Latest / Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond / Sonny Rollins

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Sonny Rollins · Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, Today we're continuing our celebration of Black
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Music Month with one of my all time favorites, jazz legend,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Sonny Rollins. Rollins is dubbed the Saxophone Colossus. He's an
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: American tenor and composer who was widely regarded as one
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: of the most influential jazz musicians ever, with several awards
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: under his belt, a Grammy Award for Lifetime Achievement in
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: the National Medal of Arts to name a few. Some
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: even venture to call him the greatest living improviser. Sadly, now,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: at ninety one years old, Rollins no longer plays as
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: a result of pulmonary fibrosis, but he is able to
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: look back at an eight decade career that took him
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: all the way from the beginnings of bebop to playing
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: with the Rolling Stones and all over the world. On
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: today's episode, I spoke to Sonny Rollins by phone about
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: one of his first big gigs at eighteen way back
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: in nineteen forty nine, playing alongside other jazz icons like
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Bud Powell and Fats Navarro. He also explains why he
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: no longer actively listens to music, and for the first
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: time ever, how Charlie Parker is the reason he kicked drugs.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: This is broken record Liner notes to the digital age.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond. Here's my phone conversation with the great
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Sonny Rollins. I want to talk about early in your career.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: You're eighteen years old in nineteen forty nine. That was
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: your first like professional date, and the first that I
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: can figure was with Bab's Gonzalez on Saint Louis Blues.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: That does that seem true? I know that I began
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: recording in I've laid forties, so I would imagine that
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: it might be true. I turned verifying exactly. Do you
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: remember Babs Gonzalez pretty well? Oh? Sure, he's like a character,
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: you know, as you Yeah, I remember mans very well.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: mAbs uh like to my playing a lot, and I
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: used to make some of these gigs that Drabs Gonzalez
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: had Poulain registers in the car and we go down
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: to Shilly, or we go up to Boston or Praises
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: in the an immediate area, and hey, so I got
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: a chance to play with some of my idols. I
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: got a chance to pray reflection of Varrow. I want
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: to bring that up the same year, when you're still eighteen,
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: you got to play on some pretty incredible un Powell records, well,
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Pouncing with Bud, fifty second Street Theme, Dance of the Infidels.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, just real, real classics. And you're playing on
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: there with Fats, with Fats Navarro, the amazing trump of player.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: It's insane. Yeah, I know it really. I mean, I
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: guess I had too many dogs in my head to
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: we even stop and and realize what I was doing. Yeah, oh,
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: but you know, so this is I credit bab and
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Zealous in doing that, with getting me on a lot
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: of jobs Fats naval I think, I'm sure I can't
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: remember some of me some other the the best players
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: around play with some of these Jews, And I was
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: a young young chat and my having and that opportunity
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: to play with them was tremendous at eighteen playing with
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: people like Bud Powell and Fats Navarro. Were you were
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: you nervous at all? Well, I was too stupid to
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: be nervous that I always fell that if they wanted
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: me there, then I'll just you know that I should
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: be there. I was. I was never really wanted these guys.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: And was your felt intimidated. Yeah, I just fell well,
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: look if they want me to read, then I'm just
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: you know, I guess I'm stored to be here. So
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: it wasn't Buds. So I went on and did what
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: I did. But it was certainly not on the level
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: of J. J. Johnson and all of these people that
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: I was playing with when I was a teenager, right,
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: I mean Roy Haynes, who we thankfully, just like you,
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: we still have around these days. He was on those
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: Bud Power sessions as well. Um, the drummer Roy Haynes.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: Do you ever have the urge to call someone like
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: that these days? And just sort of confirmed that these
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: things actually happened. I called Roy up born his birthdays
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: and I always called him up and we talk about
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: the things that we can both remember. So Roy I know,
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: and I know Roy. We know. We were went to
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: young kids running to play music. And Roy moved up
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: in our neighborhood upon Stigar Hill, the Corvette. We all
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: knew him. And then Roy was playing with Lester Young.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: You must have loved Lester. I mean, I can imagine
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: Lester must have been an inspiration for you. Lester Young
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: was God, you know, and it was so good to
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: get to know lest of Young and to know that
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: Lester Young like to me because we used to be
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  Speaker 1: up in Leicester's apartment at the Alvin Hotel up on Broadway,
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: and guys would be less, say, look like they were
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: if for some guys coming musicians. He would call that
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: and say him, I no, say I'm not at home.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: So you know, a lot of people came to see him,
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: but hitting the ride everybody. And he liked me. He
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: liked me and Matt Roach used to come by there,
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: and uh, I got a Gritter friendship with the Great
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: Press and that gave me a lot of validation that
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: I was doing something right. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm realizing Roy
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: has a birthday coming up in a few days here,
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: so I guess you'll be probably calling him. Huh oh, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I didn't know it's coming up. Yeah, I'll find out
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: about it and I will definitely call him definitely. Yeah, yeah, man,
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  Speaker 1: Roy will be twenty ninety seven. You're ninety one. Now,
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  Speaker 1: how long ago does an experience like that feeling this point, like,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: does it even feel like it was in the same lifetime? Well,
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: yes and no, and uh you know it was no
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: in a life That's a tough, tough question, because lifetime means,
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  Speaker 1: you know, the last week could be a different lifetime
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  Speaker 1: in a way of speaking. Yeah, sure, in a way
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  Speaker 1: it's a different way time, yes, but still it was
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  Speaker 1: a lifetime which I was involved in, so it's not
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: that different. But yes, it was different in so many ways,
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  Speaker 1: different reversions around, different ven years around. You know, it's
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: a lifetime is a difficult word since I believe in reincarnation.
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  Speaker 1: I accept re incarnation. So maybe when you say it
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: was a different lifetime, it ends up too many contradictory
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: things to be able to answer that precisely. No, I
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: see what you mean. I see what you mean. I
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: was watching an interview did the other night in nineteen
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: sixty two on Ralph Gleason's show that I Used to
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: have Jazz Casual. You were the same age during the
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: filming of that that I Am. Now you're thirty two,
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: and you were referring to yourself as old In that taping,
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: you refer to yourself as kind of like an old cat. Now,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: I'm curious what advice you might give yourself at thirty two. Now,
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: you know, I've made so many mistakes in life. I've
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: done some good things in life. You know, I was learning,
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: which I was a learning experience. I think there was
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: born a fairly positive person. Used to call me the
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: gesture or now you're a little boy so in play.
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  Speaker 1: So I think I had a positive personality all through
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: my life. You know, that's what we think, and that's good.
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  Speaker 1: But things happened to us. We get tested in life,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: and it's a long trip, you know. And I've known
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: so many people that didn't make it all the way
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: and ended up in terrible situations. I was talking about
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: my friend, he's a great drummer from Chicago named eight
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: Day that's play with that Day. When I was in
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Chicago in nineteen forty nine, he was strung out on
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: drugs and I was short of strung out on drugs
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  Speaker 1: entertain So that was a different, different world. But it
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: was one of those rivers I had to cross, so
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: that it's hard to look back. You know. I made
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: a lot of mistakes in life. I did some things
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: in life which I like my music. I was already
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: trying to get better. But as I said, I was
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: a guy that wasn't afraid of trying to do something
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: and playing with superior musicians and all of that. No,
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: you definitely tray right. You know, I felt that I
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: should be there. They wanted me to be there. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: we have to learn. We have to try to be
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  Speaker 1: at the golden rule when all that stuff got to
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: try to do it. We don't get it now, we
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: have to try to again. Like that said in the
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: TV commercial, pay me now or pay me later, I'm
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: gonna quote. I'm gonna start quoting that. Yeah, man, you
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  Speaker 1: gotta get it right. You can't do anything and get
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: away with it. You gotta get it right. You don't
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: get it right now, you're gonna get happy day it
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: right later because you're reap to So. See, some of
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  Speaker 1: these things are very important to remember that what life
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  Speaker 1: has survived life is to find out the reason for life?
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  Speaker 1: What does it mean? And that goes on a non
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  Speaker 1: man who knows how many lives we have to live
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: because a brilliant children who knows. I don't know, but
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  Speaker 1: I know that you can't get it generally in one lifetime.
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  Speaker 1: Some people are really advanced that I've read in life.
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  Speaker 1: I say, wow, their journey. They know a lot more
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  Speaker 1: than I do than some people. I'm ahead of some
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  Speaker 1: other people in their journeys. I say, wow, I've learned
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: some things this guy hasn't learned. Why this girl hasn't
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: learned all of these things? Read something. We're going to
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: take a quick break here, but we'll be back with
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: more from Sonny Rollins. We're back with more from Sonny Rollins.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm thinking about what you've sewed musically, and
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: that certainly is more and more than I think many
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: people you know would ever contribute to one lifetime. And
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: I was thinking about the year particular, nineteen fifty six
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: for you. That year you played a date with Miles
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: Davis that included Charlie Parker. Do you remember that date? Oh? Yeah,
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: Collectors all Items, Collectors Items exactly. You played Serpent's Tooth.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Did you interact with Bird much on that session? Well,
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: Bird was another one of my rods, so of course
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: there was a lot of other things happening on that
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: particular session. And well, i'd guess a miners year old
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  Speaker 1: say it. At that time, I was still on drugs.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: I hadn't seen Charlie Parker in a law so he
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: said all he said, So, Sonny said, I told him,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: I think it's a Yeah, how are you doing I
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: think he meant that I bet my life together and
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: I tell him, oh yeah, yeah, man him, I'm doing good,
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: you know, Or so I lied to him. I wasn't
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: doing good. And some guys in the band later on
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: during the session they read it on me. They said, oh, Man,
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: Sunday's Sunday was out getting high with this last night.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: So anywhere later on the session, after he found out
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: that I had lied to him, I had noticed something
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: in him had destroyed. He was had despondent. He was
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: to know that that I had and not missed me.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: Then I realized man Bird was so involved that all
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: of the young musicians trying to follow his music in
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: his lifestyle. Yeah, I was killing him. Yeah. Knowing that
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: all these young guys were using drugs, it wor was
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: clilling you? It worse Cloninger and I saw that at
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: this session. So you know what I said, Okay, that said,
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: I said this to myself, I'm going to get off
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: for drugs, and still Charlie Parker that he shouldn't be
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: so down because some people are following his positive effect
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: on their life, not the negative effect. And that's when
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: I made my decision to get off of drugs. Wow,
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that. I had no idea. Yeah, well
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: that's part of this life that I'm living here, so actualy,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: you know what I got off for drugs. I didn't
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: know where they need to know all of that, but
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: it wasn't losing. It's very fascinating. Did you ever get
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: a chance to tell Charlie Okay? What happened was this?
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: There was a drug rehabilitation place in Lexington, Kentucky. It
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: was the first place where everyone was like the Betty
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: Ford Clinic before the Betty Ford Clinic, and a lot
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: of people were there, people that were into drugs and
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: movie stars were there. We were treated like patients, not
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: as criminals anyway. So I was there for the cure.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: The cure was I've been four months I left Lexington
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: and five five fifty five that's when I was discharge
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: or whatever we were to call it. But the unfortunate
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: maybe so maybe not. Part of it was that Charlie
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: Parker passed away one month before I got out of
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: lexc Pinkentucky. So I never got the chance to which
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: I was waiting to do. Growing up your birth Madam
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: straight Charlie or straight man, I would convince him more,
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: he would know that I was scientious, because I was
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: so ashamed of lying to him earlier on this recognate
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: he just recalled. So I was so anxious for this
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: to happen. I would be able to see him and
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: convince him that I was, that I wasn't going to
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: disgrace him anymore. But unfortunately that worth denied me. However,
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: I do believe in things like the afterlife and all
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: that stuff. I think Charlie Parker knew wherever he was
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: at that Oh Sonny got my message. Yeah, no, definitely.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: And you know, really, when you think about it too,
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: it's pretty great timing that you got cleaning fifty five,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: because I mean, in fifty six, your career is really insane.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Your sort, your output I'm thinking about you know, you
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: do Saxophone, Colossus tenor Madness, you do Brilliant Corners with
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: the Loneus um you do a lot of your work
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: with Max Roach and Clifford Brown Quintet. Just really incredible
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: stuff is happening. I wanted to ask you that Brilliant
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Corners album with the Loneus Monk. That record really blows
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: my mind when I listened to it. It's like spectacularly complex,
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: especially that title track. Do you remember was that a
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: tough session? A couple of session, the great tough session.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: It was a little different than the meter that Monk
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: could play before, as I remember, the tough music, tough music.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: But everybody liked that record a lot. You know, always
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: mentioned d when they're talking about months accomplishments. Yeah, did
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: you enjoy playing on it? I think so. I think so.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: It was a hard record to make, you know, it
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: was hard. Everybody didn't get it the first first door around.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: But yeah, sure I was playing with Mark. Playing with
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Mark was it was a celestial experience, whatever came out
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, And I had that experience, and everybody
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: liked bed record a great deal. I know Ernie Henry
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: another tenant player. He ended up leaving I think one
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: of the sessions, and then Clark Terry came into sort
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: of play. Did you ever feel like leaving? Oh no, no, no,
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: maybe if they kicked me out, but I'm not leaving
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: on my own, no, noo. They'd have to show me
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: the door. There was a lot of great people on
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: that record. There was Oscar Pediford was there, Max Rhoades,
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: I believe, and played the chilt I forget everywater that
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: was on the regular verse. It was great. It was
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: a little different than some of the music had done before,
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: so it was quite a quite a landmark. Yeah, seen
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: something about playing in the Max Roach Clifford Brown quintet
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: with with yourself and George Morrow and Richie Powell. It
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: sounds to me like you guys had incredible chemistry. Did
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: it feel that way to you at the time? Of
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: course I had played with Matt some couple times and
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: in New York, but when that was the band was
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Clifford and he it was different. Was right now I
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: was doing more. I think I played as a sideman
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: or something like some retoric Max Roach in New York.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: But when I played with the band, that band, it
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: was really I don't know. I'm glad it sounded like
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: that because I had a great experience playing with Clifford Brown.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: And Clifford was such a straight a straight up guy,
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: was such a straight up player. When the mess players
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: as we know. When I look back today and I
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: talked to different guys, all these young guys, Clifford Brown
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: was her favorite trumpet player, so he was quite a guy.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: But he was also a great person. And I learned
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: a lot from Clifford because Clifford was playing all of
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: this music, but he was not a guy that was
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: missing maryer drugs. He wasn't at Cno. So I said
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: to myself, while, man, listen to all this music he
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: can play and he's not had nothing to do with
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: his personal life. So so you don't have to be
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: using drugs or drinking a lot or and even gotten
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: bad to play as much music as he did. And
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: that was a real expirational to me. And I really
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: learned that a Wow, man, if custics could do it, Man,
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: all his music he's playing, I can do it. I
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: don't need drugs to play. Yeah. So he was a
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: grand and we were good friends. I mean, you know,
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: I was really close after he passed away. When when
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: we were playing in the band and sometimes uh, I'd
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: channeled Clifford. I said, Rumford, man, Uh, what what would
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: what should we do right here? I mean I talked
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: to him like that about the music. Wow, and then
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: he'd answer me. And that were known for a while
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: before that band broke up. Max got I did trump
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: he plays, of course, but that happened for a while
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: and then after a while, I had stopped channeling Clifford
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: and let him go on on his journey his life Juney,
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: but I channeled him for a long time after he passed,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: and then now you know, and we had to play
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: the same music, a lot of the same music. We'll
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: be right back with more from Sonny Rollins after a
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: quick break. We're back with the rest of my conversation
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: with Sonny Rollins. Do you remember where you were when
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: you when you found out Clifford and Richie Powell passed
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: away in the car accident. Well, the brand was in uh,
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: Brownie and Richie were in Padelphia where they lived. Richie
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: lived in Willow Grove, sort of suburb Brownie was in.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: So we had been on the road to Bendmon Road.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: So we had a low time off before we went.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: I think we were going out to California, but on
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: the way we were going to play in Chicago. So anyway,
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: the days we had off, Max and myself Canton, New York,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: and George Morrow came to New York. You know. The
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: next job was Chicarlo, and we left Chicago traveling right
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: car and Brownie and Archie Powell left Philadelphia. Chevron on
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: the Pennsylvania turnbike by car Marx say Now and George Margotten.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: We got to Chicago and we you know, waiting around there.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: I remember Miles was playing at the club right down
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: the street, when sixty thirty street. So while we were
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: waiting for a cliff to arrive in Chicago, we had
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: the bad news. It was a soccer I mean we
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: were quieting like babies, and it was you know, as
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: a branch because everybody loved Brownie. Yeah, I mean Richie too,
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: but Brownie was you know, Brownie was Resilion later and
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: I had gotten more accolade and the Richie, you know,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Richie was served. But she was making his name at
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: the time. Really, huh, he was making his name and
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: the game, yeah, incredible playing Brownie had made his name. Really.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Did you see Bud Powell in the sort of aftermath
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: of that, or ever get a chance to talk with
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Bud Powell, who was Richie Powell's brother. Do you know
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: how he took that? I don't know how he took dead?
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: No O, God's curious. No, I don't know. Did you
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: feel like that band had more yet to do? I
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: had been so we I think you didn't know Clifford
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: and I used to practice together all the time, and
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: besides the gigs, but we were trying to get closer,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: you know, as the musicians playing it a saxophone and trumpet,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: So we were trying to get closer, trying to get
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: tighter with our things. We had to play ensemble and everything,
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: and I was nowhere in the bands. I was trying
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: to learn the book and all this stuff. But besides that,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: there was this resides the repertoire I was playing with
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Clifford that he and I had tried to always get closer.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I think I had a lot to do. Yeah,
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: do you think they had anything to do with you
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: sort of stripping things back and go into like that
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: trio format the next year, just just you on sax
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: and then bass and drums that related musically all. I
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: don't remember when I did the first trio albums that time. Yeah,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: maybe six months later, eight months later it would have
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: been just yeah, Um, I don't know. If no, I
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: don't believe so, because I had always I had always
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: uh enjoyed the small instrumentation. You know. In fact, when
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: I first mad Miles Davis, I was playing trio and
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: we were playing opposite Miles, you know, Miles Receivers Stars
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: and we were the local band, and I think I
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: was playing trio at that time. So no, I think
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: I think the trios I did didn't stem from the
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Comfort Brown period. Were you surprised? I will carryous people
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: found that idea of you just playing in that small
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: trio you based drums like you did on on Way
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Out West or not at the vanguard. I hope that
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: it would be received well, well, I think it was.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: I think it absolutely was. I mean, it's it's it's
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: it's uh, those seem to have really stood the test
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: of time in an incredible way. But it's it's funny
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: also just in a way, how curious people find that
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: you know that that it's like, oh, whoa, you're you know,
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: this is this pianoist trio. You know, it seemed to
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: sort of well, I always liked that, and not pay
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: was a great piano player. There's no reflection on Planner,
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: but I liked the idea of just a rhythm section
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: and uh allowed me to sort of be free in
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: a completely free just compose things in my own in
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: my own mind and create the harmonies and the musical
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: situations and just came to me. I had a rhythm
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: behind me, had the base, and had the drums to
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: keep things moving. Yeah, and I had to feed them
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: to conceive of all of these things. So that's why
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: I like find like that had nothing to do with
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: anything else I got you. There's some wild playing on
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: those records from you, and even some incredible you know,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: even from the other cats, you know, like Night at
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: the Vanguard. H there's a couple of baseils on that
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: record that are great as well. You know. Yeah, I
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: tried to get his guys weren't afraid to put it
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: without your piano. Yeah, so a lot of guys you know,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: would be retacent to do that rose there, you know,
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: because a piano fis right in with the with a
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: with a base, you know, like a hammer and egg. Yeah, yeah,
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: yeah there, I mean, yes, so wow, the piano and
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: jumps here, base here stayen years old. You know, those
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: guys can wake up in the middle of the unit
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: and throw him and dates be right and tune for
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: the next note. So it was something which you know,
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: you're were somewhat of a challenge to them. Yeah, it
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: was wilbur aware by the way, wild beware wilboware We
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: used to have a joker about Robo. We used to
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: call him wilbur being aware. That's great. Alvin Jones also
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: on drums on that, just Sovie Alvin Jones yea incredible,
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: incredible trio man Man Man. I had some other guys
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: on that. On other parts of the record, I added
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: Peter Looker and another guys from Donald Bailey Baltimore. Donald
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: Who is Donald Bailey's I can't figure out who this
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: Donald Bailey bass player? I know there's a drummer Donald Bailey, right,
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: But there's a drummer Donald Bailey. But is there also?
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: But I can't find anything out about a bass player.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: Donald Bailey was I know, I know he was very
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: under Uh that's it full for musician. Nobody know much
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: about him. How did you know him? My good friend
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: went to school then there at uh, I've watched college.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: I forget what it was it because you have to
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: forgive me. You know, there's when again at a certain age,
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: you're your your your memory, you know your short term
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: memory goals. You know it's like ten minutes from now,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: but I need it now. But anyway, No, he's here.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: He was very but he was known in the area,
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: you know, and he's a good player. You know, he
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: played good. I liked him on those things. I always
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: thought maybe was someone that like just couldn't say, like
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: you couldn't say who it was for some contractual reason
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: or something, because I was like, who, Yeah, I can't
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: but know who this guy is. No, don't really and
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: uh unfortunately he passed not too long after those records
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: came out. But they did a great their great job
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: over accompanying me on that. Yeah. Absolutely did the record
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Sunny Side Up that you did with Dizzy Gillespie and
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: Sonny Stitt fifty nine. Oh yeah, how did that come together? Well,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: that came together to Norman Grange. Of course, did you
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: know who Norman Granges? He did jazz at the Philharmonic, right,
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: You put on all those shows a year promoting jazz. Yeah,
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: he did a lot of promotion of different people. And
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: his crowned seatment was jadged the Pharmonic. But he was
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: a big time or jazz promotor. He ain't replaying someplace. See.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: He got to be a big fan of mine and
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: then he was his date. I mean he arranged your
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: date that so it turned out to be sunny and
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: Sunny and Dizzy. Yeah. Were you friendly with Dizzey at
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: that time or did you know him decently well or
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: at all? Yeah, I was funded with Desy. You know,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: if you know Dozey at all, you've got to be
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: friendly with him. That type for guy, he's going to mean,
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: he's always going to be something light and amusing that
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: uh becomes part of the conversation. And you know, Dozy
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: was a wonderful guy. Dizzey was a guy that always
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: was teaching people's stuff. You know, he don't real young
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: users should be run and he's coming and you know
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: that they showed to get it on the piano and
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: show the piano playing some chords and sense chords, you know,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: stuff like that. He was a great natural teacher. I mean,
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: not that, I mean he wasn't trying to diminish again
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: not I didn't ring like that. I mean we were
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: happy to have Dizzy Gilaspie there. That that was said.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: He won't he wanted to h to to teach, you know,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: not to despatch the other guy at all, not in
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: that sense in the least. Yeah, if everybody was listening
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: to what he was doing, saying and playing that record
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: Sunny Side Up was kind of an anomaly. I feel like, uh,
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: in your catalog at least, you know, at the time,
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: it felt maybe much more like a dizzy record than
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: any anything else, which I think is probably only natural.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: I think it's a dizzy record. Zard. Yeah, I mean
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: it's kind of like the three of you guys. I mean,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: you know it's it's named Sunny seven. It was Busy Gillespie,
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: it was his session. I mean yeah, yeah, no, no, no,
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: that's fair, that's fair. That's such a cool record. Yeah,
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: some people liked to lot. Some people, uh musicians, Uh
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: really thought that that was one of my best records. Yeah,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: well you know what, you recorded that fifty seven, but
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: it comes out fifty nine. The next year, nineteen sixty,
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: Lee Morgan quoted you on a Jazz Messengers record he
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: did your little band down. Uh just they're just this
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: little phrase that you do. Oh really and yeah, and
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: in League quoted you on this song called the Opener
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: on a Jazz Messengers record just the next year. It's good. Yeah,
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: I know. Layers a great player. Yeah, leaders should come
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: whenever he was playing with Match and Comfortence some Aladelphia
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: at a club there Lee would come by, you know,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: to have Cliffin. It means that's another guy, I mean,
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: the young guy. They all love Cliffic so much. So anyway,
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: that's when they meant to me. And uh, he used
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: to play outside the cover with his uh mouthpiece alone.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: He would show me what he could do just playing
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: his mouthpiece. In those who I'd say, they say, hey, man,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: that's good there Lee Morgan. I mean, but he's great. Man,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: he's a great player. You never got to play with him,
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: did you. I don't think so. I don't think so. No.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: I think that's one one of the trumble players that
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: I missed. Would have been great to hear you guys together. Man. Yeah,
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: I wonder Roddson must have been a Yeah, I'm sure.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: I'm sure I would have been uh inspired. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: I'm curious as anyone you admire outside of jazz in
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: terms of musically, Oh yeah, I admire all of the
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: great musicians from their centuries. I like Jay as Mac,
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: I like uh Brahms, Oh, David Cravell, I like Fat Swaer, Louis,
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Joard new kors Man, Luis I'm my favorite year and Alls.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: I like everybody. Yeah, I appreciate all Kashian music. Do
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: you listen to music at all? Still? These days? It's yours? Three?
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: What do you? What do you listen to? What do
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: you enjoy listening to? Now? I never listen to too
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: much music. It's usage. I have listened to so much
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: music in my life. I still think music all the time.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: I'm still playing my horn, even though I can't play
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: my horn anymore. I'm skill of my imagining passages that
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: I would be fingering on my instrument, although I can't
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: do that anymore. So I'm listening to music. I love music,
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: and occasionally I get to hear music, aren't some of
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: the radio stations I have on. I hear some music
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: and I love it. But I don't go out to
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: listen to music anymore. I don't mean go out in
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: the street. I mean I don't seek out music anymore.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: It is it frustrating to hear it in a sense,
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: since you can't you just pick up your horn and
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: play some figures or anything. To a certain extent, I
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: wouldn't look very completely his frustration, but that's part of it,
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: because I hear something and I fear what I would
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: be doing. What I can do so in a sense
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: I was safe. This not a frustration because I love
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: music and listening to somebody that I admire. It is great.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: It's a great feeling. So frustration might come a littlement
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: because I can't contribute, being that it was part of
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: the insig Sonny. It is um. There is a pleasure
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: and an honor speaking with you. I hope we get
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: to do it again. Okay, man, take it easy in
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: God bless you as well, sir. All right man, all right, bye, Sonny.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: Thanks for Sonny Rollins for taking us back to some
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: of the earliest, most important moments in American recorded music history.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: Do you hear your favorite Sonny Rollins songs? Check out
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: the playlist at broken Record podcast dot com. Be sure
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: slash broken Record Podcasts, where you can find all of
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: our new episodes. Can follow us on Twitter at broken Record.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: Broken Record is produced a help from Lea Rose, Jason
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: gambrel Ent, Holiday, Rick Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: help from Nick Chaffey. Our executive producer is Mia Lobell.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you
• 39:26
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• 39:28
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• 39:32
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• 39:36
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• 39:41
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• 39:43
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• 39:46
  Speaker 1: expect Anny Beats, I'm justin Richmond,