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From the archives: Sebern Fisher, MA, LMH, BCN · The Trauma Therapist

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  Speaker 1: Today we even another episode from the archives with one
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  Speaker 1: of my incredible guests. Enjoy Welcome to the Trauma Thepors's podcast,
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  Speaker 1: a show about the incredible people dedicated to helping those
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  Speaker 1: who experienced trauma. My name is got Macpherson, and my
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  Speaker 1: mission is to raise awareness of trauma and to inspire
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  Speaker 1: each of us to help those around us. All right, So,
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  Speaker 1: welcome back to the Trauma Therapist podcast. My name is
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  Speaker 1: Got Macpherson. And again, if this is your first time
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  Speaker 1: joining us, this is a podcast where we're really reaching
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  Speaker 1: out and talking to individuals who have been in the
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  Speaker 1: field of trauma for years, who've made, you know, significant contributions,
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  Speaker 1: who are masters and really passionate about helping other individuals. Today,
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  Speaker 1: I am very excited to introduce my guest, Seeburn Fisher. Seburn,
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  Speaker 1: are you ready to go?
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  Speaker 2: I am ready to go, all right.
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  Speaker 1: Seburn Fisher has integrated neurofeedback and psychotherapist and her treatment
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  Speaker 1: of developmental trauma and adults and adolescents for the past
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  Speaker 1: seventeen years. Prior to adopting ner feedback, Seburn was the
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  Speaker 1: clinical director of her residential treatment program for severely disturbed
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  Speaker 1: adolescents for fifteen years.
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  Speaker 3: While there, she.
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  Speaker 1: Introduced the understanding of the impact of attachment rupture and
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  Speaker 1: was the first to implement DBT in a residential setting.
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  Speaker 1: In April, she published her book Nerfeedback and the Treatment
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  Speaker 1: of Developmental Trauma commonly Fear Driven Brain.
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  Speaker 3: With Norton. She consults in trains on the integration.
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  Speaker 1: Of nerve feedback and therapy, both nationally and internationally. All right,
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  Speaker 1: so we're just obviously a little bit about you. Take
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  Speaker 1: a moment before we get go in here and share
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  Speaker 1: with our listeners, just so you know a little something
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  Speaker 1: personal about yourself, perhaps where you're calling from, and then
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  Speaker 1: we'll dive in.
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  Speaker 2: Well.
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  Speaker 4: I got into the field of trauma, probably primarily, although
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  Speaker 4: without much away awareness of this at the time, because
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  Speaker 4: of my own significant trauma history.
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  Speaker 2: I had avoided becoming.
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  Speaker 4: A psychotherapist because when I was a kid, a twenty
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  Speaker 4: year old in a hospital, every single person, every single patient,
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  Speaker 4: was going to become a psychotherapist. I took a different route,
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  Speaker 4: ended up working in implementation of family planning and realized
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  Speaker 4: as I was working with people in the family plan
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  Speaker 4: you know who would come in for either crisis counseling
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  Speaker 4: or regular contraceptive counseling, that many of them were coming
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  Speaker 4: at a time of crisis, and that there was very
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  Speaker 4: little that I was trained to do to help them.
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  Speaker 4: So I went and got a master's degree and then
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  Speaker 4: shift my shifted my focus into working with with people
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  Speaker 4: with significant histories.
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  Speaker 2: Of developmental trauma.
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  Speaker 4: This term now being used, I think increasingly widely to
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  Speaker 4: describe people affected from the time they are very young,
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  Speaker 4: by very challenging and threatening circumstances in their own homes.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, that's how I got into it, Okay.
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  Speaker 1: And we're going to get into that a little bit later.
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  Speaker 1: So and you're you're calling from Massachusetts.
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  Speaker 4: I am, I'm calling from western Massachusetts. My practice is
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  Speaker 4: in Northampton.
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  Speaker 1: Nice, Okay, So let's transition Seaburn. You know, we start
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  Speaker 1: off with a quote here, a mantra. This podcast is
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  Speaker 1: about really getting to know you, what's inspired you and
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  Speaker 1: driven you. In order to do that, share with us
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  Speaker 1: either quote or a mancho or something that's kind of
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  Speaker 1: inspired you in this journey.
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  Speaker 4: I've thought about this and I probably there have been
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  Speaker 4: different mantras over the course of my life, but the
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  Speaker 4: central one is actually a quote from my first I'm
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  Speaker 4: a Buddhist meditator and from my first Buddhist teacher, I
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  Speaker 4: tick not Han. It was the very first thing that
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  Speaker 4: I heard him say in person. He got up on
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  Speaker 4: a stage and this is in plumb Village at his
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  Speaker 4: retreat center in France, and it was a retreat for
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  Speaker 4: therapists and for traumatized vets from Vietnam. And he said,
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  Speaker 4: we fall back into the past, we jump ahead into
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  Speaker 4: the future, and in this we lose our entire lives.
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  Speaker 4: And I think that that quote stays with me. It
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  Speaker 4: is true, and it is it's true, I think for
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  Speaker 4: most of us, but I think it is particularly.
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  Speaker 2: True for people with histories of trauma.
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  Speaker 1: So first of all, I love to tick that Han,
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  Speaker 1: and we're going to link him up in the show
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  Speaker 1: notes page.
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  Speaker 3: And secondly, this is an amazing quote, and it.
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  Speaker 1: Sounds like a phenomenal workshop you went to there from village. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that sounds amazing, it sounds perfect. But so we fall
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  Speaker 1: back into the past, we jump ahead into the future,
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  Speaker 1: and in this we lose our entire lives. So Seaburn
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  Speaker 1: dropped down a little. When did this become resonant for you?
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  Speaker 4: Well, I think it became resonant immediately. I was struck
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  Speaker 4: by that. And I think the whole audi ents of
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  Speaker 4: of vets and you know, probably a fair represent representation
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  Speaker 4: of trauma survivors, even among those who were not vets,
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  Speaker 4: and you know, people who maybe had not had either
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  Speaker 4: of those experiences, felt that very deeply. And my one
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  Speaker 4: of the ways that I conceptualize my work or my
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  Speaker 4: duty really is to help people gain the present. Uh,
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  Speaker 4: trauma survivors almost to a person, live in the past.
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  Speaker 4: They are caught in the past. The they are driven
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  Speaker 4: by fear circuits in their brains, and those fear circuits,
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  Speaker 4: the Amigdala being central to that keep them has no
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  Speaker 4: then Miguel has no time stamp on it. So whatever
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  Speaker 4: was ever dangerous to you will continue to be dangerous
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  Speaker 4: to you until you can work that through. And that's
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  Speaker 4: the trap that traumatized people are in. So this is
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  Speaker 4: a This guides my work today and it guides my practice,
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  Speaker 4: my own personal practice as well.
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  Speaker 3: I love that.
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  Speaker 1: So my duty is to help people gain the present.
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  Speaker 1: And of course, as you said, many, you know, traumatized
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  Speaker 1: individuals kind of live in the past. And I'm really
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  Speaker 1: excited to as we move on here in this interview,
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  Speaker 1: I'll hear you share about how you work with individuals
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  Speaker 1: to you know, gain the present in a sense.
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  Speaker 3: Moving on, you know we at the at the onset.
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  Speaker 1: Here you're talking a little bit about how you got
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  Speaker 1: into the specialization of trauma. Let's kind of focus in
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  Speaker 1: and put a magnifying less on that topic right now.
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  Speaker 1: You know, this podcast again is about highlighting your journey.
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  Speaker 1: People get into this field for a number of reasons.
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  Speaker 1: You know, you and I were talking before we started
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  Speaker 1: recording about my experience with my brother coming back from
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  Speaker 1: Iraq and UH with PTSD, and I just wanted to
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  Speaker 1: find and I was just so excited about talking to him,
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  Speaker 1: getting to hear about his experiences in the seals and
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  Speaker 1: just pestering him. You know, I keep using that word
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  Speaker 1: because that's what it is, and as I talk about it,
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  Speaker 1: I'm ashamed to say that, but that's what I did.
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  Speaker 1: And you know, part of doing this podcast is hopefully
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  Speaker 1: coming back and uh correcting that, but bring break it
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  Speaker 1: down for us.
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  Speaker 3: Sea Burn.
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  Speaker 1: You know what what led you into into this field
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  Speaker 1: of trauma?
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  Speaker 4: Well, perhaps in a similar bit more direct way, it
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  Speaker 4: was personal.
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  Speaker 2: I spent.
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  Speaker 4: I have a history of developmental trauma. I spent some time,
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  Speaker 4: some considerable time as a young adult in different mental institutions,
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  Speaker 4: and I spent a lot of time in psychotherapy, and
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  Speaker 4: the whole time, really I benefited for the most part,
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  Speaker 4: not entirely, but for the most part from the therapeutic
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  Speaker 4: relationships that I had, and and from the skills that
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  Speaker 4: I learned in terms of affect regulation. But I was
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  Speaker 4: always at some level limbically driven, and that was true,
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  Speaker 4: and that is true. I think almost by definition for
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  Speaker 4: people who have suffered from developmental trauma, and clearly from PTSD,
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  Speaker 4: that's what's going on. It becomes a fear driven brain.
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  Speaker 4: And it was only so. I've been doing this for
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  Speaker 4: thirty five years, and it was only, as you said,
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  Speaker 4: about seventeen years ago that I started to focus on
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  Speaker 4: the brain at all. I had been trained, as most
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  Speaker 4: psychotherapists are, to focus on issues of.
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  Speaker 2: The mind and how the mind is formed.
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  Speaker 4: By its history, which is true, and its environment and
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  Speaker 4: impacts of trauma, the impacts of everyday life, and had
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  Speaker 4: no training in my graduate education. And I say this
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  Speaker 4: is still mostly true on how the functioning of the
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  Speaker 4: brain contribute to the dilemma, much less any real approach
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  Speaker 4: to how treating or working with the brain could help,
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  Speaker 4: because the only approach to working with the brain of
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  Speaker 4: trauma survivors and of anybody who's significantly mentally ill so
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  Speaker 4: far has been working with psychopharmacology, and in the last
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  Speaker 4: thirty years, with the major advances or the use of
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  Speaker 4: psychopharm there, the statistics do not show that this has
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  Speaker 4: actually been a helpful approach to the treatment of mental illness.
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  Speaker 2: So we were really looking for a new way.
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  Speaker 4: Although I have a story, I mean, my story about
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  Speaker 4: how I got into this field is hardly one of
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  Speaker 4: seeing the light immediately.
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  Speaker 2: I had to do this training myself.
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  Speaker 4: What would we're calling, which is called nor feedback, to
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  Speaker 4: have any idea of its usefulness, particularly it's usefulness for
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  Speaker 4: people with trauma.
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  Speaker 3: Well, we want to hear that story.
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  Speaker 2: You want me, you want to talk about it right now?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah?
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  Speaker 2: Okay.
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  Speaker 4: So I had a colleague, a woman named Kathy Zilberman,
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  Speaker 4: who and I was having dinner with her. I was
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  Speaker 4: then the clinical director of a treatment center as you mentioned,
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  Speaker 4: for severely disturbed adolescents, most of whom would age out
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  Speaker 4: of the program not a whole lot better. Once they
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  Speaker 4: got out, they would do better in the containment of
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  Speaker 4: the of the residential program and with therapy, but once
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  Speaker 4: they got out, they were most of them would fall apart.
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  Speaker 4: Very few went on to live constructive and healthy and
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  Speaker 4: good lives. And I think for exactly the reasons that
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  Speaker 4: we're going to discuss in our conversation. Anyway, So I
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  Speaker 4: had a dinner with Kathy and she started telling me
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  Speaker 4: about this thing that she was looking into called neural feedback,
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  Speaker 4: and told me that I could teach these kids, that
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  Speaker 4: these kids could learn behavioral control by playing a video
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  Speaker 4: game with their brains, and I just looked at her.
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  Speaker 4: I had absolutely no understanding of how this could be possible.
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  Speaker 4: I didn't know much about the brain. But it also
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  Speaker 4: this was a time way before there was any conversation
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  Speaker 4: about circuits running the show in the brain, which is
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  Speaker 4: now more and more what people are discussing, but there
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  Speaker 4: was no discussion of that then, and we are with
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  Speaker 4: our feedback appealing to the circuits in the brain the
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  Speaker 4: way the brain fires. So I was agreed to become
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  Speaker 4: her first subject, and we did a couple of sessions
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  Speaker 4: and I got headaches. I was a migrainer, among many
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  Speaker 4: things that have resolved with nural feedback. I was a
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  Speaker 4: migrainer and I got a migraine, but nothing, nothing much
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  Speaker 4: seemed to happen, so she was frustrated. She said, well,
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  Speaker 4: let's just we decided we just do this for a weekend.
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  Speaker 4: I usually cautioned people here that this is not a recommendation,
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  Speaker 4: but this is how I.
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  Speaker 2: Got into the field.
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  Speaker 4: So I did about over at her house about maybe
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  Speaker 4: seven or eight hours of narrow feedback training at a
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  Speaker 4: particular frequency for you know, over the weekend.
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  Speaker 2: And I.
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  Speaker 4: After I had left, I did have a migraine the
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  Speaker 4: first day, a really bad migraine. And still something said
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  Speaker 4: to me go back and get more.
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  Speaker 2: So I did. The migraine was pretty bad.
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  Speaker 4: I went I there was a movie that I was
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  Speaker 4: going to miss if I didn't see it.
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  Speaker 2: It was a certain level of violence in it.
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  Speaker 4: I walked out of the movie almost to the point
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  Speaker 4: of being sick from the violence, which is stuff that
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  Speaker 4: is sort of day ragur in movies, not that exceptional.
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  Speaker 4: Walked home noticed what is often called the clean windshield effect,
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  Speaker 4: where I just every.
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  Speaker 2: All the light was beautiful.
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  Speaker 4: It was just turning dark that that beautiful blue lights
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  Speaker 4: coming on in people's windows. It was an exquisite experience.
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  Speaker 4: I could feel the air on my skin in a
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  Speaker 4: new way. I was vibrant and uh and perhaps even vibrating.
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  Speaker 2: So I U. She called me. Uh. Kathy called me
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  Speaker 2: on Monday. That was on a Sunday.
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  Speaker 4: She called me on Monday night, and I was hypomanic
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  Speaker 4: and I was I had a bad migraine and my
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  Speaker 4: speech was quite pressured. And she was really nervous, which
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  Speaker 4: was understandable since I was her very first patient. And
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  Speaker 4: I said to her, as I mentioned a Buddhist meditator.
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  Speaker 4: So she and I said, uh, Kathy, I am one
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  Speaker 4: with everything. And she, of course, that just made her
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  Speaker 4: even more nervous because I was saying this with a
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  Speaker 4: with pressured speech in a hypomanic way. And I said, no,
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  Speaker 4: I understand why you're nervous. I can hear my own voice.
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  Speaker 4: I know why you're worried. This is going to be
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  Speaker 4: over on Wednesday morning. I had no idea how I
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  Speaker 4: knew that. On Wednesday morning, the whole thing lifted. Now
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  Speaker 4: there is an experiential explanation for that, but I wouldn't
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  Speaker 4: have known it.
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  Speaker 3: I was.
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  Speaker 2: I went into this not believing in it. At all.
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  Speaker 4: And now as I got clearer on my experience in
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  Speaker 4: Western non dharma terms, I realized that what had happened
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  Speaker 4: is that I had the background level of ambient fear
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  Speaker 4: that I lived in all the time twenty four to
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  Speaker 4: seven was greatly reduced.
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  Speaker 2: And so.
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  Speaker 4: It you know, it was very clear to me that
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  Speaker 4: this is something that I had to do, and in
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  Speaker 4: that I had to learn more about this, and so
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  Speaker 4: I went and I got training, and the only place
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  Speaker 4: it was available at that point was in California.
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  Speaker 2: And I went and studied with two.
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  Speaker 4: Very bright neuro feedback people and then began to incorporate
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  Speaker 4: it into my practice, slowly but with very great benefit,
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  Speaker 4: particularly for people where fear, shame, and rage are primary.
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  Speaker 1: Wow, so thank you so much for sharing that story.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, that is an incredible story. You're sitting down
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  Speaker 1: there having dinner with your friend Kathy, she talks about neurofeedback,
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  Speaker 1: and you know, you're like, what are you talking about? You,
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  Speaker 1: in fact, go through that training yourself. What specifically did
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  Speaker 1: she have.
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  Speaker 3: You do.
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  Speaker 2: Well?
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  Speaker 4: Neurofeedback It's a little hard to describe on the radio
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  Speaker 4: are in a blog.
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  Speaker 1: But.
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  Speaker 4: It is a it's a process where there are sensors
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  Speaker 4: placed on your scalp that pick up your EEG, and
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  Speaker 4: you place them. You place the sensors depending on assessment.
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  Speaker 4: So the right hemisphere is where effect regulation takes place.
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  Speaker 4: And so for me, we were looking at right hemisphere
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  Speaker 4: training just lowering arousal in general. If you were somebody
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  Speaker 4: who had whose arousals too low.
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  Speaker 2: And I have a story to tell you about that too,
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  Speaker 2: then you would.
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  Speaker 4: These are general assumptions you know are always going to
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  Speaker 4: be true, but you would place the sensor on the
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  Speaker 4: left and then you you're looking at a you're picking
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  Speaker 4: up the person's reel time EEG. So they're brain wave
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  Speaker 4: signature of their brain at that place, at that moment
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  Speaker 4: in time, and you're deciding on what frequency would help
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  Speaker 4: make this person in my case calmer. And so we know,
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  Speaker 4: for instance, that alpha is considered a relaxing frequency. So
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  Speaker 4: what you can dial in. You can dial alpha into
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  Speaker 4: your computer. And every single time I make alpha in
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  Speaker 4: this case, I was I could be rewarded to make it.
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  Speaker 4: The problem for me was that I was the only
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  Speaker 4: frequency that was available then that was considered calming. Because
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: of research done in epilepsy was twelve to fifteen herts,
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: which is called SMR. So she dialed all she had
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  Speaker 4: was available to her at that moment in time was
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  Speaker 4: twelve to fifteen herts rained at twelve to fifteen herts,
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  Speaker 4: and it was too high.
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  Speaker 2: And that's why I was manic and.
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  Speaker 4: With pressured speech, and probably contributed significantly in the migrain
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  Speaker 4: as well. So now you can dial in any frequency
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  Speaker 4: with the system that I use.
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  Speaker 2: You can even change it by an eighth.
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  Speaker 4: Of a hurtz, and so you can pinpoint what frequency
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  Speaker 4: is the most calming to this individual, and what placement
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  Speaker 4: is best for this individual. Neither the placement nor the
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  Speaker 4: frequency was absolutely right for me, But nonetheless I had
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  Speaker 4: this extraordinary experience.
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  Speaker 2: And all it is is that the electrical signal.
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  Speaker 4: From my brain is amplified ten thousand times, goes into
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  Speaker 4: the computer. The computer reads it and then sends that
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  Speaker 4: that to a video game. And I'm playing a video
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  Speaker 4: game just with by changing brain waves. Every single time
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  Speaker 4: I happen upon this case twelve to fifteen hurts, I
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  Speaker 4: get a reward, and the brain naturally goes after what
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  Speaker 4: it's rewarded to do. And even it's not conscious, it's
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  Speaker 4: you know, but you every time you do it, and
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  Speaker 4: you and you, you're also having to exercise some control
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  Speaker 4: over things that you shouldn't be making, like slow wave
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  Speaker 4: or excess fast wave. And when you do all of
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  Speaker 4: those at once, you get you get a reward and
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  Speaker 4: your brain just goes for that. So that's that's, that's
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  Speaker 4: what she did with me, and that's, uh, that's what
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  Speaker 4: I do with my my patients as well.
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  Speaker 1: And you said you had a story about the too
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  Speaker 1: low arousal.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that's not usually who I worked with,
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  Speaker 4: but one of the early one of my very early experiences.
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  Speaker 4: So i'd just been to training and it was recommended
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  Speaker 4: that you don't train your patients right away, and I
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  Speaker 4: strongly endorsed this recommendation, but you train families, family and friends.
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  Speaker 4: But it was set up in my waiting room and
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  Speaker 4: I had a patient who had a history of monopolar,
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  Speaker 4: severe monopolar depressions, and her sister had died of had
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  Speaker 4: died as a result of suicide with bipolar, so she
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  Speaker 4: was at some considerable risk. She came in, she was
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: crying and she said, I have dropped into this depression
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: so fast that it's terrifying to me. And I hadn't
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: seen it before. We had talked about it, we had
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: talked about ways of managing it should it reoccur, but
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: I hadn't seen it. And the system was sitting there,
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: and she said, I'm not going to take medications. I
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: can't teach when I'm like this. I can't, I can't,
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: I can't do anything but be in bed. Please please
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: try this neuroal feedback. So I agreed to it, and
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: I did what I have been told, which is with
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: low arousal, when you want to raise arousal, you put
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: the sensor on the left hemisphere and train at fifteen
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: to eighteen herts. That was the other available frequency in
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: the early days of neural feedback. So I trained her
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: for thirty minutes at fifteen to eighteen and I just
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: watched her in just change over the course of the session.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: Now, this is something that she had lived.
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: With for her entire adult life, since adolescents actually, and
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: in one session we saw it remediate. I trained her
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: for twenty three sessions altogether, and twelve years after and
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: then she stopped and I had reason to give her
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: a follow up call.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: Twelve years later.
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: I was taking a trip and she knew the area
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: was going to and she said, well, you can tell
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: your audiences that I have had no reoccurrence of depression
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: since narrow Feedback. She said, I have had moments. I've
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: had mornings when I wake up a little blue, but
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: it's nothing that a cup of coffee or meditation doesn't
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: take care of. So that was a very encouraging start
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: for me, you know, in terms of what narrow Feedback
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: could do.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: All right. I don't know if you follow me on
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Instagram or not, but when I do interviews, I usually
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: do two interviews a week. I conduct two interviews a week,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: and usually I get so excited. I get so pumped
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: up after these interviews because I get to talk to
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: incredible people. And what I usually do is they go
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: on Instagram and I talk about it. I want to
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: share that excitement. Usually there's about a two month turnaround
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: on my podcast, which means that they don't go live
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: for a couple of months, and I have a problem
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: with that because I want to share it. I get
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: so excited about these things. So what I've done is
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: I've created a membership called Trauma Therapist Plus and allows
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: people for five dollars a month to access these episodes
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: about two months before they get published to the public,
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: and you can also listen ad free, which is really cool.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: So if you're interested in that, you're interested in listening
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: to episodes before they get released to the general public
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: and also listening ad free, check it out. I access
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: it by going to Apple Podcasts and just clicking on
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: any of the episodes that has a plus p l
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: us before it. It's exciting. I'm excited about it, and
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: you'll also help support the podcast. Thank you so much
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: for being a listener. I really appreciate it. Take care.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: I should say, my god, the stories are phenomenal and
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: it's just really yeah.
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: And now let me just say too, it's very important
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: that I say that that is the kind of thing
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: where you feel you're very lucky to have because if
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: I had had a patients that it is more typical
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: with depression, it doesn't go like that.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: It's slower, it's.
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: You have to look around more for frequencies.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: You have to you know, it's harder.
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: But it was just a very encouraging, uh, first case
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: for me, and she was she was truly my first case.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I just think it's really interesting to
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: hear you talk about your own experience, you know, and
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: how this impacted you and that uh then inspired you
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: to begin studying this and using this with your clients.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, that just is really inspiring, Sebern, and I
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: want to thank you for sharing that. So, you know,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: we talked a little bit about your journey, Seber and
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: what got you into this field.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: Now share, share with.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: The listeners here, you know, an early clinical error you
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: made and what you learned from that. Obviously, uh, you know,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: people use this word differently error mistakes.
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: Some people don't like to look at it that way.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: But share with our listeners something you know that you
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: experience and the lessons you've learned.
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: Well, you know it's it's it's everything.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: That I did early on.
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: And I have no problem embracing mistakes.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: You know. I have this bifurcated career.
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: I have the before neural feedback and the after neural feedback.
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: And I would say that the biggest mistake that I
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: made was working with people businesses before I learned about
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: neural feedback. Was working with people with dissociative beginning disorder
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: or multiple personality disorder and pushing maybe something like you
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: were doing with your brother pushing for them to reveal uh,
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: their trauma, which just is overwhelming to people who have
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: somehow survived the level of horror that these people have survived,
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: and so, you know, but it was it was seen
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: as what was necessary in trauma was for people to
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: say it. Now there's even without our feedback, there's a
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: lot of focus on stabilizing before you begin to talk
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: about trauma, and these uh, these patients are.
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: Really across the board. It's very difficult to stabilize.
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: And I think, you know, it's because of the very
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: things we're talking about. They are absolutely overridden by fear
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: and to such a great extent and so early in
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: their lives that they have fragmented. So I think that
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: if I were, if you know, to to young therapists
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: who find themselves working with these severe disorders, stabilizing first
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: is the most important thing to do.
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: So you talked about this bifurcated career.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: How long had you been working in the field before
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: you began utilizing neuro feedback.
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: About equal amount of tile. So I had been doing psychotherapy.
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: I began.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: As a.
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: You know, I was the clinical director of the residential
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: treatment center in that I often took the most challenging cases,
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: and that was right after I finished graduate school seventy nine.
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: I think I started there in seventy nine and worked
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: there for fifteen years and then had a seventeen years
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: I think, and then a private practice after that. And
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: I would have brought neuro feedback into that because I
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: was learning about it at the end of my tenure there.
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: Had that been acceptable, but it was too new and
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: it was too controversial, I think.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: Interestingly, the residential treatment centers in my area they're they're
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: too for kids. Both of both of them use neuro feedback,
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: so you know, it's it's it's just an irony.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: Really.
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: So you know, now we get to one of my
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: favorite questions Seaburn, which is you know why you know
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: we get We talked about some of the challenges of
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: the specialization.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: What got you here?
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: For me? I just really find it interesting exploring why
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: we do what we do. I mean that answer in
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: the sense drives us along, uh, you know, in our work,
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: in our passion. This is a little different than what's
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: got you here in the first place, But share with us,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: you know why you keep doing this day to day?
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: Well, you know it's not clear to me a guy,
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: why uh not not? Why I do it? Why I
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: do it is clear, and I think we've talked some
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: about it. But if I'd still be doing it if
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: it weren't for being able to help people regulate this
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: wild affective realm with with neurow feedback, because it's it's
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: it's terribly terribly wearing on the patient, but it's also
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: very wearing on the therapist, and so I'm not at
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: all sure that I'd continue to be in this or
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: look forward actually to my work, which I do greatly,
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: if I didn't have that modality on board.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: So it's it's because you're able to help people regulate
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: their affect in a sense able to yeah yeah.
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: Which which is very difficult to do with talk therapy.
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: And there's reasons for that in the architecture of the brain,
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: but it's very difficult to do that with talk therapy
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: and cite oriented therapy probably the least useful, and ultimately
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: it's even in standard therapies. It's not the talk so
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: much as it is the state of the therapist. And
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: when you work with severely just regulated people, it can
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: be very difficult to stay regulated.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: In that encounter.
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: So not only do I think that narrow feedback is
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: very helpful for the trauma patient, I think it's very
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: helpful for the trauma therapist.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: So I love what you said there. It's not so
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: much the talk, but the state of the therapist. See
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: a little more more about that and the importance of that.
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: Well, we're thinking, we're thinking about this as a regulating
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: other that the therapist has to be able to stay
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: in her own skin, in a in a state of
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: relative calm, although calm it's not always called for, but
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: at least if it's not calm, that it's thought out
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: what you're, what you're, how you're going to be with
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: your patient. It is really an overall abiding relationship because
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: it is the only thing that quiets the the nerve.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: The state of the of the patient is if you.
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: Are yourself relatively well put together and and with them.
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: And it's not so much how clever you are, how
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: much you understand of the patient's dilemma, though of course
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: that's very important, but mostly I think it has to
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: do with you know.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: How contained and containing you can be.
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: Of a wild effective experience on the part of the patient,
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: and if you can't, if their affect wins the day,
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: then the therapy fails because first and foremost that's what
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: all therapies need to achieve, is effect regulation.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: And I just think it's so interesting that you're bringing
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: this up, because it comes up again and again as
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: I talk to you know, the other individuals I've talked to,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: and it's this the state of the therapist. And maybe
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: it's not surprising, but in this day and age, where
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: you know, we as therapists have a plethora of workshops
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: and interventions and modalities to choose from, it almost becomes
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: the case of the bright shiny object. You know, well,
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: let me do this, and let me do that, and
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: let me do that. And what it keeps coming back
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: to again and again seaburn from these interviews again not
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: surprisingly but just so poignantly, is that h so much
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: of this depends upon us as clinicians. And as you're
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: saying here, the state of the therapist, and why why
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: is that difficult? Why is it difficult for us as clinicians,
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: as therapists to to have that abiding presence or relationship
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: that you're talking about.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: Well, it's very challenged by threats.
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: That's that that uh, just regulated patients to make on
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: themselves are.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: To you to the therapy.
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: It's uh, if if they're screaming, if there's a good
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: deal of of of crying. And although one of my
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: colleagues said that when I asked him if he had
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: seen the movie The Crying Game.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: He said, I I have.
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: That's what I do. That's what I do, So you know,
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: it's it. But it's difficult. It's difficult for us as
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: human beings to sit with really really intense effect emotion.
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: And it's no different being a therapist that that's difficult
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: to sit with desperation, severe depression, hopelessness, and it's hour
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: after hour that you're sitting with that in with one
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: person or another. That's what's different in the way that
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: I do my work now because I really target that.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Because I can, I don't just sit with it.
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: That becomes the focus of our work with brain regulation.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: You know. I see we're many of the listeners here
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: are experienced. Uh. Some have been doing this work for
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: many years. Some are just getting into the field of trauma.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: Some some therapists have been working and really don't realize
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: that they've been working with individuals who have been traumatized.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: But you know you've been obviously doing this for a while.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: What advice would you have for individuals who are just
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: beginning their education into trauma informed treatment.
• 39:29
  Speaker 4: Well, it's not going to surprise you given the tenor
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: of what we've talked about so far. But I think
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: that in most graduate programs there is much too little
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: training education about the brain, and that for the we
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: had I think at the end of the last century
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: what was.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: Called the Decade of the Brain.
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: Well, I think we're in the century of the brain,
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: and that there's been this connect between the brain and
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: the mind that it produces. I mean, the brain is
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: the infrastructure of mind, and we keep trying to deal
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: with it's the way that it gets manifest in emotion
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: and in thought disorders or distortions. So for new therapists
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: coming on and for therapists who really realize they're up
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: against something in treating trauma, I would recommend that they
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: begin to understand that the brain is plastic, that we
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: have access to that plasticity, and that we have that
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: through biofeedback, which is but neurofeedback, which is as I
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: described it before, it's a computer based interface which gives
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: information on the frequency at which your brain fires, and
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: you can shift the way that you feel, you can
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: shift the way that you think, and you can shift
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: the way that you behave.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: And the vast.
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: Majority of people who are wildly disregulated or even somewhat
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: just regulated, don't want to live in that regulation. So
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: it's not hard to get an alliance around this. So
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: for young therapists going into this and that they won't
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: have to overcome the technophobia that I had to overcome
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: is they're all they all know the computer.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: To learn a computer.
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: Brain interface called neurofeedback, it will be a great benefit
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: to them and to their patients.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: Okay, so get educated about the brain, understand the brain's
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: elastic and that we can access and optimize that via
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: neurofeedback and biofeedback. Let's shift the two book recommendations, and
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: before we do, I just want to say that that,
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: you know, for those listeners who aren't aware you were, uh,
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: Seaburn really kind of prominently featured in besil Vandercock's book
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: The Body Keeps a Score And uh, that was I
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: thought a really great highlight of of you know you
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: and the work you do.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: So congratulations for that.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: So share with us.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: Uh, two books that have inspired you, influenced you, and
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: they don't necessarily have to be trauma related books, and
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: then we're going to talk about your book.
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: Well, they happen to be trauma related books. Probably the
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: two most important books that I've read in my field
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: are Bessel's Uh. One is Bessel's book Traumatic Stress, and
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: the other was Alan Shor's book on affect Regulation and
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: the Origin of Self.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: So those two books.
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: There have been other books in the neuroscience film that
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: have been very influential or perhaps even more validating than influential,
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: but in terms of coming to understand the nature of
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: the attachment rupture and the effects that it has on
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: the brain, those.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: Were the two most important books for me.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, so besie Vandacock's book Tradic Stress and Alan Shor's
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: book will have links to those both on the show
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: notes page at West Coast Trauma Project dot com. Sebur
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: In your book that just recently came out, neuro Feedback
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: and the Treatment of Developmental Trauma, cammonly Fear Driven Brain,
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: share with us a bit about what your thoughts were,
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: you know, on putting this work together.
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: Well, it let me say that I had been encouraged
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: by my husband, among other people, to write a book,
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: but I didn't have an intention to do so until
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: I got a letter from Norton asking me if I
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: would would write a book on attachment disorder and near
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: our feedback. And I gather that they had been, you know,
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: reading my stuff on the internet.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: So it was.
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: It was the impetus of Norton that got me to
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: do this book. I made they what seemed that became
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: an audacious promise to do this book in two years,
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: which I in fact did.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: And again I have to credit brain.
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: Regulation for this, which I still frame my brain freely regularly.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: This is a big endeavor.
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: I was doing it along at the same time as
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: I was doing my clinical work. I also have to
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: thank my patients who were articulate about what the gains
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: had been for them. And I had been writing about
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: it and trying to understand it, particularly in the realm
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: of quieting fear. So uh, you know, I just uh,
• 45:10
  Speaker 4: I struggled. I think like all authors do with with
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: It's a very daunting process. I'm more than I ever
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: would have known before I did it. But it seems
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: to me to be an important book and it's important. Yeah,
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: I liked that phrase a bright shiny object. I don't
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: want in our feedback to become a bright shiny object.
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: I want it.
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: I wanted it to be understood as and as a
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: portal into the very nature of how we are as
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: human beings, which is that we are plastic.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: We can make these changes, and.
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: There is these relatively crude device or or system instrument
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: that allows you to do that, and any human being
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: can can do that with it, with the proper training.
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: And I always recommend that people do neual feedback, not
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: on themselves, which was my fate, but in a psychotherapy relationship,
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: because there's it is to me, a relational technology. It
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: isn't useful. I say, you know about Bobby Fisher. If
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: he were to come to me and say I want
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: to become a better chess player, and I've had people
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: come to me to say this, I would have said
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: to Bobby Fisher, well, or I would have thought about
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: Bobby Fisher that if I don't make him or allow
• 46:33
  Speaker 4: him to become a better human being, then I failed
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: him and in becoming a better functioning human being, more
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: relational human being.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: And that's really what I mean by.
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: That you will become a better chess player, you will
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: become a better skier, you will be you will you
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: pete performance is embedded in a relational self. So that's
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: what I think neural feedback allows us to, uh to ultimately,
• 47:01
  Speaker 4: uh gain is that capacity for deep interpersonal relationship that
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: is so abraided and.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: Upset in the process of trauma.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: So that's neurofeedback and the treatment of developmental trauma, calming
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: the feared even brain. Again, that'll be linked up in
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: the show notes. Seburn, what's the best way for individuals
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: to contact you.
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: Uh, probably through my email which is Seburn dot fisher
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: at Verizon dot net. Or they can visit my website
• 47:37
  Speaker 4: fear driven brain dot com.
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: So Ceburn dot fisher at Verizon dot net and the
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: website is feardifferent brain dot com. Sebert, I'm want to
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: thank you so much really for you know, sharing you know,
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: your personal story, things that have gone on with you,
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: and I just loved the way you took the time
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: to uh talk to us about how you got into
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: this whole field of neurofeedback and just you know, you're
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: passionate about helping people and uh, it's it's been awesome,
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: so thank you again for for taking the time to
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: do this.
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: Well, it's been my pleasure guy, I've I've enjoyed this conversation.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: Thanks a lot.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: You're welcome, Take care, Bye bye m m h