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MYSTERY DEATH: Gene Hackman, Wife, Dog Dead 9 Days Before Workers See Bodies Thru Window · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace the gene probe.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: Gene Hackman, his wife, and dog dead nine days before
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: neighbors see the bodies through the window.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: being with us.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: So I.
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: Used to found to a one decease person inside a house.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: At this hour according to law enforcement, the deaths of
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Gene Hackman, his wife, and dog suspicious.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: What happened to the oscar winner? Let's go to that
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: nine to one one call listening.
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  Speaker 3: Hello, I've seen you found to a one decease person
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  Speaker 3: inside a house. There's no address.
• 1:01
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna wait for you at the gate.
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  Speaker 3: I'm gonna wait for you to please send somebody's really quick?
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  Speaker 4: Are you with a patient? Now?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm over at their property. There's no address here,
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  Speaker 3: so I have to meet the denialist or the police whoever,
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  Speaker 3: down at the gatehouse.
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  Speaker 5: I'll bring them up here.
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  Speaker 2: Curiously, hesitancy to say two dead bodies, but that could
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  Speaker 2: be easily explained with an innocent explanation that the viewer
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  Speaker 2: could only see part of the second dead body.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Let's listen to more.
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  Speaker 5: A female and the mail probably I don't know, I
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  Speaker 5: don't know. If I's just send somebody up real quick.
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  Speaker 4: Okay? Are they awake? I have no idea? Are they breathing?
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  Speaker 4: I have no idea.
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  Speaker 3: I'm not inside the house. It's closed.
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  Speaker 5: It's a long I go in, but I see the
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  Speaker 5: ladies laying down on a blocker from the window.
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  Speaker 4: They appeared to be completely their awake. Do they appear
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  Speaker 4: to be awake or alert?
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  Speaker 6: No?
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  Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, no, okay, okay do you ever
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: hear do you hear this talk or cry?
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  Speaker 7: No?
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  Speaker 4: No, okay? Are they moving at all?
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  Speaker 3: No, dude, they're not moving.
• 2:18
  Speaker 5: Just sing somebody out here really quick, dude.
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  Speaker 2: Nine only one dispatchers ever bother you because the call
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  Speaker 2: has already said they're two dead people, and the nine
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  Speaker 2: only one dispatch says do they appear to be completely awake?
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Do they appear to be awake or alert? Did you
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  Speaker 1: hear them talk or cry? Are they moving?
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  Speaker 4: No?
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  Speaker 1: They're dead.
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  Speaker 2: We are talking about an oscar winner, Gene Hagman, his
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  Speaker 2: wife and their dog.
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  Speaker 1: Now how can that all be explained away innocently at
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: this hour? As we go to air law enforcement?
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  Speaker 2: Saving the deaths are quote suspicious? Joining me Jessica Finn,
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  Speaker 2: Senior investigative report at the US.
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  Speaker 1: Son Jessica, thank you for being with us.
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  Speaker 2: Let's just start at the beginning, how the body of
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  Speaker 2: Gene Hackman and his wife and his dog were found.
• 3:09
  Speaker 7: Yeah, really wild scene in Santa Fe. You find the
• 3:14
  Speaker 7: maintenance worker calling nine one one and he is very frantic.
• 3:18
  Speaker 7: And what's something people don't realize was that there were
• 3:21
  Speaker 7: actually two different nine one one calls. The first one,
• 3:24
  Speaker 7: it's a dial to nine one one. The dispatcher picks
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  Speaker 7: up and he says hello, Hello, nine one one, Hello,
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  Speaker 7: and you hear the dog sparking the background. You hear
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  Speaker 7: a man's voice talking, and it just is this very
• 3:34
  Speaker 7: chaotic scene. And then this guy hangs up the phone,
• 3:38
  Speaker 7: and then the nine one one dispatcher tries to call
• 3:40
  Speaker 7: him back again and tries to get the guy back
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  Speaker 7: on the phone, and then there's a second phone call
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  Speaker 7: to nine one one, So it just paints this really,
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  Speaker 7: really hectic picture of what's going on. You hear again
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  Speaker 7: the two living dogs in the background, presumably the Hackman's dogs,
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  Speaker 7: and you hear this maintenance worker just very upset and
• 3:58
  Speaker 7: very distressed. He's trying to tell the nine one dispatcher
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  Speaker 7: that there are two dead people in the house, and
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  Speaker 7: nine one one is asking the series of questions about
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  Speaker 7: are they breathing like you said, are they talking? And
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  Speaker 7: it's this really strange inquiry from the nine one one dispatcher.
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  Speaker 7: And one of the other interesting things that the maintenance
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  Speaker 7: worker says is, you know, as we know, the Hackmans
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  Speaker 7: were very private people. There were no security cameras at
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  Speaker 7: the house. They were extremely extremely private, And he says
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  Speaker 7: to the dispatcher, there's not an address for the house,
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  Speaker 7: and there's a reason for that, pointing to how private
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  Speaker 7: these two people were and how much they protected their
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  Speaker 7: celebrity status and really kind of wanted to make sure
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  Speaker 7: that people couldn't track them down and kind of were
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  Speaker 7: off the grid, so to speak.
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  Speaker 1: This is more of what we're learning from the sea.
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  Speaker 2: We're Oscar winner, Jane Hagman, wife and dog all found dead.
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  Speaker 8: Listen deputies arrived and gain access to the residents where
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  Speaker 8: they observed missus Aracowa deceased. They continue the search of
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  Speaker 8: their home and located mister Kman in a separate area
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  Speaker 8: of the residence, also deceased. A German shepherd was also
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  Speaker 8: found deceased, and two other dogs who appeared healthy were
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  Speaker 8: located on the property.
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  Speaker 9: Responding officers find the front door in the glass entry
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  Speaker 9: way of Hackman's two story, green colored Stucke home opened
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  Speaker 9: a jar just a bit, but there did not appear
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  Speaker 9: to be any signs of forced entry. The garage connected
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  Speaker 9: to the three point eight million dollar home appeared to
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  Speaker 9: be locked, and nothing appeared to be out of place.
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  Speaker 2: The garage locked, the door a jar, nothing stolen, nothing ransacked,
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  Speaker 2: nothing rummaged through, no items taken. Everything appeared in place.
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  Speaker 2: What does it mean? I know at least one expert
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  Speaker 2: has focused on the dog for good reason, joining me
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  Speaker 2: forensic expert, director and founder of the Cold Case Investigative
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  Speaker 2: Research Institute and star of Zone seven podcast, Cheryl mco
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  Speaker 2: Oh them, what about it?
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  Speaker 10: I would focus on the dog because you're going to
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  Speaker 10: see the pattern of what the Hackmans did. Did they
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  Speaker 10: put the dog in the crate in the morning or
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  Speaker 10: the evening? That would give you a timetable to start
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  Speaker 10: from those patterns. Those habits are really important. The other
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  Speaker 10: thing for me is if you talk about a net
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  Speaker 10: cropcy for the dog or testing for the animal, that's
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  Speaker 10: going to come back quicker than it will for the Hackmans.
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  Speaker 10: We may not know for sure for months what may
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  Speaker 10: or may not have happened to them, but with that animal,
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  Speaker 10: we would know much quicker. So my focus would be.
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  Speaker 1: On the habit.
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  Speaker 11: Why do you say that, Cheryl, Because you're not going
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  Speaker 11: to have that many You're going to have many more
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  Speaker 11: people that have to have an autopsy than an animal
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  Speaker 11: that is killed in a situation or died of natural
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  Speaker 11: causes or poison.
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  Speaker 10: So those tests are going to be able to tell
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  Speaker 10: us much much quicker what might have occurred in that home.
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  Speaker 2: So you were saying, And the reason we would get
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  Speaker 2: the results back on the dog more quickly the German
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  Speaker 2: shepherd is because.
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  Speaker 1: There's no line.
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  Speaker 2: There's not a long line of gerbils and hamsters and
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  Speaker 2: guinea pigs and birds and cats.
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  Speaker 1: And dogs waiting for an autopsy. Is that your reason
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  Speaker 1: for saying that the dog autopsy will come back quicker?
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  Speaker 12: Correct?
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  Speaker 8: It?
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  Speaker 1: Got it?
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  Speaker 2: Joining me to follow up on that is renowned medical examiner, toxicologist, pathologist,
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  Speaker 2: opioid treatment expert, and author of American Narcan doctor William Moroney.
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  Speaker 2: Doctor Moroney, thank you for being with us and taking
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  Speaker 2: your time away from what you do every day for
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  Speaker 2: all of us, doctor Moroney, with the door, ajar, would
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  Speaker 2: that rule out carbon monoxide.
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  Speaker 12: In any normal case? The answer is yes, because carbon
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  Speaker 12: monoxide has to concentrate. Can't concentrate with the door open,
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  Speaker 12: doctor Moroney.
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  Speaker 2: What would be found typically when bodies when someone dies
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  Speaker 2: of carbon monoxide? And then I want to follow up
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  Speaker 2: with you with the fact that both Hackman and his
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  Speaker 2: wife were mummified to a degree. But first the carbon monoxide.
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  Speaker 12: Well, in carbon monoxide, the skin is bright red. Now,
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  Speaker 12: that may be complicated because they were mummified, but the
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  Speaker 12: appearance of the skin and the color of the deceased
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  Speaker 12: is the take home point. And the fire department does
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  Speaker 12: not enter a building without running a carbon monoxide meter,
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  Speaker 12: so they would know that because when they enter then
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  Speaker 12: they would have to use a self contained breathing apparatus.
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  Speaker 12: So that's the carbon monoideques.
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  Speaker 2: Well, you're going so fast out to Maroney for regular
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  Speaker 2: lay people like myself. First of all, why with the
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  Speaker 2: victim's face. The victim's faces be red due to carbon
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  Speaker 2: monoxide poisoning, that's a surefire giveaway.
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  Speaker 12: But why because the chemistry of carbon monoxide versus the
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  Speaker 12: chemistry of hemoglobin. It's how things work. Hemoglobin allows you
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  Speaker 12: to transfer oxygen back and forth carbon monoxide. It's just
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  Speaker 12: the color of blood with carbon monoxide in the skin.
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  Speaker 12: It doesn't change, and the carbon monoxide molecule permanently sits
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  Speaker 12: in the receptor site on the hemoglobin, whereas oxygen moves
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  Speaker 12: on and off easily. It's always a red color because
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  Speaker 12: that's the chemistry of carbon monoxide.
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  Speaker 1: I want everyone on the panel to hear what more
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  Speaker 1: we know. Listen.
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  Speaker 9: Walking in the front door, officers see a bathroom to
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  Speaker 9: the left of the front door that's lying on her
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  Speaker 9: right side dead. She is wearing dark gray sweatpants and
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  Speaker 9: a light colored sweatshirt. Next to the body is a
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  Speaker 9: black space heater near her head, but the report doesn't
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  Speaker 9: say if it was on. An open orange prescription bottle
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  Speaker 9: with pills scattered on the countertop. There are obvious signs
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  Speaker 9: of death, body decomposition, bloating in her face, and mummification
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  Speaker 9: in both hands and feet. As deputies continued, they see
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  Speaker 9: feet and legs near the kitchen area. Gene Hackman is
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  Speaker 9: found dead in the mudroom wearing gray sweatpants, a blue
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  Speaker 9: long sleeved t shirt, brown slippers, has a walking cane
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  Speaker 9: and a pair of sunglasses. Hackman also showed obvious signs
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  Speaker 9: of death.
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  Speaker 2: Too, Jessica Fann joining US investigative reporter with the US
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  Speaker 2: sign we're both bodies partially mummified and are we sure.
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  Speaker 1: That door was a jar?
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  Speaker 7: Yeah, so both both bodies were absolutely partially mummified. Really
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  Speaker 7: gruesome scene that police ended up coming upon at the house.
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  Speaker 7: At the residence, and you know, we from what we understand,
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  Speaker 7: the back door was a jar. It seems like it
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  Speaker 7: could have potentially police theorize been a jar to allow
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  Speaker 7: the dogs to come in and out of the residence freely.
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  Speaker 1: We don't know that for sure.
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  Speaker 7: There's different reports about the front door. The maintenance worker
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  Speaker 7: initially says in his nine to one to one call
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  Speaker 7: that the front door is locked. When the police get there,
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  Speaker 7: the police say that the front door was not locked.
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  Speaker 7: So we don't know exactly the situation with the front door,
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  Speaker 7: but we do know that the back door absolutely was
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  Speaker 7: not only unlocked, but it was open and dogs seemed
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  Speaker 7: to be coming in and out of the home freely.
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  Speaker 2: Very very curious, And I'm going to follow up in
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  Speaker 2: a moment with Cheryl McCollum regarding that door, Ajar. We've
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  Speaker 2: seen that before when pets were involved. Okay to doctor
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  Speaker 2: William Maroney. A lot to break down right there, doctor Moroney.
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  Speaker 2: First of all, mummification, what is it now? We believe
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  Speaker 2: and I'll get into this too.
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  Speaker 1: There's just so much, so.
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  Speaker 2: Many scientific evidence. Is what it's called in the law
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  Speaker 2: regarding for instance, the pacemaker. How long had it not
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: been working? And what does that mean? There's a lot
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  Speaker 2: to do with this pacemaker. What I'm getting at, Morony,
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  Speaker 2: is a timeline. Can you talk to me about what
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  Speaker 2: is mummification and how would that happen that quickly? I mean,
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  Speaker 2: I would expect if they have been dead nine days
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  Speaker 2: as we are told, based on a lot of different
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  Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence, extrinsic evidence. I'm very surprised their bodies aren't
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  Speaker 2: in decomp as opposed to mummification.
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  Speaker 12: There's two words that lead us to understand mummification New Mexico.
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  Speaker 12: This is totally different than a body dying in Iowa,
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  Speaker 12: Connecticut or Wyoming. Bodies desiccate in these kind of environments
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  Speaker 12: much faster.
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  Speaker 1: And is that do I have to tell you again,
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  Speaker 1: doctor Moroney?
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  Speaker 2: Desicate, I'll speak, thank you, yes, and I will take that,
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  Speaker 2: not in a bad way.
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  Speaker 12: Dummy down for me, It's look in any other environment.
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  Speaker 12: Mummification is a general principle that follows. Nobody goes to
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  Speaker 12: the bloating, the bloating around the face, the bloating around
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  Speaker 12: the center chest and the torso. Limbs mummifi faster limbs
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  Speaker 12: don't usually bloat up with gas. I see it all
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  Speaker 12: the time on scenes mummification if somebody's been down a week.
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  Speaker 12: But New Mexico, those are the key words. Is why
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  Speaker 12: this went through mummification so fast. Air condition, outdoors, whatever
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  Speaker 12: the conditions are New Mexico mummification. Drying is really a
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  Speaker 12: big part of this.
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  Speaker 2: So you're saying mummification what happened much more quickly in
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  Speaker 2: New Mexico as opposed to let's just say Manhattan bingo. Yes,
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  Speaker 2: because of the dry air and the temperature. Correct correct, Okay,
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  Speaker 2: doctor moroney. How can there be bloating and modification?
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  Speaker 12: Okay, because the bloating comes from gas. There's gas. There's
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  Speaker 12: bacteria in your body, in your bowels, in your stomach,
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  Speaker 12: in your lungs. There's a normal, healthy group of bacteria
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  Speaker 12: that lives in you.
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  Speaker 1: And as soon as you stop dying.
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  Speaker 12: The life cycle of that bacteria is unopposed and it
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  Speaker 12: gives off gas. Ordinarily, you swallow them and they pass
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  Speaker 12: in your stool, you cough, you blow them out of
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  Speaker 12: your nose. Bacteria is a very important part of the body,
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  Speaker 12: and when the body no longer can cleanse itself or
• 14:48
  Speaker 12: reestablish fresh new young bacteria, old bacteria and decay cause
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  Speaker 12: the body to bloat. These are very specific gases related
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  Speaker 12: to decomposition, but the process of bloating is very very common.
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  Speaker 12: It's just that you bloat and you dry in different
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  Speaker 12: places at different times, and arms and legs are where
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  Speaker 12: you mummify. First, Nobody said anything about maggots. That's very
• 15:20
  Speaker 12: interesting because blowflies and maggots would allow you more time
• 15:27
  Speaker 12: to actually stage when they died. Nobody's talking about maggots.
• 15:31
  Speaker 12: That's very interesting. That says to me that the house
• 15:36
  Speaker 12: was sealed and it wasn't as open because flies come
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  Speaker 12: in anywhere, and when they plant their eggs, they plant
• 15:46
  Speaker 12: them in the eyes, they plant them in the nose,
• 15:48
  Speaker 12: they plant them in the mouth, and they go to
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  Speaker 12: other body parts like the rectum, and they multiply as maggots.
• 15:55
  Speaker 12: Nobody's talking about maggots. That's really important here too.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: Darthian Maroney, need to understand what you're saying.
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  Speaker 2: It is forensic etymology, the study of bugs insects as
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: it relates to crime, specifically dead bodies.
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  Speaker 1: So let me understand, doctor Moroney.
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  Speaker 2: For maggots to appear on a dead body, that body
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  Speaker 2: must be exposed in some way.
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  Speaker 1: To the outdoors.
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  Speaker 2: So the outdoor, the fly has to come in to
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  Speaker 2: the residents to get to the body, right right, okay,
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: And even if there are no flies in the area,
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  Speaker 2: as soon as a body as someone dies, they come.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know that I'm not an etymologist, but they
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  Speaker 2: show up in all sorts of weather conditions.
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  Speaker 1: So you're saying, this is really interesting.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: Many people believe that with a dead body magots just
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: originate from the body.
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  Speaker 1: That's not true.
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  Speaker 2: The fly has to the insect. The adult insect has
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: to appear and then lay eggs, hence maggots. And you're saying, because.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: There weren't on that door, must not have been a
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  Speaker 1: jar the entire time.
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  Speaker 12: Field. Yes, And I think it's it's key that they
• 17:21
  Speaker 12: don't talk about maggots in any other case where anybody
• 17:24
  Speaker 12: dies outdoors, you always bring in a forensic entomologist, and
• 17:29
  Speaker 12: the maggots help you apply a timeline. Maggots are on
• 17:33
  Speaker 12: the body the first hour it dies outdoors, so if
• 17:37
  Speaker 12: you don't have any maggots at all, then there were
• 17:41
  Speaker 12: never any openings for windows or doors the whole time
• 17:45
  Speaker 12: this was going on, and the mummification comes from the
• 17:48
  Speaker 12: air conditioning.
• 17:49
  Speaker 9: Hagmann's daughter, Leslie tells reporters that she hadn't seen her
• 17:52
  Speaker 9: father or stepmother in a few months since she lives
• 17:56
  Speaker 9: in California. As far as talking to her dad, she
• 17:59
  Speaker 9: said it all have been a couple of months, but
• 18:01
  Speaker 9: she adds they were close. She says everything seemed normal
• 18:05
  Speaker 9: and good. Her father was in good shape, doing pilates
• 18:08
  Speaker 9: and yoga multiple times a week.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: For our alert, I have no idea.
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  Speaker 3: I'm not inside the house.
• 18:15
  Speaker 5: It closed as long as I can't go in, but
• 18:18
  Speaker 5: I see that lab she's laying down on a blog
• 18:20
  Speaker 5: from the windows a female and email. Probably I don't know.
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: I don't know if I's seen.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Somebody question what do we know about the death of
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: Gene Hackman, his wife and dog. At this hour, law
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: enforcement still saying that the deaths are suspicious, not ruling
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: it accident, not ruling it suicide, and now we're learning
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: carbon monoxide very unlikely. Of course, theories emerge after Randy
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: Quaid claims Gene Hackman and his wife were murdered. Quaid
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: shared his theory, calling on news agencies to stop talking
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: about the films he is in. This is how they
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: get away with murdering famous people. To doctor Bethany Marshall
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: joining me, a renownced psychoanalysis out of the LA jurisdiction
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: author of deal Breaker. You can find her at doctor
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Bethany Marshall dot com. You can also see her on
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Peacock Now, doctor Bethany Now. Murder theories are abounding, and
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: part of that reason is because we're not hearing it
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: was suicide for obvious reasons.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: We're not hearing it was accident.
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  Speaker 2: But yet there was no break in, no forced entry apparent,
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: and we can't find anything missing from the home. So
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: naturally people start thinking murder.
• 19:40
  Speaker 6: That's right, Nancy, But there's so many other things that
• 19:42
  Speaker 6: could have taken place. And what I would be mostly
• 19:45
  Speaker 6: concerned about, just from a behavioral perspective, is did this
• 19:50
  Speaker 6: couple have any negative large events looming in their life?
• 19:54
  Speaker 6: Like a cancer diagnosis not able to be a mortgage.
• 19:58
  Speaker 6: I know that sounds strange, but take that into account.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Why was there a.
• 20:02
  Speaker 6: Two month break in talking to Jean Kackman's daughter, Because
• 20:06
  Speaker 6: older couples are much more safe when they are in
• 20:10
  Speaker 6: contact with their families. Were their bills that weren't paid?
• 20:13
  Speaker 6: Was the door typically blocked open? Was there a caregiver
• 20:17
  Speaker 6: or somebody who came in and out of the house.
• 20:20
  Speaker 6: Was there an accountant who paid their bills?
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: How was their food prepared?
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Back to Jessica Finn joining us,
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: a chief investigative reporter with the US SON.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: I get it.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: If it's not suicide and it's not natural cause, then
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: naturally people are going to look at the possibility of murder,
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: and so far law enforcement is calling it suspicious. I mean, Jessica, listen.
• 20:56
  Speaker 8: To this from the search warm two green and color
• 21:01
  Speaker 8: cell phones, two bottles of medication, one bottle of over
• 21:07
  Speaker 8: the counter tilean on my request, medical records, and a
• 21:13
  Speaker 8: twenty twenty five monthly planner calendar. Mister Hackman and miss
• 21:18
  Speaker 8: Arikawa were transported to the office of the Medical Investigator.
• 21:22
  Speaker 8: An autopsy was performed initial findings noted no external trauma
• 21:28
  Speaker 8: to either individual. The manner and cause of death has
• 21:31
  Speaker 8: not been determined. The official results of the autopsy and
• 21:35
  Speaker 8: toxicology reports are pending.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Is that correct, Jessica, No external trauma.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: That means no gunshot wound, no stabbing, no obvious size
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: of ligature or manual strangulation, no bludgeoning.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: Correct. Correct.
• 21:50
  Speaker 7: I mean, it's definitely a suspicious case and there's no
• 21:54
  Speaker 7: clear trauma to the body. What we do know is
• 21:57
  Speaker 7: that investigator has found several types of pill, thyroid medication,
• 22:01
  Speaker 7: blood pressure medication, and over the counter.
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: Tile and all.
• 22:05
  Speaker 7: One of the things that's being reported right now from
• 22:07
  Speaker 7: the New York Times is that the pills that were
• 22:09
  Speaker 7: found near Betsy's body are still unidentified, so we don't
• 22:14
  Speaker 7: quite know why those pills that were scattered, what those
• 22:17
  Speaker 7: pills that were scattered on the countertop necessarily were. And
• 22:21
  Speaker 7: we know that these two were found in separate rooms.
• 22:24
  Speaker 7: Gene appeared to have been found in what would be
• 22:28
  Speaker 7: the homes and mudroom, with his cane nearby and his
• 22:32
  Speaker 7: sunglasses nearby, looking as if he had just simply fallen,
• 22:36
  Speaker 7: whereas She's appeared to have possibly fallen and knocked over
• 22:40
  Speaker 7: a space heater on her way down in the bathroom.
• 22:42
  Speaker 7: But we just don't have the answer as yet. We
• 22:44
  Speaker 7: don't understand why both of these people were found dead.
• 22:48
  Speaker 7: And definitely it appears that they were found they had
• 22:51
  Speaker 7: passed at least in the last couple of weeks, because
• 22:54
  Speaker 7: people had seen them three weeks ago in the neighborhood.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Doctor William Moroney joining us for now Medical examiner lightning
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: around this is a yes, no, Can you die of
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: a thyroid overdose thyroid medicine?
• 23:07
  Speaker 12: Not that fast? Yes, not that fast?
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: Okay, what about blood pressure mads? Can you die of
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: an od on? Blood pressure mads?
• 23:14
  Speaker 12: That blood pressure medicine specifically is known as a calcium
• 23:19
  Speaker 12: channel blocker. One of the things it does is it
• 23:23
  Speaker 12: slows the heart rate. If you took too much, it
• 23:28
  Speaker 12: would stop your heart.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: But wouldn't that show up in the autopsy.
• 23:31
  Speaker 12: No, Well, see the problem with the autopsy and things
• 23:36
  Speaker 12: like that is they have a predetermined panel of illegal
• 23:40
  Speaker 12: drugs they looked at. They might have to send out
• 23:45
  Speaker 12: dilthiasm toxicology to somebody else because for the same reason
• 23:51
  Speaker 12: that the animal toxicology and autopsies are done faster. I
• 23:56
  Speaker 12: don't know that any medical examiner can give you a
• 24:00
  Speaker 12: fast level of del tiasm levels. Diacetyl dl tiism would
• 24:05
  Speaker 12: be the metabolite, and you'd look at both of them
• 24:09
  Speaker 12: to see if it was an acute like took a
• 24:11
  Speaker 12: handful of and died, or whether we were just taking
• 24:14
  Speaker 12: too much. You've forgotten it slowed your heart rate. It's
• 24:17
  Speaker 12: a calcium channel blocker.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: I would require.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: But Joshua Ritter joining me, a high profile criminal defense
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: attorney and former prosecutor, star of Courtroom Confidential on YouTube, Joshua,
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: it's not working. Everything he just said Ronie is correct,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: but you would have to assume that she the wife, Betsy,
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: decided to o D on BP blood pressure appeals. Then
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: he oded on blood pressure peals in a different area,
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: fully closed, looking like he was about to walk out
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: the door, and the dog they forest fed the.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Dog blood pressure medication.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: I'm just it doesn't fit this scenario, josh rit Er,
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: I understand why the murder theories are taking root.
• 25:06
  Speaker 13: No, absolutely none of it seems to add up because
• 25:08
  Speaker 13: you have two people who seem to have collapsed where
• 25:11
  Speaker 13: they stood. That's my biggest problem is it's not like
• 25:14
  Speaker 13: they were. One of them was lying in bed or
• 25:17
  Speaker 13: sitting on a chair. They literally seem to have been
• 25:19
  Speaker 13: standing and then collapsed on the floor and were found
• 25:22
  Speaker 13: where they stood. And it seems I think it's safe
• 25:25
  Speaker 13: to assume in surmise that it happened close in time
• 25:28
  Speaker 13: to each other, because neither one of them called nine
• 25:30
  Speaker 13: to one one for assistance on the other person. So
• 25:32
  Speaker 13: you've got to assume you've now got two people who
• 25:35
  Speaker 13: collapse where they stood close in time to each other,
• 25:37
  Speaker 13: if not at the same time. To me, that's absolutely suspicious.
• 25:42
  Speaker 13: You have to look into that. I think you have
• 25:44
  Speaker 13: to do exactly what law enforcement is doing, getting search warrants,
• 25:48
  Speaker 13: starting to gather information, not jumping to any kind of conclusions,
• 25:53
  Speaker 13: because do these types of things happen where two people
• 25:56
  Speaker 13: might collapse close in time to each other. I'm sure
• 26:00
  Speaker 13: that they may have happened before in the past, But
• 26:02
  Speaker 13: to assume that that's exactly what happened here and it
• 26:05
  Speaker 13: was either like you said, natural causes or or some
• 26:08
  Speaker 13: sort of accident, I think would be a mistake at
• 26:10
  Speaker 13: this point in the investigation.
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: Hello, money, I think we just found to a one
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: defase person inside the house. But this year there's no address.
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna wait for you at the gate.
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna wait for you, please, And.
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: Somebody's really quick, are you with a pais now? Yeah?
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: Their property. There's no address here.
• 26:36
  Speaker 5: So I have to meet the denialists or the police
• 26:38
  Speaker 5: whoever down at the gatehouse.
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: I'll bring them up here.
• 26:46
  Speaker 5: Know you're like, all, no, they're not moving.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: Just bring nobody up here really quick, And in the
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: less hours we learn obvious possible cause of death has
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: been ruled out.
• 27:05
  Speaker 8: Both individuals tested negative for carbon monoxide. An initial interrogation
• 27:12
  Speaker 8: was conducted of mister Hackman's pacemaker. This revealed that his
• 27:17
  Speaker 8: nasty event was recorded on February seventeenth, twenty twenty five.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: Doctor William Ronney, What does that mean his last event?
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: You mean, for instance, the last time the pacemaker was on, No.
• 27:30
  Speaker 12: The last time the pacemaker interacted with his heart. His
• 27:34
  Speaker 12: heart was monitored by the pacemaker. And what that says
• 27:40
  Speaker 12: to me? Once you die, the pacemaker continues to send spikes,
• 27:46
  Speaker 12: but the heart no longer responds. There is no event
• 27:50
  Speaker 12: that the heart is responding to, and they see when
• 27:54
  Speaker 12: that is. So that would be like the traditional all
• 27:57
  Speaker 12: American heart attack happened on that day, and after that event,
• 28:03
  Speaker 12: the heart no longer was beating. That's the event he's
• 28:07
  Speaker 12: talking about.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: Okay, Cheryl McCollum and joining US coll Case Investigative Research Institute.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: Cheryl, my first thought was carbon.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: Monoxide, but then when I heard the door was a jar,
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: in my mind, that ruled out carbon monoxide.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: And the fact that the dog is dead too, to me,
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: that rules out accident.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Because you want me to think Gene Hackman had an
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: accident and died, then his wife had an accident and died,
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: and then the dog had an accident and died.
• 28:40
  Speaker 10: No, agreed. So what we would do in this situation
• 28:44
  Speaker 10: is look at what is there and what's not there.
• 28:47
  Speaker 10: Some of the things that aren't there, there's no blood,
• 28:50
  Speaker 10: there's no weapon, there's no shellcasing, there's no sign of
• 28:53
  Speaker 10: a struggle. Nothing of value is missing. There's no note.
• 28:57
  Speaker 10: Most importantly, there was.
• 28:59
  Speaker 12: Not a now one one call that came from.
• 29:01
  Speaker 10: Inside that residence for help. So whatever transpired, it does
• 29:06
  Speaker 10: seem happen very quickly. Again, it's going to go back
• 29:09
  Speaker 10: to patterns.
• 29:10
  Speaker 7: You have two.
• 29:11
  Speaker 10: Animals that were not in a crate that survives. Why
• 29:14
  Speaker 10: was the one in the crate. People that are close
• 29:17
  Speaker 10: to them may be able to tell law enforcement the
• 29:20
  Speaker 10: German Shepherd is put in the crate. When you know,
• 29:23
  Speaker 10: mister Hackman goes for a walk, he had sunglasses and.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: A cane and was dressed. Perhaps he was.
• 29:28
  Speaker 10: Headed outside when either he fail or whatever occurred happened.
• 29:33
  Speaker 10: But that's the kind of thing you're going to run
• 29:35
  Speaker 10: into is two almost parallel investigations. You're going to look
• 29:39
  Speaker 10: at what happened to mister Hackman and what happened to
• 29:42
  Speaker 10: his wife, and you would almost do two separate investigations there.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: You're absolutely correct, two separate investigations. And where're learning, according
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: to law enforcement, that they can't determine who died first,
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: which could be critical into solving the mystery of Gene
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Heickman's death.
• 30:00
  Speaker 8: Listen, that's a very hard thing to determine. Even with
• 30:03
  Speaker 8: the assistance of Omi. We asked that question because that's
• 30:06
  Speaker 8: a question that we want answered. That's a very hard
• 30:10
  Speaker 8: determination to make, and I don't think even Ohmi could
• 30:13
  Speaker 8: make that determination based on the initial autopsy.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: What about it, doctor Moroni? Determining who died first, it's.
• 30:18
  Speaker 12: Impossible, you know what time he died, you don't have
• 30:22
  Speaker 12: a timeline for when she died and how it happened
• 30:26
  Speaker 12: two separate investigations. Then you can't determine who was first
• 30:31
  Speaker 12: unless there was security cameras, and there's no security cameras.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: Well, wait a minute, hold on morony.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: Isn't it true if one of them died substantially significantly
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: before the other, the degree of decomposition would be different.
• 30:48
  Speaker 12: It would have to be a good full half day
• 30:51
  Speaker 12: or full day before. You can't really tell a couple hours,
• 30:55
  Speaker 12: But if it was like a full half.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Day before, crime stores with Nancy Grace, Dude, Jessica Finn
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: joining us seeing your vestcative reporter us son, where were
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: the other two dogs?
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: Do we know?
• 31:17
  Speaker 12: You know?
• 31:17
  Speaker 7: From the nine to one one calls, we hear the
• 31:19
  Speaker 7: dogs barking in the background. We're, of course assuming that
• 31:21
  Speaker 7: those were the hackman's dogs. We don't know where they
• 31:25
  Speaker 7: were found.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: But the way the nine on one calls play out,
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: it sounds.
• 31:28
  Speaker 7: Like they're just kind of roaming around on the property.
• 31:30
  Speaker 7: It doesn't seem like they're inside anywhere. It just seems
• 31:34
  Speaker 7: like they're kind of like free wheeling outside. From just
• 31:37
  Speaker 7: from the way the ninmal one calls are the way
• 31:40
  Speaker 7: that echoing of the dogs barking in the background can
• 31:42
  Speaker 7: be heard.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: Now we hear the Santa Fe County share of Adam
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: and Dooza stating he's trying to create a reverse timeline again.
• 31:52
  Speaker 8: That'll be part of our investigation. We will look and
• 31:56
  Speaker 8: try to gain access to the cell phones. We'll be
• 31:58
  Speaker 8: analyzing cell phone data, phone calls, text messages, events, photos
• 32:03
  Speaker 8: in the cell phone to try to piece a timeline together.
• 32:06
  Speaker 8: One of the things is in an investigation is we
• 32:09
  Speaker 8: tried a piece of timeline together, usually before the event happens,
• 32:13
  Speaker 8: and that gives us a lot of information. But in
• 32:15
  Speaker 8: this case, it seems like we're doing a reverse timeline.
• 32:18
  Speaker 8: We're doing a timeline from the time of death and
• 32:20
  Speaker 8: the autopsy and the results, and we're going to start
• 32:22
  Speaker 8: working our way backwards. We're going to do both and
• 32:24
  Speaker 8: then hopefully make a determination what may have happened to
• 32:28
  Speaker 8: both the individuals.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: Okay, a reverse timeline based on digital what does that mean?
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: Looking at cell phone data, computer data? Who were they
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: speaking to when? What were they looking up on Google?
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: When's the last time they logged in or made a
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: phone call? Not only that when was the last time
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: people call them and they didn't pick up. There's more
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: too it, Cheryl McCollum, think.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Back, dare I bring his name up?
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: Conjure him? Alex Murdog. The digital data in that case
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: was overwhelming. As a matter of fact, I believe that's
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: how the state finally proved Murdod guilty of double murder
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: and the deaths of his wife Maggie and son Paul.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: The cell phone data compared with the geopositioning and the
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: nav system in his suburban really nailed his coffin. So
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: what do you make of the fact that they're making
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: a reverse timeline, Cheryl? And also they have seies pursua
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: to Warren. Of course their daytime planners. What does that
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: tell you they're looking at So.
• 33:36
  Speaker 10: They're going to take that planner and they're going to
• 33:38
  Speaker 10: cross check it with what was looked at on the phone, dates, calls, appointments,
• 33:44
  Speaker 10: any future event they had that the person that actually
• 33:47
  Speaker 10: found them was somebody owned the property doing work that
• 33:50
  Speaker 10: would be in their planner. So they're going to look
• 33:53
  Speaker 10: at all that to make sure everything lines up and
• 33:56
  Speaker 10: coincides with what they know the Hackmans were doing. The
• 34:00
  Speaker 10: weeks before in what they had planned week after.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, Josh Ritter, you and I've tried on
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: different sides of the fence, of course, many many homicide cases,
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: and I look at planners to determine did they have
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: plans in the future. In other words, when people have
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: plans in the future, they don't usually commit suicide. If
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: they're looking forward to something like my twins spring break.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to that. Okay, that's just an example.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: But also for forensic reasons, for proative reasons, you look
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: to see who's the last person there the day that
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: his pacemaker stopped working, what were they doing, who was
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: in the home, what was happening. That's why they're looking
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: at the planner.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: Josh.
• 34:43
  Speaker 13: Absolutely, they're trying to reconstruct the events leading up to it.
• 34:46
  Speaker 13: And to your point too, are there events, are there
• 34:50
  Speaker 13: appointments in the future, and if so, does that show
• 34:54
  Speaker 13: planning for the future, which you might be able to
• 34:56
  Speaker 13: rule that suicide. But did they missappointments that know one
• 35:00
  Speaker 13: noticed and should those people have noticed? Do they have
• 35:03
  Speaker 13: an appointment with someone and that person they didn't meet
• 35:06
  Speaker 13: that appointment with that person, and that person didn't alert
• 35:08
  Speaker 13: anyone or didn't seem bothered by the fact that they
• 35:13
  Speaker 13: missed this event. So I think they the planner can
• 35:16
  Speaker 13: be a treasure tros of information as far as they're
• 35:20
  Speaker 13: not only their mundane day to day life, but also
• 35:23
  Speaker 13: the events that they had planned before and after and
• 35:26
  Speaker 13: what that might provide some insight into this investigation.
• 35:29
  Speaker 8: So, you know, I respect the mister Hackman's and Miss
• 35:34
  Speaker 8: aracauas regard for privacy. I think everybody here understands that
• 35:38
  Speaker 8: they were very private individuals and a very private family.
• 35:41
  Speaker 8: There is no surveillance as we know of right now
• 35:44
  Speaker 8: in the interior of the residence or the exterior of
• 35:47
  Speaker 8: the residence that is going to help us determine our
• 35:49
  Speaker 8: time nine or events that happened.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: Now was Santa Fe County Sheriff speaking Mendoza, What does
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: that mean to me? No surveillance, No surveillance, And let
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: me clarify that, Cheryl McCollum. There's no home surveillance in
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: the home of a multi time.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: Oscar winner Rick, No surveillance.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: Hence the theories of murder and or suicide are abounding.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: To Jessica Finn, carbon monoxide and I've got a huge
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: list of celebs and others that die of carbon monoxide
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: has been ruled out. The levels tested in the autopsy
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: prove it wasn't CM. That was everyone's first thought. That's
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: been put to bed. No one sees suicide either. It's
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: just doesn't make sense that they would both commit suicide
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: in different rooms with no suicide note falling like that,
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: appearing as if they had fallen. I mean, hold on,
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: doctor William Moroney, the method and assessment of suicide is
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: not consistent with the way these bodies were found.
• 37:00
  Speaker 12: No suicide usually means there's some kind of preparation. It
• 37:05
  Speaker 12: doesn't always mean a note, but it means somebody's taken
• 37:09
  Speaker 12: time to send a message and organize clothes, pills. They
• 37:16
  Speaker 12: look nice. There's text messages and other communications would give
• 37:21
  Speaker 12: you a clue that suicide is a possibility, and that
• 37:25
  Speaker 12: usually follows treatment resistent depression. That we don't have any
• 37:30
  Speaker 12: sign that these people have major depressive disorders, not at all.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, Jessica Finn, the us son.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: The daughter says that her dad was actually doing great,
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: doing pilates and yoga multiple times a week. They were
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: going out to dinner with friends. Nothing suggests to suicide.
• 37:51
  Speaker 7: Yeah, Gene and his wife really took care of their health.
• 37:54
  Speaker 7: They were really active in the community. She made sure
• 37:57
  Speaker 7: that he was in top notch shape. He was doing
• 38:00
  Speaker 7: plot is, like you said, staying fit. The whole investigation
• 38:06
  Speaker 7: gives us more questions than there are answers. I mean,
• 38:09
  Speaker 7: for both of these people to have died and they
• 38:11
  Speaker 7: looked like they dropped where they were standing in two
• 38:13
  Speaker 7: separate places in the home, you know, we can't figure
• 38:16
  Speaker 7: out whether this was what kind of foul play that
• 38:19
  Speaker 7: the police are investigating at this moment. But yeah, it
• 38:22
  Speaker 7: certainly is a conundrum. It doesn't seem like these people
• 38:26
  Speaker 7: were in distress together and they were very much in
• 38:29
  Speaker 7: love from what we've heard.
• 38:30
  Speaker 8: No, I don't think, you know, there was any indication
• 38:33
  Speaker 8: that that. Again, there was no trauma indicated on the body.
• 38:37
  Speaker 8: I'm assuming if they would have fell or you know,
• 38:40
  Speaker 8: injured themselves or head injury or brain injury, that would
• 38:43
  Speaker 8: have been discovered by that pathologist. So I'm going to
• 38:44
  Speaker 8: say that they weren't so too.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany Marshall, there's no indication this was an accident.
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: You just heard the Santa Fe sheriff say that, and Plus,
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: if one had an accident, what the other has an
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: accident and the dog has an accident. That doesn't make sense.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: We're not getting that the dogs starved, nothing like that.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: So the sheriff is saying, no accident, there's no carbon monoxide.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: Let's deal with suicide, because I don't see suicide either.
• 39:14
  Speaker 6: I don't see suicide either, And that's why I asked earlier,
• 39:17
  Speaker 6: was that there's some catastrophic event looming in their lives
• 39:21
  Speaker 6: which would would make them want not want to live.
• 39:24
  Speaker 6: You know, Nancy, there's an untold story here that I'm
• 39:27
  Speaker 6: very curious about, and that is, even though he was
• 39:30
  Speaker 6: well and doing pilates and taking walks, had she become
• 39:34
  Speaker 6: his caregiver. I do to treat couples in my practice
• 39:37
  Speaker 6: where one partner is ill and the other one is
• 39:39
  Speaker 6: the caregiver, and especially when it's a family member, they
• 39:43
  Speaker 6: typically refuse respite care, meaning they don't want other people.
• 39:46
  Speaker 12: To come and help.
• 39:47
  Speaker 6: They want to provide the primary care because they love
• 39:50
  Speaker 6: their family member, and the caregiver's health typically breaks down
• 39:55
  Speaker 6: over time. In fact, statistically we know that there's a
• 39:59
  Speaker 6: greater life likelihood of a caregiver dying. We maturely when
• 40:03
  Speaker 6: they are taking care of a family member. So had
• 40:05
  Speaker 6: her health been breaking down, and in that case, doctor's
• 40:09
  Speaker 6: records and also looking at that day planner and seeing
• 40:12
  Speaker 6: how many appointments was she going to, how many appointments
• 40:14
  Speaker 6: was was she taking him?
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: Dr Bethany, everything you're saying is correct. However, friends that
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: just just went out with them say that they were happy, healthy,
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: doing really well, giving no sign that his wife, Betsy
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: was on the decline. As a matter of fact, she
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: had devoted herself to him. I'm just not seeing suicide, So,
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Doctor William Roney, there are only so many CODs cause
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: of death. You've got suicide ruled out, there's no trauma,
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: there's no OD. You've got carbon monoxide ruled out here,
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: the sheriff ruling out accident. All that's left is what murder,
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: homicide and unexplained.
• 41:01
  Speaker 12: Yes, number one homicide, number two, accident, number three natural,
• 41:09
  Speaker 12: number four suicide, and number five would be indetermined. That's
• 41:17
  Speaker 12: our five pauses.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend.