Latest / This Film is Lit / The Chronicles of Narnia: The Voyage of the Dawn Treader

Transcript

The Chronicles of Narnia: The Voyage of the Dawn Treader · This Film is Lit

• 0:04
  Speaker A: This film is lit, the podcast where we finally settle the score on one simple. Is the book really better than the movie? I'm Brian, and I have a film degree, so I watch the movie but don't read the book.
• 0:15
  Speaker B: And I'm Katie. I have an English degree, so I do things the right way and read the book before we watch the movie.
• 0:22
  Speaker A: So prepare to be wowed by our expertise and charm as we dissect all of your favorite film adaptations and decide if the silver screen or the written word did it better. So turn it up, settle in, and get ready for spoilers, because this film is lit. You know, extraordinary things happen to extraordinary people. It's the Chronicles of the Voyage of the Dawn Treader, and this film is. Is lit. Hello, and welcome back to this Film is Lit, the podcast where we talk about movies that are based on books. We have a lot to get into. We're. We're wrapping up the Chronicles of Narnia saga. Did we start this before we had summer series?
• 1:15
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:15
  Speaker A: Okay. So that's why this wasn't a summer.
• 1:17
  Speaker B: Yeah, this was like one of the. The lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe was like, one of the first episodes we did.
• 1:23
  Speaker A: Yeah. Before we had the idea for, like, the summer series. So then we're like, well, we're just gonna have to do those slowly over time, which I think works because that's kind of how they did the movies. Not. Not entirely, but they. They didn't make them. Like. I don't feel like they did them the same way as, like, you know.
• 1:37
  Speaker B: No, it definitely was not the same kind of thing as, like, Harry Potter or the Hunger Games or whatever.
• 1:43
  Speaker A: Yeah. But anyway, so we're wrapping up the last one here. I wanted to note that, as you can probably tell, I am getting over an illness, so I sound terrible. I will do my best to talk as little as possible and let Katie take this. Although she may be coming down with said illness, so who knows how this will go? We're going to do our best to get through it. If you have not read or watched the Chronicles of Narnia, the Voyage of the Dawn Treader recently, let me give you a brief summary in. Let me sum up. Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up. This is a summary of the film sourced from Wikipedia. Three Narnian years after the events of Prince Caspian, Lucy and Edmund Pevensey are staying with their irritable, irritating cousin Eustace Scrub, while their older siblings, Peter and Susan are in America as World War II rages on. To his chagrin, Edmund is too young to enlist in His Majesty's armed forces. A painting of a ship on the ocean transports Lucy, Edmund and Eustace into an ocean. In Narnia, they are rescued by the Dawn Treader. Caspian invites them on a voyage to rescue the seven lords of Narnia whom his uncle Mraz exiled. In the Lone Islands, Caspian and Edmund are imprisoned and Lucy and Eustace are sold as slaves. Caspian meets one of the lost lords who reveals that unsold slaves are sacrificed to a green mist. The crew of the Dawntreader rescues Caspian and the others. Caspian outlaws the slave trade and appoints the lord governor. The lord gives Caspian a sword, one of the seven given to the lords by Aslan. On another island, Lucy is abducted by the invisible duffel Puds who force her to enter the manor of the magician Koryakin to find a visibility spell. Koryakin encourages the crew to defeat the mist by laying the lord's swords at Aslan's table on Raimandu's island, but warns that they will be tested. Envious of Susan, Lucy recites a beauty incantation she finds and it is a dream in which she is Susan and neither Lucy nor Narnia exists. Aslan chides Lucy for her self doubt, explaining that her siblings know of Narnia only because of her. At a third island, another sword is recovering from a pool that turns anything it touches into gold. Wandering alone, Eustace finds a cursed treasure and steals some of it. Edmund and Caspian search for Eustace and discover the remains of another of the lords. Recovering the sword, they encounter a dragon which turns out to be Eustace, transformed by the treasure's curse. Reepicheep befriends Eustace, who has a change of heart and becomes useful to the crew. The crew arrives at Aslan's tables to find three lost lords in an enchanted sleep. As they place the swords on the table, they realize one is missing. A star descends from the sky and transforms into Ramondu's daughter Liliandel, and she guides them to the dark island, the lair of the Mist, where they discover the last lord. The mist uses Edmund's fear to create a sea serpent that attacks the ship. Eustace fights the serpent, but the panicked lord wounds him with his last sword, causing him to fly away. He then encounters Aslan, who transforms him back into a boy for his self sacrifice and sends him to Ramendu's island with the last sword. As the crew fights the serpent, the mist distracts Edmund by appearing as Jadis the White Witch. You. That's her name? Jadis?
• 4:35
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 4:35
  Speaker A: I had no idea. Eustace reaches the table, but the mist tries to stop him from putting the sword on the table with the others. He overcomes the mist, allowing the swords to unleash their magic and bestow Edmund, using Peter's sword with the power to slay the sea serpent, the death of which awakens the three lords. The mist of the dark island is destroyed when the liberated. When they liberate the sacrificed slaves, Eustace rejoins the others and they sail to a mysterious shore. Before a massive wave, Aslan appears, telling them that his country lies beyond, although if they go there, they can never return. Caspian's duty as king dissuades him from following his wish to enter Aslan's country. But Reepa Cheep is determined to enter. Aslan blesses him and bids, and he bids farewell to the others. Aslan tells Lucy and Edmund that like Peter and Susan, they are now too old to return to Narnia. He tells Eustace that he may return one day and encourages them to know him in their world by another name. He opens a portal for them to return to the Back to return to back to the present world. To return to back to the present world.
• 5:33
  Speaker B: Come on, Wikipedia editors.
• 5:35
  Speaker A: The three are transported back into the bedroom. Eustace hears his mother announcing that Jill Pole has come to visit. And as they leave the bedroom, they look sadly back at the painting, seeing the ship voyage through the waves and disappear before Lucy closes the door. The end. I'm going to go die now. God, reading that was even more nonsensical than watching it. I think we'll get into it. I didn't dislike this movie, but we'll get into it. All right. Katie, I got a lot of questions. No. Guess who this week? I think we probably did that. Oh, wait. We weren't doing Gissu back in the early days. I don't know if we ever did it for this series.
• 6:07
  Speaker B: No, I think we did. Guess who was one of our like og.
• 6:13
  Speaker A: I know we did it early. I just didn't remember if we did it in the very first.
• 6:16
  Speaker B: There were like a couple things in this book that I probably could have put, but I didn't feel like it was enough. There were some characters that didn't make it into the movie and I didn't feel like there was enough to make it worth including.
• 6:27
  Speaker A: All good. I have lots of questions. Let's get into him in. Was that in the book?
• 6:32
  Speaker B: Gaston may I have my book. Please.
• 6:34
  Speaker A: How can you read this? There's no pictures.
• 6:37
  Speaker B: Well, some people use their imagination.
• 6:39
  Speaker A: We open up. As I mentioned, Edmund is in line trying to enlist in the army because he wants to go fight in World War II. World War II is still going on, but they turn him down. He's got a. I think he has, like, his uncle. It's Eustace's dad, I guess is paperwork or something.
• 6:54
  Speaker B: It's his mom. Cause it's Alberta.
• 6:57
  Speaker A: No.
• 6:57
  Speaker B: And he tries to say it's a typographical error and it's supposed to be Albert A.
• 7:01
  Speaker A: Okay. I knew it was scrub, so I knew it was one of the relatives. But anyways, he has the paper, but he's trying to enlist, but he's too young. And so he's trying to forge his way in, but they turn him down. And this kind of sets up his arc of wanting to grow up and go do adult things. And I wanted to know if him getting turned down from enlisting in World War II came from the book.
• 7:21
  Speaker B: It does not. I was actually a little surprised by this scene because the book states that this story takes place after World War II. There's a passage early on that reads, peter was working very hard for an exam, and he was to spend the holidays being coached by old Professor Kirk, in whose house these four children had had wonderful adventures long ago in the war years.
• 7:45
  Speaker A: The war years that have been World War I.
• 7:48
  Speaker B: No, it's. It's. It is World War II in that. In the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, because they go to escape the London. The London Blitz.
• 7:56
  Speaker A: Right, okay.
• 7:58
  Speaker B: And I didn't mind this as a way to show Edmund wanting to grow up. I also could be misremembering, but I think there was kind of a similar idea with Peter in the first movie. Like, that he wanted to go fight in the war and resented being too young to do so. So if I'm remembering that right, I think it's a nice callback.
• 8:17
  Speaker A: Mm.
• 8:18
  Speaker B: The timeline does still work. If the first movie takes place close to the beginning of the war, and then this movie happens more towards the end of it. But it still ends up feeling like a continuity issue to me because 1. I don't know that the war is referenced in the Prince Caspian movie. I don't remember, but they're, like, just on their way to school at the beginning of that one. They're, like, gonna take the train to school.
• 8:47
  Speaker A: As we've established. I remember nothing.
• 8:48
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 8:49
  Speaker A: So I don't know.
• 8:50
  Speaker B: That's yeah. But then also, why would the rest of the family be on a fun little trip to America if the war is still going on?
• 8:59
  Speaker A: Well. And why wouldn't they have taken them? That was what confused me. I thought maybe the family was in America to, like, get away from the war, but then they left the kids there. I was confused and I haven't. We'll get to that. But I.
• 9:12
  Speaker B: And wouldn't Peter then be fighting in the war? Because he would be old enough if Edmund is almost old enough.
• 9:19
  Speaker A: Yeah. And that's. Yeah. Maybe he. Maybe he's. Maybe they took him to America to get out of the war. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I was confused by that. I wasn't sure. So, okay, so we're introduced then to Eustace Scrub, who is their cousin, I believe, right?
• 9:34
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 9:35
  Speaker A: Who they're staying with while their family is in America. And he's the worst. At the start of this story, he's very annoying, the annoying cousin. He, like. He's just. He's very. God, I don't even know how to describe him. I don't even know the word. But he, like, gets on them for, like, being into fairy tales. And he's like. He reads practical books full of real stuff, and he's like, this is what happens when you get all caught up in fairy tales. And he's this very, like, obnoxious little kid who's kind of an insufferable killjoy. And I wanted to know if that is the Eustace Scrub of the book.
• 10:13
  Speaker B: Yes, it is. Eustace, I think, is such an immediately recognizable type of character. I think we've all known a Eustace Scrub at some point in our lives. Tiresome, obnoxious, just a drag to be around.
• 10:30
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 10:31
  Speaker B: And we learn a little bit more about, like, his parents, too, in the book. And C.S. lewis is basically taking a swat at like, quote, unquote, New Age ideas.
• 10:43
  Speaker A: Really?
• 10:44
  Speaker B: With Eustace and his parents.
• 10:45
  Speaker A: This passage, I don't know what New Age ideas were in the 50s or whatever. When did he write these books?
• 10:51
  Speaker B: The 50s.
• 10:51
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 10:52
  Speaker B: Yeah. So this passage reads, he, meaning Eustace didn't call his father and mother father and mother, but Harold and Alberta. They were very up to date and advanced people. They were vegetarians, non smokers and teetotalers and wore a special kind of underclothes in their house. There was very little furniture and very few clothes on beds, and the windows were always open.
• 11:18
  Speaker A: It almost makes me. I could see New Age, but I Almost that to me reads is like. I don't know if Mormons were. They weren't. They were a very distinctly American thing.
• 11:30
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 11:31
  Speaker A: But like, the special undergarments.
• 11:33
  Speaker B: And the special undergarments, they almost, to.
• 11:37
  Speaker A: Me sound like a specific type of a religious.
• 11:39
  Speaker B: I wasn't really sure what to call it other than New Age, because the way he talks about it definitely makes it feel like he's like, oh, these people and their newfangled ideas. And they're not like, sticking to tradition.
• 11:53
  Speaker A: There are elements of that, like, with calling the parents, not by their, you know, calling them by their first name names and the. Their vegetarians and all that sort of stuff, but like, also, like I said, the other stuff. I don't know.
• 12:02
  Speaker B: Yeah. I'm not sure what it would have been like culturally in England during the 1940s, 50s, that he would have been specifically referencing, but if anybody knows.
• 12:14
  Speaker A: Yeah. Please let us know.
• 12:15
  Speaker B: Let us know.
• 12:16
  Speaker A: That's interesting.
• 12:17
  Speaker B: That's why I have New Age in quotes in here, because it's not New Age in the way that we think of New Age, but I wasn't really sure what else to call it.
• 12:25
  Speaker A: Yeah. Huh. That's. That's super interesting. Okay. Which is also super interesting because it's not really. I guess I could see that with his character. Like, that type of. Those type of parents aren't necessarily the type of parents I would assume would raise a kid. Like Eustace, I guess, a little bit. He has a bit of a. Like the kill a killjoy in the sense that. Yeah, they're very kind of like. They're like straight edges, like. Yeah, kind of. But to me. Yeah, they almost read like. Like Calvinist. Not Calvinist, like the. I see. I wonder if they're like the. What's that? Remember that big. There was a movement around that time period. The guy who made Graham crackers is something Graham or do you know.
• 13:02
  Speaker B: Yeah, something Graham Kellogg.
• 13:03
  Speaker A: Kellogg. Was it. Was it Kellogg?
• 13:05
  Speaker B: Kellogg made corn flakes.
• 13:06
  Speaker A: Yeah. The guy who made Graham crackers to keep people from jerking off.
• 13:09
  Speaker B: Something Graham.
• 13:10
  Speaker A: Yeah. Right. So. But that was like a religious movement, but that was into, like. I think they were like. They were super into health at the same time. Like, there was this movement that was during that time period. Like, there's a comedy movie called, like, Road to Wellville or something that's kind of about that. There was this movement of, like, clean living, but that was tied to rel. Around the mid century, I think.
• 13:32
  Speaker B: Oh, no, this was way earlier than you're thinking. Sylvester Graham invented the Graham cracker, but that was in 1829.
• 13:41
  Speaker A: Okay, well, even still, I. I think around this time, maybe not the 1950s, but earlier in the. Which. Which may be around the time that the book is set. Which is close. Well, I guess it's set around the 50s. Right. When is this book set?
• 13:57
  Speaker B: Sometime after the world.
• 13:58
  Speaker A: Second World War. Because I was thinking of the movie set in the 40s. So maybe he's talking about people that existed more than 40s, but around that time period, I think there was a movement of religiously motivated, kind of straight edge, health focused. We're vegetarians. We don't. Everything's super pure and clean so that we can enter the kingdom of heaven or whatever. And I think maybe that's what.
• 14:22
  Speaker B: Well, but I think it would be. I think it would be like knowing the character of Eustace and also knowing C.S. lewis and like, kind of what his beliefs and motivations are in writing this. I think it would be less religiously motivated and maybe more so that he's taking a swipe at people who are more like science and logic motivated.
• 14:46
  Speaker A: Sure. I could also see it though, being a swipe at this other weird. Not like this. This kind of like, yeah, maybe strange version of this. Relate. Like, again, because I don't. I don't know. I don't know. I'm talking mostly out of my butt here. Just from what I vaguely recollect about this. It's just. I don't know, because it. To me, it. I will just have to get feedback and see if anybody knows or do some research because I just don't know what kind of person that would be describing. Like, again, the undergarments thing. That's such a weird. To me, that's like weird religious thing. Not person of science who. You know what I mean? Like progressive person of science who has weird undergarments. Unless they're literally making a joke about I don't know what else. Yeah, it's just a weird.
• 15:30
  Speaker B: I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it could also be a reference to like, maybe styles of undergarments were changing at that time.
• 15:39
  Speaker A: Like they had more modern ones.
• 15:40
  Speaker B: Yeah, maybe they had more modern. I don't know.
• 15:43
  Speaker A: We really need some feedback from people if they know. All right, so the way to get to Narnia in this one is that a painting of the ocean on the wall with a boat on. The ocean just starts pouring water into Eustace's bedroom. I guess it's not Eustace's bedroom. It's Lucy's bedroom. And I wanted to know if that's how it happened in the book. Cause I thought that it's fun in the movie. But particularly the practical effect they did for that in the movie was incredibly good. There's the moment where they pull it. Eustace pulls it off the wall. And it's still spraying, like, gallons and gallons of water out at them as they're, like, moving it around. And it was just super convincing effect. And I wanted to know if that felt like it was representative of the book.
• 16:25
  Speaker B: So this plays out pretty similarly to how it does in the movie. They're in the room arguing and suddenly get hit with a spray of water shooting out of the painting. The main difference is that in the movie, the room then fills with water. And they go under the water and resurface in Narnia, while the book, they're, like, moving towards the painting from across the room. And then they suddenly find themselves standing on the edge of the frame and fall, kind of fall into the picture and resurface in the Narnian ocean. I think both versions are fun. I thought the practical effect was really good. Like you do. I do think I prefer the book's version because it felt a little more unique to me. Like being on the edge of the frame and then falling in to the picture.
• 17:14
  Speaker A: What I thought would have been. What I actually thought was going to happen in the movie, and then it didn't. And I was surprised. And what I thought would have been cool because it kind of would have combined. What you're saying with what they did in the movie is that when the camera, like, the room starts filling with water and then they go. They swim underwater. And then we just kind of dissolve or cut, I can't remember. And then they're just swimming, and then they surface in Narnia. Basically, what I thought was going to happen is when this room starts filling with water and then they, like, swim down that. The camera was going to go down with them. And we were going to see the painting on, like, the floor of the bedroom where it fell. And they were gonna swim through that.
• 17:50
  Speaker B: That would have been interesting.
• 17:51
  Speaker A: And then that takes them into. And then they, like, emerge coming out of. Into Narnia, which I thought would have been cool. They didn't end up really showing them swim through the frame, which is what I thought was gonna happen. But either way, like I said, I thought that was a really, really well done. I read something about that. That whole little room was built on a special soundstage so they could flood it and empty it really quickly, obviously. Cause they just pump tons of water into that room and then be able to pump it out really quick when they drain it at the end. So they arrive in Narnia and they are immediately found by the Dawn Treader. Which prince, or sorry, King Caspian, I guess, is on at this point?
• 18:29
  Speaker B: Oh, that's right. He is King Caspian in this one.
• 18:32
  Speaker A: And he grabs. He jumps in and pulls them out of the water, takes him onto the boat and then basically info dumps the mission. And they need to go find these seven lords that his uncle Mraz, like, exiled in the previous. I don't know, sometime between. It may have happened in the previous movie and I just don't remember, but may have been mentioned because. Because at this point his uncle's dead, right?
• 18:57
  Speaker B: Like defeated him. He dies in the last movie.
• 19:00
  Speaker A: So this happened before the end of the events of the last movie that he got rid of all these lords, I guess. Anyways, I wanted to know if that is their mission to go find these seven lords.
• 19:10
  Speaker B: Yes. Caspian is currently on a quest to locate or find out what happened to the seven lords who had supported his father and were then exiled by his uncle.
• 19:22
  Speaker A: Can you expand on that? Lord all. Like, what all happened with that? Part of this is. I just don't remember anything that happened in Prince Caspian. The only memory I had, so watching this, we were trying to be. I was like, I wonder if this will, you know, spur any memories. It did not. Except I had the vaguest memory of some vague plot with Ben Barnes and his uncle and like them fighting. Like, I had a vague memory of that, but nothing else about the movie. Anyways, yeah, what's. I just. I don't know. And we'll talk more about this later. But that was my biggest issue with this movie was all the kind of lore stuff going on in the background. I was like, I got no idea what's going on here.
• 20:01
  Speaker B: So I can't really expand on that lore specifically because the book is pretty similarly vague. And I don't think that remembering the events of Prince Caspian would have helped you here because I. I could be misremembering. But I genuinely think that this book is the first time we hear of these seven lords.
• 20:23
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 20:24
  Speaker B: I don't think they're mentioned in the last one. Okay. So Caspian says, well, on my coronation day, with Aslan's approval, I swore an oath that if I. If once I established peace in Narnia, I would sail east myself for a year and a day to find my father's. Friends or learn of their deaths and avenge them if I could. And that's all he says about it.
• 20:47
  Speaker A: Okay, fair enough.
• 20:50
  Speaker B: And that is like pretty classic C.S. lewis, in my opinion. He's not a huge like world building lore kind of guy like Tolkien was. It always kind of feels like it was being made up as he went to serve whatever he purposed, whatever purpose he needed to tell the story he wanted to tell.
• 21:10
  Speaker A: And that's fair. Yeah. That some writers work more that way. Otherwise, you know, writers work in lots of different ways. I, I don't necessarily. I like. And I have a time to know about this later. It didn't necessarily detract from. I'm sure it detracted at least somewhat from my enjoyment of the film or at least I, I'm sure I would have enjoyed it more if I had more knowledge about the background of what all was going on here. But overall it didn't really take away that much. I was able to kind of just go along for the ride and be like, who cares? It doesn't really matter. But yeah, it's just like. And we'll get more to that later. But there was lots of point in this movie where I was like, I don't know what we're doing, like, what's going on here? So then they arrive at some island there where they're trying to find the first lore. Someplace that. Where he thinks there may be, I don't remember. And it seems to be deserted. But then they realize that what actually is going on is that slave traders have kind of taken over the island and like rounded everybody up and sold them off as slaves. And Caspian and Edmund are captured. But ultimately they see that what the slave traders are doing this thing that any of the people that they can't sell as slaves, which seems weird to me that they're unable to, particularly the people they show. Like, it was like a, A woman, a perfectly healthy like middle aged woman was like, like, you can't. Whatever. Okay. It just seems like, like I get like, you know, you have a hard time maybe selling like very elderly people or something. But like very interesting. But the, the people, they can't sell as slaves. They like sacrifice them to this green mist that comes out of the ocean.
• 22:48
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 22:48
  Speaker A: And like vanishes the people. And nobody knows where they go or what happens or if it kills them or what. They just, they're gone and they're like, oh, we gotta feed these people to the green mist as a sacrifice. And I wanted to know if that came from the Book.
• 23:03
  Speaker B: It does not. The green mist and the ensuing quest to destroy it is the movie's, like, really big departure from the book. None of that is in the book at all. And I totally get the movie wanting to add something that felt more solidly like a big magical quest.
• 23:26
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 23:26
  Speaker B: Especially given how vague the, like, finding the seven lords plot point is. But I have to put this entire thing under better in the book because I feel like it ended up being kind of equally vague and underdeveloped.
• 23:40
  Speaker A: I would agree. I don't know what the mist was, other than, like, a representation of fear.
• 23:46
  Speaker B: I don't know. I don't know. Yeah.
• 23:50
  Speaker A: So after they save the island, they end up getting. They save the Lord. Lord Byrne, who was, like, trapped in the dungeons. He gives Edmund a sword, or. Sorry, he gives Caspian a sword and was like, this is one of the.
• 24:06
  Speaker B: Seven swords, magical swords.
• 24:09
  Speaker A: And I thought it was really funny that he gives it to Caspian. Is like, here, your father. I think he may even references his father wanting him to. I don't know. But he gives it to Caspian, and then Caspian immediately just goes, here you go, Edmund, and gives it to Edmund. And I wanted to know if that element of the Lord giving him that sword came from the book and if he also just immediately gave it to Edmund. Because I was like, I feel like he wanted you to have that sword, Caspian, and not Edmund. But.
• 24:33
  Speaker B: Okay, no, none of this happens in the book.
• 24:37
  Speaker A: Where do they get this first sword from then?
• 24:41
  Speaker B: Well, they're not seeking swords in the book. They're seeking the lords, but not the swords.
• 24:48
  Speaker A: Okay. Sorry, I didn't realize. They. I thought. Okay, so they're just looking for the lords. Gotcha.
• 24:56
  Speaker B: Yes. The sword thing is a movie invention. And you know what's funny is that I. The. The summary that you read off of Wikipedia said that the swords are. It says, one of the seven given to the lords by Aslan. And I don't remember the movie mentioning that. I guess that must have come up, but I don't. I don't remember that.
• 25:23
  Speaker A: Well, I. The bigger issue. One of the other issues I had with the swords is that they. They don't do a very good job of distinguishing them.
• 25:32
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 25:32
  Speaker A: So there were times where Edmund had, like, there was another sword that was like, the sword. So Caspian gives him, like, I guess, Peter's sword later.
• 25:44
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 25:45
  Speaker A: But it also kind of looks like the other swords. And I didn't know if it was one of the same swords or. I was like, there's too many swords that are kind of like. And I couldn't. And I was like, wait, is Petyr's sword that Caspian gives him one of the seven, or just another one that's also magical? And somehow I didn't understand the sword stuff.
• 26:06
  Speaker B: I don't think Peter's sword is supposed to be one of the seven.
• 26:10
  Speaker A: I don't think so, no. Cause they put all seven on the table.
• 26:13
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 26:13
  Speaker A: But we'll get to it later. But, yeah, that stuff made no sense to me. And it makes sense to. I can believe it being a movie edition, because it doesn't feel particularly, like, thought out.
• 26:23
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 26:26
  Speaker A: There's a fun scene in the movie where Eustace, again, because he's kind of obnoxious, at one point, Reepicheep challenges him to a fight because, like, he touches his tail or whatever. And so they have a. They fence on the. The deck of the ship in front of everybody. But really, it just kind of ultimately becomes Reepicheep giving Eustace, like, a fencing lesson in a way that I thought was really fun. And I want to know if that scene came from the book.
• 26:55
  Speaker B: So there is a scene in the book where Reepicheep wants to duel Eustace because Eustace grabbed his tail. But they never actually duel in the book. So I thought it was a good choice by the movie to not only actually do that, but to have it be a teaching moment and kind of kick off Eustace's character arc.
• 27:15
  Speaker A: No, I agree. I thought it worked well. It made for a fun little scene.
• 27:18
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 27:20
  Speaker A: Then after this, we. Then at the end of the duel, they, like, knock over a barrel, and there's, like, a child in the barrel.
• 27:27
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 27:27
  Speaker A: And then they turn and look at one of the guys who's a crew member, I guess, who's like. And it's like, his daughter. And I was like, wait, is it. Is there. There's a crew member's daughter hiding in a barrel? And I was like, I guess this will matter eventually, because nothing happens with it in that moment. They all just go, oh, looks like we got a new crew member. Ha, ha, ha. And they all, like, laugh it off or whatever. And then I realized, oh, wait, maybe this was because I think I was taking a note, but I was like, this might have been the girl who earlier, whose mom got put on the. And I think this is who this is, right?
• 27:58
  Speaker B: Yes. Yeah.
• 27:58
  Speaker A: When they rescued the slaves on the island, there was one guy and a girl or a guy and his daughter. My brain does. I'm so sorry. My brain is not Functioning. I'm on like eight different drugs and like, it just. It's bad. The guy that they saved and his daughter, their mom got put on the boat and sacrificed to the green mist. So she disappeared. So I assume that's who this. It is this who this is. I just didn't realize it in the moment because I didn't see her in that earlier scene, but my brain figured it out later. Does that come from this plot line? Come from the book? I don't even know what I'm asking.
• 28:31
  Speaker B: No, this character's not from the book. And again, kind of going back to my earlier note about the green mist, I just think this whole thing is pretty under baked on the movie's part because, yeah, that is, we see earlier, like, after they liberate all the slaves on the island, the dad is like, oh, let me come with you to search for my wife. And he tells his daughter to like. Yeah, he tells her to like, no, stay behind with your aunt. And then she ends up, I guess, stowing away on the show.
• 28:58
  Speaker A: Okay, I complete that interaction you just described. I must have been taking a note because I did not recall that we then introduced this kind of running subplot in this movie, which is that Lucy, similar to Edmund, wanting to grow up and kind of be an adult. Lucy is very envious of Susan for her beauty and being kind of like old and not old and pretty, but an adult and like growing into her, you know?
• 29:24
  Speaker B: Yes. Lucy's like a kid looking up to like a cool teenager at this point.
• 29:29
  Speaker A: Yeah. And I wanted to know if that subplot came from the book. And specifically when she gets. They end up on this island, she gets kidnapped by the duffel puds. Duffel puds or whatever. These like one legged. Yeah, kind of like leprechauny looking guy in the movie at least. And they ask her to go into this magician's house and she goes in and to find a spell book so that she can make them visible again. And when she does that, she finds this other spell that is like, for making people pretty and she uses it or starts to use it and it makes her look like Susan. And I thought it was an interesting plot point that ultimately resolves eventually. And I wanted to know if that came from the book.
• 30:11
  Speaker B: That does not come from the book, but it is actually a change that I liked. In the book, Lucy is tested when she uses a spell to. Similarly, in the same scene, she uses a spell to eavesdrop on her friends back home when they're talking about her. And then she doesn't like what she overhears, and Aslan shows up and he kind of chides her for doing that. And it's fine. It's a fine book scene, but it's kind of boring, kind of comes out of nowhere. There's no indication that she was feeling insecure about her friends, and it's resolved immediately. But on the other hand, in the movie, Lucy, wanting to be pretty slash like Susan, I think works well with the idea that she's growing up. And I think it also dovetails with the end of the series. Spoilers for the Last Battle, in which Susan ultimately does not get to come back to Narnia because she grows up and stops believing in it. And this idea is centered around her becoming, like, vain and, quote, only interested in lipstick and nylons and invitations. The Last Battle has some wild messaging in it. It's not a Narnia book that I recommend, but I think that what the movie does here would work well in tandem with that.
• 31:44
  Speaker A: Right. No, Yeah, I liked it, and I have more about it. We'll get to it in just a second. But. So actually, my next question we already talked about, which is the quest to lay the seven swords at the table is not a thing.
• 31:55
  Speaker B: No.
• 31:55
  Speaker A: So. Because in the movie, this wizard that they talk to then basically tells them to lay the seven swords at the table of Aslan in order to defeat this evil mistake, is this whole side quest with the wizard and the Duffel pup Dupuds or whatever, Is that from the book?
• 32:15
  Speaker B: No, they do meet the wizard and the Duffelpuds in the book, but he does not give them an additional quest to do that. But they do.
• 32:26
  Speaker A: They go and see them. Or the subplot with her turning them visible and stuff.
• 32:33
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 32:33
  Speaker A: That all comes from.
• 32:34
  Speaker B: That all comes from the book.
• 32:35
  Speaker A: The greater part with the green mist in the quest. Correct. Okay. So really it's more of a. When they run into them, it's more of just kind of a little vignette, like, side spike.
• 32:46
  Speaker B: Yeah, this book is very episodic. Like, each chapter is a separate adventure, basically.
• 32:51
  Speaker A: So then they arrive at this next island that they get to, which is like a magic island full of geysers and gold and shit. And they get down into a crevice, into a cave, and they find this pool of water that has a person's body in it that has been turned to gold, and they realize this is one of the lords that they're looking for, I believe. Right. But then they quickly realize that, and his sword is in the pool of water. But then they quickly realize that this water turns anything that touches it into gold, which is what happened to the Lord. And it briefly tempts Edmund. He's like, hey, if we have this pool, we have all the power in the universe. And I wanted to know if this little element came from the book.
• 33:35
  Speaker B: So the magic pool that turns things into gold is from the book, but it's actually Caspian who's briefly tempted by it, not Edmund. He's like, oh, my God, I could have all the gold I ever need. He briefly gets gold fever. So Edmund doesn't really get tested in the book. And I do understand the movie wanting to add that. I don't know if this was, per se, the right place to do it. I don't know how much sense it makes with his, like, character arc overall. Yeah. And I'll also say that part of the point in the book is that Edmund has already been tested and learned to reject evil because he did that in the light. The witch and the wardrobe.
• 34:18
  Speaker A: Yeah, they do kind of just rehash that.
• 34:21
  Speaker B: Yeah, they do a lot of rehashing in this because, like, the whole end.
• 34:25
  Speaker A: Part, which I don't think is necessarily bad, because if I don't. I don't know, because, like, it is realistic that, you know, just the fact that you. He was able to kind of throw off. He was tested in the first one and ultimately was able to reject the white witch or whatever. And then she shows up again in this one in, like, the form of, like, the green mist or whatever, as this evil, like, his fears and stuff and kind of. And so it is kind of a rehashing of, like, the same test for him again, is like, can he reject this? Blah, blah, blah. But that being said, I don't think it's necessarily the worst thing in the world to kind of have a character not just automatically be perfect and done the first time they. They overcome something. You know what I mean? Like, it. Just because, you know, a very real world example, Just because somebody gets sober or whatever once doesn't mean that they're gonna be sober forever. And it's all good now and, like, everything's fine. You know what I mean? This is not how the world works, not how people work. So I don't think it's necessarily, like, the worst thing in the world to kind of do that, but it does feel a little like we need to give this character some sort of conflict in this movie. So let's just come up with something. So then as they're leaving. They find. They think Eustace is dead because they. They find something.
• 35:46
  Speaker B: Yeah. He goes missing and they find. They find, like, the dragon horde and they seal his. His, like, clothes and looking all burnt up or something.
• 35:53
  Speaker A: That's what it was. Yeah. And so they assume he's dead and they're, like, going back to the ship. And then as they get back to the ship, they are immediately attacked by a giant dragon. And we get kind of a prolonged battle with this dragon. And then eventually the dragon grabs Edmund and flies away with him and flies him over this giant field. And it is revealed on this field that the dragon has burned into the ground. I am Eustace. And so the dragon is Eustace. And surprise. Wow. He turned into a dragon. Does that come from the book?
• 36:36
  Speaker B: Eustace does get turned into a dragon, which I realized while reading was, like, the only thing I solidly remembered from this book was, like, the key memory that I had of it. However, the book's version plays out pretty differently than the movie. So in the book, when Eustace finds the treasure pile, he also sees a really old, like, sickly dragon. And then that dragon dies. And Eustace spends the night sleeping, like, on top of the gold and thinking about, like, what he could do with this treasure. And then he wakes up as a dragon. And it's very strongly implied that behaving like a dragon is what turned him into one. It's not like a curse on the treasure or anything like that. It's like he's, like the book says, like, sleeping on top of a dragon's hoard and thinking dragonish thoughts. Turned him into a dragon? Basically, yeah. So then, after realizing that he is a dragon, he goes to find the others. And Lucy is able to deduce that Eustace is the dragon after she helps him with his hurt foot.
• 37:48
  Speaker A: How does she deduce that?
• 37:51
  Speaker B: Okay, let me find that page.
• 37:52
  Speaker A: I'm just curious. I was like, well, what is she? How does she.
• 37:56
  Speaker B: She helps the dragon. And they're looking at the arm cuff that he has on his leg, and they realize that it belonged to Lord Octasian because they can see his, like, signia on it. And then rebooteep says, villain, have you devoured a Narnian lord? But the dragon shook violently. Or perhaps, said Lucy, this is the Lord Octesian turned into a dragon under an enchantment. You know, it needn't be either, said Edmund. All dragons collect gold. But I think it's a safe guess that Octasian got no Further than this island. Are you the Lord Octasian, said Lucy to the dragon. And then when it sadly shook its head, are you someone enchanted? Someone human? I mean, it nodded violently.
• 38:44
  Speaker A: Okay, so they just play 20 questions.
• 38:46
  Speaker B: Basically. Yeah.
• 38:47
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 38:49
  Speaker B: I don't.
• 38:49
  Speaker A: Which would have been dumb. Well, you could have done that. Funny. It could have been funny in the movie.
• 38:53
  Speaker B: Yeah. I don't necessarily mind the movie's changes, other than I really didn't like I Am Eustace burnt into the ground. I thought it was goofy.
• 39:03
  Speaker A: The reveal of it made it. The reveal of that in the movie made us both, like, chuckle out loud in a way that felt like it wasn't intentional. But I can also see how the books version, again, I think they could have done the books version. They would have had to play it for comedy of doing this kind of weird mime game where they're playing 20 questions and you could do a comedy beat with that that I think would work. But, yeah, I Am Eustace on the ground. Because the music sting. It was all very overly dramatic and it was like, oh, yeah, okay. And just the I Am Eustace was just so funny. I don't know. So they then leave again to go on the. I think towards the final island. I don't remember. They're setting off on their journey again. And throughout the journey in the film, we've seen these, like, water spirit things. I don't know what they are. They kind of look like mermaids, but they look like they're made of water. Yeah, basically. So some sort of, like, water sprites or whatever. But earlier they've been kind of like, friendly and waving and stuff to Lucy. And then this time when she sees him behind the boat, one of them pops out of the water and looks at her and is like, no, no. And she's like, what? And it's like, no. And then you're like, okay, bye. And I thought that was interesting. And I want to know if it came from the book.
• 40:18
  Speaker B: That specific moment does not come from the book. They do encounter what they call sea people in the book, but only at the very end when they're on their way to Aslan's country. I didn't mind the movie's take on it. I thought it was interesting. But I did think that the description of the sea people in the book was more unique. Like you said in the movie, they kind of look like mermaids, but they're made of water. Yeah, Basically in the book, they're like tiny people riding seahorses, which I thought was Fun. And then they also see one that's like a shepherdess, sea person who's watching over a flock of fish. I don't know, I thought it was kind of fun.
• 41:00
  Speaker A: No, it is fun. For sure. I did think it. I did like the. The ominousness.
• 41:06
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 41:07
  Speaker A: The ominicity. I don't. What's the. What's that word? What's that version of ominous?
• 41:12
  Speaker B: I don't know.
• 41:13
  Speaker A: The ominous nature. Maybe you don't say. Maybe there is.
• 41:16
  Speaker B: Yeah, maybe it doesn't have a.
• 41:17
  Speaker A: What is that?
• 41:20
  Speaker B: A noun.
• 41:21
  Speaker A: A noun, whatever. Just saying words. But I did like that. I thought it was kind of a fun moment or in a little funny too, where it's just silently, like gesturing at her like, no. And she's like, well, well.
• 41:37
  Speaker B: And then doesn't mention it to anyone.
• 41:39
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So then they do. They get to the island. I don't even remember what the name of this island is.
• 41:46
  Speaker B: I don't think it matters.
• 41:47
  Speaker A: But they get to this island and they find Aslan Land's table and there's like a feast set out on it. And as soon as they walked up, which this was a weird red herring to me, that this whole scene was very strange to me, they arrive and they find this feast set out on this table. And immediately I'm like, well, don't eat that. This is some cursed ass shit right here. And they then discover that there are these three lords sitting at the end of the table that had been eating. And they are all in a state of a waking coma kind of. I don't know, they're. They slightly are moving, but they're basically.
• 42:29
  Speaker B: They're in like an enchanted slumber.
• 42:31
  Speaker A: Yes, basically. And like all these like vines and plants have grown all over them and their hair is super long, like they've been there for years or whatever, which I thought was creepy and interesting. So I wanted to know if that element came from the book. But then also the part after that that was really weird that I don't really have a question about here is they then rightfully are like, hey, don't eat the food. These guys must have eaten the food and it was bad. Like it. It's probably the thing that put him to sleep or whatever. But then Liliandel comes down and is like, oh, no, it's fine. You guys can eat the food. It's for you. These guys were being assholes, so we put them to sleep. But you guys can. This food's for you. Eat it. And they do, and it's just fine. And that was such a weird nothing scene to me because the whole time I was expecting this whole Lily Andal thing to be, like a bruise or something or. Because the way she was talking, she seemed, like, kind of cagey. And, like, I was like, surely this is all a trick. And then when she tells him, no, no, no, no, eat the food. It's fine. I was like, oh, this is a. Don't eat the food. But then, no, they just eat the food, and then it's fine, and we never. And we just move on. I was like, okay, I guess. Does any of that come from the book?
• 43:50
  Speaker B: Most of that is from the book. Yeah, kind of. One of the big main differences is that the lords who are in the enchanted slumber are not covered in overgrown vines, but their own overgrown hair. The other main difference is that there's an additional character in this scene. We meet Ramandu, who's Liliandel's father, which I think is mentioned in the movie.
• 44:17
  Speaker A: I assume he is, because I read his name, like, four times in the.
• 44:19
  Speaker B: But I don't think we ever actually see him. No, but we do meet him in the book. And so the. The backstory is, I think, maybe a little more fleshed out with the lords. So they arrive at this table, but then they start fighting amongst themselves. And they try to fight with. With the stone knife, which is a thing from the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, and it's the knife that was used to kill Aslan.
• 44:47
  Speaker A: I vaguely remember that.
• 44:49
  Speaker B: And that was like a big. No, no. So it put them into this enchanted slumber. But the food. But, like, it's not an evil place, right?
• 44:56
  Speaker A: No, I. I got that ultimately.
• 44:58
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 44:58
  Speaker A: I just thought it was weird that it wasn't.
• 45:00
  Speaker B: I mean, it is kind of maybe not weird.
• 45:02
  Speaker A: It's just. I found it to be sort of like.
• 45:05
  Speaker B: It's a very strange climactic. It's a very strange kind of. Red herring.
• 45:10
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 45:10
  Speaker B: Like, it's a red herring with no real purpose.
• 45:12
  Speaker A: It may be a red herring, and maybe it's just I'm interpreting it as a red herring because later media, that sort of thing is always a trap and.
• 45:20
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 45:20
  Speaker A: And so in just. In a version where it isn't like a weird trap or like a trick or something, I'm just like, well, it's gotta be. And then it does it. Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. It's just. It subverted my expectations by, like, not subverting my expectations, I guess. I don't know. But by like, just being what it said on the tin. I was like, oh, okay. I guess that's what it is. It's very. I just thought it was kind of a strange. Yeah, I mentioned this earlier, but this is. I want to get back to it. The subplot with the stowaway girl who stowed away on the ship. We get a little bit more with her where she kind of start. Kicks off a relationship with Lucy. They spend a little bit of time together, and she really starts looking up to Lucy. And at the end she's like, why? You know, towards the. Before we get to the big climax here at the end, her. And like, Lucy's getting ready in her room or whatever, and the girl's, like, talking to her. She says something along the lines of, like, oh, I wish I hope one day I get to grow up to be just as pretty and wise you are. Or something like that. And this kind of makes Lucy realize that she is already enough. Enough is already mature and pretty and blah, blah. All these things that she wanted to be that she saw in Susan, other people see in her, or this younger girl sees in her. And so she realizes, oh, I was being kind of silly, which I thought was a sweet subplot. I liked the idea behind it a lot, but I felt like it needed more buildup. I don't think they had enough time together. I also felt the same about Caspian and Edmund's relationship because they have a similar kind of thing going on where they have this big moment before the final battle. And it just felt like all that character. To me, those were like, the most interesting parts of the story. And they felt like they were completely shortchanged because the movie was way more interested in just, like, doing stuff, which is fine. Like, I. It made for an entertaining movie, but I was like, this is like the remote, the only remotely interesting, like, meet in this story that I've seen so far. And I wanted to know if it came from the book because I'm wondering if maybe there was more of it. And it was just one of the things that. That. It's one of those things that when you're making a blockbuster summer movie studio, whoever, the first thing they're going to make you cut is all the little character moment stuff. Because, like, who cares? We got.
• 47:34
  Speaker B: We gotta get that out of here.
• 47:35
  Speaker A: Yeah. And so anyways.
• 47:37
  Speaker B: Okay, so we already talked about the still a bit girl not being from the book, but I agree with you about her little subplot with Lucy. It's a really sweet idea that I think could have worked well, but it needed more. We needed like another moment or two.
• 47:52
  Speaker A: At least one or two more scenes with them.
• 47:54
  Speaker B: Yeah, the Caspian and Edmund relationship. So when I read your question, I thought you were talking about like the earlier, like budding between them.
• 48:04
  Speaker A: And then they resolve it.
• 48:05
  Speaker B: Yeah. And then they resolve it.
• 48:06
  Speaker A: Yeah, I was talking about all of it.
• 48:07
  Speaker B: That part I really didn't like. It's not from the book. And I totally get it in the context of Edmund feeling like, oh, I have no power, no control, whatever, dah, dah, dah, dah. But it's also literally just a rehash of Caspian and Peter's pissing contest in the Prince Caspian movie, which I seem to recall that I also didn't care for. Yeah, it's like the same thing again.
• 48:32
  Speaker A: Yeah. So they. Then we're in the final big climactic action scene here of the movie, which I assume none of this really comes from the book, or at least maybe in certain ways, because the green mist isn't in the book and they're sailing somewhere to get to the, like the.
• 48:46
  Speaker B: Island that it comes from.
• 48:48
  Speaker A: Yeah, or something like that. And they get there and when they get there, they kind of get confronted by the green mist. And I don't remember how they know this, but at some point they realize, like, as they're leaving, oh, they get.
• 49:00
  Speaker B: They rescue one of the Lord.
• 49:01
  Speaker A: They get the Lord who has the final sword that they need. They get him on. And then as they're leaving, I think maybe the Lord says, like, oh, it will manifest your fears. They basically says it will turn your fears into your doom kind of thing. So, like, don't think of anything that scares you. And Edmund just accidentally in that moment immediately thinks of a giant terrifying sea serpent and it turns into a. And so the green mist turns into this giant sea serpent thing. And I was like, it's ghost. It's the ending of Ghostbusters.
• 49:33
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 49:34
  Speaker A: And I wanted to know if that came from the book because it was cracking me up.
• 49:38
  Speaker B: That does not happen in the book. You were correct on that assumption. There is a scene where they have to escape from a sea serpent, but it's just a regular sea serpent. It's not a fear conjured one, just a normal sea serpent.
• 49:51
  Speaker A: Just like an actual sea serpent and not like a green mist monster thing. But yeah, it's for people who haven't seen Ghostbusters. The end of Ghostbusters is the evil villain. Oh my God. Blanking on the name. But Zuul basically tells him choose the form of your destruction. Like, choose the form of humanity's destruction. And so the idea being that the next thing any of them think of in their minds will become the thing that destroys them all. And so they're like, clear your minds. Clear your minds. And then I think it's Venkman forgets or messes up and thinks of the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man. Like, he thinks he's like, what's the most innocent, least dangerous thing he can imagine? It's the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man. And that's why an 800 foot tall, evil stay Puft Marshmallow man shows up and destroys New York City at the end. But it's that I was like, oh, it's the Ghostbusters. Which I'm sure is a mythology thing from back. I'm sure Ghostbusters would be the first thing to do that. But anyways, I thought it was funny. So then Eustace shows up as a dragon to kind of help them fight. I say, shows up. He's been with him to help fight off the sea serpent. He does a fairly good job. But then the sea serpent, like, throws him against the rock. And then, like, I guess the Lord just, like, freaks out. I didn't understand what was happening, but.
• 51:09
  Speaker B: I think he's supposed to be mad because he's been, like, trapped in this mist island for years.
• 51:14
  Speaker A: Definitely. Yeah. He's, like, lost his mind. But he. So he sees the dragon and he just. I couldn't. I don't remember what he says, but he just, like, hucks his sword at the dragon and it just, like, sticks into Eustace's side. And I was like. And sure. I mean, clearly the only reason this happens is so that Eustace ends up with the sword and can go put it on the table.
• 51:36
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 51:37
  Speaker A: But it's such a weird moment. I'm like, why does he throw his sword at the. What. What's. Whatever. Does that come from the book?
• 51:44
  Speaker B: It does not. No.
• 51:46
  Speaker A: Okay. And obviously, I guess the swords don't. The whole sword plot line doesn't come in the book, so it doesn't matter. Okay. So then after Eustace is now seemingly dying from his injuries from both the sword and the. The sea serpent slamming up against a rock, and he kind of like, crash lands on this little atoll in the middle of the ocean. And then Aslan is just. Asland is just there. Yeah. And it's like, you're free. You're not a dragon anymore. And I guess both resurrects him and unturns him into a dragon. And I wanted to know. And then also teleports him to the table, I guess. I guess because he kind of like wakes up and he's back on the island. What's going on? Is anything. I come from the book.
• 52:30
  Speaker B: What's going on? Aslan is sometimes a very convenient day to sex Machina.
• 52:34
  Speaker A: Yeah. And it's fine. Fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's just like. Okay, I guess Aslan shows up and literally just like, fixes everything here with.
• 52:41
  Speaker B: Eustace because he's God.
• 52:42
  Speaker A: I know.
• 52:45
  Speaker B: Okay, so we've established that none of this climax is from the book. However, it is Aslan who shows up and helps Eustace change back into a human. But it happens, like, much earlier in the book. Eustace isn't. He isn't actually a dragon for very long in the book. It's like a chapter or two, maybe. I did always think the way that him turning back into a human, the way that it was described in the book was a little weird. So I do kind of prefer the movie's version where he almost, like magical girls him, like, up into the air and he, like, poofs back into basically.
• 53:23
  Speaker A: What he does in the movie.
• 53:24
  Speaker B: Yeah, no, I prefer that. Let me read a little bit from the book here because I remember this, because I remember thinking that it was kind of weird reading it as a kid. Okay. So basically, Eustace was a dragon. And then he shows back up at the camp as a boy again. And he's telling Edmund what happened and says, I was lying awake and wondering what on earth would become of me. And then. But mind you, it might have all been a dream. I don't know. I looked up and I saw the very last thing I expected. A huge lion coming slowly towards me. I'm not going to read all of this because it's like five pages, but. So he talks about the lion coming to him and he says that it spoke to him or he, like, heard its voice in his head. He's not really sure. At last, we came to the top of a mountain I'd never seen before. And at the top of this mountain, there was a garden, trees and fruit and everything. In the middle of it there was a well. And he. The water was clear as anything. And I thought if I could get in there and bathe, it would ease the pain in my leg. But the lion told me that I must undress first. I was just going to say that I couldn't Undress because I hadn't any clothes on. When I suddenly thought that dragons are snaky sort of things and snakes can cast their skins. Oh, of course, I thought that's what the lion means. So I started scratching myself and my scales began coming off all over the. And he says, like, he kept on scratching, but he. There's just like new dragon skin underneath each layer. Then the lion said, you will have to let me undress you. I was afraid of his claws, I can tell you, but I was pretty nearly desperate now, so I just lay flat down on my back and let him do it. That very first tear he made was so deep that I thought it had gone right into my heart. And when he began pulling the skin off, it hurt worse than anything I'd ever felt. Well, he peeled the beastly stuff right off, just as I'd thought I'd done it myself the other three times, only they hadn't hurt. And there it was, lying there in the grass, only ever so much thicker and darker and more knobbly looking than the others had been. And there I was, as smooth and soft as a peeled switch and smaller than I had been. Then he caught hold of me. I didn't like that much, for I was very tender underneath now that I'd had no skin on, and threw me in the water. It smarted like anything, but only for a moment. And after that it became perfectly delicious and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 55:58
  Speaker A: So he tears his very clearly like a baptism.
• 56:02
  Speaker B: Yes. And then he baptizes him back into being a boy.
• 56:05
  Speaker A: Yeah. So that's very clearly like a baptism, like rebirth, like being reborn. Metaphor. The movie keeps some of the imagery because Eustace is like, scratching it himself.
• 56:18
  Speaker B: He does, like, start scratching it as.
• 56:20
  Speaker A: Land, like, drags his claws through the sand and like gold light comes out. And then it, like the same thing happens on Eustace and then that. And then he. That seemingly untransforms him. I would agree that the movie's version definitely is less weird.
• 56:39
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 56:43
  Speaker A: Yeah, huh. But it's also less overtly, which I don't necessarily have a problem with because I'm not a Christian. So I don't care if. If they scrub the overt Christian symbolism out of the mov. Like for me, I'm like, whatever, scrub, pun intended, unintended. But it happened anyways. So, like, to me it wouldn't. I don't care if they removed the. The born again baptism imagery. But it is interesting. Then it's that because to me, as you're reading that that is very clear what is being done there. Whereas in the movie, I didn't really get that from it. Like, the sort of being reborn in that pain that has to go with it and all that sort of stuff. And that Jesus being really, like, the only one that can actually, because, like, he tries to do it himself, but it doesn't work. And, like, he needs, like, I, I, I'm fine with the movie being like, nah. Unless he's kind of, like, glossed over all that. And yeah, Aslan shows up and does some magic or whatever, but, but, but I could understand why Christians reading this and then watching the movie could find that change. Disappointing, I guess, because it definitely robs some of the overt Christian symbolism.
• 57:52
  Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I just, like, I have a memory of reading that as a kid and being like, it's weird, strange. But I was raised Catholic, so. And Catholics don't have the same ideas about baptism as, like, other sects of Christianity do.
• 58:07
  Speaker A: So you have your own weird stuff.
• 58:08
  Speaker B: But yeah, we have a lot of our own weird stuff, but that's not one of them.
• 58:12
  Speaker A: Different weird stuff. Yeah. So they saved the day. They're able to get the sword on the other swords. And it does. A sword. I'll ask questions about that later. None of that really matters. They save the day and then they arrive on the banks on the, on the border of Aslan's country, as they call it, which is heaven, I would.
• 58:33
  Speaker B: Be, one would assume. Yeah.
• 58:35
  Speaker A: Because, like, Caspian asks if his dad is there, and he's like, I can't tell you that. You know, you can't find no kid.
• 58:40
  Speaker B: Your dad's in hell.
• 58:41
  Speaker A: Yeah, I know. I guess. Yeah, but he's like, I can't tell you. You can only know by being that, you know, by crossing over, basically. And Caspian still has stuff to do or whatever, so he's not gonna cross over. The kids aren't gonna. But Reepa Cheep wants to go, and I wanted to know if Reepicheep decides his time in Narnia is done and wants to go over to the Gray Havens or what? And it's not the Gray Haven. Sorry, Is it the Gray. I can never remember if the Gray Haven. Yeah, I think it might be the Gray Havens.
• 59:09
  Speaker B: It's the same kind of symbol.
• 59:10
  Speaker A: Well, but you know, what I'm saying is that some. I can't remember if the Gray Havens is the place you leave to go to the, the Elf Heaven place from, or if it is the elf heaven place. I can never remember. And I. It doesn't matter.
• 59:23
  Speaker B: Yeah, I don't remember.
• 59:24
  Speaker A: I don't remember. I always get them mixed up in my head because it doesn't matter.
• 59:28
  Speaker B: Yes, Reepiche does decide to journey on into Aslan's country, which was the thing that he wanted, like, the whole time.
• 59:36
  Speaker A: Yeah. I don't remember if they set that up in the second movie at all. Probably.
• 59:40
  Speaker B: I don't know.
• 59:41
  Speaker A: But I thought they at least touched on it to where earlier in this movie. To where. When it happened. It didn't feel like out of nowhere to me. And as somebody who didn't remember anything from the second movie, there was a scene earlier where he's talking to, I think, Eustace about how he's telling him. I think when he's doing this, like, telling them the story after Eustace becomes a dragon, he says something about, like, oh, this happened to me years ago. Let's not talk about how many. You know, alluding to, like, he's lived many lifetimes and he's very old. And, like, I'm done with this. It's kind of. It's like the vibe I got from that conversation. So at the end, when he's like, yeah, I want to go there. I was like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. Then my final question here, I have to ask this because this was crazy to me and made me rethink my. The entire reading of the Chronicles of Narnia and maybe makes me think it's the most heretical book series ever written. That's my thesis.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker A: Okay. At the end of this movie, Aslan turns to. I think it's Edmund or Lucy, one of the two, and says, you can't come back to Narnia. You're too old. Blah, blah, blah. But you can know me in your world. In your world, I have another name. And I wanted to know if that line came from the book, because to me, that is just Aslan, straight up insinuating that he is Jesus. God, whatever. Of our world.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker A: And that is insane to me, narratively, metanarratively, I guess. Because if he is Jesus, in quote, unquote, their world, the real world, which is our world, and it's not. And the story isn't just an allegory, but in fact is. The book is insinuating real, then in this very Christian stories universe, Jesus is literally a giant talking lion from a fantasy world and not the Jesus of the Bible. He is this, like. He's like a comic book character. He's Like a meta, Like a multiverse.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker A: He's, like, spanning, which to me is a very heretical understanding of God and Jesus that I don't think most Christians are vibing with. No, no, no. Jesus also exists in this fantasy universe as a lion. So. So to me, this story works as a. As an allegory. Like, I understand Christians liking the Chronicles of Narnia as an allegory for Christianity where Aslan is Jesus or whatever. And that all works, but the moment the. The books themselves go, yes, and Aslan is actually Jesus in your real world, it ceases being an allegory and becomes like this weird other thing. I don't even know how to describe it. Do you get what I'm saying?
• 1:02:32
  Speaker B: I think it's very strange. I do. I get what you're saying. Because. Because we're introduced to this story via the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, which is very clearly an allegory for Jesus sacrificing himself to save humankind.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker A: Right.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker B: And in this book, yes, he does imply that he actually is Jesus.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker B: So he says that line, okay, you are too old, children, said Aslan, and you must begin to come close to your own world now. It isn't Narnia, you know, sobbed Lucy, it's you. We shan't meet you there. And how can we live never meeting you, but you shall meet me, dear one, said Aslan. Are. Are you there too, Ser. Said Edmund. I am, said Aslan. But there I have another name. You must learn to know me by that name, word for word from the. This is the very reason you were brought to Narnia, that by knowing me here for a little, you may know me better there.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That implies that, like, the real version. And to me, the way that reads almost is like the real version of Jesus is Aslan, the lion God thing. And that the Jesus in our world is to me, like, I get it. I get what it's doing. And I'm being probably overly pedantic. Part of the reason why we're taking.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker B: This from allegory into yeah, which that's.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker A: Just weird to me to make it so direct and less allegorical, because then you then have to go, okay, so then me as a real. As my person reading this in our real world, am I supposed to believe from this? And I don't think the answer would be no. C.S. lewis would be like, no, you're not supposed to believe that Jesus is a giant lion in an alternate magic of Revelations.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker B: Does describe Jesus as a lion.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker A: Lion, sure. I Understand all that. And I like. I. Yeah. My point is that I don't think CS Lewis implication is that you're supposed to, like, actually re. Evaluate your religious beliefs and go like, oh, Jesus must also maybe exist as a. In a multiverse as this. Because it is essentially kind of like a multiverse story where, like, Narnia exists as this separate universe from our world.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker A: That you can cross into through a portal or whatever. And in that universe, Jesus, slash, God is this lion guy. And.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker A: And. And so again, making it less allegorical and more a direct tie to our world, to me, makes it very weird. And I could almost unders. I could almost not be surprised if there were Christians out there who were like, I don't like that. That's weird.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker B: There probably are. I've never heard of any, but I bet there are.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Because if it's all an allegory and you're like, okay, yeah, Aslan is Jesus, but this is all made up. It's all fantasy, like, you know, blah, blah, blah. But him implying that. No, he is literally Jesus, it's like, oh, okay. I don't know. Very funny to me.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker B: You would hate the Last Battle.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker A: I'm sure I would.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker B: You would hate it. I hated it. And I don't even have as, like, strong feelings about this as you do.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker A: All right, that was it for. Was that in the book. I got a few more questions to talk about in Lost, in Adaptation. Just show me the way to get.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker B: Out of here and I'll be on my way.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker A: Yes. Yes. And I want to get unlost as soon as possible. The first question. And we kind of touched on it, but why are the other siblings in America? I was conf. They didn't. Felt like they just kind of glossed right over why they were.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker B: It's pretty vague in the book, honestly. They say that their parents were going on a trip to America and Susan went with them because they couldn't afford to take all of the children and they thought that she would get the most out of the trip. Peter actually is not in America in the book. He's studying for exams, I guess, probably whatever the, like, the equivalent of, like, end of high school.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker A: Right.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker B: Like, maybe college entrance exams or something would be. Or was. I don't know.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker A: Okay, fair enough. Yeah, I was. I was unsure of what was going. Why they were alone with Eustace.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker B: Yeah. And like I. Like I said at the beginning of the episode, it makes less sense, I think, if the war is still going on.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker A: Yeah. Like, they were Able to just take a. Yeah. During wartime?
• 1:07:03
  Speaker B: I don't know.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker A: Unlikely. But. Okay, maybe not. I don't know. I have no idea. But it seems strange. My next question is. Okay, so as we establish he's no longer Prince Caspian, he's King Caspian. But then when the Pevenseys arrive, and I called them pensives all the time, but the Pevensees arrive, which is probably. If I'm gonna be honest, that's probably. No, pensive is just a real thing. Never mind. I was gonna say JK probably stole that and just rearranged letters. That's the kind of. She did all the time. But they arrive and then everybody bows down to them and they're like, the King and Queen of Narnia here. And I'm like, wait, who's the. There's too many kings and queens. Who's. Who is the. So is Caspian the king or what. What. What's going on?
• 1:07:45
  Speaker B: Yeah, they all are. You can't think.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker A: Narnian royalty doesn't make any. To be fair, real life royalty doesn't make any sense.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker B: And they're. And, yeah. So in the. In the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, Aslan says, once a king or Queen of Narnia, always a king or Queen of Narnia. And the text treats this idea both metaphorically and incredibly literally. If you're a king or a queen in Narnia, you're a king or a queen in Narnia, and you can't think too hard about it.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker A: Fair enough. I did Google this after, because it was driving me crazy. I was like, what is. Who's. Who's in charge? What's going on here? And, yeah, essentially, they. Caspian is the king, from what I could gather, and that they previously were. And part of this also would be helped if I remembered anything about Prince Caspian because I'm sure this was at least somewhat alluded to in that movie. I just don't remember. But, yeah, I was just kind of confused at what the. The hierarchy here was, at what. The scene where Lucy gets kidnapped by the duffel puds. I couldn't figure out why the whole. Maybe I just missed a line. But they're all just sleeping on this island and then they get kidnapped. I'm like, why are they on that island? Why are they sleeping on that island? What happened here?
• 1:08:58
  Speaker B: I don't know if you missed anything, because Caspian says they get to this island and Caspian's like, we'll spend the night on the island and we'll explore it in the morning. Which Seems like a pretty bad idea all around.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker A: Why wouldn't you sleep on your ship?
• 1:09:12
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:09:13
  Speaker A: Daylight or whatever.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker B: I don't know.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker B: Because the plot.
• 1:09:16
  Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. And then my last question was related to the sword magic that I alluded to earlier. I don't remotely understand the sword magic that's going on because somehow putting the seven swords of the lords together gives Edmund's sword, which I think was Peter's sword, that Caspian gave him, like, superpowers, so he turns it blue so. So he can kill the sea serpent.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker B: I don't know.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker A: And you don't have any. This obviously isn't in the book.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker B: No, it's not from the book. I. I'm sure that what we're supposed to presume is that because all of this stuff comes from Aslan, that, yeah, it's similar to, like, immediate with magical power.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker A: Right.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker B: But it's not explained.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker A: It was. I found it very clunky and confusing and part because I had such a hard time keeping track of which sword. I was like, okay, so there's the seven swords from the lords. That's easy. We got to get all those and put them on the table. But then we throw in Peter's sword, and somehow it gets powers from the other swords getting put on.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker B: I don't know. That's the part that really doesn't make sense.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker A: They never explained that. I feel like. And they just. He gives him Peter's sword and it's like.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker B: And I don't remember. I. I am assuming that Peter's sword. Remember how Petyr gets his sword? I don't remember.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker A: Couldn't tell you.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker B: Maybe it also came from Aslan.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker A: Yeah, maybe. It looks similar.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker B: I think he gets his sword from Father Christmas.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker A: I think you're right. It does sound right. Yeah, I think you're right.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker B: Whatever.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker A: Well, but Father Christmas is also just Jesus, right? Like in a different form or something. Probably.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker B: I don't know.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker A: I don't know. I just thought that was like. I couldn't figure out the sword. I was like, what? Okay, so sure, whatever. I thought that was very clunky. But again, it actually didn't really matter that much to me and didn't really affect my viewing pleasure or my viewing experience all that much. But it was like I just had to turn my brain off and be like, I'm just not gonna think about this. All right. I'm so glad to be done talking. Katie, let's find out what you thought was better in the book. You like to read?
• 1:11:26
  Speaker B: Oh, yes. I love to read.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker A: What do you like to read?
• 1:11:32
  Speaker B: Everything. So, first off, I think it's a shame that we had to lose what is, in my opinion, the best opening line in all of literature.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker A: Oh, yeah, you said. I forgot about this.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker B: This is my personal favorite first sentence ever, and it is. There was a boy called Eustace Clarence Scrub. And he almost deserved it.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker A: That is an incredible line. And I have actually.
• 1:11:59
  Speaker B: Banger opening line.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker A: I've actually heard that before. I don't know if I read it somewhere or if you mentioned it before somewhere, but.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker B: But the. Basically, the whole first couple of paragraphs of this book is just C. S. Lewis roasting Eustace. Because then, like, another sentence or two later, the narrator says, I can't tell you how his friends spoke to him, for he had none.
• 1:12:24
  Speaker A: Brutal.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker B: Okay. So kind of moving forward, when we get to the part with the. The slave trade and everything, the movie added that whole action scene where, like, everybody revolts and they fight the slavers, which I totally, totally get. But I thought what happened in the book was kind of interesting, which is that they basically, like, bluster their way in and they like. Like, they get everybody off of the Dawn Treader and they come in as though they're doing, like, a royal parade, and they're like, make way for the King of Narnia and make it seem like they have more people than they actually do. And they, like, bluster their way into, like, the city hall or whatever or wherever the guy who's in charge lives, the governor. And they, like, go in and they're like, well, the king's here, so you can go. And they, like, flip his table. I thought it was. It was just interesting to read.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker A: Yeah, because they don't. There's not so much a revolt in the movie, is it? So much as the crew is just disguised as.
• 1:13:35
  Speaker B: Yeah. But then, like, that when they free the slaves, everybody, like, gets up and is fighting.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker A: Right, Right, right. Okay. Okay.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker B: Maybe a revolt is not the exact right word, but the movie definitely adds an action scene there where there is not one in the book. Which, again, I get. And I don't think it's a bad choice. I just thought what happened in the book was a little more interesting and unexpected. There's a random little moment when Lucy goes into the magician's house to find the spellbook where she, like, scares herself because she, like, glances over and there's a mirror on the wall that has, like, a beard on the bottom of it. So she, like, glances over and sees, like, a face with a beard and is like, ah. And then is like, oh, that's just a weird mirror.
• 1:14:25
  Speaker A: So it's like. It's like the. The. What's the little. The little, like the guy you would draw. The pencil shape?
• 1:14:34
  Speaker B: Yeah. Like a woolly. Woolly willy.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker A: Willy, maybe. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker B: Kind of like that.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker A: Where the mirrors just. Or the. The beard is on the mirror.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker B: Yes.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker A: So it's then on your face when you look in the mirror. That's funny.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker B: And then after that, the narrator of the book tells us, I don't know what the bearded glass was for because I am not a magician and I could be misremembering. But I don't recall the other books in this series having such a strong narrative voice as this one. The narrator is almost like its own character in this, which I thought was really fun.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker A: Like something more that you expect from, like, a Pratchett or something like that.
• 1:15:16
  Speaker B: Yeah, something like that. It's not as heavy as it is in, like, a Pratchett novel, but we get these little asides here and there where it's very clearly like. Like a narrator speaking directly to the reader, which, again, I'm probably just misremembering the other books, but I thought that was really interesting. There's a fun part in the book after they meet the magician and have been talking to them, where he has all of them describe what they've seen so far. And then, based on what they're telling him, he magics a map for them of everything that they've discovered. When Eustace becomes a dragon, the first thing he does is cannibalize the dead dragon that was already there.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker A: There was a dead dragon there?
• 1:16:04
  Speaker B: Yeah. He sees the horde, and then this dragon comes out of the cave, and it's, like, really old and decrepit and, like, on its last leg, and it dies.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker A: Ooh.
• 1:16:14
  Speaker B: And then he becomes a dragon, and the first thing he does is go over and, like, chow down on the dead dragon's body. At which point the narrator tells us that there's nothing dragons like to eat so much as other dragons.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker A: Yeah, a little bit of commentary about, like, yeah, wealthy.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:16:31
  Speaker A: Which is not true, by the way. The people that wealthy people like to eat are not other wealthy people.
• 1:16:37
  Speaker B: They will, Louis.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker A: They will. But that is not their preferred diet.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker B: Yeah, but it was like a random, like, weird, dark moment in this book that I thought was kind of fun. There's a little moment after Eustace turns back into a boy when he's telling Edmund about how he. How Aslan Baptized him back into a boy. And Edmund kind of comforts him by saying, between ourselves, you haven't been as bad as I was on my first trip to Narnia. And I was like, you know what? I'm glad that you know yourself, Edmund. It's a very true statement. Nothing that Eustace has done was as bad as what you did.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker A: Are you sure that wasn't in the movie? I remember a line like that in the movie where Edmund, like, commiserates with Eustace at some point later. I could be wrong, but there's something about that is ringing a bell in my brain. Maybe not that exact.
• 1:17:32
  Speaker B: If there was, I missed it.
• 1:17:33
  Speaker A: Okay.
• 1:17:34
  Speaker B: Taking a note or something.
• 1:17:36
  Speaker A: Because I do. I do feel I felt the same way. I was like, this is real rich of you guys to be so, like. Like shitty to Eustace.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker A: Like, when he shows up in Narnia for the first time, it's like you guys did. You guys were not killing it the first time you got here.
• 1:17:49
  Speaker B: Well, especially Edmond.
• 1:17:50
  Speaker A: Yeah, especially Edmund.
• 1:17:51
  Speaker B: He sucked the first time he went to Narnia. When they're on the island with the gold pool, which is a separate island from the dragon island in the book, but when. When they find that golden pool, like, before they find it, they initially find this lord's armor and weapons just, like, sitting on a hillside. And they're like, well, where are his remains? There would be, like, bones or something left, right? But they can't find anything, so they have to solve the mystery of what happened to him, which is that he took off his armor and went for a swim in this pool and turned to gold.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker A: Do they not see his body?
• 1:18:33
  Speaker B: They see his body in the pool, but they initially just see, like, his chain mail and, like, his sword lying. Or maybe not his sword. They see, like, his stuff on the ground, and they're like, gotcha.
• 1:18:47
  Speaker A: And then they find his body.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker B: And then they find his body in the pool. I mentioned multiple times that the green mist is not from the book, but there is a dark island that they go to very briefly, and they do rescue one of the lords from it. It. And he is similarly, like, kind of gone mad because he's been trapped on this island in complete darkness. And it is an island where dreams come true. And he tells them that they rescue this lord, and he's like, we have to get away from here, because this is an island where dreams come true. And they're like, well, that doesn't sound so bad. And he's like, no, no, no, not Daydreams, dreams, which I thought was really creepy. A little detail that I thought was interesting. When they're on their way to Aslan's country, one of the. They encounter, like, increasingly odd things as they're on their way to Aslan's country. But they. They seem to think that all of these things are very delightful. I did not think all of them sounded delightful. And one of those things that they does, that they encounter these huge white birds that sing in human voices, which I think sounds really creepy.
• 1:20:04
  Speaker A: Sounds very creepy.
• 1:20:07
  Speaker B: My last note for Better in the book was that I was surprised that the movie did not have Aslan appear initially at the end as a lamb, because he's a lamb first when they get to, like, the border of Aslan's country, and then he transforms into a lion. And that, to me, feels very important to the Christianity of it all.
• 1:20:29
  Speaker A: Maybe they felt like it was too on the nose.
• 1:20:31
  Speaker B: Maybe.
• 1:20:32
  Speaker A: Like it's already pretty obvious. Like, maybe we don't need him to be a lamb, but. Yeah. All right, let's go ahead and find out what Katie thought was better in the movie. My life has taught me one lesson, Hugo, and not the one I thought it would. Happy endings only happen in the movies.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker B: I really liked the addition of having a Minotaur be part of the crew of the. Part of the crew of the Dawn Treader. And then we saw some fauns on the Lone Islands.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker A: There's also a faun on their crew.
• 1:21:04
  Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:21:04
  Speaker A: Or maybe he joins Adam.
• 1:21:05
  Speaker B: I think maybe he. I don't know. But I thought the movie utilizes more Narnian creatures than the book seemed to. Yeah, because there's no mention of any crew members that, like, aren't human.
• 1:21:16
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker B: Except for Reepicheep. I thought the return of Edwards Edmund's flashlight was fun. Assuming that you remember that that happened in the previous movie, which you did not.
• 1:21:28
  Speaker A: No, I just at one point. Well. And I must have been taking a note when Caspian gave it back to him.
• 1:21:33
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker A: Because we just were later in the movie, and all of a sudden Edmund was using a flashlight. I was like, where did he get a flashlight? I just. I was writing a note when Caspian gave it back to him.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker B: I liked the creepier intro to the Lone Islands and the Slave traders, where they, like, show up and it seems deserted. I thought that was fun. I kind of liked making the duffel pods seem more ominous at first in the book. They're always kind of silly seeming, even when they're invisible. I also liked having the mansion be invisible. That is not the case. In the book, they can just see the house. I will also say that I thought the threat of the green mist worked better as an explanation for why the magician turned the Duffelpuds invisible in the book. I'm not really sure why he did it. The explanation seems to be that it's because they're stupid.
• 1:22:30
  Speaker A: To be honest, I didn't connect it to the green mist in the movie. I thought it was because they were stupid.
• 1:22:35
  Speaker B: Okay.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker A: That was what I got from the movie, was that he's like, you idiots can't take care of yourselves. I'm gonna turn you invisible.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker B: Fair enough.
• 1:22:42
  Speaker A: I didn't realize he was relating it to them.
• 1:22:44
  Speaker B: I thought he was hiding them from the mist.
• 1:22:46
  Speaker A: Could be. I don't know. I didn't get that connection. Oh, well, maybe it was.
• 1:22:50
  Speaker B: Maybe this one's just a wash then. I had a really hard time kind of following that particular story in the book. Like, I spent most of it being like, what is going on anyway? Yeah. So maybe that one's kind of a wash. I do like also that Eustace got to be a dragon for longer in the movie. And I thought that having him fight the sea serpent and then also his relationship with Reepicheep did a lot for his character arc because his character arc is very truncated in the book. He's awful, and then he becomes a dragon, and he spends, like, a chapter or two as a dragon, and then he's great after that.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker B: So I thought the movie handled that a little better.
• 1:23:33
  Speaker A: I agree. I think his character arc and everything with him was, like, maybe the best thing about the movie.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker B: I agree.
• 1:23:41
  Speaker A: I think it could have if they had expanded more with Lucy and that little girl's relationship and Caspian and Edmund's relationship. If those three had been, like, the main sort of actual, like, driving force. Driving force of the movie, as opposed to, like, the actual, like, the overarching plot or if they. It's not even the drive. But if they had spent more time. If they had spent as much time on the other two plot lines as they had on the Eustace plotline and fleshed them out equally to the Eustace plot line, I think they could have actually had a really solid, just overall film. But yeah, because I agree. I thought the Eustace storyline actually worked really well. I thought his whole arc worked really well and was, like, very fun and sweet and. And interesting.
• 1:24:23
  Speaker B: And my last note is that I like that Lucy got to hug Reep Cheep before he goes to Aslan's country. Because the book makes a point of telling us at the beginning that Lucy has always really wanted to cuddle, reap, cheep. Like a cat.
• 1:24:38
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:24:39
  Speaker B: Because he's about the size of a cat. So I liked that the movie let her do that.
• 1:24:44
  Speaker A: All right, let's go ahead and find out what Katie thought the movie nailed. As I expected, practically perfect in every way.
• 1:24:55
  Speaker B: I thought the movie nailed the description of the painting with the Nardian ship in it. There's a specific line in that beginning scene where Eustace is, like, talking about how the painting is ugly and Edmund says, you won't see it from the other side of the door. That's from the book. I also thought the Dawn Treader itself was pretty spot on to how it's described in the book with, like, the dragon mast and everything. Caspian's quarters on the ship have the giant golden lion crest on the wall. Eustace continually insisting on finding the British Consulate.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:25:35
  Speaker B: Eustace also keeps a diary for part of the book. The book, they do sail through a storm that lasts for, like, weeks. Lillian, maybe it was at least supposed to be, like, a few days or something. Liliandel, the star lady, is pretty spot on to what's in the book. Her appearance and the way that she, like, comes down from the skies in the movie is very similar to the way that the Blue Fairy appears in Disney's Pinocchio, which I thought was interesting. Not sure if that was intentional or if I was supposed to get anything from it, but I thought it was interesting. Yeah, this was kind of a blink and you miss it moment in the movie, but there is an albatross that leads them out of the darkness.
• 1:26:20
  Speaker A: I saw that fly in. I thought it was a seagull, but yeah. Yeah.
• 1:26:25
  Speaker B: There is a moment in the book when they're fighting the sea serpent where it wraps itself around the ship and tries to break it in half. And then at the very end, they sail through a sea of lilies that was really. I was actually border of Aslan's country.
• 1:26:40
  Speaker A: I thought that was really cool visual. There's some cool shots of that.
• 1:26:44
  Speaker B: It's kind of cool the way that it's described in the book because they talk about, like, they're sailing through these lilies and it gets, like, progressively shallower and shallower as though the ocean is, like, literally ending.
• 1:26:55
  Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, I. Like I said I thought those shots are really cool. And I want to talk more about the cinematography here in just a second, so let's get right into it before we get to the final verdict. We have a handful of odds. And when we first discover Lord Byrne, who's the first Lord they find in that dungeon where they get captured by the slavers or whatever, he, like, comes looming out of the darkness and I think Caspian or somebody's. Or maybe Edmund goes like. Or they hear his voice and Edmund or somebody's like, who are you? And then his face comes leering out of the darkness. And I was like, it's Alan Moore. Because if you've seen Alan Moore, I was like, did they cast Alan Moore to play this guy looked just like him. Which was cracking me. Just to make it obvious, Alan Moore is the guy who wrote Watchmen and the one we just did.
• 1:27:56
  Speaker B: Yeah. V for Vendetta.
• 1:27:57
  Speaker A: V for Vendetta and other stuff. Yeah. But Lord Byrne looks like Alan Moore in this movie.
• 1:28:04
  Speaker B: Going back to what you were saying earlier about how they were treating Eustace for not acclimating to Narnia very well, I thought it was pretty unfair of those crew members to laugh at Eustace for talking to a seagull. Most of the animals in Narnia talk like. Yeah, like famously talking animals in Narnia. Like, how was he supposed to know?
• 1:28:26
  Speaker A: Yeah, No, I agree. Yeah. Just the whole thing. They're like. I'm like, guys, come on, though.
• 1:28:31
  Speaker B: He's never like. I get that he's obnoxious, but he's never been here before.
• 1:28:37
  Speaker A: So, as I mentioned, I kind of hated the shooting style of this movie, but at the same time, I didn't. I don't know how to describe. It was very interesting. This movie uses a lot of handheld shots. Like, a lot of the movie is shot handheld or at least appearing to look handheld. And it also uses a lot of wide angle lenses. Like, there's a lot of shots that are like handheld camera, wide angle, close to somebody's face. It feels kind of like a documentary or something. And there, to me, it just didn't make sense for this story at all. Like, there are some moments where it kind of works, but a lot of it, it felt like watching like a Spike Lee movie, which. And. And just doesn't make sense to me. For Narnia. To me, Narnia, when you're in Narnia, should be a lot of sweeping, grand.
• 1:29:33
  Speaker B: I agree.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker A: Camera moves and it should look very traditional.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker B: Like an epic fantasy.
• 1:29:38
  Speaker A: Yeah, it should look very traditional. It should look like it should be filmed like Lord of the Rings or like Lawrence of Arabia or, you know, pick. Pick 1 billion but they shot it, but not all of it, which is really weird. Some of it is kind of more traditional, but there are lots of moments where we have these, like, wide angle, handheld looking shots. Shots that took me so out of the viewing experience in a way. There's also some really gorgeous stuff, though. So I. It's not like I said, some of the shots of the. The. I would really be interested to hear the director talk about the choice in this. To me, it just feels like a time period style thing. It's 2010. We're not. We're just a few years after, I think. When did the first Hunger Games came out come out?
• 1:30:17
  Speaker B: Oh, 2008, maybe.
• 1:30:20
  Speaker A: We're in that time period where we're kind of like a grittier type of visual style. It was a little like. Again, I. I don't know if they're playing off of like, the Hunger Games popularity because that used like a very handheld kind of like. Which makes sense for that, though, because it is some kind of like a documentary style, like war film. Like.
• 1:30:39
  Speaker B: Yeah. And part of it, you are supposed to feel like you're watching it on tv, right?
• 1:30:43
  Speaker A: And like you're watching it on TV and like, it is almost like a documentary. Whereas this is not. That's not what this show like at all. And it doesn't go that far. But there's just lots of. There are lots of moments where I'm like, why are we doing. Doing this handheld? Like, there's shots where we're like, watching people's feet walk with, like, a handheld shot, like, wide angle, low to the ground. Like, this doesn't feel like. I don't know, it doesn't feel like Narnia to me. It just doesn't feel like what it. I don't know then. Apart from that, though, there were some really, like I said, the whole lilies thing at the end, the shot where they find the guy in the gold pool, where the camera's under the water looking up and Edmund walks, like, into the light coming from the cave is like. And it's like silhouette. It's like a gorgeous shot. And like, there's some really cool stuff in the movie. So I kept having this whiplash of like, why are we shooting it this way? Mixed with like, oh, that's really cool and looks really good. Mixed with like. But why. Why are you shooting it like a war movie documentary? Like, it's just. And then I wondered if I was like, wait, maybe it's. And I couldn't remember what the pirates movies looked like. And I wondered if maybe what they were doing was trying to look like a pirate. Mimic the look of the Pirates of the Caribbean movie. Because this is kind of like a pirate adventure. Mov is kind of what it is. I would have to go back and watch especially some of the later movies. I don't think they were shot that way. I don't think they. I think they were mostly. I don't think they were like handheld and stuff, but I don't know, I thought it was really interesting. I was like, why are we. It's very interesting visual choice, cinematography choice. I guess I assume that was more on the director than the cinematographer could. That stuff's always an amalgamation of people. But I thought it was very strange. And I actually legitimately would be interested in seeing if there's a commentary track talking about why they made that choice.
• 1:32:27
  Speaker B: I thought the captain of the Dawn Treader, the bald guy, had such weird energy throughout the film.
• 1:32:36
  Speaker A: Really.
• 1:32:36
  Speaker B: I kept expecting him to be. I didn't realize he was a traitor or something. Cause I felt like he had a weird ominous energy throughout the entire movie.
• 1:32:48
  Speaker A: Yeah. I think he's the first officer, isn't he?
• 1:32:51
  Speaker B: No, he's the captain.
• 1:32:53
  Speaker A: Isn't Caspian the captain of the. Caspian's the king of Narnia. But isn't he also the captain of that ship?
• 1:33:01
  Speaker B: No, no, there's the separate captain.
• 1:33:04
  Speaker A: Oh, that was not okay. The vibe I got was that Caspian was captain of that ship and that that guy was like his first officer or whatever. But I thought that guy had a great. I thought he does have a weird energy. But he felt right for like as a first officer when I assumed that's what he was. That's like the exact perfect naval first officer type of energy.
• 1:33:22
  Speaker B: Fair enough.
• 1:33:22
  Speaker A: It feels like kind. You're like, is this guy gonna just like shoot somebody for no reason? Or like, is he. But he's also very loyal to. I don't know, like I thought his dynamic worked for. He's not in the movie a ton, but he just reminded me a lot of other similar type characters in movies like pirates and master and commander and stuff like that.
• 1:33:40
  Speaker B: I want to talk about the effect that they used when Lucy transformed into Susan.
• 1:33:46
  Speaker A: They did it tw too.
• 1:33:47
  Speaker B: They did it twice. And I thought it was so smooth.
• 1:33:50
  Speaker A: It's really good.
• 1:33:51
  Speaker B: It was really like you almost don't even notice it happening. And then suddenly she's Susan. And I also. It made me realize what a good job they did of casting them as sisters.
• 1:34:00
  Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. Cuz you don't, like, when you look at them, it doesn't feel like they look that similar. But then the transition.
• 1:34:06
  Speaker B: The transition. I was like, holy crap.
• 1:34:08
  Speaker A: Yeah. They just like. It's like magic.
• 1:34:10
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:34:10
  Speaker A: I was like, yeah, I. I completely agree. I thought it was funny that Ben Barnes just keeps ending up in things with not even, like, the same things, but just things with similar stuff in them.
• 1:34:21
  Speaker B: Yeah. With, like, similar random elements.
• 1:34:24
  Speaker A: Yeah. Which I thought was really funny. So Ben Barnes, who plays Caspian in this, we mentioned in the prequel, he is the young version of Duncan in Stardust.
• 1:34:34
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:34:35
  Speaker A: From, like, the flashback or whatever.
• 1:34:37
  Speaker B: Yeah. He's the young version of the main character's father.
• 1:34:41
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:34:41
  Speaker B: Or.
• 1:34:41
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 1:34:42
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:34:42
  Speaker A: Yeah. And in Stardust, one of the main. The reason it's called Stardust, the main element of that, if you haven't read or watched it, is a star comes down and from the heavens and ends up on Earth and takes the form of a human woman.
• 1:35:02
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:35:02
  Speaker A: And I was like, oh, when that happened in this movie, I was like, man, Ben Barnes. And then later in the movie, when they get to the Aslan's country, the effect of the wall, it's like this wall of water that is, like, curling up. It's like a giant tidal wave that's, like, frozen, basically, like, stuck there. But it looks almost exactly like the Rift, or whatever it's called From Shadow and Bone.
• 1:35:28
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:35:28
  Speaker A: Where he's like one of the main. He's the. The villain in that. But in. In Shadow and Bone, it's like. It's kind of, like, dark because it's like. It's like darkness or whatever. But it's very similar from my memory, like, the shape of it and everything is very similar.
• 1:35:41
  Speaker B: And, like, the way it moves.
• 1:35:42
  Speaker A: Yeah. It's like a wave. It's like a curling, like, static wave, basically. And I just thought it was. I was like, it's such a weird coincidence, these little things. Anyways, I thought it was funny.
• 1:35:53
  Speaker B: Yeah. I had forgotten about the star in the form of a woman in this story. Now I'm wondering if Gaiman, like, copped that idea from this book. Book.
• 1:36:03
  Speaker A: Very well could have.
• 1:36:04
  Speaker B: Very well could have another thought. The thing that I thought was interesting in the movie was the Jill Pole name drop at the end. Yeah. Because that's a character who appears in the next book. And I. I guess they were still planning to make another movie, I think.
• 1:36:19
  Speaker A: Very clearly, with the way they set up Eustace at the end where he's like, can I come back? And they're like, I'm sure we'll need.
• 1:36:25
  Speaker B: You in the sequel.
• 1:36:27
  Speaker A: Basically, it's like literally what Asl Land's last line to him is. So. Yeah, I think they very much were setting up another.
• 1:36:35
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:36:35
  Speaker A: To potentially make another movie. My last note was, and I kind of alluded to this throughout the episode, it was a perfectly fun little adventure movie. Like, I actually enjoyed watching it the whole time. I had almost no idea what was actually going on with the plot. Like, I. I followed it enough to know, like, okay, now they're trying to go here to get a sword or whatever. But, like, why, like, the little intricacies of, like, why they needed the swords and, like, what the swords were gonna do when they got them and why they needed to put them on the table and what, like, all of that. Like, I was like, oh, I don't know any of what's going on here.
• 1:37:12
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 1:37:12
  Speaker A: But it also didn't really matter that much to me.
• 1:37:15
  Speaker B: No, it was. It was a fun movie. I think the problem basically was that they took a story that already had had kind of a vague, overarching plot and then tried to stack another vague, overarching plot on top of it.
• 1:37:32
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 1:37:33
  Speaker B: So, yeah, I don't know.
• 1:37:34
  Speaker A: Like I said, I enjoyed it. I was like, yeah, that was fun to watch. Like, if I had gone to see that in the movie theater when I was 15, I would have loved it. I would have been like, this is great. Or even older. I would have been like, yeah, that was fun. I would not be disappointed having seen that movie. But I don't think it also would have stuck with me very much because it's just like.
• 1:37:51
  Speaker B: And we're gonna catch back up on this in a year or something and see if you remember any.
• 1:37:55
  Speaker A: Is a bad experiment because we watched it and recorded the episode while I'm sick and taking, like, cold medicine all day. So, like, yeah, I. Who knows how much I'll remember. But we'll do our best if they ever.
• 1:38:08
  Speaker B: If they ever make the show.
• 1:38:11
  Speaker A: That's true.
• 1:38:12
  Speaker B: We'll watch the show and we'll see if. We'll see if anything rings a bell.
• 1:38:15
  Speaker A: Yeah. Before we wrap up, we wanted to. Or before we get to the final Verdi one to remind you, you can head over to Facebook, Instagram, Threads, Goodreads, Blue sky, any of those places interact with us. We'd love to hear what you have to say about the Chronicles of the Voyage of the Dawn Treader. You can also drop us the five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you listen to us. We'd really appreciate that. You can support us by heading over to patreon.com thisfilmislit subscribe for 2, 5 or 15 bucks a month. You get access to bonus content starting at the $5 level and priority recommendations where if you have something that you would really like for us to talk about at the $15 a month level, you can recommend it and we will do it as soon as we can what was our bonus episode this month?
• 1:38:55
  Speaker B: Or have we done this we haven't done this month yet.
• 1:38:57
  Speaker A: What was last month?
• 1:38:58
  Speaker B: What last month was the favorite.
• 1:39:00
  Speaker A: That's right. And then what is this month?
• 1:39:02
  Speaker B: Sugar and Spice.
• 1:39:03
  Speaker A: Yeah. So those are the bonus episodes that are out slash coming out. So look out for more of those. Katie, it's time for the final verdict.
• 1:39:14
  Speaker B: Sentence fast. Verdict after. That's stupid. To start off my final verdict, I want to revisit a quote that I included in our prequel episode from researcher Sue Baines. In contrast to other Narnia books, Dawn Treader has virtually no overt villains. Rather, the plot confronts the protagonists again and again with the flaws of their own character. The Voyage of the Dawn Treader is more episodic than any of the other Narnia books, with its focus being slightly more character driven than the others. The characters are confronted with temptations and must learn not to be led astray from who they truly are. In trying to keep these elements while also adding an overarching plot and central villain in the mysterious Green Mist, I think that the movie stumbled. While I definitely understand wanting to add those overarching elements to what is, as I said, an episodic story, the result was half baked and left me with more questions than answers. What was the Green Mist? Where did it come from? There isn't any basis for it in the lore of either the books or the previous two movies. Why does laying all the swords on the table destroyed it? Why did that supercharge Edmund's sword? I don't have any answers to these questions, which is a problem considering that the movie makes it the central conflict of the story. The quest to retrieve seven swords in order to defeat a Big Bad is a good idea in theory, but it just doesn't pan out. While there were other smaller things that I liked better about the book or better about the movie, it really comes down to that one big change. And it's the brain reason that I'm going to give this one to the book.
• 1:41:04
  Speaker A: Katie, what's next?
• 1:41:05
  Speaker B: Up next, we are going to be talking about Horton Hears a who.
• 1:41:10
  Speaker A: We're almost out of Seuss. Right.
• 1:41:12
  Speaker B: I think this might be our last Seuss.
• 1:41:14
  Speaker A: Yeah. That's like been made at least so far in terms of. There may be some animated specials that.
• 1:41:20
  Speaker B: Maybe but Big movie. Yeah. I think this is our. If I'm remembering right, I think this is our last feature films. Seuss.
• 1:41:30
  Speaker A: What was the. The.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker B: We did Cat in the Hat. We've done the Grinch.
• 1:41:33
  Speaker A: And then the. The tree one.
• 1:41:36
  Speaker B: The Lorax.
• 1:41:37
  Speaker A: Lorax. Yeah. I don't know if there's a. And then. Yeah. Hortonier 2. I don't know if there's another one. There's no one fish two fish fish. There's no Green Eggs and Ham.
• 1:41:49
  Speaker B: No.
• 1:41:50
  Speaker A: Oh, the places you'll go. No, some of the racist ones. I don't. Yeah. I don't know.
• 1:41:58
  Speaker B: Yeah, I think this might be. This might be it.
• 1:42:00
  Speaker A: So anyways, that'll be it. In two weeks time we'll be talking about Horton here. I don't remember anything about that. I don't even remember.
• 1:42:07
  Speaker B: I don't think I've ever seen the movie.
• 1:42:08
  Speaker A: I know I haven't seen the movie. I'm trying. I don't remember what the book's about. Like what the.
• 1:42:12
  Speaker B: The book is. This is the one that has the line in it that gets co opted by pro lifers. Oh, so that'll be fun to talk about.
• 1:42:21
  Speaker A: Oh, I think I. Yeah. Vague memory. Yeah.
• 1:42:24
  Speaker B: And yes, I do mean co opted.
• 1:42:26
  Speaker A: Yeah. The. No matter how small.
• 1:42:27
  Speaker B: Come back for more on that.
• 1:42:28
  Speaker A: Yeah, cool. All right. We'll be talking about that in two weeks time and in one week's time, we're previewing Horton Hears a who and getting all of your feedback on the Voyage of the Dawn Treader. Until that time, guys, gals, not battery pals.
• 1:42:40
  Speaker B: Everybody else keep reading books, keep watching movies and keep being awesome. Sa.