Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Murder by SLEEPWALKING!

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Murder by SLEEPWALKING! · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Murder requires specific intent. It
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: can be implied or specific, but there must be intent
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: to do the act. But what about a recent spate
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: of murders committed while the killer is sound asleep, And
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: believe it or not, some jurdars are actually buying it.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Am I understanding this? A
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: jury actually equits someone of murder because they claim that
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: they slept. Walk through the entire or deal. First of all,
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: take a listen to this. They A'm not on the
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: one with her. There's something going on with a young
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: boy and my son in law. We need help. We
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: need amberance and police please, Okay, we'll have a dearly emergency.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: There's a young boy and my grandson four years old.
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  Speaker 1: We can't wake him up. The father is locked up
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  Speaker 1: in a room. We don't know what's going on. Everybody's screaming. Wow,
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  Speaker 1: that must be some sound sleeper because everybody is screaming
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: and daddy's still asleep. Listen to a little bit more
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: of that nine Monthe call and tell me what's going on.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: I don't know. My daughter's up there screaming. So her
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: husband is in a in his study. He can't. He
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: won't come out. And now there's a young boy, his son,
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  Speaker 1: four years old. We can't wake him up. Okay, and
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on. We need an emergency
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: as a factist possible, yes down that follows me. Okay,
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: I will have information for you. Someone else is going
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: to get him on the way. Okay, is it your grandson?
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: My grandson is four years old. My daughter is trying
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: to break into a door. We don't know if he's
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: alive or not alive. Well, I can answer that much.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: He's dead. The four year old little boy is dad.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: You can hear screaming and wailing in the background. With
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: me an all star panel to break you down and
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  Speaker 1: put it back together again. But first of all, let
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  Speaker 1: me ask Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute,
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: joining US forensics expert. The defense says, daddy's asleep. Hold on, Cheryl,
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: Satellite down Christy, Missouri with me Emmy Award winning investigative
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  Speaker 1: reporter Christie. Is that correct? Well, you know, if you'd
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: like to believe the defense team, that's what they're claiming,
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: sleep walking, right, But these are some tragic tales to
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  Speaker 1: this evening in fact, it's the daughter Alexa has had
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: to fight her father off. This is just almost too
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: much for me to take in. Guys, let me finish
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: introducing our panel with me Doctor Mark R. Pressman, Sleep
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  Speaker 1: and Scientific Evidence specialist Pressman Sleep and Science Forensics dot
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  Speaker 1: com and author of Sleepwalking, Criminal Behavior and Reliable Scientific
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: Evidence and FYI. He's an expert on many of these
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: sleepwalking cases. James Shellnut twenty seven years on law Enforcement,
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Police Force, now Lawyer. You can find him at Shelna
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: Lawfirm dot com. Doctor jen Mann therapist host on VH one.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: She's the host of Doctor Jen Show on series x
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: SIM She's an author of The Relationship Fix. Wow. I
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: don't have enough paper to give you her resume, but
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: doctor jen Man Therapist is joining us, as I said earlier.
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  Speaker 1: Director of the Cold Case Research Institute let me know
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  Speaker 1: when her satellite issue it is up. You missed your
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: first question, Cheryl, if you were in a sleep Cheryl McCollum,
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  Speaker 1: Director of the Cold Case Research Institute and forensics expert
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: doctor Tim Gallagher. I can't wait to hear what he's
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: got to say about this. He's a medical examiner for
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: the entire state of Florida, and you can find him
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  Speaker 1: at pathcaremed dot com. And I already went to hire
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Emmy Award winner investigative reporter Christy Missouri, President of Successful
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: Strategies PR and Crisis Communications, And I would call this
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  Speaker 1: a crisis. Cheryl McCollum, I don't know if you could
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: hear us. We could not hear you. But I just
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: played part of a nine one one call, and just
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  Speaker 1: for you, Cheryl, I'm gonna play it again. Take a
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: listen to this nine one one call. I'm not in
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  Speaker 1: a one weekday. There's something going on with a young
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  Speaker 1: boy and my son in law. We need help. We
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: need ambulance and police. Please, okay, we'll have a dearly emergency.
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  Speaker 1: Did a young boy and my grandchon all years old.
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  Speaker 1: We can't wake him up. The father is rocked up
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  Speaker 1: a room. We don't know what's going on. Everybody's screaming.
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  Speaker 1: And more than I'm only on call, Please chack and
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  Speaker 1: tell me what's going on. I don't know. My daughter's
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  Speaker 1: up there screaming. So her husband is in a in
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  Speaker 1: his a study. He can't he won't come out. And
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  Speaker 1: now there's a young boy, his son four years old.
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  Speaker 1: We can't wake him up, okay, and I don't know
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  Speaker 1: what's going on. We need emergency as fast as possible. Yes,
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  Speaker 1: down that hollow is me Okay, I will have information
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  Speaker 1: for you. Someone else is going to get him on
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  Speaker 1: the way. Okay, sir, How old is your Is this
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  Speaker 1: your grandson? My grandson is four years old. My daughter's
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  Speaker 1: trying to break into a girl. We don't know if
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  Speaker 1: he's alive or not alive. Stay on the phone. Are
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: you kidding me? Uh, Cheryl mccollumy, he needs to go
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: break that door down. You hear screaming and wailing in
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: the background. Cheryl McCollum. I'm gonna go to Christy, Missouri
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: in just a moment for all the facts. But are
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  Speaker 1: you buying this? Are you actually buying this that the
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  Speaker 1: peer is asleep? He needs to break the door down,
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: And no, I don't believe he's asleep. You can hear
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  Speaker 1: everybody in that house screaming and having a fit and
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  Speaker 1: calling for more help, and he's going to sleep through it.
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  Speaker 1: I don't buy it. I mean, Cheryl, as you know,
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  Speaker 1: I have slept walked, I sleep talk, I sleep walk,
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  Speaker 1: But it doesn't take a lot to wake me up.
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  Speaker 1: I don't get very far. It's my point. I just
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  Speaker 1: find it very difficult to believe you can go in
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  Speaker 1: a room, lock the door, murder your four year old
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  Speaker 1: child while everybody's still trying to bam the door down
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  Speaker 1: and screaming, and you sleep through it all. To Christy Missourich,
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  Speaker 1: investigative reporter and president of Successful Strategies PR in Crisis Communications,
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  Speaker 1: let me just start with this case. Start at the beginning,
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  Speaker 1: pick it up at the nine on one call. What happened?
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  Speaker 1: So it all starts with the daughter blasting into the
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  Speaker 1: peri the bedroom, seeing you know, mommy, hello hall wa
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: wait how old is the daughter? Wait a minute, wait
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  Speaker 1: a minute? How old is the daughter? Mid teens? Right,
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  Speaker 1: he has two older children and a tenure. Okay, So
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: the team girl blast in into her parents' bedroom. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: seeing mommy, help us, help us. Daddy's trying to hurt us.
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  Speaker 1: She tells police that her dad came into her room
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  Speaker 1: that night wearing a Halloween mask. No no, no, no,
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  Speaker 1: wait wait wait wait yes, stop everything. Did you hear that, Jackie?
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  Speaker 1: Did you hear that? Okay? Wearing a Halloween mask? It
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  Speaker 1: will be a cold day in h double l that
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  Speaker 1: I believe this guy slept through finding a Halloween mask.
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  Speaker 1: First of all, right, there, how am I going to
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  Speaker 1: find a Halloween costume that's not gonna happen until next
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  Speaker 1: Halloween at Spirit Halloween dot com? And I go out
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  Speaker 1: and buy one. The lord knows where Halloween costume is,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: but he gets a Halloween costume and puts the mask
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  Speaker 1: on around his head. Correct, Okay, I just wanted to
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  Speaker 1: make sure I understood that. Go ahead, Chrissy Missouri. I
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  Speaker 1: can't wait to hear what happens next. So she's asleep.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: She's asleep, and she wakes up days and confused to
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  Speaker 1: her dad on top of her, wearing a Halloween mask,
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  Speaker 1: pushing her head between her bed, and what do you
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  Speaker 1: mean on top of her, on top of her, to
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  Speaker 1: molest her, on top of her, to kill her, to
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  Speaker 1: try to smother her, pushing her head between the bed
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  Speaker 1: and the wall. You know, if your bed's up to
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  Speaker 1: the corner where the wall meets the joint. He's trying
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  Speaker 1: to force her head in between the bed and the wall,
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  Speaker 1: trying to smother her. She passes out. Moments later, here
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  Speaker 1: screams from her brother. She sees her father attacking her brother,
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  Speaker 1: she bites him, tries to rip him off of the brother.
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  Speaker 1: That's when she goes to get her mom. The mom
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  Speaker 1: thinks that her husband's having a nervous breakdown and is
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  Speaker 1: unaware how serious four year old Blake's injuries are. That's
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  Speaker 1: when the grandpa gets riled up and called the police. Now,
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  Speaker 1: remember I told you the daughter Alexis fights her father
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  Speaker 1: off of her brother, and the dad takes off Halloween
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  Speaker 1: mask and toll and barricades himself in the home office.
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  Speaker 1: So he leaves the bedroom Christie, Missouri, and goes and
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  Speaker 1: hides in the home office. That's right, that's right. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: You know, to doctor Mark R. Pressman, sleep scientific evidence specialist,
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  Speaker 1: author of Sleepwalking, Criminal Behavior and Reliable Scientific Evidence, Doctor Pressman,
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  Speaker 1: there is no way that this guy sleepwalking. I don't
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  Speaker 1: care what science may say, and you know, I just
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  Speaker 1: don't How could he do all that and still be asleep? Well,
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: to say that he's asleep, it's not exactly true. This
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  Speaker 1: is not normal sleep. This is sort of a weird
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  Speaker 1: mixture between deep sleep and waking that occurs because of
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  Speaker 1: some problems in the brain of sleepwalkers. So so sleepwalkers,
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  Speaker 1: he would not expect him to act just like anyone
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  Speaker 1: else who's asleep. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, take
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at w r AL. This
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  Speaker 1: is Aaron Hartness. Joseph Mitchell is accused of doing something
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  Speaker 1: almost unimaginable to most people. Deputies believe he suffocated his
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  Speaker 1: four year old son, Blake, and then stabbed himself multiple times.
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  Speaker 1: As Sir Twarren says, Mitchell's other two children say they
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  Speaker 1: woke up with something over their faces and had to
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  Speaker 1: fend off their father. Lieutenant Stan Harris says at some
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: point during the attack, Mitchell's wife ran to another part
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  Speaker 1: of the house trying to get help for her children.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: As sirch Twarren says, the family was in deep financial
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: trouble and their home was about to be seized by
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: a bank. Whether that played a major role or minor role,
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: we're just not a little to say right now. Poor
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  Speaker 1: documents say Mitchell's wife didn't know the extent of the
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: financial trouble. Sir Twarren's show. Investigators took computers from the home,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: along with copies of life insurance policies, including policies for
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  Speaker 1: all three children. Investigators also took a mask and a knife.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: Hold on, I can't write that fast. I need to
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: learn shorthand. But what's really jumping out of me, doctor
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: jen Man? A wife had no idea about the finances.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: Why is that still happening in twenty twenty one? Me?
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: I heard the word life and sharans connected to policy.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: All right, so and I heard financial troubles. Did you
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  Speaker 1: hear all that, doctor jen I assure to Nancy, And
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: you would be amazed, in this day and age, at
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: how many couples organize their finances where one person, usually
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  Speaker 1: the person who everyone decides this kind of quote unquote
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: better at those things, handles them and the other person
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: is in the dark. And I always encourage couples that
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: even if one person is handling the logistics of actually
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: pressing the button to send the check or actually literally
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: writing the check, that the other persons be involved so
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: they know what's going on. But you'd be amazed at
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: how often one partner is in the job. And you know,
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Jackie's over here rolling her eyes. Again, let me just
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: say it's not always a woman. Do you know, my
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: brother with a successful career, very successful career, brags he
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  Speaker 1: doesn't know how to use an ATM, and his wife
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: handles all the finances. When he says that, I'm so
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: proud of my children they just turned thirteen, doctor Jenn,
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  Speaker 1: and they all look at each other and it's not
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  Speaker 1: a secret. I give him a lot of grief about it,
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: but it happens. He brags he does not know how
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: to use the ATEN. I'd give him fifty cents and
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: tell him to go buy some candy. Really, so okay,
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: doctor Jen, that's the first thing. But Shelna Jim Shellna,
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: twenty seven years Metro Major Case Now lawyer, life insurance policy.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Did you hear that? It was like a siren blaring
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: in my ear? Yeah, life insurance policies on the children
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: and the wife, So yeah, I mean, you know, motive
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: honestly is you know, doesn't have to be proven in
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: a case. But when you have a case like this
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: where somebody saying, oh I didn't mean to do it
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: or it was sleepwalking, being able to show a potential
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: motive like this is huge. You're in a financial despair,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: you're about to lose everything. There is a way for
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: you to get this money, and it's through a life
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: insurance Paul see I think that goes a long way
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: towards helping a jury make a decision, at least at
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: this irrational jury. And to you medical examiner for the
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: entire state of Florida, doctor Tim Gallagher, right in your
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: back yard in the shadows of Disney. I don't know
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: if you recall this over in celebration where the father
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: was going under with all of his businesses. He was
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: committing fraud on the government for like one of those
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: muscle rehab places where after you are injured you're supposed
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: to get rehabbed. He was cheating the government like nobody's business.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: They found out, everything started going down, down, down. He
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: drove straight down to Celebration, Florida and murdered his wife
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: and children rather than anybody find out they're all going bust.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: This is not a knee story, doctor Gallagher. Remember that's case.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: It was recessed. Oh absolutely, And if anyone has been
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: a celebration, it's a very high exclusive neighborhood in the
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Disney area where how are millions and millions of dollars
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: each and of course image would be one of the
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: main pressing factors there. If you're going to live, you know,
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: doctor Gallagher, I got myself and the children and my
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: husband all in the car on a vacation. I had
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: an underlying motive. I went down there to see this
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: location and see and it's exactly as you just said.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: That's what we call where I come from, living high
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: on the hog, way, too high on the hog. And
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: then when it all started falling apart, it was better
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: to kill his family than admit financial ruin. I want
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: to go back to a special guest, doctor Mark R. Pressman.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Doctor Pressman, I want you to take a listen to
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: our cut number nine. This is Ariel Clay at w
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: R A L. Christine Pierrolini broke down when recalling the
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: night her four year old son was suffocated. I was
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: scared to touch him first because he didn't look great
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Lantosha's arm he didn't. February Joseph Mitchell's attorneys say he
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: was sleepwalking the night of the incident and question Pierrolini
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: about trouble Mitchell had at night before Blake's death, including
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: one time when he reared back to hit her employer. No,
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: I believe so interesting to you, doctor Pressman. The only
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: time he had. He has these episodes where he commits
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: X in his sleep. They're always domestic violence. You don't
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: think that's a coincidence, Well, it certainly could be. My
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: approach is very different. I want to know whether his
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: behaviors that night are consistent with what we know sleepwalkers
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: can or cannot do. And so typically sleepwalking violence, the
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: sleepwalker does not go to the victim. You know, all
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: this sort of cartoonish stuff about the sleepwalker walking with
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: his arms out and be a knife in his hand,
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: and you know, yelling kill, kill, kill while he looks
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: for revenge or something. That doesn't happen. In almost all
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: of the cases of sleepwalking violence, the victim actually comes
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: to the sleepwalker. Fleepwalkers up and about, and the victim
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: basically tries to get them to turn around, or they
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: block them, or they do something and they accidentally trigger
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: sleepwalking violence, which is actually defensive because the sleepwalker doesn't
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: recognize fleepwalker can't recognize faces, They don't know who this
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: person is. This person is just a potential, a potential
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: threat that they have to deal with on a very
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: primitive level. And also there are no reported cases ever
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: a violence of more than one person at a time.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: So the fact that he came into the room very
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: unusual and and abnormal. And the fact that there are
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: three victims all at the same time has never been
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: reported and is not consistent with what we know about sleep.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: And coincidentally, although I couldn't get you to commit to
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: a coincidence, very wise of you, doctor. Coincidentally, there were
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: three life insurance policies as well. Okay, doctor, pressman, I
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: hope you're sitting down. You many to lay down for this.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: Let's hear cut ten. This is tamer gives ABC eleven.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: The jurors we spoke with are so concerned about the
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: public's reaction to their verdict that they asked to remain anonymous,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: and they tell us if manslaughter had been on the table,
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: Joseph Mitchell would still be in jail. On one side
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: of the courtroom, a relief defendant, on the other, a
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: grieving mother, and inside the jury box twelve conflicted men
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: and women. It was the reasonable doubt that they gotten
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: as men off. This jur who asked us not to
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: reveal her name or show her face, says initial to lead.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: There were a few holdoubts, but ultimately the panel agreed
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Joseph Mitchell did not act with malice, intent, or premeditation
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: that's required for a first second degree murder conviction. Our
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: justice system failed this family. I don't think the jury failed.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: I think we made the decision we had to make
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: based on the laws and the instructions we were given. Well,
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: they can tell themselves that when they try to put
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: their head on the pillow to you, Sean McCollum, you
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: know when a jury or a jr. Has to hide
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: their face when they leave the courthouse, when they don't
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: want their name known, they know they did the wrong thing.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Here's what drives me crazy about what she said. She
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: doesn't believe her own verdict. Why in the world would
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: you say there's reasonable doubt when there's not with you?
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: That's insane to me. This guy did not go to
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: bed with a mask and a knife. He waited until
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: the wife was asleep, and by the house of sleep
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: he went and attacked two children and then fled after
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: the murder, locking himself in a room for self protection,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: and then claimed, oh, I didn't know what I was doing.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: I was sleepwalking. And my question for that is, had
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: he ever sleepwalked before? Had he sought medical help for it?
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: What steps did he take to prevent this? I bet
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: nothing because it was pre planned. I bet nothing because
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: there was no previous sleep walking problem unless he tried
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: to pull one over on his wife. And for ten
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: on an earlier occasion, he had been sleepwalking crime stories
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. For those of you that did not
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: hear it, the jury down. This guy not guilty. Blake Mitchell,
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: the little boy who lost his life just four years old.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: His dad Joseph Anthony Mitchell, fifty there in Durham, North Carolina,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: has walked free. But that's really just the tip of
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: the iceberg, you know. And I want to go back
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: out to you. James Shellnutt, twenty seven years Metro Major
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: case law enforcement now lawyer. James. The judge specifically instructs
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: the jury in every single criminal felony case, you are
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: to use and apply your common sense, almost verbatim, and
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: you are to reach a verdict to a moral and
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: reasonable certainty, moral and reasonable certainty, reasonable head, moral heart.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: In other words, if you believe it, If you believe
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: he did this thing, then the state has carried their burden.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: Yes or no? Shall not? Oh? I agree, And you
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: know I find it odd for this jury to say, well,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: if manslaughter would have been on the table, then he
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: wouldn't have left the courthouse. He'd went to jail. You know,
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: malice of forethought can be formed in the blink of
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: an eye. It doesn't take days or weeks or hours
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: of planning. It can happen in an instant and quite frankly,
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: sometimes you just get bad juries. You get bad juries
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: that don't use common sense. You get bad juries that
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: may not understand what they're doing, and you get bad
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: juries that sometimes are anti police, anti prosecution. And it
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: just seems like this was a bad jury that made
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: a bad decision on a case where a man should
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: have been convicted of murder. This jury, reeks, guys, that
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: was in North Carolina. Let's cross a country to Phoenix, Arizona.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut one. This is Brianna Whitney.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Just heard her knelling and you could hear her rolling
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: around in the rocks. Scott Phalater's next door neighbors jolted
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: away everyone outside to see if we could hear if
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: somebody needed help or something, and then the screaming quit.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: Police got to the house to find Phalater waiting for them.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: His wife, Yarmila, dead in the pool, forty four stab
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: wounds to her body. Later told them he had been
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: sleepwalking and couldn't remember anything, but the next door neighbor
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: told police he watched later stab his wife, drag her
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: to the pool, hold her head underwater, and then quieting
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: the dog, going up the stairs, turning on a light,
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: taking clothes off, going down to the garage, getting things
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: out of the garage. He dashed the bloody knife and
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: his bloody clothes in his car, all while his twelve
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: and fifteen year old children were asleep in the house.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: You're hearing our friends there at True Crime Arizona. Another
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: sleepwalking murder. Okay, guys, forty four stab wounds. Take a
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: listen to our friends at Inside Edition Our Cut two.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: It was a murder that shocked the nation. The notorious
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: sleepwalking killer Scott Plater, stabbed his wife forty four times,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: then drowned her in the pool. His defense, he was sleepwalking.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: I breathed the fight. When Phoenix cops got there, they
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: found Flatter at the top of the stairs in his pajamas.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: He made remarks to the stead of what's going on?
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: What are you doing in my house? That is all
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: about Scott Later. Let me go back to Chrissy, miss
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: Emmy Award winning investigative reporter. What happened in Arizona. It
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: depends on what tale you want to believe, whether you
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: want to believe Scott Later or the neighbors that watched
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: a methodical murderer in action, you know, as a dead
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: Let's start with the neighbors, Christie, right, So they hear
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: some noises in the neighbor's backyard and look over the
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: fence to find your milla, create a laying on the
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: ground that they watched Scott walk very calmly back into
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: the house and as mentioned in the clip, you know,
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: turn lights off and on as he's making his way
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: through the house changing clothes. But one detail that came
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: out in testimony is that greg Coon's the neighbor watched
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: Scott's Philater done a pair of gloves before he comes
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: back outside and drags his body his wife's bodies over
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: to the pool and drowns her. The very critical fact
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: removes the gloves, takes off his clothes, puts them in
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: a tupperware container along with the bloody knife. When the
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: cops show up, he's standing at the top of the
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: stairs with a crisp white T shirt eye. Okay, Cheryl McCallum,
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Research Institute, forensics expert jump
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: in feet first, premeditation Again, everything he did after the
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: murder was to save himself. So you're talking about a
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: calculated I've got to have gloves. I've got a drown
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: her to make sure she's dead, because she's not dead
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: from the stab wounds. Now I've got to hide the
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: clothes that I was wearing when I committed the crime.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: I'm going to change clothes so I looked fresh and clean,
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: so they'll never suspect me. This is not somebody out
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: of it asleep that doesn't know what they're doing. These
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: are criminals acting out crimes we see every day the
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: exact same way. I mean, don't you think doctor Tim
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Gallagher that after forty four stabs, the jarring of the stabs,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: crunching through bone, cartilage, tendons, muscle, human organs would have
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: woken him up? Well, you know, my patients really are
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: not you know, alive. But I would think that by
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: using common sense, which all of us on the panel have,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: that yes, one stab when one poke, even a poke
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: in the eye rop or a sharp poke in the
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: chest would wake me up, certainly, forty four stab wounds
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: wouldn't wake me. No, I mean the defendant, the husband,
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: the jarring motion of forty four stabs, dragging your wife
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: around changing clothes, and then when the police to get there,
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: you're like, what happened? I mean to doctor Mark Pressman,
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: joining us author, sleepwalking, criminal behavior and reliable scientific evidence.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: I must make a confession. My nephew, a real brainiac,
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: as a child, would sleepwalk. And I remember one episode.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: We went all went to Jackson Hall, Wyoming for my parents'
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: fiftieth wedding anniversary, and that night my nephew was sleeping
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: in the room with me and I heard the door
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: opening and I looked up and immediately sprung up. This
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: is when I was still a prosecutor. I ran out
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: in the hall and there is my little nephew, maybe
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: nine years old, walking down the hall, and I called
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: his name, and he didn't turn around. I called his
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: name again, he didn't turn around. I ran to him
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: and got in front of him and grabbed him by
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: the shoulders. He looked so afraid and he ran back
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: to the room, jumped in the bed and hunched up
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: and put a pillow over his head. He was afraid
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: he was asleep, but when I touched his shoulders, he
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: was groggy. But he ran back to the room because
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: he looked around in the hall and didn't understand what
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: was happening around him. But by the time he got
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: back to the room, he was awakened from his sleepwalking.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: So explain to me, you're the expert, doctor Pressman, how
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: someone could conceivably stab their wife forty four times and
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: claimed they were asleep. Wow. I was the prosecution expert,
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: so I don't think he did. At trial, I presented
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: sixty different instances of behaviors he had. This was Remember
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: this trial was very unusual because the next door neighbor
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: was in the backyard watching what was going on for
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: a good twenty minutes. You know, light's going and off.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: That's evidence that you never have in cases like this.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: So the important thing to know about a real sleepwalker
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: is real sleepwalker does not have what we can higher
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: cognitive function. Real sleepwalker cannot form a memory, cannot retrieve
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: a memory. A real sleepwalker cannot plan. A real sleepwalker
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: cannot form an intent. Real sleepwalker has no social social abilities.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: That part of the brain that has those you know,
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: where those abilities reside is turned off in the sleepwalker
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: is deactivated. So if the sleepwalker does something that can
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: only happen with that part of the brain activated, then
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: they're not asleep. They're not sleepwalker, they're awake. Time Stories
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about murders committed
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: while they defendant is allegedly asleep. You were just hearing
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: about Scott Felder. You'll be happy to know that he
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: was actually convicted. But I want to talk to you
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: about another case, the case of Deborah Lazaraine. To Christy Missourich,
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Emmy Award winning investigative reporter, President of Successful Strategies pr
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: in Crisis Communications, tell me about the case of Deborah Lazaraine.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: So this is again the children are involved, and they're
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: really the ones that kind of perpetuate the nine one
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: one calls Raymond Lazarine calls his son Nathan. It's the
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: middle of the day, afternoon, urging him to come to
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: the house. He said he's having a dream that he
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: shot and killed his wife. It was not a dream.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: Nathan arrives, he finds his mother, Deborah dead on the floor,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: shell casing scattered all around her. She shot a half
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: dozen times, two shots to her head in her back.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: He finds his father in the bedroom with a gun
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: Raymond Lazarine. When the police arrived, he tells him he
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: doesn't know what was happening. He was dreaming. But here's
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: the thing, you know. When the cops talked to Nathan,
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Nathan said, look, my father's threatened my mom in the past.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: He's very controlling. We never filed a complaint, didn't know
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: if it would rise to this. And at the time
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: of this shooting, Raymond Lazarine was under psyche yet for
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: care and taking prescriptions for psychotic episodes. Straight back out
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: to Cheryl McCollum, forensics expert, director of the Coal Case
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Research Institute, didn't O. J. Simpson have a dream that
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: he killed Nicole Brown? I believe. So let me tell
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: you something easy, funny, how these dreams were If it
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: weren't so crap. I guess they're all clairvoyant, Cheryl, because
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: all these dreams come true. They do kill their wives,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: and they know exactly how they kill them. It wasn't like, oh,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: man and I had a horrible dream. She fell off
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: a cliff. No, you knew you shot her. Amazing, and
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: you just happen to be sitting there with a weapon
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: in your hand when your son finally shows up. I
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: mean here, it's just baffling. And again, if it weren't
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: so tragic, it would be laughable. The level of bs
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: that this arises to is just unbelievable. Everybody on this
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: panel that is married to a man knows that knows
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: the time they couldn't find a mask or gloves or
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: bins or phone numbers, they always come to us, but
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: not these us. Well that's a mop and a brand,
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: much less a mop of a broom, But not these guys.
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: Oh he found a Halloween mask or what Halloween? The
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: other one has a pair of gloves sitting on ready.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: The other one's got bins. He could put bloody clothes
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: in garbage. It's complete, garbage, complete. I can't believe juries
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: are falling for this guys. We're talking about the case
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: of Raymond Lazarine, his wife Deborah Lazarine. Take a listen
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: to our cut thirteen Kaylee Harteng at ABC's America this morning.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: This morning, an unusual murder trial is underway in Texas.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: For a man who blames his sleepwalking for the death
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: of his wife. In December twenty thirteen, Raymond Lazarine called
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: his son and told him he had just had a
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: dream that he shot and killed his wife of thirty
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: five years, Deborah Lazarine. But it wasn't a dream. Lazarine
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: admits he shot Deborah half a dozen times. He claims
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: it was involuntary on account that he was asleep. There
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: are other witnesses over there that have seen the manifestation
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: of a sleep disorder, and we thought that would be
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: important for the jury. Tone joining me special guest doctor
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: Mark R. Pressman, author of Sleepwalking, Criminal Behavior and Reliable
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: Scientific Evidence, and an expert witness in the case against
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Raymond Lazarine. What can you tell us, doctor, Well, first
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: of all, they got it a little bit wrong. It
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: actually was not a sleepwalking defense. It was a disorder
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: that may appear externally very similar, but is even rarer
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: and actually scarier. It's called rem behavior disorder RAM is
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: rapid eye movement sleep. Most people are where that's the
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: kind of sleep when you typically have your vivid dreaming
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: and okay, wait a minute, let me understand how finally
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: you're splitting this hair. You're saying, this is not a
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: sleepwalking defense. This is an M defense. You have ri
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: em rapid eye movement. So everyone has when you're asleep,
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: everyone has RAM sleep. And what brief he is saying
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: he was asleep when he killed him. He's claiming he
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: was in REM sleep at the time. And there's one
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: Could you tell me what difference does that make asleep
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: when he did It's there's an enormous difference in why
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: it occurs and what kind of behaviors someone who has
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: M behavior disorder can have. One of the least known
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: things about normal REM sleeper is that people who are
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: or are dreaming are unable to move okay for all
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: intensive purposes. Everybody who has who dreams is essentially paralyzed
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: while they dream. If you weren't paralyzed, you might be
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: able to essentially act out your dream. And just think
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: of the last dream you had, what would happen if
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: you acted that out. So what he's saying is for
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: some reason problem in the brain. That we actually know
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: what is wrong in the brain in these cases, that
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: the mechanism that causes the paralysis didn't work, and for
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: some reason he got up and retrieve the gun and
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: search for his wife, etcetera, etcetera. But none of that
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: is possible. Yes, I'm sorry to ask you a very
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: simple This is a yes no doctor. In the case
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: you must Yes, I've got you on the hot seat.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: You're on cross in my mind anyway, Yeah, you got
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: You want me to answer yes or no. I never
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: answer yes or no, doctor Pressman. Isn't it true that,
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: in the case of Raymond Lazarine, charged in the murder
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: of his wife, Deborah Lazarine, in that case you were
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: an expert witness. And isn't it true that at the
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: time of the death of the wife Lazarine claimed he
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: was asleep? Well, he claimed he was streaming asleep. Yes,
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: he claimed he was in a dream when he did it. Yes. Yes,
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: Now I understand you're saying, or I think I do. Anyway,
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: they didn't teach me this at law school. You'd have
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: to be an MD for this. But I think what
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: you're saying is, let me throw this to you, doctor
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: gen Man. The parsing of the words is splitting of
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: the hair. Is that the defendant claim he had an
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: RM rapid eye movement problem, But the reality is he
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: still claims he was asleep when he murdered his wife.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: Are you understanding that the same way I'm understanding I am,
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: But I don't know that this guy had a rapid
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: eye movement problem. Might think he had a domestic violence
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: problem because there is a history of other incidents where
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: he was violent with his wife. And as a therapist
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: who I don't specialize in fleet disorders, but I have
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: a long history working with domestic violence survivors. That's what
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: I look at. And there's an incident where his wife
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: asked for a glass of water and next thing she knew,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: he was on top of her with a gun under her.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: Check to you, Christie Missourich, Emmy Award winning investigative reporter,
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: isn't it true that this defendant, the husband, Raymond Lazzarine,
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: had a long history of being a nasty and hateful
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: and abusive drunk as an abusive alcoholic who regularly threatened
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: his wife with violence. Isn't that true? According to his
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: son Nathan, he broke down too many instances to list.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: The problem was they never called the police out of
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: maybe their own personal fear. But the father would habitually
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: pop these prescription medications. And you know, slug back a
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: couple of shots of whiskey. You know what's interesting, Cheryl McCollum.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: You know all the years that I prosecuted, including domestic
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: homicides and aggas salts, and worked at the Battered Women's
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: Center on the hotline. So often it's typically men, but
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: it can be women to blame beating their partner on alcohol.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: I don't buy that. It's not the alcohol's fault. Alcohol
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: makes you more of what you are. So when women say, oh,
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: he's a good man when he's not drinking, the problem
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: is he ain't never not drinking. And if you drink
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: enough again, it heightens who you are. If you are
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: fun and just the life of the party. The more
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: you drink, the more fun you are. If you're just
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: a piece of crap who's looking for a fight, as
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: soon as you start drinking, you're just slugging the first
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: person you see to you. Christine, mister Rick, what happened
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: in the case of Raymond Lazarine, You don't look he's
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: We're all safer to have someone like that behind you
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: know what? And to my understanding, multiple defendants across the
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: US have gotten off Scott free walks Scott Free, claiming
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: sleep disorder sleep walking. Today we examine the case of
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: Scott for later who managed to slip through the fingers
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: of Lady justice, as compared to Mitchell and Lazarine. Long
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: story short, All of these guys, still, whether convicted or acquitted,
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: insist they were sleepwalking. Nancy Grace scribed stories, signing off
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: goodbye friend.