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Broken Promises: Veterans, Leadership, and the Quest for Accountability · Plausibly Live - The Dave Bowman Show Podcast

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Senator Ernst, what is it going to take for you to support my
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son? This is plausibly live, the
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official podcast of the Dave Bowman Show.
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In the spring of 1864, as The Battle of the Wilderness
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sputtered to its inevitable close, there was a great deal of
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concern in the ranks of the Union Army.
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It wasn't clear that they had won a victory.
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In fact, if you were just looking at the strategic
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tactical situation, you could probably argue that they had
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lost again. And as the army reformed and
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began to March back out to the roads, there was a sense of here
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we go again. But a strange thing happened as
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the army marched forward. Instead of turning N back to the
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Rapidan River, behind which they had essentially hidden so many
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times, they turned South, Bruce Catton writes in his book about.
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As the Army realized that they were turning South, as each unit
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turned South and started heading back towards Richmond.
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Not a way towards Washington, but as they, as they headed
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towards Richmond, all of a sudden there was a sense that
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this was going to be different from The bands began to play and
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the soldiers began to March much more snap too.
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I mean, they were, they were excited.
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All the work we had done over the past three or four days at
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the Wilderness was not just being chucked out the window and
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to go back and hide behind the Rapidan River again.
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This time we're going forward. What was the difference, What
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changed between the times that they had hidden behind the
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Rapidan River and the time now when they were going forward?
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Leadership. Ulysses S Grant was now in
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command. Of course, Ulysses S Grant was
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known for his faults. He drinks too much.
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Find out what he drinks, Lincoln said.
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Send some to all my generals. He was not morally upright.
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Nobody cared. What they cared about was we're
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going forward, not backwards. Over the past few weeks, I've
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been reading books. I'm, I'm, I'm really trying to
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read more. It's a story for another day,
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but I feel like, I feel like electronics have just taken over
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my life. And so I'm trying to do more
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reading and what I'm trying to read are more books that I found
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entertaining when I was a younger man starting high school
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and end of the Navy and before computers kind of took over my
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life. And so I started with a a Dirk
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pit book. Many of you will know I'm a huge
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fan of Clive Cussler. It was those Dirk Pit books were
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a big part of my my growing up. And as I read this book, which
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was one of my favorites, always has been.
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It felt different this time. And I was struggling with it
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because instead of being absorbed into the story, I found
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myself being more, I don't want to say critical of the story,
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but certainly questioning of the story.
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And I found myself. I actually wrote a note on one
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of the pages. Did we really think this way
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back then? Was that really what we
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believed? This past week I picked up the
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book Red Storm Rising. There was a reason for it.
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We were we're having a discussion about it in another
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area of my life and Red Storm Rising was one of those books
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that it was groundbreaking. And I will say this about Tom
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Clancy. Tom Clancy, a brilliant writer
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can take a expletive discussion. The characters are having a
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conversation that is incredibly boring, incredibly detailed, and
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he can make it engaging and page after page after page of this
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exposition that that you need to know because you need to
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understand the context of the story.
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But but really, it could be summarized in a paragraph.
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Hey, a bunch of terrorists blew up a a oil refinery and we're
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going to lose half of our oil production capabilities on the
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audio version that goes on for 20 minutes.
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And I found myself wondering again, is this how we used to
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think? Is this the problem with the
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Cold War was we didn't know what the Russians thought.
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We thought that Tom Clancy was right and the dirt and the Clive
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Cussler was right and they were telling us how the Russians
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thought. We didn't actually know.
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And I, I found myself with a very strange feeling this past
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week about what if everything we did during the Cold War was
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pointless because the Russians didn't really think that way.
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The first Gulf War, of course, was the last months that I was
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in the Navy. And as I said, on many
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occasions, I did not go into theater.
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However, comma, please understand that there was a lot
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of things going on, some of which I can't even talk about to
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this day, that were directly related because of that.
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Remember that there was a widespread belief about two
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things, one, that Saddam Hussein was going to use chemical
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weapons and #2 that Saddam Hussein was going to send small
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boat parties to the shores of the United States to commit acts
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of terrorism and sabotage. Those two things we're not.
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I mean, again, we look at them today as quaint.
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We look at them today as that was never going to happen.
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But believe me, in January of 1991, nobody knew that and the
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belief was in the training was we're going to put a stop to
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that. The first Gulf War of course
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went the way it did, but it all left us wondering when
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everything was done. Is that it?
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Are we not going to finish the job?
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Are we going to like the Army? The Potomac did so many times,
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go back to the Rapidan River and just Burrow in and say, OK,
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don't make us come out again? Or are we going to push on and
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finish the job? And I've said on so many
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occasions, George Herbert Walker Bush is one of those people in
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history. And I don't really care.
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I don't give a rat's ass what you think of him.
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He's my president. He's he's somebody that I voted
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for twice and he's someone that when he looked me in the eye and
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said I care about my men, I believed him.
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I don't have that feeling with a lot of other presidents.
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Does that mean he did everything right?
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Hell no. Does it mean I would have done
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it that way? No.
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And more importantly, it asked the question of accountability.
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Somebody made this decision that this was as far as we were going
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to go and we're not going to go any further.
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We're going to turn around, go back to the Rapidan River and
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hide. Somebody made that decision.
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I don't know who made that decision, but somebody did.
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And there was never any accountability for that
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decision. And so all the sacrifice which
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granted wasn't, you know, I mean, it was, there wasn't on
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the order of Vietnam or World War 2, but there were sacrifices
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made in the first Gulf War. Were those sacrifices honored by
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essentially quitting? And sacrifice is meaningful.
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It's honored and it's honored by completing the mission.
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Much like the men of the Army of the Potomac when they realize
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that all this sacrifice wasn't for nothing.
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We're pushing on. We're going to complete the
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mission. All of a sudden it changed how
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they did things. When it's wasted, when sacrifice
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is wasted and not honored, it's a tragedy.
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And that's why this whole Pete Hegseth thing matters.
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Yesterday I came across a tweet from a War on Terror veteran.
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Now, I am not a War on Terror veteran.
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I'm a Cold War veteran, first Gulf War era veteran, and I see
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things from kind of an 80s perspective.
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But I also know enough of these kids, and I call them kids, that
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it's an interesting conversation because they wonder the same
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things. What did we accomplish?
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Which is exactly the same thing that the Korean War veteran is
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asking. It's the same thing that the
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Vietnam War veteran is asking. It's the same thing that the
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Marine in Lebanon is asking. And it's the same thing that the
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first Gulf War veteran is asking.
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And quite frankly, starting to wonder about it.
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As a Cold War veteran, was it worth it?
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Difference did it actually make? Were the sacrifices that were
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made honored by completing the task?
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Well, Dave, we won the Cold War. We beat the Russians.
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Did we? This veteran tweeted this, and I
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want to read it to you because I want you to hear why this Pete
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Hegseth nomination matters. I don't personally know Pete
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Hegseth. I've never met him.
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Quite frankly, he wasn't even really sure who he was because I
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don't watch Fox News. I don't watch television news
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anyway. But listen, quote.
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The Pete Hegseth nomination and it's attendant controversy are
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part of a broader social issue in the United States, and Pete's
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nomination is perhaps the most visible symbol of that issue,
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which is as follows. America was at war for more than
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20 years. There are about 3 million
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veterans of those wars scattered across all segments of our
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society. In many cases, they still have
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ties to the military, whether by virtue of current employment,
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participation in veterans organizations, or just having
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their voices heard. While I am hesitant to speak on
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behalf of all three million of these veterans, I don't think
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it's an exaggeration to say that a huge number of these veterans,
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like a majority at least, are disgusted with how their
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sacrifices were tossed away by politicians and generals like
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yesterday's trash. The fact that we were sent to
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fight wars that the nation never intended to win is a scar on
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many of our psyches. Not only were our sacrifices
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abused, but no one, no one has ever been held accountable for
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those failures. What general got relieved over
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Abby Gate? What general was relieved for
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assuring president after president that we could win the
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hearts and minds of 13th century feudal societies?
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What general got relieved for sending troops into IED alley
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with unarmored Humvees? It's this lack of accountability
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that boils the blood of veterans who left part of their soul in
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Ramadi or Mosul or Khost or Fallujah or Kandahar or Kabul or
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any of the other cities or open spaces where their friends died.
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Pete Hegseth stands for creating that accountability.
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His nomination. Listen carefully.
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His nomination is symbolic as much it is it as it is material.
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Allowing Pete to serve and make sure accountability is re
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established at the highest ranks of the Pentagon is the salve
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that War on Terror veterans need.
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And I would add the rest of us too.
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This is a spiritual issue for many of us.
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It goes beyond mere politics, goes beyond senators who we want
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to have honor, those who paid the price by confirming Pete
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Hegseth as Secretary of Defense. I thought as I read that it was
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one of the most powerful things I had ever read.
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And it struck deep into my own heart and soul because I feel so
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many of the same things. I know, having talked to Korean
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veterans, that so many of them wondered why.
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I mean, yeah, we stopped the Communists.
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We stopped the Chinese. And what today the nuclear
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threat from North Korea, Vietnam.
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I grew up in an era when everyone knew a Vietnam veteran,
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Everyone knew somebody who knew somebody that was killed in
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Vietnam. We saw not just the body bags
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coming back to Andrew, we saw for the first time in our
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history, Do you understand this? We saw that we couldn't even
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bury Americans where they fell, which had always been our
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tradition. We had to fly them home because
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there was nothing in that shit hole worth worth bearing an
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American life for. We watched that happen, and we
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watched the men who came back who were never again quite the
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same. And we thought to ourselves, you
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know, it's just shell shock. It's we didn't have that PTSD
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term yet. We didn't.
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There's just, you know, we watched as the American Legions
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and the DAVS and the other veterans organization turned
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their backs and wouldn't accept people because, well, you lost
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without ever understanding that they were facing the same
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issues. It's why they drink, folks.
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It's why they turn to drugs. And then we discover years later
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that our own government poison so many of them with Agent
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Orange. Where's the accountability?
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Who was ever held accountable for any of that?
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And even to this day, do you have any idea how hard it is to
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convince the VA, the Veterans Administration, that, hey, I'm
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fucked up because of what you made me do?
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There's no presumption. There's no oh, hey, you got hurt
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doing this, we should take care of you.
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No, the entire format of the VA is to disprove your claim.
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We watched those guys. We watched the the Marines from
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Lebanon. We the, the Cold War, my war
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that I'm, I was so proud of when I was 21.
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If you had asked me, Dave, your job is to push the button.
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You understand this, right? They talk about the button.
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They talk about that. Yes.
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The captain had to turn his key to give me permission to fire.
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Yes. The weapons officer pulled the
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actual trigger. When the green light went on, I
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pushed the fucking button. 22 years old.
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If you had asked me then I would have said yeah, I'll do it.
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Wouldn't even have thought twice about today.
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I read these books that go back to that.
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And I think to myself, did we really think that way?
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Is that really what we believed? Based on what?
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And there's no accountability for it at all.
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There's nobody going back and going, well, maybe we shouldn't
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have done it that way. The sacrifices that were made
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during the Cold War. Submarines that were sunk
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because they were sent on missions to monitor the Soviets.
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Yes, there was one. The men of the Scorpion, men who
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died in accidents all the way up to February of 1990, when the
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world knew. Maybe you didn't know because
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you weren't watching the news or whatever.
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The world knew. Stuff was about to go down, and
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we were training in February of 1990 for those small boat
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parties. We didn't call them Iraqis
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because, you know, you couldn't do that yet.
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But but we knew they were coming.
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We knew that that was going to happen.
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And so we were training to defend against that.
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And I buried one of my closest friends because of an accident
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that happened during the training.
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Who was accountable for those, for those sacrifice?
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I literally sat in the auditorium and watched.
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It's my own command explained to me that nobody was at fault.
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All the mistakes that were made, they're nobody's fault.
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Nobody. Nobody thought about it.
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Sorry. I've had people tell me the
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things that I watched with my own eyes never happened.
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Where's that accountability? And while this tweet was about
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the global War on Terror, I'm telling you those same emotions
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apply to the Korean vet. They apply to the Vietnam vet,
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they apply to the Cold War vet, the Lebanon vet, the first Gulf
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War. We have a leadership issue in
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this country. And that leadership issue is
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that they are playing not to lose.
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They're playing prevent defense. They're not playing to win.
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We're sending people to war with no intention of winning that
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war, and then we treat them like they're the problem when they
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come home. I'm sorry you got hurt, but if
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you can't prove that it was there, you know I don't care if
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you agree with me or not. I don't care what honors
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sacrifice is accomplishing the mission.
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The purpose for which we were sent out there, and that's
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literally almost all the solace I can take from the Cold War, is
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that I guess we accomplished the mission, we won the Cold War.
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I guess what doesn't honor sacrifice?
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Not completing the mission and we did not complete any of those
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missions. And as the next battle finally
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fades away, what's going to happen?
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Are we going to turn back and retreat behind the Rapidan River
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and hide, dig in and go, don't make us come out again?
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Or are we going to turn towards the front and push on and
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accomplish the goal? And I ask you this question,
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what Rhino Senators acceptable DoD nominee is going to do that?
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I'm telling you right now, Joni Urst doesn't believe a damn
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thing she says about Pete Hegseth.
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She does not believe any of it. If she did believe any of it,
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she wouldn't be doing what she's doing, which is 0.
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We'll continue to have conversations.
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She would stand or ground. This is all about power.
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It's all about who can keep her in power.
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That person will get her vote. And she believes that Pete
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Hegseth will bring accountability.
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And as a senator of the United States, she should be held
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accountable. They all should be.
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This is about power, nothing else.
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It's about, once again, throwing away accountability, throwing
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away sacrifice in the interest of politics.
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It's all it is. You don't think so?
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All right, which person is it that Joni Ernst supports quote
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UN quote air quote air quote that will go into the DoD and
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stand for accountability and stand for honor.
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Who is it? Which nominee is it you think
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that she supports it will do that.
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I'll hang up and I'll wait for your answer off air.