Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK Assassination - Ep. 266 ~ The Watergate Martins

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JFK Assassination - Ep. 266 ~ The Watergate Martins · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

0:06
This is a from sixty years to jab Johson around Sleep Freeze Crazy to inte
0:36
week ago. Oh did I miss the Here we go? Yeah? What
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do you? What are you doing over there, Joe? Oh? Well,
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you know, I've been prepping for the show a lot of this morning
0:56
and I am currently having some a snack with my favorite hot sauce, which
1:03
is I don't know, you might have guessed it so hot. You have
1:08
an arrow from Silk City, and I wanted to ask your opinions. So
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I'm having some dipping chips. Should I use the hot syrup that's my favorite?
1:21
I know that's your favorite? Or nightmare? Well, I'm gonna have
1:25
to go with hot cerebuddy. Yes, we don't like nightmares. No,
1:30
but the nightmare is a very cool that I actually like it with Mexican the
1:34
best. And I'm i mix my hot sauce so I might not only have
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one, might two. Yes, yeah, this is this is not just
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a sponsorship. We are customers as well of Silk City Hot Sauce. Their
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Hot Sauce is phenomenal. They source only from their freshest products. They have
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their roots deep in Patterson, New Jersey, also known as Silk City,
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hence the name. They only use glass bottles. To bottles, you don't
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get weird flavors. So if you like your hot sauce like Big Bad Bobs
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like his women hot and spicy and not so hot you can't eat them,
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then go get yourself from Silk City Hot Sauce followed the link in the description.
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For twenty percent off your entire order, enter the code Gunman at check
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out. You won't regret it. So thanks again Silk City Hot Sauce for
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sponsoring the show. Yes, it is very good stuff, indeed, and
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you know I ordered a few bottles, you know, to support Rob when
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he first had them as an a sponsor. And I really love it.
2:51
I mean, you know, everyone has their different tastes of hot sauce and
2:55
but like I said before, the honey Hob and arrow so good and it's
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great on eggs and omelets and you and I know Ashley and any handlebars no,
3:12
but if you'd like to get send me some, I will maybe use
3:16
them. Although we don't plan on riding a scooter anytime soon. Maybe actually,
3:23
so I had to thought next year at Lancer, which we have been
3:28
invited to already, if we go when we go, I'm going to conquer
3:36
the scooter and do a scooter ride in front of whatever hotel and not follow
3:43
my ass because I by Bad Bob and one of his earlier statements, or
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actually one of his recent long shows but before I joined, talked about how
3:57
he was scootering around Dallas, and I'm like, how the hell too,
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big, bad Bob. I rode a scooter from downtown Dallas to Deep Elam,
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which is a good couple of miles and didn't fall once. How what
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I'm graceful? I mean, I don't tell you. You do have a
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lot of grace. But anyway, when when this thing happens in Dallas next
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year, people bring your cell phones please uh and we'll have a whole new
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intro to the show. Anyway, Welcome to the show. This is episode
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number two hundred and sixty six of the Lone Guman Podcast, and it's called
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the Watergate Martin's because there were some some pretty notre notorious ones that you've heard
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of before, and we're going to get into all that here in the show
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today. So Joe, if you could think us off my friend, all
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right, So of course you have to give me a second here. But
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but as Rob and I were into our Martin journey, which lasted a little
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over a year, we discovered and we kind of touched on this last episode
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that Eugenio Martinez had Martin alias a J Martin alias to be specific. Actually,
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do we have an over under for how many times I fuck up the
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PowerPoint? I'll give it at least uh four to one odds. There's two,
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no over under. That's over four times or under four times? Over
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four times? We're already one two? What? Okay? Well, this
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is the cover page and on the left is mister James W. McCord.
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On to his right is the Eugenio Martinez. Third from next is mister Frank
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fear Leany sturges Fiorini. Yes, yeah, there's no l in there.
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We should have also an over under of how many times I missed pronounciate things.
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The pronounce the nation shirt is coming, folks. You said that wrong.
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That's one for you. I was referring to your pronunciation of the word
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pronounce a nation. I didn't say that this time you did before. Okay,
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Well, the record we are live. The record will will tell the
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truth. And on the right is mister E. Howard Hunt, who obviously
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was very involved in the Watergate scandal. But before Rob and I started on
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this journey, we are obviously we found that Eugenio Martinez had j Martin alias,
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and we then this is what we showed you last time. Uh,
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when we were exploring the Martin's restaurant and Rolando Roland Martin, we had thought
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there was a possibility that Roland Martin could be Eugenio Rolando Martinez obviously Martin and
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this is about the easy uh, we said this last episode. We were
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unable to make that connection, but it did lead us down a very interesting
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path, and that was finding out that almost all the water Gay burglars had
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Martin aliases and they reported to a mister John Martin, and there are many
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mister John Martin's in the story we are going to tell you today, Well,
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Typing chimp, thank you, sir or ma'am whomever you may be identifying
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as. Yes, we appreciate it, We do thank you. So I
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think we wrapped. We kind of like told how we got into this,
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what about Roland and Martin? What I didn't know? True flags, how
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are you? Thank you? They were before your time, Joe. It's
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an old comedy team m I had no idea, yeah, showing my age.
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So, like like I had mentioned, we we got down the Watergate
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path through Eugenio Martinez and a lot of the players in the Watergate burglary.
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That doesn't count. Close close, but no cigar, as they say.
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But then when looking at some Watergate documents, actually the official Watergate hearing documents,
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we realized that it wasn't only Eugenio Martinez that had a Martin Ali.
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Yes, it was a lot of people. We're going to get into that.
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So the first thing I'm going to share is you've seen this before.
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Oh my god, here we go twice. That's three times, No two,
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that's three. Okay, hold on because Jack, thank you, sir,
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appreciate it. Thank you, sir, Jack and just her future Martin
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future reference. Chimp is all man, The chimp is all man. Yes,
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interesting, okay, Well, thank you, sir. We appreciate your
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consistent support. So I'm bringing this up now. This is a document I
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think we showed last time. This is from I believe in nineteen seventy two.
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This is the FBI trying to figure out if Eugenio Orlando Martinez used the
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John W. Martin and John P. Martin aliases while checking into some hotel
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rooms in Florida, and and just to show you how it led us down
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this path, we then started searching some of the water documents and we were
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very interested into to find that mister James W. McCord, who is a
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very hot topic these days, had an alias of Edward J. Martin and
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it was given to him by mister Hunt. And Rob will expand that is
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I Howard Hunt. Rob will expand on that later. And I guess mister
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Hunt eve according to McCord his Martin alias, but I think it might have
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he might have had that alias before and gave it to him. And this
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is just another corroborating document as James W. McCord junior as Edward Martin Edward
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J. Martin. So we qualifies on our list. And this is from
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the Watergate hearings. And Senator Wiker is interviewing mister McCord, and mister McCord
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says, you know, they're asking him how you received information from the FBI,
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and he goes, no, well, I received it from the Internal
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Security Division. I do not believe the FBI. I was aware of that.
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And from what individual did you receive the information as Senator Wiker, I
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believe it was through the Chief of the Evaluation Section and mister John Martin.
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Okay, I am sorry, I did not hear that name, mister record,
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John Martin, John Martin, where was your contact? Yes, sir,
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And so we have another Martin who is in the Justice Department, in
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the Chief of the Evaluation Section. And I'm gonna just stop sharing for a
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second, so we could just kind of dive into that for and talk about
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that for a sec I don't know, tell us what's going on here,
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Row, I would say that there is a lot of what we call fookery
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going on here with people using the alias of Jay or John Martin and people
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above them in the CIA using the name John Martin. Or this is this
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could be McCord giving up the alias of E. Howard Hunt or just throwing
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that name out there again, because McCord was told specifically to give the name
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John Martin if he was if he was caught by his lawyer. So,
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uh, you know, there's a lot of martining happening here, folks,
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Yes, a lot. And we're gonna show you some martening that we haven't
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even figured out. And I know some of you guys who have been following
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us in our series are are kind of getting confused of all the different Martins,
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and that's kind of what we're trying to highlight, is that this name
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was used to confuse and to create screwy fuckery whatever. So back to McCord,
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McCord, is you know we're actually before before a percent McCord obviously,
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if people are keeping up with assassination news, has recently been accused or alleged
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to have been a KGB mole by doctor John Newman, who I think we
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know is a great researcher, and you got to take that in consideration.
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And it was interesting that we had mccordism as a Martin before he came out
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with this theory of his. But I'm actually going to give her a shout
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out to one of our dearest friends, mister Doug, who, if you
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really want to get into some of the Watergate stuff deep listen to episode number
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one seventy of the Dallas Action Podcast and Doug has a very interesting clip on
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there of May Brussel, six days after Watergate, essentially breaking down McCord.
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In the clip, she says McCord that was known as Edward J. Martin,
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and it's a fascinating episode. We will, of course always want to
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promote our good friend Doug, and it's you know, we're we consider ourselves
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Martin experts. We might not be Watergate experts, but Doug is one,
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and definitely recommend you check out that podcast. Again, I think it's number
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one seventy. But let me present now. So McCord is a very interesting
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figure, right because obviously you have Newman saying that he was a CIA agent,
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a mole and and yeah, and shadowing Oswald. So this is a
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little tidbit. This is a document I found on ancestry dot com on July
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nineteen fifty eight, and it is a Mercury clearance granted to mister McCord.
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And you'll find that in our dropbox and locals, as well as many many
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other Ancestry McCord travel records that I have found. And essentially he had carte
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blanche to go wherever he wanted in nineteen fifty eight, so he definitely was
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active. I'm not going to talk about doctor Newman's theory because I simply haven't
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researched it enough to give you as a good opinion on it. But as
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we were searching through the and preparing for this episode and searching through some documents,
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I came up with an interesting tidbit. And Rob, did I tell
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you that I found another J. Martin this morning? Yes? You did?
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Oh you're supposed to say, no, well you didn't tell me who.
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I asked who, but you didn't tell me. Okay, well i'll
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tell you now. Well, this is a special agent in charge, John
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H. Martin. I guess he was based out of Detroit. And imagine
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that and noticed the subject, right, James Walter mccoor Junior Burglary Democratic Headquarters.
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So you have a Martin reporting on a Martin alias who says his boss
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was Morton being investigated by Martin. Yes, yes, I don't know what
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his investigation concluded, but I would if I was a betting man, and
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I might be, I would say that it probably cleared him in something that
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is a mystery wrapped in an enigma inside of a riddle, folks. Yes,
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So that's very interesting. And I just can't came across this this morning,
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that some John H. Martin is is reporting on the burgerly of McCord.
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Another CI agent. This guy is obviously an FBI agent and reporting on
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the wet the Burglary, Fuck you Burglary, God damn it. I love
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you, but sometimes I don't. Hey, this is a famous come on,
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yeah, I know. So this is something we found. This was
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in our lance representation and this was a document signed by John Martin, who
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is the acting d which I believe means director DCI slash ic rob. I
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think you found this. If you want to expand on it, I did.
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Okay. So before this is all happening during Watergate hearings or right around
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that same time, and in nineteen seventy three, for a period of I
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think it was from February to September of seventy three, the CIA had no
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director. They had an acting director that was named John J. Martin.
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Okay, and imagine that, folks. Before that, I think he was
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the personnel director of Central Intelligence, and they made this guy the act director,
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the acting DCI. I'm going to jump here. This is what you
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are referring to. Yeah, we found an article about him. Yes,
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this is his uh, I guess his obituary in the sense in the Baltimore
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Sun. And do you want me to read it, Rob, John J.
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Martin Not that I did before, you answered a retired NASA administrator,
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and I want you guys to keep NASA in mind during this. Yeah,
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and real quick, Joe, I'd like to point everybody back to the Longoman
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episode called Cherry on Top about Dante. Was it Maraschino who was a buddy
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of David Ferries who worked at Rally Coffee Company, who then went on to
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work at the NASA plant in Miss Show, New Orleans. And he raised
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a big stink about not getting promoted at this uh, at this NASA place.
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And I came across a ton of documents of his correspondence between people that
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were working in NASA, and John Martin was one of them. So again
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full circle loop between all of these characters, chearacters. Yes and yes,
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I can't speaking here is uh If you look here, it says born in
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Detroit. Yes, going into tweit could that have been that John Martin special
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Agent in charge? No, because he was raised in South Bend, Indiana,
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Yeah, and graduated from Notre Dame, Notre Dame Notre Damas US University.
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Yeah, so, which I don't believe is in Detroit. Right,
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So this is the John L. Martin that we were able to find.
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And this I'm sorry for the lack of clarity in the picture, but I'm
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going to read some of the article to you, and it's about John EL
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Martin growing success on the tangled trail of spies, Justice Department Chief of Internal
23:30
Security, which I think McCord was referring. This is who he was referring
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to. Yeah, sometimes it's caught between agencies, different differing interests and a
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little side bit talking about agencies, different differing interests. We had a nice
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conversation last night, didn't we, Rob. We did with mister Larry Hancock.
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Maybe it was yeah, maybe if you did kind of a big deal
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and it was just meant to be like a short brief thing and it ended
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up lasting three hours and it is. It would have made a great show.
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Yes, and maybe maybe he will. He will, but Larry loves
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us, Yes he does. And to tease our next and I believe final
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episode, Rob will be the James Herbert Martin episode and then a wrap up.
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Yeah, it won't be the final one. We're gonna do a final
24:41
wrap up just to clarify things for everybody, because we know this is confusing,
24:45
and we still have like ten of them we haven't even mentioned. So
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we're gonna get them all out, and we're gonna tie it all up in
24:52
a nice, neat little bow for everybody at the very end, like two
24:56
weeks from now. So that's coming, yes, and it's it. Will
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will tie it up very nicely and give you our our kind of our working
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theory on the Martin anomaly that we have discovered. So I'm gonna read from
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this New York Times article, right Can you see it on the screen wrap?
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I can see it, but I can't read it right. Well,
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I will read it for you, sir, And fuck it looks like an
25:33
alphabet soup. I was about to say, like you're gonna dig me so
25:37
many times on this. Okay, this is from a New York Times article
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in the seventies. I don't exact da I might say, I think it's
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seventy two. The office is nondescript, talking about John al Martin, furnished
25:56
with strictly government issue furniture, and away in the corner of a building with
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corridors a faded institutional green. I don't think that's the green I'm thinking of,
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but a hollow ring jingles from a bread basket size contraption designed to scramble
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telephone conversations and frustrate prying ears. Excuse me, said John L. Martin,
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the government's chief prosecutor of spies. I have to answer my shoe.
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I don't know what that means, but it's an old it's an old reference
26:40
to the show Gets Smart, where he had to show a shoe with a
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phone built into his shoe. Yes, he was a spy. You're agent.
26:48
You're showing your agent again. Yeah. Mister Martin is chief of the
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Internal Security Section. This year alone, the United statesttorneys working under his supervision
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have brought cases against such desperate people or disparate people as John Walker Junior,
27:12
or retired Navy Chief Warrant Officer Larry Wu Tai Chin Wu Tang Wu Tang.
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He's of the Wu Tang clian that they with. Yes, yes, we
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are some of those people too that you don't want to. Thirty year veteran
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of the Central Intelligence Agency and a Navy analyst accused of spying for the Israelis
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wrote, I guess Jonathan Pollard uh the spirit about John L. Martin.
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There we're speaking about John L. Martin. He was He was a thirty
27:56
year veteran of the CIA. That's what the New York Times article says.
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Just last week, mister Martin returned from Israel, interesting where he was part
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of an American team interviewing Israeli said to be involved in the Pollard case.
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Earlier this year, he helped arrange exchanges with East Germany and Ghana. That's
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Africa, Ghana, in which the United States traded convicted spies for people held
28:25
on similar charges. So as opposed to the China Gaza Ghana. Yes,
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mister Martin, a former agent of the FBI in the FBiH and two apparently
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oh my God, who once investigated the Ku Klux Klan murders in Mississippi,
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speaks pluently about the recent crop of Americans arrested for spying. They're really pathetic,
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he said. They have played a tough game and they have lost.
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Mister Martin must be more diplomatic when he talks to other government officials faced with
29:00
the possibility of their employees we'll be charged with spine. Most mister Martin stands
29:10
at the at the intersection of powerful conflicting interests. So I'm going to stop
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right there reading and let's kind of talk about this. So he is investigating
29:30
possible spies across different agencies. But oh, nothing, Joe, I'm just
29:41
interacting with the people while you speak. So let me get this straight,
29:47
Joe. We have this John L. Martin. Guy is a thirty year
29:52
veteran of the CIA. He is a former FBI agent. He's a prosecutor
29:59
who goes after spy eyes, who is an expert on the extreme right wing
30:06
and people like the Clue Close Klan. And he's also traveling overseas and a
30:14
diplomatic capacity to gather information. Yes, and this is again they're talking about
30:22
John L. The obituary we showed you before was John Jay. So we
30:30
have some messing with the middle name here and I'll show you. And of
30:34
course we have the uh, the H. Martin, the John H.
30:40
Martin, So we have three different Martins here we're talking about, I know,
30:45
believe it, believe confused. So yeah, we're still confused, so
30:55
don't don't worry. So there happened to be a Brigadier General John L.
31:02
Martin, and this is another John L. Martin. But this guy's or
31:07
this is a junior. Yes, but he was a brigadier general for the
31:11
United States Air Force but also Space Systems. Right, so I think this
31:22
is the same guy that worked for NASA that they say, you know,
31:29
I guess he was a man of many trades. We're still trying to figure
31:33
this out. I mean, I don't I don't think it's the same guy,
31:36
Joe. That was John J. Martin. This is John L.
31:37
Martin Jr. Both worked for NASA or in the space programs. Well,
31:44
this doesn't say he worked for NASA. I mean, if you're working in
31:47
the Air Force, they have a space division right now called the Space Force.
31:52
Yes, but like I love the name, by the way, Yeah,
31:56
you know it was always you know, when the space where he's started
32:00
back then, there was always a division of the United States Air Force is
32:02
the Office of Space Systems, in charge of rocketry and satellites and all that
32:08
jazz. So the next document I'm going to show you is concerning the Watergate
32:20
investigation reports on April twenty first, nineteen seventy three departmental departmental Attorneys John L.
32:30
Martin. So that's the guy, Well, the thirty year veteran of
32:36
the CIA, the prosecutor, the FBI agent. Yeah, that's the same
32:40
guy and an attorney, a man of little trees, I guess. And
32:49
you know it has reference to McCord's assistant, the CRP, which was the
32:54
acronym for that and that's how he and some of the other well, that's
33:02
how the burglars were paid through the CRP, which is eventually what screwed Mixon
33:09
over. But we showed this. This is the John Jay the retired NASA
33:15
Administrator, Deputy Director of the Intelligence Agency. This is something. This is
33:22
a long bio on John Landrum. We have his middle name now, but
33:29
he's from Carolina and not Detroit and World War two vet. Well, this
33:37
is this is the brigadier general guy, right, Yes, this is promoted
33:42
to the rank of brigadier general in nineteen sixty three. Was real. This
33:45
is different than the Detroit guy. And yes, yes technical well technically means
33:55
yes yes, technically yes, technically yes, and was reassigned the NRO program
34:07
A which which was shown in one of the previous documents. We just displayed
34:15
El segundo. Yes, And so there's a really weird thing going on here
34:24
with the middle micheal especially, But we have a John h. We have
34:30
a John L And we have a John Jay. Now did the Baltimore son
34:35
make a typo and put Jay instead of L? Was there a John Jay?
34:42
There is another John J. Martin of course, Junior. That was
34:45
the postal worker? Is that correct, Rob John Martin Jr. There was
34:50
a John Martin Jr. Yes, Yeah, the postal worker. So and
34:54
again this brings us all back to this craziness, which is the story of
34:59
the Mark Tims right, Like, I get it. It's a common name.
35:04
But at some point when does it stop becoming a coincidence and become purposeful
35:14
action of deceit and the show And to your point, typing Chimp, we
35:20
made this same correlation in our Lancer presentation. Excuse me, it's where it's
35:30
it's not like the most popular last name, but it's not so obscure that
35:37
it's memorable, you know, like Zigowitz or something like that. It's just
35:44
kind of some middle of the road type of thing. Is easily forgettable because
35:49
it's common. Everybody probably knows somebody named Martin or John or James or things
35:58
like that. So you know, as far as an alien use, it's
36:02
use as an alias. It's a damn good choice, you know, m
36:07
hmm. And there are a lot of John Martin's, and John is by
36:16
far the most popular, are the most frequent, the most common first name
36:25
that came up on our list of Martins. Right, what's the most common
36:29
first name ever? I thought Joe was No, It's John. Yeah.
36:39
I guess what was just was wishful thinking on my part. But you know,
36:46
the McCord thing is extremely interesting. Newman's recent uh thoughts on him are
36:55
extremely interesting. And we you know, we show you how how he had
37:01
you know, clearance to go anywhere in fifty eight and you know, spent
37:08
decades working for the IC and of course had a Jay Martin alias J.
37:17
And I want to point out that May Brussel, this is I gotta give
37:23
credit to mister Doug here because I was listening to his Watergate episode this morning.
37:29
May Brussel, six days after the assassination, had this like like almost
37:37
figured it out. It was crazy. And she actually said that McCord used
37:45
the alias of Edward Martin six days after Watergates. We're talking, you know,
37:52
maintain seventy two whatever. She was talking about people ahead of their time
38:00
and Jack Jack to your point, air Force general using an alias I don't
38:06
think that that's an alias. It's probably a real name. But there is
38:09
a giant mix of real names here mixed with aliases, so that is of
38:15
course where the confusion comes in as well. But you know some people,
38:21
this is their real name, it is John Martin, or it is Jack
38:23
Martin, or what the whatever the case may be, but you also have
38:30
it being used as an alias. And uh yeah, good point too.
38:34
No true flags to John Martins from Minnesota with two JFK films is another matter.
38:38
Exactly right, exactly right. Yeah, that was our longest episode,
38:46
and that was a great thing, A great episode, I thought, really
38:53
really put together a lot of the screwery, especially in terms of the Martin
39:00
film. And a quick update on that. We are working hard to obtain
39:08
the earliest copy of that film through some sources of ours, so there could
39:17
be a follow up episode to that. You don't know, all right,
39:23
So let's get back to our Watergate burglars. Joe, Okay, give me
39:28
my slides for sure. All right, So let's talk about Frank Fiorimi Sturgis
39:39
for a little bit. Everybody knows his alleged alleged ties to the assassination and
39:47
his alleged ties to the CIA, which they deny. So in his Watergate
39:57
Hearings Alk is being questioned and Senator Irvin says, uh, yes, Now,
40:07
there was a meeting most of these lawyers had, and it pointed out
40:10
in the press that mister Sturgis had apparently CIA credentials issued in the name of
40:15
mister Martin, I believe, and mister Alex says, yes, sir,
40:21
and uh, you know, it was also apparent that it came out in
40:23
the press that other members of the group who broke into the Watergate had false
40:28
credentials as well. Mister Alex says, yes, that is correct, Sir,
40:32
Irving. Senator Irvings says, and the press suggested that since McCord had
40:36
been involved with the CIA, and Hunt had worked for the CIA, and
40:40
Barker had been in the Beya Piggs operations CIA and possibly others, that perhaps
40:45
there was CIA involvement uh in the Watergate? Was that not speculated in the
40:51
press. Yes, So you have Eugenio Martinez, Frank Sturgis, and James
41:04
McCord all having are all using the Martin alias, and they're all Watergate burglars,
41:12
and they all have ties to the CIA Bay of Pigs Kennedy assassination loosely
41:19
for some of these guys. But very interesting stuff here, all right,
41:24
next one up? Sure? Oh no, what we don't have any more
41:37
slides on mister Sturgis. Oh that's right. You screwed that up earlier and
41:40
you forgot to move it down. Oh yes, okay, okay, I'll
41:45
bring that back up. That's okay, it's it just mentioned that Hunt had
41:50
given them their aliases, which we've already covered, so they needed to go
41:52
back. But and and of course everybody you know who's been looking into the
41:59
case knows e Howard Hunt Kennedy assassination allegations. You know, where he gives
42:05
his rundown on the big event, and who was supposedly involved and in charge
42:10
and operators and this, this, that and the other. Yes, there
42:17
is the mister Hunt reference. Yeah, get rid of it. I blame
42:27
PowerPoint, I blame Joe Burrelly. But that's okay, I forgive you Joe
42:31
Burrelly. Yes, So those are the Bordergate Martins. And there was a
42:45
reference to mister Martin as well. And we found a couple of references to
42:50
mister Martin's and I found a very interesting U correspondence in the Wiseburg archives from
43:05
Harold Wiseberg and what was his name, George Laudner of the Washington Post.
43:14
I have it. I can bring it up by the way, if you
43:15
want me to, or we can tipt for locals. Well, I have
43:20
it right here. My friend read away, sir, all right, so
43:28
from February of nineteen seventy five. So this is kind of right after the
43:36
Watergate hearings had subsided, and right before interest in the assassination is starting to
43:44
build up, and there's going to be a House selection committee on this kind
43:46
of stuff. Harold Wiseberg writes to himself a lot and notes to the file
43:55
if you will, and it's marked confidential, and is describing a meeting with
44:00
mister A on February tenth, nineteen seventy five. And he says, the
44:08
person I'm calling mister A did not so call himself that when he gave me
44:14
a name other than his own by which I referred to him when he phones.
44:20
He has phoned a number of times since he saw the Washington Post story
44:22
on Whitewash four. Elsewhere, I note the name by which he identifies himself,
44:28
not his last name. From his accent, I'd say he is Russian.
44:32
From his conversation, the things he knew, the way he understands and
44:37
speaks, and what he has been explicit about, I'd say that at some
44:43
point he has worked with or for the CIA, and is disenchanted. From
44:50
specifics, I'd say he is not a recent arrival and of decent education.
44:55
We were to have met earlier on several occasions. One time he was ill
45:00
and phoned to say he couldn't make it with audible respiratory symptoms. Another time
45:06
he was to have driven close by and I was to have met with him
45:07
in a public place. My car was then unexpectedly in the shop. And
45:12
today I had to be in a city between where he told me he lives
45:16
and here, and to do some shopping at a prominent store. We met
45:22
there. I had whitewashed four in my hands, being the identification. So
45:28
he set up a clandestine meeting with this guy who he's calling mister A.
45:35
All right, and yeah, yeah, so he's carrying around a copy of
45:40
his book. So this guy knows who he is, right, he says.
45:47
After I completed my shopping on which he accompanied me, we had lunch
45:51
together He is about five seven five eight, plump and jolly, graying,
45:58
probably fifty or more. He might look just like me neat. He was
46:05
simply but well dressed, with a good command of English, but a conspicuous
46:09
Russian accent. That sounds like you. You have a good command of English,
46:14
at least better than mine, he said faintly. Does Joseph all right?
46:19
He highly suspects Nasenko as a double agent. He thinks Ted Silk is
46:27
CIA. I have no idea who that is, based on his writing,
46:31
especially of Hunt. He keeps up with spook affairs, and he was in
46:37
this country at the time of the Heine Roh suit with which he was familiar.
46:43
Don't know what that is either. We had merely a general conversation because
46:46
I feel that if he knows anything I want to know, there is a
46:50
better chance of my learning it from his desire for me to from my trying
46:53
to pump him. And I don't think that's a sexual reference. I made
46:59
no. I made no such effort, made no effort to learn anything about
47:04
him as the address background phone anything he knows how to reach me. And
47:07
when we parted, I again invited him here. I told him that if
47:12
he knew what he thought I should or might want to. I wanted to
47:15
know it, but only if it was also his desire. It was a
47:21
pleasant meeting. His disappointment with the CIA may be over a feeling that they
47:25
have not done as much as he desired. He believes that Lee Harvey Oswald
47:30
was KGB. I tried to explain to him why this was improbable, if
47:35
not impossible, but he didn't want to hear it. He has a low
47:40
opinion of the book KGB, and seemed to agree with my opinion that it
47:45
is an Angleton operation. He is the one who suggested I read it.
47:50
It says Lee Harvey Oswald was not KGB. In parentheses, he says anatotly.
47:55
Grimico's book has about a half page on me and the jfk assassination,
48:01
and while he was well dressed, he gives the impression of not being well
48:05
off and of being honest. I asked him if he wanted whitewashed four,
48:09
and he said he didn't have the money to spare. I gave it to
48:13
him anyway and said he could pay me when he could. He thanked me,
48:15
but later he said he'd better let it wait. I then suggested that
48:19
he read it and if he had finished with it but felt he couldnot afford
48:22
it, to merely mail it back to me, and he happily then took
48:28
it like, come on, Harold, just give the man the book.
48:32
I mean, seriously, but anyway, okay, Uh, I've not asked
48:40
questions that could disclose whether he knows what I want to know. I did
48:44
tell him that my interests are limited and their limits. He says his complexion
48:50
is pale, but there are many fine capill areas visible in both cheeks.
48:55
So Wiseberg was really eyeballing this guy. And I don't know if you can
49:04
see the notation at the top. Probably not going to focus for me,
49:12
of course not. But anyway, it is marked mister Martin in quotations,
49:17
Wheaton area. Okay. So then we fast forward three years and now Harold
49:27
Weisberg is writing George Laudner of the Washington Post a letter, and he says,
49:35
as I listened to Heart's impressive and more than credible, if with the
49:40
committee's mandate largely irrelevant testimony, I grew more and more interested in what he
49:45
had to say about mister A. Most all of this is because for some
49:51
time I know him as mister Martin. I suppose that in his commentary Joe
49:58
Voles expressed the common belief that mister x Is Stone is Glitzen. If I
50:07
am correct, then I have reason to believe that the CIA's paranoia had him
50:12
look me up. If this interests me much, or if so, this
50:15
interests me much, so I'm interested in any description of the character I can
50:20
get, especially a picture of this fellow. So then he goes on and
50:24
on, And he says, on one of his calls, when he again
50:30
mentioned coming here, and I believed he would not, I suggested that we
50:36
meet in Rockville on a day I had to be there, and I think
50:38
we had earlier indicated that he lived in the Wheaton area, Wheaton, Maryland.
50:43
He liked the idea and kept the appointment. And this is Harold telling
50:46
George Laudner about the first encounter that we already talked about here, but here's
50:51
a little bit more detail. He says they met in Heckingers, which down
50:58
here. It was like an old school lows or home depot before there was
51:01
a Low's or home depot. They had a little bit of everything, a
51:07
lot of construction stuff, housewares stuff, like that, Heckingers. Yeah,
51:14
uh, he said, with whitewash four serving in my hands to identify me.
51:20
We did some shopping together. He got some vegetable seeds, saying he
51:23
had a small backyard garden, and I got a great buy and a dumping
51:28
trailer suitable for use with a writing mower half price or less, last of
51:34
a line being cleared out. This was in February of seventy five. My
51:37
recollections are clear, including of him. I'm sure I would recognize a photo
51:43
if there is one to see. We had lunch in an adjoining, in
51:49
a in a joint adjoining. Say that three times we had lunch and a
51:57
joint adjoining, heckingers, And that was all seasoned with his venom about Nasenko.
52:06
The man is hung up like not even a garrison gets hung up,
52:09
And it is all about Nasenko, right, the defector, Yeah, he
52:16
says, uh. And all of yesterday's fascinating testimony I think on part of
52:21
the CIA, really brilliant performance. What the committee wanted to lose got lost.
52:25
This is what hung mister Martin up. Most of all, Nasenka told
52:30
the FBI and KGB suspected Oswald was indeed or was intended to be a US
52:37
sleeper agent. Mister Martin's main effort was to persuade me that Oswald was KGB
52:45
so and he says, you know, thank you, you know your friend
52:50
Harold So again, don't know what to make of it. Don't know who
52:54
this former Russian guy was, could have been a former CIA, could have
52:59
been a former double agent. But going by the name mister Martin. Yeah,
53:07
another So, how many do we have now regarding Watergate Martins? We
53:16
have the three that I pointed out, John, Jay, John l John
53:21
Huh, Eugenio Sturgis, McCord. We're at what six ish Martins or No.
53:31
Seven, including mister John, including this guy uh. And as my
53:37
metho hopefully finance. We just wanted to kind of portray and convey how how
53:50
this name was just used in so many different ways and and uh and it
54:00
all seems to be connected to the same agency that is using this this specific
54:07
name as an alias. So we had a couple of questions robbed too,
54:09
and if you saw it, I'm just going through the comments. What questions
54:15
have we got going on here? Someone asked why would Sturgis change his name?
54:20
I was up there for a little bit, but you were reading oh
54:25
same reason. Edward Suggs changed his name, probably to throw off the uh
54:32
federales. I mean it was it was an alias. A lot of people
54:42
that had ethnic names back then. I think Jacob Rubinstein changing his to Jack
54:47
Ruby. I think Fank Frank Fiorini changing his the Sturgis Craper Braden. You
54:57
know, yeah, I mean it's just it's just something people did back then
55:01
to seem to more americanize himself, you know, to not stand out with
55:07
some weird last name like BARRELLI you know, thanks for calling me out there.
55:14
Hey, I'm kidding. Uh so, actually so I was. When
55:20
I was doing research on this. On this episode, I of course ran
55:27
into Bernard Barker, Right, Bernard Barker. When you think of the name,
55:34
you think, I don't know American. He was born in Havana and
55:40
had dual citizenship with Cuba. And I'm sure his real name was not Bernard
55:46
Barker. Pretty, that's probably uh pretty Bernardo Gristino. And I think this
55:55
was from Doug's episode, But Hunt was with Bernard Barker in Miami two weeks
56:00
before the Watergate breaking. You say so, I just am relaying information from
56:16
a very trusted source of ours that would not have said that if it was
56:22
not true true true, true, true true. So yeah, go check
56:31
out episode one seventy of the Dallas Action. Again. This has been a
56:37
deep dive into another fascinating subject and this we knew this was going to be
56:43
a confusing one. But trust us, we are just as confused as you
56:46
are when it comes to trying to figure all of these Martins is out.
56:52
You know, I mean, try going on Mary Ferrell and putting in John
56:59
Martin and searching it and you'll find references to a gazillion different people, hundreds
57:05
of thousands of documents. So it's it's, you know, trying to sort
57:08
everybody out using middle initials and uh, you know stuff like that is what
57:14
we Ah, yeah, I hear you, bungled. We definitely need some
57:21
kind of a visual I forget they call those things. Ah, there's a
57:27
fancy name for it. It's like a family tree, but they're not a
57:30
family not like a flow chart, but something something like that. You know.
57:37
Yeah, that's not a bad idea. I mean, maybe we'll do
57:42
that for the the finale, but it's just do different columns like Cia and
57:50
who was associated with that, and then you know Texas, New Orleans,
57:54
you know Russia. Yeah, it could be. That's the same. Like
58:00
a lot of work, Joe, maybe you can maybe you can get started
58:02
on that. Nah. A wise man name with the initials BBB told me
58:09
that I have too much work already, so there's always time to make a
58:16
chart. Yes, that's what I've told But yeah, we're you know,
58:22
we we stumbled on the Watergate thing kind of by accident. There you go,
58:29
Joe Neural Network, Thank you, sevet La sona Kova, thank you
58:37
for pronouncing that. Well, I'm assuming that as an alias. Yes I
58:44
may be wrong, but I'm just I'm assuming. Mm hmm, well my
58:50
name are you applying? Yes, we're accepting applications. And that's the thing,
59:00
right like on locals, we are trying to create a community who is
59:07
interested in figuring helping us figuring this out in maybe an intern way, in
59:14
a non paid intern way maybe. But you know, like we we have
59:19
said this before and I'll say it again, we are big fans of collaboration
59:28
between researchers. We had, like we mentioned, a long conversation last night
59:34
with one of the greatest minds in the community and that will tease us into
59:39
our next episode, which will involve maybe the shadiest of Martin's. That is
59:46
for you guys to decide, well, shady, horny, you name it.
59:55
It's gonna be a very It's gonna be a very hot and spicy show
1:00:00
next week, folks. That's all we can tell you. Yes, yes,
1:00:02
it will be. Uh there's a lot of sex capades going on here
1:00:07
mm hmm. And if you do want to see our Lancer presentation, which
1:00:15
touches on a lot of this that is available at locals, the link will
1:00:21
be under here and if you want to get a head start on that.
1:00:25
But yes, next week will be absolutely fire. And we did not spend
1:00:34
three hours on a Friday night and have my girlfriend get mad at me for
1:00:37
no reason. We are committed. We appreciate everyone's support and super chats and
1:00:45
superstickers whatever that local and but I urge you if to go to locals,
1:00:54
because that's where we can have discussions where we don't have to you know,
1:00:59
use acronyms or not say certain words and really get somewhere and we want,
1:01:07
we want your help and to help us and figure out this. You know,
1:01:14
mystery wrapping up puzzle on Enigma whatever it is. Yeah, I don't
1:01:19
think you said that right, No, I didn't for sure, but you
1:01:23
already said it, so I didn't want to repeat. I know. And
1:01:28
look, folks, if you'd like to help support the show and get some
1:01:30
cool merch, we've got some new designs added to the shop, such as
1:01:35
this one Deep State, Patsy Lee, Harvey Oswald, and of course our
1:01:42
lovable Joe Barelli shirt Joey Scars the lone Guming podcasting there on his little scooter
1:01:50
Lancer, Dallas, Texas, twenty twenty three, marking the occasion. It's
1:01:54
a beautiful design that looks awesome on a black T shirt. Yes, I'm
1:02:02
waiting for mine still, mister you are? Yeah. I mean, if
1:02:10
there's going to be merch dedicated to my failures, I think I should at
1:02:15
least get it. Well, you know, Christmas is coming, Joey.
1:02:17
Oh yeah, Christmas is coming. Yes it is. And you can also
1:02:23
find the link to the merch in the description here as well. And like
1:02:29
I just said, Christmas is coming. Folks, tell people what you want,
1:02:31
send them the links, say I want that shirt. There's all kinds
1:02:36
of good designs. That Jack Ruby one is up. He would just eat
1:02:38
them and stuff as well. And I am actually going to order myself a
1:02:44
hat that says that that I can wear here on the show and wrap it.
1:02:49
I love it. Yeah, it is a really cool one. It
1:02:52
is. Yeah, we're approaching an hour here, so I just want to
1:03:00
thank everyone for joining, for their support, for everyone that's sent in super
1:03:06
chats and stickers, and I will let the Big Bad Bob close us out.
1:03:12
Yeah, once again, thanks for joining us, folks. Next week,
1:03:15
Like I said, it's gonna be a spicy one. You're not gonna
1:03:17
want to miss it. But for this one to sixty six and for Joe
1:03:22
BURRELLI these are your boys out. Everyone getting a wooded lady before Moechable show.
1:04:30
Don't the three James and Julie, Joe and Jack after that Joe Wille
1:05:04
and Jean and Jackie tell them Jim and shot me. Well now so with
1:05:14
games, my jam and fault in the picture. He hope you don't tell
1:05:18
you lock up some choppin over by your job. Peace. Peace, See
1:05:36
you next time, guys. Thank you again,