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Summer House Reunion: Our Unfiltered Reactions to Part 1 (of 3) · Syllabus

• Ashby: For a few seconds and let it catch up. And and again, it's not recording our video, but if it freezes and you don't see video, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. It means it took that away to s preserve bandwidth. It probably if if you can still hear me, it's good. ⁓ okay. Echo, yes, yes, yes, blue snowball, yes, yes, yes. And audience doesn't know this, but we're both wearing husband's gamer headphones. Coco: Yeah. Got it. Yeah. Ashby: Because ⁓ the AirPods kept dying, so we had to we had to switch. Now we look like a couple gamer girls. Is that us? Coco: The AirPods kept dying. And it's funny because my AirPods last forever. just, wondered, look, I don't know if being connected to the computer is different than being connected to my phone. That doesn't seem to make any sense. But I was like, I can't believe the AirPods are dying. They last forever when I'm like doing stuff around the house. Ashby: But you forget that we record for three hours straight. Which is kind of asking a lot, especially if you've listened to, and I know you have three podcasts already that morning. Coco: I know. I know. I know. I, this morning I had to pause my podcast because I was trying to think of my thoughts for this podcast. So I had intrusive podcast thoughts amidst a different podcast. And this is going to be a nice, ⁓ let's call it a hodgepodge, a bits and bobs episode because. Ashby: No, never never think Never think about this podcast. No one else does. I'm calling it a j I'm calling it jazz. I called it jazz episode. Yeah. ⁓ No. All thirty seven of you. Okay, where do you want to start? Coco: Yeah, jazz hands. Will it make sense? No. Will you like it? That's going to really depend on your mood. I think we have to start with Summer House because it's the show we have already recorded more than three hours. We've released three hours about Summer House. And that was a lifetime ago. Ashby: I was hoping you'd say that. Coco: compared to where we are now in the present day. And yes. Ashby: And those were edited. Like that was way pared down. Okay? There's at least two hours on the cutting room floor. So we have even more we could say about it. Kyle Yeah, yeah. Coco: I'm just just going Kyle Yeah, and we got to talk about Kyle a tiny bit. ⁓ Yeah, I'm curious to hear where you are with Summer House. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Okay, so ⁓ so we have watched the first part of the three part reunion series and obviously we'd already heard the leaks from the leaked audio. So it was nice when we watched that to have some confirmation of some of the suspicions there. So it's like okay, seating chart is how we thought it was that that it was in fact ⁓ Carl who said Coco: ⁓ huh. ⁓ huh. Uh-huh. Ashby: had the little interruption where he interjected, ⁓ okay, so it was ⁓ you wanted to serious enough to give it some thought, but not serious enough to go like, what the fuck? ⁓ which was kind of out of character for him a little bit. ⁓ so I it was good to have some of those confirmation things. ⁓ and then gosh, my overall impressions are again, Lindsay Hubbard is, as we've said, what just a reality TV show queen. ⁓ she is fascinating. I should her dress was incredible. Everybody looked incredible actually. ⁓ well, except for Wes. He looked he looked like he was at a kindergarten graduation. He looked like a large man at kindergarten graduation. Coco: He's kind of, I'm not trying to say anything positive about West, but we just shouldn't be putting him in a suit. It's the wrong thing for him to be wearing. It looks very, yes, like a kindergarten graduation, like plain dress up. Like let that man wear his sweats. I don't know. Ashby: It's the wrong look. Yeah, he can wear his nice sweats. I did I did think the choice to put Kyle in what I would consider ⁓ undercover air marshal outfit instead of an actual like suit was kind of interesting. He looked like he was trying to look low key on the plane. Coco: Yeah, and this is when I was saying we got to talk about Kyle. ⁓ You you and I went to a watch party where the one rule for the watch party was don't defend Kyle. ⁓ And I don't think we're defending Kyle, but I just I really have enjoyed that this summer house journey has kind of introduced me to new media personalities. And that includes Jodie Walker from the We're Obsessed pod, who has coined the phrase or just, you know, Ashby: Mm. Coco: brought the phrase to me in my life of adult male blondes. And she uses this to talk about Kyle. And she talks about the fact that she's like, the adult male blonde does have casts a spell over me that I am attracted to Kyle. And it's not to excuse his behavior, but I want to say Kyle has somehow been fueled from the inside through this scandal to just look Ashby: ⁓ my god, how true. Mm-hmm. Coco: Prettier and prettier. I don't understand. Ashby: It makes you wonder like It it's truly honestly, he has a second he has a second life just doing skincare routine for men. Like that is such an untapped market. Like this man is the best advertisement for sunscreen and moisturizer and probably red light therapy that I've ever seen. Yeah, like like he could just do that. He could just do that on TikTok and just be like, All right, bros, this morning. He could do a lover boy line of skincare. my god, ⁓ my god, ⁓ my god. Coco: Talks. while he drinks his lover boy while he does his skincare routine. Ashby: I just had the best idea. Kyle, you can steal this but not for free, okay? You need to do a collab between Loverboy and Loctane. Coco: because Amanda used to work there. And he, again, kind of strong-armed his wife into quitting her job and being fully dependent on him. So, yeah. Ashby: Yes I know. Yes I know. Made her quit? But would I try would I try the would I try the Kyle Lover Boy summer eye cream from Loctane? Yeah, I would try it. I will fucking try it. Coco: And you know, I want my husband to wear more sunscreen. He is very pale. And I think he might buy a Kyle Cook branded sunscreen. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Kyle Cook branded sunscreen called, ready for it? Summer should be fun. Coco: Summer should be safe. Ashby: Shummer sh yes. Can you okay? He's on my screen. He's just washed his face like a Neutrogena girl. He's rubbing it on. Water is splashed everywhere. He he turns dramatically to the camera and he's like, Kyle Cook, sunscreen, because summer should be fun. ⁓ look, am I a branding expert? Maybe. Maybe I'm just an untapped branding resource over here. Loves puns. Coco: Yeah, water is splashed everywhere. Yes! Definitely not. You are ⁓ a woman who now has more cats than she did during the last recordings. Ashby: I did that just to spite J J D Vance. Okay, anyways, back to reunion. Yes. So ⁓ yeah, overall impressions were wow. ⁓ some people were well, okay. What was I gonna say? ⁓ some people seemed woefully underprepared, some people seemed highly rehearsed and just high, period. Yeah, the beta blockers. Coco: yeah. Some people say hi. Well, and this is because of Giggly Squad. We know a lot about the beta blocker world where, you know, taking a beta blocker to, I don't totally know what it does, but it seems like it's not supposed to like make you high in any way. It just is like removing the like anxiety response mechanism. Yeah. Ashby: Doing their best. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's just taking the nervous system down a little bit. So you're a little slower reaction time. And I think it mostly like modulates like, yeah, the heart rate and stuff like that. We don't know. We're not doctors. I should Google it. I feel like we can say that the odds are good that at least one out of the 15 people there was on at least one beta blocker. Coco: And we don't know that anyone was on a beta blocker. We don't. But it... Yeah, I think a lack of an emotional awareness was really on display. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Truly, truly. And ⁓ yeah, I think it was I think it was interesting. So I think Kyle's media training's really showing. Like he is good. He is very good at controlling his face. He's good on the spot. He's good at not interrupting. And ⁓ You know, saying things like you you had said this and now I watch for it. Saying like little asides that get picked up on the mic, but that aren't like to out to the audience. ⁓ so yeah, I think for that first episode, Kyle came out looking okay. Lindsay came out looking okay. Really extra love for Mia and KJ. Like honestly, just want to show about them at this point. ⁓ and Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Ashby: Not feeling super encouraged to watch the city, I don't know. The whole thing is kind of curdled for me. I don't know. What were your impressions? Coco: Yeah, so I have the reunion itself. I've watched a lot of Bravo reunions and a lot of them are not that memorable. Sometimes there's like a moment that's memorable from them. I think because we watched this in a group setting, I then did separately watch it again. ⁓ But, and my feelings were watching it in a group setting, some things hit so funny. Some things were just, Ashby: ⁓ okay. Coco: hilarious and I don't know that I've really felt that way about like many reunions of watching Bravo for many years now, but also ⁓ really like impactful kind of powerful kind of like give them an Emmy like great reality show reunion like kind of best I've seen it there is still so much to cover and Ashby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Coco: What's weird is we're recording this now by the time we release it, there will have been a part two, so we don't know what's going to come out in that. ⁓ But agree that you end on this big cliffhanger, but emotional punch where Sarah has kind of a little bit read Amanda's character. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: of being like, I've been a good friend to you, so I actually see you really closely and I'm like now reading you as being a person who will not like stand up for yourself, won't like take a stand. And it was, you know, a harsh burn, but kind of well deserved and kind of only the kind of burn that can only be like delivered by someone who has an intimate awareness of that person and how they behave in their romantic partnerships. But then to cut from that to go to like in the city was Ashby: Yeah. Coco: crazy. I was like, they should have done this in the other order. They should have aired in the city first and then gone into the reunion maybe. I know that wouldn't have really worked Bravo structure-wise, but it just felt like we can't now go to this different time in the past where we didn't know what we know and you want us to be invested in this world. Also, my really petty complaint about In the City is that there's so clearly a color scheme that they have all been given a color palette of what they're supposed to look like. And I'm kind of annoyed by it. I'm like, I don't really need everyone from the show to be dressing the same way. This is too heavy handed. I don't like it. Ashby: I thought everyone looked amazing. I thought whoever's done their colors has got them absolutely nailed. But ⁓ I see. I see. ⁓ Coco: ⁓ mean the in the city people, not the reunion. no, in the city, they're all wearing these like, caramels and like darker clothes. they're trying to be like, it's not summer anymore, it's fall! Ashby: Mm-hmm. They're definitely I see Yes. Yes. They're really leaning into that, which is dumb because it's my impression that everyone in New York just wears black year-round. So they could just do that. ⁓ but I was gonna say, you know that I'm fucked up because as soon as I saw Lindsay's dress, I knew what designer it was. That's Maria Lucia Hohan. And I have one of her dresses that I bought secondhand the second that I saw it pop up on a used site. Coco: Wow. Ashby: ⁓ it was an unconscionable expense, but she just designs the most amazing ethereal silk draped gowns. And ⁓ I was thinking it the whole time, just very sure of myself, but I just googled it just now and I'm just so proud of myself. I I just was like, ⁓ yeah, that's Maria Lucia Hohen. No problem. No, no, no chance it's not. ⁓ but it was stunning, stunning. I loved it. Best best dressed. Coco: that well and I loved Andy was like why are you wearing a revenge dress and she was basically like to support Kyle but I loved Ashby: Yes. But but that's what that's what our friend was saying at the watch party is that it shows you how online they are because it's clearly invoking Ariana's revenge dress, which is like, you know, it it it's funny. It's like a funny thing that her and Kyle are in on, yeah. Coco: And I really enjoyed that like the lead up to the, there was so much time, the amount of time between when we learned of this scandal and then watch this back half of Summer House play out in front of our eyes where every episode made the scandal a more rich text and every episode made it worse. It was like, I don't know, there's been a lot of stuff said about the reunion itself, but like the back half of the Summer House season, Ashby: Yes. Yes. Yes. Coco: was quite wild to watch in real time. ⁓ But Lindsay is very online. And so Lindsay knew that the audience wanted her to play her role of the evil queen. And she looked like an evil queen in the best, most complimentary way. We got a text from our friend, who we lovingly refer to on this pod as the queen of spades. But ⁓ Ashby: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: you know, she doesn't watch summer house and she just saw clips from the reunion and she's asking me who is the blonde in red? And I respond, Lindsay Hubbard, AKA mother Hubbard, a true reality show resource. And she just says she is scary, but mesmerizing. It just could not be more true. Ashby: Mm mm. Mm-hmm. True. It's just so accurate. Yeah. She you just can't take your eyes off her when she's on screen and you also have this unsettled feeling that anything could happen. Coco: Yes, she's reassuring and terrifying. Ashby: Yes, like you feel like at any moment she could like flip a table, you know, or maybe like administer CPR. I don't know. She's like both like very competent and very scary. So I yeah, I loved her. I I think I think she really showed up. She showed up great. She was like audience surrogate. And and the fact that she has so much seniority really makes a big difference because no one's talking over Lindsay. They know that they that her followers will come for you. Like Coco: Yes. It's wonderful. Ashby: So I appreciate that when she wants to say something, like it gets the full airtime and she's like, Wes, let me ask you a question. What matters more? Is it having sex with someone or like an emotional connection? And then she and he's like, Well, emotional. And she's like, Thank you. And then she just is silent. And there's no live audience there. I know. There's no live audience there. So you have to Coco: It's like a vulture. Ashby: You have to think about what kind of fucking balls you have to have to say something like that, knowing that there won't be like a Jerry Springer audience to go, Ooh, she just lets that shit fucking sit in silence. So that's that's like really impressive to me. Coco: Mm-hmm. man. Ashby: So yeah, ⁓ Lindsay was great, so glad she was there. and then the Sierra and Amanda thing, that's what we really gotta talk about. Like who honestly at this point, who gives a shit about West? Like he's just proven over and over again that he's just he's just a freaking he's a he's a user. Like he just uses girls and that's just his whole MO. Coco: just feel like West, I know I want to talk about the Amanda and Zira of it all, but I do feel like West is such an example of like a type of behavior that's very much like, well, I never said we were like a boyfriend and girl. It's just very like based on technicalities as opposed to an understanding of like human emotion and treating women like they are real. Ashby: Yeah. Coco: Like I just don't know how or maybe all people like I don't of course he's also dismissed his male friendship. So ⁓ it's it's just a true dismissal of like caring for other people. And I just it's not just West who's like that. That's like a type. That's like a whole category of behavior. But agree like there's no hope in wanting it to be ⁓ anything other than just like disappointing, I guess. Ashby: Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. I think he's like a fuckboy, but it's like beyond that. He's like a pathological fuck boy. And the worst thing is that he is sort of like psychologically addicted to keeping things light friendly and casual. And when things go to a deeper place, it's like he panics or something. ⁓ and I think it's even true like for his male friendships, like he Coco: Yeah! Yeah. Ashby: He wants to sort of like perform, he wants to perform like fun, life of the party friendly guy, but he's not really thinking about people's like real emotions and real feelings in like a deep way because he's so focused on like the performance of ⁓ everybody likes me, I'm everybody's friend, ⁓ being likable, you know, because if he was really thinking about like what a true friendship would look like. I think he would have interacted with Kyle really differently, but now looking back on all of those moments with Kyle, it seems clear that he's like performing for the cameras in a way. Coco: And not even just Kyle, but I think you could take this to his relationship with KJ, a person he brought into the house. They're from the same place. They in theory have an established friendship before the show starts. And then he performs checking in on KJ, who is talking about his mental health and anxiety that he's experiencing in this very new, very like intense reality show environment. And I think West loves looking like the good guy. Ashby: Yeah. Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah. Coco: who checks in on his male friends and is representing this like positive masculinity. But then what we know is that the show ends and KJ is struggling with this like experience of we were so close, there was this family, I had all this stuff going on and now like the cameras go away, people go back to their regular lives and having a really hard time with that and getting a mental health diagnosis. And then where's West? What we know is that Sierra and Mia were there for Ashby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Coco: KJ in the hospital. Like it was just, it's just really like you, no respect for the fact that if you're dipping your toes in with a person who really is have, takes things seriously like Sierra or is having a mental health situation like KJ, if you step in to say, I'm going to like be there for you as a real friend, you can't just be there for like the like, ⁓ I did, I asked the question I was supposed to ask, check that box. Now I can walk away. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Well, you have to think it's because there's no audience. You can't you can't film for your Instagram reels just here checking in on my boy at the mental institute. You can't do that. He only does things that he can post, you know, and or where the when the cameras are on. And you also think really, I I think Sierra said it when she's Yeah, but this is how you are with your friends too, because allegedly he was friends with Amanda. Coco: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ashby: And he was, quote, there for her during this difficult time in her relationship. And I I'm not making excuses for Amanda at all. ⁓ but I do think that him entertaining something with her is predatory. It just is. Like, you know she's in a vulnerable place and you know that it will harm her brand. You know that she's friends with your ex. Like Coco: Yeah, right. Yeah. Ashby: Just the fact that he would even entertain that. Plus, he's friends with Kyle and has been like trying to sort of like you said, he's dipped a toe into sort of trying to be a positive run interference person in their relationship. That it's so hollow to then to even like flirt with her just throws everything under the bus, you know, from his relationship with Kyle. It's like, okay, guess that wasn't important. And his like true. Coco: ⁓ huh. ⁓ huh. Ashby: He clearly doesn't have like a true grappled understanding of her marriage if he would be willing to cross that line with her. Like then in that case he was just performing for the cameras. Coco: I totally agree and I just going back to what you said about West where he likes the light and breezy but then if things get too serious it's like panic time or something. I just want to reflect on the fact that this scandal has taken me to places I never thought I would be. And one of those places was listening to a whole podcast by someone who I forget what they called themselves. It's like an intuitive like empath. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Coco: who was like, let me tap into West energy and let me give you what I'm feeling if I think about this. And it was such, it was almost pin exactly what you were saying. And I was like, I can't believe I'm listening to this like craziness, but I was also like, honestly, this was a pretty interesting psychological experiment that this person went on. Ashby: ⁓ okay. Mm-hmm. What I really get from him is a child of divorced parents. I don't know that his parents are divorced, but I really get like peacekeeper in the family that was sort of like maybe like middle child clown class clown whose job it is to keep it light. And like I relate to that. I definitely have played that role in my own life, but you grow out of that. Like you you learn that you can't that that isn't what real relationships are. Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: that you do have to have moments that are awkward where you're not on all the time if you want to like really build something with people. And you'll see that. Like you'll see people like move and just forget all their friends from somewhere else that they've lived or whatever. Because it's not, it's not part of the look, you know, it's not you can't post about these people. So if you're not going to go out with them and do a fit check, then what's the point in texting them on their birthday? You know? Coco: ⁓ huh. And ⁓ my God, during this back half of the season, West is literally going to Kyle and being like, you need to be a better friend to Carl because you didn't check in on Carl on the day that his brother passed away. The anniversary of that, which is crazy. This was the back half of Summer House. was like, everything I watched, was like watching a horror movie, but like fascinating. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah, which Yeah. But also that just goes to show you he is smart. He is good at picking up on what people want to see. And the only reason he did that is the cameras were rolling. Like if the cameras aren't rolling, I don't think he gives a shit. Cause they're not nobody's s you don't hear a single person say like, ⁓ you know, after the summer, me and West are f doing XYZ or whatever. Like I'm you're not really getting that. It's it really seems like if you're not yeah. Coco: I know. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, we're getting Sierra and Wester at the Super Bowl together in February. But yes, yes, we can move on. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ sure. Ashby: God. ⁓ okay. I do want to I wanna take I want to take that part on. Let's take take that part on. So first of all, I've seen a lot of people calling to get Wes off the show. And I actually think that's fine because he's just he's betrayed everyone in the house, you know, by by lying, by making a move on the married friend, by like playing with Sierra's emotions multiple times, putting everyone in an awkward position where honestly there just can't be any other conversations. It's kind of like wrecking the the storylines for other people because no one can really get invested in that because West is kind of monkeying and everything, you know? Coco: I actually, bad behavior, that's reality TV is built on. Being kind of living out loud or whatever is fine. Like we have space for that. But what Sierra called West is the most fraudulent person on this stage. I believe that she was the one who said that. And it's like, I don't wanna watch you. I have narrative television shows for things that are invented and created. I wanna watch reality people who are Ashby: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: even if it is produced, are still kind of authentically themselves. That's why we like Lindsay Hubbard. That's why we like Carl. Like, that's why we like Ciara the most of all these people. It's like they do put something that is genuine out there for us. And West feels like he is playing with people for an audience and what he thinks people want to see. And so it's like, well, I actually, how can don't trust you. You're multiple times lying to us. ⁓ Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yes. Coco: both in your behavior on the show and like in all of the stuff that's happened over the past couple of months. So I'm totally disinterested in seeing him ⁓ on reality TV. I don't know what's going on with Amanda. I don't think that she's like that way though. Like I don't think she's fake. I think she's something's wrong up top. Ashby: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Like West is like tofu. Like he has no flavor of his own. How dare how how dare I insult to how dare I insult ⁓ compressed soybeans in this way? ⁓ I'm so sorry. Yeah, but no, he has nothing. It's like he only responds to the drama that's happening around him. And like, how can he capitalize on that? And that isn't Coco: How dare you say that about my best friend Tofu! Ashby: Fun because he's not actually, he himself is not actually interjecting anything. He himself is not actually bringing anything. All he's doing is sort of feeding off of the energies and the feelings of the people that are already there. So in a way, that doesn't, that's not an additive dynamic, like someone like KJ or Mia, who brings their own thing and their own perspective and their own energy to the show. He's just kind of this like, like, like she said, like social climber, cloud chaser. ⁓ Coco: Yeah. Ashby: it's a little bit parasitic. Like I don't really I it's not fun to watch someone who's not bringing anything who is just sort of playing like monkey bars between all the different people. Coco: Well, what do we like about you, West? We like that you are fun, that you are kind of funny, that you were like nice and kind and like a softer version and all those things are fake. Like you're mean, he's a mean person. Ashby: Yeah. Yeah. And then it turns out all those things were fake. Well ⁓ and a deeply like self-interested person, you know, like a just self-absorbed person. So, you know, once again, maybe we should have ⁓ listened listened to all the women that said that said, ⁓ fuck this guy, but okay. Anyways, ⁓ Coco: Yeah. And maybe we should have listened to Paige at the read on him at the reunion she did a couple years ago. Ashby: Paige really she said, like, we see how you how you act. Like you're not treating her like a real person. God, gotta give it up for Paige. Anyways, okay, so a couple things I want to say. I've looked at a couple like short, you know, takes online about this. I agree, Sierra absolutely buried them. Like, and she's by the way, she did billboard that for everyone. She said, We let's have a conversation before I fully bury them in dirt. Okay. Coco: She says she's gonna bury the details in dirt and I will say it because it wasn't violent, which she was saying, but. Ashby: Yeah. Yeah. But like she she pretty much yeah, she she dealt them some blows. And look Coco: And there's still so much we have to talk, like there's still so much to come in this reunion, but yes, keep going. Ashby: Yeah, I know. There's still so much. Yeah. Okay. So there has been some like feedback that's like Sierra came out too hot, but then it's like Sierra can't fucking win. Okay. Because before people said she didn't stand up for herself. I'm not seeing it. I think she was rightly very pissed off and angry. ⁓ she was fully lied to and she said that like, you know, maybe there's some other people that you lie to on reality TV that are like, ⁓ well, par for the course. But she's like, these are my real friends, my real relationships that she really feels it's like she sort of has to come out in a shirt that's like I can't believe I have to fucking litigate this again of like, don't play with my feelings. They are real. ⁓ so very frustrating that she's in that position. ⁓ so I I yeah. Yeah. Coco: Like she's a black woman. So if she comes out too angry, people will be like, she's too angry. Like that's not fair. Like, and she, first of all, was truly betrayed by these people and discarded. Like I don't, she could be more angry. Ashby: That's what I was gonna say. Yeah, yeah. She could be more angry. I thought she was remarkably collected about the whole thing. I thought she was, you know, delivering things in a way that was like, well, here's the facts. You know, you're and sharing like how that made her feel. I don't think she's under any obligation to tamp things down and try to do respectability politics at this point. Like people have disrespected her. Why does she need to like perform respectability to them? I don't get it. Coco: disrespected her in a way that is like, again, I will never stop thinking about it. She told them about how hard this experience was of being a black person dating interracially. And then she's cried to Amanda about West specifically. talked to, she was talking about like how she just really loves West, like loves him as a person. And they, now we know, Ashby: I will never understand. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: But at the end of the season, they are rekindling things emotionally, so it's romantically. So it's not like it's been two years ago. This is her ex. She was sleeping over West's apartment in the fall. This is not long ago. It's crazy. I'm just like, yeah, she has all the room in the world to be upset about it. And what I loved was Ciara really saying, like, I invite Amanda to things. I have tried to be her real friend. She doesn't come. Ashby: Mm-hmm. I know. Mm-hmm. But she was moving sneaky. She was being shady. She was not responding because she knows that what she's up to is not okay. So she's hiding shit. She's being shady. ⁓ so yeah, I God, yeah. I feel I feel bad for Sierra, and I think she can say whatever she wants to say and be as angry as she wants to be. And I think, first of all, it makes great TV, and it's also coming from a really honest place from her. And Coco: Yeah. Uh-huh. Ashby: ⁓ again, I don't think she's under any obligation to like take some kind of high road or perform some kind of, you know, like perform some kind of like big forgiving, ⁓ magnanimous arc or anything like that. And so when I see people saying that, I it gives me cringe because I just think there's nothing a black woman can do on TV right, you know? That's how people act. Coco: the alternative acting really hurt? That's worse. Like that's she has given us so much vulnerability. She can be pissed and then she can go get her checks from all of her incredible brand deals. And she just isn't now she's going to be in the music video for Shaboosie was a really love and I saw it and I was like, I've started crying and I was like, obviously, I'm too close to this. Too close to Summerhouse, but it's beautiful. I just I love it and Ashby: That's worse, yeah. Mm-hmm. ⁓ my god, so fun. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah, I do too. And I I love her real relationships and you really see the difference between what a fake shallow perform for the cameras relationship looks like versus when the cameras let us watch real relationships, like her and Mia and her and KJ. It's like so beautiful and nice. And I really love it. And it's yeah, these are real people. So, but okay, I do want to get to like one item, which is about the receipts part of things. Coco: Mm-hmm. her. Yeah. Please do. Ashby: I I saw that this was gonna be how it was. That's what everyone said, which is Kyle and Amanda are gonna or sorry, not Kyle and Amanda. ⁓ my god, help me, Lord. It's so hard. West and Amanda are gonna come in hyper focused on timeline and trying to get their lies straight, which is so obvious they're lying, right? There's it's like painfully obvious. Yes. Yes. Coco: It's so hard. They're lying. It's like a cheap television show that's like a detective and then you see like the two people who are like, let's get our story straight real quick. Like, it's like that. We don't fucking believe you that you only had sex after you released the statement. Ashby: It's rough. Okay, but let's talk about that. That's what I want to say. The one thing I haven't seen people hit on is, and maybe we're going to get there in the following two episodes, if they only had sex after the statement came out, but we've heard that the reason the statement was rushed is because they had a video of them in a compromising position. What fucking video? What compromising position? What are they talking about? Like, does someone have a long lens of them? doing something, but then they said the reason it was coming out was because they were in a quote like vulnerable, intimate position. Does she mean she was sending like video nudes of herself, like wanking it to him? And that's what she meant? Coco: know, but I again also thought this same thing and I don't care. What? I don't care if if it's like the Monica Lewinsky blowjob thing, which again, just as for Monica Lewinsky, but like, I don't care what sex acts you're doing. I don't care if you don't fuck and you are sleeping over multiple times and it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Ashby: That's the thing, no one cares. Yes, exactly. Yes. It super doesn't matter. Yeah, you're you're acting flirty and intimate and like whatever. Even Amanda says at one point she's like, We were just talking. And it's like, that is some high school girl shit to be like, we're just talking. I just grow up. Like it doesn't matter like what the spectrum of things are, but they seem to think that the only thing that matters is when the when the flaccid P went into the V. That seems to be The only thing that it they think that people care about. And that's not a line anyone gives a shit about. What people care about is like the intent behind it. But that seems to be what they what they think. They're so hyper fixated on the details and the timeline, but no one gives a shit about that. If you're like Coco, if you're holding hands with my ex in a bar, that's enough. That's like enough. Coco: Yeah. It's like the kind of, it's also the same thing where it's like, we've talked about even during our Lily Allen in the terror of divorce episode, where like, what Lily Allen talks about is being mad that he is playing tennis with this other woman. It's like the sex part, actually the sex, two people wanting to bang each other and having sex, it's like understandable. Yeah, more forgivable. But you're like hanging out all the time and like, Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yes. In a way more forgivable. Coco: Having all this other intimacy is worse. Ashby: That's really it. It's more that ⁓ it's more that Amanda is cheating on Sierra with West. That's really what it was about, is that instead of like hanging out with her friend and being there for her friend and like investing in her female relationships, she's turning her location off so that she can run around with her friend's ex and all his like weird streetwear friends on Instagram. Like Coco: ⁓ huh. Shout out to Lena Dunham for calling him that street wear boy. Ashby: Streetwear boy, exactly. And I can understand that she's like wanting to feel validated and like get attention. I think there's also some I don't know what the age difference is, but I get the kind of sense that Amanda maybe feels like uncool, like an uncool divorced lady, and that like Wes's group of friends represents like cool hip young people to her. Although Coco: Yeah, they're close. They're close in age, but she is a couple years older than him. I think like three. Ashby: And so I think she was like, ⁓ I'm feeling like a cool girl now and mistake, massive mistake. Yeah, so they're way too focused on the details and all that stuff. Also, Amanda would have absolutely known that Sierra had like spent the night or something a couple of times at West House. And if Yes. Coco: Mm-hmm. she would have absolutely known if not from Sierra, from West. Ashby: Well, f well, I was gonna say if not from West, then definitely from Sierra. West makes sense that West wouldn't say anything about anything to anyone, but certainly Sierra would have been like, I just spent the night at West. Coco: So. Yeah. I know, but Amanda and West were like hanging out before then West went on a date with Mia from Southern Hospitality, who is also one of the most stunning women I've ever seen in my life. Like, I think there's a weird ⁓ cool girl thing of like, I'll hang out with you and then you'll go on a date with someone else. Like, it's a weird behavior. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, that's what that's what Mia on this show was saying was like, why would you go from being married to being one of West side bitches? And it's true, but like, I'm not defending Amanda, but like I can see her thinking that this is her entering her era of being single, unattached, and like she's not exclusive with anyone. She doesn't feel tied down, so no one owes her anything. I could see her in her mind thinking that, but with a person like West. Coco: Yeah. Ashby: You're just in a way you're like you're dis you're helping him disrespect other girls too, though, is the thing. Is the thing. It's like maybe in your mind you're like, okay, this is a this is a safe person to be my sort of soft launch into singledom because I know them, they're on the reality show with me, some of the stakes are the same for them. ⁓ they're a friendship turned flirty. Like maybe in her mind, this was like a safe way to dip the toe into single cool girlness. ⁓ Coco: Yeah! Ashby: But it's just a total misread of this person's character big time. Coco: It was very telling in the reunion when Amanda said, like, and Sierra was like, my question is like, why? Like, why did they do this is when she enters the reunion. And I don't remember what leads up to Amanda saying this specifically, but they're kind she's kind of accusing her like, why? And Amanda's like, well, West was there for me during the summer when I was having a hard time with Kyle. And then Sierra's like, where was I? And where was I? And Amanda's like, you're there too. Ashby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: But I do think that it's like, what about this scandal is like big picture zoom out, like about all of us that we can like take from this. And it is like, think Amanda fundamentally would not see Sierra's support, would not value Sierra's support. She used this woman, but it's like a blindness and I think there's layers to it. It's a blindness to caring to your female friends. ⁓ Ashby: Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. It's internalized misogyny and it's also racism. Yeah. Coco: It's racism. It's a, the, the black woman's emotional labor for you is not visible in the same way as West moving his fucking chair. Okay. West moving his chair. West gets to look like the white knight or whatever you want to say. And like, or intervening when Kyle's berating you in the bathroom or whatever. Like West gets to look like the hero. They're both getting off on this, Amanda and West, but like Sierra is the person who's Ashby: She feels entitled to Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah. Coco: looking at you and holding your crying face and being like, you deserve better and crying with you over and over and over again. Like, ⁓ I know I'm just saying the same things we've all said, but it really just sticks out. Ashby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, West is a typical example of again, everyone should go read. ⁓ should go read too much and boundary boss to learn more about being a high functioning codependent. But West's behavior here is one that reinforces Kyle's actions because essentially what happens is every time Kyle does something shitty, Amanda, I'm not gonna say Amanda plays victim. I think people throw that around. I think Kyle does do shitty things to her. Coco: Mm-hmm. Yeah, he has been really shitty. Yeah. Ashby: Yeah, I think he does do shitty things to her. But rather than Amanda seeing that someone wants better for her, which is like what Sierra does, instead what she's getting is a little treat of male validation every time Kyle does something shitty. And in return, Wes gets to look like a hero on screen. So she doesn't see that Wes is essentially enabling Kyle. Like essentially that's what it is. And that he is not actually trying to help her. Coco: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Ashby: ⁓ value herself and advocate for herself and letting things fall apart that need to fall apart. That is very critical. He's coming in like a fixer and smoothing things over. And he's not actually really willing to risk any conflict with Kyle. Whereas Sierra is. Sierra is willing to tell Kyle where to go, you know? And that is a true person that's like, I'm not enabling this. I'm not smoothing things over for you. I'm not here to like. Coco: Yeah, and it happens for years! Ashby: pick up the pieces when he's shitty and sort of validate you in your victimhood. She's trying to validate her from a place of empowerment, but she doesn't see that. Instead she just sees she's getting positive attention from West who feels sorry for her. And that is wrong. Coco: is that like the path of supporting someone that Sierra takes is so real and deep and it does demand something of the person receiving that support. It demands growth. It demands taking a risk and that in West is like come into my arms. Amanda, I mean by their display on these reunions it's like Ashby: Yes. Thanks for me. Mm-hmm. It does dim you're so right, so well said. Yes. Yeah. Coco: Amanda girl, I'm mad at you. I have a tiny bit of like worry for her. Like there's something seems wrong. I don't know. Something seems wrong, but it's like you're never going to grow and you're never going to have a better life unless you go take your own steps independently. you, Kyle didn't give you your house in the suburbs where you could drink your Corona's in the backyard. Like Paige said, um, Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: West isn't gonna ever give you that, like. Ashby: No, but I don't think she thought he was. I don't think she was thinking that far ahead. I don't think she was trying to like replace Kyle with a new husband that would actually in a way, it's like self-destructive behavior. Like what she was doing was I think she was she was just trying to be a cool girl again. She was falling back on on she was just repeating the same patterns. We saw that with how she got together with Kyle. And I think she just thought she could. Coco: No, I don't. Ashby: you know, be the cool girl that he saved, and that and that they have this sort of trauma-bonding experience of being on reality TV together. And frankly, they kind of have a shared enemy in Sierra. And I don't mean it th they shouldn't conceive her as an enemy, but I really think like either consciously or subconsciously, they think of her as someone who threatens their image that I think Coco: ⁓ huh. I know. Yeah. Ashby: Amanda's a little bit jealous of Sierra for a lot of reasons that she stands up for herself, that she's like single because she's waiting for the right person, that she advocates for herself, and that she's gorgeous. Yeah. And you even see that. ⁓ my God, going back and watching that clip where they announce, where they announce ⁓ at the dinner table that Sierra bought the house, watching Amanda turn like turn that in on herself and make a little self-deprecating joke of it's very telling. Like Coco: that she bought this house? That's Sierra Botta. It's very telling. Ashby: Again, female friendships are complicated. There are dynamics of like jealousy, but you're supposed to grow from them. You're supposed to notice that in yourself and like work through that and overcome those things because a lot of that's internalized misogyny. A lot of that is like girl fighting, thinking that only one girl can be successful at a time. You have to learn to notice those patterns and like overcome them and like deepen your relationships. But Amanda doesn't do that. She just retreats into Coco: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ashby: This like very insecure place. Like that's all I get. Coco: And it's like, Sierra is younger than Amanda. ⁓ And I think what we saw from Sierra over the five years that she's been on the show is tremendous emotional growth, ⁓ becoming an adult, right? Really taking your life seriously. And I think that in and of itself is threatening to people like West and Amanda. that demands, when the people around you are rising, in terms of being more solid, grounded individuals, Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: that produces a little like, ⁓ I should look at my own life and then hopefully like go take good actions, but. Ashby: I know you really get like Peter Pan syndrome from West. And I a little bit I think maybe the kind of place that people were at in their lives on this show, I think it's kind of putting a lot of pressure on them because it's clear that, you know, Lindsay has a kid, like Carl's a business owner, like they're moving to a different stage in their life. And I Coco: Yeah. Uh-huh. Kyle's got his residency in Vegas. ⁓ Ashby: There's that, you know, there's also that. But like but like Amanda and West, what do they have if they don't have Summer House? Like it's a little bit, ugh, I don't know if they can really stand on their on their feet a little bit. Like they maybe need it a little bit more. And so people like Sierra making moves to have her own life outside of the show. And I think that might have been like a little last ditch effort on their part to kind of cling to each other in a way. ⁓ so yeah, I feel big sigh. ⁓ the main thing I took away from that is ⁓ I'm not defending Amanda. She's wrong, but I feel a lot of pity for her because I f 'cause 'cause pity is not like empathy or sympathy. Pity is like is like Coco: Mm-hmm. was thinking of the word pity myself today. I was like, it's not empathy. Ashby: truly from a place of like, ⁓ girl, get your shit together. It's it's really it's not come it's not like I I I obviously try to see the humanity in everybody, but really it's more it's more that that I don't feel sorry for her, but I do pity her. Like she has not grown. Here is a person that I think you nailed it when you said she's grown up like a rich girl in New Jersey that's a little bit of a princess. And I really think she's just looking for someone to save her. Coco: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ashby: And she thought it would be Kyle and Kyle would offer her an identity. Kyle would offer her validation and you know, like let her be ⁓ honestly like a real housewife. And I think she was kind of like leaning that way. And then he didn't, and instead it was the opposite. She was kind of being humiliated on TV. And then here comes Wes offering validation. And it seems like that's the only thing she really values. Coco: ⁓ huh. Mm-hmm. Ashby: ⁓ and then I there's sometimes when I watch the scenes where Sierra is supporting Amanda, where you can almost see that Amanda's like uncomfortable. Like I almost I almost feel like I see Amanda feeling maybe, maybe she feels so insecure that she feels like she doesn't deserve it, or there's just something threatening about someone advocating I I think Amanda doesn't want to stand on her own defeat. Then there's there's something about Sierra coming to it from a place of like, Girl, you deserve better. And also you could give yourself a really nice life. And Amanda, you can kind of see like g resist that. I don't really think she wants that. Coco: know how to put it, but I know what you mean. And I think there are scenes in the, again, the back half of the season where sometimes it feels like Amanda's like, I need to get this on camera. Like, and then Sierra's responding with like real openness, like a real, vulnerability is maybe the wrong word. But I think Amanda doesn't really even want to be fully seen by like her friend, Sierra, that there's a thing that's like, I want you to support me, but also like I'm protecting this part. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Cause I don't think she could I think she feels like she can't be honest with Sierra about how much she really just does want a knight in shining armor. Because Sierra's been very like, you know, Sierra and Mia are both like, you know, we center ourselves, we take care of ourselves and we wait for the right person. And I think Amanda's kind of like, I I'm good to have like a slightly shitty husband. Coco: So this was my sister was telling me, my sister was telling me about a thing she had seen on threads. And that's where we're at right now. But it was a really good read, which was that like, probably Amanda is much younger than Kyle. When she meets Kyle, Kyle's like, I'm an entrepreneur. I work all the time. I think she sees Kyle as being someone who's gonna be really successful as a businessman. And then yes, when he's a drunk asshole becomes a DJ, that's a humiliation. That's like, didn't get. Ashby: Okay. This is our podcast. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: the picture that I wanted. ⁓ And I think that's correct. I mean, just, it's what you said, just ⁓ different words, I guess, but yeah. Ashby: Yeah. Yeah, I think she wanted to be Real Housewives of New Jersey, where you don't get the idea that you don't get the idea that the men are like amazing, but you don't think they're terrible. Like they they do a couple things. They yes, but I'm t I mean in terms of their relationship with their spouse. Like I Coco: Some of them have gone to prison. Yeah, and I don't think Kyle's gonna go to prison, you know? Ashby: No. One thing we can say for him is I don't think he's gonna go to prison. But I think Amanda, I do think there's a level of ⁓ imperfection that Amanda kind of expects to endure from a husband. I actually think the kind of suffering wife drinking her coronas in the backyard, I think there's a level of that that she she has a pretty low bar, I think. But she wants at least for that person to really love her and respect like really love her and like lavish her with attention and center her and make make her, you know, his princess. But but I think there's a level of bad behavior that she would be willing to put up with 'cause she doesn't have such a high bar. Is yeah. Coco: Yeah. Season is different because we know Amanda is planning to leave Kyle. Like we, you know, you can see that she's doing it on camera on purpose, which is great. We needed this relationship to end, but I'm just thinking back and I'm like, it was reality TV. I couldn't wait for this relationship to end. But also there's a level of like enabling that's going on with the cast, which is like, actually Amanda playing this role of like, ⁓ my, can you believe my husband's terrible yet again? Is like. Ashby: Yes, there's so much enabling. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Coco: Actually, like, I would be like, I don't really want any more of this. I don't really want to be a part of this anymore. I don't want to be a part of your toxic bullshit. Ashby: That's exactly right. That is exactly right. Again, please go read books about codependency because that is what happens. You there's a fine line between supporting someone and rewarding their victimhood. And that is that is the difference between West support and Sierra support. And I think she was actively turning away from Sierra support because it would require her to stand on her own two feet. Yeah. And and Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: It's true that like with toxic and abusive dynamics, that becomes the only thing you know and it feels more comfortable to her. I actually think she would be more comfortable in I think Sierra said it best, in a relationship with a guy who's a little bit noncommittal. That's what she knows. Yes, she knows what that feels like. She knows how to keep her mouth shut and try to win him over subtly. She she tries to be that way because that's what she's done. Coco: That was that final read. ⁓ Ashby: But imagine Amanda like leaving this divorce, actually spending some time on her own, and then trying to like date someone who would really center her. I kind of think she would be deeply uncomfortable. I think she would say that guy's like a simp. I think she would say that he's like just nice. Coco: mean, and we have this again, Mia, Mia is my fucking queen. I love Mia. Mia is so gorgeous and so effervescent, just like, and just she's so smart. Like just every little, every little word she uses like has kind of sometimes like two meanings. But when she was like talking about breaking up with her boyfriend was like, yeah, I just want to spend some time with myself. just. Ashby: I just want to show about her. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Coco: So pointed, I mean like this is the way you do it when you leave a long-term relationship. You go spend some time with yourself, learn what you want, have high expectations for the people who you're with. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and you don't get into a sunk cost fallacy. Like Mia had spent a lot of time with that guy. She they had a contract, but it wasn't working out. And even in a time of like vulnerability and grief for her, she still was like, I don't I this isn't meeting my standards. And so but again, I I also don't want to be I don't want to lean to like girl boss because I do think it's okay to just say some people Coco: See ya. Ashby: They know about themselves that they wanna be in a relationship and they don't actually pine for the single life. I don't think there's a mandatory amount of time that a person has to spend single to like 'cause I think every person's a little bit different. You know, if there are you know, I Coco: And I, well, we wouldn't care if Amanda just had some rebound flings. We wouldn't care. It's the fact that she did it with the worst possible person she could do it that fucked over her real good friend. Ashby: Exactly. The worst possible person. But Amanda again, Amanda's whole identity has been Kyle's long suffering wife. So who else sees that but West? If there was another guy out there, some random guy, somebody that somebody introduced her to, she has to compete with that with her regular personality. She can't bring her identity as victim into that. She has to she has to actually try to connect with people on a real human level. But I think her reality with like her Coco: I know. Ashby: Character on the show in relationship to Kyle has fused. And she doesn't know how to like relate to a guy honestly and vulnerably. But Wes is still Wes is still in the mix. See, Wes knows Wes can feel bad for her. And that's but a regular person that doesn't know all this history, they're not gonna come to it from that perspective. That's not as so she'd have to be like, what kind of things do you like to do on the weekend? And I just don't think she's got that in her. Coco: Yeah. It's like, I think what maybe we were hoping for from the energy of the reunion, and again, we don't, there's still two more parts to go. My heart might explode, ⁓ is a, like having seen the internet, is like taking in some of this stuff and kind of like having a little bit of a wake up call moment, maybe? Like, okay, you engage in this bad behavior, but can you learn? We're saying like at the beginning, we're saying West can't. We have no expectations of. Ashby: Mm. Mm-hmm. Right. ⁓ no. Coco: emotional growth there. But ⁓ and we can trust it even if he did because he manipulates people by being like the nice guy. But ⁓ Amanda, I think we thought, well, maybe you we've watched you for 10 years. We have liked you like a lot of us have liked you. And I'm saying this to you who has not watched the show, but you know everything. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Watched okay. I have not sat down and serially watched every single episode, but I have consumed a lot of the show. Coco: Yeah. I know. So it's like think what we're seeing here is this blankness, in this eye rolling, in this telling Sierra to fuck off. Are you kidding me? ⁓ At least be aware that the audience is on Sierra's side, you dumb lady. I'm sorry. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Unbelievable. That's the thing. The d I mean, really like at West West and Kyle clearly got the memo. Don't speak when they're speaking because the it will look very bad on you. But no, Amanda just came out guns blazing like that and I was like, okay, she wants to die. She in that case, she wants to absolutely be humiliated if she wants to do that. Anyway, go ahead. Coco: The self-destructiveness is crazy! Yeah. No, no, no. mean, just saying. think we're seeing that like we're not. And now they're like in Italy together. Like it's very ostentatious. the going, the doing the baseball game kind of photo op almost intentionally the same day that Sierra's like feature magazine article and photos had all dropped. It's just like a really, like I was, I'm like, What are you gonna do, Amanda? Are you gonna like grift to the right? Like, don't know where is there an audience that will receive you because we're so angry unless you display something of going, checking yourself into a place and getting real help. I don't know. Ashby: Yeah. Amanda has it's very crazy, but Amanda's doubled down. She's like she's crazily doubled down on this whole thing. And I get really like impetuous teenager from it of like, Daddy, I love him. Do you know what I mean? Coco: Yeah! ⁓ my God, yeah, it's a little like Taylor Swift in the not good way. Ashby: Mm-hmm. In the not good way. In the pursuing someone that doesn't really want her, but insisting that it's this romance. Yeah, I Coco: I'm kind of like insisting like I'm the white pretty princess. Like that's what's really, that's what we're all, it's really hard. You cannot talk about this without talking about race. Like it is just, it is, a lot of this is subconscious. So I don't think we're ever gonna have someone admitting to something, but it's like, you thought you were entitled. You just thought you got the story you wanted and you did not see that like, Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yes. Coco: Sierra's the heroine of this show. Ashby: Mm-hmm. No, that's the thing is that it's delusional. It's that it's that she's come out I think in her twisted mind, she's got this idea that people there might be some corner of the internet rooting for her that's like, good for her, not caring and like just messing around with a Coco: Yeah. What's the big deal? They dated two years ago. Ashby: Or or or any or even people being like you go girl of like look at her just having fun and like flirting with people and not really caring if it goes anywhere and how how great that or our kind of a rom com storyline of like friends to lovers, my favorite trope. ⁓ Coco: Yeah, the rom-coms are bad guys. Rom-coms can be fun to watch, the actual, if it happens in real life, it's so crazy and toxic and creepy. Ashby: Rom coms are bad. Toxic. But I I think you're right in that she's kind of absorbing a very white main character energy where she's like, but I'm the main character. I'm Kate Hudson. Aren't you guys rooting for ⁓ aren't you guys rooting for like my ⁓ friend to lover thing? But that is dismissing Sierra. She actually thinks Sierra is supporting Cass, that she's the helpful best friend. Coco: Yeah. Yes! Ashby: And she's like bought in way too hard where she's like, isn't it because it is such a like Mark Ruffalo rom com, right? Where you're with the you're with the hot No, no, I know. But like the the rom com is the the beautiful ⁓ white girl with the Baxter, which we learned the there she has Coco: but we, Mark Ruffalo's perfect. Yeah. Uh huh. Yes, check out the episode on the materialist, or just materialist. Ashby: The beautiful, nice white girl with Baxter, who she bends over backwards for, but who she's not meant to be with. And then her best friend that shows up all the time as the shoulder to cry on. And ⁓ she Yeah, who like, you know, he just hasn't settled down yet. But it's just because he hasn't found the right one. And then Sierra is her the one token black character who's supposed to come over and offer her tissues and be like, Girl, you don't need no man. Like honestly, stereotypical. Coco: ⁓ my god. Who's a little bit scruffier? Ashby: And then, you know, her savior is that ⁓ the best friend Mark Rufalo runs through the airport at the end and says it's always been you, and ⁓ the Baxter has to fuck off and Sierra's supposed to clap. But she's discounting the what are they relationships on the show. The Baxter is actually friends with the fuck boy. That the friend to lover dynamic can't work because that's the ex. Coco: Yeah, these are archetypes, but they're not real people. The real people are so much more enmeshed with all of these other people. I am, to quote another iconic Bravo line, I'm shaking, I'm physically shaking. I'm physically shaking right now. My body has been hijacked by a summer house. Someone send help. Ashby: They're not real people. Yeah, I she just she's doubled down. She's so confused. She doesn't she kind of but look, a person a person that's so invested in these fake identities, instead of looking at the real relationships in front of them and wanting to preserve them, regardless of how she looks on Instagram, regardless of how she looks on the show, you have to picture yourself in like 10 years when you're less relevant to the public. And like, who do you want around you? She's not thinking that way. She's only sort of like, Desperately backed into a corner scrapping for scraps. Coco: Well, and what we kind of learned from the reunion is that like, Amanda doesn't really have girlfriends. They were kind of like, you have one friend named Katie DeLuca who's in the city. And Sierra was like, I'm inviting you to stuff. I do think there's something very funny about like, Amanda like never leaving the house. Like that being an archetype, I mean, they were called bedbugs for a reason. Like never wanting to leave Kyle being upset that Amanda never wants to go out with him. And then like her just fucking partying all over New York City with West when Ashby: No, she doesn't. Yeah. Well here. Mm-hmm. Coco: Sierra had also invited her to stuff and it is just very like sad. It's sad in the way that it's like, I think for women, sometimes hard to watch where you're like, we don't want you to choose the guy over the girls. We want you to choose your real female friendship. Ashby: Mm-hmm. But she did That's what I mean about pitying her and but not necessarily feeling sorry for her because Coco: Yeah, mean, pity, part of pity is being pathetic. Like, I think that's fine. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ashby: That's what I'm trying to say. Because okay, I do I do understand the resistance. And the resistance is when you quote go out with your girlfriends, if you're a very invested in a relationship type girl, you know, or where male validation is all that matters to you, what you really mean is you want to go out to see and be seen. And I'm sorry, but Amanda's not main character if she's going out with Mia and Sierra. Coco: Mm-hmm. Right. you Ashby: So if she's over at Sierra's ex's house and he's like making her a drink and flirting with her, that's what she wanted to get out of going out anyway, was male validation. And she's not gonna get it if Sierra and Mia are there because she's not as invested in that relationship. She wants she only wants to go out if it's and she wanted to be seen on Instagram because she was breadcrumbing everyone. She wanted to be seen going out and getting attention from Wes and West friends. Coco: I really hope parts two and three we get into Instagram. Ashby: She wanted to be seen, but she only wanted to be seen in as much as it meant that some guy was validating her. And Mia and Sierra are not motivated by that. They want to go out to have fun together with their friends. And and I don't think yeah. Coco: Yeah! And you know what is fun about hanging out with your female friends, getting together? It's like laughing. It is like riffing with people. It is talking about real serious things. It's talking about the experiences that you have. It's being like honest and like building something in those conversations. Like, and I just, that's probably terrifying too. Like it does demand something of you, but. ⁓ Ashby: Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But that's what I mean about feeling sorry for her is because there have definitely been times where, you know, in a post-breakup thing or where I remember when I was dating and just absolutely striking out, going on these dates and just either not connecting with the person or really liking them and them not liking me and just taking that really hard to my self-esteem. There were times where I would go out and feel sort of like I wasn't able to focus on my female friendships, ⁓ or just haven't being in the moment because I really was. Coco: Yeah, it's sad. Yeah. Yeah. Ashby: hurting from the lack of validation and kind of could feel myself trying to kind of preen or be seen instead of actually enjoy myself. And the thing is that sucks, but that's a part of being human. It's the pain of getting over a breakup, but you get over it and you push through it. Yes, you recognize in yourself, okay, I'm being a little bit self centered right now. I'm I'm thirsting after male validation. Coco: Mm-hmm. And you kind of grow out of it to a large extent. Yeah. Ashby: And I'm missing out on my very good relationships that I have right now. And you pull yourself out of it and you focus. And also you go to therapy. And so much therapy. So but I think she thought I think Amanda thought she was getting a double whammy that Kyle would be jealous that she was out with fuck boy West. That she's willing to tolerate fuck boyness from West, but not from him. And like she's Coco: So much therapy. You journal. You like, you do a meditation. You take care of yourself. Ashby: fucking around on him with his friend. Like I think she thought she was getting every little element of this story somehow where everyone was gonna root for her. And it just crashed and burned. And it's really too bad because she really was set up to like truly launch herself and like be a real solid person, have a career and a relevance after the show. And she fucking burned it all down over this. Coco: Yeah, it's really self-destructive. Like, it doesn't make sense. Like, that's what has been so captivating about this whole saga, watching the show and consuming the discourse. Like, it has been, like, baffling because it's, human behavior that you do see in the world, but it also is human behavior that doesn't quite make sense. That you're like, I... Ashby: Over this streetwear boy. Mm-hmm. Coco: It's, I'm, I can't stop thinking about it because you're like, I both see how these people behave this way. And also it's like truly like, as Sierra said, why? Ashby: But why? Yeah and Coco: Also, Amanda could have had someone hotter than West. I know that's not really the point. Ashby: No, no, no. You don't understand. Amanda doesn't want someone hotter than West. West, West is the perfect amount of ogre attractiveness that she's looking for. She wants to be the beautiful princess that's with the guy that ⁓ can't believe how lucky he is. And unfortunately, she was with K Kyle for so long, who is a male blonde. Adult male blonde. And she she doesn't want that. She wants a guy that's a little bit scruffy looking, like a little, maybe like Coco: ⁓ yeah. Adult male blonde. Shout out to Jody Walker. Ashby: I don't know, like a contractor from New Jersey. You know, a guy that is like he can't believe that he's with her because she's so beautiful. She doesn't want someone who people are like, ⁓ I don't care about your skincare routine. Tell me about his Coco: I really, really, in theory we get to it in the reunion that Andy does ask Kyle about his skincare. Ashby: He's just gonna say, like everybody says, you know what he's gonna say? He's just like, Well, you know, I just try to eat right and drink a lot of water. But we know that ain't true. Coco: I he does. I bet he does eat, right? And except for when he's at the summer house and he's had like 12 drinks and then he eats a bag of tortilla chips, which honestly, nothing's more relatable than that. Ashby: So okay, and then one of the best comments I saw was imagine blowing up your best friendship and with your and mucking with your husband with your ex husband's friend and then that man not not speaking up for you one time. Coco: And we know from the trailers from this that at some point Amanda gets up and leaves the stage. I imagine this is going to be like part two opening based off of how this part one ended. and then Wes doesn't get up to follow her. And I think it's like Sierra and Lindsay are like, Wes go follow her. And he doesn't. And it's like amazing. It's amazing. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. But that's again, Amanda is confused and she is acting from a place of rom coms are real where she's sort of saying, You I thought we all understood that the male relationship is primary and we ditched our friends to hang out with men who validated us because that could be the one true romance, right? Like so it's I think just the reality is not clocking to her. Coco: It's also funny because it's like she is a person who has consumed social media content about Summerhouse. She references it in this season talking about everyone's telling me I should get divorced online. That's clicked for me. Well, people also say what they have loved about Summerhouse is the female friendships. Like, so even even if you're a callous person, like this is you don't understand what the audience wants from you. You have misunderstood, but you're also receiving cultural messages that like male validation. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: Having a partner, romance, is the most important thing of all time. Ashby: I'm kind of also getting from her that she wants to get pregnant pretty soon. Like she's probably sort of like, Okay, I've sunk ten years into this guy and if I want my, you know, house in the suburbs arc, I need to like quickly find the next guy, you know? ⁓ Coco: Yeah. What I would have loved to have seen was Amanda freezing her eggs and talking about that journey. I would have loved to watch that. And I do, I do like hope somehow she gets a little bit better. I know I'm talking about her like there's something really wrong, but she is very like frail looking. And I don't mean that in like like let's protect the little. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Not in a body shamey way. Yeah, yeah. Coco: No, it does seem like an anxiety response to some extent. And I'm like, I hope she's okay. I hope she gets some help. Ashby: She does seem to be mostly cornea. She does seem to be mostly large eyeball. ⁓ but yeah, I I'm sorry that we've spent so much time. It's just that Sierra doesn't need us to speak for her. And it's just trying to plumb the depths of like, why would why would this like why would this white girl that we were rooting for, why would she blow everything up so hard? It's like trying to get in her mindset because I think maybe she's the person we can most relate to from where we're. Coco: Yeah. Ashby: add in our life and just be like, here's a cautionary tale about if we had done a few things differently, that could have been us. And and like I think it's like I think that's kind of why so many women are watching this just like, girl, no, you did it wrong. You made a huge misstep. Coco: Yeah. just think that it's something... Like going back to the friendship of it all, it's like, think sometimes we only have these, we've been talking about what narratives do we culturally have for women that they, it's like we want to see them fall in love and get married and have a baby. And then we don't really have a lot of other narratives. And I think that like life continues. What is so valuable about life is friendship. It doesn't have to just be female friendship, but it is friendship. Like they say that like, Ashby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: having friendships is like one of the biggest indicators of longevity in your life. it really is the having, personally, having relationships with people that span a decade, that span decades, it's like you are all building a story together and that is like what is the story of your life. It's like how you are in your relationships with other people. And I just, it's really, ⁓ I think that's something that like Mia and Sierra clearly understand. Like, and it's just, Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Coco: It's disappointing to see this cautionary tale, I suppose. Ashby: And another thing is just that in a way Sierra and Mia have had to understand it. They've had to carve out paths and stories for themselves from a culture that in a lot of ways either erases people that look like them or stereotypes people that look like them. But Amanda, I think, hasn't had to had to like develop her own personality. She's kind of like the tall guy. Coco: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Uh huh. Uh huh. Ashby: She's kind of like the one tall guy in grad school. She thought she would just skate by on that. And instead of actually forming real relationships and doing growth. ⁓ and so yeah, I don't think she's really been tested in the way that she thought. ⁓ and so now this is where the rubber meets the road. I do think it was childish of them to run off to Italy. I can understand wanting to get away, but they shouldn't have gone together. She should have said, you know what, this is this whole thing has been toxic and shitty. I'm gonna go. Coco: ⁓ noooo Yeah. Ashby: on a trip and gone by herself somewhere or her and Katie DeLuca go somewhere or she should have gone to rehab or something. But seriously, but for her to go with West and it's also kind of giving that like what one second. Can you could you hear that? No. Coco: Mm-hmm. Go hang out with your parents! I did hear, is that a cat sound? No, the biggest cat. Tell him, tell him not to don't try to eat anything out of the sink. Ashby: The biggest cat of all. Okay, okay. ⁓ no no no no he's ⁓ he is he's being a good cat dad. He's feeding her lunch. Go hit go hit the button. She's coming. Bye, Slami. Okay. I'll hit a marker right there. ⁓ yes, ⁓ they should not have gone together. She should have gone on a trip by herself or something, but it's kind of giving that like West is persona non grata now. He may have actually blown up enough of his his ⁓ reputation that I don't think a lot of people want to hang out with him. Coco: That's very funny. Yeah, but West has a sports podcast with, ⁓ again, a MAGA female athlete. ⁓ And I do think that West has been doing brand partnerships. West has been putting stuff out on Instagram. I mean, he's going to keep pushing through. And he probably will be fine. He will be fine, because he's a man, and he'll be fine. Yeah. Ashby: ⁓ yeah. I I kind of disagree. I think he's I think he's fucked up. Like he doesn't have I think nobody on Bravo wants to hang out with him. And that was where he messed up. Because ⁓ my god, he made Jesse cry. People people are not gonna like that. Coco: ⁓ Jessie crying? Carl wasn't crying, Jessie was crying. Ashby: Yeah. Yeah. I mean and KJ was crying. He was like, he's not my friend anymore. Like he hurt he really hurt people and it doesn't seem like that's sinking in for him at all. The only reason we can say so much about Amanda is that she spoke more or she made sounds with her mouth more. Yeah, her she was more ex we'll say that Amanda was more expressive. ⁓ Coco: Yeah. ⁓ yeah, we, and she, her eyes spoke. Well, she got a lot of closeups. Ashby: I that's another thing I saw people say is they had so much time to prepare for this that what the fuck? She seems really unprepared. Like she's just I I was actually really shocked that they didn't try harder to prep. Mm-hmm. Coco: And the defensiveness is like, our friend who hosted the watch party does have some experience in like PR and media and was like, why are they not media trained? Ashby: Mm-hmm. Their their media training was like severely lacking. And it also kind of came out in the statement where people online were like, what the fuck is this? Nobody consulted their PR people. And I thought the reason it was so delayed is that they were consulting their PR people. Apparently not. Apparently not. Even though allegedly Amanda turns her ⁓ location sharing on for her ⁓ management team. Coco: ⁓ huh. I did. Okay. I know maybe you're like, we should move on. I'm sorry if I'm going back to things. ⁓ But the whole concept of Amanda and Wes thinking, ⁓ we'll just have this timeline that will absolve us and that people will understand. And people will say, ⁓ I too have had a romantic fling with the quote unquote wrong person. But Ashby: U ⁓ Coco: The whole idea that they're like, when was your first kiss? It was like this day after, which has been like well-documented and discussed online, which it was this day where West went to brunch with all the guys, including Kyle. And then Amanda showed up at that brunch and like kissed Kyle really intensely, performatively in a way that's weird. Now we know they were separated at that time. And then later West and Amanda had their first kiss and that like they thought. Ashby: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. ⁓ yeah. Coco: in their head that this would somehow be a good story. Ashby: Should have just again. Coco: Like if you're lying already, come up with a better story. Ashby: Like ⁓ God, yes, that would have been an easy thing to just not share. But it's clear now looking Coco: Well, Andy did ask them and I had props to Andy for just turning and asking a question that would make me evaporate. Ashby: But also that just goes to show you that I kind of I suspect they were flirty before that and Amanda was kissing Kyle to kind of like do a thing to West. Coco: Well, as Lindsay said on Watch What Happens Live at one point about them performatively kissing that Bailey had brought up, she was like, I wish I could get it exactly right. But when Lindsay says. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Maybe we'll drop the clip in. I'll put a marked clip. Coco: And she's like, she's like using your husband to cover your boyfriend wild and just the way she says wild. mean, Hubbard never leave my screen. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Wild. Perfect. Yeah, she's actually so, so fantastic. ⁓ yeah, I ⁓ Wes didn't s say hardly anything. And what he did say was again, and I said this at the watch party, it's like he thinks this is a deposition and not like an opportunity to actually apologize to your friends. ⁓ so that Sierra is like talking to him about this and he's like, So, so ⁓ so I was trying to like not fuck you because Like before people got mad at me. So I was like intentionally trying to not fuck you. And it's like, Are you insane? Do you not know what this is about? ⁓ he wow. He Nobody cares. Mm-hmm. Coco: Well, Lindsay did say this, that like, isn't it more intimate? If you're spending the night with someone and you're not having sex, it's more intimate. What are you holding each other on? Ashby: That's way more intimate. Yeah. I did kind of wonder I think you said this about someone else, but ⁓ I think when we were talking about David Harbour and and also maybe when we were a little bit when we were talking about ⁓ a hum, but like it's kind of giving sex addiction. Coco: Mm-hmm. It's not... Yeah. Ashby: It's a it's it's certainly some kind of like it's certainly some kind of like compulsion of his to like sort of acquire girls and not and like really importantly like not connect with them in some way. And like he keeps focusing on that. Like that's all that matters. And he's confused because again, the society does not value a hookup at all. Coco: Yeah. Ashby: So why is he pinning everything on that? Like, we don't care. It's more about how you treat that person. Coco: Like in the show, in the end of, towards the end of Summer House, we see Ciara have this truly tearful conversation with West after she had set a boundary that was like, maybe we just shouldn't be friends, like, and it will be fun, like, let's just not be friends. And he pushes through that boundary and like forces her to basically be friends and they have this tearful emotional conversation and then he's holding her. Like, it's so… Ashby: Mm-hmm. Okay. Coco: You're like, that is more intimate, bro, than whether you fucked or not. ⁓ Yeah. Ashby: Mm-hmm. But he is just like weirdly so focused on that. I don't know. Maybe it's a maybe it's a quantity over quality thing. Maybe he thinks that if he has sex with like twenty girls, that that's the same as like holding hands with one. I I don't know. He has some very strange relationship with these two things. But yeah. Coco: I do appreciate that people, know, talking, comparing it, that maybe in Amanda's subconscious or imagination, this is more of like a rom-com, but I do like that people on the internet have done the still of West and Amanda's and then split-screened it with the end of The Graduate, where these two people run away together and then just have to sit with their choice. Ashby: Ha ha ha Mm-hmm. Yeah. And ⁓ God, yeah, he's he he's really stepped in it. I I think he may have painted himself into a corner here. And I'm a little bit concerned that he is so committed to the act that he might keep going and like try to turn this into something with Amanda. And honestly, maybe because not that many other people will have him right now. And Coco: The discourse has been art, is all. Ashby: This keeps eyeballs on him. Like as long as they're fucking around, people are sort of hate following them. But if they go their separate ways. Exactly. But if they go their separate ways and like Jesse won't hang out with him, KJ won't hang out with him. Like no one wants to watch him hang out with Randos so much. So I kind of feel like now he's using Amanda until the clout wears out. And that's a little bit it's a little bit sad for everyone because it just means that. Coco: I do watch all their stories. Mm-hmm. Ashby: This thing that should have ended a long time ago is just gonna keep going. And then like Amanda's gonna be even more invested in it. So it's a mess. Coco: Before we move on, I want to say one thing, and then you can cut this out if you don't feel it's good to include. I have loved watching KJ. I think KJ is just, has been a light on the show. I have loved watching his relationships with Mia and Ziera. But hearing about what happened with him after the show ended did make me feel really worried for him. Ashby: Mm-mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Coco: around being on reality TV. I think we see someone like Lindsay, who has the stomach for it in a way, ⁓ and the strength. And when I see KJ, I really see someone who has like an open heart that's like, I fear for him in this public light situation. ⁓ And I do also think that him sharing that he has a borderline diagnosis or BPD diagnosis was really wonderful. That's a diagnosis that's usually associated with women and then spoken about in a really toxic way, as if those people are evil and dangerous and you should steer clear of them. And I have learned some things about BPD in the past. And I think it really sounds like hell to live with if you aren't receiving help. And I think seeing him just be such a wonderful person Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: who is sensitive, who is perceptive, who is affected by these things that other people do, has been really positive representation for masculinity, for how a man can handle this, how a black man can handle this, as well as what that, ⁓ I don't know if it's what you would call it, maybe disorder, what that disorder entails or what a person who has that can be like, as opposed to the stereotypes of like, Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: crazy women that you just need to avoid. So. Ashby: Yeah. Yeah, I thought that was really lovely of him to share because ⁓ it could have gone the other way. He could have decided that he didn't want to share any of that, which would have been a totally okay decision, but but that just shows real strength to be like, I'm just going to put it all out there and like let people know that this is hard. And it kind of it kind of is good for the audience to be like, ⁓ wait a minute, these are real people that this whole fame thing does affect. And Coco: Yeah. ⁓ huh. Ashby: Certainly a person with BPD, it could have manifest in any way, but a lot of a lot of what we know about mental illness is that it's just normal behavior that's ⁓ exaggerated. So it may have been that with a different lifestyle, the symptoms didn't come up for him. But under a lot of stress and pressure, that's when often a lot of these things are kind of onset for people. So Coco: Yeah. Ashby: It is something to think about that in a way some of these traits could be dormant, except that they are exacerbated when you add the stress in the microscope of reality TV. And Coco: Yeah. Ashby: If I were West I'd feel kind of guilty. Coco: His West behavior is like the exact thing that would trigger someone who has that diagnosis. There's a lot of like black and white thinking that can come up ⁓ and not trusting other people. And when someone presents themselves as something but they truly are someone else kind of in their inner core, that's almost like playing with, that's playing with fire. I don't really know what else to say about it. Ashby: Yeah. Mm. Well, and if I had been like made part of my look checking in on my friend and then I brought them into a situation that would exact exacerbate their condition, I would certainly have a really different on air conversation with them. You know, I would certainly be like, you know, I'm so sorry you went through that. I feel some responsibility for bringing you into this space. ⁓ I apologize if like my behavior like helped trigger some of this for you because it's just human suffering, you know? But nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. It was all it was all large eyes from Amanda and ⁓ pursed lips from pursed lips from West. Like he really makes emotions, he really makes expressions with his lips and she really makes hers with her eyes. And so together they're sort of one Mr. Potato Head. Coco: At least not in part one. We didn't see it. Nope. Looking down. Ashby: But but yeah, it it I am looking forward to honestly, I hope after this that West is off or maybe just sort of referenced as a guest character, but I would love to see a season that's much more focused on like me, Sierra, and KJ. I just think their dynamic is fantastic. I no no disrespect for like Bailey and ⁓ Levi. I think they're perfectly fine sort of side characters. Coco: You Yeah, me too. Yeah. Yeah. Ashby: and of course I like Dara and her interactions with KJ. Coco: And I think they may have broken up, which is sad. Yeah. We don't, we don't totally know, but that's people break up. That's okay. Ashby: ⁓ well that's but that's okay. That's okay. But they have still well, she had had ⁓ experience with West. So like we've seen that she knows how to be like cordial and reasonable to people, you know? ⁓ anyway. Coco: Huh? still like her, and also she posted something about being pro-Palestine, which you really don't get from the Bravo community, like it just happened the other day. Ashby: That is also interesting. Like, how did they handle the fact that she used to date West and then he started dating then she started dating KJ? Like what was done there? Coco: She was brought to like a singles event that was, and West kind of invited her to it. So I think that they are like just friends. I don't get the impression that there were any like lingering feelings there. And then Dara kind of was like flirting with Ben originally, and then like sort of chose KJ as like she locked in on like, I really like this guy. ⁓ But Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: Darah says in one of the confessionals that she gets, which is not that many, but she says something along the lines of like, West is great until you date him. So yeah. Ashby: Yeah. But I mean, how was the like did KJ approach West and say, Is it okay if I date Dara? Coco: No, because West invited Dara to a singles event. Like, I think it was fine. Like, I don't think there was ever any need for that. ⁓ But, yeah. Ashby: ⁓ gotcha. Okay. Okay, so it wasn't this is not the same situation, you know. Okay, okay. Coco: I don't think so. No. Yeah. And that's different. Dara wasn't written about in the New York Times. Their romance didn't play out on television and we don't know how intense it was or if it was like they were friends, they got together for a little while, broke up, more like normal dating. Ashby: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay, and then that's another thing, ⁓ which is ⁓ shit, it's gone. Coco: That's okay. Ashby: ⁓ I know what it was. I put another marker. I could do without Ben. I really could. I don't think he adds anything. I feel kind of like I don't know. I don't know what it is. Maybe this is not fair, but I feel a sort of like a void feeling when he's on screen. Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. A lot of people feel that way as like you. A lot of people don't like Ben. A lot of people feel that Ben gives like a little darker energy somewhere along the lines. I think, yeah. Ashby: Again, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe that's not fair. I'm not sure what it is, but it maybe it's the editing. I don't know. But there's just some it just feels like yeah, something is something is just off. It feels like he doesn't go with this group of people to me. But anyway, what were you gonna say? No, I I actually I actually think the Australian-ness might be the one saving grace. I think if he was like from fucking Nebraska, he'd be gone last season. Coco: Is it because he's Australian? I'm teasing. Okay, can we just go back to the funniest line when he was like, Bailey's accusing me I wanted to fuck my mate's Mrs. And then like somebody in that little group that all had a cackle about it did go fuck his mate's Mrs. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay, I do want to also ⁓ bring that part up, which is like everyone's acting like it's normal to go skinny dipping while you're married with Ben. And everyone's just blowing past that. But it's clear, it's so clear that Amanda wanted that to read as like, look how she doesn't give a fuck, and she's so like flirty and you know, I don't know what the word is, exhibitionist. Coco: Yeah. Well, well, and it's kind of like, ⁓ other people are attracted to me. It's like I need to know people are attracted to me and think I'm hot. ⁓ Ashby: Yeah. That's not normal. I don't think that's normal. Like even in a friend group, I don't think it's normal to go skinny dipping at a wedding or whatever. I I I don't know. I think it's strange. Coco: No, I mean on Summer House they have a long history of lazy skinny dipping. This wasn't at Summer House, this was in Italy at a wedding. Yeah. But I think that there's a really, like we all have friendships, especially like, you you have friends that are couples and stuff. I don't know if this is normal to say on this show. Ashby: No, this is the thing. That's why there's no reason to bring it up. It wasn't even part of the storyline. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Coco: I will get dressed sometimes and I'll be like, I love this outfit, but it's like too sexy to go hang out with my friends and I will change because it's like, I'm not trying to put that energy out in this group of people, you know? Ashby: Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would just be mortified. I would have had to be blackout drunk to be skinny dipping with anyone, you know, that wasn't like only my girlfriends or my or my husband is also there. Like, but it's bizarre for her to just sort of be so coy about it too. Like, what can I say? I just went skinny dipping with the bride and with Ben. Uh-huh. Coco: Sure, Yeah. I mean, Kyle was there, I will, it wasn't that Kyle wasn't there, but also that's like a cover. It's weird, it's always, and then she, and Amanda in the back half of the season gets mad that Ben kind of won't admit that he wanted to fuck her, quote unquote. Ashby: It's weird. Because that was the whole reason that she was willing to be public with it. But it he has a vested interest in not acting like that was anything. Because I agree with everyone. It's so transparent. He already had a girlfriend. And even though he had a girlfriend, he was still flirting with people. And I don't think he's like Coco: Yeah. Right. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, he did. So I think you can read his behavior of trying to shut down conversations through the lens of I had a girlfriend and so I don't want to get in trouble with my girlfriend. And I don't see that. I think that's like, okay, you're not being upfront with the audience and some people really care about that. I don't care so much. But I also am like, Ben, I am not invested in you and Sabrina Bell. just, like it's annoying. Like if you want to be a fun person, add something to the show. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't care so much, yeah. I don't care. Coco: that's like interesting, like that's fine, but like the whole, like I finally am ready for love. It's like, bro, you are no longer on Australian Bachelor. We just don't care. Ashby: Mm-hmm. I know. I think he thinks that that's what this is, like some subplot. I don't think he's like a fan favorite. I don't know why he keeps coming. I don't Coco: No, no, people don't really like him. I don't know if he'll be back, but I kind of don't think he makes sense there without like the Kyle and Amanda of it all because they are the ones who were friends with him. So he doesn't really make sense being in the show. Ashby: Yeah, ⁓ And I don't like, ⁓ I don't see him making an effort to have relationships with the black characters, and that bothers me. I don't see him like having chats with them. I don't know. I just kind of see him doing his own thing and like trying to make it a storyline that he's friends with Kyle and Amanda, and also that he has this girlfriend. And that seems to be the only two things we know about him. And every time Coco: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Ashby: It's kind of like not questioned, but sort of like, Why are you here? in a way. He just goes back to I'm friends with Kyle and Amanda. And that's giving a person who's at the party and constantly just wanting to talk. Coco: friends like they met at a wedding. Like, it's not real friends. But Sabrina has kind of befriended Sierra. And so Sabrina and Sierra are like posting things on social media. Really cute photo of Sierra giving the finger. Yeah. Ashby: That's what I mean. It's Yeah, it's a I actually I kind of agree with Bailey that like Sabrina's kind of erratic and fun and I actually kind of like her. I don't Coco: Sabrina's kinda fun. If she says anything, that's great for... Ashby: Yeah, like I actually kind of am fine with Sabrina. It's Sabrina and Ben together that's like kind of not hitting for me in a way. so in some ways I agree with Bailey on that. Coco: Well, they're so like agreed. there's, it's just that Sabrina and Ben have made their whole vibe that they're in love. Like it's just a little like, it's a little ick. Like everything, Sabrina Bell. And I'm like, ⁓ I don't Ashby: Mm-hmm. I don't yeah, I am getting I really feel like she's like a big purse for him. She's like a large prop. And like he's just w right, right. He's just wagging he's wagging her around like a large purse and he's like, look at my purse, look at my purse. And that's kind of gross, but like I I like that she's like a little bit silly and kind of not media trained. Coco: Yeah. For him. And she's not that, she's more. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we are liking her. Yeah. You and makes weird fashion choices. Ashby: Yeah, not media trained. And like, of course, a person like Sierra can still find a thing to connect with that person on authentically, but I'm not buying their relationship other than Ben is trying to make this his arc of like, look at me, I'm so in love. And I don't I don't even get that in his interactions with her, that he seems like he really likes her that much. Instead, what he seems to like to do is be caught on camera talking about her to Kyle. That seems to be his main Coco: Mm-hmm. Well, and it's like very different from like what we see from like KJ and Dara, which is like kind of healthy communication, like kind of cute dates like from like, so there's like, there's like, there's the another side of this, we're totally new people that we didn't know that like we can be invested in one and we're just like, really like, why are you trying to push this so hard, bro? Something's off here. It doesn't feel right. Ashby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. It feels like it feels cynical. It feels like his cynical ploy to try to supplant Kyle and Amanda as the couple on the show. And it's like I really feel like he's been pushing it really I I don't know if this is true, but I get the feeling that he's pushing it really hard and bitter when the producers don't go for it. Like every time he's on screen without it, I'm getting kind of a like, anyways, me and Sabrina are in love. So but imagine that with an Australian accent. Coco: Yeah. I guess I have like a little bit of like a, I maybe mostly feel neutral about Ben. I don't have a negative read on him other than I thought like you're pushing an arc that we don't care about, but yeah. Ashby: But that is negative, I think. I think the show should only be additive people. When you have awesome people like Mia and KJ and Sierra, I think neutral freaking duds should go because I want more screen time of the good people. Why are you Coco: Yeah. Again, this is the best like new cat like they've keep rotating these people in and out. So don't worry Ashby There's plenty of people that have been rotated in that we have forgotten about like they could have been in last season I don't remember that but they're gone Lexi who's a Lexi? We don't know Ashby: Mm-hmm. Okay. Right. But I know they're gonna We'll keep ⁓ I know they're gonna keep Sierra and I have read that if she says she doesn't want West, then he's out. Like like that's what I've read anyway, that producers are really mad at him. Coco: What could even though be, what could even be, well that is true. You don't lie to big capital B Bravo. Like that's part of where they really fucked up. It's like, did you not think you were going to get caught? Ashby: Yeah, that's the problem. Well, yeah, and that a lot of his stuff has been like shady and ⁓ it kind of fucked up their timeline. It's fucked up like they're in the city promotion. So he's actually caused a lot of like bottom dollar problems for them. So I don't think it will take much of a push for Sierra to be like And here's the other thing, it's the same thing with Ben is like I wanna see Sierra's life without West. I don't fucking care. Let her move on. Coco: Yeah. Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! I do too. I do too. Yeah. Ashby: Stop putting that there as like this annoying roadblock for her. Like just let her move on. ⁓ so anyway, that is my that's my hope. And I can't wait for parts two and three to come out. And I do want to just be like, I don't think anything we've said takes anything away from how Amanda's viewed throughout her relationship with Kyle. Again, Kyle came out of this smelling like a rose, ⁓ which is so dumb because he is Coco: Mm-hmm. Yeah! Ashby: Also, like Wes, a noncommittal fuck boy, it's just he was married to Amanda instead of in the middle of a divorce. Coco: This is, I want to see if I can like say this because I thought about it a lot. There's this end of this show, which we'll definitely get to in parts two or three of the reunion, but the end of the show, there's this dinner where Kyle explodes. And it's this dinner where Amanda's sitting there while Lindsay grills Kyle on his DJ career. And then at some point, Kyle looks at Amanda and he's kind of like, says something along the lines of like, I know what you're doing. And then like, fuck you. Ashby: Hmm. Yeah. Coco: And West at some point moves his chair to come sit next to Amanda. So Amanda is surrounded by West, ⁓ Sierra, and Lindsay. And Sierra is also in there, like kind of fighting the fight with Kyle about like, what is your plan with DJing? I think that there's a read of this where Amanda had been a good friend to Sierra, where West was just like showing up in a positive way for a woman. ⁓ Where it does seem when you watch it like, Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: that Amanda has kind of gotten these people to fight her fight for her and is like fucking with Kyle. Like to me, it looks like they're fucking with Kyle, like that she kind of wants to fuck with Kyle. She wants Kyle to explode. He has a history of exploding. We know he's gonna explode. If none of this other shit had happened and it was almost a little bit like manipulative, like we have gotten this room to pile on this guy, push him to his breaking point, show his bad behavior on camera. He has the worst season of all time. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Coco: she leaves him and gets her wonderful kind of divorcee arc, I would be like, kind of like there's a part of you that's like, you go girl. Like, yeah, let's push this man to the brink and let's watch him explode because he's responsible for his own behavior and that would be bad. But when I watch it now, knowing all these other things, there's like a part of me that I feel like a little bit, tiny bit, tiny, tiny, tiny little sesame seeds worth. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: of like empathy for Kyle, where I'm like, they were fucking with your head. It looks like they're fucking with his head. Ashby: Yeah. Yeah. I I have seen that conversation too. And I'm a little bit frustrated. You only have a sesame seed, but it's because you're picking up on something that's real, you know? But I think a lot of people Coco: Yeah, and he's still responsible for how he acts after that by calling Carl Vegisil. And he calls him six five, which is not an insult. Ashby: I am also gonna advocate that we put the actual clip in there. ⁓ yeah, I have been a little bit frustrated to see people totally reverse course and be like, ⁓ actually I feel bad for Kyle this whole time. He was being like manipulated by by this bitch nag Amanda behind the scenes, and that she was literally driving him to drink and driving him to cheat. Like people. Coco: You 100%. Yeah, fuck that. Right. Ashby: have really turned on her. And this I think comes from the like perfect victim narrative that if you can see any yeah, if you can see any any little like glimmer of a person's participation in the conflict, or if you can see a person ⁓ like feeling vengeful in any way or ⁓ they're not like totally in retreat mode, then Coco: Shout out to Mohammed Al-Kurd, which is about Palestine. Yeah. Ashby: Or if anyone displays any manipulation, then people are like, well, they're both wrong. They're both in the wrong. This is like giving a little bit, it's not the same, but like shades of ⁓ Amber Heard, Johnny Depp, she's not the perfect victim, then she's then she's not a victim at all. And the thing is, if you're in a relationship with someone who's toxic and volatile for 10 years, you know how to push their buttons. It and a lot of things that people Yeah. Coco: Right. It's good. Yeah. Yeah. Like if it was a movie and I watched a woman push the buttons to get out, finally I'd be like, you go girl. Ashby: Mm-hmm. The other thing is that a lot of people in these toxic relationships will say sometimes you pick the fight because the longer it goes without it, it's worse. So you actually try to get them to explode because it's better to have multiple small explosions than one really big one. And it's better for her if the cameras are rolling because he's much less likely to, you know, act out in a big way if he's been on camera. Coco: ⁓ Ashby: And there's a narrative that can be spun there. So she's trying to get his explosions on camera on purpose. And there can be a lot of reasons for that. It can be because his explosions are so toxic and volatile that it is extremely overwhelming to her nervous system. So she could be trying to get those out of him. And you're probably right. It is better to have people fight her battles for her because now she's got. she's got other voices on it. She looks like it's an objective reality, right? And and so I can kind of like see that, but the toxic dynamic, yeah, you're right. ⁓ she may be manipulating a little bit, but they're still in it together, and he's still responsible for how he acts. I just can never, I can never, ⁓ Coco: Yeah. Ashby: It's hard for me to like give credence to like, ⁓ well, this woman made him act this way. But that is the what I have seen people saying. Coco: Yeah, and that's it. There's not a lot of space for nuance a lot of times in like discourse around reality television. And I think that this is so nuanced. Everything that happened is so nuanced. And I think what I see in it now is like, well, Amanda, you also like she says it to Mia and Sierra. I love when you guys say things because you say what I feel. And it's like you're relying on these women to do Ashby: Mm mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Coco: your job, which is to have hard conversations with your husband and to be honest about who you are and what you want. And like even in the city, as we're seeing now, it's like she's not doing that because she's sort of softly leaving him when she's really leaving him. And it's just like, it's like, sometimes I think it's like, it's not all Kyle's fault, but I do see in Amanda, a person who's coping mechanisms are biting her in the ass. Ashby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. It's really true. You're right about coping mechanisms. She's relying on other people to fight her fights for her because I think similar to West, she's like incapable of true conflict. Like she's just not because conflict requires that you have a point of view and that you want to push your point of view. And Amanda's not really had like a strong sense of self or a strong point of view. But Sierra and Mia and Lindsay, they do have a strong sense of justice of like this is not right what you do. ⁓ but Amanda's kind of been more on vibes, which is a harder position to defend, which is like, I don't feel loved and cherished. And I think I think we talked about a little bit of Shades of Carmella before. I think there's I think there's a way they could come to an understanding about running around on her. Coco: Yes! Ashby: I don't think that that was like the crux of what she was upset about. She was upset about the humiliation that she wasn't being seen as the princess that he cherished. So having these other people come for him, it just lets her not have to actually do conflict. Because frankly, conflict is unladylike. You have to get your hands dirty. You don't look good when you're when you're yelling, when you're it it carves out more of that identity of if you raise your voice back. Coco: I agree. Yeah. Ashby: You're the bitch nag wife that caused this whole thing. So, in a way, you're right. Like, there's a way to look at this that I could have been like, that's actually really smart of her to get him on camera, but not get herself on camera reaching that same like pitch. Yeah, it's it's actually really smart of her. It's just unfortunate that we now know that that is like motivated from a place of essentially using Sierra and then just wanting val male validation from West. Coco: Pitch. Yeah. Yeah. Ashby: Like now, now we know that this is not from a sincere place of ⁓ I'm getting out of this relationship and people need to see how this man actually acts. And from a genuine learned perspective of if you're in a relationship for a long time with someone, you know how to manipulate them. And by the way, she's been in a relationship for 10 years with most of these people too. So she knows how to activate Lindsay, for example. Coco: Yeah, she has no Lindy, Lindsay and Carl for as long as she's known Kyle. ⁓ Ashby: Yeah. So so yeah, so that part's that's there. But it's that she's using it for improper ends, which again is not really about protecting her. It's more or about defending her and what she deserves. It's more about punishing Kyle for not performing ⁓ cherishing her. That's the part she's upset about. Coco: performing the king I thought I was marrying. Your, ⁓ your man-child. It's embarrassing, ⁓ Ashby: Exactly. Embarrassing. It's embarrassing to her. Yeah. If he was, I again, if he was ⁓ let's say CEO of a bank, ⁓ feel I I feel like she keeps her mouth shut. I think it's the Djang is the part of it that's that's there. So that's the thing is like we're here to defend a woman who wants to be respected, but she doesn't really want to be respected. She wants to be ⁓ vener. Coco: He could probably fuck who he wanted. Yeah. Yup. Ashby: validated and that's different. Coco: puts the like Sopranos comparison too far, right? Because Tony Soprano is a murderer. And also abusive boss. He beats up people who don't deserve it. Kyle is an abusive boss. He outed his addiction, like shit talked his addiction behavior on camera while Kyle was blacked out. Ashby: Mm. True. Well, we've already said Kyle's an abusive boss. He abused Carl and that's unforgivable. And even though he's tried to get it on record that he didn't do this, he sort of did get ⁓ Hanna fired. So ⁓ wow. Coco: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. ⁓ sure. Like his like his role in within Bravo too. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He is an abusive boss. I guess I was just thinking like, you know, you see in the Sopranos, you see these like rough patches between Tony and Carmella and then he gives her like this amazing fur coat that probably fell off the back of the truck, aka. And then they have like sex and intimacy. It's like you see it's like a kink to like get these gifts. And we see in this show that Ashby: Yeah. But not a murderer. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. She gets that watch. Coco: Kyle gives Amanda that watch and there's like a complicity to all of this. There's a participation in this relationship too. Like it is not like just that this person is a victim and we can also say that Kyle's behavior is unacceptable. like, we'll see. Kyle right now is having a good moment in the media despite all of the odds and footage, but also... Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Coco: What happens when he dates someone new? How does that relationship play out? Does he learn? Does he grow? Does he treat that woman differently? I don't think so. Yeah, I don't know. He could grow. He could grow from this experience. Ashby: Hm, I just don't know. I really don't know, but honestly Hyle seems like he also could stand to go to therapy and just because his media training is so good, I get the sense that he could learn. Like he could actually learn. Coco: He could take in the messages probably differently, but he has been held accountable and he has cried and apologized and then gone on to do the exact same thing over and over again. Ashby: Yeah. Because Mm-hmm. It's a good point. He could just be good at performing contrition. But ⁓ but yeah, you're right. Coco: He is a more genuine. He is somehow a genuine person who also has a lot of media training. And that's why I think Kyle is also just a real housewife in a male body. Ashby: So ⁓ my god, let that be the thesis. Let it be the thesis. ⁓ yeah, that's ⁓ that's the thing that I was trying to say about the toxic relationships, is that again, I don't think it's the transgression itself. It's that Amanda expects a certain cadence to how this goes and that he has to essentially pay back the debt of the humiliation and he's not doing that consistently. And so that's where you Coco: Instead he's charging her on Venmo for back rent. Ashby: Ex ⁓ my god, yes. He's so pe he is a real housewife. He is a petty bitch. Real House Kyles of New York. That's the show we want after this. ⁓ Coco: Let me be clear, I do not contribute to the mortgage. And I will never be. Ashby: ⁓ okay, here's a show that I would watch, Euro Trip, Lindsay and Kyle. Coco: you Okay, my favorite moment from the reunion is basically when Carl says that Lindsay looks good, but it's like a looks hot is what he's saying. And Kyle makes fun of Carl and I'm like, these three are real friends. Ashby: I know that's so ch They're so cute. They're really cute together. Coco: dumped Lindsay on camera just like a month before their wedding. And now here we are. Ashby: And he's saying this in front of his new like crush girl too. Coco: That feels fake to the Bailey Carl of it all. It's like we can see why they would be cute together because they're both like kind of dorks and good people. But like it doesn't feel I'm not invested in that. Romantic energy. Yeah. Ashby: not getting I'm not getting much I've heard people look, we'll take this out. I've heard people say that like Carl doesn't give a hundred percent straight energy and I can kind of root for that, to be honest. Like I I feel Coco: I I mean, I ostensibly know someone who has. Ashby: Mm, yeah. I I am like I feel like I could see that and root for that in a very different way, like him going that direction with the bar and stuff. But yeah, the manufactured thing with I'm not really seeing it. Mm-hmm. Coco: Yes. So Carl has in the past expressed interest in Sierra in a way that reads is very genuine to me. I don't always know if I to bring a different show into it. Southern hospitality. There's a really wonderful conversation that happens in southern hospitality around straight men and gay men being friends with each other. And sometimes that's slipping into sexual intimacy. ⁓ And that I think that there is just Ashby: Mm. Mm. Mm, mm-hmm. Coco: I'm not saying this about Carl specifically or anyone in general, but I think that there is so much more room for women to be on more of a spectrum, to be bisexual, to be more pansexual, whatever words we want to use. And there's just such rigidity around masculinity, around you're straight or you're gay. And I think if we had healthier understanding of sexuality where it was more of a spectrum or there was more flexibility in it, Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Coco: maybe there's room for different types of things. And in Southern Hospitality, what happens in that show is there is a sexual encounter between a gay man and a straight man, and it comes out and it takes a while. It's a little bit dramatic, but they have a conversation on camera where the straight man is like acknowledging, yeah, that there was like something that happened between us. I'm like not into you. And like... Ashby: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: everyone's fine, everyone's egos aren't intact, everyone's okay, those people are friends and they're a much younger cast. ⁓ that show has also had a lot of really great conversations around, ⁓ there's much more diversity on the show, racially as well as sexuality wise. And there's a couple of people who are black and queer and it talks about their relationships with their parents and how that has been difficult because of the respectability politics that play out in the South for really real reasons. Ashby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: And so that has been, I have a lot of like a warm spot in my heart for the people of Southern hospitality. Ashby: Maybe that's what it is, is that there is something kind of like closed off about Carl's flirtatiousness. And I do think if there was a bigger variety of people and sexualities on the show, I feel like we'd see a really different side of him. But it has always felt kind of narrow to when they've tried to show him like flirting with Bailey. I've just always felt like we're not seeing the whole picture of him. But I could see if they had like Coco: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Ashby: a variety of sexualities on the next season and had him come like for a weekend or two. It might be fun to see him flirt with different people. It might be really Coco: Like, we just, we're saying, we're not saying anything about Carl. We're saying maybe we'd want to see it. Ashby: No. I'm just saying we'd want to see it. Like if we're we're just saying we ship it, that we're we're fans, that we're writing fan fiction over here. That's all we're saying. But yes, I love that moment between him and him and Lindsay. And and yeah, again, I don't I appreciate Coco: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ashby: Okay, I liked that Sierra ended the whole thing with saying to Kyle, like, that's that's not my wife, that's your wife. That fucking hit so hard because it goes to show you Sierra can be civil and like friendly even toward Kyle, but she's not forgiven him for how he's acted. And Coco: Well, and she's not saying you can't silence me. You can't tell me what I can and can't say to Amanda. When first of all, Kyle, you've said horrible things to Amanda. Sierra's only saying what's true. Ashby: Right. Exactly. Yes. Sh and he's ⁓ you know, again, Kyle is good in the sense that he's like, You have every right to feel the way you feel, but that was a little bit harsh. I even I found that hard to hear. And she's like, I'm not here to protect your fucking feelings. You feel bad for your wife? Say something. It's like he can't do shit behind the scenes. He's not her boss. He doesn't say to her, ⁓ I want this to look a certain way, or I want to protect how this person feels or how this how this comes across. Like, if you want to say something, you say something. She's like putting it back on him that. Coco: Mm-hmm. Ashby: If he's feeling the need to defend his wife, then he should speak up. This is not on her. This is about her relationship with Amanda. ⁓ but I do think it's like funny and interesting because we don't really fucking care about Kyle and Amanda. We only care about Sierra and Amanda. I think that's so even though she's saying that in this way, that's like purportedly that's supposed to be the most significant relationship that you have, all of us are like, well, yeah, that's true. If he wants to say something in defense of his wife. Coco: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We only care about Sierra and Amanda, yes. Ashby: He should say it, but really what we care about is like, no, their true relationship there was between Amanda and Sierra. And Amanda fucked it. So she can say whatever she wants. Because Amanda cheated on Sierra with West. And ⁓ not true. And also, but my but my point is that he was sensitive to it. Coco: Uh-huh! And she's not saying anything that's like, that's not based off of her experiences with this woman. Ashby: what she said, because what she said was like she's meek and mild and she's never gonna fight to be the main character and she's gonna let this man run around on her 'cause that's what she's always done. And that was a dig at Kyle. And ki Coco: That's right. He's like, that was hard to hear. It's ostensibly out of empathy for Amanda, but it's like, Kyle, they're fucking names. Ashby: But really blah blah blah. Yeah. But it's like Kyle, really that's what he was saying was like, oof, that was a low blow to say that Amanda like put up with him running around on her for so long. But that's true. And if he felt sensitive about it, what she said has like a double meaning. It's like, that's your wife. If you feel bad about what I said, d say something. And then also, that's your wife. You're the one that did that. You're the reason we know that she's like this. So just Sierra, first of all, is brilliant. Coco: Just again, everything is so layered. This is like a novel where you're like, the characters are so well written because they are both, again, recognizable and at the same time, they don't all even know their own selves. And that's what makes them so interesting to watch. Yeah, it's been a... Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But okay, the last thing I want to say about that is just there have been those scenes that they've showed Amanda talking to Kyle and sort of breaking things off with him where Amanda's quite unemotional and Kyle is very emotional and he seems like he's taking it hard. And people have responded to that being like, Look at her, she's enjoying it. She's enjoying hurting him. And I don't care. I yeah, I first of all I don't care. Second of all, I don't Coco: Sure. Mm-hmm. That's just sexist, yeah. Ashby: I don't I don't care if that's happening in the first place. ⁓ I don't necessarily think she's enjoying it, but I don't think him crying means that he's that hurt either. Coco: There are moments where you see just the two of them and you do see like how bad their relationship has gotten, that they do have just contempt for each other and she has contempt for him. Yeah, but there's a lot of those scenes are happening when he's drunk at a party and he's trying to have a conversation and she, why would she wanna engage with that? So he can start throwing cans of stuff so that he can cry, that he can go sit in the car and make Carl come take care of him again. Like what is the- Ashby: Okay. Mm-hmm. She has contempt for him, yes, that's true. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coco: There is no point in engaging with someone who is explosive and drunk. Ashby: Yeah, and I think that Kyle ⁓ probably little this is not a fucking read at all. Everybody knows this, but he clearly drinks because he struggles to like manage his emotions. And so when she is having these conversations with him where he's sober and like she's trying to be like, I'm gonna live somewhere else for a while. I think our relationship has come to an end, and he's reacting to it emotionally. People are reading a lot into that. Like, look at the mean woman making the little blonde man cry. Yeah. Coco: adult male blonde. He is like the oldest person on the show. Ashby: And they're But recall that like that that Kyle he's vulnerable in that state because he's not comfortable in that state. And him being very effusive is not the same is not the same thing as like what like degree of hurt that he's experiencing. That's just what people see. So I don't know why when Amanda cries, nobody has the same thing to say necessarily. But like when Kyle cries, everyone's like, okay, she went too far. She went too far. And I'm not, I'm not seeing that. Like she is trying, she is a herself, she they are both contributors to a toxic relationship. And she is trying to extricate herself from it. And part of it has to do with Kyle's actions. And she is like negotiating the exit of this relationship. Kyle is taking it hard, but he has contributed to that. Probably some of the tears have to do with realizing. Coco: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ashby: that there's no saving this. And anyway, so I'm just like Coco: Yeah, I agree. there's an episode from ⁓ a little while ago where we released about two hours of just going through Kyle and Amanda's relationship. And us going through that conversation, you know, helps me keep these things in my mind, ⁓ where you saw Amanda react much more for the first seven years of their relationship to try to fight him, to try to get him to change. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Few years. Yeah. Coco: Now we don't see that anymore. Now it's resignation. Now it's disdain. Now it's just distance. It's I'm not going to give you an inch. And there's reasons that she has, reasons why she feels that way. She tried and it didn't work. He didn't change. Ashby: Contempt, yeah. She's shut down. Yeah. Yeah. But they're not, but they're both not perfect people. It doesn't make one person the victim. It doesn't mean that the last person to that you saw on screen crying is the victim. That's not how that works. They are both imperfect people that were in a toxic relationship. She is clearly an imperfect and extremely insecure person who is extricating herself from this relationship with the tools that she has. And Coco: ⁓ yeah. Mm-hmm. Ashby: That looks a certain way, you know, but I don't see that as like, ⁓ she went too far, she's enjoying twisting the knife. I'm not I'm not reading that. And even if I was reading that, I'd kind of just think it doesn't matter, you know? So I don't think that that erases all the things that Kyle has done up to this point. Coco: Yeah, that ending of Summer House where they have a really hard conversation, it's like everyone is crying in a way that like doesn't quite make sense to the audience. Like you get the impression that the show is ending forever. Like it seems that the cast didn't quite know what was gonna happen after that season. But ⁓ I thought their kind of conversation that was not the full divorce conversation, but really close to the divorce conversation was very emotional. I cried. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Coco: I wanted the relationship to end and it was sad. It was sad to see people really reckon with it ⁓ and frustrating at the same time because you hear Amanda say things to Kyle that were different from what Amanda said to Sierra and you're like, you still had Sierra do your work for you. But yeah. Ashby: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, and it's I mean, that's a strategy, is if she has Sierra say the really harsh things, then she comes behind and says a slightly less harsh thing. And Coco: She's like, I didn't even really think about it, but Sierra said it. And you're like, that's not how we saw that conversation play out. That wasn't what happened. And we don't know what happens off camera, but it seems like you're telling Sierra she can go for it and get this on camera. Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. What she did was she had Sierra set a screen, okay? A very common defensive maneuver. And then she comes behind and looks reasonable by comparison. And that is also, once again, playing into deeply racist tropes that she should not do ⁓ to her friend or to anyone on camera. So don't love that. And then but then yeah, I saw these the edits of the clips that they're previewing of the conversations in In the City where they Coco: ⁓ Ashby: Are not ⁓ living together. And then I am not loving the edit that they're giving Kyle where he looks like this buffoon who's trying to save his marriage while this manipulative woman is stepping out on him. The clips to him being like, Well, I don't know. I guess ⁓ we're gonna split up and try to save our marriage. I've never heard of anyone moving out and saving their marriage that way, but maybe she's right. Like, I don't love this post-edit that makes it look like Because Amanda has stepped out with West, which the person she hurt there was Sierra, trying to make it look like Amanda is there for this manipulative evil genius who's hurt poor innocent Kyle. ⁓ and I'm I'm not taking that. Coco: is gonna be hard because part of it is that Amanda is kind of being fake in the in the city and so we know that like that she is not doing honest behavior but also Kyle is like media savvy and he knows he's gonna have a terrible summer house edit going into filming the show so he's also trying to be more dignified in the show he's trying to redeem himself after knowing he got into a fight with Carl and called him a bad just so I'm sorry Ashby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sure, sure. Mm. Mm-hmm. And I think that's a perfect place to end it. Coco: Yeah, I think we've said we've said a lot and there will always be more to say. So. Ashby: Yep. I think that's good for today. Another time we should talk about some of the other shows that we're loving, but we just needed to really get it out how we feel about Summer House. Coco: This, it would be a weird pivot for us to start talking about something else right now. So yes. Ashby: No need, no need. We had more to say about it than we thought. But everybody stay tuned because ⁓ two and three are gonna come out and we're gonna watch ⁓ and then rewatch and then ⁓ have a lot to say. ⁓ yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Coco: I'm gonna watch all of them twice. Yes, definitely. Yeah. All right. Ashby, no one I'd rather go on this journey with. Ashby: Same. Thank you for treating me like a real fan and ⁓ and not being a gatekeeper. I'm a fan. I'm a fan of ⁓ of a drama, and these people have got the drama, that's for sure. So, okay. All right. see you next time. Bye. Coco: You are a real fan! You do! All right, toodaloo, have fun with the cats. Bye.