Zwayne: We deserve His wrath and judgment, but then Jesus left the heights of heaven and took our place That substitutionary tome you're talking about and rose again from the dead.
• 22:59
  Emeal Zwayne: And if we repent and place our faith in Him, then we're free.
• 23:02
  Emeal Zwayne: And it was so amazing because my daughter, Julia, who's a school teacher now at a Christian school, she called me recently and said Hey, dad, I'm going to do that with the kids in class.
• 23:11
  Emeal Zwayne: Can you remind me of some of the detail, and they'll never forget it for the rest of their life.
• 23:16
  Emeal Zwayne: So that's powerful.
• 23:17
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, there are ways that we can convey that truth to our kids.
• 23:21
  Emeal Zwayne: That's powerful.
• 23:22
  Oscar Navarro: On that note, i'd love to get into that rebellious child that even when you raise them up and God's Word and in His truth and in the church and Pat you get into detail.
• 23:33
  Oscar Navarro: You had a problem child.
• 23:35
  Oscar Navarro: I don't know if we want to call that.
• 23:37
  Oscar Navarro: It sounds kind of rude.
• 23:37
  Oscar Navarro: but John, yeah, let me just read this excerpt and then I'd love for you as to fill us in and tell the story.
• 23:44
  Oscar Navarro: So you say in the chapter titled John, when he was little, john had been easy and compliant.
• 23:50
  Oscar Navarro: He was so quiet He could almost go unnoticed around the house.
• 23:54
  Oscar Navarro: Like most boys, he loved sports and loved to play.
• 23:57
  Oscar Navarro: He also had lots of friends.
• 23:58
  Oscar Navarro: Although his grades in school were never very good, he was not a problem child until within just a short time, he became one.
• 24:06
  Oscar Navarro: Tell us that story, john.
• 24:08
  Oscar Navarro: about a John, pat about John, maybe the squad car moment and then what it looks like to disciple and pray for a kid out of that.
• 24:17
  Pat Nemmers: Yeah, well, and he was named after me.
• 24:19
  Pat Nemmers: My name is Patrick John.
• 24:21
  Pat Nemmers: His name is John Patrick.
• 24:22
  Pat Nemmers: So it's your fault.
• 24:24
  Pat Nemmers: Yeah, so it is my fault.
• 24:25
  Pat Nemmers: Well, to some degree anyway, and I look back on my years of parenting, and they weren't perfect.
• 24:36
  Pat Nemmers: I mean, i do have regrets.
• 24:39
  Oscar Navarro: What's the worst thing?
• 24:39
  Pat Nemmers: you did No, i'm joking Well that might take another podcast, but with John, yeah, that's exactly right, that's how I read it, wrote it, that is.
• 24:47
  Pat Nemmers: And then about the time he was in seventh or eighth grade, he just became very distant.
• 24:53
  Pat Nemmers: We first noticed it during our family time that easy alluded to.
• 24:57
  Pat Nemmers: We did fun things too.
• 24:59
  Pat Nemmers: When they were little they'd reenact stories like David and Goliath.
• 25:03
  Pat Nemmers: There's a lot of fun things and demonstrative things that they would remember And they go back and remember these family times.
• 25:09
  Pat Nemmers: In fact, for 20 years, every Sunday night about 9.30 at night, everybody had to be back home, whatever they were throwing to the wind, going out with friends, whatever after church or whatever youth group.
• 25:21
  Pat Nemmers: They came back at 9.30, and we all all 12 of us gathered together in our living room And we had to talk.
• 25:27
  Pat Nemmers: Everybody had to say something, some highlight of the day.
• 25:30
  Pat Nemmers: It could have been a song that was sung, it could have been an encounter in the foyer, it could have been something they learned in Sunday school and God forbid, it might be something they heard their dad preach.
• 25:38
  Pat Nemmers: But and it was fun, and we talked about this back and forth and we didn't say now it's your turn, and now it's your turn.
• 25:45
  Pat Nemmers: We actually said, you know, almost 90 to 100% of the time they all participated, but we made it so that you didn't have to talk if you didn't feel like it.
• 25:55
  Pat Nemmers: And we first noticed that John quit talking.
• 25:58
  Pat Nemmers: He, he just quit saying anything.
• 26:02
  Pat Nemmers: I can remember one time he did say something.
• 26:04
  Pat Nemmers: It was so minuscule but I was so excited that he said something that he was, that he got, and actually it was an encounter with a guy.
• 26:11
  Pat Nemmers: He goes so and so talk to me in the foyer and I just thought that was really cool.
• 26:16
  Pat Nemmers: Wow.
• 26:16
  Pat Nemmers: And I said two things were going on.
• 26:19
  Pat Nemmers: I'm glad for the guy who talked to him.
• 26:21
  Pat Nemmers: And secondly, where is my son going?
• 26:25
  Pat Nemmers: And he's probably about 12.
• 26:29
  Pat Nemmers: Okay, and so he just kept getting darker.
• 26:34
  Pat Nemmers: Choosing his friends were not good friends and we'd have these conversations.
• 26:38
  Pat Nemmers: Not try to be too rough on him.
• 26:40
  Pat Nemmers: But and then there, just there was a.
• 26:43
  Pat Nemmers: There was a perfect storm of situations.
• 26:45
  Pat Nemmers: Like friends he didn't.
• 26:46
  Pat Nemmers: There was hardly any godly boys in the school he was going to do.
• 26:50
  Pat Nemmers: It was a Christian school and it was just a real struggle.
• 26:54
  Pat Nemmers: Fast forward, we saw some anger coming out of him and he was just the most compliant, quiet boy.
• 27:01
  Pat Nemmers: Suddenly he became an angry boy.
• 27:03
  Pat Nemmers: And then it happened.
• 27:05
  Pat Nemmers: I'd heard something about it, but I wasn't sure if it was true or not.
• 27:09
  Pat Nemmers: And one day I looked out in the driveway and a police car pulled up and I thought, wow, a police car is in our driveway.
• 27:14
  Pat Nemmers: What's this all about?
• 27:16
  Pat Nemmers: And by this time John is now 15, almost 16 years old.
• 27:19
  Pat Nemmers: The police car comes out, police man comes into.
• 27:23
  Pat Nemmers: The policeman comes into our home.
• 27:25
  Pat Nemmers: He asked if John was around.
• 27:26
  Pat Nemmers: I asked John to come out of his bedroom, came out of his bedroom and I noticed his knuckles were all red.
• 27:31
  Pat Nemmers: And he asked if he had gotten into a fight the night before.
• 27:36
  Pat Nemmers: John just acknowledged right away.
• 27:37
  Pat Nemmers: He said yeah, he had.
• 27:38
  Pat Nemmers: Then He said, okay, well, i need you to come down to the police station.
• 27:41
  Pat Nemmers: And so I drove him down there.
• 27:43
  Pat Nemmers: I thought that would put the fear of God in him.
• 27:46
  Pat Nemmers: It was basically a hard slap on the hand with the warning if anything like this happened again, all of what he did in this fight he got into was going to come back on him.
• 27:54
  Pat Nemmers: Well, two weeks later he did the same thing.
• 27:58
  Pat Nemmers: Somebody looked at his girlfriend.
• 28:00
  Pat Nemmers: You know it really wasn't a egregious.
• 28:03
  Pat Nemmers: But John was very jealous, he was very angry.
• 28:06
  Pat Nemmers: He punched that man.
• 28:08
  Pat Nemmers: But this man punched him back And John went on the run.
• 28:13
  Pat Nemmers: The police were looking for him And he finally showed up.
• 28:19
  Pat Nemmers: We had to go back to the police station and this time the hardest thing I'd ever had to endure in the moment was to see him get arrested at age 16, taken away in handcuffs, put in a juvenile detention center for two weeks.
• 28:36
  Ray Comfort: And it was that for that second fight.
• 28:38
  Pat Nemmers: It was for the second fight, but the first one came.
• 28:40
  Pat Nemmers: The first one, which was worse, came back into play, storing up right.
• 28:43
  Pat Nemmers: It was an assault, so it was a federal offense, it was a major, major crime.
• 28:47
  Pat Nemmers: And so we went through all of the all the stuff trial, i mean.
• 28:55
  Pat Nemmers: It was very disheartening.
• 28:57
  Pat Nemmers: My heart was grieved.
• 28:58
  Pat Nemmers: I actually was ready to submit my resignation And this is in the middle of.
• 29:02
  Pat Nemmers: We'd planted it.
• 29:03
  Pat Nemmers: We were in the middle of planting our third church.
• 29:05
  Pat Nemmers: The church was growing exponentially.
• 29:07
  Pat Nemmers: Everything from the outside looked like success, success, success.
• 29:12
  Pat Nemmers: I was dying death by a thousand cuts every day because of my son John, and so really, what it came to?
• 29:20
  Pat Nemmers: and I was pleading, my wife and I, we were pleading in tears before God for him.
• 29:24
  Pat Nemmers: But I'll really came to that.
• 29:28
  Pat Nemmers: This is what it came to.
• 29:29
  Pat Nemmers: A couple several weeks earlier, we'd had a 26 year old woman die from cancer in our church, very sad, young mother of a couple of kids.
• 29:39
  Pat Nemmers: And that morning I had read Psalm 63, verse three, and I was really caught up in the.
• 29:44
  Pat Nemmers: It says your loving kindness, oh God, is better than life itself.
• 29:49
  Pat Nemmers: Therefore, my lips will praise you, and I sent that to the widower saying you know, i know you're grieving, i love you, brother.
• 29:58
  Pat Nemmers: May the loving kindness of God be even better than life itself with the death of your wife.
• 30:05
  Pat Nemmers: And he took solace.
• 30:06
  Pat Nemmers: He loved that.
• 30:07
  Pat Nemmers: And that verse continued to sort of you know, i don't know, just begin to grow on me.
• 30:17
  Pat Nemmers: And so now back to John.
• 30:19
  Pat Nemmers: He's back out of jail.
• 30:21
  Pat Nemmers: He's out of jail.
• 30:22
  Pat Nemmers: He's wearing an ankle bracelet because they want to keep their eye on him.
• 30:25
  Pat Nemmers: Now He has to stay close to home.
• 30:27
  Pat Nemmers: So it's pretty good.
• 30:27
  Pat Nemmers: But as time goes by, behavior modification doesn't save anybody.
• 30:33
  Pat Nemmers: And he's out trying to look to do other things.
• 30:37
  Pat Nemmers: He's out partying and so far as I know, he had to be back by 11 o'clock.
• 30:41
  Pat Nemmers: He wasn't.
• 30:44
  Pat Nemmers: It's Saturday night.
• 30:44
  Pat Nemmers: I'm preparing to preach 12 o'clock, one o'clock.
• 30:49
  Pat Nemmers: I'm texting.
• 30:50
  Pat Nemmers: I'm calling, he's not responding.
• 30:52
  Pat Nemmers: 2 am still not hearing from him.
• 30:56
  Pat Nemmers: I go to bed.
• 30:57
  Pat Nemmers: I'm lying in bed, maryland's next to me, my wife, she doesn't know, he's not home and I'm not about to tell her.
• 31:03
  Pat Nemmers: She's asleep.
• 31:04
  Pat Nemmers: And I'm pleading with God for the soul of my son, because he'd been warned if he got caught he'd be thrown into adult jail and it wouldn't be the same.
• 31:15
  Pat Nemmers: And I'm pleading with God, tears coursing down my cheeks, literally, and I'm telling you guys, i didn't hear anything audible, nothing.
• 31:27
  Pat Nemmers: I didn't have a charismatic experience, but I might as well have, because as I lay there in bed pleading with God, it's like God spoke to my heart because, off of that verse, your loving kindness is better, because the word better is a term of comparison.
• 31:40
  Pat Nemmers: It's better than life itself.
• 31:42
  Pat Nemmers: Therefore, my lips will praise you And I sense the Lord say you don't trust me.
• 31:48
  Pat Nemmers: And I literally talk about God.
• 31:51
  Pat Nemmers: Oh God, i trust you, i trust No, no, you don't.
• 31:54
  Pat Nemmers: No, i do.
• 31:55
  Pat Nemmers: No, you don't.
• 31:56
  Pat Nemmers: You tell everybody else to trust me, but just look at you.
• 32:01
  Pat Nemmers: You're demonstrating that you don't trust me.
• 32:04
  Pat Nemmers: And that stopped me.
• 32:07
  Pat Nemmers: That, just that thought.
• 32:08
  Pat Nemmers: And then I sensed again.
• 32:10
  Pat Nemmers: I'm not saying I heard a voice, i just I sensed the Lord saying to my spirit will you honor me more than the soul of your son?
• 32:21
  Pat Nemmers: Hmm, dang, will you love me more than the soul of your son?
• 32:26
  Pat Nemmers: And I'm telling you, guys, that broke me, because in that moment I realized, if it's possible, i made an idol out of the soul of my son.
• 32:35
  Pat Nemmers: I can't save him, i can't even hardly control him at this point, and so I repented, i realized and it had affected my vision of God, my walk with God, and I confessed it right there laying in bed.
• 32:52
  Pat Nemmers: I said God, i repent, i will love you and honor you, regardless of what you do with my son John, whether you choose to save him or not, i will honor you and forgive me for not doing so.
• 33:05
  Pat Nemmers: And I'm telling you, men, as God is my witness, i had peace, like I'd just gotten saved.
• 33:11
  Pat Nemmers: I mean, it just came right over me.
• 33:14
  Pat Nemmers: I fell asleep And John did not even come home that night.
• 33:18
  Pat Nemmers: In fact, things got worse before they got better.
• 33:22
  Pat Nemmers: He didn't go to adult jail, but nearly did.
• 33:24
  Pat Nemmers: But I had something We're talking about parenting right, rebellious children.
• 33:29
  Pat Nemmers: I had something I didn't have before that night Peace.
• 33:33
  Pat Nemmers: I had peace.
• 33:34
  Pat Nemmers: There were still anxious moments, there were still decisions that had to be made, there were still hard words that had to be shared, but he no longer controlled my soul.
• 33:45
  Pat Nemmers: Wow, he was not an idol anymore And I was freed up.
• 33:50
  Pat Nemmers: I was totally freed up, and So how was that expressed?
• 33:56
  Ray Comfort: Was it expressed in your joy, prayer life?
• 33:59
  Ray Comfort: Thank you, lord, that all things are working together for good.
• 34:02
  Ray Comfort: Your hand is upon them.
• 34:03
  Pat Nemmers: All that And then just not being held captive by the anxiety of what's next, what you know, when's the other shoe gonna fall?
• 34:13
  Pat Nemmers: with my son, john, i didn't live in that fear.
• 34:16
  Pat Nemmers: I had to deal with issues, but I didn't live in that fear any longer And John, i think, seemed to know it.
• 34:22
  Pat Nemmers: Now I kind of leave everybody hanging in the book, because I said that's for a different story, because after I wrote the book and the book came out, i had people coming back.
• 34:31
  Pat Nemmers: Whatever happened to John?
• 34:32
  Pat Nemmers: I mean, we see he's preaching today, you know.
• 34:35
  Pat Nemmers: So actually it was buddy.
• 34:37
  Oscar Navarro: Before we get that, because I wanna pause and sort of talk about that, that season, that moment where you were fathering a rebellious child.
• 34:47
  Oscar Navarro: How do you pursue rebellious children with the gospel?
• 34:53
  Oscar Navarro: What does love and discipleship, you know, whatever?
• 34:59
  Oscar Navarro: what does that look like?
• 35:01
  Oscar Navarro: What wisdom and counsel could you give a parent whose kid is in that season of life?
• 35:07
  Oscar Navarro: How do they pursue their children with the gospel?
• 35:09
  Pat Nemmers: Well, the answer to the question from my and I give this counsel quite often now is not to keep preaching the gospel to them.
• 35:20
  Pat Nemmers: Now, that sounds probably heretical to you, but if your children know the gospel clearly, you don't have to keep declaring it to them every day.
• 35:29
  Pat Nemmers: In fact, that just drives them farther away.
• 35:31
  Pat Nemmers: This is where you have to put on love.
• 35:34
  Pat Nemmers: I mean, we preach this, you know.
• 35:37
  Pat Nemmers: this is where Grace really does come in.
• 35:43
  Pat Nemmers: So John's a basketball player.
• 35:44
  Pat Nemmers: He's a really good.
• 35:44
  Pat Nemmers: he looks like a wrestler, plays like a basketball, but he's a basketball player And he's a.
• 35:49
  Pat Nemmers: I gotta hang out with this guy.
• 35:50
  Pat Nemmers: Yeah, he's a tremendous basketball player And he loved, always loved, basketball.
• 35:55
  Pat Nemmers: And while we played basketball three, four days a week in those days, and so I made sure that he always was invited because he would come.
• 36:04
  Pat Nemmers: That was the way I'd connect with him.
• 36:05
  Pat Nemmers: We didn't have lengthy conversations.
• 36:07
  Pat Nemmers: In fact, I remember he would come.
• 36:09
  Pat Nemmers: I still remember this It looked like a demon shirt that he wore Is this the ugliest shirt?
• 36:13
  Pat Nemmers: And I remember a guy we were playing with.
• 36:15
  Pat Nemmers: he'd say to John what do you got the demon shirt on for?
• 36:18
  Pat Nemmers: And they'd ask him and he'd just ignore him, you know.
• 36:20
  Pat Nemmers: But we played regularly and he would.
• 36:25
  Pat Nemmers: He looked forward to get that invitation.
• 36:27
  Pat Nemmers: I looked for opportunities to connect with him.
• 36:29
  Pat Nemmers: So I, you know, i'm not Billy Graham or even 18 generations close to him, but I did get opportunities to speak in lots of places around the United States and have for many years.
• 36:43
  Pat Nemmers: That year I told my wife, i said I am committing myself to not go anywhere else.
• 36:48
  Pat Nemmers: I'll pastor this church and I'm pastoring our boys Cause his older brother, daniel, was not much better than him I referenced that in the book John much worse, he went a lot darker than Daniel.
• 36:59
  Pat Nemmers: But I used to say people would say, how can we pray for your sons?
• 37:02
  Pat Nemmers: I'd say, well, pray that they'll be converted, whatever converted means.
• 37:06
  Pat Nemmers: It wasn't that I didn't understand biblical conversion, but it was a perfect prayer request because, as it turned out, daniel was a Christian but not living for God.
• 37:16
  Pat Nemmers: John was not a Christian.
• 37:18
  Pat Nemmers: Both of them needed to be converted, turned back to the Lord, right, one for salvation, one for restoration.
• 37:25
  Pat Nemmers: So really it was the perfect prayer request.
• 37:27
  Pat Nemmers: So, but anyway, that was as that was going on.
• 37:32
  Pat Nemmers: Where was I talking?
• 37:33
  Oscar Navarro: about John.
• 37:33
  Oscar Navarro: I asked you how do you disciple, How do you pursue children in that phase?
• 37:37
  Oscar Navarro: You mentioned time, basketball.
• 37:40
  Pat Nemmers: Hanging out with them, and I didn't take any preaching opportunities And so I dedicated myself to getting with those boys.
• 37:46
  Pat Nemmers: They would tell you they hated it.
• 37:50
  Pat Nemmers: Okay, i mean, it wasn't like, oh, goody, goody, here comes dad.
• 37:55
  Pat Nemmers: If they were watching a television show, i'd just go down and sit with them And I wouldn't judge the show or whatever, i would just talk, and they would tell you that dad wouldn't let us go.
• 38:07
  Pat Nemmers: I just I wasn't going to let them go, and I learned this, by the way, from my wife Marilyn.
• 38:12
  Pat Nemmers: I want to give a shout out to my wife here.
• 38:14
  Pat Nemmers: So what?
• 38:15
  Pat Nemmers: in the midst of all this, our oldest son was off to college And these are your youngest boys.
• 38:22
  Pat Nemmers: No, these are my two youngest, but our oldest is Marilyn's firstborn And I noticed that every morning he would go off to college.
• 38:32
  Pat Nemmers: He stayed, he lived at home, but he'd drive to college at 40 minutes away, so he'd get up really early in the morning.
• 38:39
  Pat Nemmers: He's a godly man, he was a godly kid then, but he was just super quiet And probably like his dad, who's with the Lord So.
• 38:48
  Pat Nemmers: But every morning Marilyn would go out and sit with him at breakfast time And I would.
• 38:53
  Pat Nemmers: I'd be in the bedroom just next door reading my Bible, which, of course, you know there's a spiritual thing to do in the morning, you know.
• 38:59
  Pat Nemmers: But I'm listening to my wife talking to our son, her oldest, and hers is the only voice I'm hearing.
• 39:06
  Pat Nemmers: She's asking about his day, she's interacting, and all I hear from him is yep, uh-huh, no, okay, see ya, bye, love you, that's it.
• 39:16
  Pat Nemmers: That's in about 20 minute conversation.
• 39:19
  Pat Nemmers: I remember sitting there one day thinking, honey, what are you doing?
• 39:22
  Pat Nemmers: He's not even talking back with you, and as soon as that thought came to my mind, i thought that's it, that's it.
• 39:28
  Pat Nemmers: She has the answer.
• 39:29
  Pat Nemmers: She was saying, without saying it, i will be in your life.
• 39:33
  Pat Nemmers: Whether you like it or not.
• 39:35
  Pat Nemmers: I'm in your life And I realized that's not what I was doing.
• 39:39
  Pat Nemmers: This would be a mistake I made.
• 39:41
  Pat Nemmers: I would confess that I let the rope out too far with my boys.
• 39:45
  Pat Nemmers: I had to come back in And that's what I did.
• 39:51
  Pat Nemmers: So I spent time with them and in the hopes that we could just repair the relationship.
• 39:57
  Pat Nemmers: And then God did something spectacular about me or my wife later.
• 40:01
  Emeal Zwayne: Yeah, what do you do?
• 40:01
  Emeal Zwayne: Well, let me just say real quick, before we go there, You know that is such an undervalued thing time spent with our children And Pat, I like what you said you know about how you're in the next room reading your Bible.
• 40:15
  Emeal Zwayne: And we have to recognize as Christians that there are, in some cases, the wrong time to do the right thing.
• 40:23
  Emeal Zwayne: And what I mean by that is if, as an example, you're employed by an employer and you're at work and you think, well, I gotta read the word.
• 40:32
  Emeal Zwayne: You know I always gotta be in the words.
• 40:33
  Emeal Zwayne: Every moment you get a little break, that's probably the most wicked thing you could do at the time, because you're called to live out the word by being what God has called you to be as an employee, And that is faithful, diligent, hardworking.
• 40:46
  Emeal Zwayne: You should shine, you should be the best employee in that entire place, you know.
• 40:49
  Emeal Zwayne: But spending time with our children And I think we have the greatest impediment to that ever in our day and age because of these stupid little things we're holding right here right, I mean, they have all of our attention, all of our focus We can get lost in these rabbit holes, for hours.
• 41:07
  Ray Comfort: This is a podcast.
• 41:07
  Ray Comfort: What's that?
• 41:08
  Ray Comfort: People don't know what you were talking about.
• 41:10
  Ray Comfort: Oh, phones.
• 41:12
  Ray Comfort: They thought you were holding your nose, one-eyed demons right here.
• 41:14
  Emeal Zwayne: They thought you were holding your nose.
• 41:16
  Ray Comfort: So why don't we all make a covenant before us and just burn our phones?
• 41:20
  Ray Comfort: You first, ray, no, you first.
• 41:22
  Ray Comfort: I live in the talk of it.
• 41:24
  Emeal Zwayne: So but you know that's one of the things I've mentioned before that Rachel said about Ray.
• 41:29
  Emeal Zwayne: He was itinerating and was gone, a lot like regularly flying out almost every weekend.
• 41:35
  Emeal Zwayne: You know speaking places.
• 41:36
  Emeal Zwayne: But she said one of the most powerful things I've ever heard a child of a pastor or an itinerant minister ever say.
• 41:43
  Emeal Zwayne: She said but I never felt like he was gone because when he was home he really made it count.
• 41:50
  Emeal Zwayne: And I mean she has repeated that so many times to different people that her dad made it count.
• 41:55
  Emeal Zwayne: He was out, they were frogging out in the pond, in the forest, they were playing games, and that's so important.
• 42:02
  Emeal Zwayne: Even if we're not doing spiritual things, you're conveying spiritual dynamics by being present and loving them, And those times will naturally come.
• 42:12
  Emeal Zwayne: That's key.
• 42:13
  Oscar Navarro: Listener.
• 42:14
  Oscar Navarro: For those who don't know, frogging is a comfort tradition where you dress up like a frog and eat flies.
• 42:19
  Ray Comfort: It is not.
• 42:20
  Ray Comfort: There was a pond about a mile and a half from a forest.
• 42:24
  Ray Comfort: We'd go there regularly and take nets and I get up to Manic, manic Manic and catch frogs and we'd sell them at the front gate because these things were like toys that hopped and didn't have batteries, so people would pay money for them.
• 42:38
  Ray Comfort: And that's how we paid for our first trip to the US.
• 42:40
  Ray Comfort: For the kids was frog finance.
• 42:42
  Ray Comfort: Wow, frog funds.
• 42:44
  Emeal Zwayne: Frog funds.
• 42:44
  Emeal Zwayne: Wow, all right, pat.
• 42:45
  Emeal Zwayne: So we got a few minutes left, about five or so.
• 42:48
  Emeal Zwayne: So now take us into what happened with John.
• 42:53
  Pat Nemmers: So I alluded to his brother, daniel, who was a Christian but was as far gone as John in many ways, except Daniel would always, whenever he would get caught sinning, he would always weep, he would always repent.
• 43:06
  Pat Nemmers: John just got darker.
• 43:08
  Pat Nemmers: So there's the.
• 43:09
  Pat Nemmers: That one was saved, one wasn't Daniel was Daniel's a lot like me, his personality's a lot like me And he just was sort of the he's the life of the party, wherever he was at.
• 43:21
  Pat Nemmers: And he was dating the class valedictorian, sharp, sharply, not a Christian, but she was planning, even in high school, to become a doctor or a PA.
• 43:30
  Pat Nemmers: And they were talking and she said to Daniel so what are you planning on doing in life?
• 43:35
  Pat Nemmers: And Daniel said I don't have any plans.
• 43:38
  Pat Nemmers: And she looked at him and she goes well, that's why I'm dumping you, because I'm not gonna marry a guy who has no plans in his life.
• 43:49
  Pat Nemmers: And I'm telling you that sent him into a tailspin.
• 43:51
  Pat Nemmers: He was working for a guy, he was cleaning a machine and he fell on his knees and repented and turned back to God And asked Christ to forgive him.
• 44:04
  Pat Nemmers: He would walk with him again.
• 44:06
  Pat Nemmers: Daniel went to a house where they were all smoking marijuana And our son, john, was amongst a bunch of guys doing like about a dozen guys, and Daniel walked in, as only Daniel could do, and made the announcement I have given my life back to Jesus Christ.
• 44:23
  Pat Nemmers: I'm never coming back here again.
• 44:25
  Pat Nemmers: I love you guys, I love to be able to talk to you guys about this, but you're not gonna see me here.
• 44:30
  Pat Nemmers: If you wanna follow me, come with me, otherwise I'm not coming back here.
• 44:34
  Ray Comfort: You walked into the lion's den.
• 44:35
  Pat Nemmers: And walked back out.
• 44:36
  Pat Nemmers: Yeah, and one by one they were yelling.
• 44:40
  Pat Nemmers: They were just saying they were vulgarated at Daniel.
• 44:42
  Pat Nemmers: One guy said I think it's cool, he's standing there for what he believes.
• 44:45
  Pat Nemmers: That guy became a Christian, batsized and everything.
• 44:48
  Pat Nemmers: But John was there smoking reefer And he looked at.
• 44:53
  Pat Nemmers: He told me later.
• 44:54
  Pat Nemmers: He said Dad, i knew then Daniel was the real deal, and so wasn't long thereafter John went to a kegger at some by some lake and got into another fight.
• 45:09
  Pat Nemmers: What's a kegger?
• 45:09
  Pat Nemmers: A kegger where they drink a lot of beer out of a kegger.
• 45:12
  Pat Nemmers: Okay, a kegger.
• 45:14
  Ray Comfort: So Innocent child.
• 45:15
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, frogger, frogger, you go ahead and catch frog breast or drink and beer.
• 45:21
  Pat Nemmers: But anyway.
• 45:21
  Pat Nemmers: So he got into a fight with a national wrestling champion Bad guy to choose a fight with And that guy broke John's shoulder.
• 45:30
  Pat Nemmers: Whoa Flipped him and broke his shoulder.
• 45:33
  Pat Nemmers: He called his brother, daniel, and said come and get me.
• 45:35
  Pat Nemmers: So Daniel came and got me his shoulders in a sling.
• 45:39
  Pat Nemmers: Daniel's taken him to the doctor.
• 45:41
  Pat Nemmers: And Daniel looked at him and said look at your life, look at you.
• 45:45
  Pat Nemmers: What are you doing?
• 45:46
  Pat Nemmers: Oh, and I know that sounds almost anticlimactic in some ways, because John said, right there, i knew I am a total loser.
• 45:55
  Pat Nemmers: I have got to do something about everything.
• 45:59
  Pat Nemmers: This gets back to what you do with a rebellious child.
• 46:02
  Pat Nemmers: All the truth that he knew just came flooding back in And he called me up and said dad, i wanna go to a certain camp, a Bible camp, which kids at his age didn't ever wanna go to a camp.
• 46:15
  Pat Nemmers: He's like 17, almost 18 now, and he almost planned his salvation, i think.
• 46:20
  Pat Nemmers: Right then he placed his faith in Jesus.
• 46:22
  Pat Nemmers: He went to the camp, he went forward during the message and he has never looked back.
• 46:27
  Pat Nemmers: And I tell you, i have seen hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people come to know Jesus as savior and watch their lives radically changed.
• 46:33
  Pat Nemmers: He's top five, wow, top five.
• 46:36
  Pat Nemmers: And today, and just about just two weeks ago, our church laid hands on John Nemmers and commissioned him as the next church planner in the Engage Network, and we couldn't be more joyful, praise God.
• 46:51
  Pat Nemmers: And how old is John now?
• 46:53
  Pat Nemmers: Pat John, he'll be 29 years old next month.
• 46:56
  Emeal Zwayne: That is just amazing, and I've had the privilege to spend some time with John and a lot of your children back when we went to Iowa, and what a delight it is to see what the Lord has done.
• 47:06
  Emeal Zwayne: And, friends, for those of you listening again, we hope that you've caught from all that we've been talking about that, the thing to do to deal with a rebellious child righteously, because, remember, to deal with sin sinfully is sinful.
• 47:22
  Emeal Zwayne: There's an unrighteous way to stand up for righteousness, and so what you need to do is as Ray talks about often.
• 47:30
  Emeal Zwayne: You don't be a hypocrite.
• 47:32
  Emeal Zwayne: That's one of the worst things you can do for your children.
• 47:35
  Emeal Zwayne: That will embitter them unlike anything else, but to be present, to be present to follow Marilyn's example, which Pat ended up following, and to be there.
• 47:46
  Emeal Zwayne: And your kids may not respond favorably, especially if you're not accustomed or they're not accustomed to you spending a lot of time with them.
• 47:53
  Emeal Zwayne: At first they might bristle, they might act weird, they might not talk, but you must persist and love Be present.
• 48:00
  Pat Nemmers: Can I add a quick addendum Please?
• 48:02
  Pat Nemmers: We've already talked about dealing with rebellious kids.
• 48:07
  Pat Nemmers: I would say to the parents out there don't make them an idol.
• 48:10
  Pat Nemmers: Too many kids are doing it, too many parents are doing that.
• 48:12
  Pat Nemmers: Don't make it.
• 48:12
  Pat Nemmers: I actually unwittingly did that with John, psalm 63, verse three.
• 48:17
  Pat Nemmers: I'm not an advocate of tattoos.
• 48:20
  Pat Nemmers: Okay, in fact I've joked with preachers If you don't like tattoos, don't tell your kids because they'll get all tatted up.
• 48:28
  Pat Nemmers: And so John has a tattoo on his chest.
• 48:32
  Pat Nemmers: He didn't know about the story with the widower I gave Psalm 63, verse 32.
• 48:38
  Pat Nemmers: He didn't know about my encounter with God in bed over Psalm 63, verse three.
• 48:44
  Pat Nemmers: On his very own, he fell in love with Psalm 63, verse three and he has that reference tattooed on his chest.
• 48:53
  Pat Nemmers: Your loving kindness, oh God, is better than life itself.
• 48:58
  Pat Nemmers: Therefore, my lips will praise you.
• 49:00
  Pat Nemmers: I like this guy more and more Amen.
• 49:04
  Emeal Zwayne: Well, that's just so wonderful.
• 49:05
  Emeal Zwayne: Pat And brother, thank you for just giving of your time for coming on here and friends.
• 49:10
  Emeal Zwayne: All of this and much, much more is in retractions, pat's book retractions Cultivating Humility After Humiliation.
• 49:18
  Emeal Zwayne: Again, the name is Pat Nemmers, n-e-m-m-e-r-s.
• 49:21
  Emeal Zwayne: Amazon.
• 49:22
  Emeal Zwayne: You'll get this thing delivered to you in like 30 seconds.
• 49:25
  Emeal Zwayne: These days They don't waste any time anymore, You'll get it before you order it, maybe even, but I'm telling you this is a life changer, pat.
• 49:33
  Emeal Zwayne: You know, after I read the book, i gave you input and I gave you constructive criticism.
• 49:38
  Emeal Zwayne: But you know, i also gave you praise, and that praise was not flattery, it was sincerity, and I told you this book is gonna be, it's gonna go big and it's gonna impact a lot of people.
• 49:50
  Emeal Zwayne: I have no doubt.
• 49:51
  Emeal Zwayne: As I've mentioned, this is one of the top podcasts in the world.
• 49:54
  Emeal Zwayne: It thrilled me to think we can tell people about it, because there's just no other way to put it.
• 50:00
  Emeal Zwayne: It is radically powerful and it's full of transformative truth.
• 50:05
  Emeal Zwayne: And so, friends, please get this book.
• 50:08
  Emeal Zwayne: Retractions Cultivating Humility After Humiliation.
• 50:11
  Emeal Zwayne: And, pat, i love you, brother, love you too.
• 50:14
  Emeal Zwayne: The Lord was so kind on that day when he brought our lives together, knit our hearts together And, honestly, you and Marilyn are some of mine and Rachel's favorite people on the planet And we're so excited to continue the journey of joy with you guys.
• 50:31
  Emeal Zwayne: Thank you, brother.
• 50:32
  Emeal Zwayne: Thanks for letting me be with you Our pleasure.
• 50:34
  Ray Comfort: Yeah, this is gonna be difficult.
• 50:35
  Ray Comfort: Do you go crazy, or Yeah?
• 50:36
  Emeal Zwayne: yeah, yeah, i'll go crazy.
• 50:37
  Emeal Zwayne: So remember, friends, to check out tough questions.
• 50:42
  Emeal Zwayne: Don't forget Living Waters Podcast Mug and Evidence Bible.
• 50:45
  Emeal Zwayne: Don't forget to give us your thoughts, your suggestions, your criticisms of Oscar's shirt today and all that other good stuff at podcastallivingwaterscom.
• 50:53
  Emeal Zwayne: Remember to give us ratings.
• 50:54
  Emeal Zwayne: Keep us up there.
• 50:55
  Emeal Zwayne: Hey, i am a bit disappointed because we had been with five stars forever, as long as we've been on.
• 51:00
  Emeal Zwayne: It's almost unheard of that.
• 51:02
  Emeal Zwayne: We've stayed at five stars.
• 51:03
  Emeal Zwayne: We're at 4.9.
• 51:04
  Pat Nemmers: Oh my.
• 51:05
  Emeal Zwayne: So that means what We saw that once way back when.
• 51:07
  Emeal Zwayne: That means you guys gotta get on there and give us a rating five stars so we could stay at five, because that'll get it far and wide.
• 51:14
  Emeal Zwayne: Thanks for joining us, friends.
• 51:16
  Emeal Zwayne: We'll see you here next time on the Living Waters Podcast.
• 51:20
  Emeal Zwayne: We're still yes, still.
• 51:22
  Emeal Zwayne: We have no idea what we're doing.
• 51:25
  Emeal Zwayne: Music.