Latest / Kvetch & Release / Two Ontario police departments blame safer supply for hydromorphone seizure increases

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Two Ontario police departments blame safer supply for hydromorphone seizure increases · Kvetch & Release

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  Speaker 1: Welcome back to AM eight hundred. Ckl Wim, John Lidkey,
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  Speaker 1: Hope you are all doing well. Thank you for tuning in.
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  Speaker 1: The National Post has received data from two more Ontario
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  Speaker 1: police departments confirming that seizures of hydro morphone, which is
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  Speaker 1: an opioid as potent as heroin, have skyrocketed by one
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  Speaker 1: thousand percent or more since quote safer supply programs became
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  Speaker 1: available widely in twenty twenty. Joining me right now to
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  Speaker 1: discuss this is the executive director of the Center for
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  Speaker 1: Responsible Drug Policy, Adam zvo is back on the show. Adam,
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  Speaker 1: how you.
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  Speaker 2: Doing, I'm great, Thanks for having me back on the
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  Speaker 2: show so we can talk about this these incredible numbers. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: First, so what cities are we talking about here?
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  Speaker 2: So we're talking about Waterloo Region and Niagara Region for context.
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  Speaker 2: I got data about two months ago showing that hydromorphone
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  Speaker 2: seizures in London, Ontario, spiked by over three thousand percent
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  Speaker 2: between twenty nineteen and twenty twenty three, and many people
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  Speaker 2: strongly believe with good evidence that this is because of
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  Speaker 2: safer supply I mean safe suppler programs give out hydromorphone
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  Speaker 2: as a quote unquote safe alternative to illicted substances like fentanyl,
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  Speaker 2: because the idea is that if you buy your fencanel
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  Speaker 2: on the street, you don't know what's in it, you
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  Speaker 2: don't know if it's contaminated, so we'll just give you
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  Speaker 2: pharmaceutical opioids instead. But the thing is that for many
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  Speaker 2: drug users, hydromorphone is too weak for them, because fentanyl
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  Speaker 2: is fifty times stronger than hydromorphone or heroin. So they
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  Speaker 2: do the rational thing. They sell their hydromorphone, which they
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  Speaker 2: get for free on the black market, to get money
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  Speaker 2: to buy their drug of choice. And so that's been
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  Speaker 2: flooding communities with this drug and harm reduction activists, including
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  Speaker 2: many of their allies in the Trudeau governments and the
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  Speaker 2: BC governments like top level, like for example, the Minister
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  Speaker 2: of Mental Health and Addiction. They say this isn't happening.
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  Speaker 2: But in London, you know, we saw a giant spike
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  Speaker 2: from about one one thousand hydromorphim pill seazed in twenty
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  Speaker 2: nineteen to thirty than twenty twenty three. So I thought
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  Speaker 2: to myself, well, let's see if this trend plays out
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  Speaker 2: in other cities. So I emailed about ten other police departments.
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  Speaker 2: Many were uncooperative or unhelpful, but Waterloo and IAKAR came
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  Speaker 2: through and the data they showed was concerning and very
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  Speaker 2: much mashed what we saw in London.
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  Speaker 1: So let's start off then with Waterloo and what I guess.
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  Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting being able to do the framing
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  Speaker 1: as you do twenty nineteen, being before these programs became expanded,
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  Speaker 1: and then you know, using most recent figures, it's it's
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  Speaker 1: one of those you got two data points that can
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  Speaker 1: be pretty stark and telling a story here. So what
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  Speaker 1: do we see in Waterloo?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I mean in Waterloo only five hundred and eight
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  Speaker 2: hydromorphom pills were seased in twenty nineteen. Now, the following
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  Speaker 2: year it jumped by about eighty percent to nine hundred
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  Speaker 2: and ten pills, and then the following year it quintupled, sorry,
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  Speaker 2: by twenty twenty two it quintupled to five than one
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  Speaker 2: hundred and forty six, and then last year was five thousand,
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  Speaker 2: five hundred, So we're looking at a increase of like
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  Speaker 2: over one thousand percent, almost one thousand, one hundred. In
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  Speaker 2: Niagara region they only had about let me see, like
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  Speaker 2: nine sorry, three hundred pills in twenty nineteen, and then
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  Speaker 2: safe supply comes in twenty twenty, and then for some reason,
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  Speaker 2: their hydromorphim pill seizures triple to nine hundred and four pills,
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  Speaker 2: and then they continue to skyrocket every single year and
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  Speaker 2: reach four thousand, five hundred pills last year.
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  Speaker 1: So that's a huge increase from twenty nineteen, going from
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  Speaker 1: roughly three hundred up to forty five hundred last year
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  Speaker 1: like that, that is a very large increase.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, look, if you here's how we can put this
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  Speaker 2: all into context. So between these two municipalities, only about
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  Speaker 2: eight hundred pills hydromorphon pills were confiscated in twenty nineteen.
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  Speaker 2: Last year, between the two of them, ten thousand pills
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  Speaker 2: were confiscated, and just three of these pills is an
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  Speaker 2: enough to induce an overdose in an opioid naive user
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  Speaker 2: such as a teenager. So we're looking at over three
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  Speaker 2: thousand potential overdoses here, and that's really pernicious in general.
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  Speaker 2: But then when you take a step back and you
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  Speaker 2: realize that we as taxpayers are funding these pills, we
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  Speaker 2: are essentially shooting ourselves in the foot. We are paying
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  Speaker 2: to flood our own communities with pharmaceutical opioids, it's insane.
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  Speaker 1: So again your argument would be the risk here is
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  Speaker 1: just because these are being prescribed in such large numbers,
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  Speaker 1: distributed for free. What we're seeing by these seizures is
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  Speaker 1: not a result of prescribed opioids that are being out
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  Speaker 1: of nowhere just you know, flooding onto the streets and
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  Speaker 1: being seized. Rather, you're attributing this or suggesting that it's
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  Speaker 1: attributable to the safer supply programs.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely, and so I actually spoke with the Deputy Chief
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  Speaker 2: of the Waterloo Police and what he said is that
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  Speaker 2: there was a decrease in the seizures of pharmaceutical opioids
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  Speaker 2: in the mid to late twenty tens. And you can
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  Speaker 2: actually see that in the seizure data because I asked
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  Speaker 2: both police departments to give me twenty fifteen to twenty thirteen, sorry,
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  Speaker 2: twenty twenty three data, so we can see the years
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  Speaker 2: before safer supply. So you see that downward trend. And
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  Speaker 2: the reason why there's a downward trend is that drugs
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  Speaker 2: like fencinyl came in and vencanyl you know, once again,
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  Speaker 2: is fifty times stronger than hydromorphone. So people got addicted
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  Speaker 2: to it, and they just didn't want their pharmaceutical opioids.
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  Speaker 2: So no one wanted hydromorphone anymore because ventsanyl was so strong,
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  Speaker 2: and so it was being pushed out of the market,
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  Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden in twenty twenty, it
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  Speaker 2: starts roaring back. And what we have to keep in
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  Speaker 2: mind here is that if the hardcore addicts are using
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  Speaker 2: ventanyl and they don't like hydromorphone, that means this flood
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  Speaker 2: of pharmaceutical opioids is disproportionately going to people who are
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  Speaker 2: not experienced users, like teens like your construction worker who
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  Speaker 2: would have never experiment with heroin, but you know, maybe
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  Speaker 2: at an event, we'll try it a pill, you know,
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  Speaker 2: if that's recommended by his friend. So that's concerning some
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  Speaker 2: of the harm reduction activists and safer supply advocates. They'll say, oh,
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  Speaker 2: this is fine, because if we flood our communities with
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  Speaker 2: safe pharmaceutical opioids, that will displace the illicit market. But
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  Speaker 2: doesn't work that way because these drugs are not comparable
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  Speaker 2: to what we see on the illicit market. The Deputy
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  Speaker 2: Chief of Niagara Police did say that from what he sees,
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  Speaker 2: he is one hundred percent absolutely sure that it is
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  Speaker 2: merely expanding the total drug market.
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  Speaker 1: It's just adding more drugs into our community. Okay, I
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  Speaker 1: want to shift gears a little bit. We've spoken before
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  Speaker 1: about this issue and about the numbers and about how
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  Speaker 1: we're seeing this issue change. I want to just I
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  Speaker 1: wanted to have a little bit of a personal conversation
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  Speaker 1: with you about it all and your interests in it.
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  Speaker 1: Are Are you against safer supply programs in earnest as
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  Speaker 1: a whole, or is it the way that this is
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  Speaker 1: being rolled out? Like, what's your thoughts about this? So?
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  Speaker 2: I think that this particular model is grossly irresponsible. I
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  Speaker 2: think that there is a responsible model of safer supply
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  Speaker 2: that is out there, but it differs so greatly from
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  Speaker 2: what we see today that it'd be hard to say
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  Speaker 2: if it's the same thing. So I think, for example,
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  Speaker 2: that if we were to have a responsible model to
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  Speaker 2: safer supply, first of all, we would have to have
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  Speaker 2: witness consumption in almost all cases, you know, no more
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  Speaker 2: just handing out like bottles of pills and saying do
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  Speaker 2: whatever with them. Second of all, we need to make
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  Speaker 2: sure that safer supply has a recovery oriented goal. If
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  Speaker 2: we just give people opioids indefinitely, we're dissuading them from
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  Speaker 2: seeking treatments. And I'm hearing from physicians all over Ontario
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  Speaker 2: that enrollment and traditional recovery oriented treatments and medications like
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  Speaker 2: methadone and suboxone are really dropping off over the past
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  Speaker 2: year and a half. So we need to say that
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  Speaker 2: you get your safer supply for only a few weeks
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  Speaker 2: or a few months to help you transition into regular
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  Speaker 2: recovery addiction treatments. Third of all, and this is a
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  Speaker 2: bit controversial for some people, I think that if you
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  Speaker 2: want to make safe for supply work, you got to
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  Speaker 2: give people the drugs that match what they're used to.
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  Speaker 2: Right now, people who are using fentanyl, they have no
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  Speaker 2: real incentive to use safer supply as intended. Right It's
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  Speaker 2: not strong enough for them, so they sell the drugs.
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  Speaker 2: If you require supervised consumption, then why would they go
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  Speaker 2: Why would they spend you know, why would they waste
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  Speaker 2: their time going to a pharmacy several times a day
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  Speaker 2: to take a drug that doesn't do anything for them.
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  Speaker 2: So I think that there's a case to be made
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  Speaker 2: for providing safer supply fentanyl with the caveat, with the
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  Speaker 2: caveat that it's supervised and it's recovery oriented, not like
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  Speaker 2: what we're doing right now.
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  Speaker 1: So I don't want to speak on behalf of anyone,
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  Speaker 1: but I would imagine that what the response by the
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  Speaker 1: advocates of safer supply programs would be, Look, you can't
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  Speaker 1: go and forcibly change people's behaviors. They're gonna want to
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  Speaker 1: keep doing drugs. You can't go and just throw people
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  Speaker 1: into treatment. So why why not just let people, you know,
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  Speaker 1: do drugs like that?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think it's really pessimistic to us just to
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  Speaker 2: give up on people and think that, okay, they are
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  Speaker 2: beyond recovery. I think everyone has a chance for recovery.
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  Speaker 2: We often acknowledge that when it comes to people who
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  Speaker 2: come from higher incomes, right Like, we know lots of
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  Speaker 2: people who are professionals, I mean, who receive all sorts
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  Speaker 2: of support. There are lots of support programs, for example,
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  Speaker 2: white collar workers who develop addictions. But it seems that
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  Speaker 2: if someone becomes an addict and then becomes poor, homeless,
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  Speaker 2: you know, stigmatized, we say, oh, we should just give
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  Speaker 2: up on them. I don't think that that is an
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  Speaker 2: acceptable way to approach things. Second of all, if we
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  Speaker 2: are going to engage in harm reduction initiatives, and I
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  Speaker 2: think that harm reduction, you know, is it works in
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  Speaker 2: many cases. I think it's an important part of a
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  Speaker 2: multi pillar approach to addictions. But we have to make
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  Speaker 2: sure our interventions, when they are keeping some drug users safe,
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  Speaker 2: are not grievously harming other communities. And I think that
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  Speaker 2: our current models safer supply may be helping a very
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  Speaker 2: small number of people, but the cost that we're seeing,
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  Speaker 2: the social costs, the disorder, the new addictions, more than
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  Speaker 2: outweigh any benefits.
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  Speaker 1: So I would imagine as well that a lot of
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  Speaker 1: people who are advocates for safer supply and harm reduction
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  Speaker 1: also fall on the same spectrum of saying, look, the
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  Speaker 1: reason why we ended prohibition was because we wanted to
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  Speaker 1: legalize the substance and make alcohol safer for everyone, you know,
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  Speaker 1: back in the day. We should be doing the same
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  Speaker 1: thing here when it comes to drugs. What's your thought
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  Speaker 1: about legalizing drugs and if it could you know, help
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  Speaker 1: with some of the societal situations, health issues, the addictions
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  Speaker 1: issues that we're seeing, well, I.
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  Speaker 2: Think it would be disastrous. What people who advocate for
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  Speaker 2: drug legalization often downplay is the fact that alcohol is
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  Speaker 2: it has more harms than every other listed drug combined,
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  Speaker 2: because it is so available, because you can access it, like,
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  Speaker 2: there are far more alcohol debts and many other kinds
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  Speaker 2: of debts. Like I think that if you were to
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  Speaker 2: compare these different kind of drugs, you would probably conclude
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  Speaker 2: that we should actually put more restrictions on drinking alcohol.
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  Speaker 2: But you know, we're out a point in society where
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  Speaker 2: alcohol is accepted, it's normalized, so we've kind of accepted
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  Speaker 2: those social harms. I don't think that we should accept
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  Speaker 2: the more severe harms that would come with drug legalization.
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  Speaker 1: Well, Adam, I want to thank you so much for
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  Speaker 1: your time and for talking about this. I've put a
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  Speaker 1: request into Windsor Police for any figures regarding seizures on
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  Speaker 1: our streets. We'll see if they get back to us. Obviously,
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  Speaker 1: at this point when we're talking right now, I don't
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  Speaker 1: have that information available, but it would be a great
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  Speaker 1: conversation to have. And you know, you and I don't
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  Speaker 1: have to agree on every issue when it comes to
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  Speaker 1: this stuff, but I think it's really important to be
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  Speaker 1: able to have these conversations in a respectful, nuanced way
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  Speaker 1: where we can go back and forth on these things,
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  Speaker 1: because look, it's in our community, it's affecting us. These
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  Speaker 1: numbers are staggering. Whether or not the program is a
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  Speaker 1: good thing or a bad thing, these numbers exist, and
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  Speaker 1: you're out there and you're getting them, and you're prying
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  Speaker 1: them away from our police forces. And I wanted to
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  Speaker 1: thank you for your time.
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  Speaker 2: Well, thanks for having me here. Addiction is a complicated issue.
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  Speaker 2: These debates are not meant to be easy, and it's
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  Speaker 2: not possible for us to always agree, but disagreement is
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  Speaker 2: constructive and we should embrace it.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Adam Zevo is the executive director
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  Speaker 1: of the Center for Responsible Drug Policy. We're going to
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  Speaker 1: take a quick break. We'll be back right after this