Transcript

Sharri | 27 October · Sharri

0:07
Speaker 1: Thanks, Andrew. Good evening. Tonight, how the Iranian regime targeted
0:11
Speaker 1: me in a two-month intelligence operation. The ASIO Director-General has
0:16
Speaker 1: issued a warning. That in a moment. Also on the show,
0:20
Speaker 1: Anthony Albanese has been forced to admit the $ 6 million
0:23
Speaker 1: grant for his golf club was not for fixing sewage issues.
0:29
Speaker 1: This just the latest backflip. And New South Wales Premier
0:33
Speaker 1: Chris Min says that he could lose to One Nation.
0:36
Speaker 1: That's all coming up. But first, ASIO Director General Mike
0:41
Speaker 1: Burgess has revealed the notorious Iranian regime has targeted two
0:46
Speaker 1: Australians in intelligence operations this year, including me, and he's
0:51
Speaker 1: warning that Iran may carry out further arson attacks or
0:55
Speaker 1: even assassinations on Australian soil. Now, this is an extraordinary
1:01
Speaker 1: story that gives a terrifying insight to the lengths that
1:05
Speaker 1: Iran will go to to reach inside Australia to gather
1:09
Speaker 1: intelligence that they then may use to mount attacks. This
1:14
Speaker 1: began two months ago in August when I received a
1:18
Speaker 1: message from a former Trump administration official asking me to
1:22
Speaker 1: meet with his team at a prestigious think tank. It
1:26
Speaker 1: was the start of a two-month sting, described by the
1:29
Speaker 1: ASIO chief as sophisticated and targeted. And it ended with
1:34
Speaker 1: the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps gaining access to my personal
1:39
Speaker 1: emails and details in a major security breach. Now, I
1:44
Speaker 1: knew this former Trump official well. I'd interviewed him during
1:48
Speaker 1: the investigation into the origins of COVID-19. I interviewed him
1:52
Speaker 1: for my book on Wuhan. I trusted him. and I'd
1:55
Speaker 1: met him in person during one of his visits to Australia.
1:59
Speaker 1: Unbeknownst to either of us, his genuine X account had
2:04
Speaker 1: been infiltrated by a suspected Iranian operative using the delegate
2:09
Speaker 1: feature on X, which gives a third party access to
2:13
Speaker 1: manage and operate your account. Here's what he wrote to me.
2:17
Speaker 1: He said, hello, Shari, I hope you're doing well. A
2:20
Speaker 1: team here at the Hudson Institute are working on a
2:23
Speaker 1: topic very close to what you did in your book.
2:25
Speaker 1: Please let me know if you have some time to
2:28
Speaker 1: have an online conversation with them. Well, I agreed and
2:33
Speaker 1: a couple of days later, he connected me with Kathleen
2:36
Speaker 1: Batts from his team, supposedly from his team, who then
2:41
Speaker 1: contacted me via the encrypted app Signal. We tried to
2:46
Speaker 1: find a time for an online meeting. I became unresponsive,
2:50
Speaker 1: busy with the launch of our book and the nightly
2:53
Speaker 1: TV show. And so the former Trump official, from his
2:57
Speaker 1: genuine account, prompted me again. This was the message he
3:02
Speaker 1: wrote on September the 16th. He said Kathleen mentioned that
3:07
Speaker 1: she's reached out to you on Signal regarding their project,
3:10
Speaker 1: but I understand you may be quite busy and haven't
3:13
Speaker 1: had a chance to respond. I know you have a
3:15
Speaker 1: lot going on, but if you're able to find some
3:18
Speaker 1: time to help them with the project, we would really
3:20
Speaker 1: appreciate it. I completely understand if your schedule is too
3:25
Speaker 1: busy though. I of course felt guilty for the slow
3:30
Speaker 1: reply and three weeks later on October 8th, I eventually
3:35
Speaker 1: set aside time for the meeting. But when I joined
3:39
Speaker 1: the Google meet, we couldn't connect. This didn't strike me
3:44
Speaker 1: as unusual initially. I mean, who doesn't have trouble connecting
3:47
Speaker 1: to video meetings? And I suggested we speak on the
3:51
Speaker 1: phone instead. But Kathleen told me, I want the team
3:55
Speaker 1: to be in the room. Now, I grew slightly suspicious
4:00
Speaker 1: that it was taking so long to try connect to
4:02
Speaker 1: this video meeting. So I sent the former Trump official
4:06
Speaker 1: contact messages. I messaged him on his three accounts. X,
4:12
Speaker 1: Signal and WhatsApp to double check that he'd asked me
4:16
Speaker 1: to meet with Kathleen and that she was legitimately from
4:19
Speaker 1: the Hudson Institute. Well, he replied on Signal to say
4:24
Speaker 1: he was on a flight and he had no idea
4:28
Speaker 1: who Kathleen was. He had not connected her with me.
4:32
Speaker 1: I mean, you can imagine the shock. I sent him
4:37
Speaker 1: immediately screenshots of the message he had sent to from
4:42
Speaker 1: his own genuine account. He then tried to access his
4:46
Speaker 1: own ex-messenger account and he discovered his password had been changed.
4:52
Speaker 1: We would both later discover that the suspected Iranian agent
4:56
Speaker 1: had first infiltrated his account back on the 7th of July.
5:01
Speaker 1: And it was using this bot account under the profile
5:05
Speaker 1: of Shannon Butler, you know, a 20-something attractive woman claiming
5:10
Speaker 1: to be building the American dream. It was a bot account,
5:15
Speaker 1: a fake account. But of course, for me, it was
5:18
Speaker 1: too late. The hostile foreign intelligence agents had been able
5:22
Speaker 1: to infiltrate my Gmail because I clicked on that Google
5:27
Speaker 1: Meet link. It contained my personal emails and details. I
5:33
Speaker 1: raced to change all of my passwords and I called
5:36
Speaker 1: in cyber experts. Now, we initially assumed China was responsible
5:41
Speaker 1: because I had met this contact through my Wuhan reporting.
5:45
Speaker 1: But six days later, ASIO Director General Mike Burgess informed
5:50
Speaker 1: me that it was Iran and not China that had
5:55
Speaker 1: targeted me personally in an intelligence operation that concerned him. Now,
6:02
Speaker 1: Mike Burgess has been warning about the threat of Iran
6:06
Speaker 1: and its tentacles in Australia. Here's what he said at
6:09
Speaker 1: his annual threat assessment in June this year.
6:13
Speaker 2: An Iran-line group orchestrated a wave of attacks across Europe
6:16
Speaker 2: earlier this year. Most were low-capability attacks involving arson or
6:21
Speaker 2: rudimentary incendiary devices. Most targeted Jewish interests, but all were
6:26
Speaker 2: designed to fuel fear as part of Iran's anti-American, anti-Israel,
6:31
Speaker 2: anti-Semitic agenda. Iran continues to view Australia as a legitimate
6:35
Speaker 2: target for covertly direct directed acts of violence. And we
6:40
Speaker 2: assess there is a realistic possibility the group that's been
6:43
Speaker 2: active in Europe will expand its networks to this part
6:46
Speaker 2: of the world and could conduct or inspire acts of arson,
6:51
Speaker 2: vandalism or even assassinations on Australian soil.
6:57
Speaker 1: Now, Mike Burgess explained to me why I was targeted,
7:01
Speaker 1: saying that I was a supporter of Jews, of course
7:03
Speaker 1: I am, and Israel and a critic of Iran. He said,
7:08
Speaker 1: as he did there, this is part of Iran's anti-America, anti-Israel,
7:11
Speaker 1: anti-Semitic agenda. He said, you're also well connected. For example,
7:15
Speaker 1: you've interviewed the Israeli prime minister. And Burgess told me
7:19
Speaker 1: that the operation targeting me had the hallmark of a
7:22
Speaker 1: professionally good intelligence agency. He said, it's a relatively sophisticated,
7:27
Speaker 1: targeted social engineering campaign to bait you and point you
7:31
Speaker 1: to a link that executes code that gives them access.
7:35
Speaker 1: He said, I still have concerns that Iran continues to
7:38
Speaker 1: view Australia as a legitimate target for covertly directed acts
7:43
Speaker 1: of violence. And Burgess pointed to the pattern where Iran
7:48
Speaker 1: is carrying out acts of violence across the globe, including
7:52
Speaker 1: the recent incident at the Royal Air Force Base in
7:55
Speaker 1: the UK. He says nation states like Iran are prepared
7:59
Speaker 1: to do covert acts of violence or direct covert acts
8:03
Speaker 1: of violence across the globe, including in Australia. And he
8:07
Speaker 1: said he remains concerned about this. Now, this is a point, again,
8:13
Speaker 1: that he made just last month in an interview with
8:16
Speaker 1: Neil Mitchell.
8:19
Speaker 2: I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Iran would want
8:21
Speaker 2: to kill prominent Jewish Australians. Again, no immediate threat that
8:27
Speaker 2: we're investigating, but we do have that concern. And it's
8:30
Speaker 2: not because Australia, it's because of their hatred of Jews.
8:32
Speaker 2: That a foreign country could want to come into this
8:34
Speaker 2: country and kill Jewish leaders. Yes, that is a possibility.
8:39
Speaker 1: Are the Jewish leaders aware of that?
8:41
Speaker 2: Some of them are, yes. Some of them who we've
8:43
Speaker 2: had to talk to are.
8:46
Speaker 1: Now, of course, I wanted to know how common this was,
8:49
Speaker 1: being the target of an intelligence operation. And Mr Burgess
8:52
Speaker 1: told me there were two Australians who'd been targeted by
8:56
Speaker 1: Iran this year in cyber operations. The second, I was
9:01
Speaker 1: surprised to learn, is a commentator on this program, Michael Kroger.
9:07
Speaker 1: And he's made many comments critical of the IRGC like this.
9:13
Speaker 3: This regime, if they're ever going to get rid of
9:15
Speaker 3: this regime, it's going to be now. They've got few allies.
9:19
Speaker 3: They've got depleted resources. You've got an immensely unpopular regime,
9:23
Speaker 3: which is just the Ayatollah and the IRGC and some
9:28
Speaker 3: volunteer extremists, Islamists that back the regime. Pretty well the
9:33
Speaker 3: whole rest of the population against them.
9:36
Speaker 1: Now, Mike Burgess told me about Kroger. He said, we
9:40
Speaker 1: know he was targeted. We saw his details on a
9:43
Speaker 1: to-do list. He's on a target list. Now, ASIO had
9:49
Speaker 1: been able to detect the plot to target Kroger and
9:52
Speaker 1: inform him before Iran was successful. And I'm going to
9:57
Speaker 1: have Michael Kroger on this program tomorrow night as he
10:00
Speaker 1: always is, to talk about this. And Burgess confirmed to
10:04
Speaker 1: me that ASIO was working with intelligence partners on this matter.
10:07
Speaker 1: And the New South Wales Police Cybercrime Division is also
10:10
Speaker 1: investigating alongside the United States Department of Homeland Security, given
10:15
Speaker 1: that the infiltration began with Iran masquerading as an American citizen. Now,
10:23
Speaker 1: some have asked me why I would make this public.
10:26
Speaker 1: You know, this happened a few weeks ago. Well, nearly
10:29
Speaker 1: three weeks on, I believe our political leaders need to
10:33
Speaker 1: understand the grave nature of the threats posed by the
10:38
Speaker 1: Iranian regime to Australians, and particularly to Jewish Australians. Iran
10:44
Speaker 1: orchestrated the firebombing of the Adas synagogue in Melbourne, and
10:49
Speaker 1: Iran was behind the arson attack on Mrs Lewis's Continental
10:53
Speaker 1: Kitchen in Sydney, allegedly carried out by local criminals for hire.
10:59
Speaker 4: In a disturbing development, our spy agency ASIO has directly
11:03
Speaker 4: named Iran as the culprit behind two anti-Semitic.
11:07
Speaker 1: Attacks, one here in Sydney and one in Melbourne.
11:10
Speaker 4: In an extraordinary press conference, the Prime Minister and nation's
11:14
Speaker 4: top spy claim there's enough compelling evidence to point the
11:18
Speaker 4: finger at Iran for the firebombing of the Adas Israel
11:21
Speaker 4: Synagogue in Melbourne in December while early morning worshippers were inside.
11:26
Speaker 4: and an arson attack on Jewish business Lewis Continental Kitchen
11:30
Speaker 4: at Bondi in October.
11:31
Speaker 1: And now, of course, ASIO confirming that Iran targeted two
11:37
Speaker 1: Australians this year. It's understandably been concerning for my family
11:43
Speaker 1: and my employer to learn that this dangerous and ruthless
11:46
Speaker 1: regime has targeted me personally in this intelligence operation spanning
11:51
Speaker 1: two months. Now, many political leaders present the war in
11:55
Speaker 1: Iran as a distant threat. Yet the Iranian regime has
12:00
Speaker 1: demonstrated that it's prepared to target Australians on our own soil.
12:06
Speaker 1: Our politicians need to recognise that Iran poses a serious
12:10
Speaker 1: and ongoing threat, not only to America and Israel, but
12:14
Speaker 1: to Australian citizens. The reach of the Iranian regime should
12:19
Speaker 1: not be able to threaten the safety of Australians or
12:23
Speaker 1: to undermine our democracy. And for some analysis on this now,
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Speaker 1: I'm joined by News 24 defence analyst Peter Jennings in Canberra. Peter,
12:35
Speaker 1: thanks so much for being here. Firstly, can you talk
12:38
Speaker 1: a bit about why Iran is engaging in activity like this,
12:43
Speaker 1: targeting Australians, seeing as it should be distracted with its
12:47
Speaker 1: own war and problems in the Middle East?
12:52
Speaker 5: Well, good evening, Shari, and this is very serious information
12:56
Speaker 5: we're hearing from you tonight. This is part of a
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Speaker 5: global Iranian campaign, one that has been running for many years.
13:04
Speaker 5: As you mentioned, we've seen them active in the UK.
13:08
Speaker 5: They seem to have been active in the United States,
13:11
Speaker 5: including looking at opportunities to assassinate President Trump and perhaps
13:15
Speaker 5: others in the American political system. I think Iran does
13:19
Speaker 5: it because it can, because it has people with the tradecraft,
13:23
Speaker 5: because it sees it as being a part of a
13:25
Speaker 5: strategy which it can use to build leverage and create
13:30
Speaker 5: pressure against its enemies all around the world. And I
13:35
Speaker 5: think that unfortunately you've been part of that broader picture
13:39
Speaker 5: where they are looking to keep their eye on the
13:43
Speaker 5: Iranian diaspora, many of whom of course around the world
13:46
Speaker 5: are opponents of the regime. They're also looking to find
13:50
Speaker 5: people that are connected into Western democratic political systems and
13:55
Speaker 5: connected into Israeli and Jewish society. And so for that reason,
14:01
Speaker 5: I could see, unfortunately, why they might be interested in you,
14:06
Speaker 5: not only for your contact book, for the people that
14:08
Speaker 5: you speak to at political levels, but also for the
14:12
Speaker 5: connections that you have in Israel. And really what they're
14:15
Speaker 5: doing is they're looking for How can they use this
14:19
Speaker 5: to their advantage in a situation where they feel themselves
14:23
Speaker 5: at war with most of the world's democracies?
14:26
Speaker 1: I'm told the cyber unit that targeted me is called
14:29
Speaker 1: Charming Kitten. It's an IRGC-linked cyber warfare unit. What can
14:36
Speaker 1: you tell us about this operation, Charming Kitten?
14:40
Speaker 5: So what I find in an afternoon of reading is
14:43
Speaker 5: that there's actually quite a lot on the public record
14:45
Speaker 5: about this group. They're known by a number of other names,
14:48
Speaker 5: including APT, which stands for Advanced Persistent Threat 25 and 42.
14:55
Speaker 5: They're a group which has been operating with a global
14:58
Speaker 5: focus for almost a decade now, at least since 2017.
15:04
Speaker 5: And they have a focus on, as I say, the
15:06
Speaker 5: diaspora community and those people who are linked to Jewish
15:10
Speaker 5: communities or linked in some way to the democratic process.
15:15
Speaker 5: interested in journalists, prominent figures, academics and other individuals. And
15:23
Speaker 5: what I think is particularly unusual about them, Shari, is
15:25
Speaker 5: that they're not just cyber people who are about quietly
15:30
Speaker 5: trying to steal information. They're combining that cyber expertise with
15:36
Speaker 5: knowledge about good old fashioned human intelligence. And we've seen,
15:42
Speaker 5: I think, something of that at play over the last
15:44
Speaker 5: 12 or 18 months where the Iranian Revolutionary Guard has
15:49
Speaker 5: been dealing with Australian criminal figures to engage in vandalism
15:55
Speaker 5: and other forms of damage against the Jewish community. So
15:59
Speaker 5: they're not just intelligence gatherers. They're also out to see
16:01
Speaker 5: what harm and damage they can do. And they seem
16:05
Speaker 5: to have been active around the world, Shari, the US
16:08
Speaker 5: going after think tanks and NGOs, journalists and other folk
16:12
Speaker 5: like that.
16:12
Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.
16:14
Speaker 1: I mean, you look at Iran's activity around the world,
16:17
Speaker 1: as you just mentioned. I mean, what is Iran's ambition?
16:21
Speaker 1: Does it have anything to do now with President Trump
16:24
Speaker 1: reportedly considering kick-starting military action after the midterms?
16:30
Speaker 5: So I think the Iranians have realised for some time
16:32
Speaker 5: that the war is not over, that they present such
16:36
Speaker 5: a challenge to Israel, to the region. to the United
16:41
Speaker 5: States and other democracies, that it simply can't be left
16:45
Speaker 5: as things stand, with Iran in particular controlling the Strait
16:49
Speaker 5: of Hormuz and the flow of oil, 20% of the
16:52
Speaker 5: world's crude oil through that strait. So more than likely
16:56
Speaker 5: after the midterms, I think we're going to see a
16:58
Speaker 5: resumption of conflict. Americans perhaps engaging in precision strikes. Perhaps
17:05
Speaker 5: Israel becomes involved again. And so what has Iran been
17:09
Speaker 5: doing in preparation for this? Well, it's been trying to
17:12
Speaker 5: rebuild its military capabilities and doing it fast and at scale.
17:17
Speaker 5: And I think it's probably using its international espionage and
17:21
Speaker 5: cyber techniques to see what can it do to do
17:24
Speaker 5: damage to Western US and Israeli interests all around the
17:29
Speaker 5: world so that the conflict is not just going to
17:31
Speaker 5: be centred on them, it's something that they can take
17:33
Speaker 5: to their enemies as well. And I suspect they've been
17:37
Speaker 5: probably even more busy on the intelligence and cyber front
17:39
Speaker 5: than they have in other areas.
17:42
Speaker 1: It's so alarming, so worrying. You never think you're going
17:46
Speaker 1: to get caught up in something like this. It's quite extraordinary.
17:51
Speaker 1: I'm going to come back to that tomorrow night with
17:53
Speaker 1: Michael Kroger. But, Pete, I want to ask you about
17:56
Speaker 1: a couple of other topics now. We're learning that a
17:59
Speaker 1: Congolese serial rapist, so this is someone who raped his
18:03
Speaker 1: then 13-year-old daughter after arriving in Australia as a refugee,
18:08
Speaker 1: has been allowed to stay in the country. This is
18:10
Speaker 1: the Administrative Review Tribunal once again saying, you know, they're
18:14
Speaker 1: not going to cancel his visa. They say that sending
18:17
Speaker 1: him to Nauru would inflict very grave harm. I mean,
18:20
Speaker 1: this is an astonishing verdict, really.
18:24
Speaker 5: It is, Shari, and it appears to form a pattern
18:28
Speaker 5: of decisions that the Administrative Review Tribunal has taken, even
18:32
Speaker 5: after the Labor government changed its directions to the tribunal
18:37
Speaker 5: and said that in their considerations they needed to take
18:41
Speaker 5: Australian community safety as being their most important priority. Now,
18:46
Speaker 5: it would appear to be the case that in quite
18:48
Speaker 5: a number of instances, the tribunal has not followed that direction.
18:53
Speaker 5: And we're not talking about people here that so often
18:57
Speaker 5: on this channel we have to throw in the word alleged.
19:00
Speaker 5: We're talking about people that have actually been convicted of
19:02
Speaker 5: very serious crimes. I find it astonishing that the tribunal
19:06
Speaker 5: is off doing this. I think it puts the weight
19:09
Speaker 5: back on the government to have to direct again how
19:14
Speaker 5: the tribunal should use its authorities when it comes to
19:16
Speaker 5: dealing with these people, because they should not be allowed
19:19
Speaker 5: to remain in Australia having committed, in some cases, horrendous crimes.
19:25
Speaker 5: And the presumption should be more about the threat to
19:29
Speaker 5: Australian safety rather than, I think, frankly, largely illusory risks
19:33
Speaker 5: to individuals that might happen if they're sent to Nauru.
19:37
Speaker 1: I think the whole Administrative Appeals Tribunal needs to be
19:41
Speaker 1: rethought because this is just the latest in a long
19:44
Speaker 1: line of truly inexplicable decisions. Peter Jennings, thank you so
19:48
Speaker 1: much for your insights and for joining us tonight. All right,
19:52
Speaker 1: let's have a look at some of the other headlines now.
19:54
Speaker 1: And the Prime Minister has been forced to admit that
19:56
Speaker 1: a $ 6 million grant for the Marrickville Golf Club in
20:00
Speaker 1: his own electorate was not for fixing sewage issues as
20:04
Speaker 1: he first suggested.
20:05
Speaker 7: I have said that was not correct. It was not correct.
20:09
Speaker 8: The state government have moved in and are funding the project.
20:14
Speaker 1: Look, this is in complete contradiction to what he said
20:16
Speaker 1: last month.
20:18
Speaker 9: And one for the upgrade of the Inner West Council-owned
20:22
Speaker 9: Marrickville Golf Club.
20:24
Speaker 7: Included in that was funding to fix the sewerage.
20:29
Speaker 1: And joining me now to discuss is physician and policy
20:32
Speaker 1: expert Dr Nick Coatsworth and News24 host Joe Hildebrand. Great
20:36
Speaker 1: to see you, bro. Great to be here. How are you? Nick,
20:39
Speaker 1: I mean, we're getting to the point where it is
20:40
Speaker 1: actually hard to trust what the Prime Minister says because he,
20:44
Speaker 1: you know, his story keeps changing. And this issue in
20:47
Speaker 1: particular keeps dragging on because we've heard so many different
20:50
Speaker 1: versions of it.
20:52
Speaker 10: Shari, I mean, he's really tying himself in knots here,
20:55
Speaker 10: the PM. Look, on the one hand, he is the
20:57
Speaker 10: Prime Minister. He's got a lot on. He's got a
20:59
Speaker 10: lot to manage. On the other hand, because he is
21:02
Speaker 10: the Prime Minister, he's got a lot of staffers around
21:05
Speaker 10: who should be able to tell him this sort of information.
21:07
Speaker 10: And I do think it's a bad look. I mean,
21:09
Speaker 10: to start with, we've had constitutional expert Anne Toomey talking
21:13
Speaker 10: about soft and grey corruption with regard to federal funding
21:18
Speaker 10: to these sort of state government projects. And now we
21:20
Speaker 10: find that the state government was in fact funding at
21:23
Speaker 10: all along in parallel to the $ 6 million that was
21:26
Speaker 10: given to the Marrickville Golf Club. So it's really a
21:29
Speaker 10: problem for the PM that's not going away and I
21:32
Speaker 10: suspect he wishes it will.
21:34
Speaker 1: I mean, Joe, at the heart of this issue is
21:36
Speaker 1: that you have so many families and small businesses doing
21:41
Speaker 1: it extremely tough at the moment. They hear, you know,
21:44
Speaker 1: there's a $ 6 million grant in the Prime Minister's electorate
21:47
Speaker 1: to the golf club he was meant to be a
21:48
Speaker 1: member of. He claims he wasn't. And then, you know,
21:51
Speaker 1: it's just the constant... I don't know if it's too
21:54
Speaker 1: harsh to say he was misleading Parliament, but he withdrew
21:57
Speaker 1: the earlier evidence he gave to Parliament.
21:59
Speaker 9: Yeah, well, I think the situation actually changed between him
22:02
Speaker 9: announcing the funding that he announced and then where it
22:05
Speaker 9: ended up going because the state government came in and
22:07
Speaker 9: fixed the bit that the funding was originally going to
22:10
Speaker 9: go to.
22:10
Speaker 7: But anyway, getting all that out of the way, I've
22:13
Speaker 7: got a.
22:13
Speaker 9: Unique insight into this story because I actually live right
22:16
Speaker 9: next to the Marrickville golf course.
22:19
Speaker 7: It's a very, very humble, modest golf course.
22:21
Speaker 1: You are a member.
22:22
Speaker 9: I don't think I am a member, unless they've made
22:23
Speaker 9: me an honorary member as well. I've never swung a
22:25
Speaker 9: club in anger. But what I do do is go
22:29
Speaker 9: out and walk or run the dog on it every day,
22:31
Speaker 9: which is what all the locals do.
22:32
Speaker 7: It is a completely public golf course. The clubhouse, it's.
22:37
Speaker 9: Not some sort of sprawling mansion that people seem to
22:39
Speaker 9: have in their heads when they think of perhaps other
22:41
Speaker 9: golf clubs.
22:42
Speaker 1: It's still $ 6 million, Joe.
22:43
Speaker 7: No, no, it is.
22:44
Speaker 9: The golf course floods every time there's heavy rain or
22:48
Speaker 9: a storm. stormwater comes in and puts the whole thing underwater.
22:53
Speaker 9: And he was right when he said it is a
22:54
Speaker 9: health and a sewage risk. It washes up all this
22:57
Speaker 9: rubbish and everything from the Cooks River. So it's not just,
23:01
Speaker 9: you know, it's not this sort of fancy la-di-da Royal Australian.
23:04
Speaker 9: It's jokingly called the Royal and Ancient Marrickville Golf Club
23:08
Speaker 9: because it is such a sort of bogan working class
23:12
Speaker 9: every day, every man's.
23:13
Speaker 1: the Prime Minister's backflip. He constantly changes his story.
23:17
Speaker 7: Yeah, I don't think it was.
23:18
Speaker 1: Even Helen Haynes was raising this as an issue. That's
23:21
Speaker 1: why he was issuing the dirt sheet on her.
23:24
Speaker 7: The dirt questions.
23:26
Speaker 1: The dirt questions. It was actually an integrity sheet, not
23:29
Speaker 1: a dirt sheet.
23:29
Speaker 7: That's fair, an integrity sheet. That's saying what a great.
23:31
Speaker 1: Job she's doing for her community. Never heard of an
23:32
Speaker 1: integrity sheet from the dirt unit. All right, Senator Fatima Payman,
23:37
Speaker 1: you might have seen these comments already tonight. She's made
23:39
Speaker 1: some unsavoury comments as Helen Haynes is recovering from losing
23:43
Speaker 1: both of her legs. Yet Payman asked the Prime Minister
23:47
Speaker 1: if he was waiting for a Helen Haynes-style attack before
23:50
Speaker 1: she could get more staff. Have a look.
23:53
Speaker 11: My staff are burning out. They can't take this any longer.
24:02
Speaker 11: And is the Prime Minister waiting for something like what
24:05
Speaker 11: happened to Dr Helen Haynes to occur to my office,
24:08
Speaker 11: to me, for him to take our request seriously?
24:13
Speaker 1: I mean, Nick, she has been rightly criticised for this,
24:17
Speaker 1: for using the Helen Haynes tragedy to try get more staff.
24:21
Speaker 10: Well, it's the wrong thing to do. It's clearly the
24:23
Speaker 10: wrong thing to do. It's an enormously long bow to draw.
24:26
Speaker 10: I think, Sherry, we know that. On the other hand,
24:30
Speaker 10: I think she is without staff and she is the
24:33
Speaker 10: victim of what we know to be a quite vindictive
24:35
Speaker 10: Labor Party. And when you look at the numbers that
24:38
Speaker 10: were reported today comparing Senator Payman's staff and some of
24:41
Speaker 10: the other senators, I think we can say that she
24:44
Speaker 10: has a point. I just have no idea why she
24:47
Speaker 10: raised it in reference to what's happened today. to Helen Haynes,
24:52
Speaker 10: the tragedy that occurred last week. So that was clearly
24:55
Speaker 10: the wrong thing to do. On the other hand, you know,
24:59
Speaker 10: Senator Payman's clearly distressed by this. And I think there
25:04
Speaker 10: is an interesting question about why she's not getting more
25:08
Speaker 10: staff and whether that is the famous, you know, if
25:13
Speaker 10: you cross us, you're against us and we'll never forget
25:15
Speaker 10: it attitude of the Labor Party at play here. Well,
25:18
Speaker 10: it's probably prima facie evidence of that.
25:21
Speaker 1: I mean, Pauline Hanson also, you know, wants more staff. Joe,
25:24
Speaker 1: I think there is nothing more boring than politicians claiming
25:27
Speaker 1: they don't have enough staff. Come on.
25:29
Speaker 4: I know.
25:30
Speaker 7: It is absolutely... I'm going to.
25:34
Speaker 7: Fatima Payman should not be in the parliament.
25:36
Speaker 1: Agreed.
25:37
Speaker 7: She is a rat.
25:37
Speaker 9: She was elected as a Labor Party senator. She then
25:42
Speaker 9: decided that she wasn't going to follow the most basic,
25:45
Speaker 9: fundamental rule of the Labor Party, which is that you
25:48
Speaker 9: follow the caucus and you agree with what the caucus says.
25:51
Speaker 9: You have your say inside the caucus, but you present
25:54
Speaker 9: a united front outside of it. If she did not
25:57
Speaker 9: know that, then she is too stupid to be in
26:00
Speaker 9: the parliament. If she knew it and willingly blew herself
26:04
Speaker 9: up over Palestine... then she should accept the courage of
26:09
Speaker 9: her convictions and also leave the parliament because she was
26:11
Speaker 9: elected to be there as a Labor senator. She has
26:15
Speaker 9: no place there. And you can actually see, I think,
26:17
Speaker 9: in her public statements time and time and time again
26:20
Speaker 9: that she is 100% out of her depth. She, I think,
26:24
Speaker 9: in the Helen Haynes thing, I think it's possible it's
26:26
Speaker 9: gone even beyond kind of distasteful or disgusting in comparing
26:30
Speaker 9: her situation to that of a woman who just lost
26:32
Speaker 9: both her legs at the hands of a guy who
26:34
Speaker 9: allegedly just tried to kill her. The fact that she's
26:37
Speaker 9: even comparing that allegedly, allegedly, as I said, but.
26:41
Speaker 7: But the fact that.
26:41
Speaker 9: She's even making this statement shows that she is simply
26:45
Speaker 9: not bright enough to grasp that the two situations are
26:49
Speaker 9: completely and utterly separate. We are not talking about extra security.
26:53
Speaker 9: We are just talking about extra staffers. What, if she
26:55
Speaker 9: doesn't make more TikTok videos, that could happen to her?
26:58
Speaker 9: I mean, what on earth is she talking about? She
27:00
Speaker 9: is unfit for parliament and she is there under a
27:03
Speaker 9: false pretense.
27:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, well said. I would just Quickly clarifying, in case
27:07
Speaker 1: anyone complains that when you described her rat, obviously that
27:10
Speaker 1: was metaphoric to refer to her betrayal. A rat is
27:12
Speaker 1: what you call someone who betrays a party or a faction. Exactly. Now, Nick,
27:18
Speaker 1: on this next topic, I'm really interested to get your
27:20
Speaker 1: take as a medical doctor, because have a look at
27:24
Speaker 1: what the Sex Discrimination Commissioner, Anna Cody, said today when
27:29
Speaker 1: she was asked about breastfeeding and breastfeeding women.
27:33
Speaker 5: And.
27:34
Speaker 1: Who else should be protected? Have a look.
27:37
Speaker 12: Does the Commission interpret Section 7AA as providing breastfeeding discrimination
27:42
Speaker 12: protections to a biological male who identifies as a woman
27:46
Speaker 12: and induces lactation?
27:49
Speaker 1: Yes, Senator.
27:51
Speaker 12: Does the Commission believe an employer should be legally required
27:54
Speaker 12: or are they legally required to provide lactation breaks and
27:58
Speaker 12: breastfeeding facilities to a biological male who has medically induced lactation.
28:04
Speaker 1: They are subject to the same protections as anyone who
28:07
Speaker 1: is breastfeeding. I mean, this is just ridiculous. I mean,
28:12
Speaker 1: breastfeeding breaks, Nick Coatsworth, to biological men who induce lactation.
28:18
Speaker 1: Is this medically possible?
28:19
Speaker 10: Oh, I mean, note your question, Shari. Is it medically possible?
28:26
Speaker 10: Of course it's medically possible. I mean, Joe and I
28:28
Speaker 10: both have mammary tissue. And if you give us enough hormones,
28:31
Speaker 10: we'll produce milk. And before woke was even a word,
28:36
Speaker 10: there were instances, medical instances. They were exceptionally rare, but
28:40
Speaker 10: hormone-producing tumours, reactions to drugs, various things that would induce
28:45
Speaker 10: lactation in a man. So the question, if I can
28:49
Speaker 10: perhaps turn it in a different direction and perhaps Joe
28:52
Speaker 10: can answer this one, it's not whether it's medically possible,
28:55
Speaker 10: but it's whether it should occur for those reasons and
28:58
Speaker 10: in whose interest. Is it being done in the reasons
29:01
Speaker 10: that are under discussion in front of the AHRC today?
29:06
Speaker 7: Good point.
29:07
Speaker 1: And the other thing that was revealed is that the
29:10
Speaker 1: commission actually paid a PR company to get advice on
29:14
Speaker 1: how to handle the questions before they gave evidence. And
29:17
Speaker 1: even with all that, PR expertise, that's the kind of
29:21
Speaker 1: performance they gave Jo.
29:22
Speaker 7: I would definitely be asking for my money back on
29:24
Speaker 7: that one.
29:25
Speaker 9: Whoever the Sex Discrimination Commissioners, PR gurus are, I would
29:31
Speaker 9: strongly recommend putting that out to tender tomorrow and getting
29:34
Speaker 9: someone new. I could even make a few recommendations, if
29:37
Speaker 9: you like, because every time, Ship, in the last couple
29:41
Speaker 9: of sessions, it's been an absolute disaster.
29:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, the point is men cannot breastfeed.
29:46
Speaker 9: Well, I think Nick's point was a really, really good one,
29:48
Speaker 9: which is that there is a very, very small number
29:51
Speaker 9: of people I know or have read of in the
29:54
Speaker 9: trans community who who want the experience of breastfeeding, even
29:57
Speaker 9: though the nourishment of that breast milk is not going
30:02
Speaker 9: to be anywhere near as good for the child as
30:05
Speaker 9: either formula or natural formula.
30:06
Speaker 7: Breast milk.
30:07
Speaker 9: So as Nick sort of alluded to, it is people
30:09
Speaker 9: who want to sort of cosplay the role of a
30:11
Speaker 9: breastfeeding mother rather than actually thinking about what is in
30:15
Speaker 9: the nutritional best interests.
30:18
Speaker 7: Of the child. And I have no idea how I
30:19
Speaker 7: know all this, but somehow I absorbed it.
30:21
Speaker 1: I'm pleased you do.
30:22
Speaker 7: All right.
30:22
Speaker 1: Nick must have.
30:23
Speaker 7: Sent it to me over the beta wave.
30:24
Speaker 10: All right.
30:24
Speaker 7: Great to see you both. Thank you very much. Lovely
30:26
Speaker 7: to be here.
30:29
Speaker 1: All right, still to come, we'll cross to Israel as
30:31
Speaker 1: voters head to the polls. And New South Wales Premier
30:34
Speaker 1: Chris Min says he could lose to One Nation at
30:38
Speaker 1: the next election. That's his admission on a story we've
30:40
Speaker 1: been reporting for weeks. We'll talk about that with Ben
30:43
Speaker 1: English after the break. Well, Victorians head to the polls
30:51
Speaker 1: next month and New South Wales voters have an election
30:54
Speaker 1: in March. Now, we've been reporting that One Nation is
30:57
Speaker 1: likely to be opposition or government in New South Wales.
31:01
Speaker 1: And today, in an interview with Ben Fordham, Premier Chris
31:04
Speaker 1: Minns said the same thing.
31:07
Speaker 13: One Nation are surging and they're getting a big, big
31:10
Speaker 13: chunk of the vote.
31:12
Speaker 14: And the truth of the matter is that if we
31:14
Speaker 14: lose the next election, we'll lose.
31:16
Speaker 1: To One Nation. And joining me now is Daily Telegraph
31:19
Speaker 1: editor Ben English. Ben, great to see you. You too.
31:22
Speaker 1: And he also said if they win, One Nation will
31:26
Speaker 1: be the opposition. Mike Newman.
31:27
Speaker 14: Yeah, and he's not in Parliament. And in fact, we're
31:31
Speaker 14: looking at a situation where Kelly Sloan and the Liberals,
31:34
Speaker 14: we've talked about this on other nights, Shari, they're looking
31:37
Speaker 14: at a complete wipeout because we've got this optional preferential
31:41
Speaker 14: system here in New South Wales, which is going to
31:43
Speaker 14: advantage One Nation and certainly disadvantage the coalition, particularly if
31:48
Speaker 14: they come third in a lot of these polls. And
31:49
Speaker 14: it's showing so far that that's what's going to happen.
31:53
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be a really difficult outcome
31:55
Speaker 1: because at the moment Chris Menz is on 46 seats.
31:58
Speaker 1: That's right.
31:59
Speaker 2: Right.
32:00
Speaker 1: So he's just got.
32:02
Speaker 7: He's technically in a minority.
32:04
Speaker 1: Minority.
32:04
Speaker 6: Right.
32:04
Speaker 7: 46 seats.
32:06
Speaker 1: I hear One Nation's expecting to get around 24, 25 seats.
32:11
Speaker 1: The Liberals might get 14 seats. And then if Chris
32:14
Speaker 1: Minns loses a bunch, you know, in the Hunter, which
32:18
Speaker 1: he's expected to do, and maybe some others. So no
32:22
Speaker 1: one will be in a position to form a government.
32:24
Speaker 14: Yeah, and look, this is a long way out.
32:27
Speaker 7: We've got a long way to go.
32:28
Speaker 1: Well, it's only, what, five months away.
32:30
Speaker 14: Five months, yes. And there's a lot of scrutiny that
32:33
Speaker 14: needs to be placed on all three parties and particularly
32:36
Speaker 14: One Nation.
32:37
Speaker 7: You're right.
32:38
Speaker 14: That's exactly how it's tracking at the moment. But anyone
32:41
Speaker 14: who tells you they know how these seats are.
32:43
Speaker 7: Going to roll, they're lying. They don't know.
32:46
Speaker 14: But that's the point, isn't it? It's a complete unknown
32:50
Speaker 14: and we're looking at a chaotic next six months.
32:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is indeed. And you can see that Chris
32:55
Speaker 1: Minns is starting to focus on One Nation as the
32:58
Speaker 1: main opposition and almost ignore poor old Kelly, who's doing
33:02
Speaker 1: an excellent job, by the way.
33:03
Speaker 7: She's doing a good job.
33:05
Speaker 14: But I think the whole Liberal brand is, as we know,
33:08
Speaker 14: struggling to cut through. And it's very telling that most
33:11
Speaker 14: of Minns' attacks are either going against Mike Newman and
33:14
Speaker 14: One Nation or more frequently against Anthony Albanese.
33:17
Speaker 1: Well, exactly, because Menz is dealing with Albo, Kelly is
33:20
Speaker 1: dealing with the Liberal brand. Tough for all of them. Now,
33:23
Speaker 1: I want to talk about this coffee cup issue. Ben Fordham, again,
33:26
Speaker 1: was talking about it this morning. Now, I hate the
33:29
Speaker 1: ban on the plastic straws. Can I even say it?
33:31
Speaker 1: I don't like the ban on the plastic bags. And
33:34
Speaker 1: now they're talking about banning coffee cups, Ben.
33:37
Speaker 14: Yeah, first the straws and the bags, now our coffee cups.
33:40
Speaker 14: This is an absolute debacle. And even Chris Minns is confused.
33:44
Speaker 14: I don't think anyone in the government understands this legislation.
33:47
Speaker 14: I certainly don't. On one hand, they're saying they're going
33:52
Speaker 14: to be fined $ 110, 000 if they don't provide keep cups.
33:57
Speaker 14: I mean, what sort of hole in the wall baristas
33:59
Speaker 14: are going to be able to do this? It's a
34:01
Speaker 14: complete mess. And at the height of a cost of
34:04
Speaker 14: living crisis, this is such dumb politics.
34:07
Speaker 1: Threatening a $ 100, 000 fine. It's insanity. They've got to drop it.
34:12
Speaker 7: It'll go.
34:14
Speaker 1: John Howard, in your paper, has criticised the public service.
34:17
Speaker 1: What's he saying?
34:18
Speaker 14: Well, he's saying that the public service, dubbed the lanyard gentry,
34:22
Speaker 14: because they all walk around with lanyards, are stifling productivity
34:27
Speaker 14: and strangling the economy. And he's right, because we know
34:31
Speaker 14: it's unarguable that a public servant, as much as... You know,
34:36
Speaker 14: they're paid. They pay 10% more than ordinary private sector
34:40
Speaker 14: workers doing the same work. They get 15% or 16%
34:44
Speaker 14: superannuation compared to 11% for the rest of us. And
34:49
Speaker 14: they get a whole bunch of other public holidays that
34:51
Speaker 14: we don't get. They're less productive. Also, more than 50%
34:54
Speaker 14: of them work from home more than three days a week.
34:57
Speaker 14: So that's why we've got a productivity crisis. They're crowding
35:00
Speaker 14: out the private sector. and they're actually not working very hard.
35:03
Speaker 1: I mean, businesses, I noticed Maya last week is saying
35:06
Speaker 1: workers have to get back into the office. I mean,
35:08
Speaker 1: the public service should do the same, although which politician's
35:11
Speaker 1: going to do that? Because that's what Peter Dutton said,
35:13
Speaker 1: and it really cost him.
35:14
Speaker 14: It cost him big time because then it sort of
35:16
Speaker 14: got conflated to everyone. But I'm wondering about Canberra. There's
35:20
Speaker 14: a lot of rented space there. I'm told more than
35:23
Speaker 14: $ 700 million worth of building, worth of rent paid out
35:27
Speaker 14: of our budget. for rented buildings for public servants. Now,
35:30
Speaker 14: if they're not working there and they're working from home,
35:32
Speaker 14: why are you paying $ 700 million a year?
35:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's massive. Now, I want to talk about this story.
35:38
Speaker 1: Sarah Henderson grilled the ABC at Senate Estimates today and
35:43
Speaker 1: she grilled the ABC about why it hired a Hamas
35:46
Speaker 1: candidate terrorist, an actual Hamas terrorist, as a journalist. Now,
35:51
Speaker 1: this is a journalist who was killed a few weeks
35:54
Speaker 1: after October 7, and when he was killed, ABC eulogised
35:58
Speaker 1: him on air. If we've got the grab, let's have
36:01
Speaker 1: a quick look at Sarah Henderson grilling the ABC here.
36:06
Speaker 14: This person.
36:08
Speaker 1: Has been identified as a fighter in the Hamas military wing,
36:13
Speaker 1: Mr Rushdie al-Sarraj.
36:17
Speaker 13: Have you investigated that at all? Well, as I said, Senator,
36:22
Speaker 13: that's not the information that we have been able to ascertain.
36:25
Speaker 13: And until we hear otherwise, I think he remains a
36:32
Speaker 13: person listed as a journalist.
36:34
Speaker 1: So, Ben, the ABC's ultimate position was that it's up
36:38
Speaker 1: to the IDF to prove that he's a terrorist rather
36:41
Speaker 1: than the ABC proving that he's a journalist.
36:44
Speaker 14: This is just unbelievable. I mean, what sort of vetting
36:47
Speaker 14: goes on? But are we surprised? They accept incuriously all
36:51
Speaker 14: the propaganda from Hamas as official news. And there's no
36:55
Speaker 14: sort of interrogation of the bile that's spewed out by Hamas,
36:59
Speaker 14: so why would they actually do proper vetting of people
37:02
Speaker 14: who want to work for the ABC as journalists from Hamas?
37:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's unbelievable. I mean, they are investigating it now,
37:07
Speaker 1: but the answers today were so different. unimpressive and disappointing.
37:11
Speaker 14: And they'll mark their own homework and it'll just be
37:13
Speaker 14: a whitewash.
37:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. They'll say, oh, IDF gave us no evidence. Well,
37:18
Speaker 1: where's your investigation instead of expecting Israel to hand over intelligence?
37:21
Speaker 1: Before you go, Ben, there's a new News Corp campaign
37:24
Speaker 1: called Back Australia. This is highlighting the struggles of business
37:29
Speaker 1: owners but also showcasing the success of companies.
37:32
Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely.
37:32
Speaker 14: It's as much a challenge as it is trying to
37:35
Speaker 14: inspire Australians to get behind... Dinky dye Aussie firms. And
37:40
Speaker 14: it is struggle time for Australian manufacturing. But at the
37:44
Speaker 14: same time, there are some great companies that are emerging,
37:47
Speaker 14: and so we're getting right behind them. And we're also
37:50
Speaker 14: exposing where Aussie firms and Aussie consumers are getting ripped
37:54
Speaker 14: off blind by fake Chinese companies pretending to be dinky dye.
37:58
Speaker 14: That's in tomorrow.
37:59
Speaker 1: Oh, good. OK, we'll have a look at it in
38:01
Speaker 1: The Telegraph tomorrow. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.
38:03
Speaker 1: And you've got a great front page on Albanese and
38:06
Speaker 1: the golf club, so we'll check that out. Yeah, there
38:09
Speaker 1: it is.
38:09
Speaker 14: Good headline too.
38:10
Speaker 1: Something smells. It is a good headline, if you don't
38:12
Speaker 1: say so yourself, Ben.
38:13
Speaker 5: Thanks.
38:14
Speaker 1: All right, still to come, how Labor's tax changes are
38:17
Speaker 1: hitting the very businesses that are keeping our economy moving.
38:21
Speaker 1: And the latest on the Israeli election with Elon Levy
38:24
Speaker 1: after the break. Thanks for tuning in. Well, it's coming
38:30
Speaker 1: up to midday local time in Israel and millions of
38:34
Speaker 1: voters are heading to the polls. It's the first election
38:37
Speaker 1: since the October 7 attacks. According to I24 polls, Benjamin
38:42
Speaker 1: Netanyahu's party is leading on 26 seats, while Gadi Eisenkot's
38:46
Speaker 1: party slightly behind on 21, although all the polls have
38:51
Speaker 1: slightly different result. For more on this now, we'll cross
38:54
Speaker 1: live to Tel Aviv. Former Israeli government spokesman Elon Levy
38:57
Speaker 1: joins us. Elon, great to see you again, and I've
38:59
Speaker 1: been loving your election podcast. Now, at this point, neither
39:04
Speaker 1: bloc is predicted to win a 61-seat majority, which is
39:07
Speaker 1: needed to form government. Is that right?
39:11
Speaker 8: Well, first, Shari, let me bring you an update from
39:13
Speaker 8: the ground. Israelis are experiencing the highest voter turnout since 1981. 16.7%
39:18
Speaker 8: of Israelis, over 1.2 million voters, already went to the
39:22
Speaker 8: polls in the first three hours of polling stations opening.
39:32
Speaker 8: We're talking about the highest voter turnout in well over
39:36
Speaker 8: a generation. There really is a feeling in this country.
39:39
Speaker 8: on all sides that this is a critical election for
39:42
Speaker 8: the future of the country. We probably will have the
39:45
Speaker 8: highest turnout that we've seen in decades because the results
39:48
Speaker 8: are still unclear. The polls are all over the place.
39:51
Speaker 8: The possibility that either bloc can win an outright majority
39:56
Speaker 8: is currently unlikely. And so everyone is making a huge
40:00
Speaker 8: effort to get their voters to come out to the
40:03
Speaker 8: polling stations, make it clear that the future of the
40:05
Speaker 8: country really is at stake.
40:08
Speaker 1: So the first question is, when do you think we'll
40:11
Speaker 1: get an idea of where the seats are falling? How many?
40:15
Speaker 1: I mean, Naftali Bennett, correct me if I'm wrong, he's
40:18
Speaker 1: pulled behind a bit. It's really Gadi and Bibi that
40:21
Speaker 1: are the front runners.
40:23
Speaker 8: Israel has a... proportional representation system with lists and the
40:27
Speaker 8: next Knesset will have maybe a dozen parties. So even
40:31
Speaker 8: if Gadi Aysenkot is the leading contender in the opposition bloc,
40:35
Speaker 8: it doesn't necessarily mean he'll be prime minister if they
40:38
Speaker 8: form have a majority. There's a lot of coalition horseplay
40:42
Speaker 8: going on. But here's the timetable for what will happen. Tonight,
40:45
Speaker 8: 10 p.m. Israel time, we will have exit polls. The
40:48
Speaker 8: exit polls are not a preliminary count. It's just a poll.
40:51
Speaker 8: They've been horribly wrong in the past before, but that
40:54
Speaker 8: should give us a sense. My feeling, it will be
40:57
Speaker 8: too close for anyone to feel confident with the exit polls.
41:00
Speaker 8: By the morning, most of the votes will have been counted.
41:06
Speaker 8: If it's not very close, we'll know. But there are
41:08
Speaker 8: currently three, maybe four parties that are polling around the
41:12
Speaker 8: electoral threshold of three and a quarter percent. They might
41:15
Speaker 8: just squeeze in. They might fall below. And whether those
41:19
Speaker 8: parties make it into the next Knesset could change the
41:22
Speaker 8: balance of power between those two blocs. In short, it
41:25
Speaker 8: may take two days to get final results, even before
41:28
Speaker 8: the appeals, and it will be an absolute nail-biter.
41:31
Speaker 11: Mm-hmm.
41:32
Speaker 1: Now, just to talk through some of the issues that
41:34
Speaker 1: is sparking this massive voter turnout that you've just told
41:38
Speaker 1: us about. Now, one of the critical issues is whether
41:42
Speaker 1: there should be a more extensive inquiry into the failings
41:47
Speaker 1: before October 7. Now, there have been various inquiries, but
41:51
Speaker 1: not a full-blown inquiry.
41:54
Speaker 8: The opposition parties are promising that their first act in
41:57
Speaker 8: government will be to establish a State Commission of Inquiry.
42:01
Speaker 8: into the October 7th massacre to make sure that that
42:03
Speaker 8: can never happen again. Netanyahu is the only leader, the
42:09
Speaker 8: only political military intelligence leader who has not taken responsibility,
42:13
Speaker 8: put his keys on the table and gone home. The
42:15
Speaker 8: opposition parties are saying that if you were in power
42:18
Speaker 8: when this happened, you have to take responsibility and you
42:21
Speaker 8: have to let us investigate that. Netanyahu is turning to
42:24
Speaker 8: the Israeli people and saying the October 7th massacre was
42:28
Speaker 8: a disaster. It wasn't my fault. It was an intelligence failure.
42:32
Speaker 8: And in any case, look how I turned things around.
42:34
Speaker 8: I've run a really successful war that killed all the
42:37
Speaker 8: terrorist leaders around us. And I am the right man
42:40
Speaker 8: to finish the job. So you have those two questions
42:43
Speaker 8: really facing Israelis in the elections. One, responsibility for October
42:48
Speaker 8: 7th and accountability. But also the question of who is
42:50
Speaker 8: the right person to finish the job? Who is going
42:53
Speaker 8: to bring enduring security for the Jewish people in our homeland?
42:58
Speaker 8: because Hamas is still the government of Gaza, the Iranian
43:01
Speaker 8: regime is still building ballistic missiles and its nuclear weapons program,
43:05
Speaker 8: and we are far from being out of the danger zone.
43:08
Speaker 1: And on that question of finishing the job, I mean,
43:10
Speaker 1: President Donald Trump issued another statement just yesterday, reposting his
43:16
Speaker 1: earlier statement saying that Benjamin Netanyahu should be re-elected so
43:21
Speaker 1: that they can effectively finish the job together. Now, I
43:25
Speaker 1: know Trump is very popular with a lot of Israelis,
43:28
Speaker 1: so that would have carried some weight, wouldn't it, that endorsement?
43:33
Speaker 8: Israelis don't like being told who to vote for, and
43:35
Speaker 8: I think everyone assumed that Netanyahu is Trump's favorite candidate.
43:39
Speaker 8: But here's the really important point. There is total consensus
43:42
Speaker 8: in Israel that the Iranian regime is a severe strategic
43:46
Speaker 8: existential threat to Israel. This is a regime that is
43:49
Speaker 8: still committed to the destruction of our country that has
43:53
Speaker 8: impoverished the Iranian people and enslaved the entire Middle East
43:58
Speaker 8: to advance the destruction of the state of Israel. So
44:01
Speaker 8: whoever becomes prime minister, is going to want to finish
44:04
Speaker 8: that threat from the Iranians. For what it's worth, Netanyahu
44:08
Speaker 8: posted a picture yesterday, an AI image of a nuclear
44:12
Speaker 8: bomb falling on Tel Aviv, warning that if he is
44:15
Speaker 8: not elected, Israel will face nuclear Armageddon. The opposition is saying,
44:20
Speaker 8: that's nonsense. None of us are taking risks with Israel's security.
44:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's extraordinary. And on that point of security, I mean,
44:27
Speaker 1: Naftali Bennett, Gadi Eisenkot and Netanyahu are really on the
44:32
Speaker 1: same page, aren't they? I mean, this is the most
44:35
Speaker 1: important issue for Israeli citizens.
44:38
Speaker 7: I think where the.
44:39
Speaker 8: Parties really differ is on who is going to provide
44:43
Speaker 8: that security, because Israelis are exhausted from three years of
44:48
Speaker 8: war with hundreds of days of reserve duty. And the
44:51
Speaker 8: most pressing question inside Israel is the exemption from military
44:56
Speaker 8: service for the ultra-Orthodox community, the fastest growing population. They
45:01
Speaker 8: are exempt from military service. They want to enshrine that
45:05
Speaker 8: in law. And the opposition parties are saying it is
45:08
Speaker 8: absolutely unthinkable. that young men in their 30s who should
45:12
Speaker 8: be building startups and the next tech unicorns are doing
45:15
Speaker 8: 600 days in reserve duty because perfectly healthy young men
45:20
Speaker 8: want to study religious texts all day and not fight
45:23
Speaker 8: in the army. And it's unthinkable that the parties that
45:25
Speaker 8: represent these draft dodgers are sitting in the cabinet and
45:29
Speaker 8: sending our sons into battle. So the opposition is saying, look,
45:33
Speaker 8: everyone wants to take Israel's security seriously. We're the only
45:37
Speaker 8: ones who are going to spread the burden of national
45:40
Speaker 8: defense more evenly to make sure we have enough troops
45:44
Speaker 8: to keep our borders safe, while Netanyahu is 100% dependent
45:49
Speaker 8: on the ultra-Orthodox parties that do not want any of
45:52
Speaker 8: their men to enlist in the army.
45:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, look, you can completely understand as a parent why
45:57
Speaker 1: this issue is something that makes people so angry. OK, Elon,
46:02
Speaker 1: what's your prediction? I'm not asking you who you want
46:04
Speaker 1: to win. I know that. I'm asking what's your prediction?
46:08
Speaker 8: Nobody has ever bet against Netanyahu and won that bet.
46:13
Speaker 8: But I think the opposition in Israel has more momentum
46:17
Speaker 8: at the moment. There is a greater sense of urgency
46:21
Speaker 8: among the opposition to go out and vote and more
46:23
Speaker 8: frustration and dissatisfaction on Netanyahu's side. I think that differential
46:28
Speaker 8: turnout may swing it. I think it's unlikely that the
46:31
Speaker 8: Zionist opposition bloc will win an outright majority of 61.
46:36
Speaker 8: But if Netanyahu's bloc gets 61 seats, I will fall
46:40
Speaker 8: off my chair and you can broadcast that live.
46:42
Speaker 1: But then who's the PM? Is it Gadi?
46:46
Speaker 8: That will be a whole question of coalition dynamics and
46:49
Speaker 8: which of the smaller parties manage to peep it in.
46:51
Speaker 8: It really will come down to a single seat. And, Shari,
46:54
Speaker 8: there's a possibility, we're not talking about enough, There is
46:57
Speaker 8: a chance that if there's deadlock, Israel goes back to
47:00
Speaker 8: elections as early as April. It's happened before. It can
47:03
Speaker 8: happen again.
47:04
Speaker 1: No one wants that. Elon Levy, thank you very much.
47:06
Speaker 3: Please no.
47:06
Speaker 8: Please no.
47:07
Speaker 4: Exactly.
47:08
Speaker 1: All right. Thanks for your time. All right. Coming up,
47:11
Speaker 1: business leaders urge the Treasurer to cut spending as they
47:14
Speaker 1: bear the brunt of Labor's tax changes. That's next. Welcome back. Well,
47:22
Speaker 1: there's new analysis from the National Tax and Accountants Association
47:26
Speaker 1: which shows small businesses are copying the government's tax changes
47:29
Speaker 1: far worse than high-earning counterparts. Now, to break it down,
47:33
Speaker 1: a husband and wife duo who share $ 113, 000 through a
47:36
Speaker 1: trust would be forced to pay $ 19, 000 more once income
47:37
Speaker 1: from trust's are taxed at 30%. Then you compare it
47:46
Speaker 1: to a couple on $ 400, 000 combined who will increase their
47:50
Speaker 1: tax bill by $ 8, 000. To explain this further, Council of
47:55
Speaker 1: Small Business Organisations Australia Chief Executive Skye Capuccio joins me now. Skye,
48:01
Speaker 1: thank you very much. So this is really, this just
48:04
Speaker 1: shows how hard it is for small businesses.
48:08
Speaker 6: It's great to be joining you tonight, Shari. Yeah, exactly.
48:11
Speaker 6: So we have 350,000 small family businesses operating through discretionary trusts.
48:18
Speaker 6: The vast majority of them are what we would call micro-businesses,
48:21
Speaker 6: which means they're turning over, not profiting, but turning over
48:25
Speaker 6: less than $ 2 million a year. They will now be
48:28
Speaker 6: subject to these discretionary trust tax changes if the bill
48:32
Speaker 6: on the table gets passed, which means they have three
48:35
Speaker 6: bad choices in front of them. They need to either
48:37
Speaker 6: accept a 30% minimum tax rate They need to restructure
48:42
Speaker 6: into a company to access a lower tax rate, but
48:45
Speaker 6: that's very costly. We think it's $ 15, 000 to $ 50, 000 per
48:49
Speaker 6: business just in advisory costs. Or they need to fix
48:53
Speaker 6: their distributions and not access the flexibility of the discretionary trust.
49:00
Speaker 6: But then when they choose to no longer fix those distributions,
49:04
Speaker 6: they will have a 47% tax rate in the year
49:08
Speaker 6: that they move away from the fixed election.
49:11
Speaker 1: I mean I think that's a point that you make,
49:13
Speaker 1: the cost of getting advice and red tape to follow
49:16
Speaker 1: the new laws that are consistently changing. I mean, that
49:20
Speaker 1: is a huge cost to businesses as well, on top
49:22
Speaker 1: of everything else. Now, the Treasury indicated there was no
49:26
Speaker 1: room to cut spending in the budget, but now business
49:29
Speaker 1: leaders are giving him some ideas. Gerry Harvey said that
49:33
Speaker 1: the biggest problem is the size of the public service
49:36
Speaker 1: and the cost to taxpayers for employing so many people.
49:39
Speaker 1: Then you've had former Chairman of Energy Australia, HSBC, Stockland
49:44
Speaker 1: and Grandcorp, Graeme Bradley, also gave a long list. He's
49:49
Speaker 1: saying the government needs to resize federal departments and means
49:53
Speaker 1: testing on welfare payments, freezing new federal government spending. I mean, Skye,
49:59
Speaker 1: there are a lot of ideas here, but ultimately spending
50:02
Speaker 1: is an issue for inflation. Exactly.
50:06
Speaker 6: One of the things small business would really like to
50:08
Speaker 6: see is a reduction in the unnecessary red tape impacting
50:12
Speaker 6: on small business, which speaks very coherently to the points
50:15
Speaker 6: that you have just raised that are being put on
50:18
Speaker 6: the table about reducing the size of the public service.
50:21
Speaker 6: as part of the reduction in public spending.
50:24
Speaker 1: What are some of the other ideas that you've heard
50:26
Speaker 1: put forward to reduce spending that you think would really help?
50:31
Speaker 6: Look, Shari, our focus is absolutely on supporting small business.
50:35
Speaker 6: So what we want to see is the economy performing
50:39
Speaker 6: really well, and we want to see the government backing
50:41
Speaker 6: small business. That means fair tax settings. It means reducing
50:46
Speaker 6: the red tap... Red tap... Red tape burden.
50:51
Speaker 8: Sorry for that.
50:52
Speaker 6: Red tape burden that small businesses are carrying. And it
50:55
Speaker 6: also means it needs us to be working with small
50:58
Speaker 6: business to reduce the increasing costs of doing business, the
51:02
Speaker 6: increasing cost of wages, the increasing cost of energy and
51:05
Speaker 6: the increasing cost of insurance.
51:07
Speaker 1: Look, it's just such a tough environment for small business
51:10
Speaker 1: at the moment. So good on you for speaking out.
51:13
Speaker 1: Thank you very much for your time, Skye. Thanks, Shari.
51:16
Speaker 1: And thanks so much, everyone, for your company this evening.
51:19
Speaker 1: I'll see you tomorrow night. Great show. James Patterson, Michael
51:22
Speaker 1: Kroger and more. I'll see you then. And here's Paul Murray.