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6 Ways to Talk About 'Sin' (#6 Really Resonates With Gen Z) || SLP669 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so you miss the target.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the sin.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then you miss your life.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_04: There's a line.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_04: You cross the line, buddy.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_03: That really, really only scratches the surface of what this condition is that we're trying to describe.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: It is inherently relational.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_04: The Lord is Hosea.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_04: Like knocking on the brothel door, saying, I'll pay whatever it takes to have her back.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's the really important thing about all of this is this is not just how do I translate this Christian word of sin to all those people outside of the church who have no idea what sin is.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, no, no.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like this is how do we tread daily the path of repentance if we don't even know what we're repenting of.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, welcome to the Speak Life podcast.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_04: My name is Glenn Scriven, and I'm joined by Naomi Brahm.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_04: Hello.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_04: Hello.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_04: Hello.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_04: You are somebody I most think of when I think of evangelism to Gen Z, and I refuse to say Gen Z.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_04: But having been a student evangelist professionally for at least the last five years, but engaged in evangelizing people, especially on campus, you have a brilliant perspective on lots of different things.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_04: But we had a fantastic conversation like over a year ago about sin.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_04: And about you You're the first person I think of sin.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_04: We've got a sin expert, everybody.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_04: Naomi Brahm.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: When I think of sin, I think of Naomi.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: Sinput.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know that that would work as a portmanteau.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_04: But the sinput, sin expert.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_04: Naomi Brahm.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_04: We had a fantastic conversation about different motifs for sin, different paradigms for sin, different kind of characterizations of what actually sin is in the Bible.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_04: Because it's a kind of a it's a non-negotiable in terms of Jesus comes as a savior, and so he's got to be saving us from something.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_04: But we can get stuck in certain ways of talking about sin when the Bible actually has a very broad range of models for sin.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, such a rich picture, and we can have a much more rich, fluent vocabulary for talking about this thing called sin.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: And it can be quite a good exercise to think, okay, if I don't use the word sin, what word would I use instead?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_03: And then that is kind of kind of gets you thinking, what do I believe it actually is?
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_04: Don't use the word sin.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_04: What do you mean?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_04: Like why why ought we to talk about sin?
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_04: Even even if we don't use SIN, we might even talk about evil.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_04: Like like sometimes sometimes I've been like uh convicted that I like perhaps sin is like too abstract a concept.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_04: And maybe I'll just I'll just confess to my own evil and I need uh salvation for my own evil.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_04: But but but why would you say that?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean I think even then evil, I think both words uh we do ourselves, even if you're just talking about them within a kind of church context, we do ourselves a disservice because I might say a word and mean a thing, and then you hear the word and you think I mean something else.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: I think the same with the word gospel.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, well, if I if I say, Oh, I shared the gospel, it's like, well, I might mean one thing, you might mean something else.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um kind of music.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so thinking uh if you challenge yourself not to use the word sin, just because people will interpret that to mean various different things, it comes with different connotations, and um but to not use the word absolutely does not mean we're not talking about the concept.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, like that is necessary.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_03: If you're gonna offer someone a solution, you need to diagnose a problem.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_03: And um yeah, there's no point, like I wouldn't take pills that a doctor prescribed unless they told me I actually needed them.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's a diagnosis, yeah.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_04: So whatever we mean by sin, we mean the diagnosis of the human problem such that the whole atonement of Jesus is is completely necessary.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um one person that has made um sin kind of popular to talk about in in various spaces is uh Jordan Peterson, who there are very few people who I think are able to make me feel like I could have been a Nazi guard more than Jordan Peterson.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_04: Like he will talk about, you know, if you look at 1930s Germany and you look at growing up within the Hitler youth, if you lived in this town in Germany, the odds of you standing against the Nazi evil are virtually zero.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_04: And and kind of diagnosing the the there's a bentness, there's a twistedness, there's a shadow side to my humanity that that all of us have.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I I wanted to show one clip of Jordan Peterson defining sin in a way that he he often does, and then we might talk about what the strengths and the and the weaknesses are of this.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Their aim's wrong.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's like straighten out your aim.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: So there's an old idea, this idea of sin.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Sin is a word that was derived from a Greek word, hamartia, and hamaria is an archery term, and it means to miss the target.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so you think, well, how can you miss the target?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you have no weapon, well then you miss the target.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: You have no target, you have no aim, well then you miss the target.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: You don't pick up your bow, well, then you miss the target.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: You don't draw it back, then you miss the target.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: You don't practice and and miss many times, right?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because you you have to do that to develop the skill to hit the target, so you're not willing to take the risk to miss.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: You you do none of that, and so you miss the target, and that's the sin.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then you miss your life.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, then you miss your life.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so what's he what's he doing with this?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's it's is it true that well, yeah, it is.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: I I've I found there's this one page.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_03: Well, no, there's many pages in this book that are really helpful.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: This is Life in the Trinity by Donald Fairbank.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_03: It is one of the best books I've read this year.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: Oh man.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um And one of them, which is heavily annotated, is um is he's going through four different Hebrew words for sin.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_03: And so one of them, one of them does mean to miss a mark.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um what was this one?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_03: Something like oh yeah, chatta.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: To miss a mark.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: And and he also goes through and says there are different ways you can miss the mark, and we can see this in the Bible.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_03: There's ignorance for not knowing what the target is.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, that's the first one.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_03: Secondly, aiming at the wrong target.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, thirdly, aiming correctly at the right target but falling short.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: And so in a way, uh as I was listening to our friend Jordan there, I was thinking, okay, yeah, sounds a bit light on fair Ben.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_04: Now if this is the only way that we characterize sin, what what could be some of the dangers?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_04: Well, if I just try a bit harder, then I might get it.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_04: Every definition of sin kind of implicitly preaches a doctrine of salvation, doesn't it?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_04: Like if if the problem is I've I haven't quite hit the bullseye, what's the solution to that?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_04: Like aim better.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_04: Train harder.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_04: Train harder.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_04: Do more.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_04: Um get the bullseye next time.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then when you get it, woo, cheer, well done, you.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: You hit the mark.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_04: You Yes.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you are the solution.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_04: And so this is the other clip from Jordan Peterson that I wanted to show, because I think this is the flip side.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_04: This is a you know, the solution, if if sin is merely this archery term of missing the mark, then here's the solution.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: By the way, sin, there's two derivations of the word sin.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: One is chef, which is from the Hebrew, and the other is hamartia from the Greek.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: And they both are archery terms that mean to miss the target.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you go to a sports celebration, a sports ceremony, when you worship in a sports stadium, which is what you're doing, celebrating, you're celebrating the human ability to become highly skilled at precisely hitting the target.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: And that'll even grip you unconsciously.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you're following one team and somebody makes a particularly brilliant play, and that results in an increment in the score, everybody on the stadium will rise up, at least everybody who's cheering for that team, sometimes even the other people, will rise up like they're one entity and what, raise their hands in the air and cheer.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, what the hell's going on there?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's that everybody is participating in that act of skilled movement, skilled dramatic movement towards a goal.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_04: So if sin is that problem, then the solution is hit the mark and worship.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, they I I guess the helpful thing that he's maybe done there is made you realise there are scenarios where someone else has hit the mark and you won.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_03: So there is a bit of a there is a press into that.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_04: So In fact, the entire stadium is built so that 80,000 people can celebrate the achievement of the one person who's done the incredible thing.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_04: And usually the 80,000 people are cheering more than the one person.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_04: It's like they're even happier than the one person.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_04: Like earlier.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: So I suppose you do have there is a good analogy there.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean, it should be good, it's in the Bible.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, Adam lost the mark and he didn't he didn't get the target.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: And Christ comes and lives the better life on our behalf.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: Hit, hit, hit, hit, hit.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_03: We cheer.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: Great.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, yes.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, in some ways it is still it is still a good tool in our toolbox as we describe what it is we've done.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_03: And and as we think, you know, just that phrase uh I feel like something's missing, or like um, or like I'm missing something, or I feel like I'm never quite good enough, those sentiments tap into this definition of sin quite well.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_04: Completely.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_04: So that's that's one voice uh in the mix of the different voices that sort of come together with the harmony of sin, the symphony of that we're going this symphonic sense of what you are good with words, Glenn.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: Most of the time.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: No, no, no.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: That's good, that's good.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um But we're gonna go through.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I've got a list of twelve.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_04: Let's see how many we get through.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_04: Um but I I think something as as a as a motif, as a as a picture of what this missing the mark thing is, I think one might be transgression or trespass.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_04: This idea, there's a line, you cross the line, buddy.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I I think obviously it it comes out very early on in the Bible.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_04: There is the tree, don't eat from the tree, they ate from the tree.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so one way of characterizing Genesis 3 um is just just to see it as they crossed a line.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um and another part of the Bible that picks that up, I guess, is Romans chapter 5.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_04: It it talks, for instance, in verse 14 about um through the trespass, the trespass of the one man, the many were made to be transgressors.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um so it does it does talk about it as a trespass, as there's a line, you cross the line, buddy.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um and so there's one.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_03: And there's also, I mean, this morning I was reading about the design of the temple, you've got the cherubim, like the the angels that are guarding.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's like you've crossed a line and now you well, there's now another line you're not allowed to cross.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_04: There's like a yeah, yeah.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_04: There's an order to things.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_04: And only certain people at certain times can cross those lines as well, which is which is interesting about the yeah, the the ordering of the world.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_04: You can't just waltz into the holy place.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_04: You can't you certainly can't waltz into the most holy place.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um this is an ordered world, there's a grain to the universe, you're going against the grain, you're getting splinters.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_03: There are boundaries for your own flourishing don't run off the cliff.
• 11:35
  unknown: Yes.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_04: I think one of the dangers of pressing in and and trespass being the only thing is that it can sound quite arbitrary, you know.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_04: And and certainly with the the Garden of Eden issue, quite often in evangelism, people are just like, is God just waiting for them to fall?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_04: Has he got his arms crossed?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_04: It seems like it seems an arbitrary rule that God wants to um enforce.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um whereas actually I think there's something much deeper and richer going on in Genesis 3.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: And also there's a deeper thing as we try and define what what it means to s sin or what sin is, um, it's not just a reflection on what the solution is, but who God Himself is in his nature.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so if to cross a boundary, step over the line, you know, go too far, trespass is the nature of sin, it it is a reflection on God's character as him purely being a rule maker or a boundary drawer.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_03: And and in some ways, you know, a beautiful order.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: We see that in Genesis 1.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_03: He he orders things, yes, and he says, This will be there, the night will be here, and it will be no further, sea will be there, and it'll be no further.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_03: He limits the boundaries not just of humanity but of the chaotic waters and of the darkness, and that oh praise God that he does.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: So good.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um But yeah, perhaps one of the dangers of just thinking of sin like a trespass is well, is God just pleased if I do the right things and displeased if I do the wrong things?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like he's just a rules guy.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_04: An external thing rather than a heart issue and a thing.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_04: There's no emotion in that.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_04: And and so I think if we're just left at the level of trespass, um then we're we're not we're not sort of diving most deeply into the richness that the Bible kind of gives.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_04: And one person that really helps with that, I think, is like Augustine.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um in his confessions, like when he describes the the the transgression, you know, he steals some pears with a bunch of friends.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_04: And he confesses, I don't even like pears.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_04: Like, why why did I do that?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_04: I think he gets he gets to the heart of there's something deeper than transgression, or there's a reason for that trespass.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_04: Um so he he describes how he's he's off playing in the street with his friends, and then um late in the day he goes with his friends and they steal some pears and he he crosses over the fence and he gets the pears.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_04: He says, We carried off a huge load of pears, not to eat ourselves, but to dump out to the hogs after barely tasting some of them ourselves.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_04: Like he's like he doesn't like pears.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_04: He still stole them.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_04: Doing this pleased us all the more because it because it was forbidden.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_04: Such was my heart, O God, such was my heart which thou didst pity even in that bottomless pit.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_04: Behold, now let my heart confess to thee what it was seeking there, when I was being gratuitously wanton, having no inducement to evil, but the evil itself.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_04: Like there was no inducement to evil except the evil itself.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_04: Like he wanted to do it because it was wrong.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_04: And then he says, It was foul and I loved it.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_04: I loved my own undoing.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_04: I loved my error, not that for which I erred, but the error itself.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_04: A depraved soul falling away from security in thee to destruction in itself, seeking nothing from the shameful deed but shame itself.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_04: There's a reason why we're still reading Augustine 1600 years, isn't it?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like And that that's a helpful reminder, yes.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: The the way we define sin paints a picture of what God is like, and it really obviously paints a picture of what our condition is.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: Because if it's just we're doing the wrong things, I've missed the mark in my actions, I've said the wrong thing, I've crossed a boundary, you know, broken a rule, that really, really only scratches the surface of what this condition is that we're trying to describe.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: This is like the symptoms, this is like you're trying to treat symptoms, yeah, and you're not actually going to the heart of it.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_04: So let's think about another motif then.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um and if if we go one chapter on in Genesis, we get to Genesis chapter four.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_04: Um, if we move on from the Garden of Eden, well, in the next generation you've got Cain and Abel, and you know, Cain is downcast and angry because his brother Abel, his offerings are being accepted by the Lord, and Cain's own uh fruit offerings are not being offered.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_04: And then in verse 7 of Genesis 4, if you do what is right, will you not be accepted?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_04: But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door, it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_04: Isn't that like I just think that's fantastic?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um the Holy Spirit's a really good communicator.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um I've come to I've come to the opinion that the Holy Spirit is describing sin here like as this feral animal, as this crouching tiger, hidden dragon, like making itself look smaller than it is, and it wants to it wants to have its way with you, and it and it wants to do you harm, and it is a power that is too much for you.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_04: Um which is quite a different vision from trespassing.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's in it's sort of because it's the way it's describing it, it's as if in this paradigm it's external to you and a thing.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: Like you you, when it says you must rule over it, it's not like the words it's use that are used here does make it sound like you are distinguished from this thing that is sin.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's not just I have done some some things that are wrong.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's like there is this th thing that will have a power over me, and I can have a power over it.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: And it maybe isn't quite it's not like it it is me, but it's not fully part of me.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_04: But if I invite it in, you know, i if I invite it in, you know, bad will follow.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_04: And that's like James chapter one, like when tempted, no one should say, This is uh verse thirteen, when tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me, for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_04: But each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed, then after their desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and sin when it is full grown, gives birth to death.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, there seems to be this sort of dance sort of I mean it's it's it's sexual language, isn't it?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's it's kind of um you enter into a relationship with this stupid desire of yours, and it gives rise to this thing called sin, and sin grows up.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: And and yeah, again, sin is like a thing that seems little but grows.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah, that's interesting.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_04: Both of them.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_04: And it's a and the there are powers that are outside of you, but also inside of you.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_04: And it's a it's a an attraction between the evil desire that's in here and the temp tempting thing out there.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_04: And we get into this dance and it it leads somewhere bad, but it's yeah.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: In general, I do find it helpful thinking about the kind of the three enemies of the soul, like the world, the flesh, and the devil.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: Because we've got the flesh in there, like I am also part, like I'm my own enemy, uh, sin is my problem.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: But there's also the world and this the kind of the sways of society and and things that are going on communally, I suppose, that that take the f the the sin that's in you and it and cause it to grow.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_03: But then there's also the devil, and there is this power.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's yeah, it's okay to say like uh Jesus is dealing with a power that isn't actually you.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: This is not this is not you, this is nothing to do with you.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: He is he is crushing the head of the serpent right now and he's cracking on with it.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_03: Like we we need we need to be able to look at the cross and understand what's going on there in a way that's not just he's paying the price for my individual sin.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: But we've got the world, the flesh, and the devil that's being dealt with.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_06: Dealt with.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_03: And put yeah, the so to talk about sin as a power is is really helpful in that sense, yeah.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, because it then enables you to preach a gospel of deliverance, of victory, you know, God getting victory through Jesus Christ.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_04: I think of Romans chapter six at that point.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_04: Um in verse eleven it says, In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_04: Therefore, do not let sin reign in your mortal body.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_04: There's power terms, right?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_04: Sin is reigning in your body, so that you obey its evil desires.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_04: So sin, sin is sort of this enthroned ruler that has its own evil desires, right?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_04: In verse 12.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_04: Do not offer any part of yourselves to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_04: And so, like the alternative to sin is God, right?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_04: And that's that's another way of seeing like sin is a power, and it's a really powerful, it's more powerful than you are.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_04: And in Adam, sin had the power of my life.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_04: Now God has the power of my life.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_04: And so again, salvation is sort of outside of myself.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_04: I need to get delivered from this thing that's too big for me.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's particularly I I I've started saying sometimes in talks at universities, uh alluding to you know evil and darkness as a power and saying, Some of you in this room would have no idea what I'm talking about, but some of you really know what I'm talking about.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: Because there is an engaging with evil, there is an engaging with the occult or a consciousness of spiritual forces beyond myself that sometimes really I don't feel safe in that.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like there is an a kind of an awareness that evil isn't just the news stories about humans doing horrible things to other humans, but there is a bigger power.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: And um and so again, I I think now is a good time to weave that into our description of sin, like this this power beyond ourselves.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um I like that.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_04: Would that would now be a good time therefore to talk about defilement?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh-huh.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_04: Because what you can because what you were talking about there kind of reminds me of uncleanness.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_04: Like like as you say to a room full of people, some of you know you've felt.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_04: What have you felt?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_04: And so often people in those situations they'll they'll feel there's an uncleanness.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: Well that was exactly yeah, that's exactly the the thing I've been thinking about in the last couple of weeks.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um I've been getting to know.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: A couple of ladies in my church who are new to Jesus and have come from being very deep in kind of new age spirituality practices.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: And and I asked one of them two weeks ago, I said, How does the Holy Spirit feel different to other spirits?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, we our conversations enter some amazing wild and wacky territory.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: But I was like, How does the Holy Spirit feel different?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um and she said, clean.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_03: She was like, Oh, it's like spiritual hygiene.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: And and I thought, oh, that now means as I now read in the accounts of Jesus' life when he's casting out spirits and demons, it often says unclean spirits.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm noticing that now more.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, okay, yeah.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, and uncleanness.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think defilement as a as a the um defilement as a word for sin helps as well when we think about the nature of shame being kind of wrapped up in sin as well.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: The feeling of like I I'm unclean because of things I've I've done, I feel dirty on the inside, but but there's also a I feel unclean because of what other people have done to me.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's the result of someone else's sin also needs to be sorted out in my life.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um which is quite helpful.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_04: And it it resonates with people so much.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um, the number of times I've I've kind of said that, you know, I j I just have felt that I want a power shower on the inside.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, I want a power shower on the inside.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_04: And that's the whole promise of when Jesus comes to get baptized.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_04: John that John the Baptist says, you know, he will come and he will baptize with the Holy Spirit.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I can only get you wet on the outside, but you know, there is somebody coming to to do that true cleansing.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um it it also speaks, I guess, this defilement language of um the depth of the problem of sin.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um so Jesus in in Mark chapter seven is talking to people who they know what clean and unclean mean.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_04: They've read Leviticus, right?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_04: And then they've added to Leviticus, not just things about unclean and clean animals, but they've gone through all sorts of ritual washings and they have added to Scripture a whole bunch of processes and rituals that will keep them safe from the bad thing.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_04: And the bad thing is out there, and we will just try and stay as clean as we can on the inside.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_04: And then Jesus says, uh, verse 17 of Mark chapter seven, after he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_04: Are you so dull?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_04: Jesus asked them.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_04: Don't you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_04: For it doesn't go into their heart but into their stomach and then out of the body.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_04: In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_04: He went on, What comes out of a person is what defiles them, for it is from within, out of a person's heart, that evil thoughts come sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance, and folly.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_04: All these evils come from inside and defile a person.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_04: What is the gospel, therefore, that you preach to someone who really feels that?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's yeah, it's the gospel of the God who will come right to the deepest part and needs to give you a new heart.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's the like out of your heart comes all this stuff.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: So what you need is a new heart.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: And also, and I yeah, I love I mean the story of the bleeding woman just a couple of chapters earlier in Mark V.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um she's been bleeding for 12 years.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: Uh most likely interpretation of this is it's some kind of gynecological menstrual issue.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: And to think even in that scenario, yes, she is physically, it's quite a dirty situation.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: She spiritually is unclean.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_03: But to think even in that we see this example of Jesus who will heal even that part of her, like even that hidden and shameful, but most deep of parts of her.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_03: To think this is a this is a God who's not just concerned with well, will you get back in your box and stop crossing over the boundary line?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_03: This is a God who's like, I'm going to meet you right at the deepest part of you and change and heal that.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_04: That's beautiful, isn't it?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_04: Power, he feels power come out from Yeah.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_04: And then he says, daughter, your faith has saved you, uh, could be saved or healed.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_04: You know, yeah, yeah.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_04: It's that kind of saved, healed in this thoroughgoing way.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_04: Um I think of uh Ezekiel chapter 36, where the prophet promises, I will take you out of the nations, I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_04: Verse 25, I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you'll be clean.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_04: I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_04: I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_04: I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh, and I will put my spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_04: And here's like a new yes, there's a cleansing, but it there's also I will now move you to now from within, out of your heart, will come Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentlemen, self-control.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know what's funny though?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: Is stone, it seems a lot cleaner than a bloody fleshy heart.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_05: Oh yeah.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_03: As you read that, I was like, oh, okay, yeah.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: You know, as in terms of imagery, like I'll take out your yeah, it might be marble, lovely white client, you know, shiny, whatever.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: I'll but I'll take that out and I'll give you a heart of flesh.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like physics.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: I'm visualising that and thinking this is a messy surgery.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_04: And so but doesn't that describe so the Pharisees thought that they um they wanted to be clean but were hard.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_04: What's a good image?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_04: That's a good way to put it is you know, stone, yeah, yeah.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_04: You've washed you've washed your stone.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_04: And so that they're actually cultivating a stone.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_03: I've got a friend that says, um, you know, in response to kind of you're having a messy house or something, well, um graveyards can be tidy.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_06: Exactly.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like that you know, mess is a sign of life.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: There's something about there's something about like uh God's version of what clean looks like.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_06: What is clean look like?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: Is it is is life.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's a I guess like Jordan Pearson said at the end there about like if you miss the mark, you miss life.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_03: We're saying here as well, um there's a it's not just an uncleanness, it's a deadness.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's why often you get in the laws in Leviticus, also the laws around cleanliness are to do with death and loss of life.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: And so there's um there's a combining here between life and cleanliness.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: Which we know in hospital, you know.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: Lack of hygiene equals death.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_03: But there's something helpful to remember there.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_03: This isn't just, oh, it's gonna clean you up a bit.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: You actually need you need to be brought to life.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_04: Should we move to that as a motive?
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it does.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um because I think I think death as an image for sin is really interesting in scripture.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_04: And it it brought to mind just a little saying that I I heard uh Rowan Williams, the former Archbishop of Canterbury making on uh Unbelievable uh a couple of years ago.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_04: And uh he he was speaking about um speaking to an Eastern Orthodox theologian, and the Eastern Orthodox theologian was kind of saying, Oh, you guys in the West, um, you're more interested in the moral side of things and sin and wickedness.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_04: In the East, we're more into life and death as as the big kind of goal.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_04: I thought it was really interesting.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_04: I'd I'd love to hear your comments on it.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Something which really came into focus for me as a graduate student, encountering one or two theologians not just from the Russian, but from the Greek world.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'd been working on Russian Christianity, but I was getting to know the Greek world a bit better.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: And one of those theologians still alive, Christos Yanaras, who's a very formidable Greek theologian, he likes to say that Christianity is is not a religion.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's life.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the issues around morality are not between good and evil, between life and death.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: And the church is not an institution, it is the community where you you grow in life.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh all of these things, I th I think, are uh crucially important when we're tempted to think of the church as a struggling institution that has to get recruits to you know to manage its image in the world and all the rest of it.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: And my heart sinks a lot when I hear that language.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm all in favour of mission.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: But as as Paul says, the more we do, the more we fuss, the more we struggle to market our product, somehow the less it looks like life, and the more we give a we give across, put across a message of feeling anxious.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's I sometimes say it's the difference between saying, come to church and you will you will live, and as well as the church saying, come to church because we will die without you.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to disappear unless you join us.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_04: That's a good find, isn't that?
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's really good.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_04: And it's really good.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_04: We do mission out of a lack, and we say, hey, world, come and fill us because we're dead without you.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, the church is dying.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that shouldn't be a sentence.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_04: We have life.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_04: The church has life.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_04: Do you want to come and join us because sin is death?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, one question about that.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_03: Is sin defined as death, or is death a result of whatever this sin thing is that we're trying to articulate?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe it's a bit better.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_04: And so that's that's why I was uh I'm I would push back a little bit on we don't talk about the moral thing of good and evil, we talk about life and death.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_04: Um why not have both?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um the wages of sin is death.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: Is death.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_04: The gift of God is eternal life.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and it's helpful.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: You'll often use the f the kind of the three D's, the darkness, death, disconnection.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: If we turn from the God of love and light um and life, then we find ourselves darkness, death, disconnection.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_03: But it but the turning is more the thing we're trying to articulate here as we talk about what sin is.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: And um and yet salvation is a resurrection, it's a bringing into life, and so therefore part of if that's what the solution is, then obviously part of the problem that we're entangled in.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: Is this death that we have Yes, we've felt born been born into.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_03: See that's that's what so I guess, yeah, it's a state rather than a um action.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_04: It's a realm that we find ourselves in, even before we've committed an act, right?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I'm born.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_04: I'm born into the world.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you're born dying.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_04: And um I I think the word corruption is quite interesting in English as a word that fits in both categories.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_04: Like um the milk went off, it was corrupted, you know, in in that sort of deathly sense.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_04: And there's a there's a sort of a physical corruption um that we're all embroiled in.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_04: And a corpse is very corrupted.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_03: That's another one of the Hebrew words would be for twisting or distortion kind of thing.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um avon, avon.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, avon, yeah.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_03: Which uh which I forgot in my Hebrew vocab test, so I thought, oh, that's that's funny.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_03: Forgot sin.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so yeah, an example of where that might be a helpful connecting point is the what is wrong with the world.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: There's something wrong with the world.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_03: What is wrong with the world?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: That sense of something is off.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_03: And um maybe maybe just instead of like it's off in terms of like a uh a plum line, thinking it's off in terms of milk, yeah, it's actually quite helpful.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, this yeah, it's off and it's probably pretty deathly.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: Past it's best.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you're not gonna be very well.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe part of why we're struggling with saying sin equals death, and and I don't think we should just say sin equals death, but part of why that is, is because we only think in the biological, whereas the Bible is obviously very born into death.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's you know, yeah.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_04: So, like Ephesians 2, as for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_04: All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_04: Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath, but because of his great love for us, God who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_04: So to say that sin equals death is not to say um Yeah, it's it's it's to have a richer understanding of death as well.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: That's helpful.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I guess lots of the things we're talking about, it's we it's like it's like sin is this big um stone into a lake, and all there's there's all these ripple effects, and and we're trying to get as close as we can to defining what this thing is at the middle, but but it's not unrelated to all the ripple effects.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like the um the problem with your heart leads to the uncleanness because it's what comes out of your heart.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: It defiles you, and the the problem of turning away and rejecting the god of life obviously leads to spiritual and physical death.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_03: And it there's but we're trying we're trying to like figure out Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_03: Vokab for it.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_04: And uh one thing I'll say in favor of thinking in in terms of death is that like when I think of the stupid things that I do, th it's helpful to think I just invested in death there.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_04: I d I just there was just I I invested in a dead loss, you know?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_04: Like if I if I sought to take a shortcut on something, or if I sought to lie about something or you know, deceive or or pretend to to be something that I'm not in certain areas.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_04: If I've participated in gossip or if I participated in community killing sins, for instance, it's kind of like I'm I'm kind of jumping in with both feet.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_04: I'm I'm sort of I'm living out the the living death.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: And this is where I'm I'm only a couple of episodes in, but the Bible projects are doing a series on the Ten Commandments.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_03: And to think about the commandment like thou shalt not kill.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um with each of them, if you flip them on its head, it helps you know more about well, what you should you do then.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_03: How do I so the the opposite is you shall nurture life.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_03: And and when you start thinking like that, it's like, oh yes, I can tell.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_03: That you know you just know when you've said something and it's kill, it's it's done a killing work.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like a two-sided thing.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_03: That yeah, yeah, I know that is helpful.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_03: Death, the other reason why death is helpful though, is um, and I I always remember this is maybe about eight years ago, um, my friend Rebecca was speaking on Ephesians 2.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: Now, Rebecca has a stammer, which is her absolute gift as a preacher because she is slow and everyone is hanging on her words.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, you lean in, and she has really thought through everything she is gonna say.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I really remember um her speaking on this passage, and it got to a point where we're hanging, we're hanging, and she just she just dropped this thing of like dead people can't do anything, and and making that point that we can't raise ourselves, yeah, but we also can't clean up our room.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_03: We we you dead people cannot do anything, yeah.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: And so an awareness of not just what is salvation, oh it is life, life found in Jesus, but it but also the mechanism of salvation, yeah, it's uh it's a something that kind of done to us, it's got to be done.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: Life that has come to us.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um which means that as she's preaching, as we're speaking into situations, we're not we're not so much, um I'm often saying we're we're not so much addressing Hercules at the crossroads but Lazarus in the tomb, right?
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_04: Her Hercules, you know, the the great hero has to do all his great uh tasks.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_04: And one one of his labors is at one point um there's a road that goes left and a road that goes right, and left is is vice and right is virtue, and vice is uh personified by this woman who's very voluptuous and saying, Come with me this way, and tempting him in that way.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_04: And then virtue is a very prim and proper lady who's saying, you know, she doesn't look like she'll be much fun, but it's the right thing to do.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, okay.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_04: And what what is Hercules going to do?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_04: Well, he's a hero.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_04: So eventually he says no to vice, and he says yes to virtue.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_04: Well done.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_04: And sometimes we preach like that, and it's like, don't say no to the devil and all his works and say yes to Jesus.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_04: It doesn't look like a lot of fun.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_04: I know it doesn't look like a lot of fun, but it's not hell.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_04: So at least correctly.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's type two fun.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know about the types of type one fun?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: Is you're having fun while you do it?
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: Type two fun.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's not fun now, but it will be after.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_03: It will be.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_03: So there you go.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_03: This is type two fun.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_03: Type two fun Christianity.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, basically it's it's it's hell on earth, but at least it's not hell in eternity.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_04: And um and so we we preach as Hercules at the crossroads and and uh and at that point we're treating people as decision-making individuals who can make one choice or something.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_03: Who stand on some kind of neutral ground.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_03: From which they can go one way or the other.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_04: Whereas if you're like, I am I am proclaiming the voice of Christ to Lazarus in the tomb, yeah.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_04: It's like Lazarus has not got the ability to do this.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's gotta come from outside.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_04: It's gotta be the voice either the voice of Christ brings to life or nothing's gonna happen here.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I think I think that makes all the difference in our criticism.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_04: So what have we done?
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_04: We've done trespass, power, defilement, and death.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_04: Death.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_04: Should we do idolatry?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, let's do idolatry.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um don't take that out of context.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: Let's do it.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um Harry, don't put that on Instagram.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_04: We're doing a lot of sin in this episode.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um I was I was thinking yesterday about well, I just sort of exist in you know, musicals and music sometimes.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_03: I was thinking about these different aspects of sin.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_03: And the song that came to mind for this one, the only one I could come up with.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_03: I just can't wait to be king.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_04: Uh the lion cake.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um that would be self-idolatry.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_03: So putting putting yourself in God's place.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um I suppose idolatry is is to substitute God for something else.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_03: Most of the time it's probably you.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_04: Substitute God.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_04: That you orbit around that become the highest thing in your life.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_04: And you serve and you end up serving the idol.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_04: Which is yeah, really.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_03: I um I s I spoke a bit on this um a couple of years ago at Leeds University on um Mark X, so the the rich young man.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_03: Because in this thinking about um change and self-improvement and like how do what do I do to inherit eternal life?
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like even in our kind of self-help and following our own rules and having good habits and da da da, even that can be a self-idolatry.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: And you notice that in this story because as soon as Jesus puts his finger on money and says like one, you know, you're doing it all well.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you're doing it well.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, one thing you lack.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_03: There's one more thing to sometimes I think, you know, genius Jesus is like, yeah, this this is just one one more thing, one more thing, one more thing.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, go and sell all you have.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_06: Everything.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_06: And give it to the poor.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_06: Everything.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_03: And and come and follow me.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and he the next bit it could have said it could say, and so he turned to Jesus and said, I'm gonna find that really hard.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_03: Will you like would you help me?
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, right.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_03: But it doesn't.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_03: It says, Disheartened by the saying he went away sorrowful because he had many possessions.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_03: And you think, Oh, the but the money isn't the problem.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's Jesus has put his finger on the centre of gravity in this man's life and said, The one thing you lack is is me in that place.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_03: You need me in the centre of gravity.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, get rid of the possessions that have a hold of your heart and follow me.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_03: And and that's why he's like, Oh gosh, I can't do how would I?
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_03: How would I take out this fun you know?
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_04: I would I would have to deconvert from the actual God of my life.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_04: And make you, Jesus, the actual God of my life.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_03: And so you're asking, yeah, what's what's the thing you could you think you couldn't live without?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that means it's a good question for Christians.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's the really important thing about all of this is this is not just how do I translate this Christian y word of sin to all those people outside of the church who have no idea what sin is.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, no, no.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like this is how do we how do we uh tread daily the path of repentance if we don't even know what we're repenting of?
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how do we come to Jesus again and again and enjoy him and the life on offering him if we don't know what it is he's rescued us from and as As we speak with one another, yes, and in our kind of preaching and an articulation of a celebration of what it means to be in Christ.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_06: Yes, yes.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_03: To be able to look at our own lives through these lenses is really helpful.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so to say, okay, what is it that I if I'm honest, think I couldn't live without?
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_03: And even if it's um even if it's like my morning coffee or a particular person, even if it's even if it's my spouse, even if it's my phone, like the Lord is the one who sustains your life.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_03: You actually don't need a smartphone.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_03: Have you ever thought about that?
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_03: How dare you?
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my goodness.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_03: Do you want just in terms of reordering our perception on what we what our life, where is our life source?
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_06: If God is life.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_04: Where I'm finding life from.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_04: I often I use the analogy in preaching.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_04: When I was 20, uh, for my 20th birthday, my mother got me a t-shirt that said cricket is life.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_06: The rest is more detail.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_04: And it was true, you know, I was never happier than when chasing a little red bull around a green field.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_04: It was life.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_04: And when I did well at crickets, I was, you know, I was alive.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_04: And when I was doing badly at cricket, I was a terrible person.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_04: And death.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_04: So there's a good definition.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so that that that's so so then what's on your t-shirt?
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, you know, what is what would you say is life and the rest is mere detail.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_04: But what I like about idolatry as a as a motif for sin is that it means that you can preach to Christian and non-Christian at the same time in every sermon.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_04: And I I think the genius um who did this was Tim Keller.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um there he is in Manhattan.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_04: And because I think perhaps his primary motif for talking about sin was Counterfeit Gods, which is the name of his best-selling book about um idolatry.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that really helped him to come across as somebody who's first applying it to himself and all the Christians in the room, and um, we can all put other things uh ahead of Jesus, and we need to constantly be repenting and believing.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_04: And let me invite you, other New Yorker, to also consider um is Jesus worthy of of number one in your life?
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_04: And and and so it I think what's beautiful about idolatry is that it enables you to preach to Christian and non-Christian at the same time.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_04: I think one of my um one of my caveats is if idolatry is the only kind of motif that we look at in terms of sin, it can be quite um it can implicitly preach the gospel of I have been too involved in my phone, I now need to be more involved in my Bible.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_04: Or like like like and the the the switch that happens is me, right?
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_04: So that so that the salvation then becomes same as the missing the mark thing.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, maybe.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_04: And and one one of the this is not intended by anybody, but if um if the message I'm hearing is I love my phone too much, very quickly what I'll start to think is I should love less.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_04: You know, like like in this disordered love, I need to stop, I need to stop loving this thing so much.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I think a lot of what people then find is is that they are suspicious of all kinds of love, or you know, that it can become a kind of a heart shrinker.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um if if if you know, it's just one of those things, if if if all you've got's a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_04: And if you if you do marriage counselling with any number of people, there could be 20 reasons why the couple is on your couch talking about the troubles that they've been having for the last six months.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um what I've noticed is that in in certain um pastoral counselling um environments, like the one lens that you're meant to look through is sort of idolatry.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_04: And there could be all sorts of things that are that are kind of going on.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um I'm all f I'm all for idolatry as a lens.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_04: I just think it's it's not the only one.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's helpful.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_03: I wonder if idolatry is really helpful in in preaching to Christians.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes Christians really love to be convicted of things.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know what I mean?
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_03: And and we just you know, you come away from you want to come away from a sermon feeling like you've you've you're a bit wounded.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_03: Because because it's like, oh, that was really good.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's really good.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, that was really good.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I know.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I was really challenged by that.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and maybe that's a conversation for another time about, you know, uh what that then breeds in our churches.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_03: But um I think uh perhaps Christians are more ready to hear a really kind of you know, it's like like getting the scalpel out and like challenging it, oh, there's this problem in your heart, and it's like, oh wow, yeah, I really need to hear this, and it's driven me back to the arms of Christ and woo, yeah, great.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I wonder if it's at times requires a bit, a bit more like front-footedness to do the Jesus in Mark 10 thing and to say and to like call out someone else, or to assume in a whole room of people, or even to assume in the life of a friend who I probably not had this deep of a conversation with before, like what do I what is it that I think is maybe in the position of God and if we're it yeah, it requires further vocabulary to help diagnose what might it be that that someone is has got as a centre of gravity they're orbiting around, and why is that not a good thing, and all this kind of stuff.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_03: And um I think it's Becky Manley Pippett that uses the phrase of like a god complex.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's quite helpful.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, have you got a bit of a god complex?
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I probably um but maybe there's that aspect as well.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's it's so you're so right that there are certain people who they really want to be challenged to the point where you're right, I I I wasn't completely focused on Jesus this week.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_04: But I think sometimes they they might think that if I was properly focused on Jesus this week, I wouldn't have gone to work.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_04: I would have my my quiet time would have been 9 to 5, Monday to Friday and and and all that kind of thing.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um Whereas actually um to be truly liberated from idolatry is to be freed for the world and to love the world.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_04: So I like I I think of um Elijah and the prophets of Baal.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_04: So there is genuine idolatry that's going on, and they are they are calling on Baal, oh Baal, hear us, and you know, Baal's not listening, and so they slash themselves and they ritually kind of you know go around their altar to try and get fire to fall from heaven.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_04: And they are they are working and God's not there.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_04: You know, good God is inert, and they are very active, and that's a that's a good sign of what idolatry breeds.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_04: You haven't got a living God, so all the energy is coming from below, right?
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, okay.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_04: That's a good sign of idolatry.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_04: But what's the liberation of that is well, the fire falls from heaven for Elijah.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_04: And and he can he kind of does everything while Elijah just waits.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_04: And I I think idolatry names the fact that we work for a silent God, right?
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_04: Whether our God is our career or whatever it is, you know, we're we're working hard for an inert, you know, we're we're active, God's inactive.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_04: What the solution to that is actually the gospel, where um the one from heaven falls all the way down to earth and does everything for us.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_04: It sort of liberates us, liberates us, and we wait while he works.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_04: And and that's the that's the kind of the the flip of it.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_04: And if we truly got the gospel at that stage, I think it could liberate us from constantly taking our spiritual temperatures and wondering if I loved the right thing in the right way in the right way.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, okay.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's helpful.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_04: Should we finish with with one motif for sin?
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um uh that I think you have really helped me to see, uh, which is betrayal as a motif for sin.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_04: Tell you about betrayal.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_03: I'll tell you about betrayal.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, my thinking around uh betrayal as a motif for sin, I think came from as we as we talk now more and more about what the nature of marriage and love and sex and relationships are.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um more and more I'm finding in my conversations that I'm painting the the kind of picture of Genesis to revelation, this story begins and ends with a wedding.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_03: This is a god who has betrothed himself to his unfaithful people, and like that's that's like kind of painting this picture of marriage as the story of um salvation, I suppose, and that our human relationships are kind of mirroring that.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_03: And that I find myself setting a context of that in order to talk about human relationships, but then yeah, then getting me thinking, okay, well, if Jesus is bridegroom, um we are we are yeah, we're not just um breaking a marriage law, right?
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_03: We're not just um ignoring our husband or like saying things that displease him.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_03: We are sleeping with someone else.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember um there's a couple a couple times I've done kind of really speedy read throughs of the Bible, and um when you do that, you're reading Ezekiel in a day and it's mental.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_03: So Ezekiel.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, Ezekiel.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_03: I remember I really remember slogging through it and being like, oh gosh, this is a lot to take in.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_03: But then being absolutely smacked around the face by Ezekiel 16.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's a like it's it's quite a big chapter, um, and it's metaphorical kind of painting this picture of the God who has um who has cared for this baby that was left out on the street.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and uh it says uh on on the day of your birth, on the day you were born, your cord was not cut, you weren't washed with water to cleanse you, you weren't rubbed with salt, you were not wrapped in swaddling clothes, it's this like naked, helpless little baby left out orphaned, and and and that being a picture of Israel and God as the the one who has like cared and nurtured this child, brought them up and they've become a beautiful woman.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_03: And this image then of this this um beautiful woman, all that she is and has become is because of him.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_03: Every all the jewellery she has, he's she's clothed.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_03: I I put a ring on your nose.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know?
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_03: This is actually one of the reasons I have a nose ring.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's another conversation.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_03: But Ezekiel 16 um, and uh yeah, it's a sign of like being betrothed to the Lord.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um I put a ring on your nose, earrings in your ears, beautiful crown your head, like he has loved her.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_03: All that she is is because of who he is, and and then verse 15 but you trusted in your beauty, and in ESV played the whore and lavished your whoring on any passerby, and like this gear shift, yeah, yeah.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_03: And this chapter, at least in the ESV, has the word whore more than any other piece of writing I've ever read.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_03: And it just is so um like visual and um stark.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_03: Verse 30.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_03: How sick is your heart, declares the Lord God, because you did all these things, the deeds of a brazen prostitute.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_03: And it says, Yeah, you were not like a prostitute because you scorned payment, adulterous wife, and then give gifts to prostitutes.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_03: You gave gifts to your lovers, like it's like you it's you're not even taking payment, you are you are paying to betray me.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and oh Matt, it's so like it's brutal.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um wonderfully the chapter does end with hope, as these things always do.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_03: God says, I will establish my covenant with you, you shall know that I'm the Lord.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um that you may remember and be confounded and never open your mouth again because of your shame when I atone for you for all that you have done, declares the Lord God.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the d picturing betrayal particularly is helpful as a description of sin because it is inherently relational and and you understand automatically why God might punish.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_03: Because with each of these other things, it's sometimes well, not all of them, but sometimes it feels a bit arbitrary.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, okay, well you've set this rule and then I displayed the rules, and now I'm gonna somehow face the equivalent like how somehow I then deserve the cross.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_03: But but here you've got okay, well imagine that you imagine that you have like loved your wife for years and years, and then you come home, you walk into bedroom, she's with someone else.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_03: You have every right to be angry.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_03: You have every right to say, I want nothing to do with you anymore.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_03: And and it it brings us into God's response to our sin.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_03: So not just the consequence for us, so not just like um uh we were talking before about you know, I I have a uh heart the out of my heart uh hard and sick heart comes defilement or but you know the wages of sin is death.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_03: This isn't just talking about the consequence for us, betrayal helps us a bit more to understand what does our sin do to God and how does why is he totally justified in his response to our sin.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um and because the we might not have especially I guess speaking with younger generation, um we don't really care about our king and whether we you know we I mean we don't and we don't really necessarily have there's not always an agreement of some kind of objective morality, even.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, but we all have experiences of relationships and friendships and their joys and sorrows, and most of the songs you listen to are all about love and the heartbreaks and the revenge and yeah.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_04: Been listening to some Tay Tay, have you?
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_03: Well, exactly, yes, yeah.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_03: Revenge albums, yeah.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_03: Hey, our Christmas song.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_03: This is what I realized.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think it was about four years ago I had uh I was I was processing a breakup in December, worst time because or every single song, every single Christmas song.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_03: Last song except from Carols.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_03: Carols are clings.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_06: I gave you my heart the very next day.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_06: That's that's easy.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, 16 years.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_03: I gave you my heart, you gave it away.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um And so it is in our music vocab, it's in our friendship and relationship vocab, it's in even betrayal between friends.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_04: So how do you how do you turn the corner from okay, there's a category for betrayal?
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_04: Is that really what I've done?
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I didn't grow up in the church.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um how how have I betrayed Jesus?
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_04: I don't I don't even know Jesus.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_03: How do you kind of Ooh, that is helpful?
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_03: I think the phrase I oh yeah, that's a good point.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_03: The phrase I I guess the phrase I use is it's you do need to paint a bit of a picture of this this God of love who has made you.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_03: And that we have betray we maybe, maybe I'm relying on Romans 1, the kind of like like the divine nature of God can be perceived in things that have been made.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like there is some I don't know.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe I'm relying on that for a base understanding.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_03: But um something about painting a picture of this god of love and then saying, and we have betrayed his love, which I guess plays into idolatry.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_03: But that's a good question.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think?
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_04: I th I think Romans 1 is is really interesting because um so we we know by nature um the the God who has made us, we suppress this truth in ungodliness and then give ourselves to other things, Romans 1 kind of says.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_04: And then one of the um one of the chief effects of us giving ourselves to other things is actually disorder relationships.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_03: Social relationships, yeah.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um and so um disordered love um in the human realm is is is really parallel to the disordered love that we're meant to have with God.
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_04: And is there is there a way of doing like an analogy I I sometimes use is um if I'm speaking on a university campus, I might be staying in somebody else's house.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_04: And I said, Well, I I'm staying in Ian's house and and it's it would be strange, wouldn't it, if I came down in the morning, ignored Ian, ignored the fried breakfast that he'd made us, you know, went into the fridge, poured myself, you know, a glass of orange juice, didn't speak to him, left.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_04: And if I kept on doing that, um at some stage, Ian's gonna say, get out of my house.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um and you know, it doesn't matter.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_04: Even if I'm a really good house guest and I and I hoover the floors and and and I I clean the house, that might make me a servant.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_04: That doesn't make me a good house guest.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_04: Now that is is um not anywhere near as relational as the you're in a relationship and and you've kind of turned away.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_04: But is is there a way of sort of taking that that sort of thing that here is here is Jesus?
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_04: Um you know, don't you, that life has come to you from outside yourself?
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm here telling you the one who is your life, the one who's given himself who's given you life, and the one who on the cross gave his life for you with arms wide open.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_04: Um and and I guess what's interesting about Ezekiel 16 is it's sort of after a whole bunch of like unmistakable acts of love that the Lord has done for Israel.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_04: That they that they then are constituted as as betrayers.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean if you if you're reading through from Genesis to Ezekiel in that order, you've seen this play out.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_03: You've seen the faithfulness of God and Lane.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_03: Every time you're like, How have you forgotten, guys?
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's only 40 years since he did a really epic thing, and they're like, oh wait, 40 years actually is quite a long time.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um but yeah, it then it's such an accurate description of what has happened from Genesis to Ezekiel that you then start thinking, oh wait, well, from Ezekiel till now is still pretty accurate.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_03: And perhaps think about Ezekiel 16, it it's a description of God and his people.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_03: So this as and this is another dimension of the conversation is sin not just an individual thing, yeah, but as a as a corporate thing, as a we we as humanity have betrayed God because you look well, we if we're living in a pretty secular godless society or or in a in a different culture worshiping some different god, we you can still you can still say we have abandoned God, we've betrayed we we're not talking about his life, we're not enjoying his life, are we?
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_03: You just know looking around, we're not never talking about him.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_03: So even if there is an individual sense of culpability, sin also has a c a communal aspect to it.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_04: Which is what Romans 1 is totally trying to do.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_04: Um I think we'll get into this in a in a future episode, I think.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_04: But but I think Paul is is wise to talk in the corporate level first before then talking about individual sin.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_04: And in a sense, he's kind of getting us all to sort of point the finger at sort of the Greco-Roman world in all its debauchery.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_04: And then he says in Romans chapter two, you though.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, yeah.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um if you if you're pointing the finger at them, you've got two fingers pointing back at you.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_04: And so so he's very clever in the way he tries to convict of sin.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_04: He's trying to say, there's a corporate thing.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you can see the world's not right, can't you?
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_04: You can see right.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_04: And you can see maybe we are not right.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_04: And you can, you know, and and then it's like this, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's gradually spiraling in.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_03: But that's the same with probably each one of these, isn't it?
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's a kind of um you look out into the world and you see w whatever vo vocab you're using, you see darkness in the world.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_03: And oh, why is why is the world dark?
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, it's full of darkness because it's full of us.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_03: Darkness is in us.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, that probably means in me.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's like you're always just zooming in gradually.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_03: And so yeah.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_04: Brilliant example of this that happened to me two weeks ago.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um uh, I was in church and I was I was playing drums in church, and just uh just as we were finishing up the hymn before the preacher got up to preach, there's this noise, right?
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_04: And and somebody's like right next to me and says, Is somebody gonna do something about that noise?
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_04: I said, Don't worry, I'll I'll see to it.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_04: So I go to the back, the PA desk, what's the noise?
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_04: We don't know what it is.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um I was like, it's just seemed to be coming from everywhere, but nowhere.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_04: And we went outside to the into the church car park, and it was like, oh, it's kind of out here as well.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_04: And and anyway, I went back in and listened to the rest of the sermon, and everybody just had to like deal with this this sound.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_04: I go, I go to Tesco's after after it's and it's there as well.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh no.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm going to Facebook groups, Eastbourne Facebook groups.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_04: Like, is anybody noticing that there's this noise that no matter no matter where you go in Eastbourne, there's always the noise.
• 1:05:31
  SPEAKER_04: I drive home, right?
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's in the car.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_04: I put the washing, I put the washing on, and I'm like, oh, I'm just I'm just going to listen to a podcast while I hang the washing on the line.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_04: And as I open up my headphones, there's this it gets louder.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_04: I take the headphones out of out of their little casing and the noise stops.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_02: It was me.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_04: It was me the whole time.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_03: I was blaming church, I was blaming ESPN, the Yeah, yeah, as Taylor Swift could have told you.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_04: Which which song are we talking about there?
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's me.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_02: Hi.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's me.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_04: Very good.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_04: So we have looked at transgression, we've looked at power, we've looked at defilement, we've looked at death, we've looked at idolatry, we've looked at betrayal.
• 1:06:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um in a future episode, I would love I would love to continue talking about this.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_04: Let's talk about rebellion, which is often many people's go-to on scene.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_04: That's like that's like the first thing they think of.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_04: Jesus is king and you need to get off the throne.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_04: Sickness, addiction, exile or lostness, uh debt.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_04: And we might think of another one.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_03: I might have missed one there, but um foolishness, folly, folly.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_03: Folly.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_03: And so, in some ways, yes, we've talked about transgression and power and idolatry and defilement and death.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_03: But like we were saying before, whatever we talk about with sin, it's a reflection on who we think God is.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_03: And who we think we are.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_03: So what we've actually done is we've talked about a deliverer.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_03: And we've talked about grace.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_03: We've talked about um the a the right center of gravity, the right light, the right the life source.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the the one who cleanses, and the one who brings to life, and the one who loves us even when we fool around with other gods.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_04: And so he, yeah, the Lord is Hosea, like knocking on the brothel door, saying, I'll pay whatever it takes to have her back.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_04: Whatever the price is, I just want her back.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_04: That's who Jesus is.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_04: So praise God for him.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_04: Naomi, you did not disappoint sin experts.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, dude.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_04: We will pick your brains further on sin.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, and uh, we'd love to hear what you guys think.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, do email us on what is the email address?
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, podcast at speaklife.org.uk.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_04: Fantastic.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_04: We'd love to hear some feedback from you guys.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_04: But uh, until next time, it's bye bye from me.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_02: See you.