Latest / WIPTHENRIP / Episode 2 - Christina Ballantyne
Transcript
- Ryan: Hi everyone, I'm Sydney. And I'm Ryan. And this is our video podcast called Whip. Then Rip. For episode two, we have guest Christina Ballantine, Los Angeles-based artist originally from Houston, ⁓ and founder of Oroboros. Check it out. I do want to start with the gripes. Okay, so Christina, what's frustrating, broken, or irritating in art and culture right now? Or you could even give us the LA Goss Talk. Or however you interpret this question. I mean, I'll do one that maybe everyone thinks about. It's twofold because this will be posted on Instagram. But I feel like Instagram with artists makes is is frustrating sometimes. It's been great because I've connected with so many people. That's how you and I met Sydney. And it'll feel like I know honestly through the internet that I don't know. And actually I meet them and I'm like, we are friends. Yeah. ⁓ but in other ways it kind of flattens work. I feel like a lot of it we're all we're all like loosely connected to each other in a more superficial way rather than deeply meeting up and talking about art. You know, although I've seen like a hundred paintings, but have I even like really seen anything like closely. And I was reading notes from the woodshed, I mentioned ⁓ that to you guys by Jack Witten. And he was he's talking all about how they go to Cedar Tavern in New York and they meet up and Everyone would talk about like they had the all these passionate conversations about art and like you just walk in and have a tab and hang out there all day. I mean, that's definitely me romanticizing it some too, I'm sure. But now it's like it's like a comment. Crazy fun fact for you the Cedar Tavern, like the actual physical bar, lives in Austin now. there's a restaurant here that refurbished it. And I always think it's this sort of I think it's really. Cool, you know, but it also is this sort of zombie right of exactly what you're talking about, where it's definitely not it's not a space that artists are necessarily congregating. And you know, it's just such an interesting symbol in the way that you're talking about with you know the state of art right now. I I actually wanted to ask you to talk more about like how you think about your own work going on Instagram, you know, within those confines or however you want to put that, like the like, yes, more democratic ⁓ version, but also, I don't know, like maybe populist in a not necessarily great way. I mean, I will say for myself, I feel like I see mostly benefits. Yeah. ⁓ you know, like so many more people can see things. I've made sales through it. ⁓ Just even people seeing what I'm up to. If you're a writer, like you can't just post it on people are gonna read it. So I feel like it is really nice in that way. On a personal level, I try and just keep it as a business tool. Like for my owner, I try to not think too much, like post it and then and you know, like you feel good, you feel good when you get the serotonin from the comments. Sure. I think there's there's good things in there, but I think it's probably worse. I think like the greater effects that it has on like society and talking about art and all those types of things. And it's just like I feel like I'm looking at an art LinkedIn plus like world atrocities, like right next to each other and just scrolling really fast. So I think limiting that is just super helpful. Well do you do you brick your phone or anything like that? Like do you enforce limits? I don't do anything like that. I try to not look at it before the studio. ⁓ that's and never never never in the studio. I can never pick up my phone and ⁓ look at it while I'm painting or anything. Do you have other input in the studio? Like do you listen to music or anything like that? I do listen to music. I actually just moved ⁓ studios in LA. I was in a studio for three years with no windows and it was like getting it was getting very hard to meet. Yeah, it was rough. It was rough. and then I moved To this area and it's like full of cars, tinting windows and like people selling speakers and stuff. So it's like very loud and I'm already hearing all of their music. ⁓ it's like a lot of throwbacks. Some some of it's good. I heard like Shaggy the other day. A lot of songs in Spanish. So it's actually it's actually if I take my headphones off, I'm still listening to music. Which is at first I was like, How is this gonna go? And I was like, ⁓ no. But then it's actually been pretty fun. Do you feel like it's getting into the work? Like, does it influence the way you paint? I don't think so. I think I've only been there for two weeks, so I don't even yeah, I don't know that much yet. But wanting to be there way more often is nice and I actually feel a little less isolated knowing that everyone's around there. And so I know the space looks crazy. Like it looks like a warehouse, even though I know it's not. It's an industrial building. So I share it Ish too. Ish is my husband. ⁓ Rolfin or it is Ryan. ⁓ so yeah, we're sharing the space and It's just been great. I'm like, I can actually hang out there at the other one. I was like in that like I didn't even know it was bad. So I feel like I'll I'm with someone where like if I get sick, I don't really know I'm sick. And then I'll be like, ⁓ whoa, I cannot be like this. You know what I'm saying? Like I feel like I'm not super aware at the time and then later I'm like, ⁓ my god, I feel better. But I would just go outside and like look at the sky and it was kind of sketchy around there. So then I just close the door and go back in. Like every every two hours. And I'd be like, and then I would deny it before I would even kind of dread going to the studio. It was just somewhat become the norm. I mean, I was lucky to still have one. I know I don't to sound like a huge brat. ⁓ but this one's just so much more connected with like life. ⁓ so yeah, I'm very it's I'm really happy about that. Yeah, I've been working out of my garage most of this year, and it's such a bittersweet thing because I've got two kiddos and it's like on the one hand good because y I can what you're talking about with life being right there, right? It's like my life is always there, but then also there's this challenge to actually disconnect and and get deeper into the work. ⁓ and it sounds like it r it remains to be seen whether or not your work will end up being like super influenced by that or if you'll just end up having sort of a how long have you been, ⁓ have you been in the garage? Just since the beginning of this year. ⁓ and yeah, it's new. And I yeah, ⁓ it's fine. It's fine as far as saving money. ⁓ Yeah. You're busy and working, it's also just like it's nice to be able to slip in for an hour, I'm sure. Yeah. It just doesn't have the boundaries, right? In the same way where Yeah. 'cause there's also, you know, laundry out there and all kinds of other shit. So Yeah, yeah. ⁓ Frank inside. Exactly. Yeah. ⁓ cool. So the gripe primarily is that social media is changing and perhaps fucking up the way that I mean, not only we process art, but also what you said about like art, like beautiful things next to the worst atrocities that are happening. ⁓ I maybe I'm Maybe this is I don't know, too early or out there or something, but that does make me wonder on that same point about things getting into the work. ⁓ does any of that sort of outside world come into your thinking in the paintings themselves too? Or is that also Sydney and I were talking about how your work has I'm trying to remember the word you use, but I was thinking ⁓ particularly the slightly older work has this like kind of fairy tale quality to it, some of it. There's a kind of ⁓ magic and and what's the word I want? I guess just ⁓ a certain type of beauty that feels like ⁓ a little dreamy, it feels a little bit you know, subconscious. And so I'm wondering like, do those very conscious, like topical things ever get in there? And also is that even is that read of your work even does that even sound accurate to you? Yeah, yeah. I mean I haven't been I haven't heard Fairy Tale, but I definitely don't mind that. Like I like that interpretation. I can tell you exactly why I went to Fairy Tale. ⁓ I'll have to I'd have to pull the painting up again, but there's a fence in one of the older paintings that looks just like the unicorn tapestry. Are there two two figures in it? Yeah. Yeah. But was that Fairy Taleish, yeah. That was from along four or five years ago. Five years ago? Okay. That's accurate. Yeah, but I could definitely see that with that painting. I think it used to more on a conscious level go into the work. also I feel like just as a human, when news relates to you a little more, it affects you more. You know? ⁓ whether that's a good or a bad thing. It's just like that's how it is. So ⁓ and I'm Lebanese, so I have family in Lebanon and everything happening there. Yeah. I think when I was in like now my my all my feet is like Middle East eye, Middle East Eye, like Al Jazeera. ⁓ and so I think it definitely you know, and especially I'm making figurative work, there are more there's iconography that had more charge of a specific thing. So I feel like that was definitely going into it, especially at first. ⁓ you know, people there like in my lifetime I wasn't around during the Civil War there. ⁓ and different things like that. So I feel like it was the first time that as a family member, I was like, you know, every day getting really anxious about it. ⁓ I feel like I wanna ask under the circumstances everybody's okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. ⁓ I mean it's just so horrific and disgusting, all of what's going on right now. and Yeah, so you're you're saying ⁓ it gets in there, but not necessarily in a way where you're not directly yeah. Yeah, less now, to be honest. Like it was more 'cause I feel like my work's almost gotten even less literal and more bodily. I mean you talk about that later, but so I think a little bit less less so now. But I work my work evolves and changes quite a bit if you haven't like noticed. ⁓ Yeah. I feel like your work has a combination of like lightness and heaviness, like with the colors, like there I mean, yes, with the colors, but also like with the aura. Like there's I feel like there's always like a glimmer of light or I was describing to Ryan like maybe they sometimes feel heavenly in a way to me. Or that's the word you use. Yeah. Or l ⁓ ancestral landscape. Like I I do feel like ancestry or like family ties. And also s is some of your earlier work too. ⁓ like there's this painting that you that I'm like obsessed with where there's a figure like laying in the ground and then there's like faces all over the body. ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah. That was you talk about that painting and what that's about. I think one of the biggest paintings I've made, ⁓ it's called Who Alls In You So it's just this figure and then ⁓ a bunch of different faces that are kind of exactly what you're saying, like who and what is in a person, like ancestral friends, families. So it was just like a bunch of different faces within this figure. And so it's sort of a ⁓ is literalize literalization a word? ⁓ making literal this idea of ancestry? Is that no, not even kind of just like how you're ⁓ or maybe influence? Influence and just like like we're changing and being shaped all the time by who we're interacting with most. You know? Like, yeah, of course, like you're just you're you're Sydney, but like you're really Sydney with all these different influences, like things that have actually like created you. Right. ⁓ so that's what I'm thinking about during it. But the faces aren't some faces were I think from old photographs, and some faces were just people's faces. And I always like there's certain p faces that I like love just to look at. and couples are like, I think I put you can't tell at all, but Leon Golub and Nancy Sparrow, do you guys know them? Or just couple? So like I put those two faces in it. And then let's see, I put, I can't remember, someone whose Lebanese that I really like in it. And then I think I have like a really old one of my grandma's grandma's like a lot of, you know, a lot of it's not literal in that sense. I'm taking all these different things. And a lot of times I just make the image and then kind of know what it was about afterwards. I feel like my words, it's really like an exercise and instinct, I'd say. Like as fast as I can think of something, I want to put it in. Yeah rather than one stage of planning. So like. And I feel like my work's gotten more and more abstract. Like it I had all these like sketches. I didn't even like painting. I actually kind of hated it. ⁓ but I just make it so no when I went to grad school from like painting, painting and like the style of the painting, the way you use the paint. And I was like, does that really matter? Like I I really it was a hard thing for me to comprehend. So I was like, isn't it just about the thing, like the idea and this? ⁓ and I went to a ton of shows, but still still didn't pick up on that like massive aspect of painting. And then now it's like I love paint. But I feel like that's such an old because I feel that way too. And and it feels like such an old debate, right? That you know, the formalist kind of approach where it's all ultimately about the material and then folks who are more, I don't know, dedicated to the subject matter. And I think that like struggle feels like a forever thing to me. And I definitely find myself in that thinking a lot where I'm like, I actually care a lot about the subject. you said a lot that's interesting there. ⁓ 'cause I am curious, I noticed that too, that it seems like you've moved toward the abstract. I was saying to Sydney that it reminded me a little bit, I don't know if you ever got into the desert transcendentalists like Agnes Pelton. Yeah, yeah. I definitely know her work. ⁓ like I don't know too much about their life and stuff, but I've like flipped through a book at Isha's mom's house and then I went to I think it was at Lacma a show. Yeah, I got to go with that. Style. Yeah. Yeah. When I I think when I visited her first moved here, it was it was incredible. It was great. I will say that in that show I was like, it's clearly all about Agnes. Like the other work was fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Completely I don't I actually don't really remember who else was that's why I said I like, I don't I'm like, how long ago is I don't quite remember it. Yeah. But actually on that point about subject matter and you know, formal questions and then like how much we think of that like f you know, the formal answers ⁓ as like affecting feeling or affecting, you know, something that's maybe outside of ⁓ intellectualized thought. ⁓ I'm curious, like that point about immediacy you made, like, is that an intentional sort of tapping into the unconscious mind? Is it like impatience for lack of a better word to like get the thing on the canvas? Or how do you kind of identify that? Well, I think it's always been at the root of my work, just in different ways. Like I said, it's hard for me to directly answer something, but I think I can answer it through a light-winded answer. ⁓ so I started painting. 36 when I was like 27, maybe around then. I'd always been around art. ⁓ my mom is from Haiti, Lebanese, but she's from there's like an Arab diaspora. And and my grandmother there was an artist, not like the way the artists are here, you know, it's like showing all this stuff, but she really was like an artist. She had like a kiln, was constantly making things, and then she lived with us for part of the year every year. And so she'd always be ⁓ like just literally making things. all day long, like these crazy metal works. She'd even like all the food she made, I mean that is like a tradition there, but like they would be like braided with flowers in the dough. Like all that's what she was up to. ⁓ so like I was around that all the time. Just like dedication of an artist. ⁓ so I didn't actually know any artist growing up besides her. like Houston Houston's I mean Houston definitely has an art scene but not just anyone that I knew. ⁓ And then and then I was obsessed with art as a kid, which most kids are. It's like the average kid's pretty into it at some point. And then I think it's just kind of evolved and like my went to an academically rigorous school and it just kind of like fell off the wayside, you know. I I didn't really consider it also something to like I was good at to continue. And then my early twenties I got epilepsy in my temporal lobe. So that's the part of the brain that's responsible for I mean, among other things, like memories, feelings, perception. ⁓ they also say that there's like a sense of religiosity, not like obviously it's like you know, like religious doctrines, but like religiosity as like an experience. I mean, if you've ever done like hallucinogen, it feels kind of similar in the brain, like it's there's auras. ⁓ and you'll hear music. You'll hear music and see something. I don't have I don't have them anymore. ⁓ But it's also a lot with it feels almost like the limbic system, but it's not like the flight or fight fear, you know? Like for like two days, I'd be like really, really scared. ⁓ like as if something like scary had happened or or I'd feel great and like super excitable and then I ha it would end up seizure. So I was having like maybe four of them a month. So it's kind of, you know, suddenly I wasn't have suddenly everything was one way and then it became another way. And at the same time I just ⁓ I mean honestly at first they felt really good, which I like sounds insane. It wasn't the first the first time I got one, I ⁓ like at the gym, which I never go to the gym, but and it like fell on the f I like fell I like felt nauseous on the treadmill, then I ran into the ⁓ locker room and I was like I thought I was gonna throw up pregnant or something and then I just like I woke up but I usually didn't this was the only time I ever like woke up on the floor. They actually were quite as far as seizures go. somewhat safe. but anyways my friend called me and I was like, I know like all the answers and I know I understand everything. Like nothing matters. Are you okay? And I wrote this crazy note on my phone and then I went home and I told my mom and she was like, What the fuck is wrong? She was like going to the hospital. But she was like what? And I like and I was like really like kind of like what like it was crazy, like it's kind of like a lucid dream or something. amazing experience and it was like people describe it as like an ego death with drugs, I think. so anyway, when you know I went on medications and they actually got like more unpleasant. I was kind of you know, at the time my dad's a doctor, so he was like, you're going out meds. And was like, maybe I'm not meant supposed maybe I'm not meant to be on these meds. You know, like if you think about it like Yeah long time ago people alleged now your eyes that some of the mystics had these ⁓ because it is like a it's like a very intense religiosity. That's like where that maybe that's what you see in my work. I don't know. ⁓ since you don't have them anymore, like do you have memories of like like what would would you see visuals or like what would be going on in your brain or in your eye like I don't know like what would be going on, like where your eyes I mean when you're having a seizure, like your body is shutting down in a way and you're Yeah, I don't even know where where my question is rooted. It is shutting down, but it's also activating other areas. Right. You know, so like certain things like I can't continue a conversation, but it's not really shutting down. It's like certain things are being extremely stimulated. Mm-hmm. Like neurons are firing off and certain things are like I think that's like certain areas of the brain were being worked much more than they usually are or rarely are. Right. So I mean I can I I can remember it. Like I a lot of times I'd see bubbles and like hear music and then I'd see like a person or I'd see a thing. So anyway, so I got those and I couldn't stop sketching. Like I'd make like ten drawings a day and it was like things I just felt like the even though I went on medication, I was very charged. Like it was kind of it kind of stopped, honestly. And then at the same time I feel like I had so almost like you know, like you know, if you go somewhere and you have social anxiety, let's say, or something really good happens, it was like that, but like ripped open. So everything was so intense. Like it was very, very, very intensified. And I think of maybe always had that a little bit. ⁓ at least according to my parents, they had a book about like the sensitive child and you know, like things like that. ⁓ That sounds like I was gonna say that's that's our whole family. Yeah, yeah, they're always and I'm like, okay. but anyways, and so it was like everything was so ⁓ magnified. that it just like fluidly like things came out drawing. It was almost like too much to keep inside that like drawings just kind of streamed out. Like there wasn't much. It was extremely automatic. ⁓ so it would be like and even now if I exercise I get like all these crazy ideas for an animation. I've never even made an animation. But so I don't know if it's like certain things were happening that made that made that happen. So I'd make like all these drawings, like a snail crying or like all these just random things that would pour out. ⁓ And then I was like really into art, really didn't like my marketing job. Like I never had like an urge to ever move up, which I realized I looked around, I like, ⁓ other people actually want to move up in these careers. I just couldn't care less. Like and so like this big I moved to New York. I took a class in New York and lived as my sister, and then I moved there and it was like this big secret. Like I just as if I would randomly want to move to New York and like paint all the time. Like came out as an artist and like no one really cared, but it like this huge deal in my head. ⁓ I was like, I want to be an artist. I was like crying. My sister was like, okay. ⁓ w when were you in New York? Just so we can 2017, three years, two thousand maybe two thousand sixteen or two thousand seventeen, towards the end of summer in two thousand nineteen. And then I moved to Chicago and went to grad school. So we're different Yeah, yeah, it was it was kind of a great transition. It was kind of fun to have that art role before grad school. I I also went back so I was in New York for basically right until ⁓ you left, ⁓ but also went to SAIC. And so I I have a feeling we probably know some of the same folks, but did you what was the program that you did at SASC? I did ⁓ painting and drawing. Right on. I did the Low Res programme is why I ask. ⁓ nice, yeah. Yeah, which was a lot of fun. And I feel like I I know that I saw you showed at Julius Caesar and Yeah, yeah. I believe that Dana De Giulio, who was one of the mentors that I had who I just really loved, is one of the people who started that. She rules. Yeah, we've already gotten to know her. ⁓ I think she used to be involved in it, but I don't think as far as I know that she is anymore. But she was maybe one of the founding people or something. I wanna say she and I don't we won't put this on camera if I'm wrong, but I wanna say that she and Molly ⁓ is it Zuckerman Hartong? I think they started it. Yeah. ⁓ both, yeah, badasses. Anyways. ⁓ I really wanted to ask you, and I hope this isn't too corny of a question, but you're making me think about like notions of the muse, right? Like that idea of however we think of that following a muse. And it feels sort of like that's what you're approaching in some of what you're saying, where it's like this kind of have you ever heard of like the Shakers, ⁓ that religious group? It's this group of people and they can they won't procreate. That's part of that's probably why you've never heard of them, because there's probably like seven of them left. And you can only join. ⁓ but they're called the shakers because they spin in circles and shake around to create this kind of euphoric state that sounds similar to what you're describing. ⁓ and it's their way of like getting closer to God, right? And it it feels like, yeah, you're you're talking about something similar with that idea of religiosity or spirituality and you know, shamans and thinking about this connection to whatever that. other is. So yeah, I don't know. What do you do you have kind of a defined idea of what that is, or is it all just kind of materialist and, you know, the brain does what it does kind of thing? I think I s and you can tell me from my answer in the question, by the way. I swear I was gonna eventually get to your answer. Well it'll happen throughout the podcast, I swear. I I really want to tell you, sorry to interrupt you again, but I have a friend who nicknamed me Short Story Long. ⁓ Because so if you couldn't tell by the question I just asked. So don't worry about it. My mom likes a little story and she's always like so long story short, and I'm like, why do we have to do this every time? I I know when that when that's sad, I'm like, ⁓ no. ⁓ here we go, yeah. But I mean if someone else like class classified as a music and see that, but for me not really, because it's not something I'm like I guess if I were to think of a muse, I think that you were like looking at something outside of yourself. Maybe. Like you have a if this is you and you have a muse. and it more just feels like it's something that kind of naturally flows out from within. ⁓ so I feel like a lot of my practice is like an attempt. I mean, maybe not even an attempt. Sometimes you have like that internal war with yourself and like that internal struggle, but just being open to what's going to come out. I feel like that takes a lot of trust, you know? And in some ways, I feel like by the end the painting's always nap, but there can be like a fight, like a struggle to just like open that channel, you know, or you open it and you're like, it looks so good. So I don't want to mess it up. But you're like, but so I feel like a lot of my work is just really following like the body as much as I possibly can. ⁓ and it used to start off like at first I was what I my portfolio to get into grad school was just my drawings and they're mostly of like seizures. Like there was one a figure floating above a bed. I don't think they're on this Instagram. My old Instagram, whatever, but a figure floating above the bed and like a bunch of people sort of ⁓ what I would interpret like a bunch of men at a table each having seizure in their own world. So it was really literal. And it was from drawings I made. And the painting was just almost like a paint by numbers. Like I'd be like how many hours left do I have? Like looking at the drawing and filling it in kind of thing. ⁓ And then in grad school, everyone was like, How you paint? How you paint? And I was very annoyed by that. But then it actually, I guess it worked or something. I mean, I think also if you're in the studio so much, you're naturally like, what happens when I do this? You know? ⁓ rather than just having like a finite time trying to illustrate a picture. ⁓ so then I started painting with app drawings. So it became much more of a combination. And then I started starting eventually, like, right when I think of something, I think like bird and I'd try to paint a bird really fast. Or I'd have some photographic references and I'd be like, that feels good. And I'd and then if I'd see bird, I might be like, ⁓ well now I thought of worm. And then I randomly thought of a pot. So it's a bird cooking a worm. You know, something like that. ⁓ I pick that up. But, you know, these things I really listened to like every word that came in. And then a lot of the times I would end up ⁓ like I, you know, you get when you're you start to think like, ⁓ I hope this works out well. in your painting, you know, like it's like you're excited and then you make the thing and you're like, that looks good, so I'm gonna paint around that thing. Does that happen to you guys kind of? Yeah. But I wanna save it and things start getting really like over like I can't remember what brain globe of the brain, but the logical brain kinda takes over. ⁓ that's the when the kill your darlings thing comes in, right? Where I feel like yeah. That's always or most often the thing you have to destroy to get to the good stuff. That's like the next thing I was gonna say is then sometimes you know I smear a face or destroy it and I'd be like, ⁓ I like that how that actually looks now. I thought I was just destroyed. ⁓ I feel like I feel like a really intense, like letting go. So I was also like, I mean it sounds a bit dramatic, but you I'm like, I really want to make this so good. And you're like holding on to like wanting to feel good and wanting to be good, and then I destroy it. Like, ⁓ thank God. Like I feel like a deep deep replenishing and letting go, and then I like it more. ⁓ it was really it's like bodily. So I think what's happened is is then like that destroying started to kind of take over my practice. Like that would be the part that I'd feel best at. So I kind of started to follow that more. ⁓ and then and that would usually with my hands, like you know, with gloves or a palette knife or something like that. ⁓ and then now it's gotten to the point where I'm painting only with my hands. ⁓ so Is that part of where the move toward abstraction has come from? Yeah, I think I think that's what happened actually. 'Cause I've actually tried to make figures like, you know, you I go through this whole dramatic thing and I'm like, Am I just doing abstraction 'cause abstraction's in? And then I'll try to make a figure and then I'm like, okay, I just that doesn't feel right. You know, like it's like you make things so dramatic in your head about like I feel like art becomes such like a ego thing. I don't even mean an you know, like it is an act where you are like looking in the mirror all the time. I think You know, you said something about the incentives. I can't quite remember how you phrased it, but something about the why of where ⁓ it was the Instagram thing, the gripes, you know, that there's all of this outside influence, all of this expectation and flattening that happens with the work. And I I think part of what's so difficult about that is people take it for granted and think that that's the way it is done. Right. So I think you're actually talking about a much more sort of ancient and classic. way of approaching art, right? Where it is the mirror, but it's also like communing. That's why I was curious about like, you know, so it's somatic and embodied, but it sounds like it's also I don't know what the right word is for that thing, but like it is also this more woo-woo category. Yeah. I wanted to ask you, is there ever a point where you're like painting and in the search? Cause it's it sounds like you're searching I mean, things are coming to your mind, you're painting them, but it also sounds like you're searching. Or am I wrong? And if you are searching, do you like what happens if you aren't finding the thing that you don't know what it is? Like literally what's been happening like ever since, like honestly, the app at first I felt like the abstraction was easier and I was like, this is great. And then now I'm like, ⁓ my God, the soul searching is intense. ⁓ But it's almost like become I've tried to write a little more about it. It's funny and have an artist educational platform, whatever you want to call it. ⁓ it's a group and we're critiquing our work and doing other things. And right now it's a professional practice class and ⁓ we're working on our artist statements, and I feel like I had a good artist statement, and now it's completely different. I'm like, I should I need to hone this. I've been doing the things that we're gonna do in class, it's hard, but yeah, the searching. So yes, it is I feel like I was reading something the other day and it talked about like being in the woods and I it almost feels like I'm being 'cause there's so much of the unknown. Like I'm constantly with the unknown. And it's kind of painful. 'Cause I'm like worrying. I'm like, is this gonna be good? Is this gonna be 'cause have no idea what it is. So it's like extreme trust. And I think also there's time restraints in art. It's like I could mush around this painting forever. It feels like it's like day after day. It's not ending 'cause and there's a lot of destroying it too, but then there's like an uncovering. I paint really subtractively. So I use you know, s essentially like mineral spirits to remove paint, but it's a lot of layering and then I remove it. When I remove it, I'm like, ⁓ I like how that looks. But then I might have to destroy it later, kinda like the the killing your darling thing. ⁓ but it definitely's a lot of also trust that I'll just finish in time. So I feel like it's been like an exercise in like confident building and like trusting the unknown. ⁓ but you know so I was reading something and it was about like being in the woods and ⁓ I guess I if I think about it's like if I dropped off in the woods and I have no idea where I'm going. And I have to like find the way out. And I could either like wander around and like look at all like the beautiful things. And like really like breathe and be in the forest. Or I could like panic and try to find the way out. Right. So it's like I have to like trust, but it's definitely like on an inner level more like, ⁓ my God. But it's also in some ways like really satisfying too. Cause it's It is like an exercise, like I said, like an exercise and instinct and like really trusting. It's like I'm gonna go in and like do my job. And my job is like be in front of this painting and paint. It's not to like think about like who's better than me or who I'm better than and like what I want at the end of this. It's really like eliminating like the goal part. ⁓ and like trusting that like if I'm trying my best and working hard day in, day out of work. ⁓ another thing I brought up in class is Jack Witten. He ⁓ Jack Whitney I mean I know you guys probably know who he is, but he's an Amst direct artist and he ended up you I just saw his retrospective in New York, I think it like MOMA. And he did like a ton of experimentation and like had like a mental breakdown at one point, was hospitalized and all this stuff. But ⁓ he talks about how you have to like mentally and physically fit. And for him, he also he'd have all these different notes like as an artist. And I kind of agree with that. I mean, physically it could just be like, I don't mean like at the gym, but like like calming for me it's like calming myself and like taking care of myself and be like, I'm really trying to be more compassionate and like really find that place of like calm and centering ⁓ in myself and then like have that onto the canvas, not for how it's gonna look, but just on like, do I want to do this every day and like feel like shit? Or or do I want to like sink in and like enjoy this and like not focus so much on how well I'm doing. ⁓ so that's kind of and then he also talks about like locate for him, he's like painting is locating myself in space. And I almost feel like now my painting is like a recording of just like I wouldn't say performance, but someone else told me that. And like she's a performance artist, but yeah, like I'm doing this every and like it's just gonna look how it looks at the end of the day. Right. And then again and look how it looks at the end of that day. And like hopefully at some point it's gonna feel done. Right. I just talked had a like Zoom call with my old s professor from grad school and something he said, which I really loved, is he was like, Painting is a question, not an articulate question, but it's a question. And I don't know, like sometimes people just say things or I don't know, I that th they just say things and I'm like, Wow, I love how you worded that, you know, like that just made so much sense to me. ⁓ but anyway that Not really a question, just my thought. Well, no, no, I li I I ⁓ love that quote. I wonder about the sort of embodied somatic thing that you're talking about and that question of like whether or not it's the recording of a of a performance. or maybe that's not a question. ⁓ the thing, the reality of it being a recording of a performance. Like, how do you think about that as far as the viewer? ⁓ meaning That that's the next sort of physical relationship to it, right? Is that you've got another human being or human beings who are experiencing the work, or do you just not is that not something you really sweat? Yeah, obviously it goes in and out of my head. You know how it's gonna be received. And that's kind of where you know, like feeling good enough comes from, like those feelings of like being enough, feeling enough, you know. Obviously that's because there's someone else at the other end that I feel like is judging that. ⁓ but I try to just you know, since this is really work that's like coming out of the core, as best I c as best I can not think of it while I'm painting. Well, may I might have phrased it in a weird way, you know, and we don't necessarily need to dwell on it, but just I don't necessarily mean like The reception of it. I just mean the I kind of mean the physicality and the experience of it, if that distinction makes sense. So not like do people like it or is this saleable or something, but more along the lines of like, are they feeling something in their bodies? Like, is that something that you worry about at all, or it's kind of not your problem at that point? Not not really, no. I don't think it would be that too much. Not at least not that specifically. Like I want people to connect with it. Uh-huh. No, but I mean I I I really do believe that if you really connect with your own work like s not everybody, it doesn't even have to use the majority, like there are just gonna be people that connect with it. Like we're not that different than each other. Like we are, but we aren't. ⁓ I'm realizing that because we're already approaching one, we probably should get c to category two. Yes, yes. So good stuff, okay, yeah. ⁓ good stuff is what feels exciting a lot. Or worth paying attention to right now. I mean, I I had a tr I had a hard time with right now. I guess focusing too much on contemporary because at first I was like, I can't think of anything. I feel like there's always kind of like, you know, there's always good stuff to be excited about. ⁓ you know, like connections you make with other artists and like really good conversations you have. I can think of that definitely, you know, these timeless things that like make us feel more. alive as people and like things that have this vitality in them. ⁓ I mean artists that I think are worth paying attention to and you know totally person to person, but I guess two people that I sent you guys their names. ⁓ Ali Cherry, Lebanese artist, and then ⁓ Ali Ayal, an Iraqi artist, ⁓ I think just like it's really hard to make the work they're making. Like it's not like difficult subject matter and not just political violence where it's like I'm it was you know, or not even like ancestral. It's like literally their actual life. Like all yeah y'all, he was in the hammer. I think he's gonna have a solo museum show. He's also really nice. He's like so nice. I met him like very briefly. ⁓ I actually DMed him to say like I really love your work and I accidentally sent this like dancing emoji. But he like It was crazy. And I already sent an idea one of like that was an accent. He just didn't question it. It like, Thank you, like yours too. And I was like, Okay. ⁓ but he's just like he's incredible. you know, during the Iraq war, his father vanished. They went and took him from his house. and he had like he was nine and he like lost his childhood. So he makes all these paintings from memory and they're just like so like that's an example of, you know, you're saying, like, how does the audience feel like? They feel like so poignant but also tender. Cause I think, you know, it's from the eyes of a child. Like I hope I'm not what I'm saying, I hope is roughly that was I think correct, but what I remember, he had a painting of a Ferris wheel and his mom took him, maybe siblings, I'm not sure, to go to the Ferris wheel and they're like, I want you to remember this 'cause it like one of the last times she knew 'cause you know, she was an adult and she knew what was happening, that they were gonna have like this kind of pure childhood memory. And they're kind of painted and like there's a little bit of like fill dust and influence, at least that I'm detecting. ⁓ me because of my own references. But they're sort of illustr illustrative somewhat, ⁓ but then also paintedly beautiful. And they're like really tender and poignant. And I'm like, it takes a lot to make that work. Right. ⁓ I'm sure it's work he also just has to make. ⁓ but you know, it's like I'm over here at the canvas and I'm like, ⁓ it feels good. And I'm like, you know, like I have sadness for things that I'm sure gets into the painting, but like, you it's hard work to make and I think it's so irrelevant right now with what's happening. It's like once again, US intervention, like the tale as old as time, which a lot of times in the art world is being very pushed on and repressed. So I'm happy that his is not at all. He's actually receiving a lot of critical acclaim and people are really loving his work. And then the other artist, ⁓ Oli Cherry. His work's just like incredible. I like love it. ⁓ I love sculpture. ⁓ I especially I love looking at things and like how did they do that? And he's made these like massive soldiers out of mud. ⁓ he's also a filmmaker. I haven't seen any I haven't seen any of his film or video work. and then he sources these artifacts, like masks and different things. I think maybe they're after like stolen artifacts. I'm not I'm not totally sure about that part, but he's a Lebanese artist. I think he's based in Paris now. He was born in Beirut. ⁓ so he's been making this work for years. And then last year his parents were killed by an airstrike. ⁓ wow. So it's like it's like a current lived reality. I know this is I'm I'm taking like a depressing turn, but ⁓ I just feel like they're worth paying attention to, especially with how much censorship there is in the art world. ⁓ and I will say there has always been censorship in the art world and across industries. Yeah. ⁓ but you know, he's showing at Almin Rash, Ali Cherry's having like also doing really well. So it's also nice to see that these people are having these shows and with this intense emotive work. And both of their work's also really beautiful. Yeah, I mean I wanna say that I actually really appreciate that for that good stuff category, you're talking about artists who are working and thinking about their real life conditions and the conditions of the world. Cause I think there can be this tendency. And it you know, in a way, I would say that's part of the project of what we're doing is to not just like stay in the fluffy. Cause I think there's a lot of incentive in the art world to keep it surface, right? Yeah. Yeah. So that's just to say like I I I think that's actually fantastic. Yes, I agree with Ryan, but also just to say that I can also see that like their like visual influences for you too because Ali Cherry, their sculptures remind me of your little wooden sculptures, like the the heads. And then also Ali Ayal. I think like the visuals, like things sort of like seeping into each other and like, you know, images like colliding, I see that in your work too. So I just wanted to point that out that I see that they're inspiring to you. But yes, let's go on to Ghosts. So ghosts is ⁓ I mean we we sort of touched on this with those artists, but influences, histories, and lingering presences shaping your current work. They could also be like art historical or just like all time favorite artists that you really love. I mean I guess like a person I've always loved since I started painting, ⁓ Ferdinand Hodler. I think I'm saying his last name correctly. How did you come to ⁓ know his work? I don't know. I actually don't know because he's one of the first and I don't feel like when I started making art I was really even like well versed in art history at all. But for s I I'm assuming maybe I was at the Mat and Saw painting and loved it and then look him up and bought book. ⁓ he has one and it's like a bunch of small figures and then I think you'd have to look it up. I think a tall figure. It doesn't tell us much, but they're just like incredible. I'm obsessed with them. ⁓ There, he had like a crazy life at one point. I think he had 13 siblings. Like both of his parents passed away from I can't remember what siblings pass like, but then there's so much joy in them. Like he has a lot that are like really sad. Like the theme of death is really present and mortality, but then the theme of life is so intense too. It's like these vast, beautiful landscapes. ⁓ so I don't know, they're just like the way he does his portrait's incredible, his landscapes are incredible. ⁓ He also at the time invented this term called parallelism. And it was about the unity of nature. And I feel like that's always been pretty prevalent in my work. ⁓ so I feel like like a connection to that. Even I mean, I feel like I've always had like an inherent sense of symmetry. The thing I was thinking to ask you though is about that landscape quality. Because I think that, you know, even or perhaps especially in the more recent work, it seems really tied to landscape. I'm thinking about how like Joan Mitchell, you know, would actually talk about her abstraction as landscape. And I'm curious like you know, are you thinking about forms in that way when you're making the work that's all, you know, painted with your hands and and are you thinking about it as fields and valleys and all of that kind of thing? Yeah, I think a lot of times it just forms into that. I will say ever since I started painting, especially my very first paintings, I've always had a tendency to do like a horizon line. You know, it's like a horizon line and actually a landscape comes into place. And now they've kind of been going like even more above. I'm like, ⁓ no, how do I handle that? But ⁓ I think definitely a lot of also just like when I make in these kind of like organic forms, kind of like mandalas, you know, like five. Petals kind of start to form and it starts to look like this and then that with so you know, sometimes I'll tell people it's sort of like an interior landscape, like an interior interiority. ⁓ and I like love nature. I feel like I've had this sort of since I moved to LA. I do feel like I can see like the divine in nature almost the most, especially when I'm thinking of things happening in the world. I'm like, ⁓ there's nature, which things happen in nature. Nature's not all like, you know, sweet or anything. But I feel like this like I can breathe deeply when I'm like and I feel like it kind of does come into the work. And I'll start to even see plants in LA, like this strange point to it. I'm like, ⁓ I think they're painted that. ⁓ so I think maybe this like looking and like looking really closely and like appreciating it, like I don't know, I feel like it's one of the things that like really like deeply calms me. Yeah, there there feels like sort of a connection and what you were just saying about nature and that kind of duality, right? The beauty and the like bleak horror feels connected to some of the other things that you've talked about, you know, whether that's Yeah, but I don't even really think of nature in the bleak horror way. I actually kind of only think of the positives about it. Like like I guess when I'm thinking it's most of me I can like very deep like appreciate and ⁓ connect with. Yeah. I like how you said inner landscape because I was telling Ryan that also some of your works, especially the more abstract ones, feel kind of cellular to me. But like cellular landscape. Or there's like these these or I mean, I feel like I'm looking at a ⁓ microscope, but it's magical microscope of the land, if that makes sense. Huge compliment. ⁓ cool. The word magics lately I've been more interested in things that like feel really magical. And I think that's what I feel when I'm looking at nature. I'm like, how did this just exist? Like with all the things that we make, we cannot make something this amazing. Right. And I actually love like I so much I mean, I'm literally telling you I love landscapes of paintings, but it still can't give me the feeling of like when I look at this be a different feeling that I like absolutely love. It's usually a take on nature, not like a hyper realist, you know. And I think there's like just something really magical about nature. And it's like just so I don't know, it's just like in incre especially in LA, like the foliage is just crazy. Like I moved to and I was like, ⁓ my god, I didn't know I was gonna have this like tropical with desert. It made me remember that you'd mentioned Charles Birchfield, who I feel like when we think about magic and we think about nature, like yeah, he's very directly approaching that. And I just I don't know, go off about Charles Birchfield if you want to. Charles Birdfield. I actually only found out his maybe a year ago. And I'm just like so obsessed with him. ⁓ and then I found out recently I was reading more about him. ⁓ I guess I'll mention two things. ⁓ so a lot of those little I feel like my work's also extremely rooted in emotion, like emotion in the body. ⁓ so a lot of those little symbols that he was making. ⁓ and I've kind of myself been like, I kind of want to make like my own language. And I was like, I tried it and I was like, it's contrived and you know, like all those things, but not my own language makes like I've kind of begun to have more of a vigil language. ⁓ like certain things just feel the same. And it's sort of when I'm feeling a certain way. ⁓ but anyways, and I was looking at Charles Birchfield and those were like symbols for emotions. So he had, and not just emotions, but he had one about I hope you pronounce it right, like imbecility, like foolishness. Like there was a certain emotion he had for foolishness or a certain symbol. And it was like all this whole secret language, and then some for like desire and It's like all those things that were so magical were like his own things that he formed in relation to an emotion emotional language. ⁓ and I found that and I like, ⁓ my god, I love you even more. I mean, I think he was like really popular in what, like the nineteen forties or nineteen twenties or something, but I think he was late eighteen hundreds to like mid nineteen hundreds. But ⁓ Yeah, he's kinda like the w the wacky regionalist or something. Like ⁓ yeah. Yeah. ⁓ so he made His original drawings are think a little bit more just literal drawings or gouaches and watercolors. ⁓ so he'd make like, you know, one it would be like of like a few trees or something. And then he went back like decades later and he started adding to them. And that's how they became these vast magical things they were from. And he connects the papers. Like I have a book and it shows like number one that he made. Then he attached number two, then he attached number three. So he was working on like separate pieces that he'd put together that were like decades old. That he transformed into this more surreal magical landscape. Speaking of time, it's like when when have you ever returned to something? Do you ever do that? Because I'm like that. You do, okay. Cause that to me sounds like such a different era. But so you'll go back to older work and kind of re revise it. Yeah. I mean, I've shown things. ⁓ and then I get them back and I'm like, I didn't like that that much. Like, so I'll just go back to it. completely change it and I'll just say it again. I'm like, especially as painters, I don't know if you guys feel this way, but I feel like there's this expectation of like new work, new work, new work. Yeah. ⁓ definitely, yeah, I go into old stuff a lot. Especially I've been using linen. I'm like, I'm not wasting this. Yeah. Right. And now that I And now that I do a lot of lingering, ⁓ it's kind of helpful because I'm like, ⁓ I have all these layers. Like I don't even remember what was under here and I can like unveil it and that's kind of exciting. So yeah, sometimes I'm like I'm just done, can't do this anymore. Done like five paintings on top of this and don't like it. So I'll just give it up. But for the most part, I'm definitely going into old work. That might actually be a good segue into the guts category, which ⁓ is meant to be about process and just, you know, you've already sort of touched on a few things, but using linen, ⁓ but also revisiting work. what's the actual prompt? Let me read it. It just process risk and what it actually takes to make the work. ⁓ so you can handle that whatever you want. I mean, I feel like I've intermittently answered it just in terms of saying the Jack Witten thing. Like I feel like more now I'm trying to concentrate too on the what I'm doing outside of the studio as well as inside of the studio. ⁓ and really try to honestly relax a little bit more. When I say relax, I mean like recenter, reground, like look at Instagram less. ⁓ What am I reading? What am I like before the studio, we're gonna do this in class sitting ritual? You know, like am I gonna like excite myself and like I don't know, we have mini trampolines. Like, am I gonna like jump on it a lot or am I gonna meditate or am I not like write a little note to myself? So I feel like I'm trying to be more intentional with my time. Cause time just time just goes by so fast. But yeah, in terms of process, I mean kind of what we've been talking about with you know, like using my hands. I mean, I think risk is just literal risk of like what I'm doing in the painting. And it feels like risk has almost like taken over my work a bit. But I wonder if that's also gonna change because I have a new way of working. My way my way of working evolves a lot. ⁓ I don't know if I'll land on a way of working that then will last like decades, but I think just really going into the unknown and being comfortable with that, like it's it's a personal risk. ⁓ So I'm trying to make that feel like less of a risk every day. Cause right now it does feel like a risk for the most part. Where at the end of the day, I'm like, I'm disappointed. I didn't finish it. And I'm like, okay, I'm trying to do it. This is not that big of a risk. It's just not that big of a risk. It's just a point. Like, yes, it's a it's my profession and it matters to me. But at the same time, like you're just gonna go in and do your job and then you're gonna leave. And you're gonna go in again. And then ⁓ So I'm kinda trying to make this whole thing a little bit like less of a massive risk by just embracing the risk and making it not a risk. Which I know is very meta. Well, I'm thinking it it takes a lot of courage to do that. Cause yeah, I mean to me, I'm like, I don't want to throw you off of that mission to feel more comfortable with the risk by saying anything. But like ⁓ I will say that what you're describing, that process feels like all risk. ⁓ and that that is a really yeah difficult and brave way to work. And I to me it's like maybe going into that risk really deeply brings up new risks, right? So it's like I suspect as soon as you're like, I'm good now, I'm at work, I'm doing my thing, some other thing will Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. ⁓ I wanted to ask you since Ish came in Do y'all go to the studio together or is it like, okay, I need space, don't talk to me? Like what's the vibe? Yeah when y'all ⁓ we get Okay. So y'all are in there together making the work. Okay. We're in there together. Well sometimes we'll be doing different things. Thank God we actually at the old studio now. Because he was working at home a lot because he just couldn't stand it anymore. He's been working on a lot of really small paintings. So it's easier for him just do it at the table. ⁓ and I'm glad that's over because he's also like taking care of our house, taking over our house. And I was like, But ⁓ so with the new studio, I we have like a couch, it's much more comfortable. So I feel like he's like hanging out and we're used to doing everything each other with each other, so it's pretty natural. Okay, so growth. What do you envision, you know, as far as the work goes or really anything else that you wanna talk about? I mean, ⁓ one of the growth things is like being comfortable with more risk, like I mentioned, just being Just like wanted to enjoy myself more. ⁓ like while, you know, and in some ways I think that can actually make me work harder, you know. ⁓ and I'm also wanting to focus on focusing, like improving my focus while I'm working. ⁓ and then the other day, my friend who also did met her through Ouroboros, ⁓ Zizi Krebs, she's a sculptor. She taught me how to do stone carving. ⁓ yes. And so I really have gotten like obsessed. Like I had a dream of just me like carving a stone in my dream. after after the lesson, it wasn't like a foretelling dream or anything. But ⁓ so I'm really excited about that. I like I love learning new things. I think it also makes me take a break from painting. And when like you're learning, you can't overthink things as much, you know? Like you can't make something amazing if you're literally learning how to use the tools. ⁓ so I'm pretty excited for that. And I I liked making you and show my wood. My wood sculptures. I liked doing those, but I also felt like there was something not quite right with the medium for me. Because it's hard to hard to describe. But I've always kind of been interested in sculpture. So we'll see how this goes. But so far it's been like very, very fun. It's fun, like her tools were like ancient, like they're like I think like two hundred years old or something. And I was like, it's just fun. ⁓ and she showed me this amazing artist named I think it's Gonzalo Foncescu. He's amazing. ⁓ and her mom dated him, which is cool. and he's a stone carver. That that's the incredible. And if you haven't seen them too, Louise Bourgeois has amazing stone carvings. Like they're so good. ⁓ she was having a lot of assistance, but still. So I guess growth, like learning a new medium, continuing making work. I do feel like these abstract works may I don't know if still get figured out. I don't know. I feel like there's things that almost happen, they don't happen. I'm sure that happens in your work too. Like you sort of see something forming. So I guess what I d I don't know. Kind of gr you know, going into the unknown. Yeah, I'm thinking for what this is worth about the solidity of those, you know, natural, like whether it's a stone or a block of wood and trying to shape that by pulling away. Like that sort of subtractive versus additive process, right? Of the painting. just thinking about how the the wood sculpture is more recent? No, I haven't even made one in maybe two years. Okay. Well, I was gonna say it feels connected to that older work just because it is more figurative. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. So with the stone carving you're envisioning, do you picture that as more figurative and kind of of you know the recognizable world or do you think it might go abstract? I don't know. I mean at first I was like I really want to make a face but I don't know if I was also like wanting to make a face because I thought a face would be more like kind of I s you know, you sort of stop and you see a face like a thing. I feel like I'll probably try a face and if it doesn't work. Yeah I mean It's hard to be intuitive with stone carving, but already I was just just doing it intuitively and I was like, I probably should make a drawing. At least at least like you know, like I should probably try and make a drawing. ⁓ so I don't I hate no, I I don't know. I don't know. Have you ever seen that clip of Louise Bourgeois smashing the sculptures that she doesn't like? ⁓ my god, yeah, and she's like such a big baby and she pushes them over the edge. Up her table and just breaks it, and I'm like, she's she is so unhinged. I love her, but I'm ⁓ my god. That could be a good process, maybe, if you're trying to creation through destruction and all that. You had an assistant cleaning that up, you know? For sure. Like come clean it up. Do we want to do the ⁓ hard plug? I feel like something we can ⁓ yes, you know, like clip out. Yeah. Hard plug for orbores, right? Yes. And also like your Instagram. Yes. I think if they go well, I'll show the sculptures at ⁓ Untitled in Houston. Are you gonna go, Sydney? Maybe. When is that happening? I feel like I should know. ⁓ no, you don't need to know. ⁓ beginning of October. First week of October. Okay. I honestly I would love to visit if you're gonna be there. Yeah, yeah, we'll be there. If I finish the School first. I was just like, I think they wanted me to glue the wood and was like, I just don't want to do that. Just don't want to. ⁓ like I'm not that into it anymore. And you know, I feel like I was getting excited to do this, so I'm like, hopefully I can make some that I will show. So that's what's upcoming next in terms of ⁓ showing work. And then to plug Ouroboros, ⁓ Ouroboros has been great. I mean We've honestly like we've loved it. I feel like it's been like amazing for my own practice. ⁓ we're on our eighth class and our first time doing professional development. That's how I know Sydney. ⁓ I've made tons of friends. We are visiting Isha's grandmother who's 98 in England, and we met up with someone who did Ouroboros. ⁓ she's from Bahrain and she's in London, and we had a dinner, and I was like, I forgot that I hadn't met you in the flesh before this because it was so fun. ⁓ but yeah, it's been great. We have like up to 10 artists in each cohort. ⁓ we're critiquing work, but I feel like it involves into more personal conversations too. ⁓ and then in our traditional class, it's each artist receives two critiques, the gallery comes and visits, and we do optional exercises. ⁓ I think probably my favorite thing. I think in this current group, everyone is First and foremost, an artist. ⁓ obviously, you know, some people are doing other jobs, but I think in the past we've had a social worker from a girl that I knew in high school. And I wasn't, I just kind of reached out and I was like, I like your watercolors, they're really cool. Would you want to do it? And she's sorry, she's not a social worker. We've had a social worker, but she's a public defender. And it's like, I always kind of secretly want to go to art school and I know I'm not a real artist. And then we had people that were like, of course, yeah, it becomes like a really supportive environment. And like a lot of like the ego's left out. And someone could be really nervous about for the first time ever showing their work or even showing their work to their friend, to someone who has like a friend of mine who did it had a solo booth at art baselast year, nor Sydney. ⁓ yeah. And she's self-conscious about something in her practice or she has these sculptures that she's making. And it's it's interesting because like that person's willing to take as much advice from someone who doesn't show. As and and vice versa. So it's I feel like it's just made like a nice dynamic. We've been lucky and knocking on wood, but everyone's been really nice and supportive in the class. ⁓ which is interesting. Cause now I'm at the point where I know two people in the current class, but I only know them through a previous class in Ouroboros. You know, at first it was like a mix of like people I know and some friends. ⁓ and now it's evolved into no one I know, and it's still felt like we're becoming friends. Yeah. ⁓ Which I was also nervous about because at first after the first few classes, I was like, We have to have like a brick and mortar or else this isn't a real thing. And that's so expensive that I actually feel like we would have to like jack up the price. ⁓ and I think right now, when I've looked at other online schools, it's like a third of the price. which is something I would want to hold on to as much as I can. I mean, at some point and we'll see, you know, we'll just see what happens, but I think it's allowed for a lot of like serious artists to join who are also, you know, it's just it's just a price point that I think has brought in like people that have gotten something out of it and haven't been like breaking their bank account for it. No, yeah. I I agree. I feel like Oros Boros is really affordable. And I mean, this is the second time I'm doing it. And I'm doing it because I feel like y'all y'all being ish and you, ⁓ I feel like you can tell that you are really passionate and you care and you like I can feel the effort and energy that you put into like meeting everybody and you're like really curious about meeting other artists. ⁓ but also y'all are artists yourself, so it's just like relatable. And I feel like y'all's critiques, I've gotten feedback that I haven't experienced in other like clubs. So yeah, I just feel like it's really wrong. And ⁓ a great experience to meet so many people. So I just wanted to add that at the end. ⁓ thank you. It's it's great for your feedback. ⁓ I just wanted to ask two things about it. and I know Sydney can tell me at some point more, but I'm curious about the structure of like how the crits go, like how long each person talks, and then also just how you landed on the name. ⁓ so in terms of the critiques, we Can't reveal too much, but no, I'm judging. It's out that I took a sculpture class in grad school and it was like an incredible class. It made me take advanced sculpture. I've never really done sculpture. But anyways, and I feel like the thing that I actually learned more from how I teach in that class than any other class at SCIC. It was an undergrad class. and so I feel like a big part of that we try to focus on is like looking and seeing the work before forming judgments. ⁓ Rather than going straight in 'cause I mean I feel like you should be able to critique a piece of work that you don't like and give a lot of really good feedback. I don't even like good, like positive, but like constructive feedback. It's like ultimately I wanna make I wanna give feedback to Sydney on the type of work she wants to make. ⁓ I think in critique a lot of times, at least in my experience, it didn't go that way because of people's aesthetic judgments were like, Are they prioritizing political work? Are they prioritizing beauty? And it's like I don't you know, it doesn't really matter. It's like what's if we're if I'm really gonna stop and see, I'm probably gonna interpret what Ryan's interested in if I like just look at first. So I think we've tried to make that a part of the critique that then does go into feedback and criticism. but really try to like get in the shoes of the artist. ⁓ and then they're about 30 minutes, depending on the number of the group, between between twenty five and thirty minutes. They usually go over a few minutes what we plan on. ⁓ and the class always runs over like a few minutes, but I think that's fun. That's a good sign. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, in the traditional class, two critiques. This one's a bit different, but also two critiques. And then we have in this class, we'll have a visiting gallerist and a visiting artist. And we try to pick an artist that's, you know, a little bit older and who's kind of been through a few different cycles. Cause I feel like artists have cycles of like no selling, selling, no selling, selling. ⁓ but yeah, so. ⁓ and then how did we land on a name? ⁓ like Ish was the most helpful with names. I feel like Ish has a lot of a lot of knowledge on like I'll still be like, how did you know about that? and I feel like both of his parents are experimental filmmakers. He also remembers things. He remembers things he learned from high school like I don't remember anything I learned during high school. Like truly like I told you I've read I've read so much about Bill Jensen I can't remember his name. so at first we're debating Allesion and we thought that sounded little to Lords of the R Lord of the Rimsy. And And it's also a park like right near a house, which is cool, but it's also so like LA. ⁓ or boros is like an infinite cycle. It's a snake eating its tail. ⁓ and I saw like an old ancient emblem of it that I really loved, but also we're thinking like infinite knowledge. Like you go to school and it's like you you learn all this stuff, and then that's it. And now you're professional and you just need to focus on showing. But really, art is just like I mean, living is just a process. You know, like we're constantly learning, we're constantly I don't even want to use the word failing, but like learning, being dissatisfied, learning more. And I feel like like why we make art ultimately is to create. Yes, showing it's very gratifying. Like the real reason we do it is the actual creation of it. And a lot of these conversations are about that. We do want to we do include the professional components 'cause like that's just the other end of, you know, the spectrum. Sure. ⁓ but we want to also foster as much as we can. We want to balance like fostering your and your internal world. And that's where I think feeling good, like that focus I've been trying to have. Cause like when I'm only focusing so much more on the professional components, I like and I lose that. I feel kind of bad. ⁓ so it's like, how can I really create a balance? How can I really foster this inner dialogue and not even feel like good about like happy work, but feel like I'm being true to myself and like honoring that while also. interacting in ⁓ the professional commercial art world. Right. Yeah. It's the forever battle. So appro appropriate symbol. Yeah. All right. Well thanks again and thanks for taking all the time. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Okay. Bye. Bye. Bye.