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“Dems in Array.” · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's pod, we've got some brand new polling about
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Trump's response to the coronavirus that we'll talk about with
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Charlotte Swayze from Data for Progress. And we've got some
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: We'll also talk about a huge win for Democrats in Wisconsin,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: the string of major endorsements Joe Biden received this week
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: from Barack Obama, Bernie Sanders, and Elizabeth Warren, and how
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: the Democrats should talk about this crisis as we head
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: into an election against Donald Trump. But first, don't miss
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Pod Save the World this week. Former Secretary of the
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Navy Ray Mabus talks to Tommy about the Navy captain
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: who was fired for asking the government to protect his
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: sailors from a coronavirus outbreak on board the USS Theodore Roosevelt.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: And then best friend of the pod, Samantha Power joins
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: to talk about the failure of the UN and other
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: global institutions in responding to this pandemic. Also, buy Sam's
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: book if you haven't already, The Education of an Idealist.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: It is fantastic. Finally, don't miss our two podcasts that
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: dive into some of the non-political aspects of coronavirus. Six
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Feet Apart with Alex Wagner and America Dissected Coronavirus with Dr.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Abdul El-Sayed. bring you stories from the front lines and
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: expert analysis. Find them both wherever you get your podcasts.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: All right, Dan, we are going to start with something
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: that is all too rare these days. Good news.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: What?
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Is this about the Jordan documentary coming out this weekend?
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: It is not about that. No. On Monday, we finally
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: got the results from an election in Wisconsin that never
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: should have happened. an election where Republican politicians and conservative
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: judges forced tens of thousands of voters to risk their
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: lives in order to cast their ballot. They did everything
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: they could to make it harder to vote absentee. College
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: kids who were sent home when the virus hit couldn't vote.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: 97% of all polling locations in the city of Milwaukee
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: were closed. They pulled out all the stops so they
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: could hold on to a state Supreme Court seat that
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: would allow them to purge potentially hundreds of thousands of
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: voters from the rolls before this November. And yet They lost.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: In a state that's been decided by less than a
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: point for the last few elections, Jill Karofsky beat the
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: Trump-backed incumbent justice by over 10 points. A stunning upset
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: in Wisconsin. Dan, how did this happen?
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Great. It was great. It was just great. I had
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: convinced myself there was no... I think everyone, frankly, had
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: convinced themselves that there was no way the Democrats could
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: win this. I mean, the Democrat, the Wisconsin Democrats and
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: the DNC had a call on election day talking about
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: how this was likely to be a stolen election. And
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: we won. It was great.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: I didn't even like like usual with these special elections.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: I didn't even let myself hope that winning might be
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: one of the possible outcomes here just because of like
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: the conditions under which this election was held and the
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: fact that, you know, more polling locations were closed down
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: and in, in blue areas in the state. Um, I
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: was shocked. I think even Ben Wickler hero, uh, chair
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: of the Wisconsin democratic party was pretty shocked too.
• 3:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, like I, I eventually, because I'm stuck at
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: home and can't leave, got deep into the county by
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: county data as the results were coming in. But not
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: because I thought we could win, but because I wanted
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: to see the effects of Republican voter suppression in Milwaukee
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: County and elsewhere. And as I'm preparing myself to be
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: angry about the results, the more and more you look
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: at it, the more and more it becomes clear that
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: we might win a close race. And then you look
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: at the results and Joe Karofsky runs away with it.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: And it was amazing. And it is a credit to
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: obviously Wisconsin voters, but to her campaign and Ben Wickler
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: and the Wisconsin Democratic Party for coming up with a
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: strategy to navigate probably the most challenging electoral environment in
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: American history.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: So talk a little bit more about that strategy. How
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: do you think Democrats ended up winning a race that
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: seemed out of reach?
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Even before the election, The Supreme Court, the Wisconsin Supreme Court,
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: and others got involved in trying to steal the election
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: for the Republicans. The Wisconsin Democratic Party had, and the
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: Karofsky campaign, put in place a strategy to campaign during
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: a quarantine. It's important for people to understand that almost
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: every single campaign focuses all of their GOTV on person-to-person contact,
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: getting people in a room to make phone calls, getting
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: people to knock doors. having town halls and rallies where
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: you can see people and get them to sign voter
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: cards or to volunteer. And all of those things are illegal.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: So what do you in a shelter in place situation?
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: So what do you do? And there's a series of
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: fascinating articles about this one in the New York Times,
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: in particular, that goes through the digital techniques that the
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: Wisconsin Democrats across the campaign used. Some very new stuff,
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: like they recognize, like smaller state Campaigns like a state
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: Supreme Court campaign generally don't have the money to run.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: It's not effective to run digital ads on like Hulu
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: or YouTube. But because we're in a quarantine, the amount
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: of people watching those services is so far up that
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: it was a cost-effective spend. So they were buying ads,
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: pre-rolls on YouTube and on Hulu, very effective. They went
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: old school and did telephone town halls, which is something
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: that no one has done in a long time. And
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: the CrossFit campaign was getting, according to some of these reports, 6,000 people.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: on these telephone town halls, a product of obviously intense
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: interest in the election and people being at home with nothing,
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: no ability to leave, got them to get on these calls.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: And I think the other thing that was really important was,
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: and Ben talks about this in some of the interviews
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: he's done afterwards, is the Republican tactics were so brazen
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: and so offensive and the role the Supreme Court played
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: was so partisan that it outraged people to get involved, to,
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: you know, there was an absolute backlash to this voter
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: suppression and that helped move votes and get people to
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: fired up about an election they may not have otherwise
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: been fired up about.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a backlash, especially in, uh, communities of color. Um,
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: Ben noted, I mean, just the idea that Republicans were
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: going to make it as difficult as humanly possible to
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: vote safely in an election. so enraged, so many voters,
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: especially voters in places like Milwaukee, that they either figured
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: out a way to vote absentee for the first time
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: in their lives, or they risked their lives and stood
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: in very, very long lines. I mean, we should say
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: that usually absentee ballot voting in Wisconsin makes up like 10%,
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: 20% at most of the electorate. I think it was
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: like 70% or 80%, which means that the Wisconsin democratic
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: party and Oregon and progressive organizers basically trained an entire
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: electorate to vote absentee in the span of about 26 days.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: It was 26 days before the election that they realized
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: that there was a shutdown that they had to do this. And,
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: you know, Ben said they reached out to voters literally
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: millions of times via text, phone call, um, And so
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: I just think that the effort was incredible. And look,
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: on the flip side too, there was the Republican Party
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: chairman in Monroe County in Wisconsin told the New York Times,
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: he gave this excuse about why sort of Republican turnout
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: was low. While Republicans encouraged early and absentee voting, many
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: elderly either did not have the wherewithal to request absentee
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: ballots or the inclination to vote in person on April 7th.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: So there wasn't only a backlash that caused more Democrats
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: to want to vote. It was a backlash against their
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: own voters because their own Republican voters themselves were either
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: scared to go vote or couldn't figure out the absentee
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: ballot program because the Republican politicians tried to make it
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: harder to vote.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: It is– along those lines, one of the things that
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: the Wisconsin Democratic Party and others were doing was they
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: were literally doing– organizers doing one-on-one FaceTime tutorials with voters
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: on how to vote absentee.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: Right. It's leveraging every digital tool. The other thing that's
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: notable is when we talked about this, uh, in previous podcasts,
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: but the Supreme, the United States Supreme court weighed in
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: here in a partisan, very disturbing five, four decision to
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: force this election to happen and to prevent and to
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: prevent Democrats from making an all male election or, uh,
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: postpone the election. And if you want to demonstrate to
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: voters in the most crystal clear way why a state
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: Supreme Court election matters, have the United States Supreme Court
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: try to steal that election. So I think that also
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: helped draw very real attention to this and helped demonstrate
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: why this mattered, even if the primary that was on
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: this date was essentially no longer contested by this point.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: So what, if anything, can the results on Tuesday tell
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: us about November in Wisconsin?
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: I have read a lot of stories that talk about
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: how this is a super positive sign for Democrats, and
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: it means that the political environment is shifting. And I
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: want to be cautious about that. But there is a
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: lot of optimism there. So let me try to do
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: this in a on-brand, glass half full, glass half empty
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: sort of way.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: Give us the wet blanket.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: I'll give you the wet blanket, which is, and this
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: is like a real window into my mentality these days,
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: is We were all texting about this and in the
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Crooked Media Slackchains about how great this was, everyone sharing
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: the articles about the map of voter turnout and that
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: was exactly what a winning Wisconsin turnout would be in November.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: And I went and tried– I'm such a sad person,
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: but I tried to find the New York Times– I
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: went to find the New York Times article from June
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: 2012 because in 2012, the Democrats tried to recall Scott Walker.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: Scott Walker, despite being the subject of many, many protests
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: in a very engaged race between Democrats and Republicans, pretty
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: easily was able to stay in office. I wanted to
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: read one of the New York Times story about that
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: day was very similarly bullish about Republicans winning Wisconsin in 2012.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: And it turns out they were not because that's how
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: far we've come in eight years is the only line
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: about it is this gave some Republicans the possible idea
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: that they might possibly maybe have a chance at being
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: somewhat competitive in Wisconsin, which is how far Wisconsin's come.
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: In eight years.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: But like, so here's the things we should think about. One,
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: it is a special election. Two, and those are not
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: necessarily predictive of anything. Two, there was a Democratic primary
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: on this day. Even if the contest was largely over,
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: this was still a time when Biden and Bernie supporters
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: were turning out, mostly by mail. And there was not
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: a similar Republican contest on the ballot, even though Trump
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: did win his uncontested primary and the RNC and his
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: own campaign congratulated him for it, which I think is
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: pretty funny.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: Congratulations. You beat no one.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: Well, I will say, though, even about that. So Trump
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: received six hundred and seventeen thousand votes in his primary.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: Dan Kelly, who was the conservative justice that lost to
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: Jill Karofsky, received six hundred and ninety two thousand votes.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: So it is a little interesting that the conservative justice
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: who lost still received more votes than Trump in a primary,
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: which means there are some people who went to vote
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: who voted for Dan Kelly and just decided not to
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: even check the box for Donald Trump. in his primary
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: where he was uncontested.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: I would love to find those voters and survey them
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: and try to figure out what the deal is there.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: Maybe they just forgot.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: But here's the very positive. Like, that's all context for
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: why we should not get overconfident about this. But the
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: important point here, and this is the part about these
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: special elections that is transferable, is it was a gigantic
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: test of the organization Ben Wickler of the Wisconsin Democratic
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: Party has built. And they crushed that test, right?
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: And like we talked about, you talked about how it
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: was like whatever it is, 27 days they had to
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: figure all this out. But they could accomplish that in
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: those 27 days because of all the work they've done
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: for the last couple of years to have a real
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: organization that was recruiting volunteers, that was engaging in activism
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: from the very beginning to prepare for this moment. And
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: in a close race, that could be all the difference.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: And so I think we should feel very bullish on
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: the sort of organization Democrats are going to have in
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: Wisconsin on election day, even if this election may not
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: tell us a ton about what Republican turnout would look
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: like under a, quote unquote, return to normal electoral scenario?
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, look, turnout was 52% of 2016. So it's
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: a completely different electorate. But you can start comparing turnout
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: a little bit better to the election for a state
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: Supreme Court seat that was held in April of 2019,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: which was an off-year election. And the liberal justice sort
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: of improved across the board from the challenger back in
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: April of 2019, which is a good sign. You look
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: at counties like Dane County, where Madison is, the college town,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: and turnout and Democratic margins were both up in dane
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: county even as a lot of college students didn't vote
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: this time so that's a very good sign that a
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: traditional democratic stronghold is getting even bluer and turnout is
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: up um so you know there are even with the
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: caveat that turnout was much lower than it will be
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: in november of 2020 there are signs in some of
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: the suburban margins and some of the bluer places that
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: that Democratic turnout and Democratic margins specifically over Republicans in
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: sort of the traditionally blue and some purple areas are
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: improving as we get closer to November in Wisconsin, which
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: is a very good sign.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: We should just say, explain why this matters so much,
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: because some people might be saying, you guys are so
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: fucking desperate for good news that you've just spent 20
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: minutes talking about a Wisconsin Supreme Court race.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, no, let's do that.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: And so state Supreme Courts matter a ton. Just as
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: we think about how important it is for a progressive
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: majority on the United States Supreme Court, for all the
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: exact same reasons, state Supreme Courts matter. And Republicans had
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: built up a huge majority on the Wisconsin State Supreme
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: Court that had ruled many, many times in very partisan
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: decisions that were very favorable to Governor Walker, the Koch brothers,
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: and general Republican efforts to suppress the vote. But more specifically,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: in this situation, there is currently a case that has
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: worked its way through the Wisconsin courts that where a
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: conservative law firm is trying to force the state to
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: purge 209,000 voters from the voter rolls. The state election
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: commission has refused to do that because they believe that
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: based on the limits of their data, that would kick
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: a lot of eligible voters off the voter rolls and
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: therefore disenfranchising them. And so the conservatives have been pushing this.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: That case has been deadlocked on the Supreme Court 3-3.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Kelly had recused himself because he's on the ballot. And
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: so with Karosky replacing Kelly, there is a chance that
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: we will end up with a 4-3 decision that could
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: prevent that voter purge. So that's why these things matter.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: And it's just this important edict that we have to
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: remind people all the time, which is the best way
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: to win national elections is to win local elections first,
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: because it gives you the best chance of having a
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: fair election day.
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Last question on this. What do you think this means
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: for the political fight over whether we should give everyone
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: the option of voting by mail in November?
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: You would think in a normal, rational world that Republicans
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: would look at this and say, man, that did not
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: work out for us. We should obviously let people vote.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: Maybe they would be personally offended and disturbed by the
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: images of these people standing in line, potentially getting coronavirus
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: just because they decided to be assholes. I don't think
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: that's what's going to happen. I actually think it's going
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: to cause them to double down on the suppression. The
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: takeaway from this will not be why did– we didn't
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: do vote by mail, therefore there will– we need vote
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: by mail. It'll be what other suppression techniques can we do?
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: What other voter purchase can we do? What other ways
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: can we limit polling places in urban Democratic areas? What
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: other ways can we make it harder for people to
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: vote in a pandemic? And so it makes me, I
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: never bet on the goodwill of Republicans. And I suspect
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: that that will be a winning bet this time as well.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Which means that Democrats have leverage when it comes to
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: the next economic relief bill. And we have launched sort
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: of a call-in campaign so that you can call your
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: representatives and make sure the Democrats fight for voter protection
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: resources in the next bill. Go to votesaveamerica.com slash call.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: You can be connected via text or email or phone
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: call via your representative. There's even a script we have
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: for you. But the main things we want people to
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: ask for are $ 2 billion in safe election money for states,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: more vote by mail, more early voting. and making sure
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: that every in-person voting location should have what they need
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: to run a safe election. This is what we're asking for,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: and it's very, very important that these measures end up
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: in the next relief bill. All right, so Democrats got
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: good news in Wisconsin. They also got some good news
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: on the party unity front, as Joe Biden won the
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: endorsements this week of Bernie Sanders, Barack Obama, and Elizabeth Warren.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: As Brian Schatz tweeted, Dems in array. Let's start with Bernie.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: who endorsed Biden in a joint live video appearance on Monday.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: Here's a clip.
• 18:31
  Speaker 5: We've got to make Trump a one-term president, and we
• 18:34
  Speaker 5: need you in the White House. So I will do
• 18:37
  Speaker 5: all that I can to see that that happens, Joe.
• 18:41
  Speaker 5: And I know that there is an enormous responsibility on
• 18:44
  Speaker 5: your shoulders right now. And it's imperative that all of
• 18:50
  Speaker 5: us work together to do what has to be done,
• 18:53
  Speaker 5: not only in this moment, but beyond this moment.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: So, Dan, I thought this was a very enthusiastic and
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: heartfelt endorsement on Bernie's part. I can't imagine what more
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: Biden would have wanted from this. What did you think?
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: I thought it was great. I thought when I originally
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: saw that they were going to do a Zoom conversation together,
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: I was nervous that it would be... Just awkward and strange.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: You and I have known each other for well over
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: a decade, and we're doing this, and it's still always
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: a little awkward. So Biden and Bernie, two people were
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: competing against each other three weeks ago. It seemed like
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: it could be a recipe for disaster. But it actually
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: went great, and it was compelling. And they had thought
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: out how to do this. The first question that Bernie
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: asked Biden about was about the minimum wage, because Biden
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: has been a supporter of the $ 15 minimum wage for
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: a long time, and it was an opportunity for Biden
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: to say to Bernie supporters, like here is an issue
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: where we agree, right? They started with an area of agreement,
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: which I thought was notable. And I was also just
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: struck by one, which Bernie, to his credit, has done
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: this whole campaign, has talked about the stakes of beating Trump,
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: whether he is a nominee or not, but also struck
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: by the fact that there seems to be a very
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: real respect and affection for each other that that came
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: through like this, not to say their best friends or
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: anything like that, but that they, that there was a
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: respect there and there was no sort of like awkward
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: grievance or tension or grudge. And I thought it was great.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: I think we have mostly rightly tended to downplay sort
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: of the importance of personal relationships and politics over the years.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: You know, because partly because we dealt with everyone being like,
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: you know, Barack Obama and John Boehner should go play
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: golf and then they'll solve all the world's problems.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: You have a drink with Mitch McConnell.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: Right, you have a drink with Mitch McConnell. And obviously
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: that's not how politics mostly works. People are driven by
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: sort of larger political and structural incentives. But I do
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: think on the margins, in some cases, having good relationships
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: with people in politics ends up paying off. Joe Biden
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: is someone who has a lot of very strong, good
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: personal relationships. And so far the focus has been like,
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: you know, his relationships with people on the other side
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: of the aisle and how useful or not that is.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: But I think Barack Obama for a very long time
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: has had a good relationship with Bernie Sanders. And Bernie
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: Sanders likes Joe Biden and Joe Biden likes Bernie Sanders.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: And what could have been a very contentious end to
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: a primary, I think that, you know, there were larger
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: forces at play, which is that Bernie Sanders believes Republican
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: deeply that Donald Trump is the most dangerous threat to
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: our country and thinks that beating him is the most
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: important thing ever. But he also likes Joe Biden. And
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: that came through in that video.
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: It's like good relationships between Democrats and Republicans is not
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: going to cause Republicans to stop doing Republican things.
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: But good relationships within the party, particularly in the context
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: of primary, can matter, right? And I was struck by
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: how some of these stories talked about how one of
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: the things that Bernie really liked about Biden is that
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: when Bernie was new, and he was either in the
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: House or in the Senate, and Biden had been around
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: for a long time, Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, Chairman
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: of the Foreign Relations, a very senior member, that Biden
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: was always very nice to him, right? Like a lot
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: of people have become very nice to Bernie and given
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: him more attention and respect in the last few years
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: since he's become the leader of an incredible political movement.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: But fewer people were respectful and friendly to him when
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: he was just this democratic socialist who caucused with the
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: Democrats and was often the lone voice opposing democratic ideas
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: and the fact that he appreciated how Biden had treated
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: him then and that bore fruit in this situation.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about our old boss who stepped
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: into the 2020 campaign for the first time on Tuesday
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: to endorse his former vice president in a 12-minute video
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: where he praised Biden's leadership qualities, praised Bernie Sanders' progressive vision,
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: and laid out the stakes in November. Here's a clip.
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: But if there's one thing we've learned as a country
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: from moments of great crisis, it's that the spirit of
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: looking out for one another can't be restricted to our
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: homes or our workplaces or our neighborhoods or our houses
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: of worship. It also has to be reflected in our
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: national government. The kind of leadership that's guided by knowledge
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: and experience, honesty and humility, empathy and grace, That kind
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: of leadership doesn't just belong in our state capitals and
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: mayor's offices. It belongs in the White House. And that's
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: why I'm so proud to endorse Joe Biden for president
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: of the United States. Choosing Joe to be my vice
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: president was one of the best decisions I ever made.
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: And he became a close friend. And I believe Joe
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: has all the qualities we need in a president right now.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: Dan, what'd you think of the video?
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: It was sort of an out-of-body experience. Like I felt
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: like it's been so long since we've seen Barack Obama speak,
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: you know, something that obviously we lived for ever, every
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: single day, several times a day, like watching the speeches,
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: you writing as a speeches and be sometimes editing the
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: speeches and then to have him speak what, like it
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: was surreal and very comforting.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Right. It was like political comfort to see Barack Obama.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: I realize you're not going to expect anything else from us.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Like the two of us can be like, I kind
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: of hated the video. That guy's boring.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: You know what?
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Two former Obama aides say they love Barack Obama's endorsement video.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: And you know what? You can be biased and you
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: can be right too. And we are both in this situation.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Exactly right.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: And you know what? 95% of Democrats agree with us.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: So I'm cool with that.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, I thought he did a few things in
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: that video that are notable. First, that he sort of
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: situated Joe Biden as uniquely suited for the moment that
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: we're in. You know, he started talking about the pandemic,
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: which also struck me because it's the first time we've
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: seen Barack Obama tweet a few times about the pandemic,
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: but it's the first time we've heard him speak about
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: maybe the greatest crisis in our lifetimes. So that was interesting.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: But he sort of at the very beginning talks about
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: in that clip that we heard how, you know, we're
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: seeing the leadership we need at this moment in cities
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: and in states and in our communities and the way
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: we treat each other. And then he sort of, you know,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: slyly says, and we don't just need that leadership in
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: all those places. It belongs in the White House, meaning, yeah,
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: it's not fucking there now. And Joe Biden is the
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: guy to provide it, which I think was I think
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: it was better than just him, you know, touting all
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden's random qualities like he's trying to set up
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: Biden as the candidate for this moment in time vis-a-vis Trump.
• 25:43
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: I thought that was a very effective part of the announcement,
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: which was that he took things that we have heard
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: Barack Obama say about Joe Biden. We've heard Joe Biden
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: make the case for himself along his lines about, you know,
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: his life experiences, his advocacy for working class people, but
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Obama rooted it in this moment. And we've talked about
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: how Biden's message that felt somewhat, I think, potentially outdated
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: at times during the primary under a different political environment
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: is very relevant in this moment. And the context around
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: it changes. And I thought Obama made that case in
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: a very effective way.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: And yet I also find it notable that, you know,
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: as he was talking about Bernie, you know, he said,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: if I were running today, I wouldn't run the same
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: race or have the same platform as I did in 2008.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: Democrats need to be bold. He said the Affordable Care
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: Act and the Paris Agreement. aren't enough when it comes
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: to health care and climate. Talked about how Biden has
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: the most progressive platform of any Democrat in history. I
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: thought that was sort of interesting because, yes, Biden has
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: a lot of leadership qualities that are a perfect fit
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: for this moment. And yet he wanted to remind Democrats
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: that we have to be even bolder and more ambitious
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: than when he ran for office, partly because the times
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: have changed and also partly because this pandemic and this
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: crisis has sort of highlighted a lot of the inequality
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: in our society that existed long before the pandemic.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: The other thing I'd say is Obama delivered the shit
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: out of that video.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he did. Tommy and I were talking about this
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: yesterday on the live stream. How many times have we
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: seen him record a video where he is either tired
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: or annoyed that he has to record the video or
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: maybe right for the first time? And none of those
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: things were apparent in the video he recorded for Biden.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: Well, just as a little bit of context on that
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: is that for eight years, the last thing that Barack
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Obama did on almost every Friday was record the weekly
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: YouTube address. And if he was going to sit down
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: and record the weekly YouTube address, he would record other
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: videos that had to be done. And oftentimes that list
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: would pile up with things that even under the best
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: circumstances seemed maybe not like his favorite thing to do.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: So he would sit down, he would do the weekly
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: address and then be like, and sir, next we have
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: a video message to the local Elks Club and we
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: have our birthday tribute to Patrick Leahy. And it was
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: like probably in hindsight, putting his least favorite thing as
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: the last thing he had to do every week before
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: he went home to have dinner with his family was
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: a scheduling mistake. But like when I saw what I,
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: you know, you and I sort of came to understand
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: that this would be part, maybe a 12 minute Address
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: the idea that Barack Obama is going to sit there
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: and deliver well 12 minutes of direct-to-camera remarks seemed impossible
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: to imagine. But you can sort of tell he's been–
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: he had a lot that he wanted to get off
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: his chest, both about Joe Biden and leadership in the
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: White House and in the Republican Party. And also like
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: the rest of us, he's been stuck at his house
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: and not being able to talk to a lot of people.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: So he– I think he relished the opportunity to communicate
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: with the world in a way he hasn't done in
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: a long time.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: I was pleasantly surprised by, you know, the extent to
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: which he got a lot of that off his chest
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: about Republicans. I mean, he said Republicans occupying the White
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: House and running the Senate are not interested in progress.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: They're interested in power. He said the other side has
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: a propaganda network with little regard for the truth. On
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: the other hand, pandemics have a way of cutting through
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: a lot of noise and spin to remind us of
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: what is real and what is important. We need Americans
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: of goodwill to unite in the great awakening against a
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: politics that too often has been characterized by corruption and carelessness, self-dealing, disinformation, ignorance,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: and just plain meanness. Not mincing words.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: No, it's great.
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: It was music to my ears.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: It made me excited for him to get out on
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: the virtual campaign trail.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah i can't wait for those zoom rallies i mean.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about that you know the new york times
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: had the backstory on the endorsement reported that obama tried
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: to quote accelerate the end game of the primary by
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: having a few conversations with bernie that helped him make
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: the decision to end his campaign. What did you think
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: of that whole story?
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: It seemed like a story that tried to make Obama
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: sound like Thanos. I think the real takeaway of this
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: is that against the recommendations of a lot of people,
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: he stayed neutral throughout this process so that When the
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: result was clear, he could be a person who was
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: seen as not having put their thumb on the scale
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: and could be involved in conversations about how do we
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: get to where we already are, right? Which is Biden
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: had locked it up. Was there someone in the party?
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: And this was the challenge. I think this goes a
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: little bit to 2016, when the challenge– like Obama eventually
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: in the end, in the 2016 election, after Clinton had
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: locked up the delegate race, helped play a role in
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: bringing that campaign to a conclusion. But because Obama– Clinton
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: were so closely associated, it was believed that Obama had
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: been so favorable to Hillary in that primary race, it
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: was hard for him to play that role. This time,
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: he stayed out of it and was able to bring
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: us to a place of unity that isn't– it's worth
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: putting this into context, which is in 2016 and 2008,
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: the Democratic primary ended and the opponent endorsed the nominee
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: in the summer. We have that process all wrapped up
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: in April and Which gives the Biden campaign a much
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: longer runway to build the infrastructure in the campaign they
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: need to take on Trump because they're not still fighting
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: a war on their left flank throughout April, May, and June.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: So on that note, what do you think the best
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: way for the Biden campaign to make the most of
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: this largely unsurprising endorsement by Obama?
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's like two contexts to talk
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: about this in. One is, let's say we return to
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: normal and Obama can barnstorm the country. And look, Obama
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: is this massive asset to the Biden campaign because he
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: is someone who can draw huge crowds and draw huge
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: press attention and is very popular in particularly with sets
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: of voters who Biden needs to persuade. The 4 million
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: Obama 2012 voters who sat out 2016, but also the
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: Obama Trump voters. So you have people who supported Trump
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: who are also favorable to Obama. people who are open
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: to voting for Trump who are also favorable to Obama.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: So Obama can make the case to them. And I
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: think the Biden campaign should pick moments where the two
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: of them are together because that will draw a lot
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: of attention, both on the campaign trail or in an
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: awkward Zoom conversation and an interview, right? Like you can
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: see a moment where the two of them doing an
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: interview together would get massive attention. And you could do
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: that in a traditional way where you would do 60
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: minutes after the best football game you can find on
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: the schedule, presuming there was football, which would get you
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: huge ratings. Or you could just produce it on your
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: own and get someone like Oprah or someone else to
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: moderate that conversation and put it up on the internet
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: to build, to sort of communicate more virally. But I
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: think Obama can do two specific things in addition to
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: being out there with Biden, which is one, testify to
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden the person. And that is going to matter
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: because for Trump to win, he has to tear down
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden the person.
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: And the second thing is, which he also did in
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: this video, which is raise the stakes on the election.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: I think no one better than Obama explains what's at
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: stake in an election and explain what happens if we
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: win and what happens if we lose, which will help
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: motivate people who may not have been super enthusiastic about
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden in this primary, young people who may not
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: feel a direct connection to him. Obama can help explain
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: why it matters that we elect Joe Biden.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: All right, the last major Biden endorsement of the week
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: was from Senator Elizabeth Warren, who released a video of
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: her own on Wednesday. Here is a clip.
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: Among all the other candidates I competed with in the
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: Democratic primary, there's no one I've agreed with 100% of
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: the time over the years. But one thing I appreciate
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: about Joe Biden is he will always tell you where
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: he stands. When you disagree, he'll listen. And not just listen,
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: but really hear you. and treat you with respect no
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: matter where you're coming from. And he's shown throughout this
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: campaign that when you come up with new facts or
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: a good argument, he's not too afraid or too proud
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: to be persuaded.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: So Dan, I love this endorsement because she personalized it
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: as someone who has disagreed with Biden, but still really
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: respects him in part because he's willing to listen and
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: learn and be open to new ideas. What did you think?
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: I agree.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: I thought it was a phenomenal endorsement. It spoke directly
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: to the people who may not be there for Biden yet.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: Because here you have Elizabeth Warren, a famous progressive who
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: became famous in part by battling with Joe Biden over
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: economic issues, explaining that Biden is someone who listens and
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: that he is a good person and that he can
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: be moved on these issues. And so I thought it
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: was incredible. It was a very well done video and
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: it's a very powerful message that they can be very
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: impactful with. some of the Democratic voters that Joe Biden
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: is going to need to persuade to get behind him.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: And not just as voters, but as volunteers and donors.
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break. And when we
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: come back, we'll have Charlotte Swayze from Data for Progress
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: to talk to us about some brand new polling on
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: Trump's handling of the coronavirus.
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: Now that the general election has unofficially begun, I want
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: to talk about how much Trump's response to the pandemic
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: might shape the race and what the most effective argument
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: might be about how he's handled the crisis. So with
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: us today is Charlotte Swayze, the vice president of polling
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: and data at Data for Progress, who completely nailed many
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: of the primary polls this season. Charlotte, thanks for being here.
• 35:42
  Speaker 6: Thanks so much for having me.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: So we talked to you guys a few weeks ago
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: about doing a poll that tested a Trump argument about
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: how great he's done handling this crisis against a few
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: different progressive arguments to see which ones voters found most persuasive,
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: which caused them to say they're less likely to vote
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: for Trump. Charlotte, do you want to talk about how
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: you guys went about conducting the poll?
• 36:08
  Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely. So we ran this as a message test. Basically,
• 36:11
  Speaker 6: what that means is that We split voters into a
• 36:14
  Speaker 6: couple of different random groups. We use a control group
• 36:17
  Speaker 6: where we show them kind of a standard message. In
• 36:20
  Speaker 6: this case, we're using one that's like Trump is on
• 36:22
  Speaker 6: Twitter too much picking fights and not like actually doing anything.
• 36:25
  Speaker 6: And then we show them each of our different groups.
• 36:29
  Speaker 6: We each show one of them our test message. So
• 36:32
  Speaker 6: we tested a couple of different things this time. We
• 36:35
  Speaker 6: tested like his response to the pandemic is costing lives.
• 36:39
  Speaker 6: We tested that the crisis shows we need structural economic change.
• 36:44
  Speaker 6: And we tested one that says that he slashed the
• 36:46
  Speaker 6: safety net in the middle of the crisis. And then
• 36:49
  Speaker 6: as our dependent variable, we test a couple of different things.
• 36:52
  Speaker 6: But the main one is we ask people if they're
• 36:54
  Speaker 6: planning to vote for Trump or Biden in the general election.
• 36:57
  Speaker 6: And because we've split them into random groups, we can
• 37:00
  Speaker 6: actually look at the differences in the proportion of people
• 37:03
  Speaker 6: who report intent to vote for Biden or Trump. and
• 37:07
  Speaker 6: figure out what the effect our messages had on that is.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: And just so people know, you know, so each respondent
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: in the poll gets a Trump message. And I think
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: the Trump message was Trump says he's done a great
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: job leading the country through a crisis that no one
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: saw coming. The pandemic would be much worse if he
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: hadn't banned travel from China. And he passed the largest
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: economic relief bill in history to save jobs and help workers.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: Democrats opposed the travel ban. held the economy hostage for
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: a wish list of radical leftist policies and care more
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: about blaming Trump than saving the country. So we gave
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: Trump a pretty good argument that he actually uses. It
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: was pretty fair.
• 37:44
  Speaker 6: Yeah, we tried to make them as realistic as possible.
• 37:46
  Speaker 6: So in this case, it was something that like you
• 37:48
  Speaker 6: actually hear being said.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: So what did you find was the most effective argument
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: of the various progressive arguments that you just mentioned that
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: we tested?
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so the one that.
• 38:01
  Speaker 6: Was most effective in our experiment was the one hitting
• 38:04
  Speaker 6: him on his failed corona response and how his response
• 38:08
  Speaker 6: to the pandemic and failure to kind of lead properly
• 38:11
  Speaker 6: is actually costing lives. Specifically, it talks about unavailability of tests,
• 38:16
  Speaker 6: a lack of ventilators, the fact that he didn't sufficiently
• 38:19
  Speaker 6: provide funds to let people have this pandemic response. And
• 38:24
  Speaker 6: that's the one that did best, actually.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: And what was the effect of that argument on the
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: horse race between Biden and Trump?
• 38:32
  Speaker 6: So we find like a 0.8% effect. It's a little
• 38:38
  Speaker 6: tricky to interpret, but basically how you can interpret that
• 38:40
  Speaker 6: is that it's moving people in that group, like shifting
• 38:44
  Speaker 6: the overall top line between Biden and Trump by 0.8%.
• 38:47
  Speaker 6: And that may not sound like a lot, but in
• 38:51
  Speaker 6: the scheme of things, that's actually a pretty significant effect.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, especially when you have a Trump message in there
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: as well. And then what was the next most effective message?
• 39:01
  Speaker 6: So the next most effective one was saying that he
• 39:03
  Speaker 6: had slashed the safety net during the pandemic. So cutting
• 39:07
  Speaker 6: people off of food stamps, things like that.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: And so then the least effective was the one about
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: structural economic change, which I said, I think it said,
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: this crisis shows we need to increase minimum wage, put
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: workers on corporate boards, limit CEO pay, stuff like that.
• 39:20
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that one actually had a little bit of backlash.
• 39:23
  Speaker 6: where people become like more likely to support Trump as
• 39:26
  Speaker 6: a result of hearing the message.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: Dan, what jumped out at you in the poll? And
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: what did you think of the messages that were more
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: effective here?
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: Well, a couple of things. One is that Trump actually
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: has good arguments for himself because with the arguments that
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: are tested in the poll where Trump is acting like
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: a normal president, where you say, you with Democrats to
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: address the crisis. Trump is working with local officials. That
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: actually is an effective argument. But the good news, so
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: that's bad news for Democrats. The good news is Trump
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: is temperamentally incapable of acting like a normal president. But
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: it does sort of, and this may even be something
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: that you could interpret down the line as a positive
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: in the political environment for Biden, is there does seem
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: to be in these very abnormal times a desire for
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: a president to do the normal things presidents do in crises.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: The second is I was very struck by how the
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: Trump cutting the social safety net was a very effective argument.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: And it does– like this needs to be further explored
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: down the line. But that the cruel Republican economic policies
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: that predated this crisis are looked at in a new,
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: more intense way in the context of this crisis as
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: we become to know more people. who have lost their
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: jobs or lost their wages. More people have a direct
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: connection to the people left behind in this economy right
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: now than they did in 4% unemployment a few months ago.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: I think that there is an interesting roadmap here for Democrats.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: But the thing that I think the cautionary note I'd
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: give everyone is that you go through all of this,
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: and despite being in this incredibly historic time, with this
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: massively fumbled response to a pandemic, to the economic crisis
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: where you're seeing 20 million people who have filed for
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: unemployment claims over the last several weeks, is the race
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: still remains a very, very close race. And the arguments
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: don't yet change the overall dynamic of a very close
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: race where Biden probably has a popular vote advantage and
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: Trump has an electoral college advantage. And we'll have to
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: see whether he can navigate that. But Biden has good arguments,
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: but we're still in a very, very close race.
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, we should say the horse race in
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: this was Biden 48, Trump 45. And that's obviously a
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: national popular vote lead right there. But if you start
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: doing a few of these arguments that move at 0.8
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: points or even a point or two in either direction,
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: it is the difference between a popular vote lead that
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: Trump could still win in the electoral college with and
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: one that starts to become difficult for him to make
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: up even if he does better in some of these
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: swing states. Um, Charlotte, what did you, why do you
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: think the messages, um, that tested most effective did so
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: were you surprised? Do you have any idea, thoughts on,
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: on why they might've been so effective?
• 42:29
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I was actually fairly surprised by these results as
• 42:34
  Speaker 6: I often am with our message tests, honestly. Um, I
• 42:37
  Speaker 6: didn't entirely expect sort of going over the fact that
• 42:41
  Speaker 6: Trump's actions are costing lives to be super effective with
• 42:45
  Speaker 6: voters just because like, I mean, I'm on Twitter. I
• 42:47
  Speaker 6: see that all day, every day. And I kind of
• 42:50
  Speaker 6: thought we'd hit saturation, but our results are really showing
• 42:53
  Speaker 6: that that's not true. Like for voters, for people who
• 42:56
  Speaker 6: are a little bit less online, like that is not
• 42:58
  Speaker 6: fully sunk in yet. And it's not something that's fully
• 43:01
  Speaker 6: baked into how they think about Trump. And it is
• 43:04
  Speaker 6: still very effective to kind of highlight these like genuinely
• 43:07
  Speaker 6: terrible things that were preventable that are happening.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. One thing that struck me is that the messages
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: that described in greater specificity the effects of his failure
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: to lead were more effective than messages that sort of
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: levied a judgment on him and his leadership itself, right?
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: The control one was about he's on Twitter too much
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: and he's not leading and he's pointing the finger at
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: governors and he's playing politics, but they didn't have as
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: many specifics about sort of why he's costing so many lives,
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: why he didn't give states the equipment they needed. And
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: then in the safety net specific cuts to social security, Medicaid,
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: the affordable care act, food stamps, those seem to have
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: a greater effect than just talking about Trump himself.
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 43:56
  Speaker 6: And that scans with what we've been seeing in our polling.
• 43:58
  Speaker 6: Like hitting him for not listening to experts and going
• 44:02
  Speaker 6: on Twitter and being erratic and unreliable just does not
• 44:06
  Speaker 6: really sink in with voters, especially persuadable voters. You have
• 44:10
  Speaker 6: to remember that this is a fairly narrow segment of
• 44:13
  Speaker 6: the population who's actually being moved in their opinion by
• 44:15
  Speaker 6: this messaging. Whereas talking about his actions and what he's
• 44:19
  Speaker 6: doing and the impacts is much more effective.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: Dan, what do you think about that? Because we've talked
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: about how we've seen other polls where Trump's, you know,
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: chaos and, you know, his picking fights actually did show
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: some effect on voters?
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: You know, I think it's a couple of things. One,
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: we have also seen in our battleground state polling that
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: the more specific the argument, the better it does, right?
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: Because people, I think, have a natural skepticism of political arguments.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: But if you, there's some detail that seems like it
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: is more research and specific and not like wrapped in
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: all this political rhetoric. Then it has proven better. So
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: that is consistent with what we've seen before. I think
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: this raises a very important point for progressives, particularly the
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: groups who will be out. The Biden campaign on the
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: super PACs, I was making the argument is there has
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: been this conversation happening among sort of the democratic political
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: world about how Trump's tweeting in his obsession with Twitter
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: is this like sort of killer argument against Trump. And
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: you see it in a lot of polling. But what
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: I think is important is the tweeting itself is not
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: the problem. Whenever we have that conversation, I always think like,
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: how would we be thinking about this in a world
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: where Trump just won? People would be like, did the
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: Democrats really just spend a year making an argument about
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: Trump being on Twitter too much? Like, no fucking wonder
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: we lost. But Twitter, like the argument that we have
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: seen that does work against Trump, for Trump, is that
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: Trump is obsessed with himself. And Twitter is just the
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: most visual manifestation of that. It's not that he's doing
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: these things on Twitter. It's that he is doing them.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: It's not that he's saying these things on Twitter. It's
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: that he's saying them. And so you have to connect
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: Trump's incompetence, his chaotic behavior, his obsession with himself with
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: actual consequences for people. And the messages in here that
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: did very well are ones where you understand the consequences,
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: where he's not listening to experts, right? It's not just
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: an act he did. It says something about him that
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: he didn't listen to experts. It's consistent with a perception
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: of a lot of voters have about him.
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: It seems like you have to make sure you nail
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: the costs of the chaos and the costs of the
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: tweeting and the costs of the focus on himself and
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: the ego for actual people. And so to constantly keep
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: the human costs of his decisions and his leadership failures
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: sort of at the top of every argument for voters, right? Charlotte,
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: is that what you would say too?
• 46:46
  Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely. I think the Describing his actions as terrible
• 46:51
  Speaker 6: as they may be, unless you connect it specifically to
• 46:53
  Speaker 6: something that happened, is not as persuasive to this segment
• 46:57
  Speaker 6: of the population. Whereas if you can be like, okay,
• 47:01
  Speaker 6: he's erratic and didn't plan well and is obsessed with
• 47:04
  Speaker 6: his poll numbers. Therefore, people are literally dying because of
• 47:08
  Speaker 6: a failure to act. That is just much more impactful.
• 47:12
  Speaker 6: And I think it keeps it very real for people.
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: So you also gave voters a series of 12 statements
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: about the latest developments in the federal government's coronavirus response
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: and asked how concerned they were by each one. What
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: are some of the main findings there?
• 47:27
  Speaker 6: I mean, I think the main finding there is that
• 47:29
  Speaker 6: it's a lot of it is pretty heavily driven by partisanship.
• 47:32
  Speaker 6: Like we find Democrats being very concerned about pretty much
• 47:36
  Speaker 6: all of the sort of Trump action flavored things. So
• 47:39
  Speaker 6: let me just grab like an example of So like
• 47:42
  Speaker 6: Trump has refused to use his power to order American
• 47:45
  Speaker 6: companies to build equipment like ventilators and masks. Like we
• 47:48
  Speaker 6: find Democrats very concerned at like 70% whereas Republicans were
• 47:52
  Speaker 6: only seeing kind of 20%. And I think that comes
• 47:56
  Speaker 6: back to one of the things we saw in these
• 47:57
  Speaker 6: questions is this real reluctance to criticize Trump from Republicans.
• 48:03
  Speaker 6: Like even when we try to set up these frameworks
• 48:05
  Speaker 6: where we're describing specific harms, we're describing like specifically failings
• 48:11
  Speaker 6: that he has, people are just not really willing to
• 48:15
  Speaker 6: take that step and say that they're concerned about it
• 48:17
  Speaker 6: or say that they agree he should have acted differently.
• 48:21
  Speaker 6: But describing those things to them does make them more
• 48:23
  Speaker 6: likely to support Democrats. So it is sinking in in
• 48:26
  Speaker 6: a way.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I noticed that because probably the most concern they
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: were of any of the 12 statements had to do
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: with testing and the lack of testing. Over 50% of
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: voters find the lack of ample coronavirus testing to be
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: very concerning. An additional 21% of voters find the situation
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: somewhat concerning. So that's 71%. But notably, the way that
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: we phrased that one, Trump wasn't really part of it.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: So they could be critical of the lack of testing,
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: but you didn't necessarily have to you didn't have to
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: make it as a result of something that Trump specifically did.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: Just the administration hadn't basically kept that promise. Dan, what
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: did you think about this group of testing?
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that there's all of these issues, even
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: if they are not moving a lot of numbers in
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: the horse race, have levels of concern that are incredibly
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: high for statements made in a partisan context. And yeah,
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: I think Charlotte's exactly right about how Republicans react to
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: these things. And it's also from an electoral context, we
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: shouldn't really care about that because these are not, if
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: you're thinking about this in the context of the Biden
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: campaign or a Senate race is running in this world,
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: Those are not available voters to you. So whether those
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: arguments work with them or not, it doesn't really matter.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: What you have to nail is which arguments work best
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: with what your persuadable universe is, right? Your persuadable universe
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: can be, you know, quote unquote, independents in this group.
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: It could be the soft Republicans or conservative Democrats who
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: are deciding between candidates and also people deciding to vote.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: And you can see how some of these arguments can
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: be delivered over time, particularly as the reality on the
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: ground spreads more proportionally across the country can be very powerful.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: Charlotte, do you have any last sort of big takeaways
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: from this set of polls for progressives looking to make
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: an argument about Trump's handling of the crisis?
• 50:23
  Speaker 6: I think the largest takeaway for me is just that
• 50:27
  Speaker 6: the news is not as saturated for a lot of
• 50:30
  Speaker 6: voters as.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: It might feel.
• 50:31
  Speaker 6: And the people are still really learning about the effects
• 50:35
  Speaker 6: of the pandemic. They're still learning about what parts of
• 50:39
  Speaker 6: it were preventative, what parts of it are just sort
• 50:41
  Speaker 6: of not preventable at this point. And so describing to
• 50:45
  Speaker 6: them the fact that there are specific policy failures that
• 50:49
  Speaker 6: can be connected to a cost in lives is really powerful.
• 50:52
  Speaker 6: And that that is more powerful to them than criticizing
• 50:56
  Speaker 6: Trump's approach to it. Like being able to tie it
• 50:58
  Speaker 6: specifically to these just really terrible harms is the most
• 51:02
  Speaker 6: effective thing.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: So, you know, arm people with a lot of specifics
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: and details about the consequences of his actions without putting
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: a lot of spin on the ball when it comes
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: to Trump himself. Seems like sort of the most effective
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: strategy here.
• 51:16
  Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely.
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: Well, Charlotte, thank you for joining us. Thank you for
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: conducting this very useful poll.
• 51:21
  Speaker 6: Thank you.
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: When we come back, Dan and I will talk about
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: how all this should shape Democrats to Trump's latest push
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: to force people back to work before it's safe. OK,
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: so based on what we just heard from Charlotte, let's
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: talk about what argument Democrats should be making to voters
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: about why Trump shouldn't get another term and how the
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: various ways he's responding to the coronavirus shapes that argument.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: You and I have talked before about how two areas
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: of vulnerability for Trump are his ego and the general
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: chaos he causes. Do you think that still holds? And
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: what are some of the ways the pandemic highlights these
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: flaws that we're talking about in the news this week?
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: As we talked about with Charlotte, the coronavirus has not
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: fundamentally changed the contours of the election, but it has
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: added additional salience to a lot of different arguments you
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: would make. And it creates a different context to make
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: them in. And the persuadable voters that we need are,
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: despite the predictions of a lot of people in resistance,
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: Twitter and others we know, are not just one bad
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: piece of information away from losing Trump. They know Trump
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: is a bad person. They know that he is chaotic.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: They know that he tweets too much. But up until
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: this crisis, they were able to create a mental permission
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: structure that, while the economy is still doing fine, we're
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: not at war with North Korea or anything else. And
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: a lot of the predictions of doom and gloom that
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: you hear from liberals have not come to pass. And
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: now that is obviously a very privileged view for a
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: certain set of voters, because if you are someone in
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: an immigrant community or a voter of color or LGBTQ,
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: you're obviously suffering very specifically at these But now we
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: are seeing the life or death consequences of what it's
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: like to have someone like Trump as president, right? Where
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: it is the lying, the disregarding experts, the putting his
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: own political and personal interests, his own ego ahead of
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: what's best for the country. And so now you have
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: these ways to demonstrate to people very specifically the consequences
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: of having someone like Trump as leader.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: Well, and- One perfect example of that, the Washington Post
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: reported that two senior IRS officials say that many Americans
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: will have their stimulus checks delayed because Donald Trump wants
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: his name on them. And also the IRS website that
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: was set up to help people check the status of
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: their checks basically collapsed under overwhelming demand from so many
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: users when it launched on Wednesday. And people who could
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: access the website often found it frustratingly unhelpful. And we
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: actually have a few people who called into PSA and
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: told us about their very, very frustrating experiences trying to
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: get their check. Let's take a listen.
• 54:16
  Speaker 7: Hi, my name is Rebecca. So I went on to
• 54:19
  Speaker 7: check my IRS stimulus payment status, and I found that
• 54:24
  Speaker 7: they have the wrong bank account listed. I know they
• 54:27
  Speaker 7: have my correct bank account because I just got my
• 54:30
  Speaker 7: tax refund like two weeks ago, maybe. But nope, they
• 54:34
  Speaker 7: have the wrong information listed on the IRS website. And
• 54:38
  Speaker 7: you can't change it, from what I can tell. You
• 54:41
  Speaker 7: can't update your bank information because they're trying to prevent fraud.
• 54:46
  Speaker 7: So what happens if my payment goes to somebody else?
• 54:50
  Speaker 7: Do I just not get that payment? Who do I call?
• 54:54
  Speaker 7: How do I get that fixed?
• 54:55
  Speaker 8: Hi, my name is Allison. I'm calling from Meriden, Connecticut.
• 55:00
  Speaker 8: I am actually a medical practice manager and I was
• 55:04
  Speaker 8: furloughed about two weeks ago. So I really, really need
• 55:08
  Speaker 8: the money. When I heard people were getting some payments today,
• 55:12
  Speaker 8: I logged back onto the government website only to see
• 55:16
  Speaker 8: a message that said they couldn't determine my eligibility right now.
• 55:22
  Speaker 8: I make way under the threshold, as does my partner.
• 55:27
  Speaker 8: And we've filed tax returns. So I can't understand what
• 55:30
  Speaker 8: the problem is. And there's no way to call or
• 55:34
  Speaker 8: contact anyone about it. So I'm very fearful that we
• 55:37
  Speaker 8: will never see this money. And to add insult to injury,
• 55:42
  Speaker 8: Connecticut has been about five weeks behind in processing unemployment claims.
• 55:47
  Speaker 8: So I have no income right now. And the fear
• 55:50
  Speaker 8: and anxiety is very high.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: This does seem like something that.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: Obviously, this story came out after we did that data
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: for progress poll. But I would love to test something
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: where the specifics and the human cost of Trump's ego,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: which is people actually not getting checks that they so
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: badly need to put food on their table because of
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump's ego. I mean, it's like the perfect fit.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: of what pisses people off usually about Donald Trump in
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: quote unquote normal times.
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: Trump, particularly in the course of the coronavirus pandemic, gives
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: us so much ammunition to make arguments against him. You
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: essentially need an ongoing tracking poll at all times. You
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: can add new questions in because we did the poll
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: as we discussed with Charlotte. There are devastating attacks on
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: Trump in there, right? Like, you know, among many others,
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: the fact that he was sending millions of masks to
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: China weeks before the coronavirus hit America.
• 56:55
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: That was very concerning to many people.
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: And has the double impact of also undermining the argument
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: he's making against Biden on China that you guys talked
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: about last week?
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: But the Trump delaying stimulus checks to millions of Americans
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: so he can be the first president in American history
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: to sign the check. And the thing that's so funny
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: is he's not legally allowed to sign the check.
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: So he has to sign the memo line of the check,
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: which is just so funny. Basically the place where your
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: grandmother used to write happy birthday on your check when
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: you were a kid. Donald Trump is going to randomly
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: sign his name. But it is the perfect– like I
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: would– love to see polling on this. I'd love to
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: see a bunch of really smart consultants and creative types
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: make ads on this to test it. It seems to
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: me on its face to be the perfect manifestation of
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: how Trump's message is not America first, it's Trump first.
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: And I think this can be very powerful because it's
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: something that people can easily understand and is very specific
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: to Trump. Because a lot of times when you talk
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: about Trump putting his political interests first or even his
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: financial interests first, A lot of the persuadable voters who
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: are pretty skeptical of politicians at both parties will say, well,
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: that's what every politician does, right? Most politicians are kind
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: of corrupt. Every politician cares more about their election than
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: anyone else. But delaying a check so that they can
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: write their name on it is something that is very
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: specific to Trump, that is where Trump is uniquely bad
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: in this area. And I'm very interested to see this
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: play itself out on the campaign trail.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: And again, and Charlotte pointed this out many times in
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: the research, The key here is the delay of the checks,
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: the inability to get the checks. Like Trump's idea to
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: put his name on the checks in the first place
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: is fucking absurd. But in theory, you could see it
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: as a smart political play that as people get their
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: checks and they see the name Donald Trump, they say, oh,
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump did this. He's the one that got me
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: this check and I feel good about that. He's trying
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: to fight for me in this bad economy. But the
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: combination of the checks being delayed, which, of course, Donald
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: Trump denies, and the system for getting the checks being
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: slow and not working, and people like Steven Mnookin, I think,
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: was on television the other day saying, oh, well, this
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: relief check should get people through the next 10 weeks. And,
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't think a lot of people think $ 1, 200
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: is going to get them through the next 10 weeks.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: That's a fucking absurd. So I think as people continue
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: to sadly struggle in this economic crisis, The fact that
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump can't seem to fix the situation that, you know,
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: Republicans aren't appropriating more money and more relief for people
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: and trying to block it. I think that is going
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: to make this argument even more, you know, effective against
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump. The other big thing that really bothers voters
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: about Trump is the chaos he causes. And that has
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: been on full display in this latest debate over when
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: it is safe to leave our homes and go back
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: to work. Trump will reportedly tell governors today that they
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: can lift lockdowns if they want, even if there's no
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: plan to ramp up testing or keep people safe at work. Yesterday,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: he announced that a bunch of business leaders were part
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: of yet another White House Economic Council. There's like 50
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: of these. But most of the business leaders then said
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: the White House never notified them before Trump announced it.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: And on a call with Trump later, a bunch of
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: them told them they aren't ready to bring people back
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: to work until there's a plan to keep them safe.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: ramp up testing, which Trump doesn't have. How do you
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: think Democrats should handle this? You know, Trump's already looking
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: to blame Democrats and governors in the media for wanting
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: to keep people safe during the pandemic. And some of
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: his right wing pals are funding open our state protests
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: in places like Michigan and North Carolina. What do you
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: think about this?
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: And we should be very clear. It's not his right
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: wing pals. it is his corporate pals, right? These are
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: groups funded by billionaires like the DeVosses, which is, we've
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: seen this play a thousand times. It is billionaire funded
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: populist rhetoric for the purpose of plutocratic policies. And it's
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: notable just to, not to go down a rabbit hole here,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: but the protests in Michigan, which is one of the
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: absolute hotspots of the country. There is this I saw
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: this tweet of a person I will not remember to credit,
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: but that the top two stories on, I think it
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: was the Detroit free press website yesterday were one, uh,
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: you know, groups protests, governor Whitmer stay at home order
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: to Oakland County, Michigan, uh, scouting ice rinks to store bodies.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: Oh my God.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: Which speaks to this. Um, So I'd say there are
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: a couple of things about this. One is I think
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: that there is a trap here that Democrats can fall
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: into because this is being framed successfully by Trump as
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: I want to open the economy. Democrats do not. I
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: want to help you economically. Democrats do not. And the
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: best thing for Trump in this situation would be to
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: never get his wish. would be just seen as the
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: person who pushed for it and then being stopped by
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: Democrats and egghead scientists and elites and everyone else. So
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: he can say he fought for them without having to
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: suffer the consequences of the decision he was fighting for?
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: And that's been his play since 2016, right? He doesn't
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: care that he can't deliver on any of the promises
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: that he's made. He probably knows most of them are absurd.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: he merely wants to be seen as fighting for the wall.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: Even if he doesn't build the wall fighting China, even
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: if he continues to get rolled by China, like it's
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: all about perception. He just wants to be perceived as
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: the one fighting on behalf of the average person against
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: all these elitist liberal forces. That's his whole fucking story.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: And so Denver, I think that this cannot be Trump
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: wants to open it. Democrats want to keep it closed. It's,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: Everyone wants to get people back to work. But Democrats
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: insist that Trump have a plan to do so. He
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: does not have a plan. And he is not, in
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: the months that we have been sheltered in place, Trump
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: has not done anything to build up the testing capacity
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: we need to do this safely. It's not built up
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: the infrastructure to do the sort of contact tracing you
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: need to do this. That if you want to keep
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: people safe, you need a plan to do so. So
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: I think that's one part of the winning argument. The
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: other part is, we should just be very clear. Trump
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: does not want to, quote unquote, let people go back
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: to work. He wants to allow companies to force their
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: employees to go to work in the middle of a pandemic.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: So you no longer have a choice between your paycheck
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: and your health. And we know that that is what's
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: happening here because these very same groups who are funding
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: these protests, who are pushing Trump to, quote unquote, open
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: the economy, are the same groups pushing Congress to pass
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: a law that would prevent them from being sued if
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: any of their employees get sick or die after they
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: force them to go back to work, which I think
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: says everything about what is happening here.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: You shouldn't have to choose between your health and your paycheck.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: That's the message for Democrats. And Donald Trump and his
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: corporate friends want you to have to make that choice.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: They want you to force you to choose between your
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: job and your life. And Democrats believe there should be
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: a plan in place so that everyone can go to
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: work safely. And you can talk about all the possible
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: ways that that plan could come into fruition, right? We
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: have to ramp up testing. We have to ramp up
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: contact tracing. Employers have a lot of responsibilities to make
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: sure that the workplaces are safe for people. And I
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: do think that that refrain, where's the plan, where's the plan?
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: is going to be the best way to sort of
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: reframe this argument so it's not Donald Trump wants to
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: fight to keep the economy open, Democrats don't. I did
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: think this was interesting from this week's Navigator polling, which
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: is a sort of consortium of progressive groups that have
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: been doing a daily tracking poll. They asked, in thinking
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: about the impact of coronavirus on you, which are you
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: more worried about, you and your family's health and well-being,
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: or you and your family's financial situation? Health won 72-28.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: And that includes 76 percent of Democrats and 69 percent
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: of Republicans. But then they asked, are you more worried
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: about the impact of coronavirus on people's health or the
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: impact on our economy as a whole? It's 55-45 health
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: with a majority of Republicans and independents saying they're more
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: worried about the impact on the broader economy, which I
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: do think is a warning for Democrats to make sure
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: that you, and again, it goes back to the polling
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: conversation we had with Charlotte, to make sure you personalize
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: the impact of what's happening on people's family, on their health,
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: on their finances. It has to be more personalized than
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: an argument about open the economy or don't open the economy.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: I think that's right. It is easy to look at
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: the polling right now where you see huge majorities of people,
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: including huge majorities of Republicans, supporting the social distancing, saying
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: that we should continue it for some period of time.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: And it's easy and important to look at these protests
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: that are happening and to inform the public and inform
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: reporters that this is not, in many cases, just a
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: grassroots uprising of normal citizens. It is a billionaire-funded, grass-tops operation.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: But I think we should not be overly sanguine about
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 2: our political position over the long term. And so we
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: have to, Democrats would be very specific that we want
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: to open the economy. We have to frame who Trump
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: is fighting for. It's for employers, not employees. And I
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: think we need to set specific benchmarks for what Trump
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: needs to do in order to be able to, quote unquote,
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: open the economy. And, like, there are a bunch of
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: different plans out there. CAP has a plan. There are
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: other plans. But I think it would be helpful for
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: us to come to a conclusion of we need X
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: amount of tests available on a daily basis with turned
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: around and Y amount of time. Or we need the
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: following structure set up, or we need this amount of
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: funding to do this. Because it's easy. It's one thing
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: to say, and this is where Trump benefits from his
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: briefings and say, you need a plan. Then he goes
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: up there and just spouts off a bunch of dishonest
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: and out of context statements. numbers about ventilators and testing
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: kits and Abbott labs and all those things. But he
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: currently is so far from what we actually need. We
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: have to tell people what he actually needs so that
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: it puts in context the numbers that he is spouting
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: out at those briefings every day.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's right. Where's the plan? All right.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: That's all we have for today. Thanks again to Charlotte
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: Swayze from Data for Progress for joining us. And we
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: will talk to you guys on Monday. Bye, everyone.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 3: Bye.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a product of Cricket Media. The
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our assistant producer is Jordan Waller.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Somenator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou,
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: Caroline Reston, and Elisa Gutierrez for production support. And to
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, Yale Freed, and
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: Milo Kim, who film and upload these episodes as videos
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: every week.