Latest / Making Medicine / China’s Biotech Rise: Clinical Trials, Drug Development & U.S. Competition

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China’s Biotech Rise: Clinical Trials, Drug Development & U.S. Competition · Making Medicine

0:00
Speaker 1: The U.S. is number one in biomedical research in the
0:02
Speaker 1: world right now, and China is really working hard to
0:04
Speaker 1: catch up. They are playing to win.
0:26
Speaker 2: And if you put in protectionist measures and you are
0:29
Speaker 2: like coins and like biosecure and you're saying, you know,
0:33
Speaker 2: we're going to be conservative about this. We're going to
0:35
Speaker 2: try to slow other people down. We're no longer playing
0:38
Speaker 2: to win. We're playing to not win.
0:46
Speaker 3: Welcome back to the Making Medicine Podcast, where science, policy,
0:49
Speaker 3: and innovation meet. Grace Monster here, filling in for John,
0:52
Speaker 3: who's out seeing many of you all and speaking at
0:54
Speaker 3: the ISPOR conference in San Francisco. The president of China,
0:58
Speaker 3: Xi Jinping, is here in Washington this week for his
1:00
Speaker 3: first state visit in more than a decade, which makes
1:03
Speaker 3: it the perfect time to revisit one of our most
1:05
Speaker 3: popular conversations of the year. Back in June, John sat
1:09
Speaker 3: down with Tim Scott, president and CEO of Biocomp, who
1:13
Speaker 3: had just returned from a biotech delegation to Shanghai. Tim
1:16
Speaker 3: described what he saw there. Clinical trials moving faster than ours,
1:20
Speaker 3: huge patient registries, government-backed investment, and the large manufacturers increasingly
1:25
Speaker 3: willing to license their next breakthrough from Chinese labs. His
1:29
Speaker 3: takeaway was that the U.S. can't maintain our global leadership
1:32
Speaker 3: by playing defense alone. We win by investing in our science,
1:36
Speaker 3: our NIH, and our workforce. Here's John's conversation with Tim Scott.
1:41
Speaker 1: Tim, welcome to the show.
1:42
Speaker 2: It's good to be here. Thanks.
1:44
Speaker 1: Well, I want to get into, I'm not going to
1:45
Speaker 1: bury the lead. You're fresh off this incredible trip to China.
1:49
Speaker 1: China is so much in focus, and so I promise
1:52
Speaker 1: to our listeners we're going to get there. But for
1:55
Speaker 1: folks who don't know Biocom and your journey, let's maybe
1:59
Speaker 1: start there. Tell us a little bit about Biocom and
2:03
Speaker 1: what are you focusing on for California right now?
2:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for asking the question in that way, because
2:10
Speaker 2: a lot of the reason why I'm here is because
2:14
Speaker 2: of the journey that I've been on, which is 25
2:17
Speaker 2: years as a biotech entrepreneur. And that's both on the
2:21
Speaker 2: biotech sponsor side, but also on the services side. I've
2:26
Speaker 2: worked and founded companies in both areas. But that entire time,
2:31
Speaker 2: I was always a member of Biocomp. I was, for
2:37
Speaker 2: the last 16 years, have been a board member as well.
2:40
Speaker 2: And I really value the community aspect of what a
2:46
Speaker 2: trade organization brings. There's so many other pieces of what
2:50
Speaker 2: a trade organization brings with policy and group purchasing and
2:54
Speaker 2: the events. But the community aspect of it is just
2:58
Speaker 2: really important, especially for a startup entrepreneur. In some cases,
3:02
Speaker 2: you're totally by yourself. And you need this community to
3:06
Speaker 2: be supportive to help you kind of get through those
3:10
Speaker 2: challenging times. And so now that I'm on the other
3:13
Speaker 2: side running Biocom, having had that experience as opposed to
3:18
Speaker 2: coming in as a policy person, it's really gratifying for
3:22
Speaker 2: me because now I feel like I'm helping all the
3:27
Speaker 2: companies in our industry, all 1,800 member companies that we
3:30
Speaker 2: have as I take on different aspects of the policy
3:36
Speaker 2: and then support that we need to do for members.
3:39
Speaker 2: So super gratifying to be on that side and to
3:42
Speaker 2: just see every day what this industry is discovering and
3:48
Speaker 2: what they're achieving. I mean, you couldn't find a more
3:53
Speaker 2: fun job. And then at the same time, I probably
3:56
Speaker 2: came in at one of the most challenging times that
4:01
Speaker 2: you can imagine with a new administration. Coming off of
4:04
Speaker 2: the pandemic and the biotech winter financially that we've been through,
4:10
Speaker 2: you know, the things that we've been dealing with in
4:12
Speaker 2: terms of headwinds that include, you know, not only tariffs,
4:17
Speaker 2: but most favored nation, PBMs, 340B, RFK, I mean, you know,
4:25
Speaker 2: all of it. um, has been, uh, a challenge, but
4:28
Speaker 2: it also allows me to kind of step in and say, wow,
4:31
Speaker 2: now I need, now I know why I'm here.
4:33
Speaker 1: And how do you, you know, I was fortunate to
4:36
Speaker 1: see you in Washington just a couple of weeks ago. And,
4:41
Speaker 1: you know, there's probably an antiquated notion of state trade
4:46
Speaker 1: associations in any industry focusing, you know, in their backyard and,
4:51
Speaker 1: you know, Tim focus on making sure Sacramento is enabling
4:55
Speaker 1: this ecosystem. But definitely post-COVID, it's been critically important that
5:01
Speaker 1: states for whom their economy relies on the life sciences
5:05
Speaker 1: take on federal work. So what role does coming to
5:09
Speaker 1: Washington and trying to shape federal policy, how do you
5:12
Speaker 1: blend that with also bringing a California lens? And how
5:16
Speaker 1: do policymakers respond to the facts that California is really
5:21
Speaker 1: driving a lot of life sciences innovations?
5:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I want to acknowledge that there are trade
5:29
Speaker 2: organizations in almost every state, but most of them are
5:36
Speaker 2: one to three person operations. And they really do need
5:41
Speaker 2: the support of the larger organizations, whether it's bio or
5:44
Speaker 2: pharma or whether it's a group like Biocom who can
5:49
Speaker 2: step in and help support them because they're limited in
5:52
Speaker 2: their resources. And once again, I'm also very lucky in
5:56
Speaker 2: that we have a very large state just geographically. And
6:01
Speaker 2: so within that state, four very large clusters, life science
6:06
Speaker 2: clusters between the Bay Area and LA and San Diego
6:09
Speaker 2: and then Orange County with devices, you know, $ 400 billion
6:13
Speaker 2: of economic output there. And $ 400, 000 you know, employees with
6:23
Speaker 2: another million jobs supported, you know, six billion in NIH funding,
6:29
Speaker 2: 20 billion in venture capital, another 80 billion in private capital.
6:34
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just a big state and we have
6:36
Speaker 2: a lot going on. And I think I saw on
6:39
Speaker 2: your website that you have a policy lab and it's
6:42
Speaker 2: a term that I've been using here with our team
6:46
Speaker 2: as well to say, like, you know, we need to
6:48
Speaker 2: be a policy lab. We need to be out pushing
6:50
Speaker 2: people so that the smaller state organizations can grab this
6:55
Speaker 2: and utilize it. So I don't take that lightly, that
7:00
Speaker 2: leadership role that we have and that MassBio has and
7:04
Speaker 2: some of the larger state organizations that we have in that. So,
7:08
Speaker 2: you know, because we have the resources, we do have
7:10
Speaker 2: three people in Washington, D.C. that are very focused on
7:15
Speaker 2: what's happening at the federal level. And we have two
7:18
Speaker 2: people in the state capitol as well. And in all
7:21
Speaker 2: of those cases, again, the community matters. The more companies
7:26
Speaker 2: you can bring, the more stories you can bring to
7:29
Speaker 2: support the policies that we care about, the better. And
7:33
Speaker 2: I've noticed that legislators are very responsive to that. You
7:37
Speaker 2: come in as a small business owner and you're telling
7:40
Speaker 2: your story about the challenges that you have. They're very thoughtful.
7:44
Speaker 2: And the staff members especially, incredibly bright. They want to help.
7:49
Speaker 2: And so I've really found it a great experience to
7:52
Speaker 2: be able to go back to Washington, no matter who
7:54
Speaker 2: I'm talking to. Even if someone doesn't quite agree with me,
7:57
Speaker 2: they'll let me know and we'll say, like, let's sit
7:59
Speaker 2: down and talk about this and understand each other's point
8:02
Speaker 2: of view.
8:03
Speaker 1: Well, I think kudos to you and to Biocom for
8:06
Speaker 1: bringing another voice. There are large national orgs, but we
8:11
Speaker 1: just hear time and again from policymakers. They want to
8:14
Speaker 1: hear from everybody. So we talked a little bit about
8:17
Speaker 1: you coming here. East, let's talk a little bit, a
8:20
Speaker 1: slightly longer trip than you getting to DC is a
8:24
Speaker 1: trip to China. And you are just back from this
8:29
Speaker 1: incredible delegation that you led. Maybe start by telling us,
8:32
Speaker 1: where did this delegation come from? When did you wake
8:35
Speaker 1: up one morning and said, you know what, I need
8:36
Speaker 1: to take some of my members to China? Or, you know,
8:40
Speaker 1: I know Biocom travels internationally to keep its pulse on
8:45
Speaker 1: the international scene. So tell us a little bit about
8:47
Speaker 1: how this trip came to be, and then we'll get
8:49
Speaker 1: into what you saw.
8:51
Speaker 2: Two years ago at our Global Partnering and Investment Conference,
8:55
Speaker 2: we had five strategic pharma BD people that were on stage.
9:03
Speaker 2: And the question that came up was, where are you
9:05
Speaker 2: finding your deals right now? And the first one said,
9:10
Speaker 2: I just licensed two molecules out of China. And my
9:13
Speaker 2: ears perked up because then the next person said, oh,
9:16
Speaker 2: we have an office in China. And then the person
9:19
Speaker 2: next to them said, I'm getting ready to close a
9:22
Speaker 2: couple of deals. And then the last person in line said, oh,
9:27
Speaker 2: my God, I'm not in China and I need to
9:30
Speaker 2: figure out what I'm missing here. And it was a
9:33
Speaker 2: real wake up call for me. And at that moment,
9:36
Speaker 2: we really started engaging with our members and having discussions
9:39
Speaker 2: about what is happening in China. And and this is
9:42
Speaker 2: an organization in biocom. that has been deeply engaged in
9:46
Speaker 2: the Pacific Rim. We've had a 20-year relationship with folks
9:50
Speaker 2: in Japan, and we have an office in Tokyo, longstanding
9:53
Speaker 2: relationships with Australia and Korea and Taiwan. I mean, we
9:58
Speaker 2: really have spent the time and effort to develop those
10:01
Speaker 2: relationships because we know that all of those folks want
10:05
Speaker 2: to come to the U.S. market eventually. And coming to
10:07
Speaker 2: California is the easiest thing for them to do. And
10:12
Speaker 2: it also is the best landing point for them to
10:16
Speaker 2: come through California, whether they're having services done here, whether
10:19
Speaker 2: they're in a clinical trial here, whether they need support
10:22
Speaker 2: on their regulatory. We've always valued that relationship. We hadn't
10:26
Speaker 2: spent any time in China in the last 10 years.
10:30
Speaker 2: And so we had taken trips there, but we really
10:33
Speaker 2: had not spent a lot of effort there. When I
10:36
Speaker 2: heard that, I knew that things were changing pretty dramatically.
10:39
Speaker 2: And so we really dug in We started talking to
10:42
Speaker 2: a lot of the large pharma groups. And what we
10:46
Speaker 2: realized is that they were all in China already. They
10:48
Speaker 2: were way ahead of the curve on this. And a
10:51
Speaker 2: lot of that had to do with the fact that
10:54
Speaker 2: the Chinese had done such a good job of kind
10:56
Speaker 2: of moving drug development up the curve to the point
10:59
Speaker 2: where they were now doing really good science and a
11:04
Speaker 2: really good job with clinical trials. And they still maintained
11:08
Speaker 2: the ability to do it fast and to do it
11:10
Speaker 2: fairly inexpensively. The major pharmas recognize this. Now, if you
11:15
Speaker 2: look at Biocom's membership, only about 5% of our membership
11:19
Speaker 2: is major pharma. And then you've got midsize pharmaceutical companies,
11:26
Speaker 2: which have one or two products, and they're trying to
11:29
Speaker 2: build that pipeline. And then below that, the bottom 75%
11:33
Speaker 2: are 100 employees or less. And so what we realized
11:40
Speaker 2: was that the midsize pharma companies that are members and
11:44
Speaker 2: the smaller companies also knew about China, but they didn't
11:48
Speaker 2: know what to do about it. And so we came
11:51
Speaker 2: to them and said, look, who's interested in China? And
11:54
Speaker 2: the first meeting that we held about this was actually
11:57
Speaker 2: a luncheon at Bio in Boston. And we just wanted
12:03
Speaker 2: to understand kind of what everybody was thinking about this.
12:06
Speaker 2: And we facilitated a discussion about that. And three months later,
12:10
Speaker 2: we invited a group of people, members, whoever's interested in
12:15
Speaker 2: understanding China better, interested in going to China, just join
12:19
Speaker 2: us live or join us virtually. And 35 executives showed
12:25
Speaker 2: up to that meeting, 10 of which the dates were
12:29
Speaker 2: to be able to go with us to China after that.
12:32
Speaker 2: So there's a huge amount of interest, but just no
12:35
Speaker 2: understanding about how to go about it. I mean, these
12:37
Speaker 2: are folks that thought, I'll just buy a ticket to Beijing.
12:41
Speaker 2: And they would have been wrong because Beijing is probably
12:43
Speaker 2: not the first place you want to go. If you're
12:46
Speaker 2: going to China, you probably want to start in Shanghai.
12:51
Speaker 2: But we wanted to help them understand what's your criteria
12:56
Speaker 2: for for engaging with China. And that was what they
12:59
Speaker 2: needed support when it was coming up with a plan
13:02
Speaker 2: for that. And so if it was looking at drugs
13:05
Speaker 2: that they could license, in that case, what's the indication?
13:10
Speaker 2: What's the modality? What stage are you looking for? And
13:13
Speaker 2: what kind of deal terms are you interested in? And
13:18
Speaker 2: are you interested in, we have a bunch of folks
13:20
Speaker 2: that were interested in preclinical work or manufacturing. And then
13:23
Speaker 2: we had a pretty substantive group that was interested in
13:26
Speaker 2: clinical trials, and in particular, the investigator-initiated trials, which are
13:32
Speaker 2: run outside of the Chinese FDA in such a way
13:38
Speaker 2: that they're incredibly fast and very inexpensive and a great
13:43
Speaker 2: way to determine proof of concept in first-in-human. So, I mean,
13:48
Speaker 2: we can get as wonky about this as you want.
13:50
Speaker 2: It's fascinating to me But that's the reason folks wanted
13:55
Speaker 2: to head over there. And so we ended up with
13:57
Speaker 2: 10 companies that went with us for various reasons of
14:03
Speaker 2: which I just listed.
14:04
Speaker 1: I want to zoom out, but I'm actually going to
14:05
Speaker 1: zoom in first only because you mentioned IITs at the
14:08
Speaker 1: end there. And I think, you know, I was sitting
14:11
Speaker 1: in a policymaker meeting yesterday and a VC brought up
14:15
Speaker 1: that without an IIT, the company was going under and
14:19
Speaker 1: would have never had the capital to get through it.
14:22
Speaker 1: They've come up in other places. What is it about
14:26
Speaker 1: that you saw and these IITs that do make them
14:30
Speaker 1: so fast or so affordable and the proof of concept happens?
14:35
Speaker 1: And is there an IIT in the U.S. that we
14:40
Speaker 1: should be considering? Is there a parallel there? These IITs
14:46
Speaker 1: keep coming up, so I wonder if you can just
14:48
Speaker 1: dig a little deeper there.
14:49
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think, I mean, ultimately, at the end
14:51
Speaker 2: of this conversation, you ask me, where is this going?
14:53
Speaker 2: And really, we need to be thinking about how to
14:57
Speaker 2: compete better. And in doing that, we need to learn
15:00
Speaker 2: from what China's doing. What we saw with regard to
15:05
Speaker 2: these IITs is that prior to the IIT, there's this
15:09
Speaker 2: foundational network that exists of these cohorts of patients that
15:18
Speaker 2: are trial ready. And so the government has paid to
15:22
Speaker 2: have anybody that has cancer diagnosis of any type to
15:26
Speaker 2: get full workups. And this is all the testing and
15:30
Speaker 2: imaging that they need to do, any type of genomics
15:32
Speaker 2: work that they need to do. And they create these
15:35
Speaker 2: large 15,000, 20,000 person cohorts that are now trial ready.
15:41
Speaker 2: And so when you have a trial that gets teed up,
15:44
Speaker 2: they can draw from that cohort Very rapidly. Whereas in
15:50
Speaker 2: the U.S., what we tend to do is we set
15:52
Speaker 2: up the clinical trial. We set up different sites around
15:55
Speaker 2: the United States so that we can enroll as fast
15:58
Speaker 2: as possible. But we're waiting for the patients to come
16:02
Speaker 2: to those particular physicians. And we pick the best ones
16:05
Speaker 2: and the ones that see the most patients. But it
16:07
Speaker 2: still takes months to achieve this. By having these cohorts,
16:11
Speaker 2: they're able to draw these patients down immediately and start testing.
16:16
Speaker 2: The other thing that's very important about it is it's
16:18
Speaker 2: proof of concept. So this is not something that you
16:21
Speaker 2: would take to an IND with the FDA. It's also
16:27
Speaker 2: not something that you would utilize for an IND in China.
16:30
Speaker 2: It's just not scientifically rigorous enough for that from a
16:35
Speaker 2: regulatory perspective. But it does provide excellent scientific proof of
16:40
Speaker 2: concept for what you're trying to do. And if your
16:44
Speaker 2: goal is to try to decipher between 20 different bispecifics
16:50
Speaker 2: that you have for a particular application, you're able to
16:54
Speaker 2: put those into multiple IIT trials with five patients each,
17:00
Speaker 2: get a quick take on it, and then make a
17:02
Speaker 2: decision about where you want to go.
17:04
Speaker 1: I think this is critically important. And I love the
17:07
Speaker 1: way you delineated. This is not phase one in the
17:13
Speaker 1: way we think of clinical trials for an IND submission,
17:20
Speaker 1: it's almost a separate process of, is there anything here?
17:24
Speaker 1: And then I'm willing to go, like, it's a pass
17:27
Speaker 1: fail course before we got to go and get an
17:29
Speaker 1: A plus from the FDA or from another regulator. And
17:32
Speaker 1: I think sometimes in this conversation about China, we've collapsed
17:36
Speaker 1: it all into one. And I think it's really important
17:38
Speaker 1: to call out, no, no, there's a whole separate stream here.
17:42
Speaker 1: And that piece about patient registry and and being ready,
17:46
Speaker 1: being trial ready, that what China has developed is a
17:50
Speaker 1: way to pass fail before we get into the rigorous
17:54
Speaker 1: grading of just how quality safety efficacy is. So I
17:58
Speaker 1: think it's important that people take away from this that
18:01
Speaker 1: the data coming out of those IITs and the data
18:04
Speaker 1: being submitted to the FDA are different, but it does
18:09
Speaker 1: enable you to fail faster, which in our line of
18:11
Speaker 1: work is the name of the game.
18:13
Speaker 2: There's just so many reasons why this is a good
18:17
Speaker 2: idea that we should be capturing and learning from and
18:20
Speaker 2: somehow incorporating into what we can do with our regulatory
18:24
Speaker 2: in the United States. Because if you look at drug pricing,
18:31
Speaker 2: the largest contributor to drug pricing in terms of the
18:34
Speaker 2: cost of developing a drug, which everybody's always talking about,
18:37
Speaker 2: it's a billion dollars, it's two billion dollars. It's a
18:39
Speaker 2: lot of money. The bulk of that cost comes from
18:42
Speaker 2: clinical trials. And if you can kill drugs earlier and
18:47
Speaker 2: really focus on the best ones and moving those forward,
18:51
Speaker 2: you're going to save a ton of money. And whether
18:54
Speaker 2: it's IRA or whatever, that's shining a spotlight on the
19:00
Speaker 2: supply chain costs that we have as an industry. You know,
19:04
Speaker 2: the PBMs need to own their piece. The insurance companies
19:07
Speaker 2: need to own their piece. And pharma needs to own
19:09
Speaker 2: its piece, too. And we can own that piece if
19:12
Speaker 2: we have the regulatory setup that allows us to do these,
19:16
Speaker 2: to kill drugs sooner, get to the drugs that work.
19:20
Speaker 2: And that not only makes it cheaper, but it allows
19:25
Speaker 2: us to deliver drugs to patients with unmet medical needs faster.
19:29
Speaker 1: It's sort of a paradox about MFN, IRAs. The nominal
19:37
Speaker 1: goals of these are making medicines more accessible and affordable
19:40
Speaker 1: for Americans, leaving aside that it ignores a lot of
19:43
Speaker 1: the health insurance reforms we need. The paradox of shutting
19:48
Speaker 1: ourselves off from the rest of the world— or trying
19:50
Speaker 1: to race to the bottom through MFN is we'll actually
19:54
Speaker 1: make the stuff more expensive. So at a time when
19:56
Speaker 1: we're saying we want to drive down these costs, we're
19:59
Speaker 1: also saying we're floating ideas like, oh, but you can't
20:03
Speaker 1: go to China and do these and fail fast and
20:07
Speaker 1: kill these drugs before... you've had to invest hundreds of
20:11
Speaker 1: millions of dollars in them. So I've always thought that's
20:13
Speaker 1: a bit of a paradox that in theory, these policies
20:16
Speaker 1: aimed at driving down cost through isolationism will in turn
20:21
Speaker 1: actually drive up the cost of bringing a new medicine
20:23
Speaker 1: to market.
20:24
Speaker 2: We had a, it's a really good point. I appreciate that.
20:29
Speaker 2: And we, you and I had a discussion at JP
20:33
Speaker 2: Morgan when we did that panel together And you'd ask
20:38
Speaker 2: a question. And my take on it was that for
20:40
Speaker 2: a researcher, for scientists, for a small company, you'll go
20:43
Speaker 2: anywhere in the world to find the resources to solve
20:47
Speaker 2: a problem, especially when it means you're going to be
20:50
Speaker 2: able to deliver a solution to a patient who doesn't
20:54
Speaker 2: have a treatment currently. And that's what drives a lot
20:59
Speaker 2: of us biotech entrepreneurs is exactly that. And I met
21:04
Speaker 2: a kid as part of this trip named Derek. He
21:09
Speaker 2: was at Duke, total Duke, a huge basketball fan. Then
21:15
Speaker 2: he went to Georgetown to get his MD. And from there,
21:19
Speaker 2: he went to Wharton, got an MBA. This is a
21:23
Speaker 2: super smart kid. And we had a great conversation. We
21:28
Speaker 2: happened to be in Shanghai and he was on my panel. Um,
21:32
Speaker 2: and he worked for a company called Candid, uh, which
21:36
Speaker 2: probably familiar with was just sold for $ 2. 2 billion in
21:39
Speaker 2: the news. He had done all of this and decided
21:43
Speaker 2: that the way he could be most effective was if
21:46
Speaker 2: he ran this facility for Candid, which is located in
21:50
Speaker 2: San Diego and in Shanghai. And he was the general
21:53
Speaker 2: manager for the Shanghai operation. Um, he happened to speak Chinese,
21:58
Speaker 2: but he grew up in the United States. And he said,
22:01
Speaker 2: you know what, I want to solve big problems and
22:05
Speaker 2: I'm going to work with Ken Song and do that.
22:07
Speaker 2: And the way I can be most effective is by
22:10
Speaker 2: being in Shanghai and running these trials. He had 11
22:14
Speaker 2: clinical trials going on, seven of which were investigator initiated trials,
22:19
Speaker 2: four of which were INDs for the Chinese government because
22:23
Speaker 2: they were going to be developing those drugs for the
22:26
Speaker 2: Chinese population. And it's just a story about how solving
22:33
Speaker 2: unmet medical needs for patients is something that's a worldwide effort.
22:38
Speaker 2: And we need to keep that in mind that we're
22:40
Speaker 2: not going to be as effective if we're not thinking
22:43
Speaker 2: that way. When it comes to manufacturing and commercialization, okay,
22:48
Speaker 2: you can have incentives that you can bring to the
22:52
Speaker 2: table to encourage manufacturing in different countries. Those incentives may
22:57
Speaker 2: come in the form of a carrot, to try to
23:00
Speaker 2: encourage you to bring manufacturing there, or it may come
23:04
Speaker 2: in the form of a cudgel where they're gonna beat
23:07
Speaker 2: you if you're not manufacturing there. There's gonna be a problem.
23:10
Speaker 2: But no matter which, when you go down to the
23:15
Speaker 2: level of basic research and figuring out how to solve
23:18
Speaker 2: these problems, scientists really are passionate about what they're trying
23:23
Speaker 2: to do, and they'll go anywhere in the world to
23:24
Speaker 2: find those resources.
23:25
Speaker 1: Well, let's stay in Shanghai. All right, you get there.
23:29
Speaker 1: What stood out to you? What surprised you? What are
23:34
Speaker 1: some key takeaways for those of us who have never been?
23:38
Speaker 1: What was it like?
23:40
Speaker 2: The first thing that you notice that is amazing is
23:46
Speaker 2: when you're on your approach to Shanghai Airport. Fortunately, it
23:51
Speaker 2: was a clear day, and you look out at the
23:55
Speaker 2: harbor there. There are hundreds of cargo ships Um, I'd
24:00
Speaker 2: never seen so many cargo ships. They have a couple
24:04
Speaker 2: hundred cargo ships going in and out of that Shanghai
24:08
Speaker 2: port every single day. And you compare that to a
24:13
Speaker 2: busy port, like long beach or Seattle has just a handful. Uh,
24:17
Speaker 2: that go in and out. So that was the first
24:19
Speaker 2: thing that I noticed, like, oh my gosh, there's so
24:21
Speaker 2: many cargo ships there. And if you think about it,
24:24
Speaker 2: we've been sending manufacturing to China for 50 some years.
24:30
Speaker 2: And this is all the result of that. And the
24:33
Speaker 2: top 10 ports for manufacturing and just tonnage of cargo,
24:41
Speaker 2: they're all in Asia. And so it shouldn't be a
24:44
Speaker 2: surprise because we kind of created that. We developed it here.
24:47
Speaker 2: So that was the first thing that I noticed was
24:49
Speaker 2: just landing in Shanghai and seeing the incredible industrialization that
24:55
Speaker 2: had occurred there. And then as you're driving there, into
24:58
Speaker 2: Shanghai from the airport, you can't but notice that there's
25:06
Speaker 2: buildings all along the way that have all the major
25:09
Speaker 2: pharma logos on them prominently displayed, whether they're manufacturing operations,
25:16
Speaker 2: whether they're research and development locations.
25:19
Speaker 1: So it's like coming in from SFO or driving, it's
25:23
Speaker 1: the same thing?
25:23
Speaker 2: Okay. I could be driving through Oyster Point in South
25:27
Speaker 2: San Francisco and you're seeing the same thing. There is
25:32
Speaker 2: a huge presence by pharma there. And, you know, it's
25:35
Speaker 2: not really a surprise because we've known for the last
25:39
Speaker 2: five to 10 years that there's this $ 350 billion patent
25:44
Speaker 2: cliff that pharma is now dealing with, is going to
25:48
Speaker 2: be dealing with. Um, and, and so they're looking all
25:52
Speaker 2: over for like, how are we going to replace these
25:54
Speaker 2: drugs that are going off patent? Um, and, and, and
25:58
Speaker 2: this is one of the solutions, um, they're doing deals everywhere.
26:02
Speaker 2: And it just turns out that, um, the, the Chinese
26:05
Speaker 2: that kind of simultaneous with this patent cliff, the Chinese, uh,
26:09
Speaker 2: biotech sector has grown to the point where it is
26:14
Speaker 2: ready to do deals. And that's been a combination of
26:17
Speaker 2: things that have happened in China, including the five-year plans,
26:21
Speaker 2: which specify that biotech is going to be a major
26:26
Speaker 2: investment area and growth area for the economy. But it
26:30
Speaker 2: also has a lot to do with how they manage
26:35
Speaker 2: that biotech economy in China. If you look at just
26:40
Speaker 2: the sheer number of companies that are there, I'll take
26:45
Speaker 2: a moment and just say that we went to a,
26:49
Speaker 2: we went to a, a kind of bizarre market called
26:54
Speaker 2: the AP market. And it's a couple hundred stalls. They
26:59
Speaker 2: had within those stalls, they only sell like 12 things.
27:03
Speaker 2: So you're either buying luggage or you're buying electronics or
27:06
Speaker 2: you're buying some clothing or you know, there's, there's very
27:11
Speaker 2: few things. So they have optometrists there. And so they,
27:15
Speaker 2: in these couple hundred, you basically have 15 or 20
27:19
Speaker 2: stalls that are doing exactly the same thing. They're selling
27:22
Speaker 2: the exact same electronics. They're selling the exact same clothing.
27:26
Speaker 2: And so how do these people compete? I mean, they
27:28
Speaker 2: have something in China in the five-year plan called Involution.
27:34
Speaker 2: And Involution is all about supporting all of these different
27:39
Speaker 2: companies and just letting them battle it out. And the
27:42
Speaker 2: winner takes all. So you've got these stalls at the
27:45
Speaker 2: AP market. They're all selling the same stuff. And it's like,
27:49
Speaker 2: who can be better at selling this exact same equipment
27:56
Speaker 2: or clothing or luggage? And so the best rise to
28:01
Speaker 2: the top, the ones who figured out how to do it.
28:03
Speaker 2: And the same is true in biotechnology there. The government
28:08
Speaker 2: is very generous in supporting all of these biotech companies
28:12
Speaker 2: to And at one point we asked, how many biotech
28:14
Speaker 2: companies are there in China? And the estimates we got
28:18
Speaker 2: were anywhere from 6,000 to 10,382, which was an official
28:24
Speaker 2: number given to us by one agency. So we don't
28:28
Speaker 2: really know, but how do you support that many companies? Well,
28:30
Speaker 2: they basically, through involution, they support all of them and
28:34
Speaker 2: they let them battle it out. And that is something
28:38
Speaker 2: that it's difficult to compete with. It's part of, it's
28:42
Speaker 2: part of who China is and it's part of why
28:45
Speaker 2: they've risen so quickly and why they're now a player, uh,
28:49
Speaker 2: in the biotech industry.
28:50
Speaker 1: It's for a future conversation. It would be interesting to
28:53
Speaker 1: juxtapose that with just a little further up the Pacific.
28:56
Speaker 1: I know you've, um, had some good experience in Japan. Um,
29:00
Speaker 1: we've been there a lot, um, and sort of their
29:02
Speaker 1: cultural focus on harmony. It may not be the exact
29:06
Speaker 1: opposite of involution, um, but it's certainly very different in
29:11
Speaker 1: terms of, uh, where entrepreneurship comes from culturally. How was
29:17
Speaker 1: your reception in, in Shanghai and how did, were you welcomed? Um,
29:23
Speaker 1: do people see this as a two-way partnership?
29:26
Speaker 2: They did. We, and we were very fortunate. We had, uh,
29:31
Speaker 2: We had bankers helping us set up meetings. We had
29:36
Speaker 2: law firms that were based in Shanghai helping us set
29:39
Speaker 2: up meetings. And then we had a political handler that
29:44
Speaker 2: works with a lot of Congress folks that had been
29:49
Speaker 2: there many times and could connect us with government-oriented organizations
29:54
Speaker 2: that were supporting the biotech industry. And again, we were
29:58
Speaker 2: trying to learn as much as we could And so
30:01
Speaker 2: we met with kind of a trade organization called Sabita
30:06
Speaker 2: that supports a lot of biotechs. And we got to
30:08
Speaker 2: meet with all of those biotechs and kind of understand
30:10
Speaker 2: what their needs are and how they would want to
30:13
Speaker 2: engage with companies in California or partners in California. We
30:17
Speaker 2: also met with a similar group of investors. And it
30:22
Speaker 2: was interesting to meet with the investors because they are
30:25
Speaker 2: solely focused on investing in Chinese companies at this point.
30:28
Speaker 2: We were trying to see if there was any interest
30:30
Speaker 2: in investing in US-based companies. And there just really isn't
30:34
Speaker 2: at this moment because they just see it as a
30:36
Speaker 2: difficult time to be trying to get into the United
30:39
Speaker 2: States and invest. But super friendly and very much selling
30:48
Speaker 2: China at all times. Everybody there is fully in line
30:53
Speaker 2: with the Chinese government saying, we want to be a
30:56
Speaker 2: player in biotechnology. We're going to invest. We're going to
31:01
Speaker 2: invest in the entire supply chain. And we want to
31:04
Speaker 2: be one of the best in the world at this.
31:07
Speaker 2: And we want people to know that we're here and
31:09
Speaker 2: that we're open for business.
31:11
Speaker 1: One of the conversations around China is what is missing
31:15
Speaker 1: in that value chain. And sort of the last link
31:18
Speaker 1: I think many folks would agree with is a truly global, multinational,
31:25
Speaker 1: out of China that is going to do clinical trials
31:28
Speaker 1: all around the world. They don't seem to have cracked
31:30
Speaker 1: their own version of Pfizer or Merck or what have you.
31:35
Speaker 1: Did you pick up on that? Is that something they're
31:37
Speaker 1: working toward? Is that something they want? Do they want
31:40
Speaker 1: B1 to be a global player? Or do they seem
31:46
Speaker 1: content with we've mastered the biotech side of it, You
31:50
Speaker 1: all have those multinationals, and they seem to be coming
31:53
Speaker 1: in and moving assets forward. Did you pick up on
31:56
Speaker 1: that missing link? Because it's something we talk about a
31:58
Speaker 1: lot here.
31:59
Speaker 2: There's definitely a desire to do that. If you think
32:05
Speaker 2: about what the Chinese are really good at, it's developing
32:08
Speaker 2: processes for manufacturing and processes for driving science forward. which
32:17
Speaker 2: is why they're such a good partner at iterative processes.
32:22
Speaker 2: Let's produce a bispecific in 30 different flavors until we
32:28
Speaker 2: find the one that really works. And they're going to
32:31
Speaker 2: be really great at doing that. There is a desire
32:36
Speaker 2: to take that next step and be a global company.
32:41
Speaker 2: player in the space where they're looking at selling their
32:45
Speaker 2: drugs into the US-based market, which is the largest market
32:50
Speaker 2: in the world. 50% of the revenue on drugs worldwide
32:55
Speaker 2: comes out of the United States. So if you're a
32:58
Speaker 2: player like a hangrui in China, you're going to want
33:02
Speaker 2: to bring drugs to the US. They're at that point
33:05
Speaker 2: right now where they're looking at what they're really good at,
33:08
Speaker 2: which is uh, developing, uh, drugs and manufacturing them and
33:12
Speaker 2: working in partnership. And that's where you're seeing all the
33:15
Speaker 2: deals happen right now. It's that stage, but there's definitely
33:20
Speaker 2: an appetite to want to get to the point where
33:23
Speaker 2: they're selling their drugs to the United States and keep
33:25
Speaker 2: in mind, you know, the United States is 300 million people. Um,
33:29
Speaker 2: their middle class in China is 300 million people. So
33:34
Speaker 2: they've got just as big a market, uh, in China.
33:37
Speaker 2: that they can go after, but they don't have the
33:40
Speaker 2: same pricing. It's going to be like anybody else that's
33:43
Speaker 2: trying to sell in Europe versus US versus elsewhere. You're
33:47
Speaker 2: going to have a different pricing based on what the
33:50
Speaker 2: local economy is going to allow. But there's an appetite
33:54
Speaker 2: to do that. The other thing that's interesting is that
33:58
Speaker 2: they haven't, you know, as you move up the food chain,
34:01
Speaker 2: you tend to want to give up the stuff that's
34:03
Speaker 2: behind you. So the U S is really good at this.
34:06
Speaker 2: Like we've gotten to the point like, Hey, we're developing this,
34:08
Speaker 2: let's manufacture it somewhere else. Um, the Chinese don't want
34:12
Speaker 2: to give up any of it. They want to continue
34:14
Speaker 2: manufacturing the tchotchkes, uh, that are sitting in our garage
34:19
Speaker 2: and everything else, in addition to moving up the food
34:22
Speaker 2: chain and manufacturing, uh, iPhones and, uh, and drugs. um,
34:29
Speaker 2: you know, at the highest level.
34:30
Speaker 1: That is, I need to sit with that for a moment.
34:34
Speaker 1: Cause that is interesting. You know, we would just say, okay,
34:36
Speaker 1: as you naturally work on harder, more advanced stuff, you
34:40
Speaker 1: let the easy stuff go. Um, and they just, they
34:43
Speaker 1: want to do it all. And which, which is probably
34:46
Speaker 1: a good segue. I mean, they clearly have ambitions that
34:49
Speaker 1: are driven by government, which has led to this moment
34:53
Speaker 1: in us policy of what do we do that we
34:58
Speaker 1: are no longer necessarily going to always lead the world
35:02
Speaker 1: in new drug development. And so one of the hot
35:04
Speaker 1: topics right now is the concept of adding biotech to
35:09
Speaker 1: this restrictive, what we call the Coins Act list. And
35:13
Speaker 1: should we limit the ability of U.S. companies or U.S.
35:16
Speaker 1: investors to engage in China? Well-intentioned or not, how do
35:22
Speaker 1: you what you saw in China, the appetite, the panel
35:26
Speaker 1: you were on two years ago, where everyone's saying, I'm
35:28
Speaker 1: doing stuff in China. How do you reconcile that? And
35:33
Speaker 1: do you think we need, what policies do you think
35:36
Speaker 1: we need to best navigate the current moment we're in?
35:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that, you know, I just got off NSCEB,
35:46
Speaker 2: Emerging Biotech Commission meeting. And And I got to thinking
35:53
Speaker 2: about generally what they're doing is two things. They've got
35:59
Speaker 2: a lot going on and it is very well-intentioned. I
36:02
Speaker 2: think they've done amazing work and it basically falls into
36:05
Speaker 2: two categories though. One is kind of protectionist measures against China.
36:12
Speaker 2: And then the second is investment in the U.S. bioliteracy,
36:16
Speaker 2: workforce development, NIH SBIR funding. Um, and, and the second one,
36:23
Speaker 2: I think we can all get on board with, but
36:25
Speaker 2: that's been the more troubling, uh, piece for them is
36:28
Speaker 2: trying to get more investment. The first part, uh, I
36:32
Speaker 2: think they've had some success. Um, and w whether you
36:36
Speaker 2: agree with biosecure or not, the, um, Congress and the
36:40
Speaker 2: current administration believes that's the right way to go right
36:44
Speaker 2: now to try to improve things for us, um, as
36:47
Speaker 2: an economy, um, and, and to compete, um, from from
36:51
Speaker 2: the perspective of biotech in this particular sector. And I
36:57
Speaker 2: think it's well-intentioned, but I think that in some cases
36:59
Speaker 2: it goes a little too far. And to create blacklists
37:04
Speaker 2: for companies is difficult because there's such a big gray
37:09
Speaker 2: area there. And I think that I haven't seen any
37:12
Speaker 2: evidence specific to companies that are acting poorly or working
37:17
Speaker 2: with the Chinese government specifically. Um, but I know that
37:23
Speaker 2: we need to be careful about this and thoughtful as
37:26
Speaker 2: we go into different deals that we're doing. And I
37:29
Speaker 2: think that's the most important thing is that we have
37:32
Speaker 2: a group, uh, whether it's CFIUS with, with, with, uh,
37:36
Speaker 2: investments coming into the U S or whether it's investments
37:39
Speaker 2: going out, um, we need to be very thoughtful and
37:44
Speaker 2: do our diligence on each one of those deals and
37:46
Speaker 2: understand why is this being done? What's happening? what's the
37:52
Speaker 2: best way to move forward? Does this deal really good
37:54
Speaker 2: for the company and for the country? And just be
37:59
Speaker 2: thoughtful about how we're doing that as part of looking
38:02
Speaker 2: at that.
38:03
Speaker 1: Is one of your takeaways from China that they're a
38:08
Speaker 1: net positive to the ecosystem and your membership? Or could
38:13
Speaker 1: you imagine a world, can you imagine a world where
38:18
Speaker 1: China is taken out of your membership's drug development plans?
38:23
Speaker 2: I mean, I always see it as a, I hate
38:26
Speaker 2: to use a bunch of sports analogies, but I'm getting
38:28
Speaker 2: ready to. You know, we're in the middle of the
38:33
Speaker 2: World Cup right now. And we want the U.S.
38:37
Speaker 3: To win.
38:37
Speaker 2: We want to compete. And at the same time, all
38:42
Speaker 2: of these countries are coming together to promote the game
38:44
Speaker 2: of soccer. um, throughout the world. And that's the beauty
38:48
Speaker 2: of the beautiful game is that, um, everybody can get behind, um,
38:53
Speaker 2: you know, a fantastic performance on, on the pitch. Um,
38:58
Speaker 2: but we also want to win. And, and I see
39:01
Speaker 2: this as similar, uh, in that we, we want to,
39:04
Speaker 2: we want to compete, we want to win. And at
39:07
Speaker 2: the same time, we want to work together and we
39:09
Speaker 2: want to cooperate, um, to do great things for the
39:12
Speaker 2: human condition. That can't be done unless we do work together. No,
39:17
Speaker 2: I think that I mean, I think that that's that's
39:19
Speaker 2: an important aspect of what I see as this kind
39:23
Speaker 2: of tightrope that we're walking in terms of wanting to
39:27
Speaker 2: be supportive of of biomedical research worldwide, focus on problems together,
39:34
Speaker 2: and competing with each other.
39:36
Speaker 1: Well, I would say in some of the conversations, the
39:40
Speaker 1: national security element of this is critically important. But at
39:44
Speaker 1: the end of the day, this entire industry in every
39:47
Speaker 1: country is working towards something for patients. And sometimes in
39:51
Speaker 1: this debate, I think we do lose track of that.
39:54
Speaker 1: I'm going to try out my own World Cup analogy
39:55
Speaker 1: on you. I'm trying this around Washington. We'll see what
39:59
Speaker 1: you think of it. We're in the World Cup. And
40:04
Speaker 1: if we were to pursue policies that say, look, U.S. biotech,
40:07
Speaker 1: you can't use China.
40:09
Speaker 3: U.S.
40:09
Speaker 1: Investors, you can't invest in China.
40:11
Speaker 2: U.S.
40:12
Speaker 1: Pharma, you can't license deals out of China. In imagining
40:16
Speaker 1: that world, we're basically saying, You know, in my view,
40:20
Speaker 1: China's on the team and they're just passing the ball
40:25
Speaker 1: in perfectly so many times. They are just the assist
40:28
Speaker 1: king and the U.S. scores. I mean, when we license
40:33
Speaker 1: something in, 90% of the value created when UCB buys
40:38
Speaker 1: a company stays here in the U.S. So our soccer
40:42
Speaker 1: team right now is great. The U.S. is winning. We
40:45
Speaker 1: do have a competitor, but China is actually on our team.
40:48
Speaker 1: and is feeding us all these assists. If we shut
40:51
Speaker 1: that down, let's remember that China can still play on
40:54
Speaker 1: the European team, and can play on the Japanese team,
40:57
Speaker 1: and they can play, the rest of the world will
40:59
Speaker 1: have access to this incredible ecosystem in China, and we wouldn't,
41:04
Speaker 1: and it's hard to imagine the US winning when the
41:08
Speaker 1: rest of the world can have this great player. I
41:11
Speaker 1: don't know, I'm still working on that analogy, but I'm
41:14
Speaker 1: curious what you think.
41:15
Speaker 2: I like it, and And where it's going is that
41:20
Speaker 2: China is a free agent. They're willing to work with everybody.
41:23
Speaker 2: They're very open. That attitude is the attitude of someone
41:28
Speaker 2: who's trying to be the best. The attitude of someone
41:31
Speaker 2: who's currently leading, that's a different attitude sometimes. And sometimes
41:38
Speaker 2: it's not the right attitude. And I'll jump into the
41:41
Speaker 2: next sports analogy because I think this is fitting based
41:44
Speaker 2: on what just happened. And that was, are you a
41:47
Speaker 2: Knicks fan?
41:48
Speaker 1: I think we all have to be Knicks fans. Otherwise
41:50
Speaker 1: people will yell at you on the street. So yes,
41:52
Speaker 1: for the purposes of this podcast, I'm a Knicks fan.
41:56
Speaker 2: At this moment, we're all Knicks fans. And when you
41:59
Speaker 2: watch that series, you realize that the Spurs led virtually
42:04
Speaker 2: every single game at some point, and in some cases
42:07
Speaker 2: by huge amounts, and yet they lost. And so they
42:11
Speaker 2: got to that second half and they got to the
42:13
Speaker 2: fourth quarter and And you have to ask yourself, what
42:15
Speaker 2: were they thinking? Were they playing to win or were
42:19
Speaker 2: they playing not to lose? And I think in some
42:22
Speaker 2: ways we're playing not to lose. The US is number
42:27
Speaker 2: one in biomedical research in the world right now. And
42:30
Speaker 2: China is really working hard to catch up. They are
42:34
Speaker 2: playing to win. And if you put in protectionist measures
42:39
Speaker 2: and you are like coins, Um, and like biosecure and
42:45
Speaker 2: you're saying, you know, we're going to be conservative about this.
42:47
Speaker 2: We're going to try to slow other people down. We're
42:50
Speaker 2: no longer playing to win. We're playing to not lose.
42:55
Speaker 1: That that's the analogy. That is terrific. Let's be the Knicks.
42:59
Speaker 1: Let's not be the Spurs.
43:01
Speaker 2: Let's be the Knicks. Let's be the Knicks. And if
43:03
Speaker 2: you think about it, the way to play to win
43:07
Speaker 2: is to, is to fund NIH, catalyze innovation, fund SBR
43:12
Speaker 2: and STTR, really apply the money that we need to
43:16
Speaker 2: apply here to make things happen. And when we talk
43:19
Speaker 2: about moonshots and we say, hey, you know, this is
43:21
Speaker 2: a good thing to do a moonshot. Well, apply moonshot
43:24
Speaker 2: to the whole industry, advanced manufacturing technologies, early phase first
43:29
Speaker 2: in human trials, fixing the regulatory system. You know, Congressman
43:37
Speaker 2: Alkin Kloss, we're giving him a lot of support on
43:40
Speaker 2: this FDA reform that he has for early phase clinical trials.
43:45
Speaker 2: It's a very good plan. We spent a lot of
43:46
Speaker 2: time with them talking about it. And I think it's
43:49
Speaker 2: the right thing to do, but it's also about playing
43:52
Speaker 2: to win. And I think that's gotta be the best approach.
43:58
Speaker 1: I love that. Two bonus questions. You've been very generous
44:02
Speaker 1: with your time. So we'll keep them tight. One fear
44:06
Speaker 1: we've heard is that the US might lose its muscle
44:09
Speaker 1: memory to develop new medicines. Do you think that's a
44:14
Speaker 1: real concern? Let's say the NIH stays funded at 40
44:18
Speaker 1: plus billion a year. Maybe it takes a haircut here
44:20
Speaker 1: and there. As long as we've got the NIH, will
44:23
Speaker 1: we always have the muscle memory?
44:25
Speaker 2: If you spend any time in the intellectual network that
44:29
Speaker 2: exists in university environments and both academic and research environments,
44:38
Speaker 2: you realize that that'll never be the case. Um, we
44:41
Speaker 2: just have too much ingenuity, um, at the, uh, at
44:47
Speaker 2: the university and research systems. Um, and, and we need to,
44:52
Speaker 2: and we need to, uh, we need to catalyze that
44:54
Speaker 2: we need to continue to feed it. Uh, and we
44:57
Speaker 2: need to continue to allow, um, people from all over
45:00
Speaker 2: the world to come to our universities, um, because that's power. Um,
45:05
Speaker 2: you have researchers from all over the world coming to, um,
45:09
Speaker 2: to Harvard or Stanford or UC San Diego. And that
45:15
Speaker 2: is incredible power that we're bringing to really serious problems.
45:20
Speaker 2: I was running a company called Tiga Therapeutics and I
45:25
Speaker 2: got space, you know, tiny companies. We got space on
45:28
Speaker 2: campus at UC San Diego in the pharmacy building where
45:32
Speaker 2: the bunch of research was being done. And the thing
45:35
Speaker 2: that was really fun about that two years was that
45:38
Speaker 2: people would just come wandering down the hall and say, hey,
45:42
Speaker 2: are you a biotech company? Can I share an idea
45:46
Speaker 2: with you that I have? And that experience, I was
45:51
Speaker 2: involved with five startups just that didn't have anything to
45:54
Speaker 2: do with my company that came out of that experience
45:56
Speaker 2: because people would just come wandering down and ask a question.
45:58
Speaker 2: And we'd say, well, what do you have here? Like,
46:00
Speaker 2: let's talk about it. And let's see how we can
46:04
Speaker 2: support you in that. So the intellectual network in the
46:08
Speaker 2: US is amazing. And we need to continue to feed that.
46:13
Speaker 2: And it's a problem right now because the threat to
46:17
Speaker 2: NIH funding that has occurred for the last couple of
46:21
Speaker 2: years really has been problematic for the university system because
46:27
Speaker 2: the university's looking at it and saying, well, we need
46:30
Speaker 2: to plan for this. So they cut their budgets by 15,
46:33
Speaker 2: 20 percent. And then they also cut their incoming graduate
46:37
Speaker 2: students and postdocs by 50 percent. And so that's happening
46:42
Speaker 2: across the country. And I need someone that's willing to
46:46
Speaker 2: model this out and just tell us what does this
46:49
Speaker 2: mean five years from now when we have half as
46:51
Speaker 2: many researchers that are being supported in the U.S. to
46:56
Speaker 2: drive technology forward? I think it's going to have a
46:59
Speaker 2: pretty dramatic effect.
47:01
Speaker 1: Well, it's a good call out that even bad proposals
47:05
Speaker 1: obviously incubate many others, championed NIH funding, Congress, both sides
47:09
Speaker 1: of the aisle saw fit to fund it. But even
47:12
Speaker 1: the threats, even the rhetoric, even putting it in the
47:15
Speaker 1: president's budget, which oftentimes doesn't materialize, Even proposing bad ideas
47:21
Speaker 1: slows down the system. Last question. You are about to
47:24
Speaker 1: play host to pretty much the whole ecosystem as bio
47:28
Speaker 1: descends on San Diego next week. Are you ready? Is
47:33
Speaker 1: the city ready? Are you excited to be hosting next week?
47:36
Speaker 2: The city's ready. And it's interesting because the two big
47:39
Speaker 2: conversations that are happening in almost every conference and every
47:44
Speaker 2: meeting that you have is AI and China. And so
47:50
Speaker 2: I'm glad that you have warmed me up nicely for
47:54
Speaker 2: next week with this call, because this has been a
47:57
Speaker 2: great conversation. And I just want to finish it by
47:59
Speaker 2: saying that the cooperation, this idea of competing and cooperating,
48:05
Speaker 2: there's some incredible opportunities for the U.S. and China to
48:09
Speaker 2: cooperate because there's some big medical problems that exist out there.
48:15
Speaker 2: that we could be focused on and utilizing our individual
48:18
Speaker 2: talents to drive solutions for humankind. And if you just
48:25
Speaker 2: think of cancer moonshots, what if we did cancer moonshot
48:29
Speaker 2: together with the Chinese, developed the drugs, did the early
48:33
Speaker 2: phase trials, cleared out the drugs that don't work and
48:36
Speaker 2: move the ones forward that do and do it on
48:39
Speaker 2: a rapid timeframe, it's gonna solve problems for everybody. both Chinese, Americans,
48:45
Speaker 2: and everybody else around the world. And the second opportunity
48:49
Speaker 2: would be around next generation antibiotics. I mean, people don't
48:54
Speaker 2: realize that antibiotics have basically saved about 200 million lives.
49:01
Speaker 2: It's the most critical drug when it comes to the
49:04
Speaker 2: number of lives saved. Then imagine being able to work
49:07
Speaker 2: together Chinese and US interests, scientists getting together and saying,
49:12
Speaker 2: let's develop that next gen antibiotics because we're gonna have
49:15
Speaker 2: to do that at some point. And it's a very
49:18
Speaker 2: iterative process as well. So it's something that between American
49:23
Speaker 2: ingenuity and Chinese process engineering, we could be a great team.
49:31
Speaker 1: We could be. We should be. I think that's a
49:33
Speaker 1: great spot. We're all about fresh perspectives on the podcast.
49:37
Speaker 1: We're not hearing a lot of talk about cooperation. Hearing
49:39
Speaker 1: a lot of talk about national security. I love that
49:43
Speaker 1: you brought this concept of there are things we could
49:45
Speaker 1: do together and we should do together. Tim, so grateful
49:49
Speaker 1: that you joined us. And hopefully this was a good
49:51
Speaker 1: warm-up for talking on the big issues next week.
49:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, always good to be with you, John.
49:56
Speaker 3: That wraps up this episode of the Making Medicine Podcast.
49:59
Speaker 3: John will return next week alongside an exciting guest for
50:01
Speaker 3: another great conversation. Be sure to subscribe on YouTube and
50:05
Speaker 3: follow us on other channels. Thanks for listening. And as always,
50:08
Speaker 3: keep innovating.