Latest / Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation / Episode #36-Brett Sylver

Transcript

Episode #36-Brett Sylver · Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to this episode of Turning Grief into Grief, The Journey of Transformation.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is comic and asset, hosted by Greg Jacobs and Dum Lipstick.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, good morning, Dom.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: We're back for another episode.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to correct myself because it's actually afternoon.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: And do you know why?
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because our guest hails from the West Coast.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we decided to go ahead and give him a little grace and mercy on the three-hour time change and uh record this a little later uh in the morning uh into the afternoon.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: So how are you doing, Domin?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: How art thou today?
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm doing pretty good, except I um I had a dream uh last last night and it was about being a muffler.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't be feeling a dead exhausted.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh exhausted.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: I get it.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a minus joke.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Really, that's what you bring in this morning?
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: They never get old.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: He's got a whole uh repertoire of them right there on his desk.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: So I think I think Brett has heard some of them too.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like the horse walks into the bar, the bartender says, Why the long face?
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Is that the word?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Duncan, why don't you uh introduce us to our guest Brett today?
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: So Brett is you know, he's a bereaved father, but more than that, he is somebody that I've gotten to know uh pretty well because we travel around in the same circle.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and um I feel like you know he's become a good friend.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I um I'm gonna let him uh introduce himself because he's got so many hats that he wears.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um I mean, he's an aspiring actor.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um and um he's a father, he's a husband.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: So uh Brett, why don't you just kind of introduce yourself and and tell us a little bit about you and and how you got into this grief world.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh oh, thanks, guys.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Greg.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh thanks, Don.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, so I think um, you know, it was just going through life.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we were we were in New York.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my wife and I, we were blessed to have twin boys.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, remember when she got pregnant, and I remember thinking, um, oh, we're gonna have twins.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, oh, that's great.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, my first choice was uh two girls, because I figured two girls, they they love their daddies.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then I thought, uh, maybe second choice, boy and a girl.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, get one of each, you're done.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Third choice was two bo two boys, and sure enough, we found out we were having two boys because I was imagining that I'd get the Menendez brothers.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um so um, so it wasn't it wasn't like that at all.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: It was amazing, it was great.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh uh two years after that, three years after that almost, we had uh our little guy Anderson.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: And uh before that, I uh I was 22.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: I was uh I I had a uh was I had a relationship with an older woman, she was about seven years older than me, and uh she got pregnant, and I have a daughter also from that who's about to turn 36, I think, in September.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I have I have four kids.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how did I get to this?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: So uh basically we moved from New York.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my wife got offered an amazing job to come up to California to be the creative director of a company called uh Fabletics, and I said, let's go for the adventure.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: And uh we came out here and uh you know I had a couple jobs, and my last job, if you would listen to the tape that was playing in my head, it was, oh, you know, um, oh, my boss is this, oh, I gotta get that done, I gotta fight with the insurance company, blah, blah, blah.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: It was like nonsense.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: It was nonsense.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then all of a sudden on January 13th, 2024, uh, my son Harrison took his life, and uh, my whole world, our whole world, uh imploded.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: And at that point, the whole slate is wiped clean, and you realize that all the silly things that took up all your attention that got you so crazy or was meaningless.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it and it really, really got you to focus on what was most important in life.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and then you know, you you you deviate back and you're right back where you were, and you catch yourself and you you reset.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so after those uh after we found out, I reached out to Don right away.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: I can share what we do together with Don.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Don uh runs a group uh uh for for dads who lost their children to suicide because it's a very unique group of people.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh as we say, nobody wants to be part of it, but it's it's the only people that truly understand this particular loss.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I found my place with Don and uh the guys in the group, and many of us have been together for two and a half years since we, you know, some of us have lost, and it's a real place of safety, and and I feel like people that truly understand, you know, this particular grief.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: So um yeah, Don.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to make sure I'm not, you know.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh no, you're you're doing fine.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that group uh it's coping after suicide.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we can we can mention that, but okay.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um Brett, uh, you know, uh you're two and a half years out, which in the grief world is not much time.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um I mean, you're still pretty fresh, although our our culture might you know argue that, but yeah, I know I know when we've lost a child under any circumstance, it it's more complicated.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh with suicide, it's um I feel like a lot more complex.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um so how is it that you're able to be a guest here on this podcast um and you know talk about uh your grief?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: I I think it's great.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's amazing that you can.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um I know it it's you know it's a good question.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: It can be hard.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know I I think you know, in my life, um, I've had a lot of grief from an early, early age.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um let me share a little bit about my upbringing.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I grew up in New York City in a story of Queens.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh my my my dad left when I was five, and I never could understand how a parent could just leave their children.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: It just didn't make any sense.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then I I had an older brother as my mom, myself, my older brother.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I had always wanted my brother to uh, you know, be like the courtship of Eddie's father, if that means anything to you, you know, like to be like this big brother and throw the football and baseball around with me.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: But he, you know, the day I came home from the hospital, he just beat the shit out of me, is what my mother said, and he beat the shit out of me my whole life.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: And um then uh when I was like 19, he was living in Pennsylvania and uh he said, Hey, he was 21, I was 19.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Hey Brett, I want you to come out here, I want you to be my brother, I want to develop our relationship.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: So he was in downing town, Pennsylvania, sent me money for a ticket.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, Oh, that's the kind of brother I was looking for.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And uh we hung out, and then our relationship got really strong.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then that August, he was hit by a car and he died, and I was in college, and um, I was completely, you know, my life imploded there.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And um I don't know that I put myself in therapy right away, but I started yeah, I started therapy at 19 and was in and out, and then when I was like 23, I've been in therapy since I'm 23 twice a week.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I've had a lot of time, I'm 59 now, I'll be 60 in October.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: I've had a lot of time to work on issues and and develop the skill of talking about things that I've gone through.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: And um when my kids were born, you know, Harry, Jack, and Andy, we had we had three, four rules that we added a fourth when they got older.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: But the three rules was no motorcycles, no tattoos, no suicide, permanent solution for temporary problem.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then when they got older, no powders or pills.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: And everybody knew those rules.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, Harrison, he graduated Sumakun Laoud from his, you know, he his he has a twin brother Jackson, as I mentioned.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: And um Harry graduated Sumakun Loud.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think Jackson was right behind him, and they I didn't know this at the time, but they had a very like competitive relationship and also supportive relationship in the sense that they kept each other in check.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: If this one was here, this one felt like, oh, I'm falling behind, I gotta catch up.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't realize that.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: So they both send their letters to college.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Jackson, he's opening his uh NYU, he's in, Harry, not in.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: USC, Jackson's in, Harry, safety school, not in.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then he gets accepted to the University of Seattle on the wait list, which is not exactly like we want you.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's more like, ah, if somebody else doesn't show up, eh, maybe you'll be the guy we take.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't think that was a ringing endorsement.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how that played.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, this Harry was of all my children, Harry was the straightest, and I would have never expected this from him.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: And we did not see this coming, and nobody saw this coming.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: And we we he was part of a fraternity.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: He was one of the leading guys at the fraternity.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: We flew up to Seattle afterwards.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: We asked his fraternity brothers, did any of you see this coming?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: No, nobody saw anything.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: We asked all his friends here in Hermosa Beach, he had a big group of friends that loved him, none of them saw it.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: And we had just come back from a vacation, a beautiful vacation, really, really special with a family.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I asked the cousins, nobody saw it coming.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so when that happened, um I reached out to Don immediately.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I threw myself into like four days of therapy.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and I didn't know what else, like that was the only tool I knew to try to use.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like um, I didn't know what else to do.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I just threw myself in, and at four days a week, I had a psychiatrist, I had my psychotherapist from New York twice a week, and then we added on a grief counselor, and then the sessions, you know, uh coping after suicide with Don.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I had five days a week I was working on this, and I'm still doing that.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm at four days a week now.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that was all I knew how to do.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: And if Don will tell the story that when I first started with him, I couldn't talk.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I couldn't talk in those in that first session.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think we're I'm on my fifth session with the guys.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's five sessions now.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: They're 10 cycles.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Cycles, yeah.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: So the 10 set 10 uh weeks and then a break, and then 10.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um and now I can talk.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um not only if if you don't mind, uh Brett, but not only can he talk, but he's also a um a strong support for those newer in their grief, you know, the the new ones that are coming into the cycle.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um he's been pretty uh pretty helpful.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think it's easy for our listeners um to maybe think that's a very small feat being able to talk.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's a miracle for a lot of people.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I've witnessed it time and time again in peer support groups that I've lead where watching them, um, you know, you ask them if they want have anything to share if they want to talk, and then they just there's just this freeze on them and they just can't can't do it and can't open up.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then uh over time by putting the work in, uh, they're able to.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: So good for you, Brett.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's a huge accomplishment and uh mountain to climb.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: I did want to comment.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it's interesting because we uh, you know, both of you are uh dads who have had sons uh from loss of suicide.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: And mine was a nanox.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so totally different loss, but at the same time, it's that instant that they're gone and you don't get to say goodbye.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like you know, a brain tumor that slowly takes your son over a 12-month period of time.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's it's just that instant loss.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: So um, one of the things we hear a lot of is there were no warning signs.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: There was no indication.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: And there are out there with suicide, don't get me wrong.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of people that struggle hard with mental health, and it's a very obvious, extroverted uh aspect of struggling.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then you hear those that is like there was no warning signs, their fraternity mates didn't see it, we didn't see it.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's easy for a parent uh or the loved one that's closest to be able to say, was I naive?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Did I miss it?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: What was going on?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: And the truth is, it's just it's hard for those people to really know how to express their feelings and to reach out.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how would you what would you comment uh to that for those that are listening?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: That uh because in in the the end result I'm getting to here is check in on your loved ones, take the the the taboo topic out of the equation.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I constantly ask my my wife, my son, my daughter, have you had any suicidal ideations?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: How are you doing with your mental health?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure you know, you know, you could talk to me, uh, type thing.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so just talk to us a little bit about that.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, you you mentioned a lot of uh things that went on.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, um we kind of wish that we would have been able to say something like, you know, he really struggled with his mental health issues and and the disease got him.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: But we we didn't have that story.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Our story was sideswiped.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then um I think that um there were some things that I did that I looked back on and I'm like, I knew something was wrong.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: I knew something was wrong.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: So there's there's there's two things.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's incredible guilt, you know, and I think a lot of the guys in my group have guilt.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and but then there was almost a moment of when you look back on it, I'm like, I knew it, I knew it, I knew it, I knew it.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: And let me sort of take you through that, if you don't mind, the um that part of it.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um so back in 2008, I had uh shifted jobs and I landed at American Express travel and leisure uh in 2008, the day before Barack Obama was elected president.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: And if you remember at that time, Lehman Brothers was crashing, gone, Bayer was gone, the Dow was I was a financial advisor by trade.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: I remember all too well 2008.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the Dow was cut from 14,000 and changed to 66 or 6,800, and the world was and you didn't know what was gonna happen.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I start this new job, I get a big raise, and I can't sell anything.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, that's the only um that that's what you that's what you can feel good about.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, look, I so look what I'm doing, and you can't, and I'm terrified that I'm gonna lose everything.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I spun out of control and I had the worst year and I lost 40 pounds.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: I was walking, I'd be on the train at five in the morning, blah, blah, blah.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: And my management, there was some managers in there that were like very like um, I don't do very well with uh the fear approach in management, you know.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I need more like, you know, supportive, and then I'll take a bullet.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you I'll shut down, and the whole world was imploding.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: So fast forward a year and a half later, I get out of it, and now I I look back, and and um Harry was on my couch and and he was about to leave for school the next day.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I shared the story with him.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Harry, I said, listen, let me tell you the story.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: I said, blah, blah, blah.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was at American Express, this thing, my world, and my world was crazy.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like this giant 70-inch screen blaring at me.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: I said, now, Harry, I look back at that, and it's not even one pixel.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't even remember why.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: So Harry, my brain was sending me my this a voice in my head was telling like scaring me and threatening me.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I go, Harry, tell me what is the voice saying in your head.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Something told me to tell him that story.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then he said, Don't worry about it.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's what's it that was Harry's go-to line.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like, you know, in our household, I've been in therapy since I'm 19, my wife's been in therapy, Andy Anderson's been in therapy, Jack's been in therapy, and Jack and Harry was was like our Michael P.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Keaton, you know, like he was like, you know, he was the kid that was just different.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so he didn't want to go and talk about his feelings.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: But we tried and we talked to him, and then he went back to school.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember on that Wednesday, he took his life on Saturday, and I texted him and I said, Hey Harry, just checking in.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember thinking, I don't want to make a big deal out of it because I think things are not so good, and I just want to be a little gentle.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was gonna go up there that weekend because I felt I needed to go up there.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I had a work event, I had to go to Dallas on Tuesday.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: So um uh early morning of Saturday, uh September 14th, at 1.30 in the morning, 1.38 in the morning, I get a phone call and I jump out of bed, like like alarms are going off.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't do that, you know, like I just what's going on?
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I grab my phone and I see it's Harry.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, Harry, what's up?
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: What's up?
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: You okay?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, Yeah, yeah, I'm fine.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Can I come home?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh yeah, Harry, come home, come home.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: Your mom's in Miami, she's flying in on Sunday, I gotta go to Dallas, but come home, come home.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: You okay?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm okay, Dad.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I hung up and I laid back in bed, and I could feel the bed literally like sinking into the bed.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I've never had this thought before.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, call him back, call him back, call him back.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: No, you're overthinking.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Call him back, call him back, and then I fell asleep.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the next day, I didn't hear from him, I texted them that night.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: I sent him some crazy text, text I've never sent before with crazy emojis.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then I picked Nancy up on Sunday.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Harry's not calling me back.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I thought I'm worried.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then we got on the phone and we started calling around, and they kicked in his door, and then I forgot, I lost my train of thought.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so sorry.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Where was I going with this?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: No, you're good.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think we're talking about just the fact of the warning signs.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, sometimes you could see them, sometimes you can't.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's also the blame that we place on ourselves.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you how do you work through um blaming yourself and saying, if only I could have done more, should have done more, coulda, shoulda, woulda type thing.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm on both sides of this argument.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, on the one side, I I feel like I knew, I feel like I screwed up, I feel like I we failed him.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like we moved to California.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: I knew not to rip him out.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I was, when the boys were little, I remember I remember my therapist saying, after they're seven, don't pull them out.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's like ripping out weeds and it messes up their lives.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: And we moved when he was, I think, 15.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we came here and then they hit COVID and and that was terrible.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: And they, you know, school at home and whatever that did.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and then um so on the on the one hand, I blame myself every single day.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then on the other note, it's like I know, you know, you know, like Don said uh at the beginning of this call, sorry, you know, that uh I helped other people in the group, and and I don't have a connection to that.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't really know that.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm like, really?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm like, really?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And when I think about my kids, you know, sometimes I don't think that I've been that great of a father.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't been a bad father, but I'm not thinking like, oh, you're such a great father.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um but um I didn't have anything to do with you know, like I did like my like I said when I started out, my dad split when I was five, and I vowed I will never ever leave my children.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been there for them, and I did so the truth of the matter is for whatever reason Harry made this choice.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't make this choice.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: My therapist said if he died of a you know a disease, you know, you wouldn't feel guilt.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And this is like no different.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: But yet every guy in our group, I think nearly every father in my group blames himself.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we say it was our one job was to take care of our kids and our family, and we failed.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: Now and and yet when you think about what you did as a father, um You were doing the best you could with the knowledge that you had at the time.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: And if you had a crystal ball to say, oh, on this day Harry's going to take his life, you probably would have handled things much differently than you did, but you didn't have that crystal ball.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: And you did what you know you did what the knowledge that you had.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: So that that's you know that's where I find comfort because same same issue with me.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I there were things that I should have known and then I was told I gotta stop shooting all over myself.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that's you know it it just makes a lot of sense.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's easy to look back as that Monday morning quarterback and and replay, you know, God, if I'd done this, if I had done that.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: But we didn't have that opportunity.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's you know so you were the best parent that you could have been.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you still are, you know, but you've got two three other children that that you're being a good parent too.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's you know, it's two and a half years out almost, and um you know, it's still a struggle.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's a lot of days you're you know, you can't get out of the bed, you just want to lay in front of the TV.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then you have moments you have breakthroughs where all of a sudden you realize, oh, I'm having a good time.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and like you can't believe you got here.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like you, you know, in the beginning, I was listening to one of your other um guests, and it's like it's you uh I think he said something like you know, you plant the seed because there's no way they can't see.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think you said something about cataracts, looking through cataracts, and and they can't.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think Don, you said you were in a good place after a certain number of years.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I I've talked to you about this.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I don't believe you.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: I don't believe you.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: How did you get there?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and I kind of know when this happened, I remember thinking I got through my my it's my brother, it'll be this August will be 40 years, and there's no pain there anymore.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of had that as a guidepost, and I knew on day one, you know, it's gonna be time.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: But again, I want to quote your your other guest it's time plus you gotta do the work.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, do the work plus the time.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we we repeat that over and over and over again on this podcast about putting the work in.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about how time does not heal all wounds, wounds will not heal unless there's time, but it's the secret sauce of putting the work in, and that looks different for everybody.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Some might be peer groups, some might be one-on-one therapy or psychology sessions, others might be getting out there and forming a foundation and you know, lobbying on behalf or whatever, yeah.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, but you got to put the work in.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I agree with you, Brad.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: I remember people that were five, ten years out telling me that uh, you know, if I put the work in, then it'll be better.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I just wanted to say BS.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't see it.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: There's no it's not in front of me.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not experiencing that at this stage.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: So how in the world?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: And we, you know, it's not a comparison session at all.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's more of hey, I'm gonna drop some little crumbles of hope here for you along the way, and I'm I'm gonna hold the flashlight for you in the meantime, and I'm just gonna, you know, show you that you're not alone.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's really what it's all about because you can't fix them.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's got their own journey.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:54
  unknown: Yeah.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm just it just reminded me um uh a couple silly things I'll say.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I went, you know, I started partying when I was 10.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: And when I was 25, I went into AA.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember that first um that first AA meeting, you know, they said you're crazy for the first year.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, you don't know what you're talking about.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was like, you know, and I and I was like, what do you people do Friday night?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: You're all losers.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember just yelling at them and not understanding how they could get through it, and then fast forward, I've got like 35 years almost now clean.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you know, you set up on the journey and like you you can get there.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: You you know, you just gotta do the blocking and tackling every day.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: You just have to set it up, whatever it is for you.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, whether it's like, you know, uh, as you mentioned, 30 steps, you know, one step.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: And before you know it, it's it's like I tell my kids, you know, when you look at four years of college in front of you, like, ah, four years of college, the hill looks really steep.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then at the end of the four years, you look black back, and and it happened in a blink of an eye.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're looking at it, it's an incredibly steep hill, but it's really not.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's both things simultaneously.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's like being guilty and knowing you didn't do it, uh, you know, time, you know.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: But if you just start on whatever path it is that that that works for you, uh you'll get there.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think has been the most helpful um to you uh through your turning grief into growth?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: What do you uh find you know has has helped you the most?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think it's been our group.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's been close friends who have been there to pick you up.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think it's um just taking the time to figure out your own journey and trying different things and and um and I think in the beginning I think it was like setting things up that you didn't want to do and just doing them as it as if it's almost like you know, faking it until you make it, you know, just just do things.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you hate doing it, just do it.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: And eventually they become a part of your life, and eventually you get distracted, and that moment of time you realize you you laugh for the first time, but you have to get reconnected because it's really so easy just to connection with other connections, yeah.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then it sound sounds like stretching your comfort zone maybe a little too.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um like when when you said that um the last part that just you have to do things that you don't want to do, you can do it anyway.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um so the peer, the peer support, we keep hearing that over and over again is as a recipe for moving forward um in the therapy.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: That it's so crucial and important.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, Don and I are firm advocates of that.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think for me, and you're not asking about me, you're asking about Brett, but I think it's a real similar scenario.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I had to learn to forgive myself uh because I blame myself.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: David called me 23 days before he died crying.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he got in trouble, and he was so ashamed that he didn't know how to make the phone call to me because he knew I would just be um embarrassed and shamed at him.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, man, did this lead?
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because he was intoxicated when he died.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, man, did this lead to his accident?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: What if I would have responded this way?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: Or what if I and I responded in love on that phone call.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: There was nothing there that was judgmental.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I had to learn to forgive myself and I had to learn to realize that there was probably nothing I could have done uh to prohibit that scenario from happening.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: And when I let myself off the hook and showed myself grace, I I tended to move forward a little more.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Did did you feel kind of the same way a little bit?
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um and if not, that's fine.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's different.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I'm there yet.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't I think I'm still stuck in you know guilt, guilt, guilt.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then intellectually, I understand it's this was not my choice.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't see it, but no, I don't think I'm there yet.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for admitting that.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: I that's what I love about having you on as a guest, uh, two and a half years out.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Don and I have talked a lot about this turning grief into growth is this whole transformation, it's a lifelong journey.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: And uh to admit that you're not there yet in a certain area, that's that's what I love.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: I love that uh vulnerability.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: Let me ask you in in relation to to what Greg just said, um do you see, do you see from the you know two and a half years ago or even two years ago, or a year and a half ago, um, any change in in how you are dealing with your breather?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think within the last three months, like you know, it's not as I mean, listen, I can go there in a blink of an eye and be, you know, it hits me.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: The waves are not the storm is not as severe.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um and but that's sad.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: I feel really sad about that.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like I feel like connected in that grief, in that crying.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: I feel connected to Harry.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think um, you know, I walk the dogs, and every once in a while I'll I'll look and and I'll you know, and I'll just cry on the on the walk.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I can do that at any drop of a hat, but but now it doesn't just happen automatically the way it used to.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like it would happen five times a day.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's once every three days.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we've talked about that too, about mourning the ability to be able to cry.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, because I used to be able to do it at the drop of a hat, now I can't, and I miss that.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost grieving your grief.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: That you're you're I know for me at at and it was somewhere around the three-year mark that I started just feeling like okay.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, does this mean like I'm gonna forget about Josh and I'm gonna like you know gonna stop loving him?
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_02: No, you know, it I I learned, um, but it scared me.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: It was like scary because I didn't want to leave him behind.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I I was moving forward and and you know, I had figured out ways to to bring him along with me.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but that grief, it it changes, and and it sounds like that's what's happening for you, Brett.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: That it's yeah, and I don't particularly like it.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like I don't like it.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like it.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like on some level, I don't like it.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's hard, it's that that's a hard place to be.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: I I remember I was I was breaking down all the time.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a leaf would drop and I'd you know break down crying and stuff.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, if I could only just keep it together, why is this happening?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now we have guests on.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: I saw you get you know a little choked up a little bit ago, and I I get jealous uh because I'm like, man, I miss that.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it's weird because when you're in the heat of the moment and you're you're in years one, two, and three, you don't know what you don't know.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then you get a little further down the road and it it starts going away a little bit, and you're like, you know, oh grief, my friend, where are you?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: I I want to cry, I want to uh be more in touch.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not that you're not in touch by not crying, um, it just it's different.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like like I said, you know, I know my brother's gonna be 40 years and there's no pain anymore.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of have that as an uh, you know, an outpost uh of of what will happen.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, I I I I shared this, you know, when when you're in that moment of like and you're like sobbing uncontrollably, and you and you just feel so connected.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember just not wanting to leave that place of sobbing uncontrollably, and no matter what, you can't stay there.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't allow you, it pushes you forward, it pushes you out.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and there's something about being in that space, just feel so connected.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and I try to stay there purposely, I try to stay there.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't want to leave, and it wouldn't let me stay.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of like no matter what, you're gonna get you're gonna move away from this, you you know, like you're gonna feel I don't know, better is the right word, different.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Different, I think that's a better word.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's not gonna be right there on the surface.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I could still go there.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like I not purpose, you know, not purposely, you know, but like I walked the dogs this morning, I was crying.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it it's not funny, but it's interesting to me because I'm like Greg, um but even further out, and I don't like I can remember very clearly what you're describing.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: I remember that happening with me, even though it's been a very long time for me.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I remember the feelings, but I can't bring them up like you know, it's very rare that you'll find me crying uh over Josh now.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, I did, uh, but it's it's different, but I can recall it like it was yesterday almost.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've asked people before, um, what where do you see yourself in five or ten years?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: And most people that are earlier on their grief are like, buddy, I I'm just trying to get through the day.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't know what tomorrow holds.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think the further you get down the road, the more you can uh see a little bit further.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I also think some of that business mindset of mind's gone by the wayside on a business plan for life.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I do just literally just embrace the day, you know, curpa diem.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and I think that's probably a healthier way to live.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: Not that it's not good to have goals or plans and trying to figure out 2027 vacation plans or whatever.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but uh I think it is just literally one day at a time and continuing to better yourself.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would agree with that.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, go ahead.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: If you had um something that you could offer to somebody just starting out on this journey, um just some nugget of of helpful um advice or information, uh what what would you throw out there to them?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, to find get connected in some way to something, whatever it is, you know, go swim every day or every other day, go uh turn this terrible moment into find something positive that will positively positively affect you, like whether that's you know, connecting with your family, going to psychotherapy, joining a group, uh um meditating, um, spirituality, um connecting to people, just connecting, helping others.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think there's something to be said about helping others.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think um there's something that you get back more than what you give out.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you might not feel it right away, but I think somehow it comes back to you.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that I think that's I I think I think I had a lot more empathy.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I'm I don't mean to change up, I'm just thinking about that.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: I had a lot more empathy and I realized how we have such limited time, and we spend so much of our time, or at least I did, many people I know, you know, fighting with the guy driving who cut you off, or the lady in the supermarket who's who's counting her change.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, get mad at that lady, you know, when you check it out, she's a bit of whatever.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, come on, I got it, just go, stop talking, just go, you know, and just realize take a take a breath and you know, just be a better person.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: You will like it, it just happens.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: And and and again, it's it's it's the being there for others and being there for my kids, and you know, I try to lead by an example, and I don't know that it worked, but I mean, maybe it did.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I put myself into therapy, like I said, four days a week plus you know, five days a week, whatever it was.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I was hoping that that would set an example to my family and my kids.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I got everybody into the grief counselor, everybody like I try to make that happen.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then we had family sessions.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and again, it's just trying to be there for other people.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, you know.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Brett, we can't thank you enough for being on.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think I was just a word of wisdom.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: Find something, find something that you do.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: I've gotten into collecting German, you know, vintage beer steins.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: Who would have thought that I, you know, that was just out of nowhere?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: But yesterday I I walk every day at the cemetery, about you know, a mile and a half to three miles, depending on the day.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I just encourage people to look up, look up, keep keep your eyes open.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, all of a sudden I look up and I've been looking down while I was walking, and there's two little fawns and the mother deer, and then there's a fox running across.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, man, I would have missed all of that if I hadn't looked up.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: So just keep your eyes open, look up.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's the little things in life.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and just know that uh we love you and we see you and you are not alone.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, Brett, thank you so much for joining us today.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you, Brett.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, thank you.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to listen.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: We hope turning grief into growth spoke to your heart and becomes a part of your own journey of healing and transformation.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: If you know someone who could use a little hope, please share this episode with them.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to follow, like, or subscribe on your favorite platform so you don't miss what's coming next.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: Don and I can't wait to share more conversations to help you keep turning your grief into growth.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time.