Latest / Chef's PSA Podcast / Chef Ashish Alfred Reveals Restaurant Reality Ep. 161

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Chef Ashish Alfred Reveals Restaurant Reality Ep. 161 · Chef's PSA Podcast

0:00
Hello chefs, this is Chef's PSA. I'm your host Andre Natera.
0:03
Today my guest is Chef Ashish Alfred.
0:05
He's an award-winning chef and restaurateur.
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He's been the Co host of Bar Rescue as well as been on
0:10
countless other TV programs. Today we're going to get into
0:13
the challenges of running restaurants, working in France
0:16
and a little bit of behind the scenes of being on TV.
0:19
You'll enjoy this one. Stay tuned.
0:34
I have I have a question. So Bar Rescue, how real is that?
0:38
Oh, it's, it's real. It's, it's very real.
0:40
Almost, you know, John sat me down and told me a story when I
0:44
first met him, and almost to his detriment.
0:47
Is that show real? You know, he told me that when
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he, when the show first started, there was an executive or
0:53
producer that wanted him to plant like a dirty tampon
0:56
somewhere and get that on film. And John told the guy to get
0:59
fucked basically. And they had to fly an executive
1:02
out from the network. And the network was like,
1:04
listen, we get it. You want it to be real, but you
1:06
can't tell the producer to get fucked.
1:09
He, he, he, he actually prides himself on, on, on the fact that
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it's real. It is real.
1:15
They don't stage it. They, I mean, yeah, I mean,
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obviously you got to sell TV shows.
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You know, sure, surely there's an entertainment aspect about.
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If it's, if it's bad, are they going to draw attention to
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something that's bad? Yeah, of course.
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You know, 'cause people, you know, are watching for the blood
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and the guts and the gore and the fungus and the and the mold
1:30
and the whatever. But it's, it's real.
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I mean, there's no plants there. It's it, it's, it's real.
1:38
How? How does it work for the person
1:39
that's at the bar? Like is, is there immediate
1:41
friction between between you guys and them when you go in or
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is it like they're they're welcoming and they're excited to
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have you, but. I mean, I, I think that they're
1:52
excited to get their bar made over.
1:54
Yeah, they're excited to. For the PR for the.
1:57
PR, the publicity to get that influx of people coming in the
1:59
door, they're excited for that. When they realize the cost at
2:03
which it comes, yeah, I think they become a little bit less
2:07
excited. They, the, the real, the magic
2:12
of that show and the magic of, of, of Jon Taffer, the reason
2:16
that he's been able to carry it for as long as he has is it is
2:21
almost like being a chef. You got to know when to kiss
2:23
him. You got to know when to shove
2:24
him and, and to overcut to make it even more difficult.
2:29
You got to be able to do it when the camera's watching, because
2:31
if you can't build tension, you got to be able to walk in and
2:34
identify who your players are. You know, like when you walk
2:37
into your kitchen, you know, all right, this guy a boss on prep.
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This guy sucks on prep, but he's going to get me through service
2:44
when I was 27 tickets deep. This guy's going to pull me
2:47
through. You know, going in as the host
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of that show, you've got to be able to figure out who your
2:53
players are really quick, who's going to give you the most and
2:55
who's going to give you a Dick. Yeah.
2:57
How did how did you get hooked up with that show?
2:59
What's the story? You know, like a lot of things
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in my life there, there's no, there's no great story.
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I got a phone call. They asked me if I had any
3:11
interest. I mean, let's face it, there's
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probably some CRM sheet, right? Yeah, But I got a phone call.
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They asked me if I had some interest.
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They did some interviews, they did some background checks and.
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And six months later, I was in some armpit of Florida.
3:28
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Meeting Mr. Taffer and getting
3:33
involved with this bar, it was a great experience.
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I learned a. Lot would you do it again?
3:42
I'm really excited about that kind of concept.
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I'm really excited about taking my perspective as a chef and as
3:52
a minority and as a business owner and as somebody who has
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failed in business as well. And and is, you know, where's
4:01
that badge pretty proudly take that and apply it.
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I don't know that I could apply all that going back to if I went
4:10
back to Bar Rescue. I think that for me, I'd be more
4:15
interested in like a a chef driven.
4:17
Yeah, What would that look like? Because I think about like some
4:19
of the the Top Chef shows, you got Next Level Kitchen, which is
4:22
entertaining as well. I like that show.
4:24
I normally don't watch a lot of food TV, but Next Level Chef
4:28
kind of hooked me in because it's like, what the fuck am I
4:29
watching? This is pretty great.
4:31
Top Chef, obviously, I think, I think they've kind of done a
4:34
great job. Obviously they're still on the
4:35
air for all these years. Iron Chef, I wish they'd bring
4:38
it back correctly, you know, just just bring it back
4:42
correctly. But I also look at what what's
4:45
on YouTube now and I feel like, you know, we're talking Josh
4:48
Wiseman earlier. I really like what he's doing.
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I and I see like the Mr. Beast of Culinary.
4:54
I see it. Maybe it's going that way, but I
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don't know. I mean, if you had a magic wand
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and you were going to say, OK, like, what would be the ideal
5:01
show that would excite you to to jump in?
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I'd love to go back into a show that, you know, was a lot like
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Bar Rescue. It was a little bit more of a
5:10
culinary focus. I think that'd be really
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exciting. It it, there is something really
5:15
satisfying about about getting the hug.
5:21
You know, the end of the at the end of the episode, the hug.
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It's real. It's real because for these
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people that, that go out, that you go out to help.
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And it's not just you, you know, I, I should say this, the there
5:32
is a team of people I can just speak for Bar Rescue.
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I don't know any other show that work morning to night that are
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on the road the majority of the year away from their families,
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their friends, their homes. They work so hard on that show.
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It blows my mind. That being said, I, I would to
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answer your question, I would love to go back into a show like
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that because it's super satisfying to connect with
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people on that level to I mean, as as you're an extra restaurant
6:01
owner, if somebody came in and threw you a lifeline, right?
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How grateful would you be if you didn't know any better?
6:07
You know, to make that connection with people is is
6:10
really special. And the other show that I'd
6:11
really like to do is I have, I know a lot about French food.
6:17
I've been cooking French food and, and you know, you could say
6:19
European Food for for all of my career, I've never really
6:23
connected with my roots in India.
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And I think that there are a lot of amazing things happening with
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Indian food across this country. And I think that if I could
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apply what I know about Western cuisine to some of my Indian
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roots, and if I could, if I could build a show and in a
6:41
dream world, I'd be on a motorcycle riding around India
6:43
learning about Indian food and finding a way to pair that with
6:46
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first order. Do you go to India often?
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I've been once or twice every couple years.
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I speak the language fluently. It's a beautiful country.
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I think highly misunderstood. I think even at a very, very
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high level, you know, you have like Gymkhana in London, you
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have Damaca, you have amazing Indian restaurants that really
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get it right. But I don't know that they have
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a they have the right voice behind them to really kind of
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change people's perception and the conversation around Indian
8:02
food. What do you mean?
8:04
So like, you know, they're, I mean, how many times have you
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asked somebody you like Indian food and the first thing it
8:11
says, no, I hate Curry. That's actually never happened.
8:14
Everyone loves Curry. Well I'm just getting happy.
8:19
I get your point. It's happened to me a lot.
8:20
You know, people, people mistake it from being very, it is a very
8:25
strong flavor profile, people explain.
8:27
Expect it to be overly spicy, overly greasy brown food on
8:31
brown sauce. And, and that's just not the
8:34
case. It's a, it's a, it's a country
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of vibrant color and it's a cuisine of vibrant color and,
8:38
and different tastes, you know, pickling of mangoes, pickling of
8:41
lemons. And I, and I think that if, if,
8:45
if all that nuance was brought together with a maybe a lighter
8:48
touch and, and, and somebody that sounds like me, yeah, I, I
8:53
think it could help break down some barriers.
8:54
So you you bring up an interesting point because I
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don't, I don't think anyone's told the story.
9:00
Well, at least now that that comes to mind immediately of
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Indian food in the United States, no one's told the story.
9:04
Not that no one's made great Indian food, but no one's told
9:06
the story. Yeah, I'm trying to think.
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I mean, Floyd Cardos maybe. I don't know.
9:12
Did he did he tell the story? Well then, he's a legend.
9:15
I mean, he was before definitely Legend, but he was before I
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think really social media had really taken off.
9:21
Yeah. So I think that did he have the
9:24
ability to tell the story 100%? Did he have the opportunity?
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Maybe not. Right.
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He didn't have the platform. Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, that's a
9:30
fairpoint. Again, talking about social
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media and talking about the platform and talking about TV
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and you've been on TV and obviously you're successful on
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social media as well. How important is it?
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So like a lot of what we do on chefs is like we're giving
9:47
advice to younger cooks and chefs.
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So it's people that are listening, like what advice are
9:50
you giving them? Like if they want to go to the
9:52
TV route or if they want to go to the social media route?
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Or is there like, hey, no, you need to ignore both those.
9:56
This is what you need to do. And, and I understand that
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cooking is probably like learn how to cook first.
10:01
Let's assume they got that. I mean, assuming you know how to
10:04
cook, right? What's your angle?
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Why should you be on TV and not the other million guys that are
10:12
trying to get on TV every time they take their phone and prop
10:15
it up while they're chopping onions?
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What's your perspective? What's your, what's your story?
10:20
What's your voice? What do you what do you have to
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say that somebody else isn't already saying?
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There is so much competition to be on that screen, whether it's
10:30
a screen on your phone, whether it's a screen on your couch, you
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know, in front of your couch. You, you're competing with the
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streamers, YouTube, TikTok, it is massive.
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And they are all fighting for the same ad dollars.
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You know, everybody, every, you know, you hear when you're in
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kind of the circles, the television circles, right?
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You say, well, this place will only uses the same talent all
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the time. This place only uses the same
10:56
talent all the time. A lot of people are just scared
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to change what's working. So my advice would be work out
11:06
what your angle is. What do you bring to the table?
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I mean, if you're, if you're, if you're making, you know,
11:10
spaghetti carbonara, cool type spaghetti carbonara on Instagram
11:13
right now, there's going to be 50 fucking videos and then 50
11:17
videos off of those videos. So I mean, figure out what your,
11:20
what your perspective and what your voice is.
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And you don't have to have one. There's nothing wrong with
11:26
having a great restaurant. There's nothing wrong with, even
11:29
if it's not your restaurant, running a great kitchen and
11:31
cooking great food and being a great chef and not making it to
11:35
the. There's nothing wrong with that,
11:36
but. But don't you think like in
11:37
today's restaurant world, you have to have some social media
11:40
presence as a restaurant just to people know you exist?
11:43
Social media, ghosts. Social media, yes, I agree.
11:45
Social media, yes, you have to play the game.
11:47
Yeah, It's just what we do. And and my advice to restaurant
11:51
owners, you know, I do a little consulting when they say, well,
11:54
you know, our chef doesn't like to do this, and our chef doesn't
11:56
like to do that. Hire a new chef.
11:57
Yeah, he's a fucking ghost. Sorry, hire a new chef even if
12:01
he doesn't want to be on camera. Cool man, don't be on camera but
12:04
but play, you know, you got to play ball.
12:07
It's just part of the game. I tell people I've used this
12:10
example before. It's like, let's say you have
12:12
$5,000,000 and you're you're going to build a restaurant and
12:16
you need to hire a chef and one chef, great resume, no social
12:20
media presence. The other chef may be OK, 10
12:22
million followers who you're going to hireright, You're going
12:25
to hire the one with 10 million followers.
12:26
Even though he might not be the most talented chef, it's because
12:30
we're in that attention economy. He's going to post something.
12:32
He's going to have a line out the door.
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I got to be careful about saying what I'm going to say next
12:36
because I don't want to get anyone in trouble that told me
12:38
this. So I might change up the details
12:40
a little bit. But I have a friend that helps
12:45
book dinners and he's talking a list chefs and a list content
12:52
creators. He says sometimes they have to
12:54
give away tickets to the A list chefs events, but they sell out
12:58
within minutes for the content creators.
13:00
And it, it's kind of mind blowing because, well, one, for
13:04
me, it says something that the content creator, one, they
13:08
understand the market like people kind of not content
13:10
creators sometimes. And I think like, be careful
13:12
because they're fucking winning. Fancy chef is beating everybody,
13:15
right? But what they're doing is
13:17
they're usually cooking to what people want to eat because
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they're not thinking like a chef.
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They're thinking like, I need to make a great fucking hamburger
13:23
100%. And that's why people are
13:25
showing up. And then chefs are thinking, not
13:27
all chefs, but a lot of chefs are thinking, well, I want to
13:29
blow you away with this fucking broken white sauce of green oil
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and this fermented this, that and the other.
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And I want to impress my chefs. You're great.
13:36
You impressed a bunch of chefs that don't go to your
13:38
restaurant. Yep.
13:39
And I think that's why, you know, back to my friend's point,
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I think that's why a lot of the content creators are selling out
13:44
their dinners 100% and their cookbooks are selling out and
13:47
and these award-winning chefs are struggling. 150% you could
13:51
not be more right. There's guys that I know today
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and I'm not going to name any names.
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These guys are good friends of mine and they'll look me in the
13:58
face and they'll be they they know the you'll cook me on the
14:01
table any day of the week. But I'm cooking fried chicken
14:03
with like whiskey BBQ sauce and like drizzling it all over from
14:07
5 feet high. Yeah.
14:08
People want what they want. Yeah.
14:10
And and that's not by any means me saying you got to sell out,
14:13
but you got to find a little balance.
14:15
Yeah, you got to read the room a little bit.
14:16
You know I I for a long time I ran a aligo in my restaurant.
14:23
Inconvenient pain in the ass middle of the summer.
14:28
But is mashed potatoes a fucking cheese?
14:30
We're going to get to the cheese, though.
14:31
Hold on before you tell the whole story.
14:33
What was the method for the cheese?
14:34
Would you freeze it? Would you grate it?
14:36
How did you get the cheese in there?
14:37
It it we, we just threw it in Almanu.
14:40
Yeah, yeah. We added little cheese, little
14:41
almond. We did it right.
14:42
Copper pan on the flat top. Yeah, Yeah, we did it right.
14:45
Just Oh yeah. Stretch it, yeah.
14:48
That's nice. Yeah.
14:49
And then, of course, yelling from the line, yelling from I'll
14:51
go in the window because as soon as it goes cold, you know, it's
14:54
not stretching. But it's one of those things
14:55
that, you know, was it my favorite thing in the world to
14:59
do? Did the cooks like it?
15:00
No, nobody liked it. Yeah.
15:01
But it, you know, it brought people in the door.
15:03
The the burger that I that was like best burger, whatever,
15:07
whatever. I I could not stomach the idea
15:11
of putting a burger on my menu. I was like, I don't think that
15:13
we need a burger. I don't think that we need a
15:14
burger now everywhere I go yeah, that I consult for you guys need
15:18
a burger on the menu, right. You need a burger or fries.
15:20
Fucking chefs. The chefs there, they're like,
15:21
why? Why chef?
15:22
Why? I thought you were one of us.
15:23
Yeah. How dare you tell us to put a
15:24
fucking burger on the menu, right?
15:25
Because it sells, motherfucker, right?
15:27
Right, exactly because it's going to be your number one
15:29
fucking seller. 100% right, Right 100.
15:31
Percent yeah, it's funny. Back to the alley go.
15:33
We used to freeze our our curds and then and then blitz them and
15:36
throw them in. That was that was our trick that
15:38
that seemed to work. We used to do great, agree year,
15:42
yeah, which is not typical, but it's really hard to get.
15:46
What's the actual cheese that's supposed to go there?
15:48
I don't know, I used great agree.
15:50
We used great agree year and then we would to give it a
15:53
little acidity we just add in a tablespoon of cream fresh on the
15:55
end. Yeah, there you go.
15:57
And it was great. Yeah, yeah, in fact and then?
15:59
Of course I made it on TikTok. Yeah, I made it on TikTok.
16:03
I like used the whole potato for my boy Danny Grubbs.
16:05
I made it on TikTok. And then of course, all the
16:07
Frenchies were in there. That's not real.
16:09
You know how they go. You used.
16:10
You didn't use the right to get fucked.
16:11
Yeah, yeah, it's OK. Then they'll call it aligo.
16:13
Yeah, yeah. These are just cheese potatoes.
16:15
Then how about that Fuck you. Fuck.
16:17
People get so particular about about the the right way to make
16:20
everything. It's like, you know what the
16:21
right way is? The way I'm fucking like, are
16:23
they happy? Like who cares?
16:24
You said something and it sang to me.
16:26
You were like, I don't respond to the negative Nancy's like I
16:30
don't respond. Like if you've got something
16:31
shitty to say, you've got something stupid to say.
16:32
I don't respond. I couldn't agree with you more.
16:34
I I don't reward bad behavior with my attention, and I don't
16:37
argue with idiots. Yeah, I.
16:38
Couldn't. Agree with you more.
16:39
Yeah, like if you're an idiot, I'm.
16:40
I'm not gonna fucking respond. My mother, who you'll probably
16:43
hear me quote more than once, but she, she gives good advice
16:46
and, and most of the time she gives good advice and she always
16:49
says, you know, if you're walking past somebody's yard,
16:51
their dogs bark and are you gonna bark back?
16:52
Yeah, that's a great. That's a great one.
16:57
Don't bore back. Don't bore back.
16:59
Yeah. Fuck that dog.
17:02
How dare you disrespect me. You don't.
17:05
You know, I'm going to get off on a food tangent, but I'll tell
17:08
you, you know what I really like about you.
17:10
Like I I, we have a lot more in common than I think, as we're
17:14
discovering, right. But one of the things that we
17:17
really have in common is I cook just like you.
17:21
Like I, I watch, I watch the way you cook and I'm like, that's
17:24
that's how I cook, but that's also how I eat.
17:26
That's what I wanted. Like if you give me a blank
17:28
slate and just open up a restaurant, like I'm just going
17:29
to cook like that, it's going to be fucking aligo.
17:32
It's going to be a proper roasted chicken.
17:34
It's not going to be two crates and be some Arju Baragol.
17:36
It's going to be like make it taste good first.
17:39
I can't tell you how good that is to hear because as a chef, I
17:42
think we get, we feel like we're on an island.
17:44
Yeah. You know, And I think that a lot
17:46
of us struggle with that imposter syndrome.
17:47
The ones of us that are good, I think we always wonder if we
17:50
could have done it differently, could have done it better, if
17:51
anybody really likes it. So to hear that come from you,
17:53
somebody who else would respect very much, that means a lot to
17:56
us. So thank you.
17:56
Thank you. You know, it's like I had my, my
17:59
mark up here white moment where it's like, am I?
18:02
Who am I cooking for? Yeah.
18:04
Right. Who am I cooking for like I I
18:05
like making pretty food, don't get me wrong, but it feels like
18:10
it's lip filler and it's BBL and it's pretty food is implants.
18:14
You know what I mean? It's it's it's cosmetic surgery.
18:17
But a beautiful roasted chicken is like fact.
18:20
Like, I want to marry that. Yeah.
18:21
You know, that's what I want to marry.
18:23
I want to marry the roasted chicken.
18:25
I want to eat something good. And I want to say I want to eat
18:27
it again forever. Yes.
18:29
Right. I don't want to say I tried it.
18:30
Great. It was weird.
18:31
It was cool. I got to see this.
18:33
I could mark that off the list. Yeah.
18:35
One and done. I think the best restaurants
18:37
marry the two. That's my opinion.
18:39
Yeah. Yeah, I ate at Likukuf in New
18:43
York City last week. I was there.
18:46
I saw your your story, it looked crazy good.
18:50
It was so good and so you would think walking in there was going
18:55
to be really stiff and whatever man, it was just the right
19:00
amount of judge on the plate. So bone warmingly satisfying.
19:08
I mean, they just got it right. There's nothing.
19:11
This is a little bit off topic, but I tell people all the time,
19:13
if you want a really great meal, go somewhere that does not have
19:17
a Michelin star, but they're about to get one or go somewhere
19:21
that's got 2 because they got 2. They're fucking trying for
19:24
three. Or go somewhere it's got one
19:26
because they got one. They're probably moving to two.
19:29
And and I think like Cuckoo does not have one yet, but they're
19:32
they're trying to get there. And that experience was a
19:35
singular one that will stand out in my mind.
19:37
Did you have a sweet bread dish? I did not.
19:40
You did not. I do like sweetbreads, yeah, but
19:42
I did not. No, I thought.
19:43
I thought maybe I solved one on your story.
19:45
No, I saw a sweetbread dish recently.
19:46
It was a Pike mousse. Was it?
19:48
Yeah. It was like a Canel de Brochet.
19:50
Yeah, yeah, it was super good. That's great, Yeah.
19:53
And again to the point, Canel de Brochet and then the Pablo Cus 1
19:58
writes like white on white on white with some caviar and.
20:02
I did that Danny Grubbs video, the first one that I ever did.
20:05
He brings me, he brings me McDonald's says make my
20:08
McDonald's gourmet. So I took filet of fish, added
20:11
some scalps, made a mousse past it.
20:14
But that I mean, that's like rooted in so much tradition, you
20:19
know, it's so much skill and technique, you know, and I and I
20:23
caught myself going back to the guys that I had worked for and
20:25
going back to school where I'm like putting the robocool in the
20:27
freezer. I'm putting ice in the Robocool
20:29
before I make the mousse. And.
20:32
And when you do stuff like that, you got to wonder, Man does who
20:35
does when does this die? Yeah, because I can never put
20:37
that on my menu. It's close.
20:39
Someone messaged me today. They sent me a clip from a
20:43
podcast where they were talking. I don't, unfortunately, I don't
20:45
remember who the chef was that was talking, but he was talking
20:49
about how a lot of times like cooks are so focused on tasting
20:53
many. They're like, they're really
20:54
good at the three or four things that they do.
20:56
They don't know how to cook. They, they don't know how to
20:58
have multiple pans on and, and I, I think about that.
21:02
And so the person that messaged me, she said, you know, why do
21:04
you think that is and how do you solve it?
21:05
I said, well, I, I'll tell you what I think.
21:07
I think it's because of the incentive structure, the
21:10
incentive structure for a restaurant and the incentive
21:12
structure for attention. So the incentive structure for
21:15
attention is I make pretty food with flowers and a sturtiums and
21:18
broken oils. I'm going to get a lot of likes
21:21
vanity metrics. So I will make more of that
21:23
because it grabs attention visually.
21:25
On the other side, the restaurant says, well, I want
21:27
awards, I want a best new, I want a Michelin or James,
21:31
whatever. So what do those restaurants
21:34
have in common? This kind of food plus maybe
21:37
tasting menu. I'll do more of that.
21:39
And so we start working towards the incentive structure, whether
21:42
that's social media metrics or, you know, vanity metrics or if
21:46
that's, you know, awards or whatever.
21:49
And somewhere along the lines, we forgot how to cook.
21:52
We forgot that it needs to taste good.
21:53
And I get it, by the way. I get it.
21:56
You'd want to grow your Instagram account.
21:57
You want to have awards because it fills up your restaurant.
22:00
But at the end of the day, like, how do you how do you not make
22:05
it just about that and still bring it back to the food?
22:07
I don't have the answer. It's just something I think of.
22:08
Sure. Yeah.
22:10
I mean, I don't think, not that you asked me a question, but I,
22:13
I, I, there's nothing wrong with either, right?
22:16
If that's what you want to do, then that's what you want to do.
22:18
I think where, where my ass gets chapped is when I walk into a
22:22
place that clearly doesn't have the personnel, the space, the
22:26
equipment, the, the setup, we'll say to do the nasturtium and
22:33
the, you know, the, the, the broken white sauce, the what?
22:37
They don't have it, but they want to do it, right.
22:40
And, and that's a big piece of advice that I give to young
22:42
chefs. Go work in different places.
22:46
Shut up, make the money you need to make to just pay your bills,
22:51
whatever. Go work in a bunch of different
22:54
places. You can get those experiences so
22:55
that when you end up in the driver's seat, you have a very
22:58
clear understanding of what not only you are capable of, but
23:01
what you as a team are capable of.
23:04
My rise and fall happened mainly because I thought I just
23:09
expected everybody to be on the same page.
23:13
And while my business was small enough for me to pull everybody
23:18
onto the same page. Not saying anybody's worse than
23:19
me or they didn't work hard or they didn't care.
23:21
But at some point, if, if your vision's kool-aid right, at some
23:28
point that kool-aid starts to get diluted a little bit when
23:30
there's not as much of you to go around.
23:33
And I truly undervalued, which I will never do again because I
23:37
lost a lot of confidence. I undervalued the value of my
23:41
presence in my buildings. What?
23:45
Do you mean? You'd mentioned Marco Pierre
23:49
White earlier. Yeah, He speaks on it pretty
23:53
candidly. He told Michelin to take their
23:56
stars back because he said I think that if, if, if I have the
24:00
stars or if the restaurant's going to bear my name or
24:02
whatever, I have an obligation to my clients to be in that
24:06
restaurant. I can tell you unequivocally
24:10
when I had just one or two or maybe even up to three places,
24:14
my stores ran beautifully because I could be there a lot
24:18
more. Once it got past two, if I'm
24:19
being even more honest, once it got past two, it started to get
24:23
away from me, right. I'm not saying that there's
24:27
anything wrong with if you don't need to be in your business
24:31
everyday and it runs fine, great.
24:33
But what I wanted from my restaurants was I wanted the
24:37
Pike mousse, I wanted the perfectly seared scallop.
24:41
I wanted the, you know, French onion soup with the coffee, you
24:47
know, And I assumed that everybody cared as much as I
24:57
cared. And it's not wrong that they
24:59
didn't. They didn't stand to benefit in
25:01
the same way that I did. They weren't ending up on the
25:04
front of a magazine. They weren't getting that kind
25:06
of money. They weren't being offered TV
25:08
deals. They cared because we had a
25:13
relationship. As there was less and less of me
25:16
being seen, that relationship is now starting to dilute.
25:25
And I think there's people, they say people don't leave jobs,
25:32
they leave bad supervisors. I think that as I started to
25:36
dilute myself, I had started to lose a lot of confidence because
25:40
I wasn't in control. And as chefs, what do we die
25:42
for? We die to be in control.
25:44
And as I started to spread myself, I think that maybe I
25:47
didn't my, my dreams are bigger than my bandwidth.
25:52
I think I said this to you before and everybody just wasn't
25:55
on the same page. And that doesn't make them bad
25:56
people. That doesn't mean that they did
25:58
anything wrong. I was so stressed and so
26:00
insecure because I knew I was barely holding it together.
26:03
I was a different person than the person these guys set out to
26:06
work for. Did you have anyone at that time
26:09
with you like you know your ride or die while you're going
26:12
through all of this? I did, but I, I, I think I made
26:22
the mistake of pushing them away because when there's that much
26:28
attention on you and you know the real story, you know that
26:33
like, man, I'm, I'm working, I'm working 16 hours a day just to
26:37
hold this together. I'm not cooking because I'm
26:40
running from the bank to the lawyer's office to make sure
26:43
that I can pay the insurance company to, to making sure that
26:46
I got enough cash in the bank for payroll.
26:50
I know on the inside, I'm not the person that this person set
26:54
out to work with or work for. Now, I had people who cared
26:58
about me desperately who hated to see what was happening, but
27:01
what could they do? So for me, you know, you get to
27:06
a place where I'll just talk by myself.
27:10
I got to a place where it was like it was me versus everybody.
27:15
Instead of letting my foot off the gas a little bit and being
27:18
like, OK, let me embrace what these people are here to do.
27:22
Let them let free them to make mistakes.
27:25
Let them do the best that they know how to do.
27:30
But I mean, you learn a lot. You learn a lot more through
27:32
failure than you through through through success.
27:35
Completely agree. I think back to a moment when I
27:39
was partner in this restaurant and I had one of my sous chefs
27:44
and she came up to me one day and she's like, Oh my God, my
27:47
mom saw you in the paper. I was like, oh, yeah, cool.
27:49
I was like, I didn't even realize that.
27:51
And she put it up. She put it up like on our
27:53
bulletin board, right? And and she's like, why didn't
27:56
you tell us? I was like, I don't know, like
27:58
I'm in the fucking paper every other day.
28:00
Like, I don't care. It's just, it's another
28:02
interview. It's another TV show that I got
28:04
to go cook. And I'll never forget how she
28:07
made me feel with what she said next.
28:10
She said, but that's the problem.
28:11
She says, we care because we work for you.
28:14
We're proud of it. And the fact that you don't
28:16
care, how does that, how do you think that makes us feel?
28:19
And I remember at like a like, it fucking hit me.
28:21
I was like, damn, she's right. And I think the, the, the lesson
28:24
there is if you're going to be the guy, yeah, you got to be the
28:27
fucking guy. Yeah.
28:29
And, and for me, I had stopped being the guy because I felt so
28:34
defeated. I stopped being the guy.
28:37
And, and I shouldn't say yeah, I stopped being the guy.
28:40
I, I was, I wasn't this vibrant, energetic, dependable, even
28:46
person that that that these people could really rely on
28:50
because I had done too much. I let my ego get too big.
28:52
And I just assumed that I could handle this and handle this and
28:54
handle this and handle that. And then the reality of, hey,
28:57
the walk in went down here and you have payroll this week and
29:01
you have this other brand new restaurant that's talking about
29:04
30% less business than it should be doing.
29:06
And you know, you have a labor case at this other one that you
29:10
got to get handled. I mean, I, I think when all of
29:13
that came down on me, the reality of all that coming down
29:17
on me, it just, it, it really affected how I showed up to that
29:21
staff, to those people. When do you decide it's time to
29:25
make a change? Like when, when you come to that
29:27
decision that it's time to make a change and how difficult is it
29:30
when, how difficult is it to then act upon that decision?
29:38
I realized that if I was going to keep going that I would.
29:44
I would be running that business as a shadow of how I intended
29:48
it. I always prided myself on paying
29:51
people the best salary that I could pay them, treating people
29:55
that as well as I could possibly treat them.
29:58
I ran. I ran that business because I
30:01
wanted to be a phenomenal employer.
30:06
When I felt those things going by the wayside, the the
30:10
principles on which I had started, whether it was the
30:13
food, the service, when I felt all that going away and I
30:17
started feeling like the restaurants were becoming less
30:20
and less and less and less of a place that I was really proud to
30:24
be inside of, then I was like, all right, right.
30:27
Now I've got a reputation. I've I've I've I've people know
30:31
I can cook. The restaurants are generally
30:34
full. Now is a good time to, like, do
30:37
it. Seinfeld did.
30:37
Drop the mic. Fuck off, find my next thing.
30:40
Yeah, how how difficult is it is first of all, what people don't
30:44
realize because everyone wants to open up a restaurant.
30:47
You talk to any I want to open up a restaurant.
30:49
Like do you, you say you do, Do you really?
30:51
But anyway, no one ever talks about about closing a
30:54
restaurant, how difficult that is.
30:57
I know when we closed, I mean, I, and so I've closed
31:01
restaurants, but I've also closed a hotel during COVID and
31:04
that was also extremely difficult.
31:07
And I'm not just talking about like the, the emotions that go
31:09
into closing something down, but like all the food is still
31:14
there. People are starting to steal
31:15
shit. The TV's are, you know, the,
31:18
the, the disgruntled busboy is like trying to take the TV off
31:21
the wall because you're not going to pay me, right.
31:23
So there's a, it does get kind of ugly.
31:26
And so there is a certain, there needs to be certain measures in
31:33
place when you're closing down a restaurant because there's a,
31:35
there's AI, hate to say there's a right way and a wrong way to
31:37
do it, but where am I going with this?
31:45
Do you tell people or do you not tell people?
31:46
Is that what you mean? I mean, yeah, I mean that
31:49
that's, that's a very, that's a very, that's a very
31:52
controversial thing to talk about is do you tell people or
31:54
do you don't? And you don't have to answer
31:55
that. No, you tell people.
31:56
You do tell them. When do you tell them though?
31:57
You tell people. What do you tell them when you
32:00
when you make the decision? Or do you tell them when it's
32:03
already in motion? I did what I thought was best.
32:05
I let people know, if I'm not mistaken, I think for the most
32:09
part, we let everybody know about a week out, wherever it
32:11
was possible, wherever. I really had control over the
32:13
situation. But the truth of the matter was,
32:15
I think people saw the writing on the wall.
32:16
I mean, we were bouncing checks. I mean, I was towards the end, I
32:20
was running to Restaurant Depot twice a week because I couldn't
32:22
order from purveyors, you know, people.
32:27
And this is the first time I have spoken about this since it
32:29
happened. So I'm, I'm going to be really
32:31
painfully honest and I think there anybody who's been in the
32:34
restaurant business in this country or in any country know
32:36
what that looks like when you close a restaurant, chances are
32:43
you're on 30 day terms with your vendors.
32:47
You might have the money, you're on a lease that's got some
32:52
personal guarantees on it, whether it's limited personal
32:55
guarantee or a long term personal guarantee.
32:57
You've got some guarantees there that you need to sort out.
33:00
You've got taxes that you got to pay.
33:03
You've got everybody's final payroll.
33:05
Now mind you, if you're closing a restaurant, it's not because
33:07
it was full to the rafters. Right.
33:10
So you were struggling to make payroll before?
33:12
And realistically, you probably should close it two months
33:14
before you're actually closing a. 150% yeah.
33:18
And it, it bothers me so much. I wear my stories on my sleeve.
33:27
I don't care what you're going to say to me that's not on the
33:29
paper. I mean, at least, you know, I do
33:31
have the decency of asking me and I'll tell you the truth, but
33:36
I, it bothers me so much when I see people get needlessly
33:40
dragged by the media. Maybe there are some really
33:44
shitty bosses out there. Maybe there are, you know, maybe
33:46
there are some really, really shitty owners out there that do
33:48
really, really terrible things. But I, I can only speak for
33:51
myself. I went to culinary school, I
33:55
didn't go to Business School. I did the best I knew how to do
34:00
with the resources that I had, which in my opinion is pretty
34:03
fucking good. You know, we open 6 restaurants
34:05
over the course of 15 years. We open 6 restaurants very well
34:10
reviewed. They all did pretty good.
34:13
It just got bigger than I could manage at some point.
34:16
But when somebody closes a restaurant and then they get
34:19
dragged by the media and then people jump in the comments.
34:23
Oh, they this, oh, they that. Oh, they, whatever.
34:26
You have no idea what you're talking about.
34:29
It doesn't bother me so much because I have made myself
34:32
available for public consumption through my Instagram, through
34:35
TV, through whatever else. So you're allowed to have an
34:37
opinion about me. I don't care.
34:39
I'm the strain's gonna keep on rolling.
34:42
But it bothers me when I see other independently owned
34:46
businesses, you know, that, that really operate with a lot of
34:50
love and a lot of integrity for their team, for their staff.
34:52
And then, you know, people jump out there and they have the most
34:54
awful things to say. And then you have the, the
34:56
reporters that are looking for the gotcha moment, right?
34:59
They're combing through the, the, the, the, the court cases
35:03
or the whatever, try to find a way to like, get the last bit of
35:06
marrow out of this thing that you've given your entire
35:09
existence to. That's my.
35:15
Yeah, it's, it's tough. It's not for the faint of heart.
35:17
I think a lot of people that want to open restaurants, yeah,
35:24
work in a restaurant 1st. Like.
35:26
Like like, like run someone else's restaurant.
35:28
Make sure make sure you learn as much as you can because the the
35:33
cooking needs to be on autopilot.
35:34
You have to, you have to be comfortable making decisions in
35:38
someone else's business. You're hired as let's say you're
35:41
hired as the executive chef. You have to be comfortable
35:43
putting the burger on the menu because if you're not
35:46
comfortable putting the burger on the menu in someone else's
35:48
restaurant, like are you going to be able to do it when it's
35:50
your? Restaurant 100%.
35:51
Yeah, but when you want to, I just want to make broken green
35:54
and white oil with crudo. Yeah, if if I could pick your
35:59
brain a little bit because a lot of people listen to this who
36:01
want to open restaurants. The fact that you opened many.
36:07
The first question I have is, I want to open up a restaurant.
36:11
Where do I get the capital? Where do you, where did you
36:14
start because you said you did it all alone.
36:16
How did you first start getting all the capital to open these
36:19
restaurants? So my first one, I, I got the
36:22
money from family and that kind of set the stage for everything
36:26
else. I did take a loan for the Duck
36:29
Duck Goose in Baltimore. But aside from those two, right
36:35
where I I took some initial seed money, the restaurants made the
36:39
money for the restaurants, which was a huge mistake, by the way.
36:42
Don't do that. Explain why.
36:44
Because the issue with doing that is when you have a bad day
36:48
in one restaurant, you're taking from another restaurant to pay
36:52
for the bad day that that restaurant just had.
36:54
Well, guess what? The thing about restaurants is,
36:55
they all fucking have bad days. So now when you're when you're
36:59
taking, when you're borrowing from Peter to pay Paul,
37:01
eventually Peter's going to run out of money and now Paul owes
37:05
money to Peter and Peter is going to go borrow money from
37:08
John. And, and, and I think that chef
37:11
mentality of just get through it, just get through it.
37:14
Put out the fire deal with this refire that, that, OK, I'll get,
37:18
I can get through this. I'm strong enough, I'm smart
37:20
enough, I can get through this. I just got to make it through
37:22
this day to the next day. And, and, and that was a huge, I
37:26
mean, that was a big part of the reason things kind of felt felt
37:28
the way that they did. And what advice would you give
37:31
to people? So you see we talked a little
37:34
bit about raising capital and raised.
37:36
Twice as much as you think you need.
37:37
Raised twice as much and then raised.
37:38
Twice as much more. OK.
37:40
And what else would you say? Like what are some important
37:41
things? Like before you even think about
37:43
doing this, make sure you have these ducks in a row.
37:48
If you're thinking about opening a restaurant, first ask yourself
37:52
why. What is it that if it's money?
37:56
Chef, I want to make my food. I'm just kidding.
37:59
That's that's the that's what I but Chef, I just want to do my
38:01
food. OK, Yeah.
38:04
How? Write me down your food.
38:07
Write. Make me a list of 50 things that
38:09
are your food and then tell me how much they cost.
38:11
And then tell me how many people you need to make them.
38:14
If you can't do it, wait, wait. You can get your laurels with
38:20
somebody else's money. If you are good enough and you
38:24
know enough about the business, you can earn your stripes, you
38:27
can get your publicity. You can accomplish all those
38:29
things with somebody else's money.
38:32
Yeah. And I don't mean that to say
38:34
take advantage of somebody else, but if you work hard in whatever
38:38
organization that you were in, you will find a higher pedestal
38:41
and then you will find a higher pedestal and then you will find
38:43
a higher pedestal. But if that is your if that is
38:45
your answer, if I want to cook my food, OK, do 20 pop ups, do
38:50
20 pop ups, they sell out every pop up, right?
38:53
And use that money to put towards your own PR.
38:56
And if you're really getting juice, the world is going to
38:58
tell you if you're good or not good.
39:00
Right. If you suck, I'm sorry to say
39:04
this. If you're this is going to piss
39:06
some people off, No, go ahead. But I'm going to say it.
39:09
You know, I've sat with chefs and restaurant tours that have
39:12
told me, you know, yeah, you know, we never get a review or
39:15
this. We never get this or we never
39:17
get that yet because it fucking sucks.
39:19
Or it's just not even if it doesn't suck, it's just not that
39:22
good. I get so angry with people
39:25
whether and it could be in any field.
39:26
It could be athletics, it could be music, it could be food.
39:31
People that have this whole this like, OK, well, it should just
39:34
come to me now because I'm good. You know how many people are
39:37
good? Yeah, think about.
39:40
Just ask them. Just 100%, yeah.
39:43
And I mean, think about how many people that you see.
39:45
Well, we can scroll on TikTok or Instagram right now.
39:46
How many good singers are we going to see?
39:48
How many good chefs are we going to see?
39:50
We're going to see some really talented people that you will
39:53
never hear about. Someone messaged me and they
39:57
said I'm thinking about, I think they wanted to open up a food
40:00
truck and like, you know, what advice would you give me?
40:02
For what is your advice on food trucks?
40:04
By the way, I'll I'll tell you this is exactly what I told the
40:06
guy. I said before you go buy a food
40:09
truck for 60K, buy a $300 Yeti, fill it up with whatever you're
40:14
trying to sell. And if you can't sell out the
40:16
$300 Yeti, you're welcome for saving you 60 K.
40:21
That's what's my advice. And you can't sell out the
40:23
fucking Yeti. You're not going to sell out the
40:25
food truck. And to your point, if you can't
40:26
sell out your pop up, you shouldn't be opening up a
40:28
restaurant. 100%. Yeah, sell out the pop up
40:32
consistently. Have a fucking line out the
40:34
door. The demand has to be there.
40:35
Yeah, yeah, be smart. You're don't go raise $1,000,000
40:39
if you can't sell fucking 10 tickets to your pop up.
40:41
Yeah. And you know, I'll talk about my
40:43
just a little bit of that. My people expect to get things
40:47
so quickly. Yeah, bro, it was 567 years
40:56
maybe before I really started getting juice from a media
41:00
standpoint. And when I say 567 years, I mean
41:03
I'm opening, I'm closing, I'm working at night, I'm running a
41:07
restaurant depot, I'm running the parties.
41:12
I I mean, you name it. I had great people around me.
41:15
Don't get me wrong. I, I have in my life been
41:18
privileged to work with some of the most doting, capable, kind
41:26
human beings that any man could. That I mean that, that has been
41:30
my blessing. That being said, you know I, I,
41:34
I busted my ass, lost it more than once before anybody give a
41:44
shit to write anything about me? Everyone, everyone loves you
41:49
when you're on Top Chef. I mean, yeah, no one loved when
41:52
you're on Bottom. Oh, yeah, She got the Dick
41:53
right. Yeah.
41:54
She was never that good. Oh, yeah, for sure.
41:56
Yeah. Yeah.
41:57
So you're in France right now. Well, not right now, but you you
41:59
just came back from France. You're here.
42:01
You're here for a brief stint. I'm I'm here right now.
42:03
I'm going back. Yeah, how's that?
42:06
Take everything you know about restaurants and turn it on it's
42:08
head. Yeah, what?
42:09
What did you see over there that that we're doing wrong here?
42:12
I'm not gonna say we're doing it wrong.
42:14
I'll say we're doing differently.
42:16
Yeah, I see chefs to cook. Yeah, I see chefs whose pictures
42:23
on the website and their faces on the pass.
42:25
Yeah. Cooking and that was a huge aha
42:29
moment for me. I see, how do I say this?
42:41
I see the same passion for hospitality and service that I
42:46
think guys like you and I got into this for.
42:51
I see less gimmick, more grit. Define that a little bit.
42:59
You ever walked into a restaurant and knew what you're
43:00
going to get before you even sat down?
43:02
Sure, that happened to you a lot here.
43:07
Not a lot. Well, it doesn't happen very
43:09
much over there either. So the good restaurants deliver
43:15
as promised. They're not trying to bowl you
43:20
over with the smoke and mirrors. It's less Instagram food curse
43:27
traps, correct? Yeah.
43:29
Correct. And you may never hear about
43:31
them and they're OK with it. You may never walk through their
43:34
doors and they're OK with it. I see cooking and they call it
43:43
restoration there, but it's restaurant thing being treated
43:48
as the way you would treat like a, a Craftsman and treated with
43:55
the same reverence and respect at a, at a higher level.
43:59
I mean, of course you have your, there's a brasserie every two
44:01
steps and the chicken cordon Bleu is probably frozen, sort of
44:04
the fries. And those are the tourist traps
44:06
that you fall into. It's also been nice to
44:10
experience a different kind of client, a client that that is
44:17
very appreciative. Not saying that the clients here
44:20
aren't appreciative, but are, are very vocal about their
44:24
appreciation there. I, I, I found that small efforts
44:30
are very, are, are really rewarded by the clients there
44:33
and even by restaurant ownership.
44:36
They, they realize that culinary talent is not easy to come by.
44:41
There's a lot of people out there that say, oh, I'm a chef.
44:43
Oh, I can go and then they accept that.
44:46
But but if you're good, they really they go out of their way
44:50
to recognize the fact that you have an ability And also one
44:53
thing there that's been very different than here assuming I
44:59
was working over there. Apparently you have to have a
45:04
visa to be able. To work over.
45:05
You weren't working over there. You're.
45:06
Just no touristing. I was just touristing.
45:09
But I've noticed in restaurants that when things get put on the
45:15
menu, I'm sure it's not this way at a very high level, but it's
45:18
it's a consensus. Everybody comes together,
45:22
something gets put together, chef put something together and
45:26
they all talk about it. They talk about the highs of it,
45:29
the lows of it, the to service, how it shows up on the table.
45:32
And it could be something as simple as a tuna tataki.
45:38
And that's been really nice to experience that feeling of OK,
45:46
it's it's us, not, not US versus them.
45:49
That's in front of the house versus the back of the house,
45:50
right? It's it.
45:51
This is, this is how we all represent ourselves.
45:54
How what were you, Paris? Yeah, yeah.
45:57
How were the ingredients? How was the quality of
45:59
ingredients? I mean, listen, I can tell you
46:01
there is this is a totally different conversation, but I
46:06
mean, there's something seriously broken with our food
46:08
here. Why do you say that?
46:10
I'll just talk about my own personal experience.
46:12
Sure, you know me. I'm pretty careful about what I
46:15
eat and well, I am and I'm not. But man, I've been living over
46:20
there for the past 3-4 months. Never once have I felt bloated.
46:24
Never once have I felt any form of indigestion.
46:26
Never once have I felt like that weird kind of like uncomfortable
46:29
gassy feeling you get after you eat.
46:30
And I eat homie, like I eat. I got here within 24 hours.
46:35
I was on Pepcid again. I was on gas tax or whatever.
46:39
Like just to make myself feel a little bit better.
46:43
I strangely enough, I lost weight.
46:45
I ate more when I was there, but I lost weight, my body got
46:48
leaner. I don't know what the answer is
46:51
and I'm not going to pretend to, but it's it's a really I felt it
46:59
like emotionally I felt better, just my headspace was better.
47:02
I mean, a lot of your dopamine, serotonin, it comes from your
47:04
gut. Sure.
47:09
The quality of ingredients that you get there.
47:11
I mean are it's exceptional. I mean, we got, we got whatever.
47:18
They got. They got black pasta with A and
47:22
it was as good as anything that you would find anywhere, you
47:24
know, here, I shouldn't say here, but it was it was really,
47:27
really good, you know, or I I, you know, I remember they did a
47:32
gazpacho one day and tomatoes came in and I didn't have one
47:36
mealy shitty tomato. I mean, granted, I ordered it in
47:40
season, but it's really nice. And, and it's also been nice to,
47:49
like, retrain my palate a little bit because as chefs, you know,
47:54
how often does somebody have you taste something and you do this
47:58
because it doesn't have enough salt?
47:59
Yeah, Yeah. You know, the from what I've
48:03
observed over there, the French have very delicate palates and
48:06
they don't salt the shit out of everything.
48:08
And if something is going to, if you're going to do like a white
48:10
asparagus dish, it better taste like white asparagus, right?
48:16
I There's somebody who works at a place that I spent a little
48:21
time in, and if you could give Michelin stars to pallets, this
48:27
human being would have 3. Really.
48:31
And that's been really nice to experience as a chef.
48:35
Is it? I went over there to to kind of
48:37
bookend it. I said, OK, what am I going to
48:41
do here? Right.
48:42
What what's what's next for me here?
48:43
I can keep consulting at people's restaurants and, and,
48:48
and waiting for the next thing to come through.
48:50
And then thought about it and I was like, you know, I just want
48:55
to be a better chef. As long as you're good at what
48:58
you do, the money stuff figures itself out.
49:02
So how do I go get better? Not saying that there wasn't
49:05
somewhere I could have gone here, but I I needed to remove
49:07
myself from the situation for a little while, get back to
49:09
feeling good. And for me, I figured, you know,
49:13
if I was, you know, if I was going to be Steph Curry, who do
49:16
I want to play for? Right.
49:18
So I I went over and it's been great.
49:20
I mean to who says it? The Jiro dreams of is it Jiro?
49:26
No, no, no. Who's the chef that said it?
49:30
It's either Jiro or Nope. You can edit this however you
49:37
want but there is a shot. I want to say it might have even
49:38
been Roshan. To make delicious food, you have
49:40
to eat delicious food. Yeah, if.
49:44
You want to make the best radish dish that you can make.
49:47
Go eat some really good radishes.
49:51
And for me, that that was the goal.
49:53
Yeah, yeah, we're losing that a little bit here in the in, in
49:57
the States. How do we get it back?
49:59
You know, that's part of what that's why I rant about it so
50:01
much on the podcast. It's like, how do we, how do we
50:03
get back to cooking delicious food?
50:07
If you had no incentive structure and you were just
50:10
cooking for someone, would it be different?
50:15
You know what I mean? Like it would be completely
50:17
different if I invited you over to my house.
50:19
I wouldn't cook for you the way I'd cook in the restaurant
50:21
because I feel like that is playing the game.
50:23
You're playing the game a little bit in the restaurant.
50:25
If you came over, I'd have Palmelli go and a roasted
50:27
chicken and maybe a whole fish, some braised artichokes, maybe a
50:30
confibiality. That's what we'd eat.
50:32
Yeah, and I'd never leave. Yeah, right.
50:34
We'd have a good meal and, you know, for dessert we might just
50:37
have some, you know, a fresh fruit tart.
50:39
Yeah, that's it. And you know what we would
50:43
probably be happier than if we got this geeked out food, right?
50:49
I could. I could stay on that subject for
50:50
a long time and rant. So I won't because I I probably
50:53
rant about it too much. The other thing that's been cool
50:55
over there is to see the cream come out of my food, see the
50:57
butter come out of my food, and to just watch everything get
51:00
lighter. What do you mean?
51:04
So they're not cooking that much with with with cream and butter?
51:08
Very little. Very little.
51:10
One butter is expensive. Yeah, OK.
51:12
And I was so used to the kitchens here where it's like.
51:16
Mountain with Butter. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
51:18
Fucking grilled broccolini. Throw it in a pan real quick.
51:21
Butter, you know. Yeah, yeah.
51:24
And that's not the case there. And it's, it's, it's been great.
51:29
It's light in my palate. It's, it's, it's also from a
51:32
business standpoint, from a business owner standpoint,
51:34
because that's somebody who I am and who I will always be.
51:36
It has made it ringingly clear why I could not Why?
51:42
Why I did not see all the success that I wanted to see.
51:45
I did at a small level, but as soon as I grew, I couldn't still
51:50
be successful the way that I was running my businesses.
51:55
I think I wanted to be a chef that owned businesses.
51:58
I think that what I should have done is owned businesses and
52:02
found a really good chef. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's tough to
52:06
realize that, though. Yeah.
52:09
I want to ask you because you're, you're a big inspiration
52:13
for me as well, your health and Wellness journey.
52:17
Yeah. Because it's something that you
52:19
that you show. I think nowadays as a chef,
52:22
it's, it's very important. You know, I think when, when we
52:24
were coming up in kitchens, it was like, it was, it was
52:27
different. Like we didn't respect our
52:28
bodies the way we should have, right.
52:30
And, and in retrospect, I should have taken care of my back and
52:32
my feet and my knees and everything else a little bit
52:34
more if I had, if I had paid more attention.
52:38
But I think what you're doing, and I just did a podcast with
52:41
the guys from Humans of the Kitchen and they're doing this
52:44
whole 86 Wellness challenge. And I think that's so important.
52:48
Like what you're doing is incredible.
52:51
But what are some of the things that I guess what pushed you
52:54
into that? Like, because I mean, you're
52:56
taking it serious. Like like you're taking it
52:58
serious. I'm inspired, but I'm like, I'll
53:01
do it like I'll do like half the intensity that you're doing I.
53:06
Mean it helps. I have a lot of time with my
53:07
hands right now too, so that helps too.
53:08
I mean, it's, it's not, it's not always feasible, man.
53:12
I I think that cooking is an athletic event.
53:18
I agree. It's a, it's a, it's a athletic
53:21
sport. At, at at any level, you know, I
53:23
think that cooking is hard, back breaking work.
53:30
And for me, my goal has always been and, but I, I, I think I've
53:37
been successful. I always wanted to be the best
53:38
cook in my kitchen. And for me, that that meant
53:42
being faster, stronger, cleaner, nimbler.
53:49
They're the guys to my left and right.
53:54
You know how it is. You see a cook on the line,
53:56
you're like, that guy's got moves.
53:57
Yeah. Tony says it in his book.
53:58
Yeah, yeah. He kicks the.
54:00
You know what I mean? Yeah.
54:01
Bumps the yeah, yeah, yeah. They, they it's like it's, it's,
54:05
I like to call it kitchen karate.
54:06
Yeah, they have that fucking they, they just everything.
54:09
Yeah. Kitchen karate.
54:11
And and we, we it's so easy to live an unhealthy lifestyle.
54:17
Yeah. You know, how many times have
54:20
you gotten off of work? It's 11:30 at night.
54:21
There's nothing to eat except pizza.
54:24
Yeah, or a quick drive through. Let me get that burger. 100%
54:27
yeah. I wasn't going to stop eating
54:29
that. So I was like, the solution is I
54:32
got to, I got to get healthy. And also for me, for my mental,
54:36
you know, my mind struggles with mental health have been no
54:38
secret to anybody. I struggle with anxiety,
54:40
depression, thoughts of suicide. I've I've dealt with all of it.
54:44
And I have found that if I do something for my body every day,
54:52
I have a better day. And as chefs, we make chefs
54:59
business owners, we make so many commitments to other people, our
55:03
vendors, our staff, our our employees, our landlords, our
55:09
our clients that come in everyday expecting to have a
55:12
certain experience. We need to be able to make one
55:15
commitment to ourself. And why not that commitment be
55:18
our bodies? Yeah, I mean, my knees kill me.
55:24
My hands ache just randomly. I'll be sitting there and I feel
55:27
like I like, I almost can't catch my breath.
55:29
My hands hurt so bad, My elbow, my neck.
55:33
I mean, I'm not telling you anything you don't know.
55:36
No, I feel it, Yeah. And, and, and let's face it, as
55:42
a chef, there's not a lot of money in this.
55:45
So if I'm not going to make a lot of money and I'm going to
55:49
beat up my body, why not be my own insurance policy and take
55:52
care of that body and try to get longer shelf lifeout of this
55:55
career so I can make a little bit more money.
55:58
And also, you know, I think that, you know, chef means boss
56:03
in France and French chef. It does has nothing to do with
56:06
guy that can cook. Chef de cuisine is a guy that
56:09
can cook. Chef by itself means boss.
56:16
I you know how you here, if you get into attacks, you will say,
56:18
Hey, what's up boss? Right.
56:20
And there you can do a taxi. It'll be like Sebastia, what's
56:23
up boss? If you're going to be the boss,
56:28
look like the fucking boss. I'm not, I'm not saying that,
56:31
you know, everybody needs to have fucking 6 pack abs and you
56:34
know, be be, you know, ripped and whatever else.
56:37
But but there is a level of confidence that people get when
56:40
they can ascertain that you take care of yourself, right?
56:44
Showing up into a room, being physically fit, you will get a
56:48
different response from people than when you don't.
56:51
It's like, like I said, when someone comes up, chances have
56:54
you been working out? Yeah.
56:55
Like they fucking noticed. Yeah, they noticed.
56:58
They noticed. And it's like, OK, why?
57:00
Why you? Yeah, I have.
57:01
Thank you. Listen man, let's face it, look
57:03
at all the other benefits. You eat better, You sleep
57:05
better. You bone better.
57:09
Yeah, I have AI put this in one of my books.
57:13
Right. All right, so there's three
57:14
things you cannot lie about. There's only three things.
57:17
Yeah, food, fighting and fucking right.
57:21
You can't lie. Like you could say you could.
57:22
You could cook. But when they try your food,
57:24
they know. Right.
57:25
You could say you could fight until you get into a real fight.
57:27
Yeah, sure. Then people will know.
57:29
And then, you know, obviously in the bedroom people know.
57:31
Yeah, sure. And online, you know, let's face
57:32
it, you said fight. Let's face it, you know, the
57:34
kitchen is at a lot of levels. The kitchen is a very hormonally
57:42
driven environment, you know, And it it, it can if it's busy.
57:47
I'm not saying it's violent like people are punching each other
57:49
in the face, but it can be a physically violent on your body,
57:53
on your brain. Being of sound body really,
57:56
really helps. Also, I'm a sure dude, if I'm
58:00
coming down the line, I want you to feel me coming before I'm
58:02
coming, right? Yeah, no, and and you're, you're
58:07
100% right. Like you, I tell people like
58:09
when I come into the kitchen, do a pop up with me, I'm like, I'm
58:12
not in kitchen shape like and and I know that doesn't sound
58:16
because everyone, most of our audience is in kitchen shape.
58:19
Take a month off, you'll get you get out of kitchen shape real
58:22
quick. Oh yeah, for sure.
58:23
When I went to Paris, yeah. Oh, bro, I was, I was real comfy
58:26
being the owner for a while. Luckily I worked out, you know,
58:29
as I was in OK shape, but I had nothing to do with kitchen
58:31
shape. Yeah, had nothing to do with
58:33
kitchen shape. As soon as I had to pull that
58:35
big lexan off the top shelf, I was like, OK, there she goes.
58:38
Yeah, you know, and, and yeah, I mean it's.
58:40
Stand on your feet for 12. Yep.
58:42
Yeah. When was the last time you did
58:43
that? I haven't done that in a while.
58:45
But Chef, when we start wrapping up a podcast, I like to pick
58:48
your brain a little bit and get some, you know, let's let's
58:50
talk, let's talk your workstation.
58:52
OK, you're setting up your workstation.
58:54
What's your What is your finishing salt on your
58:58
workstation? Meldon Meldon, I like the
59:01
texture. Yeah.
59:02
What about kosher salt? What's your all-purpose work
59:04
salt? Is it kosher or Azure?
59:06
Yeah. Is it Diamond Crystal or is it
59:08
Morton Diamond? Crystal OK.
59:10
Just making sure, yeah, you. But I will say, since I've been
59:13
overseas, Diamond crystal's not a thing.
59:16
So what are these? Sea salt.
59:17
The real fine salt. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
59:18
So I was salting the shit out of things for the first couple
59:20
weeks and they have this little salty, yeah, but I mean, take a
59:24
little bit, get used. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
59:26
It's funny, most people that come from Danielle use the the
59:29
really fine, right? Because that's what that's what
59:31
they use. What about tape?
59:34
Are you a tape? Cut it straight or no?
59:36
I'm tape cut it with a knife or cut it with scissors.
59:39
No tape cutters. No tape cutter.
59:41
No, cuz it just takes up space. Yeah, what about green or green
59:44
tape? Blue tape.
59:45
I prefer green tape. You prefer green?
59:46
I prefer green. Tape Team Green, OK.
59:48
Unless I'm working in a place that has where the walk in's
59:50
downstairs, Yeah, and the kitchen's upstairs.
59:53
If it's kitchen prep, yeah. And it lives in the kitchen.
59:57
Blue tape. If it's walk in prep like Lexan,
1:00:00
things like that, then it's green tape.
1:00:01
But that's if I'm being like real psycho.
1:00:02
Why is that? Cuz green ground, blue sky.
1:00:06
Hey. I take the way I take.
1:00:09
Hey, no, that's good. I've never heard that, so that's
1:00:10
good to know. What about your finishing acid
1:00:14
if you had a general like and of course maybe it's it's dish.
1:00:17
Yeah, but is it lemon? Is it lemon squeezers?
1:00:20
Is it vinegars? Is it?
1:00:22
Yes, I keep a few lemon cheeks. Yeah, I I think it brightens
1:00:25
things up. Really, really if it's.
1:00:26
Lemon. Or do you use all types of
1:00:27
citrus? Lemon specifically.
1:00:29
Yeah. If you had like, one thing that
1:00:32
you do in the kitchen, it's like more people should do this.
1:00:35
Like this enhances flavor. This is a really good technique
1:00:37
that a lot of people don't, don't do.
1:00:39
What is that one thing? Taste your food.
1:00:44
I mean, that sounds really obvious.
1:00:45
Wouldn't taste your food. But the other thing that I, I do
1:00:48
a lot is I will maybe a lot of people do this, but I feel like
1:00:52
I, I'm constantly teaching people to do it.
1:00:54
Yeah, I keep water on my station.
1:00:58
Like to dilute stuff? Either to dilute it or just to
1:01:00
bring it back a little bit, or just to round it out a touch.
1:01:04
I I keep water. On my like a little squeeze
1:01:05
bottle, just a little squeeze. I do the same thing.
1:01:07
You know what I call it? I call it my swanee water.
1:01:09
Yeah, that really. Yeah, because I mean, the
1:01:11
difference between having to throw something away, Yeah, or
1:01:14
start over or like a even a risotto, right?
1:01:16
Like just just a few drops of water, you bring it right back.
1:01:21
You don't have to rework that whole thing, right?
1:01:22
You know, you can take it all the way there, set it to the
1:01:25
side, keep it warm for a second, few drops of water, give it a
1:01:27
shake. We're good to go.
1:01:28
Yeah, yeah, Your sauce went down too far.
1:01:30
A little drop of water, a little drop of water, right, Right.
1:01:32
You need to emulsify a little bit more butter into those
1:01:34
potatoes. A.
1:01:34
Little drop of water 100. Percent right, Right.
1:01:36
Yeah, I'm with you on the water. I definitely do that.
1:01:39
What's your plate wipe? My plate wipe.
1:01:42
Good question. I use vodka and I use chick
1:01:46
towel or torque towel right cut them and then I roll them.
1:01:49
Well, first I I soak them and then I roll them because they're
1:01:52
easier to roll after they're. Soaked now do you do it or just
1:01:53
front of house? Do it.
1:01:55
I like doing it myself. I do like doing asking.
1:01:58
I, I do, I do like doing it. If I'm, if I'm working the past,
1:02:02
I just, it's like one of those Zen moments.
1:02:04
Like I love slicing onions. I love cutting mushrooms.
1:02:06
Yep. I love skimming stock.
1:02:08
Yep. And I love making plate wipes.
1:02:09
Yeah. I don't know why it's like.
1:02:11
It's just a super like it's, it's like such muscle memory,
1:02:14
you know what I mean? Like you go to a place.
1:02:16
Yeah. And also don't talk to me while
1:02:18
I'm doing. This Yeah, right, right, right,
1:02:19
right, right. What is?
1:02:21
What is your plate wipe? Same chicks owl.
1:02:24
Use a little bit of vinegar and water.
1:02:25
Yeah. Not vodka, because we all know
1:02:28
history. Yeah, I was, I was.
1:02:30
I had, I had a guy on the other day, Barclay Dodge, he's got
1:02:32
Bosque restaurant in Aspen. He worked at Al Bully and he
1:02:35
told me that the way that there's one bottle in the
1:02:38
kitchen that's always red tape and that's all the liquor for
1:02:40
the plate wipes, That was an elbulli thing.
1:02:41
I was like, oh, that's kind of cool.
1:02:42
Like I've never, I've never seen the red tape thing.
1:02:44
But I was like, yeah, I was like, OK, so maybe that picks up
1:02:47
in other kitchens. Chef, if you had a chef's PSA
1:02:49
out there for people, what would it be?
1:02:53
A chef's public service announcement.
1:02:58
Probably the one piece of advice that has served me better than
1:03:00
any other. Just be a good cook.
1:03:10
I know that's difficult to digest for people in today's day
1:03:13
of money and bills and whatever else, but be a good cook.
1:03:18
If you don't have the time to invest in yourself to be a good
1:03:22
cook, you will never be a good chef.
1:03:27
Be a good cook. Being a good cook means a lot of
1:03:30
things, But. But also that you're open to
1:03:32
learn and that you're open to criticism.
1:03:34
You don't know what you don't know.
1:03:36
I don't know what I don't know. I've never had your food.
1:03:39
And I know that you don't know what you don't know.
1:03:41
Yeah. If you are the kind of person
1:03:46
that can't be told, that always thinks you know better, this is
1:03:49
not the right job for you. Yeah.
1:03:52
If you had a Mount Rushmore of chefs out there, you're you're 4
1:03:55
chefs that deserve to be on Mount Rushmore.
1:03:57
Who are they? Mark up here White.
1:04:00
Yep. Mario Batali.
1:04:11
He's an amazing chef. Danielle will dude.
1:04:23
Paulo Keys. Chef, where can people find you?
1:04:29
Instagram chef Ashish Albert. This has been fun, thank you.
1:04:32
We have to do it again for sure. Awesome brother.
1:04:36
Well, I hope you enjoyed the show.
1:04:37
You know what to do and make sure you leave five stars if
1:04:39
you're listening on Spotify or anywhere really.
1:04:41
If you're watching on YouTube, hit the like and subscribe
1:04:43
button. I'd completely revamped the
1:04:45
chef's PSA store, shop.chefspsa.com.
1:04:48
My team added a ton of new items.
1:04:51
I advise you to go check it out, Just peruse, look around, maybe
1:04:54
you see something nice that you like.
1:04:55
Keep supporting the show. Go to chefspsa.com You get
1:04:58
books, obviously the merch, early access to episodes on sub
1:05:02
stack and Spotify for premium members.
1:05:05
We'll see you next week. Hit the porno music.