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OJ Simpson: The Trial of the Century – Part 2 · The Twin History Podcast

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The Twin History Podcast brings together 2 Black Scotsman, 2
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twins, 1 historian and one storyteller to explore the
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moments that shaped our world. The show features Joe McCann,
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the eldest twin and resident storyteller, the one always
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asking why any of this actually matters, alongside Johnny
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McCann, 13 minutes younger, and the historian.
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Equipped with the dates, the fact and the receipt, Every week
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1:23
Welcome back to the Twin History Podcast, and you have joined us
1:26
for Part 2 of our look at the OJ Simpson case.
1:30
So you're saying you're saying welcome back.
1:31
Have you been sat there for the entirety of this week waiting
1:37
for the second episode? Like you're the caretaker?
1:40
You've always been the caretaker.
1:42
You've always been the caretaker, Sir.
1:44
Yes. I sat here all week and not left
1:46
this seat. Just preparing for Part 2 of the
1:50
OJ Simpson case. It is that consequential that we
1:54
have to take it that seriously. So OJ goes to trial on the 26th
2:00
of September 1994, as we mentioned in the last episode.
2:06
So he goes to trial in LA. This is something we'll get into
2:09
downtown LA, we'll get into that later.
2:12
But what is it? What is Los Angeles like at this
2:16
time? What?
2:17
What's environment? Well, obviously the OJ Simpson
2:21
trial happened a couple years after the LA riots.
2:26
The LA. Riots.
2:28
Yeah, I saw in 1992 I think 4 police officers were on trial
2:33
for beaten Rodney King to a pulp.
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This is It happened in March 91. Ronnie King was a motorist.
2:42
Whether he was intoxicated or not doesn't matter.
2:45
They pulled him out the car, they got him on his knees, they
2:48
beat him up with their batons and.
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It was all. Captured on video.
2:54
It was all captured on video. Someone video with the whole
2:58
thing. And Despite that, and despite
3:00
the evidence against them, the four officers were acquitted.
3:03
Yeah, they all a year later. So all these 4 white officers
3:08
were acquitted. And when the news of the trial
3:10
came down, LA essentially exploded.
3:14
And when the verdicts came down, the city erupted into to riots,
3:19
yeah, into chaos essentially. So there was Luton, there was
3:22
murders, there were shoot insurance.
3:25
There were basically roving gangs going around Los Angeles,
3:30
just it was discriminately attacking anyone essentially
3:35
indiscriminately, but mainly targeting white pedestrians or
3:39
white white civilians. But yeah, not not exclusively.
3:44
The Korean like American populace were also targeted
3:49
during this time as well, primarily in black
3:52
neighbourhoods. Well, before Rodney King.
3:56
Well, actually, after Rodney King's beaten within the space
4:00
of less than two weeks. 15 year old black girl Natasha Harlands
4:05
was shot and killed in a convenience store after a
4:08
dispute with the owner of that store she was in.
4:12
It was absolutely despicable. It was over like a carton of
4:17
orange juice. But The thing is, and again, I
4:20
hate to hate to keep bringing this up, but when I was in the
4:24
US, shopkeepers or storekeepers did seem suspicious of me until
4:30
I spoke. And like, OK, he's black, but
4:33
he's obviously he's not from here.
4:35
So he's less. And they're like eyes less
4:39
likely to be robbed in the store or like, up to anything
4:43
nefarious. And yeah, it was absurd.
4:46
Like when I go into a store, they were like suspicious of me.
4:50
This was all over the US East Coast, rightly so.
4:53
Rightly so. I remember there's an incident
4:56
in Queens with a shopkeeper. There was 1 in Boston at the
5:02
Walmart, which I won't get into, but but yeah, I, no, we can get
5:08
into if you want, but we're, we're, I'm just saying there was
5:11
a general suspicion of anyone who wasn't white in stores at
5:17
that time and that still prevailed to this day from my
5:20
own experience when I was there. And I'm not even American.
5:23
I'm certainly not in gangs. I'm certainly not planning to
5:27
rob a fucking store when I'm on holiday.
5:29
Maybe when I got back, I I planned to rob a store.
5:32
But I think most people were are obviously not planning to rob a
5:36
store. Yes.
5:37
And that, that's all I'm saying. But the Letitia murder came out
5:42
of like on Letitia Harlan's out of like unfounded fears, like
5:50
presidential biases and racism, essentially, Yeah.
5:55
And I think. Well, the Tisha Harland, you
5:58
have that and the Korean store owner was acquitted of her
6:03
murder. Yeah, she was something that
6:04
that was caught on on video from the CCTV in the.
6:09
Store. Yeah, she shot her as she was
6:10
walking away. She shot her in the back of the
6:12
head. The women got a suspended
6:14
sentence. I can't remember her name.
6:16
Last time I checked, she was still working in a store in LA.
6:21
But yeah, she basically she got acquitted.
6:23
She got off with murdering a child Was Soon Ji Do.
6:27
But I I always remember and I guess I think this was an OJ
6:32
documentary made in America, one of the jurors talking after and
6:37
they they said they found her guilty.
6:40
They found soon do soon jadu guilty and it was.
6:45
The judge who passed down something, Yes, yes, that's
6:48
true. She, yeah, she was found guilty.
6:51
Of course she was found guilty. And the judge in the case, she.
6:54
She sentenced her to, I think it was community service, wasn't
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it? It was something like that.
7:01
It was something insane like that.
7:03
So she was Joyce Carlin, who was a judge in the case.
7:08
She. Sentenced her to five years of
7:10
probation, five years of probation, so she doesn't go to
7:12
prison. If she commits another crime in
7:15
those five years, she's going to prison, Carlin said of the of
7:19
the case. That Mister react
7:21
inappropriately, Absolutely. But was that reaction
7:25
understandable? I think it was.
7:27
So you can understand why this LED to anger throughout the
7:31
black community in LA? Absolutely.
7:34
And not obviously compounded compounded by the Rodney King
7:39
beaten and the verdict the the following year, of course.
7:43
Yeah, you can understand it was in a sense.
7:47
The LA riots. It was lawlessness, it was
7:51
destruction of property, private and public.
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But. You can understand the anger
7:57
behind it OK so Letitia Harlins is is executed he's gone down
8:04
Rodney King is beaten and. And both, both the perpetrators,
8:09
all the perpetrators are, yeah, remember, 4 in the Rodney King
8:12
case, 4 policemen, 4 policemen are acquitted.
8:16
And Letitia Harlins killer is essentially given a lenient
8:22
sentence, which means she won't spend the day in gaol for
8:25
shooting someone in the back of the hen.
8:26
Shoot a child in the back of the hen.
8:28
Yeah, of course. Well, she was 15, so she was a
8:30
child. So we go, we go into the OJ
8:33
trial after the riots and after these, well, infamous cases.
8:40
Yeah, we go. We go in with Ellie still
8:45
recovering, still reverberating, shall we say, from those
8:50
incidents. OK, so, Marshall Clark, it
8:55
brings on a black prosecutor, Christopher Darden, to the case.
9:01
What, what tactics did they employ to around this case to to
9:06
bring audio to? Justice I, I thought they, they
9:10
obviously made mistakes in the case, but they were trying to
9:14
like show a timeline of what we spoke about earlier.
9:18
What normally happens in a domestic abuse case.
9:21
It goes on for years. The woman stays and eventually,
9:25
if the woman gets the courage to leave, the man in the marriage
9:31
or relationship will take retribution.
9:33
So they tried to show a timeline.
9:36
They they played the infamous 911 call when Nicole was being
9:41
attacked by OG at their home where she's screaming and it's
9:45
heroin and they were just trying to show that it was the
9:49
escalation. So it goes from this to that to
9:53
that, until it finally goes to murder.
9:56
OK, so they, I mean, they ultimately, as you said, they
9:59
were trying to paint a timeline of a man who starts to by
10:04
beating his partner and then eventually he ends up killing
10:08
her. But obviously there was mistakes
10:11
made. How How did the defence team
10:13
frame the trial as a racial, as racial injustice rather than a
10:17
murder? Case yeah, they framed it
10:20
through racial injustice that again, the key principle we
10:23
mentioned them in the last case pre key principal detective Mark
10:28
Furman. Mark Furman on the night of the
10:30
murder, he was a racist comeback.
10:34
Basically. He was like a highly odious
10:37
individual. Apparently he wanted to go to
10:41
South Africa during apartheid because he said you got to like
10:45
beat *** up for free or something or with impunity,
10:48
which he was doing in LAPD anyway.
10:52
So they, so they basically tried to frame it through the lens
10:56
that OJ has been railroaded, railroaded by a racist LA Police
11:03
Department. OK, and who was Furman?
11:06
Furman, as I just said, he was like the key principle on on the
11:12
OJ case. He found the glove and he was
11:14
called in to testify and he he testified the arraignment and
11:18
then he testified, much to the detriment of the prosecutors
11:24
during the natural case itself. One of the lead detectives on
11:28
the case. He was he was one of the first
11:30
detectives on the scene or the first detective on the scene.
11:33
He was the principal on the scene.
11:35
When there's a murder scene or like a crime scene, the first
11:38
detective against there is the principal on the scene.
11:41
So he is basically leading the investigation.
11:43
And I always remember from the the people versus OJ Simpson,
11:48
the Ryan Murphy show when the episode when Forman comes into
11:52
court, the prosecution hates him and and also the defence.
11:57
He's he's a most even OJ has been accused of murder.
12:02
Is is more likeable than Forman at this point in the So what
12:08
Like so Forman? Why was he such a detriment to
12:11
the the prosecution's case? Well, the defence got because of
12:16
Ferdinand's record and LAPD, the defence through their
12:20
investigations got hold of a tape of Ferdinand and he was
12:25
speaking to like a journalist or a screenwriter, like giving her
12:28
background for a script she was writing or an article she was
12:33
writing about the LAPD. And he basically just uses in
12:39
that, in that tape, he's your shoes.
12:41
He's so many racial epithets that epithets that it showed him
12:48
to be the racist scumbag that he was.
12:50
All I would say though, and I'm not speaking in defence of Mark
12:55
Furman and I'm not a lawyer. The judge in the case, the OJ
12:59
Simpson cage case, Judge Lance Ito, he shouldn't have liked
13:05
those tapes and as evidence because they were inadmissible.
13:09
I mean, yes, Mark Fuhrman is a scumbag, a racist scumbag, but
13:16
what does that have to do with the OJ Simpson case?
13:19
It's got nothing to do with the OJ Simpson case.
13:21
Like those tapes have absolutely nothing to do with the OJ
13:24
Simpson case. But isn't argument that Forman
13:27
is such a poisonous racist that he's willing to plant evidence
13:34
on? The successful black man who he
13:36
couldn't stand was dating this beautiful white woman.
13:40
Yeah. I mean, that argument's been
13:41
made. Furman has.
13:43
I mean, as we alluded to earlier, Furman was called out
13:46
to Rockingham one night and he was appalled that Nicole, like,
13:51
beautiful young blonde, was with OJ and not him.
13:56
And, well, I'm not saying not him, but but he was appalled.
14:00
He's just appalled by interracial relationships.
14:02
So I don't know what you would think of us with her white
14:05
wives, but he, he is a reformed. Character these days Mark Furman
14:10
I believe. Well, he might be reformed.
14:12
I don't know. I don't know if that ever leaves
14:14
you, but maybe, like, look at George Wallace.
14:16
He even he reformed from his, like racial.
14:21
Yeah, after getting shot. Yeah, after getting shot.
14:23
But this was years later. He reformed.
14:25
He said he didn't want to meet his maker, having all that
14:28
hatred in his heart and all those, like horrible things
14:32
behind them. But.
14:34
Oh no, no. Well, I I think it isn't the
14:37
argument Mark Furman made as those tapes are him reading the
14:41
script. He was playing a character in
14:43
this filmmaker. Well, this shouldn't film makers
14:47
well. Movie.
14:48
Yeah, well, that's what he claimed, but I mean, listen to
14:51
the tapes and if you think that's him playing a role, then
14:55
yeah, he must be an Oscar like worthy actor.
14:58
But he, he, yeah, I mean, The thing is, I'm not here to to
15:04
defend the LAPD, The LAPD at that time.
15:07
And who knows now? I don't know.
15:09
I don't live in LA, But at that time, they were a law unto
15:12
themselves. They were like a rogue
15:15
organisation who took every opportunity to demonise, to
15:21
prosecute, to victimise and to murder black people in the city
15:27
when they could. So I'm not defending LAPD in any
15:31
shape or form, but in OJ Simpson case it had absolutely.
15:36
OJ's arrest and charges and subsequent trial had nothing to
15:42
do with racism in my opinion. OK, but well the argument is, as
15:49
I said, firming planted evidence and to this day that that theory
15:54
persists. Well, that is insane.
15:56
And I think we we. Like, I didn't want to marry
16:02
marry. I didn't want to mention
16:03
Geoffrey Toobin considering what happened to him but but.
16:08
He wrote such. A great book.
16:09
Yeah, it's a great. We know what he did on a Zoom
16:11
call. Yeah, we know what he did.
16:13
I mean, like, we've all had boring Zoom calls, but I can't
16:16
say I've ever had boring. Not that boring.
16:19
Yeah, but he yeah, he wrote the people versus OJ Simpson.
16:23
I think the run of his life was called.
16:25
But he he says that if Furman is planning to frame OJ, what's the
16:33
one weakness or that that evening?
16:37
Well, the obvious weakness is he doesn't know where OJ is.
16:40
He doesn't know exactly. So OJ very loud, very popular,
16:45
very like well known person in LA, 6 foot 5 or so black guy,
16:53
200 and 4200 and 50 lbs. If he, if he's like out in a
16:59
restaurant at that time or out like at a movie or out somewhere
17:04
in public and he gets seen and Forman says like it was
17:08
definitely OJ as I when did the murders happen?
17:10
About 10:00 PM. Well, like that's nonsense
17:13
because I was with OJ or I saw OJ.
17:16
OJ at a restaurant, at a bar, at a nightclub.
17:19
So, yeah, I find that's a very good a good comparison or or a
17:24
good argument against Forman trying to free emoji Simpson.
17:29
But the the evidence was certainly mishandled, wasn't it?
17:33
It was mishandled. But I think in most cases the
17:37
police are like Keystone Cops or Mr. Bean when it comes to these
17:43
things. They're meant to be experts much
17:45
better now. Obviously DNA is much better
17:47
understood now. But I think Phil Vanatta, I
17:52
think he, he like put Nicole's body, he put a sheet over it or
17:58
something that had been in his car contaminated the scene, like
18:02
the blood got contaminated the blood evidence from the scene.
18:06
But again, I, I don't think it's like anything nefarious,
18:11
nefarious. It's just like mistake, human
18:14
mistakes. But couldn't the argument then
18:17
that Barry Sheikh makes again in this Made in America documentary
18:22
he makes argument not the prosecution didn't prove their
18:24
case. I mean, Barry, there was enough
18:29
reasonable doubt essentially is what he was saying.
18:33
If you believe that, but the the prosecution showed that it was
18:36
like 1, what was it? A one in three or 4 million
18:39
chance that that DNA found on the scene, the murder scene
18:43
found in OJ's car and found at the home in Rockingham.
18:47
It was a one in 4 million chance.
18:48
It was from someone other than OJ.
18:51
So what? Playing devil's advocate Barry
18:54
Sheck. Is.
18:55
Essentially said that evidence is worthless because of the
18:59
evidence. The DNA evidence is
19:00
contaminated. Yeah.
19:02
I mean, the The thing is nowadays there's been so many
19:05
exonerations through contaminated DNA evidence or
19:09
evidence that DNA evidence that wasn't like collected at the
19:13
time or couldn't be tested at the time.
19:15
We look at the Central Park 5 we I mentioned the West Memphis 3
19:20
the Green Green River Killer. He was caught through DNA
19:23
evidence. He probably, well he would have
19:26
thought he'd got away with all those murders in the 70s and 80s
19:29
because he didn't get caught until the early 2000s.
19:31
But then to get back to the OJ case, you could say that, yeah,
19:35
the DNA was useless or like should have been unusable in
19:39
court because it was contaminated.
19:42
But yeah, we all know that if O JS DNA is at the crime scene is
19:49
at Rockingham. If the Nicole and Ron's DNA is
19:55
on his person or in his property, then obviously it's
20:00
him who's committed the murder, yeah.
20:04
Well, I've seen some people argue that OJ could have went to
20:07
that restaurant and that's how he got like the restaurant where
20:10
Ron Goldman worked. But obviously that's a nonsense.
20:13
But let's just say for a second, OJ didn't commit the murder.
20:17
I mean, we all know he did. Who are those suspects?
20:20
The only suspect viable suspect would be O JS son Jason, who was
20:25
Nicole's stepson. So there's been some I mean, and
20:30
this is salacious, salacious. So I don't really want to get
20:33
into it, but there have been some like rumours.
20:36
Sorry, we can get into it. We can get into it, but we are a
20:39
history podcast. We we really should be dealing
20:41
in facts. But there there was there was a
20:45
salacious rumour that he was obsessed with his stepmom.
20:49
And we've all seen the pornography sites where like
20:52
stepmom and like son and stuff. So it is a thriving like genre
20:59
of the industry, shall we say. So people argued that he was
21:03
obsessed with Nicole and at that time he was training to be a
21:07
chef and Nicole, one night Nicole and the family were meant
21:12
to come and he had like prepared a special meal.
21:15
When all his colleagues had heard about it, he told them all
21:18
about it and apparently she didn't show up and he was
21:21
enraged by that. So obviously the DNA evidence
21:24
would match in most cases because he'll have the same DNA
21:29
as OJ. But.
21:31
I've seen a few people make that argument that OJ was on the
21:35
scene or he was called to the scene and he he helped whoever
21:40
the murderer was. Yeah, I heard escape and I or
21:43
the murderer was his son and he couldn't, He could not,
21:47
obviously couldn't come forward and say my son was a murderer.
21:50
Yeah, I've heard, heard that theory again.
21:54
It's pure purely speculative that Jason murdered Nicole and
22:01
then murdered Ron. Why would he have murdered Ron?
22:04
But then OJ came on the scene. Why did he happen just to be
22:09
there at that exact moment, or a few moments after, or 10 or 15
22:13
minutes after and helped his son escape?
22:16
Well, the the theory is that he received a phone call from his
22:21
son and he speed over, but obviously it's nonsense.
22:24
There's a an author called William Dear who, who wrote a, a
22:29
book with, well, presupposing that theory that Jason was the
22:35
killer and one of his biggest pieces of evidence was you don't
22:42
know. OK, well what was one of his
22:44
biggest pieces of evidence was that Jason was supposedly
22:48
working that night, but his time card was not stamped so back in.
22:54
I mean, I don't think we do that these days, but you would have
22:56
to. Stop your time card.
22:57
Well, when I worked in a cinema we had to do that, but that.
23:01
Theory that was eventually thrown out because it was proven
23:05
that there was plenty of times he was at work and he just
23:08
didn't stamp his time card. Yeah.
23:11
And I, I think we're going down like a rabbit hole.
23:14
We don't have to go down. Jason Samson did not murder
23:18
Nicole. No, I know, but we we have to be
23:21
fair and balanced here. That's one thing I I found with
23:25
the the P Diddy documentary. I think it's a great
23:28
documentary. It's very well made, but it is
23:31
not a balanced documentary. That that is the devil
23:34
essentially. And you haven't got anyone else
23:38
to balance out that fact. You don't have anyone else
23:43
speaking in defence of all we're saying he was, he did great
23:46
things for the community or he was a good person in this
23:49
situation. He's a devil.
23:51
For four hours straight. Is Daddy the devil is R Kelly?
23:54
Because from that that famous R Kelly interview when SNL did the
23:59
sketch that weekend and yeah, with GAIL Kane.
24:02
Yeah. And the guy who played R Kelly
24:04
says that like these people are painting me like the devil for
24:08
like 6 hours. And he said, even then, there's
24:11
no one have anything nice to say about the devil.
24:15
Well, I think it's a fairpoint if you're making a documentary,
24:17
or in our case, if we're making a podcast, yeah, you have to.
24:21
You have to. You can't just say you have to
24:25
have a bit of balance. So essentially that he was the
24:28
only order of potential suspect. But there was also the the
24:32
Russian mafia theory. Was it the Russian mafia?
24:37
Well, I don't know about that nonsense.
24:39
I was going to say there, there was a woman who came forward, a
24:42
witness, a white woman, middle age woman, I can't remember her
24:46
name. She came forward and said that
24:49
she had seen like two or three white men leaving the scene
24:55
around about where Nicole got murdered and that she was, she
25:00
came forward and she went to the police.
25:03
The police dismissed it. And I, I remember having a
25:08
discussion, shall we say, on X. We're so on about this.
25:11
And after OJ died and he he said this was proof that OJ was
25:17
framed or railroaded. And I think I said, like, this
25:20
woman was not credible at that time, Johnny Cochran.
25:24
If Big Birds had been going around saying, I saw like other
25:29
people in the vicinity of the murder scene, Johnny Cochran
25:32
would have been willing to put Big Bird on the stand.
25:34
So the fact they didn't put this woman on the stand would suggest
25:37
to me that her story was not credible.
25:41
And there was several infamous moments from the child.
25:45
Can we speak about those? Yeah, We, we've got the moment
25:48
with the the Bruno Maglani. What is it?
25:51
Bruno Magli? Bruno Magli shares, which were
25:55
shares that only, I think only three or 400 had been made in
26:00
the US And OG always denied having the issues.
26:03
But the prosecution proved not only did he own the shares, but
26:07
there was a footprint, same size, same match of sure, at the
26:11
crime scene. But obviously the most infamous
26:15
moment in the trial was the the glove moment when OJ tried on
26:21
the the glove that was found at at Rockingham, I assume.
26:25
Yeah. So basically OJ was was was
26:30
asked to try on, much to the surprise of Marcia Clark, who
26:34
was the head prosecutor, like the lead prosecutor.
26:38
Yeah, lead prosecutor. So by Christopher Durden, he
26:42
asked. And if you go back and watch the
26:44
watch the tape, watch the video from the time, look at Marcia
26:48
Clark's reaction when he asked OJ to put on the the glove that
26:53
the murderer murderer apparently allegedly wore.
26:57
So he asked them to put it on and like the glove did not fit
27:03
his hands. But again, I mean, we've not
27:05
really went into Lance Hito, but he he was a presiding judge over
27:10
the case and one of the defence team said that that should not
27:16
have been done in front of the jury.
27:19
Like OG being made to try on the gloves, said he should have been
27:22
took in the back to George George's quarters and the
27:27
bailiff should have put the glove on for him.
27:29
Like, it shouldn't have been took out the bag as well because
27:31
they took it out the evidence bag.
27:33
But anyway, like, we don't want to go into like, Lance Hito's
27:37
handling of the case in any great detail.
27:40
If he wanted to be famous, surely that's why he's allowed
27:42
cameras into that courtroom. Yeah.
27:44
The cameras should never been allowed into the courtroom.
27:46
It was already a meteor circus. So by allowing, and again, that
27:50
is at the discretion of the judge.
27:52
No one has told the judge as the trial of the century, as they
27:56
called it, you need to allow cameras in your courtroom.
28:00
He wanted them in the courtroom and it just made like a a
28:04
spectacle, A dire spectacle, even more dire because we got to
28:09
see every single moment of what was going on when it should have
28:13
been, it shouldn't have been televised.
28:16
But isn't that isn't an argument there.
28:18
Then we felt that footage from the courtroom.
28:21
We're probably not talking about this case all these years later.
28:25
That's a good point. Yeah, we're probably not talking
28:27
about the case because I mean, look at the.
28:31
Luigi case that's going on just now, the guy who allegedly shot
28:35
the CEO, the health CEO in New York.
28:38
I mean, I'm sure people would love to have that televised.
28:42
But again, it just brings a certain aspect, a certain type
28:46
of people to court and a certain like I don't want to say biases,
28:51
but for me that the courtroom procedure is more, is more, is
28:58
more pure when there's not cameras in there.
29:00
That's the USG Mangione, I believe, if I'm pronouncing that
29:05
correct. And obviously he shot Cao of a
29:10
healthcare company or a pharmaceutical company.
29:13
Yeah, But in terms of social media, you can see the old
29:18
social media being around the Journal Jays trial.
29:21
You can see how defensive and polarising these what types of
29:26
crimes are yes, you absolutely can, especially if the the
29:30
suspect in O JS case. He is a famous, good looking,
29:34
charismatic man, a high achiever and Mangione is well, he he has
29:43
groupies. He's seen as a good looking man
29:45
and a lot of people weren't freed because he killed a
29:48
pharmaceutical CEO. But that that's a digression.
29:51
But yeah, why was it glove? I mean, obviously it's been
29:55
talked about to death and it will continue to be talked about
29:58
and it's iconic moment from that trial or any trial or I would
30:04
say an iconic moment in culture, popular culture in the sense
30:08
it's been, you've seen films or what you've seen TV shows about
30:12
it. Why was it such a significant
30:15
moment and a blow to the defence?
30:18
It was just prosecution to the prosecution.
30:20
It was a blow because this has been touted as the glove the
30:26
murderer wore. There's like hair and fibres on
30:29
it, there's blood on it. So the fact that it didn't fit
30:32
OJ or he didn't make it fit his hand, shall we say that is a
30:39
body blow to the prosecution because particularly obviously
30:43
the famous line, Johnny Cochran and the summation, if the glove
30:48
does not fit, you must acquit. So that is one of the like
30:52
statements or like headlines from the trial.
30:55
So it's just a blow because there's no doubt that Harry
30:58
killed Nicole and Ron had that glove on when he did it.
31:03
Yeah, as I said at the time when I was following the case as 11
31:06
and 12 year old, I did think that means he's innocent because
31:10
in an 11 and 12 year old's mind, it's that simple that that glove
31:14
was worn by the murderer and it didn't fit all Jane Bock.
31:17
Well, considering how the the how the jury behaved, I'd say
31:22
maybe there were a few 11 and 12 year olds on that jury.
31:25
Should we get into the jury a little bit then?
31:27
Yeah, yeah, for me, the jury, What I mean, I'm trying to be
31:33
succinct with my words here, but they were fucking idiots.
31:37
They were basically morons. Very succinct, very succinct.
31:41
They were basically morons and they were essentially an
31:45
embarrassment because they, I mean, I, I don't agree with one
31:50
of the DAS who said assessing DAS who said they don't
31:54
understand the case, they don't understand the evidence.
31:58
I don't agree with that. They basically were starstruck
32:02
by OJ. They all the things that were
32:05
going on in LA in the previous years.
32:08
This basically influenced the jury.
32:11
And as you said, the defence played, played the race card and
32:16
it worked to stun in effect, because OJ could not be more
32:20
guilty. And I mean, you could argue that
32:24
there's never been a greater miscarriage of justice in the US
32:28
legal system than OJ Samson being acquitted.
32:33
Well, yeah, that there's an argument there, but there are
32:36
other cases where there were stunning miscarriages of
32:40
justice. Others, the Scotsborough boys.
32:43
Leo Frank There's many cases. There's the Salem Witch trials.
32:51
Absolutely. And I'm not saying they're not,
32:53
but with all the evidence against them, with everything
32:55
stacked up against them, the fact that that jury came back
33:00
and acquitted them as one of the most despicable things I've
33:05
seen. Well, well, who's that?
33:09
Me. Who's standing next to you?
33:12
OJ, Need I say anything more? What that's from the people
33:16
versus OJ Simpson? Well, not the jurors are getting
33:20
are getting taken out. And there's one guy who
33:22
obviously you can't meet the suspect for the case at any
33:26
time. And he he met him in a
33:27
restaurant when he worked in a restaurant and really and the
33:30
judge showed them a photo and he said, who is that?
33:31
And he's like, that's me. Oh yeah, I stand there next to
33:35
you. That's all cheap.
33:35
Yeah, I remember. Should I say?
33:37
Need I say anything? More.
33:38
I was just like, well, we obviously should not be on this
33:41
case. And I mean in defence of the
33:44
jury, I mean they were this case run a very long time.
33:50
It would ask this, it would, it would test the stamina of pretty
33:56
much anyone. So it was a long time and they
33:59
were, they were away from the families, they were sequestered.
34:03
A tough gig for anyone. They, they were, I mean, no,
34:05
they would have been allowed to speak to their families.
34:07
They were just not allowed to discuss the case.
34:10
Yeah, of course, but I mean they're essentially trapped in a
34:13
hotel and they're going from the hotel to the courtroom, the
34:16
courtroom. I mean there is a the well
34:19
that's an order. And from this moment from the
34:22
the trial case where they go to the the murder site and but then
34:26
the defence and says, well, we need to go to Rockingham then.
34:29
And, and, and one of the defence lawyers, I forget his name, but
34:35
he he said, OK, take down these photos of all these white people
34:39
on the walls because OG there's not one black person on these
34:43
walls apart. It's just just like your house.
34:46
There's no, there's not one black person on the walls.
34:49
It's all white people. Perfect.
34:50
Yeah. But that's an infamous moment
34:53
because Marcia Clark argued why the hell do we have to go to
34:56
Rockingham? But what's that got to do with.
34:59
Yeah, Lance Ito was, I mean, he he handled the case as a judge.
35:05
Like, purely very poorly. Well, back to the jury, though,
35:10
yeah. OK, on October 4th, 1995, the
35:15
jury comes back with their verdict.
35:17
And what is their verdict? It's it's not guilty on all
35:22
counts. And both murders for Mark Furman
35:24
or for Mark Furman? Was Mark Furman charged with
35:28
murdering Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman?
35:30
No, no, OJ is acquitted. Of both murders.
35:36
And. The jury deliberated for all
35:40
four hours, which is, is crazy. Yeah, they they deliberate.
35:44
I mean the triode went on for over a year and these ideas are
35:49
like they've got their. I mean it's obviously a pre
35:51
arranged verdict ready to go. Yeah, but it wasn't the.
35:56
I have a few of the jurors, at least one of them are good.
35:58
They just wanted to go home at that point.
36:00
Yeah, yeah, they they just wanted to go home.
36:02
So. But I'm sure they could have at
36:04
least. Stretched out to a week or so
36:06
and. I mean, you may not, you may not
36:09
agree with this, but you can understand a little, a little
36:13
that one of the jurors said this was for Rodney King and this was
36:17
for Latasha Harwins and the riots.
36:20
Yeah, but I mean, you're making OJ like the saviour or the
36:24
embodiment of the black civil rights movement.
36:27
This guy didn't even see himself as black.
36:31
He didn't until it was convenient to do so.
36:33
He didn't even advance that he was black.
36:37
Or he didn't even express anything about being black.
36:41
I'm not black. I'm old Jay.
36:42
Yeah, I'm not black emoji. But what are all these *** doing
36:45
in Brentwood? Yeah, What were they doing in
36:48
Brentwood? But all I'll say is, and I
36:51
understand what you're saying, the Rodney King verdict was
36:55
despicable. The Latasha Harlan's verdict was
37:00
despicable. But that doesn't mean that, I
37:03
mean, it's not a game of soccer. You're not trying to even a
37:07
score or get back at anyone because the only people you're
37:11
getting back at are the Brown and Goldman families.
37:16
And all I would say is, and I, I alluded to this earlier, I think
37:21
there's a certain section of, and obviously I'm part of the
37:25
black community. There's a certain section of the
37:27
black community who seem to think everyone's a conspiracy, a
37:31
racial conspiracy or a conspiracy.
37:33
Like recently or going further back, we had the whole Michael
37:37
Jackson thing. Apparently Michael Jackson was
37:40
accused of sexually molesting Geordie Chandler because Michael
37:46
Jackson was trying to buy half of Sony.
37:49
So the head of Sony said we need to get that fucking *** He's
37:53
going to buy this record company.
37:55
Someone allegedly, allegedly plan a story in the media that
38:00
Michael Jackson, even though Michael Jackson had said himself
38:05
he slept the children of his own volition while slept in the same
38:09
bed, slept. Yeah, slept in the same bed.
38:11
So it's not like those allegations came from nowhere.
38:14
More recently, we've had the Jonathan Majors thing where
38:17
apparently Jonathan Majors and Michael B Jordan were about to
38:21
acquire, like, a film studio. So like allegations come out
38:26
that Jonathan Majors has attacked his partner, things
38:30
like that, like P Diddy. P Diddy, There's been a lot of
38:33
support in the black community. R Kelly.
38:36
So I think there's this belief in the black community and this
38:40
love for certain basically as my wife described it like bad boys.
38:46
She I wish she didn't say that about the black community.
38:48
I'm saying that, but the black community like embraced OJ
38:52
thought that he's being like wronged by this admittedly
38:57
racist police force, admittedly racist system.
39:02
And I think it's a weakness in certain parts of the black
39:06
community that they see things as a racial conspiracy when like
39:12
no, like this guy, like I believe Michael Jackson was
39:16
guilty or is guilty. I believe that Jonathan Majors
39:20
beat the of his partner and did it more than once.
39:23
But that night he got caught on camera.
39:25
I believe that P Daddy was doing all these things that he
39:28
allegedly did, and I believe that OJ brutally and mercifully
39:34
killed and mercilessly killed his wife and her lover or friend
39:42
or whatever. So it had nothing to do but.
39:45
I would give some pushback on that.
39:46
I don't think it's just the the black community.
39:50
I think we live in conspiracy, conspiracy LED times that we
39:55
live in a. There, there's a lot of.
39:56
Conspiritual mindsets out there, we, I mean, it's not just, it's
40:01
not just exclusive to the black community.
40:03
It's something that well pervades all cultures and all
40:09
colours and all types of people. There's, it's not just that,
40:13
it's not something that. Is exclusive to the black
40:17
community. I agree.
40:18
I mean, look at Luigi. I am exactly.
40:21
We talked about. Luigi Yes, of course.
40:23
I'm just saying that in these cases, P Daddy, OJ, Michael
40:28
Jackson, Jonathan Majors I mean, from what I've seen on social
40:33
media, there is like that inherent defence of these men,
40:39
like even Bill Cosby, there's this like Cosby, richest man,
40:45
certainly richest black man in America.
40:47
So that's why he wasn't the richest black man, because.
40:51
Doctor Dre or taught even Pavtadi or Jay-Z were.
40:55
Richard, good point. It's not it's not something that
40:59
is exclusive to the black unity. So I think that's an unfair
41:02
comment. You should retract.
41:04
OK, You don't have to retract it.
41:06
I'm joking, but I'm not defending the jurors in OJ case.
41:09
But it's an emotive case. Emotions are running high.
41:12
Look at the Larry Nasser case, the Doctor Who sexually abused
41:16
hundreds of those athletes. And in that case, the judge.
41:23
Judge has to be impartial, right?
41:25
But the judge definitely was not impartial.
41:27
What did she say? I'm saying I just send your
41:29
death warrant. And she took.
41:30
Great relishing and telling him that, but that's not her role.
41:35
So emotions can run high in those types of cases.
41:39
It's been, it's been around 3 years since the riots and well,
41:42
listen to you mean that, that when we get to the, the verdict,
41:45
when we get to the trial, yeah. And so these people are from
41:50
that community, they, they, they understand the wrongs that,
41:56
well, they, they're living the wrongs they're, they're living
41:59
the abuses of power that from the LAPD and from racial
42:03
institutions. So yes, yes.
42:06
And I agree with all that. I absolutely agree with all
42:09
that. Like I, I faced racial
42:11
oppression or racial abuse for most of my life.
42:15
So I'm not downplaying that. I'm just saying if you're on a
42:18
jury. And someone's been accused of
42:20
murder, regardless of who he is. You can't bring those biases or
42:25
prejudices in to your thinking when looking at the case.
42:30
You need to be removed from that.
42:32
You need to separate, separate yourself from that.
42:35
You need to look at Nicole as a battered wife who was absolutely
42:40
brutalised by this guy. And like one, one of the things
42:44
I remember having a debate with a guy online was like he said,
42:48
oh, like OJ may have beat her, but Nicole started it.
42:51
Nicole's like 90 lbs. Like, my, my wife is quite
42:56
fierce. She's 110 lbs.
42:58
If she and I ever started throwing hands, I'm knocking her
43:01
on her ass. I think you'll be throwing.
43:06
Yeah, she'll be wondering where I've been.
43:08
But I'm just saying that, like, there.
43:10
There are. Yeah.
43:11
To go back to what you said, maybe it's not exclusively.
43:17
Exclusive to the black community, it's a societal
43:20
thing. We have conspirator thinking.
43:22
Yeah. And and to the with social
43:25
media, it spreads like wildfire. So I think we just live in a an
43:29
era of conspirator thinking. I mean.
43:31
Yeah, I I agree. I mean, look at Eva and Tyler
43:34
Robinson who allegedly shot Charlie Kirk.
43:37
And yeah, there is inconsistency as to the case.
43:41
As we haven't heard the case yet, so that's the fair.
43:43
No, no, I mean to the evidence, like how they gathered the
43:46
evidence, how like apparently things he did, how did he get up
43:51
and like how did he shoot him and get away and stuff like
43:53
that. But he he shot him.
43:57
I mean, it's just they're just picking out this random bastard.
44:02
And I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but they're obviously,
44:06
and I'm not saying like you should be accepting everything
44:10
at face value that the Trump Justice Department tells you.
44:14
But obviously they're not just randomly selected in this guy as
44:18
the killer. And if they had, he's in court,
44:22
he's going to be screaming like he's being railroaded.
44:24
He's going to, he's not even going to go to trial because
44:27
there'll be no evidence against them.
44:30
I would make the argument as well.
44:31
People defend their heroes. So OJ was a hero to many in the
44:35
black community. Bill Cosby, Michael Jackson,
44:39
Jonathan Majors. There's Jonathan Majors.
44:42
I saw an interview with him and you most people would probably
44:47
disagree with us. I think I do.
44:48
But he made the argument like should he not be allowed to have
44:52
a livelihood after, you know, he's he's been punished, he's
44:57
he's been ostracised. Should he not?
45:00
But I must say you should. Or you should, if you're saying
45:03
you should like if the average person did that and it goes on a
45:07
criminal record and they go and try and get a job, a decent job
45:11
in in any like. Line of work, they're going to
45:15
not get the job because they need to declare that they're a
45:19
criminal and what they've done. So they're not going to get
45:22
anything but menial jobs. But he is not He works in show
45:26
business, he works in film. There's a lot of people who've
45:29
done a lot of yeah, of course I'm not defending and I'm not
45:33
defending them, but I'm just saying that's his argument and
45:36
I'm just saying people do defend their heroes.
45:38
So with OJ, there will be people who who defend them even though
45:42
they're just blinded by the fact that they hero worship the guy
45:46
or they dead hero worship the guy.
45:48
But anyway, let's get back to the case.
45:50
So the jury deliberates for four hours.
45:53
They come back, and if they're not guilty, what is the
45:57
immediate reaction to that verdict in America and across
45:59
the world? Well, I think the best like
46:02
interview I ever saw on it was from a journalist.
46:04
They just said the OJ Simpson trial showed America at its
46:08
absolute worst because of the racial divide.
46:12
So mainly in the black community, his acquittal was
46:16
celebrated. And in the white community, it
46:19
was they were distraught that OJ had been acquitted.
46:23
And again, it goes right back to the start of the episode when
46:27
you said OJ crossed the racial divide.
46:30
Well, there were certainly a racial divide during and after
46:34
that trial and after the verdict.
46:36
So, yeah, OJ after that became a pariah.
46:42
You find it hard to get any like media jobs.
46:45
He basically was an outcast in society.
46:49
And it's funny because when I was watching OJ Made in America,
46:54
which we mentioned earlier, there were certain parts where
46:58
you, and maybe this is a weakness of being like a
47:02
progressive and being on the political left, that there were
47:06
points where I felt sorry for him where he just he couldn't
47:09
even go out in public to get a meal without being heckled.
47:13
But then you think back to, well, why is he in this
47:17
situation? And why is he now a pariah and
47:21
what he did to become a pariah and why there shouldn't be
47:24
sympathy there? But as I said, we're humans.
47:27
There were some sympathy there. Like, like I think a member, was
47:32
it GQ or Esquire, she like that a massive profile of OG and she
47:38
said she post trial and she said she couldn't help but feel sorry
47:42
for him. And she said she felt some of
47:45
the treatment was absolutely rooted in in racism.
47:49
Yeah, maybe going back to the whole idea where you're saying
47:52
about Jonathan, obviously it's a completely different crime, but
47:55
like, should I be given another chance?
47:57
And there will be like. I'm not saying OJ should be
48:00
given an order, shouldn't be given another chance.
48:03
I mean, he committed a. Brutal murder.
48:06
Well, but there's also the argument that I think she made
48:10
and OJ made that like, I've been acquitted.
48:13
I mean, you need to let me know, lead my life.
48:16
And I might not go back to how it was before, but I've been.
48:19
I don't agree with that, but some people may make that
48:22
argument. Yeah, I don't agree with that.
48:25
I don't agree with that. I mean, obviously not.
48:27
He's he. Whatever happened to him
48:31
afterwards, he got everything that was coming to him.
48:34
Yeah, he deserved John, but so OJ, obviously he's a prior, he's
48:40
ostracised. He's, I mean, he's.
48:43
Obviously unemployable at this point.
48:46
No, but he he still had his still had his NFL like pension.
48:52
He had a few. Million on the bank as.
48:54
Well, I mean, we're not going to go enter, but the Goldmans,
48:59
Ron's family won a several case against OJ the year after and he
49:02
was meant to pay them, what was it like $39 million?
49:05
Was it 33? And they, they never, I don't
49:08
think they saw a penny on that so well.
49:11
Yeah, they don't see a penny of it.
49:13
And I think his NFL pitch is not that matters.
49:16
Was protected. They couldn't touch that but.
49:18
Which I kind of agree with. I mean, I kind of agree with
49:21
what was it like a million, 2 million a year he got from the
49:23
NFL? Well, then I don't know the
49:26
figure, but then OG obviously he goes to commits a robbery in
49:30
2008 and he ends up what, serving 16 years in prison or
49:34
something? Mental.
49:35
Yeah. I mean, it was obviously
49:37
excessive. I mean, you can when you're
49:40
like, trying a case you can't bring in evidence from or like
49:45
even mention of. So when he's getting prosecuted
49:48
in Las Vegas for that robbery, and like when I heard about that
49:52
at the time, the way it signed, it was like OJ went into like a
49:56
pawn dealership who had all his memorabilia without gun and like
50:01
robbed the police. That's not what happened at all.
50:04
He, like got the people who had the memorabilia.
50:07
He took them to his hotel room. He held them at gunpoint.
50:10
No one was obviously going to get shot, but it's still a
50:13
crime. But obviously 16 years for
50:15
something like that is excessive.
50:17
But yeah, he went to. Prison.
50:19
Well, the same lawyer I mentioned earlier, he says an
50:24
OJ. Made in America, the punishment
50:26
should have been about 3-4 years.
50:28
Yeah, it should have been like, ordinarily it would have been.
50:31
And remember, he'd been charged with a crime before.
50:33
He'd never been like, convicted of a crime.
50:36
Yeah, of course. But again, that's what I
50:38
mentioned about emotions run high in these things.
50:42
People are not always impartial, of course, of course.
50:45
When he went to prison, he got out.
50:48
During COVID he became something of Internet or social media.
50:54
Well I don't want to say sensation, but he used to like
50:57
do we golf videos and stuff? In fantasy football.
51:01
Did he do fantasy football? Yeah, well.
51:03
American football, American football, you know, he used to
51:05
do fantasy football and give his takes on players.
51:08
And so it's like in The Sopranos when, like when Johnny Stark,
51:12
who's the head of a New York family, Mafia family, goes to
51:15
prison. How far that was The Simpsons,
51:18
that's The Sopranos. And he's taken some advice from
51:23
from a doctor because Johnny Sack has contracted cancer and
51:26
he's been told he's got six months to deliver or something.
51:29
And this doctor is telling him, actually, that's nonsense.
51:31
You've got at least a year, a year and a half and.
51:34
And Johnny Sack's brother-in-law comes to visit him and he says
51:39
you're taking advice from a double murderer or a triple
51:42
murderer, like, so there's doctors in prison for murder.
51:45
And he said he says, yeah, but you still adopt her.
51:48
And Johnny Sacks further replies, yeah, it doesn't makes
51:51
OJ any less of a running back, does he?
51:54
So OJ obviously understood American football when he was
51:58
obviously a legend of the game. And and also we'll we'll say
52:02
that he he definitely enjoyed his twilight years.
52:05
And OJ himself died of cancer. Yeah, he did.
52:08
And I think people said he was a liar to them because he he
52:13
posted a video saying he's absolutely fine like.
52:17
He was dead. So looking back at what lessons
52:20
does the case told you something case teachers about celebrity
52:23
justice in the in the media in America today.
52:27
I I would say all I mean what it taught me is that don't worship
52:33
anyone. Don't celebrity worship anyone.
52:36
Like you know me, like my ex account is mainly film reviewers
52:41
and I love film and I love music and I love football, but I don't
52:47
worship anyone because at the end of the day, maybe not to
52:52
such an extreme case as OJ. They'll let you down.
52:55
Like you meet your hero. They'll be an arsenal.
52:58
Someone will come out about your hero.
52:59
Like recently I will mention the guy, you probably know how it
53:04
is. There was a filmmaker, he's
53:06
making a lot of like ridiculous comments about other actors,
53:10
other directors, and some people say that he's talking like that
53:15
because the net is closing in on him and he knows it's closing in
53:18
Tarantino. You're not meant to mention him.
53:20
We'll get Sir Jesus Christ, what is he supposedly have done?
53:25
Well, I mean, he there were some allegations during the Me Too
53:28
movement which never gained any traction.
53:31
I don't know why, I don't know why, but there were allegations
53:35
like from some actors about him, maybe not criminal behaviour,
53:39
but behaviour that could have went that way anyway.
53:44
We don't want to get into that. But that, that's all I would
53:46
say. The media never fully trust the
53:50
media because they've all got an agenda.
53:53
Like even as I said, I'm progressive or even left wing
53:57
media, they're only going to tell you what they want you to
54:00
hear. One side of the story, one side
54:02
of the story. Right wing media as well,
54:05
Central media like CNNMMSNBC, they're only going to tell you
54:11
one side of the story. So just be, I'd say just be an
54:17
analytical thinker, Don't accept everything you hear and be a
54:21
conspiracy theorist, be a conspiracy theorist.
54:23
And also obviously OJ, the lessons learned were what I
54:29
alluded to earlier, that the racial divide in America is
54:33
still there and it's still is not a divide, it's a chasm.
54:37
So that's my lessons from the case.
54:41
Yeah, but I mean, maybe, right? Rightfully so.
54:46
It's a chasm. If you look at the 300 years of
54:50
slavery, the transatlantic slave trade, you look at Jim Crow, you
54:55
look at the civil rights. We'll, we'll definitely, we'll
54:57
definitely get into the transatlantic slave trade for
55:00
sure. That's one of my specialities,
55:04
something I I majored in. So we can certainly get into
55:08
that. Not in this episode, not in this
55:10
episode, 'cause I mean, we've, we've run the clock down, as
55:15
Bruce Springsteen says in Wrecking Ball, which is about
55:18
NFL. Is there anything?
55:20
Else to to say about OJ Simpson or or this case, I would just
55:25
say about OJ Simpson. I still can watch The Naked Gun
55:29
and enjoy it, but obviously you'll always have in your head
55:32
this guy killed his wife and her her friend in media.
55:38
Like after the whole me too thing.
55:40
There are a lot of guys like that, like James Franco, really
55:43
like him as an actor, but when you watch his films, you always
55:47
have the thing in the back of your head.
55:49
This guy's a scumbag Kevin Spacey.
55:51
Same thing when I listen to Michael Jackson songs.
55:54
Not that I'm a huge fan. I think, well, this guy either
55:57
did that or did this. But this guy maybe is not like
56:02
someone who you should be worshipping so.
56:06
My closing thoughts on this is OJ.
56:07
He got acquitted. He walked out of the court of
56:12
Three man. Was it reasonable doubt.
56:14
Was it payback for Rodney King? Latasha Harwins for the riots?
56:19
Was it simply just celebrity privilege?
56:23
And it was the moment we realised this.
56:25
The system works exactly the way it's supposed to depending on
56:28
who you are, how much money you have and who's watching.
56:32
The juice was loose related crime, but his his his later
56:40
years were spent in relative comfort and he never faced
56:44
justice for those two murders. I think it was a perfect
56:48
encapsulation of celebrity, race and privilege.
56:54
Do you want to come back in on that?
56:56
All I would say is. To point this out like we're not
57:01
lawyers and that should be obvious from this episode.
57:04
I don't think it's obvious. It's not obvious.
57:07
You're like Jim Carrey and the cable.
57:11
Guy like you've been watching a lot of court time TVI have been
57:14
watching a lot of court time. TV.
57:16
So all I would say is like my lawyer will shut you down.
57:21
You've got a lawyer you, but you don't have a credit card.
57:24
All I would say is, yeah, we're not lawyers.
57:26
So if we've got anything wrong legally or in legal speaker
57:33
legal dynamics, let us know. Don't sue us though.
57:36
Don't sue us. And remember, this is primarily
57:39
a history podcast and this that will touch on true crime now and
57:44
again. So we hope you have enjoyed this
57:46
episode. Joseph, do you want to take us
57:49
out? Yeah.
57:50
Thank you. For listening and TuneIn to the
57:53
next episode, what that will be, we are not sure.
57:58
What you'll find out next week. Yeah, you'll find out next week.
58:01
Thank you for listening. Thank you.
58:02
Bye, bye, bye. The Twin History podcast is a
58:09
Lost Cosmonauts. Production produced by me Virag
58:13
Estertoud. Additional producers are Dale
58:17
McGoldrick, Johnny McCann and Joe McCann.
58:20
Written by Johnny McCann and Joe McCann, original music and score
58:26
by Kevin McLeod. The podcast is available
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58:38
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