Latest / Identity at the Center / #253 - Chrysalis IV with Gary Rowe of TechVision Research

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#253 - Chrysalis IV with Gary Rowe of TechVision Research · Identity at the Center

0:05
This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with
0:10
IAM, this is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and
0:17
Jeff Stedman. Welcome to the Identity at the
0:22
Center podcast. I'm Jeff and that's Jim.
0:24
Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
0:27
Oh, not so bad yourself. I'm doing great.
0:29
Happy New Year, buddy. Yeah, Happy New Year. 2023 was a
0:32
great year for the podcast, but I did want to point out December
0:35
was a banner month. It sure was.
0:38
It goes against every single historical marker or trend, but
0:42
we literally had our best month ever and not even close in the
0:46
month of December. So we definitely ended 23 on a
0:49
high note. So it sets the bar that much
0:50
higher for us this year. That's good.
0:53
I mean, every year's been better than the year previous.
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And I mean really all the credit goes to our listeners, right?
0:58
I mean, we can. There's nothing about these
1:01
statistics that are because of things we're doing right.
1:04
It's the people that are are listening and and energizing us
1:09
to keep doing the show. And sharing the show with
1:12
others. It's amazing how people talk to
1:13
It's like, oh, I didn't know that that thing existed.
1:15
Yep, here we are doing our thing, 4 1/2 years later, still
1:19
figuring it out. And behind the curtains here,
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right, it's we always record the show a few days early, so
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today's our first day back to work.
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It's always hard the first day back from work, isn't it, After
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you have a long vacation? Yeah, I don't remember what
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identity and Access Management is.
1:36
I'm like, trying to figure it out.
1:36
I'm like, what is it? What's my job?
1:38
What do I do here? What do I even know?
1:40
Yeah, it was exactly in a fog for the last week or so.
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Now another behind the scenes is that we recorded next, the next
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episode in December, right? It was with Phil Windley.
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He wrote a book called Learning Digital Identity.
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It's an awesome book, Big fanboy.
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And he turned around and gave us 5 codes that people can use, our
2:04
listeners can use for downloading an ebook version of
2:10
the book. And so there's only five of
2:12
them, right? So we have to come up with a
2:15
good way to give them away. And what we came up with is that
2:19
now we've got this cool new voicemail functionality that
2:22
we've been thinking, how do we get people to call up to the
2:24
voicemail and leave a message with a question that we can then
2:30
take that question and play it on an episode and then answer
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it. So what we came up with is we'll
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take five of the questions that people leave on the voicemail
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and we'll use those during an episode that will drop on
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February 5th. And so given that, why don't you
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tell people how to leave the voicemail?
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Because I don't think that part is abundantly clear yet.
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OK, so this is relatively new. I added this to the site in
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December. I think maybe it was November.
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If you go to the website idacpodcast.com right on the
3:05
homepage you're going to see a little flyer that comes out from
3:08
the right says talk to us. You just click that and you'll
3:12
see a little microphone check and you just start talking and
3:15
it will send your voice message over to Jim and myself.
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The other way you can get to it is if you go to the contact page
3:23
on our website idacpodcast.com, you'll see on the right hand
3:26
side of the screen there as well a talk to us kind of section,
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same idea, send us a question, a comment, a concern, how you want
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to be cooked if you're a potato or prepared as potato.
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Whatever it is, we'll we'll pick the the five that we like the
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best and use them on the show. So you'll want to listen to that
3:43
episode and we'll hopefully have some some good entrance as we go
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through that. But that's how you do it.
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Just go to the website, click the Talk to US banner on the
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right hand side and there you go.
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Yeah. And I would say that, you know,
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obviously we have the the Book contest right now, but that
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voicemail feature is always available and think we get good
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questions. We'll keep doing that.
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Yeah, I mean, that's what that's always fun to answer kind of
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live questions and you know, you can drop them all over the
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LinkedIn, but if we can play it out of the audio on the show,
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even better. We've tried this in the past,
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didn't really have a lot of uptake, but we'll see if this
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this new version is easier for people to use and we'll go from
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there. Yeah, fantastic.
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So what's today's episode about? We're going to talk about
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Chrysalis 4, and this is a conference that's coming up in
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the next couple of weeks here. And to help us with that
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conversation, I want to welcome back Gary Rowe.
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He's the CEO and founder of Tech Vision Research.
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He's also the former president of Burton Group, former Co
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president of Gartner for technical Professionals or GTP
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for people in the know. He's also been on the show with
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us, which is why I said welcome back.
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He was with us in episode 174. This is episode 253.
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Last time we talked was Chrysalis 2022.
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That was October of 22. Welcome back to the show, Gary.
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Well, thanks and great to be on again.
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I loved it a year or so ago when we were on and I really
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appreciate the the opportunity to join you guys again.
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Well, thanks for taking the time with us.
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And I'm going to point people back to episode 174.
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Normally, our first question is how did you get into world of
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Identity? You've already answered that.
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So we're not going to put you through that again.
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Go back, listen to episode 174 if you want to know Gary's
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origin story. We talked about Chrysalis last
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time. We're talking about Chrysalis
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again. I guess tell me a little bit
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about the conference itself. You know, what is it?
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And what is the sort of overarching goal that we're
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trying to get out of it this year?
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So the conference is an end user focused large enterprise
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conference that takes a hard, pragmatic look at identity,
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security, governance and privacy and looks at recommendations for
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large organizations where we believe the industry should be
6:06
going. And it provides a bit of a
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platform for large enterprises that are trying to make
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architecture planning decisions going forward.
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Dan, you've got kind of a who's who list and and we've got some
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questions to kind of see that coming up.
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But you know, right off the bat, just so people know, when is the
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conference, where is it and how much is the cost?
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So the conference is January 16th to 17th.
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It is a virtual event, so everybody anywhere can
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participate. It costs $399, but we are
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offering a 50% discount to those that follow you guys and I
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believe the code is IDAC 24 and if you put that in when you
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register, you get 50% off the attendance fee.
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Yeah, but listening to the podcast has its privileges,
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right? But Gary, who's the conference
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for? Is it for people who've been in
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the industry for 20 years plus? It's it is for decision makers,
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architects, certainly experienced people, but also
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folks that are really trying to understand this in a very
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concentrated fashion, primarily focused on large organizations
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that are trying to figure this out.
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You know, how How does Identity support some of your security
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goals? How does that tie in with your
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governance models? What's the impact of new
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technologies that are that are being introduced?
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So there's a set of recommendations and perspectives
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specifically for large enterprises.
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So first of all, I I don't want to gloss over the code, 'cause
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that's very cool. Thank you for the code.
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IDAC 2 Four gets you 200 bucks off, Nothing to sneeze at, for
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sure. Membership has his privileges, I
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guess if you're part of the IDAC crew, right?
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And by crew, I mean listening audience, it's virtual.
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I guess if for people who can't attend, and I'll be honest, I
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can't attend, 'cause I'm actually going to be on flights
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and traveling those days. Is there something that I can do
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to kind of catch up after the fact?
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You know what's the virtual environment look like?
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Yeah, absolutely. Everybody who registers for the
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conference will also, after the fact, have access to all of the
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videos from from the event. So you can you can do it in real
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time, or if there are certain sessions you say can't attend,
9:07
you can review them afterwards. So Garrett's looking at the
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agenda and I mean these topics like they are sucking me and I
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can't wait to attend and I'm not sure if I can attend all of
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these topics or if you have to pick and choose, maybe you can
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talk us through that, But the first one that caught my eye was
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modernization. You will talk a little bit about
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the the modernization theme. Sure.
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So one of the one of the first sessions we have is this next
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generation Identity and Access management foundation.
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And as as an analyst firm, we we've spent a lot of time
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tracking, wrote a lot of research, worked with a lot of
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clients on the consulting side with this phenomenon that we're
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seeing now, which is a lot of the big vendors are taking you
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know, classic identity in access management, identity governance
10:10
administration, Privileged access management and other
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capabilities and trying to build them into one cohesive platform.
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So large enterprises are at a decision point.
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Now do we, do we stick with you know our preferred Pam and IGA
10:30
an IAM solution or do we look to one of these consolidated
10:35
platform solutions. So we'll have a session that
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will dive into this and look at some of the pros and cons and
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you know assess you know where Microsoft Intra is and where
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Okta is with their expansion and where Cyber Ark is and where you
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know the Toma Bravo, you know contingent of companies, where
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they are and how they may fit in terms of the capabilities that
11:05
they're offering in the time frame that they're offering as
11:08
opposed to other standalone solutions.
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So that's that's a real important area that frankly
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almost every one of our clients is, is trying to figure out now.
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So that's a key early session of AT Chrysalis this year.
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So I hear next Gen. throwing around quite a bit.
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I guess help me understand what does next Gen. even mean?
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Because I think we needed to decide as an industry, what does
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that term even mean because it could mean modernization, it
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could mean convergence, right? You talk a little bit like
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platforms kind of coming together, right?
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Things like that. There's certainly the AI thing
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sitting out in the corner that is staring at us.
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Define next Gen., Like, what does it mean to you?
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Wow. You're you're really nailing me.
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The the the advantage of of at least partly writing for a
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living is you have a little flexibility when you use terms
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like that, you're you're not gonna let me do that.
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So next Gen. to me is, you know, when you think about identity,
12:13
any large organization, remember that's what we're focused on.
12:17
So any large organization if you're going to make substantive
12:23
changes, an organization's ability to actually execute on
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those changes typically years. So we have to be looking forward
12:35
in terms of you know where these technologies are going, where
12:39
the vendors are going, where the market is going because you know
12:44
if you're planning on kind of best of breed today by time it's
12:48
fully implemented and deployed and executed and integrated into
12:51
your applications. It may be several years down the
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road. So.
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So by next generation it's it's this kind of forward-looking
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perspective, it's trying to put the right stakes in the ground
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in a reasonable time frame. It's usually.
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It's usually a year or two. What are the kind of folks that
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you get in these sessions? Is it mostly panels or is it
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presenters? And then I'm also wondering
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like, is this going to be the conference where like quote, UN
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quote news breaks that something.
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It's said that you're like, wow, I've actually never heard that
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before. This is new information.
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You brought the Tom Bravo piece and I saw that you have Andre at
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the conference. Like, are you like expecting or
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at least hopeful that there's going to be some news that
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drops? I I I'm absolutely hopeful.
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I never fully expect. But you know the the focus is on
13:48
trying to solve some of these problems and trying to you know
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as an industry really work through what are the right
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directions for organizations to take.
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Most of the sessions will be panel sessions.
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So you know if you look at the panels and you look at you know
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some of the just deep thinkers and and folks that really have
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driven our industry that are on those panels.
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I'm very hopeful that we will come up with some new things, we
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will come up with some better solutions.
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We'll work work through some of these, you know, challenges you
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know as as a group and you know always focusing on you know what
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what is best for large enterprises.
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Yeah. You know one of the things I
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think is like if you get those panels and not everybody agrees
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that's where not that you want to have like a Jerry Springer or
14:51
anything, right. We're not going to get that in a
14:53
in a identity conference. But if there's a little bit of
14:57
difference of opinion, maybe you know, hey, some folks are coming
15:01
from the perspective of the practitioner, other folks are
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coming from the product perspective.
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But I thought really what could be interesting about the
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modernization is you really see a tidal wave of new technology
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not only in our space but in all the other IT spaces.
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It kind of feels like digital identity has the job onto itself
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just to keep up with the fast pace of what's happening, you
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know, in the cloud, in enterprise IT in general.
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So I'm really like I said, really interested in that
15:36
modernization track. You know, Jeff touched on
15:40
convergence and the other theme that really jumped out at me was
15:46
artificial intelligence. And it wouldn't be an episode of
15:49
identity at the center or artificial intelligence at the
15:52
center if we didn't bring this up.
15:55
So I mean, this is a big theme, right?
15:57
This is pervasive beyond IT, right?
16:00
This is like people are talking about this at the bar over a
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couple of beers. How?
16:06
How's it going to affect or or? How does that theme fit into
16:10
Chrysalis? So it fits in in in a couple of
16:13
ways. Like I mentioned earlier, the in
16:21
almost every session we're going to have a lot of really smart
16:24
people discussing and debating these things, answering
16:31
questions, trying to, you know, pontificate about where things
16:34
should be going in almost every session.
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I think it would be, it would look naive.
16:41
It would almost be impossible not to be looking at artificial
16:46
intelligence and generative AI and big data and how decisions
16:51
are made and so forth. So that'll be infused into
16:55
virtually every session and identity and security and
16:58
governance. We also have a separate panel
17:03
discussion that looks at the impact of artificial
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intelligence and as we all know, good and bad as it applies to
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security, as it applies to identity and governance.
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And like on that panel will have a lady I've been fortunate
17:24
enough to collaborate with over the years.
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Barbara Starr was one of the top artificial intelligence people
17:31
in the world. I mean, she did a lot of the the
17:34
DARPA work over the last 20 years that developed a lot of
17:38
the foundation that ended up, you know, resulting in in Siri
17:44
and a lot of the, you know, AI technologies we we kind of take
17:48
for granted at this point. She's also done a lot of
17:51
security work. We'll also have on in this
17:55
particular session, Diana Kelly, who I, I, I, I'm sure you guys
18:02
know and have worked with, you know, over over a period of
18:07
time. She's not only a security
18:09
expert, she's doing a lot of work in in artificial
18:13
intelligence and security. Now we also have Chris Wolf, who
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I had the pleasure to work with at Burton Group A long time ago,
18:24
but Chris now runs AI at VM Ware.
18:29
So we'll have that perspective. And then another former
18:33
colleague of mine, It's the advantage of being pretty old
18:36
and having been in the industry a long time, almost everyone
18:38
I've worked with at some point. But we'll have Nick Nichols on
18:43
that panel who runs the security area at Open Text now and it it
18:55
and identity is within that, but it's done a lot of innovative
18:59
work and and we'll have another perspective on artificial
19:04
intelligence and generative AI and how that kind of fits into
19:07
this model. So you know we'll have a great
19:10
team, we'll dive into this deeply.
19:12
You know, I want to make sure when we when we look at AI
19:16
though that we look at it with with the proper perspective, you
19:21
know it's it's not going to solve all problems and
19:25
artificial intelligence and machine learning in general,
19:29
it's it's sometimes wrong. And you know if we want to make
19:35
very prescriptive decisions solely based on you know AI and
19:42
machine learning generated data, we need to be careful.
19:45
So we need to be thinking of the governance and so forth, you
19:47
know, around that. Yeah, it's I I I think AI is one
19:52
of those battlegrounds where it's going to become a
19:54
differentiator for a lot of organizations.
19:57
And I, you know, who is the best AI in quotation marks?
20:01
And I think that's one of the attacks that we're starting to
20:02
see, even early on, is poisoning the models that are being used
20:06
to generate that kind of stuff. I want to take it down a level,
20:10
though, 'cause that's super serious stuff.
20:12
Tell me about Gary, the writer who does this for a living.
20:15
How do you see AI? Do you see it helping you?
20:18
You know, write your research. Write.
20:21
Blogs, articles, things like that.
20:23
Is it cheating? And I asked because I use it
20:27
quite a bit. I'm a big fan of it, but I
20:29
certainly recognize the challenge around it.
20:30
But I I'm always curious to people who actually write for a
20:33
living, how do they view AI in the context of, you know, what
20:36
you do for a living? I think it it it can be
20:40
extremely helpful and useful. I haven't personally leveraged
20:46
it that much in terms of my writing yet.
20:50
I've used it for some primary research, but then I'll pick an
20:58
example. An area that should have covered
21:02
for the last 6-7 years is the area of verifiable credentials
21:07
and decentralized identity. And you know when you when you
21:13
do some ChatGPT you know requests in that area it it
21:22
gives you a lot of older data. And you know so for things that
21:26
are moving really quickly and there's lots of changes that
21:30
will improve over time of course.
21:33
But you know as so for certain things it's it's not quite as
21:39
useful. But for some general research,
21:42
if you're trying to get up to speed on a new topic, you know,
21:45
I think that's really important. And you know there there is an
21:50
opportunity for analysts, for writers to basically get a level
21:57
set pretty quickly especially if it's something new that you're
22:01
trying to research and understand and then kind of
22:06
interpret that data and you know make your decision you know as
22:11
an analyst as to what really is correct and and and what what
22:16
might need some some additional research.
22:19
Kind of strikes me of like, when I was growing up, Pluto was a
22:22
planet and then it wasn't. So for longest time I was like,
22:25
oh, well, Pluto's a planet. So it is.
22:26
And then. And then the facts changed.
22:27
It no longer was a planet. And I, I don't know.
22:29
Is it a planet again? I don't.
22:31
I think there's some some movement I think to move it
22:33
back. But it strikes me as that same
22:36
kind of data model that you talked about where it maybe
22:39
doesn't know recent things like you said.
22:42
That'll get better over time, right?
22:43
Comes more real time, that kind of thing, But I think that's
22:46
kind of a cautionary tale for people.
22:47
If you take the data today at face value, you're not doing
22:50
fact checking. You end up in the news for a for
22:53
a variety of different reasons. Lots of people are citing legal
22:56
arguments, for example, that never took place, right?
23:00
Things like that. So I I I did a lot of work 6-7
23:05
eight years ago and you know beginning to look at distributed
23:10
Ledger blockchain technology and associated with blockchain it
23:14
are smart contracts and to me how 1 uses generative AI is kind
23:22
of like a smart contract. There's, there's some regulatory
23:25
issues. There's if you're actually
23:29
executing automatically based on like with the smart contract,
23:34
based on if this and this then that, then execute then I'm
23:38
agreeing you know on this, on this contract to purchase
23:43
something or whatever to buy some commodity, There's some
23:46
risk associated with that. And it's the same thing with
23:48
generative AI. You know, we get to a point
23:51
where there's a there's a set of recommendations, there's you
24:02
know, big part of AI is predictive analytics.
24:04
We want to kind of figure out what's going to happen at some
24:08
point in the future. But to be able to interpret
24:12
that, to be able to contextualize that I think is is
24:16
important for some period of time.
24:19
You know one of the and and Barbara will will talk about
24:22
this a little bit. You know, at Chrysalis, one of
24:25
the challenges that artificial intelligence has is being able
24:34
to explain how it reached the conclusion that it reached
24:40
explainable AI. And you know, that's that
24:43
there's a lot of work to be done to to try to figure that out.
24:47
So you can say, you know here, here's what you should do at a
24:50
point in time, But depending on the decision, if it's a security
24:55
area, the risk involved and so forth, you probably want to look
24:59
into it a little bit more, at least based on where it is right
25:01
now. I think it's a fascinating
25:03
space. I think it keeps changing.
25:06
So trying to keep up with it is almost a little bit of a fool's
25:09
errand. But I I have on record on this
25:12
podcast of being very bullish of how AI is going to impact the
25:16
identity space. Specifically, you mentioned
25:19
earlier and kind of teased some of the names that are speaking
25:23
at the conference, and you have these concepts of legends
25:26
panels, right? So you've got an identity legend
25:28
panel, you've got a security Legends paddle with some, I'll
25:31
be honest, some really good gets, as we say in the business,
25:34
right? For for speakers.
25:36
I guess my question is, one, who decides who the legends are?
25:41
And then two, tell me a little bit about these panels, the
25:43
identity legends, the security legends panels.
25:45
Like what's the point of those conversations and what are you
25:47
expecting for people to get out of those?
25:49
So the the decision is is made first by by by me and our
25:56
analyst team, you know and and I think if you look at some of the
26:01
names and kind of their histories, I mean there's lots
26:04
of legends out there, but it would be hard to argue that that
26:07
any of the ones that are on either the Identity or Security
26:11
legends panel shouldn't be there.
26:14
So on the on the identity panel, I'll, I don't necessarily
26:23
consider myself a legend, but I'll kind of choreograph it.
26:27
And we've had some amazing people.
26:29
We've had Jamie Lewis and Kim, Kim Cameron, a lot of folks on
26:33
past Legends panels. But it gets back to the core
26:36
premise that you know there's a lot of information out there,
26:42
but you know if you're making a decision, certainly in the
26:46
security and risk side, that could could cost your cost, your
26:50
organization everything. If there's a major breach or if
26:53
there's some some problem on the identity side, it certainly
26:56
could lead to major problems or major opportunities.
27:00
If you if you do it correctly, you want to have the best in the
27:04
industry for for these recommendations.
27:06
So for example, on the Identity Legends panel, we have Andre
27:11
Durand who has been in the space.
27:14
He's a little younger than me, but almost as long as I have,
27:18
you know, built up Ping Identity did did a conference called
27:22
Digital ID World before that did Identivers.
27:27
You know, he's been in the middle of this space.
27:30
And you know, from my perspective, you know, Andre is
27:34
one of the good guys. He wants to do the right things
27:39
for the industry, wants to build companies and do all the things
27:42
business people do. But you know, he he really gets
27:46
it. We have Eve Mailer who you know
27:51
with CTO for years at Ford Rock. She's been in the middle of this
27:56
space. She, you know has she was with
28:01
Forrester before that. She from an analyst perspective,
28:05
from an understanding of identity, from a user centric
28:08
perspective is an absolute superstar.
28:11
We have Lori Robinson, who runs Identity at Salesforce.com.
28:18
Now, Laurie has been, you know, in the middle of this space.
28:24
I had the pleasure to work with her at Burton Group over over
28:27
the years. She's one of the top thought
28:30
leaders at Gartner and now actually driving things at at
28:37
Salesforce. Kevin Campman who's part of Tech
28:42
Vision Kevin, Kevin was was with us from the early days at Burton
28:48
Group and he is probably, if you want to find the top IGA person
28:52
in the world, Kevin has covered that forever.
28:56
But we have Martin Coppinger and and Martin has you know he's
29:02
built I believe the premier research firm that focuses on
29:10
identity and security and governance in Europe over the
29:13
years built, you know some fantastic conferences and is one
29:19
of the thought leaders you know in our industry.
29:22
So you know that's that's on the, that's on the identity
29:26
side. Do you want me to talk about the
29:29
Security Legends panel as well? Yeah, please.
29:32
In this area we've been extremely fortunate again.
29:37
We have on this panel several current and past Chief
29:42
Information Security officers and they're making a lot of the
29:47
the the hard decisions. I'll start with Malcolm Harkins.
29:51
Malcolm was the long time Chief Information Security Officer at
29:57
Intel really before being a SISO was was even a thing and really
30:03
LED them over the years a great speaker, a great thinker in this
30:09
area. We have Alex Toshev who is the
30:15
Chief Information Security Officer at VM Ware and well
30:20
known in in our industry not only for what he's done at VM
30:24
Ware but a lot of the Silicon Valley companies he's he's
30:28
helped and and and driven over the years.
30:31
We have Steve Roberts who is the Chief Information Security
30:36
Officer at Honda and Steve actually spoke with us last year
30:42
as well and did a did did a fantastic job.
30:46
We have Fred Cohen who is probably the, the, the deepest
30:55
thinker that that I've ever, you know dealt with in the
30:59
cybersecurity space. You also don't know exactly what
31:02
he's going to say, which which makes it makes it a lot of fun
31:06
and makes it very entertaining. But to give you a sense for
31:09
Fred, and he's work worked with me at Burton Group years ago,
31:13
but but Fred in his doctoral thesis back in the early 80s was
31:18
the first one to develop the concept of computer viruses.
31:22
And he correlated computer viruses with biological
31:26
developed a lot of the early remediation, you know, software
31:30
and so forth. And then Diana Kelly who most
31:34
people know she's she was also with us at Burton Group A great
31:40
analyst. She she was was a security
31:44
leader at IBM and Microsoft and now she's working with Protect
31:49
AI focused in you know some of the areas that that that we've
31:52
been talking about. So you know I, I I know from my
31:58
perspective if I'm going to go to an event and I'm going to
32:01
spend my time and I'm going to listen to people.
32:04
I want to listen to people who have that level of credibility
32:08
and when they say something, you know, I'm really going to listen
32:11
and get something out of it. Sounds like Crystal's going to
32:15
be a fantastic conference. I hope all of our listeners get
32:18
a chance to attend again that. Discount code.
32:22
Discount code. Yeah, we got to push that out
32:24
there one more time. It'll be in our DAC 24.
32:27
Yeah, it'll be in the show notes.
32:29
So what do you have Gary, planned beyond the conference?
32:34
What we want to do is take a lot of what we're what we're
32:39
discussing at the conference and and we were very intentional
32:43
wanting to have it right at the beginning of the year 'cause I
32:45
think this can represent a great planning foundation for large
32:52
enterprises. But that will then drive our
32:55
research theme for the year. So you know we'll continue to
33:00
expand upon these topics, build build upon it a lot of coverage
33:05
of course on generative AI and artificial intelligence and its
33:09
impact in these areas. Kevin Campman and I are about
33:14
85% of the way done with which would be a great document on
33:20
identity governance and administration and and we just
33:24
concluded you know big consulting project on that.
33:27
That's an important part of our research is and our conference
33:32
is you know to do a lot of the hands on work to be you know at
33:38
at client environments that are trying to figure these things
33:42
out. You get kind of a pragmatic
33:45
perspective that's difficult to get just you know pulling
33:49
information together in in doing research.
33:53
So you know one of the things Kevin talks a lot about which
33:57
which I find interesting and we'll expand upon in our IGA
34:00
document and probably some some additional work this year is the
34:05
human element. And the fact that when we, when
34:08
we look at IGA, of course you know there are vendors that have
34:12
IGA products and we think about it as a product, but it's a
34:15
process and it needs to fit into.
34:19
You know if you think about digital and where it has gone
34:22
over the years, one of the biggest challenges is how do we
34:28
govern this, how do we manage it.
34:31
And it's not just on the identity side, it's what Kevin
34:34
will call Big G Big governance. How do we instantiate policies,
34:38
how do we ensure that those policies make their way through
34:42
the identity systems and the security systems and and and so
34:47
on. We'll continue to do a lot of
34:50
focus on the research we just published our document on the
34:57
future of identity management. But we have a a top 12 list
35:02
there of areas that enterprises at least in our opinion should
35:09
should look to invest in. And we we kind of prioritize
35:13
those starting with governance, going to the this consolidated
35:18
platform to AI and machine learning and figuring out how to
35:22
leverage that better integrating some of these capabilities and
35:27
so forth. And so we'll continue to push
35:31
out the research agenda, you know, push out our consulting,
35:35
but stay focused on this next generation of identity, security
35:40
and governance And you know how enterprises should should be
35:44
dealing with this as as you've pointed out given given the
35:49
change we have and it's not just in generative AI, just the
35:52
change that we have throughout you know, handling the scale
35:56
that we need to handle now, handling, you know, increased
36:01
regulatory controls and privacy controls and so forth, Lots and
36:06
lots of challenges out there which I think will keep us busy
36:10
for the next year. I like this idea of what I'm
36:14
gonna call working media, right. I mean you're you've got your
36:18
firm you're doing, you know this research stuff of that.
36:20
But you also do the consulting and Jim and I have this podcast
36:23
and we also do the consulting, right?
36:25
We it, we're not theoretical scientists when it comes to
36:29
identity. We're very much in the weeds
36:31
with, you know, each of our customers learning from them
36:34
what are the challenges are being faced in the real world.
36:37
Which to be, to be honest, I find that refreshing personally
36:40
because I'm not in an ivory tower dealing with, well, this
36:44
is the way it should be and in the real world, that's not the
36:49
Hawaii, it works right. The real world's messy.
36:51
There's politics. There's budgets.
36:54
There's this old app that we've tried to get rid of for 20 years
36:58
that is never going anywhere. And so you gotta plan around
37:01
that. So I I really enjoy those kind
37:03
of conversations and I love it when people bring so the real
37:07
life right into the conversation as well.
37:09
It's kind of kind of what you referenced before.
37:11
Yeah, we're definitely of like minds there.
37:14
You know, I think it it is, you know, in the end enterprises
37:18
need to build these things, architect them and deploy them.
37:22
And you know, it's not just speeds and feeds.
37:25
It's, you know, what works, How do you deploy it, how do you
37:28
integrate it and how does that tie in with your business?
37:34
You know, because in the end, a couple of years ago when when
37:39
Eve Mailer was on an earlier Identity Legends panel, one of
37:44
the things you know, she, she highlighted, which is kind of
37:46
stuck with me is, you know, like like us folks that that look at
37:52
identity. You know, we think that this is,
37:54
you know, a really big thing. But if you're running a
37:57
business, it's not like, you know, you really care about
38:01
that. You care about, you know how
38:05
quickly a customer gets engaged. You care about how you provision
38:10
the right services to the right customers.
38:12
You care about the security side.
38:16
But this, but you know the kind of integration of the kind of
38:24
practical business side with the you know technology helps us,
38:32
you know probably is stay focused really you know on the
38:34
right thing which is how's your business going to be successful.
38:37
And these are all enabling technologies that you know,
38:41
hopefully you know improve that bottom line, your customer
38:44
relationships, retention and all of those good things.
38:48
I like that. I like that comment you made
38:50
about you know what Eve said, right?
38:52
It the the, the business doesn't necessarily care how things are
38:56
getting done as long as they're getting done the risk is low,
38:58
right. All those good stuff.
38:59
I think that's probably good feedback for everybody.
39:02
Everyone thinks there's the most important thing in the world.
39:04
No, I this is a lesson I learned.
39:07
Serving table, you know, waiting tables way back when.
39:09
Your ranch dressing maybe isn't the most important thing in the
39:12
world right now. So we'll get to it.
39:14
We'll get to it. Gary, you've been really
39:16
generous with your time and I want to start to wrap things up,
39:19
but it wouldn't be an episode if we didn't end on a lighter note.
39:22
And I'm gonna make this one a little bit holiday themed,
39:24
'cause I think for the most part, I know you've been busy
39:27
towards the end of the year and a lot of people really were like
39:29
end of year rush, but hopefully people had some time to kind of
39:32
decompress and take some time off.
39:35
And typically around the holidays there's probably some
39:38
good meals that are taking place, either family or other
39:41
things. What's the best thing that you
39:43
ate over this most recent holiday break?
39:46
Well the best thing I'm I ate was was something I cooked I
39:51
must say and it was A and and we had a traditional Turkey and so
39:57
forth but especially with with. With my kids, who really love
40:03
seafood, I made a pasta Primavera with shrimp, lobster
40:08
and crab meat and that was that was a big hit and I must say I
40:13
enjoyed it. That's a pretty good roll out
40:15
there for sure. Jim, what did you have that was
40:17
memorable for food over the break?
40:19
Yeah, and I my my item was something I cooked.
40:24
Also, it was the first time cooking it.
40:26
It was a prime rib. I took a 5 LB prime rib and
40:31
roasted it and turned out great. Now The funny thing was, our
40:37
friend of the show, Arturo, texted me.
40:41
He was doing the same thing but on New Year's.
40:43
I said, hey man, I've got the perfect thing. 23 minutes at 350
40:48
per pound, 23 minutes per pound. And he wrote me back later,
40:53
overcooked. I was like, man, I ruined the
40:55
guy's prime rib. But I don't like my meat to be
40:59
bleeding out and stuff like that.
41:01
So it was, it was pre mellow. It was wonderful.
41:04
What about you, Jeff? Honestly, I had a few things and
41:07
so I'm selfish. And I came up with this question
41:09
and I was like, I I ate good over the break.
41:11
My wife is a very good chef and so she made her a bunch of
41:15
things We had prime rib for for Christmas Eve dinner.
41:18
That was fantastic. We did a ham, but it wouldn't be
41:22
me saying something if it wasn't something that wasn't good for
41:25
you as a Christmas present. My wife got me the Ninja like
41:31
it's like an ice cream blender thing.
41:33
I can't remember what it's called.
41:35
Basically, you can make your own Blizzards if you're familiar
41:38
with Dairy Queen and you drop your ice cream in, You can make
41:41
ice cream in it, but you drop your mixins and it does the
41:43
whole thing where it mixes together.
41:45
And I gotta tell you, we're not sponsored by Ninja, but I would
41:48
happily be sponsored by Ninja to talk about this thing all day
41:50
long because I have been eating ice cream like every day for
41:54
like the last week. So I ordered a peloton today to
41:57
replace my old one, but that was by far.
42:01
It was like the coolest thing was making your own, like
42:03
blizzards at home and it comes out chef's kiss.
42:08
I might have to buy one of those.
42:10
Yeah, me too. I just got a ninja air fryer.
42:13
Air Fryers are the best thing ever.
42:15
That That means you can bring fries home and you don't have to
42:18
worry about it. Yeah, I've only done a few
42:21
things. I just just got it a couple
42:23
weeks ago, but yeah, the yearly results are very good.
42:26
Yep. Drop them.
42:27
You can drop the McDonald's fries in and you put it for
42:30
about 3:50 or so for about four minutes.
42:34
Crystal them right up tight, man.
42:36
We're living good now. So we're talking ice cream,
42:38
we're talking fried foods. Yeah.
42:40
I and I ordered a peloton rower today.
42:42
So that's me getting hopefully into better shape for 2024.
42:46
That's a good spot where I think we'll leave it for this week.
42:49
Gary, thank you so much for taking the time with us.
42:51
Really looking forward to the Chrysalis conference.
42:53
For those who haven't registered yet, use our code IDAC 2 Four,
42:58
that'll be in our show notes as well.
43:00
Take advantage of that. And thank you to Gary for that
43:03
partnership and providing that for all of our great listeners
43:06
out there. And we'll have links in our show
43:08
notes to Gary if you want to ask him questions on LinkedIn to the
43:12
Chrysalis event itself, so people can check out the agenda
43:15
and stuff like that and register as well as there's a report that
43:19
I think you guys are coming up with or maybe it's already out
43:21
the future of identity management.
43:23
It's sort of like the next five years in 30 to 60 seconds.
43:27
Give us like, what is that report about?
43:29
So that report is one that we've done each of the past like 6
43:35
years and we put together a prioritized list of the areas
43:43
that enterprises should be thinking about architecting and
43:47
investing in. So we first I had a top ten
43:50
list, now we have a top 12 list. It it ties into some of the
43:54
macro trends that we talked about earlier.
43:57
But, but it's a way that enterprises can basically say,
44:01
you know, as we're thinking about our identity program this
44:04
year, you know, here's kind of a third party assessment of some
44:09
of the things we need to be thinking about.
44:11
And so we'll have a link to that in our show notes.
44:13
People can check that out as well.
44:16
I'm. I love thinking about the
44:18
future, so I'm curious to see what's gonna come up out of
44:20
this. You know what?
44:22
For me, it's like, OK, what should I be thinking about and
44:24
what should I not care about? Because I have enough things to
44:26
think about. Anything that whittles down what
44:29
I need to keep in my brain, I'm always a fan of.
44:31
So hopefully there'll be some good Nuggets coming out of that.
44:34
You can find us on the web ID acpodcast.com.
44:37
Don't forget to use that voicemail button, Start sending
44:40
those voicemails in. And lucky, lucky winners that
44:43
we'll use on the show for voicemails will get a copy of of
44:47
the book that we'll be announcing as well.
44:49
So that's from Phil Winley. Jim, what's the name of that
44:52
book again? Learning digital identity.
44:54
Yeah, yours, everybody. What everybody Who Listens
44:57
podcast probably wants to do. Well, you know, kind of a teaser
45:00
for the next episode. You know, Phil comes on the show
45:03
and and Jim's holding up his book.
45:05
Like, look at me, I I've read your book.
45:07
It's a heavy book, man. If you read a book that big,
45:10
you'd be proud of yourself too. Yeah, I'm not a reader.
45:12
I'll wait for the movie. How about that?
45:16
I don't think it'll be a mess, mass market kind of thing.
45:20
Hey, you never know. Like this podcast, right?
45:22
We still continue to grow. You never know, maybe there'll
45:24
be an IAM movie at some point. All right, on the web,
45:26
idacpodcast.com, on Twitter or X or whatever we're calling it
45:29
this year. IDAC Podcast Mastodon at IDAC
45:33
Podcast at infosec dot exchange. Feel free to connect with us on
45:37
LinkedIn as well, check out our show notes.
45:39
And don't forget to, like, subscribe and keep sharing the
45:41
the gospel of identity at the center with others.
45:43
So appreciate everyone for listening and we'll talk with
45:46
everyone in the next one. You've been listening to
45:50
Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show.
45:54
Make sure to like, rate and review and we'll be back soon.
45:58
But in the meantime, hit the website at
46:01
identity@thecenter.com and find us on Twitter at IDAC Podcast.
46:08
See you next time on Identity at the Center.